# Westminster crabbing



## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Just noting something that bugged me while watching Westminster. In both the breed (Goldens and other sporting dogs) and group competitions, I watched dog after dog happily crabbing their way around the ring. Really??? If it's a handler thing, shouldn't competing at Westminster make you really on top of your game? If you can't gait your dog in a straight line, maybe someone else ought to be showing it at Westminster, right? If it's structural (as I know it was in many instances, seeing front and rear feet overlapping like a game of patty-cake), then how do dogs with those kinds of problems (over-angulated rears and straight fronts) make it that far?

It just blew me away, how many dogs I saw doing that. I guess I just expected better dogs at Westminster.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I think a lot of it is caused by the really tight leads so many handlers insist on, despite the fact that Goldens are supposed to be shown on a loose lead. A lot of the dogs are strung up, it forces their head to one side, and they sidewind as a result.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

Can I ask you what "crabbing" means? Not gaiting in a straight line? Thanks!


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## Loukia (Sep 20, 2014)

DanaRuns, I saw what you're referring to in terms of overlapping legs. It was bad enough with some dogs I saw (two in particular - not Goldens), that it sent me to my computer to check their clearances on OFA... and they weren't good! 

I know nothing about the world of dog shows. As a dog owner, I don't understand why a dog with structural problems would be chosen to represent the breed.


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## flatcoated (Feb 3, 2013)

Have to agree with Barb. There are a lot of natural movement flaws out there, but I think crabbing is more frequently a product of handler interference. You'd hope to see less of it at Westminster. Moving a sporting dog well and in balance on a loose lead takes skill, trust, and ongoing practice with the individual dog, and I would imagine that the noisy crowded environment throws an additional wrench into the equation. Seems probable that even a lot of people who typically do a good job of moving their dogs choke up a little more on the lead with all of that going on around them. Am sure it must be a stressful environment even for a lot of fairly seasoned dogs. Doesn't mean I wouldn't be upset about it if I was paying a pro for their expertise though, and I agree, it's disappointing to watch such a big show and see many dogs at less than their best.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

In another breed, I saw a well respected breeder/owner/handler that had won the breed in the group. I used to love watching her and her dogs 20 years ago. They both looked awful, but I am wondering if it was nerves or even her getting up there in years that made the dog look so bad the way he was stacked etc and the way she was running. I am told you are not supposed to notice the handler.


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## SunnynSey (Jan 17, 2015)

I was wondering about that too, I also couldn't get over the big puff of powder that came off the shih-tzu when she shook herself during the down and back in the BIS line up. Some things are hard not to notice.


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## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

This thread had me going to the Blue Book to see what they said about "crabbing" which they define as "going sideways like a crab". It comments "A dog may be forced to sidetrack because he is so short of body that his length of stride would cause rear feet to step upon the front feet. Some dogs with unbalanced musculature and/or poor footfall timing find sidetracking easier than traveling straight. Other dogs have become unbalanced, or habituated to moving wrongly, by training; for instance, always worked on the handler's left, and/or angling the head/neck and body to look up at the handler."

I did notice that so many of the Goldens seemed to be shown on a tight and relatively short leash but I'm sure the conditions are very challenging with unbelievable distractions. Having said that, I'd love to see more of the show dogs displaying more signs of having had some obedience training.


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## goldlover68 (Jun 17, 2013)

I am not a 'confirmation' guy, so my knowledge is limited. I do watch Westminster and other TV dog shows. I have attended a few local dog shows, just to see the dogs. But one comment....

As a field dog guy, I advocate the use of pinch type collars and e collars for training provided the person using them has had professional training. In many posts in the past on this site, I have been criticized regularly, by confirmation people for advocating the use of these tools. Yet, when I watch 'professional' handlers in the ring, many use a 'choke' type leads and literally hang the dog when heeling around the ring....seems hypocritical to me.....


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## Gwen (Aug 9, 2007)

How about Westminster enforcing breed standards???? I saw dogs in the BIS ring who had been dyed!!! (Just waiting for the hair dye companies to start using these dogs in their advertising) Not spouting here as I've been the dogs "before & after" Numerous breeds had extensive scissoring when the breed standard disallows it. Carved dogs - chow?????? Lame dogs earning group placements when the dog should have been excused?????

As long as this is allowed at the "top" dog show, it will continue. Judges, get some nerve to set things right!


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

Gwen said:


> How about Westminster enforcing breed standards???? I saw dogs in the BIS ring who had been dyed!!! (Just waiting for the hair dye companies to start using these dogs in their advertising) Not spouting here as I've been the dogs "before & after" Numerous breeds had extensive scissoring when the breed standard disallows it. Carved dogs - chow?????? Lame dogs earning group placements when the dog should have been excused?????
> 
> As long as this is allowed at the "top" dog show, it will continue. Judges, get some nerve to set things right!


Is it obvious that they had been dyed? Is there anyway the judge can tell?


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

I do think it is a handler thing for the crabbing action. So often show dogs have no obedience training, so they never learn to walk on a loose leash. So I think it's a combination of an unfamiliar pro handler, a dog never trained to move on a loose leash, and a small ring that the goldens were shown in. Small rings are my personal pet peeve. 

Dye on show dogs is very common. Fur, noses, etc. get dyed. The judges should not accept it and should DQ for it. AKC has it in their rules to not allow it. It should be stopped. But there are now so many companies that thrive on selling show people products to enhance coats and pigments. People buy those products hoping to improve their dog's chances in the ring. Some breeds it's so expected now, that you wouldn't know what that dog looked like without the "help" those products give. For example chalking a sheltie. Do you know what one looks like without the help of chalk? It's gotten that bad.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

goldlover68 said:


> I am not a 'confirmation' guy, so my knowledge is limited. I do watch Westminster and other TV dog shows. I have attended a few local dog shows, just to see the dogs. But one comment....
> 
> As a field dog guy, I advocate the use of pinch type collars and e collars for training provided the person using them has had professional training. In many posts in the past on this site, I have been criticized regularly, by confirmation people for advocating the use of these tools. Yet, when I watch 'professional' handlers in the ring, many use a 'choke' type leads and literally hang the dog when heeling around the ring....seems hypocritical to me.....



Well that is just the thing. You can not group all "Conformation" people into a group of hating choke or ecollars. It is just not the case. Just because one shows in conformation does not mean they are all about positive reinforcement.


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## Bentman2 (Sep 30, 2013)

DanaRuns said:


> Just noting something that bugged me while watching Westminster. In both the breed (Goldens and other sporting dogs) and group competitions, I watched dog after dog happily crabbing their way around the ring. Really??? If it's a handler thing, shouldn't competing at Westminster make you really on top of your game? If you can't gait your dog in a straight line, maybe someone else ought to be showing it at Westminster, right? If it's structural (as I know it was in many instances, seeing front and rear feet overlapping like a game of patty-cake), then how do dogs with those kinds of problems (over-angulated rears and straight fronts) make it that far?
> 
> It just blew me away, how many dogs I saw doing that. I guess I just expected better dogs at Westminster.


Interesting that you would mention "structural" problems. How could a judge, that takes great pains in checking out the Golden's teeth, shoulders, hind quarters, etc, miss structural issues with the dog's gait? Does the judge not have a score sheet that he/she keeps on each dog that they judge? If gait problems exists, as a result of the leads, why would the handler not know that? Could that account for Golden's not winning BIS at Westminster in so long of time?


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Well for one... I noticed the dogs were not straight coming down and back. It is hard to gait a dog in a straight line with no line/mat to keep them on. So, the dogs and handlers were going everywhere. I think some of those dogs looked worse because they were going everywhere.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

goldlover68 said:


> I am not a 'confirmation' guy, so my knowledge is limited. I do watch Westminster and other TV dog shows. I have attended a few local dog shows, just to see the dogs. But one comment....
> 
> As a field dog guy, I advocate the use of pinch type collars and e collars for training provided the person using them has had professional training. In many posts in the past on this site, I have been criticized regularly, by confirmation people for advocating the use of these tools. Yet, when I watch 'professional' handlers in the ring, many use a 'choke' type leads and literally hang the dog when heeling around the ring....seems hypocritical to me.....


I missed this post. Sorry no go. Not all conformation people are all positive only trainers. I do field work and show my dog. All my goldens are e-collar conditioned as were probably all their parents. So sorry I'm not buying that argument. So many people in the show ring these days are interested in well rounded dogs and do a variety of activities with their dogs. Fieldwork is more popular than ever. 

By the way my show dog does pull in the ring annoyingly. But in the obedience ring she heels nicely off leash. In field work her off leash or on leash heeling is definitely a work in progress. Dogs are situational and will adjust according to where they are and what they are doing and who is handling them. An unfamiliar show ring pro handler may have only met the dog they are entering the ring with 2 minutes prior. The pro has to be a quick study determining how to handle the dog.


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## Carmel (Feb 9, 2015)

I thought right away while watching the Breed judging that the ring was way too small for the Goldens. It takes 5 to 6 long steps to get them into a good gait, and for a sporting group dog to compete I would have like to see them have a bigger ring. I didn't notice structural problems myself. Just felt sorry for the handlers trying to show a good gait in only room for about 10 steps. Just my opinion...


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## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

Certainly agree that dogs are situational but for most of the Goldens showing at Westminster haven't they been in the show ring a lot by the time they get there? Shouldn't they know exactly what the "down and back" is all about? I think I saw one handler luring the dog into the about turn. I guess it varies quite a bit but I thought that the dogs "on the circuit" stayed out with their handlers for a month or more at a time. My sister has a clumber that was invited to Westminster a few years ago and she said the handler wanted to have it for at least a month before the show.


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## Carmel (Feb 9, 2015)

goldlover68 said:


> I am not a 'confirmation' guy, so my knowledge is limited. I do watch Westminster and other TV dog shows. I have attended a few local dog shows, just to see the dogs. But one comment....
> 
> As a field dog guy, I advocate the use of pinch type collars and e collars for training provided the person using them has had professional training. In many posts in the past on this site, I have been criticized regularly, by confirmation people for advocating the use of these tools. Yet, when I watch 'professional' handlers in the ring, many use a 'choke' type leads and literally hang the dog when heeling around the ring....seems hypocritical to me.....


You are not allowed to use pinch collars on an AKC dogshow site. You can use choke chains for control as most do use. I really have to step in here to defend handlers. People that have never handled a dog at a dog show have NO idea how hard it is no matter how well your dog is trained. There are usually over 1000 intact dogs (including bitches in heat!) packed into a relatively small space. My Gabe is in the 180#s and when something gets him excited (like every other minute at a dog show!) it's virtually impossible to hold him if one doesn't know what they are doing. I have to watch his ears, his eyebrows, his body language to control him. There is no special collar or lead in the world that will hold that size dog if he wants to go. I wish I COULD use a pinch, they are really the most humane. If you don't believe me, put one around your arm and snap it, and then try a choke. So called "gentle leads" that go over a dog's snout cut off their air supply, which is really cruel. Anyway, I know a lot of the handlers that were at Westminster, and they are mostly a wonderful lot of people that REALLY REALLY care about not only their dogs, but their breed and the sport. Yes, some people may seem to over trim or over groom their dogs for big shows, but you can't blame them. Judges are not fooled by it at all anyway, it's just respectful to come with a clean beautifully groomed dog.


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## 2golddogs (Oct 19, 2009)

I just talked with a friend that showed her golden at Westminster. She said the ring was very small, one of the smaller rings in the building. Why they would give such a small ring to one of the bigger breed entries makes no sense.


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## Carmel (Feb 9, 2015)

TheZ's said:


> Certainly agree that dogs are situational but for most of the Goldens showing at Westminster haven't they been in the show ring a lot by the time they get there? Shouldn't they know exactly what the "down and back" is all about? I think I saw one handler luring the dog into the about turn. I guess it varies quite a bit but I thought that the dogs "on the circuit" stayed out with their handlers for a month or more at a time. My sister has a clumber that was invited to Westminster a few years ago and she said the handler wanted to have it for at least a month before the show.


From my own experience it really takes years of monthly showing to get a dog to 1) Like showing and 2) to be able to concentrate on his handler during all the excitement. We have to remember that the whole purpose is for a dog to be judged by his breed experts and peers on whether he or she meets or excels the standard of the breed for possible breeding purposes. Many of the dogs entered at Westminster are just normal pets that are being shown. Yes the top 5 of every breed are the top show dog's in their breed, and probably are going to show beautifully, because that's their job, but the rest that are entered can be anybody. A good kennel will keep the best of their dogs on the show circuit as a "special", and that dog or bitch is usually out there for a few years. But good kennels also get the Champion titles on ALL the dogs they breed, and those dogs have other jobs than just going from show to show, and they are hard to show because of that.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Good point about ALL the dogs/bitches being intact at a show. The chances are that a lot of the bitches are in heat. Let's face it conformation and tracking are the only 2 events we can participate in with a bitch in heat. And they are all very close to each other. I'm mean right up next to each other. It's hard. I try to leave my girl's pants on until the last possible moment, I want to give other handlers as much opportunity to avoid my girl in heat if they have a boy. But you so rarely see problems. In the Best of Breed ring boys are shown with girls. So a boy might be inches from a girl in heat. Can you imagine what kind of control that takes? Then you have tons of kids and food and people all milling about. Confusion and tension from people you can cut with a knife.

Then yes a very tiny ring on top of it! I hate small rings. I loved showing at golden national. My girl looks best when she is moving fast and far.

So this summer on weekends I'll be signing up for hunt tests on the same weekend as dog shows. If my girl is in heat I'll do the dog show. If not, the hunt test.


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## goldlover68 (Jun 17, 2013)

All,
I did not mean to imply that all Confirmation folks are 100% users of 'positive training'! What I was trying to put across, was that on this site, when I post something in a thread suggesting that using a pinch collar (if properly trained how to use it) is a technique that should be considered. I get a ton of responses, some not so nice, that this technique is bad! I know not everyone in confirmation feels this way, but some sure do. 

Also, for those of you that have not run in or watched a field event for retrievers....you can be sure that our dogs get real 'fired up' when coming up to the line. But we do not allow dogs in heat, to compete. And of course we cannot use e collars, pinch collars, or choke chains anywhere on the field.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Oh don't forget the little tiny thin choke chains we show them on so that we show their necks the best! My show dog rarely sees a flat collar so that she won't get a collar neck that takes weeks to go away. My girl can snap that choke chain collar if she wanted to. I've tried so many different show collar and leash combinations, oh my gosh I could fill a closet with them (don't tell my husband).


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## Carmel (Feb 9, 2015)

I think a pinch is the most humane for training. At least they can feel the correction and it gets their attention, which is what you want when they are pulling. They do not hurt at all. My first trainer made me put one around my bare neck and she snapped it hard when I first protested about one. (they LOOK scary!) I was amazed at how it felt. It certainly did not hurt. If you have a dog with long hair they are a lifesaver. I usually don't end up having to use mine after the puppy stage anyway. It really helps though to make them understand what you are asking of them.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I agree with Rita and Kelli (previous page) - I think the ring was small and the dogs were not being moved in a straight line. I think that was causing the movement to be off....

You can't completely blame the crabbing movement on tight leads, because most of the dogs I've seen shown are generally shown on a tight lead until they grow up a little and learn to gait on a loose lead. Not really about dogs in heat or anything like... it's the excitement of being in a ring with a huge crowd of people outside the ring hooting and hollering. Coming from the obedience side of things, it's the type of thing I would not contemplate exposing a young dog to - and a lot of people in obedience skip shows that they don't think their well-trained dogs can handle (and that may be just a fraction of the crazy stuff outside a conformation ring at a big show).

More than one professional handler giving me help early on last year corrected my leash handling with Bertie, telling me to keep the collar tight up under his jaw as opposed to letting it loose (which caused him to take his lead and jump around for joy out there as opposed to gaiting). 

I heard a golden handler/breeder/judge say that yes, you want the dogs to be shown on loose leads.... but with a young active breed - you also want them to look good out there and move well. 

Other thing about prongs - I use prongs on obedience dogs and it is not the thing to use with conformation dogs. You do not want dogs hanging back and heeling with you while being gaited. It doesn't show the correct movement - it might actually _cause_ crabbing (I've seen it in obedience). You want them to move out smoothly.

**** I did not see the hair dye, but I did see the limping dog get a placement in sporting....


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

TheZ's said:


> Certainly agree that dogs are situational but for most of the Goldens showing at Westminster haven't they been in the show ring a lot by the time they get there? Shouldn't they know exactly what the "down and back" is all about? I think I saw one handler luring the dog into the about turn. I guess it varies quite a bit but I thought that the dogs "on the circuit" stayed out with their handlers for a month or more at a time. My sister has a clumber that was invited to Westminster a few years ago and she said the handler wanted to have it for at least a month before the show.


Sometimes "luring" on the turn around is not about training, but to get the dog "up" in the ring. Gives them a little pick me up to finish it off.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Not all, or even most, of the problems can be attributed to small rings and handling errors. Seriously, there are a lot of champion show dogs out there with less than perfect structure. Over-angulated rears get rewarded. Straight fronts and short upper arms can result in a gait that looks "fancy" and gets rewarded. One sure fire way to see when a dog has structural problems is to notice on their side gait when their front and rear feet on the same side interfere with each other or "overlap" in the middle, which is crabbing, which in turn is the result of the dog compensating for not being balanced front to rear (though the same problem can be caused by the dog moving too fast, also). These are really common problems in Goldens everywhere. And even at Westminster. I was just surprised there was so much of it.


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## Loukia (Sep 20, 2014)

Bentman2 said:


> Interesting that you would mention "structural" problems. How could a judge, that takes great pains in checking out the Golden's teeth, shoulders, hind quarters, etc, miss structural issues with the dog's gait?


That's what I can't figure out! I know nothing about judging, so I can't weigh in with any knowledge. But, if I can tell that a dog's gait is so bad and stiff it sends me running to my computer to check the OFA data (that proved what I saw), how can a judge miss that? (The two dogs I'm talking about aren't Goldens.)


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

DanaRuns said:


> Not all, or even most, of the problems can be attributed to small rings and handling errors. Seriously, there are a lot of champion show dogs out there with less than perfect structure. Over-angulated rears get rewarded. Straight fronts and short upper arms can result in a gait that looks "fancy" and gets rewarded. One sure fire way to see when a dog has structural problems is to notice on their side gait when their front and rear feet on the same side interfere with each other or "overlap" in the middle, which is crabbing, which in turn is the result of the dog compensating for not being balanced front to rear (though the same problem can be caused by the dog moving too fast, also). These are really common problems in Goldens everywhere. And even at Westminster. I was just surprised there was so much of it.


No denying this. I was just stating a lot of dogs were all over the place for down and backs and I could not really judge the dog.


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## goldlover68 (Jun 17, 2013)

I have a question for you confirmation folks....watching dog shows, I notice that when heeling dogs around the ring in front of the judge, many handlers literally pull up on the lead so much that the dogs front feet barely touch the ground, others use almost a lose leash. Seems like those that put this pressure on the dogs, need to train the dogs better on lose leash heeling....??!!


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

i have the hardest time controlling my girl on a show leash/collar. She heels beautifully in an obedience competition. But in the show ring, she can tell that the little collar isn't going to do much. So she pulls horribly. Plus the crowd has an effect. Then on the out and back, as we are returning to the judge, the judge is either talking or making noises at the dog. The judge wants to see momentum and action and ears up! So the pulling is going to get really bad. The judge sometimes will have a toy or something in their hand to get the dog's attention. That makes the pulling on the leash really bad. It's a tiny collar and leash and sometimes it's all you can do to hang on with a dog excited to see the tiny the judge has. It's a fine line, you want your dog to have that "look" as they approach the judge, but you also need to control the dog. And you don't want to diminish your dog's excitement. 

Does that make sense?


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## Carmel (Feb 9, 2015)

goldlover68 said:


> I have a question for you confirmation folks....watching dog shows, I notice that when heeling dogs around the ring in front of the judge, many handlers literally pull up on the lead so much that the dogs front feet barely touch the ground, others use almost a lose leash. Seems like those that put this pressure on the dogs, need to train the dogs better on lose leash heeling....??!!


:uhoh: LOL I've never had to worry about that, but it's true I do try to work with my Gabe a lot on going straight on a leash, AND trying to get him into a gait in just a few steps. My big problem with him is to get him to put his head up, so as you can see I basically need to engage with him the whole time. Here (sorry about the quality) was a time I considered he did really well, as you can see his head is up and his tail is straight out behind him. If the head and tail are not in the right position it can really throw off the topline while they are moving.


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## goldlover68 (Jun 17, 2013)




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## 3 goldens (Sep 30, 2005)

I have never had anything to do with dog shows other than sit in my easy chair and watch them. I have also noticed that some of the poor dogs look like they are about to be hung. I have no idea what kind of gait they are suppose to use, etc. Some are impossible. Take the Peke--it looks like a rolling dust mop being drug across the floor. So I can't really comment on crabbing or anything other odd thing other than the "string 'em up" look.

I grew up with quail dogs and help my Dad train many English Setters and pointers. And we had the best dogs in the county. When my son got a golden for a duck dog back in '94, I had never worked with a duck dog, but trained him and at 6 months he was briging in dugs and never ruffled a feather even on a live one. 

My pet peeve with the shows are having cockers in three color groups. If they can hae them shown in the all black group, the solid color other than black and the multicolored , why can't they have the English Setters and points show in white/black, white/liver, white/gold (orange some call it). They are three distinct colors.

It is my understanding that 15" Beagle can have puppies and one doesn't grow as big and can been shown as a 13" while his brother can ben shown as a 15". Is this correct. I do believe in showing distinct breeds apart, not just color or size. In that case, it should apply to all breeds who come in different colors. and that would just be to many dogs.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Yes there are 2 difference sizes for beagles and yes they can come from the same litter. They are shown as 2 different dogs. In the future the breed may split enough to be truly 2 different breeds. Many breeds show their different colors together. Thankfully we don't have that.

One thing you all might not be aware of is, there are many more showing classes available at national specialties depending on the breed. For goldens we add gundog classes. Those are split up by field trial **, ***, hunt test SH, MH. We also at golden national have gundog sweeps which add all the above classes plus JH. In sweeps dogs with a championship are shown along side those without championships. Showing in the gundog classes or sweeps is a lot of fun.


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## SwimDog (Sep 28, 2014)

SLightly off topic: I've been told that FCI had./will soon have a rule change that requires show dogs in that program to be on a loose leash - specifically so the judge can better evaluate the dog's true movement compared to the gait/movement created when the head is up/lead tight.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

The only FCI shows in the US are in Puerto Rico.


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## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

3 goldens said:


> Take the Peke--it looks like a rolling dust mop being drug across the floor.


This made me smile. I've often thought the same thing about some of the smaller, hairier breeds. And the Komindor (sp?), who could live with that, you can't even see it's eyes and when it shakes off it's like a gigantic string mop being shaken out. Hope I haven't offended anyone. There really does seem to be something in the dog world for everyone.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

One thing to remember on the actions of the dogs in the ring, there is BAIT all over that floor. Do you know how hard it is to control a dog when there is wonderful bait all over? People use the most wonderful stuff for bait. It's steak and chicken and liver. The dogs go crazy for a reason. So there you are trying to do a nice go around and your dog smells some steak on the floor in the next ring 5' away. Holy cow! It's really hard to control them. So then you are coming back into the line up with the other dogs, you're coming up behind another dog and the handler throws a piece of meat that your dog sees! Wow! It can be chaos out there in the ring. I try to bring better bait than what hopefully my dog will smell to keep her attention on me, but it's hard. So yes a tight lead is going to be needed at times to keep your dog on track with the task at hand.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

2golddogs said:


> I just talked with a friend that showed her golden at Westminster. She said the ring was very small, one of the smaller rings in the building. Why they would give such a small ring to one of the bigger breed entries makes no sense.



Thank you for sharing this bit. I sat and watched almost all of the Goldens live streaming and my first thought when they started moving them out was that the ring seemed tiny. Makes no sense.


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## goldlover68 (Jun 17, 2013)

Alaska7133 said:


> One thing to remember on the actions of the dogs in the ring, there is BAIT all over that floor. Do you know how hard it is to control a dog when there is wonderful bait all over? People use the most wonderful stuff for bait. It's steak and chicken and liver. The dogs go crazy for a reason. So there you are trying to do a nice go around and your dog smells some steak on the floor in the next ring 5' away. Holy cow! It's really hard to control them. So then you are coming back into the line up with the other dogs, you're coming up behind another dog and the handler throws a piece of meat that your dog sees! Wow! It can be chaos out there in the ring. I try to bring better bait than what hopefully my dog will smell to keep her attention on me, but it's hard. So yes a tight lead is going to be needed at times to keep your dog on track with the task at hand.


I understand from the shows I have watched! Interesting in Field Tests we have a similar challenge. When approaching the line to begin the test the dog can not have a collar, no lead at all! We also have to stop in a small blind 2 or 3 times while wait for the dogs ahead of us to finish the tests. Of course with the spectators, dogs, and duck sent all over our high powered retrievers are all fired up to go. Yet if they move out of the heel position or move out to hunt prior to our command...they are disqualified. We share you challenge and understand the level of training necessary. Key point here is you are not alone.....we all have our challenges....with our pups!


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## Gwen (Aug 9, 2007)

cubbysan said:


> Is it obvious that they had been dyed? Is there anyway the judge can tell?


All the judges have to do is "LOOK" as it is very obvious. Most of these judges @ Westminster have seen these top dogs before & should be able to notice the difference. If I can tell as an observer, a judge with their hands on the dogs should be able to notice the "Miss Clairol" job.


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## Gwen (Aug 9, 2007)

TheZ's said:


> This made me smile. I've often thought the same thing about some of the smaller, hairier breeds. And the Komindor (sp?), who could live with that, you can't even see it's eyes and when it shakes off it's like a gigantic string mop being shaken out. Hope I haven't offended anyone. There really does seem to be something in the dog world for everyone.


As a golden person, I think that everyone of us should have a peke to as a "Swiffer" to remove the hair under beds, etc. They look like a giant, slow moving swiffer. lol


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## goldlover68 (Jun 17, 2013)

Gwen said:


> As a golden person, I think that everyone of us should have a peke to as a "Swiffer" to remove the hair under beds, etc. They look like a giant, slow moving swiffer. lol


LOL...now that's a plan!


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Several years ago, in a match, I was showing against the bitch who won in the Open class,at Westminster this year...that bitch had gorgeous side,gait...not evident from that ring...too small...


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Personally I think a lot of the movement issues were just the camera angle. They shot all the group judging at an angle on the down and back which is never flattering for any dog.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

Gwen said:


> All the judges have to do is "LOOK" as it is very obvious. Most of these judges @ Westminster have seen these top dogs before & should be able to notice the difference. If I can tell as an observer, a judge with their hands on the dogs should be able to notice the "Miss Clairol" job.


I was doing some googling, and there are some breeds that even use hair extensions!


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