# Mercy Backsliding with Down Stay



## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

Hello Folks. Mercy has been backsliding when it comes to the down stay. She had successfully stayed down for 20 seconds after willingly downing on command. Now she is being resistant and stubborn when it comes to the down stay and even just the down. This week especially tonight, Mercy has not stayed down for more than a few seconds. Now she immediately gets up and walks away after I put her into a down. I am practicing these down stays as part of her AKC S.T.A.R. puppy homework. After willingly downing and staying, she had regressed to needing food a couple of days ago to now not downing even with a food lure. :no: I have had to for the first time push her elbows out to position her into a down only for her to immediately get up again. I think she is testing me. I found that it was taking over a half hour just on this single exercise with my consistently commanding her into a down over and over and over again. I need to be able to get over this hump. I sent an e-mail to our class trainer to let her know what was gong on. Any body else had a problem with your golden pup being stubborn during training exercises?


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## penparson (Sep 19, 2010)

She hasn't even hit the teenage stage yet! Wakefield conveniently forgot everything he had learned for about six months. He's on the other side of it now, thankfully. You'll probably have some ups and downs for a while.


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## my4goldens (Jan 21, 2009)

I was going to ask how old she is, but see she is only 4 1/2 months old. Be patient with her, she is just a baby. And she isn't testing you, she may be feeling stress, she may not understand completely what you want, she may be shutting down from too much too soon. Take a couple of steps back in your training, make your training sessions a party for her, short, fun, lots of praise and treats. If she messes up, so what. The down command is a hard one for puppies, and like I said, she is still very young.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> I found that it was taking over a half hour just on this single exercise with my consistently commanding her into a down over and over and over again.


This sounds like too much drilling time on something that might be an 'uncomfortable' thing for your pup. Downs are really tough to train in excitable places or stressful situations precisely because it is a submissive position for them. 

The three good reps and moving on to something else plan is ideal for teaching new things, and reinforcing those learned skills. 

The other thing is never repeat a command twice.

And then when a dog fails a couple times at a higher level of expectation, you back off to the previous level. 

^^^ You probably know all this, but it something to keep in mind. And don't stress out too much. She will do fine.  

To train downs that are easy to wean off the treats, tuck a treat between your thumb and the palm of your hand. And the downward sweep to the floor between your dog's paws is a hand signal you will always use in obedience. As the food goes away, the hand signal will remain a consistent. 

I also avoid grabbing legs simply because it's adding to the discomfort of what is already and uncomfortable position for the dog. If anything, I would put gentle pressure on her shoulders the same time you are giving her the hand signal (treat tucked under your thumb) and bringing her down to the floor. 

For training stays too - after you can get her comfortable in the down position, you can start training her to roll on a hip vs the sphyinx down. This by gently touching her hip with your left hand and immediately rewarding when she rolls it. 

Don't rush the stay. Don't stand up until she's holding a solid stay with you kneeling there. Don't pivot in front unless she's holding a solid stay with you standing at her side. Don't take a single step until she's holding a solid stay with you in front. And so forth.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

She's just a baby, she's not being stubborn she's being a puppy. She just needs more time and practice. You will have months and months of practice, and then you still won't be done training. Training is everyday for life, and it will go back and forth, great work for a while and then they act like they have forgotten everything they knew. But Mercy is much too young to expect real consistency. Like your 3 yr old son, you will have to repeat, repeat, repeat, re-teach, re-teach, re-teach. Lighten up for both your sakes and just enjoy her.

I think this is totally normal for a puppy her age. She is not testing you, puppies don't know that concept. 

One tip though, don't keep repeating the command. Say it once, then lure her into position, but don't keep repeating the command. If you keep repeating the command she will learn she doesn't have to do the action when you say.


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## inge (Sep 20, 2009)

One thing I learned with Tess, is that it is useless to stay with something for a long time if it just doesn't work...I would never repeat something for half an hour. Better for me, and better for her to go to something easy that she knows, set her up for success a couple of times and leave it at that. Next time better. She is four months old, you want the training to be fun, not something you get frustrated about, which of course she feels, too. Take it easy....


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

Maybe she needs a day off?- stay takes a lot of self-control - duration has to be built slowly, and variably (3 seconds, 5 seconds, 3 seconds, 7 seconds,if she can manage, then back to 3 seconds). If she is breaks the stay a couple times in a row or 2 of 5 tries - you are asking too much. 
There are days when I can't get my 4 1/2 year old golden to 'down' on command (most of the time he will drop like a rock) - so I wait for it. He will sit, hang his head, look this way, look that way, look at me, for 'eons' - wishing for all the world he was somewhere else, he knows he is not going anywhere - but I wait (as long as it takes), once he is 'down', I let him know that is exactly what I wanted - party, praise, and release. At 41/2 years it is fair to call it 'stubborn' - 4 months - plain tired/bored of the 'game' or the expectations are too high - she is a puppy .


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

Thank you all for your responses! I know I do need to lighten up! The only reason why I was concerned was because of Mercy having previous success with the down stay. I will try for a few seconds again. I know, I should not have kept going for a half hour!:doh: I just hope I have not caused her to unlearn what she has already done so well. I do want to make it happy for her and it is always my goal to be very patient with her. I was not in the best of mood yesterday. We were having a heat wave and my energy was lower than usual. My patience is more tried on days when I have lower energy or am more moody. I have to overcome that. The AKC S.T.A.R. puppy homework is asking for a sit stay and down stay for up to 20 seconds. I started off with 5 seconds (a few weeks ago when the homework asked for this), then 10 seconds, then 15 and then finally 20. She did wonderfully! I will talk to my teacher today in class.


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## BriGuy (Aug 31, 2010)

MercyMom said:


> I started off with 5 seconds (a few weeks ago when the homework asked for this), then 10 seconds, then 15 and then finally 20. She did wonderfully! I will talk to my teacher today in class.


Maybe try to vary the timing too. Even if she is perfect for 10 seconds, occasionally treat and release her after only 5. Keep her guessing.


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## inge (Sep 20, 2009)

You know, maybe your trainer wants a bit much...? I just looked at the requirements for passing the A.K.C.star puppy test, and it says that the owner can lure the dog into a down, but it doesn't say anything about a 20 seconds stay...


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

MercyMom said:


> Thank you all for your responses! I know I do need to lighten up! The only reason why I was concerned was because of Mercy having previous success with the down stay. I will try for a few seconds again. I know, I should not have kept going for a half hour!:doh: I just hope I have not caused her to unlearn what she has already done so well. I do want to make it happy for her and it is always my goal to be very patient with her. I was not in the best of mood yesterday. We were having a heat wave and my energy was lower than usual. My patience is more tried on days when I have lower energy or am more moody. I have to overcome that. The AKC S.T.A.R. puppy homework is asking for a sit stay and down stay for up to 20 seconds. I started off with 5 seconds (a few weeks ago when the homework asked for this), then 10 seconds, then 15 and then finally 20. She did wonderfully! I will talk to my teacher today in class.


For future reference: If you are not 'up' for it, practice things she knows well or don't train at all - a 'bad' training session leading to frustration/anger (in you) is far worse for her than no training session. Mercy will pick up on your stress/distress and become anxious herself - she has no idea why you are 'upset' with her - just that you are -hence her inability to 'comply'.


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## Jige (Mar 17, 2011)

Remeber with dog training it is 2 steps forward one step back. They have their good days and theri bad days just like we do.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

*Mercy still having problems with down stay*

Mercy is still having problems with downing voluntarily on command. I am only telling her once now, so she wont think she can get away with not downing. Then if she doesn't down on her own, I either use a treat or slide out her elbows, or a combination of both. I am trying to practice her down stay among many other commands. She does most other things marvelously. We have only two more weeks until graduation of her Basic Obedience Class. After putting her into a down when I tell her to stay, she immediately gets up. If I use a food lure, she bounces back up after she finishes eating it. I will have to tell the teachers that she needs extra help. Is any other trick to get her to down on command? Maybe I will use high value treats and enforce her stay before she can have them. I know her being more motivated and happily focused on me will help.


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

When teaching stay - remember to reward while she is holding the stay, not after she is released. She may be breaking the stay in anticipation of the reward. 
To build duration it needs to be done slowly. Cue your dog to down, reward the down, cue her to stay. Reward frequently at first while she is holding the stay, if she breaks at 20 seconds, release her at 10, keep the release low key and do not reward when she is released. Repeat asking her to hold the stay for 5 seconds, again rewarding while she holds it, no reward after the release cue is given. Alternate between longer stays and shorter ones, don't practice too much at one time, three or four trials at a time is plenty, stay is hard for a dog- you don't want to frustrate her or yourself. Once she is 'holding the stay' well with frequent rewards slowly increase the time between the rewards.Also work on teaching her to generalize the stay, as you do with other commands.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

I am still working with Mercy to willingly obey the down command. She will down about 50% now, so we still need more practice. There is only one more week until the CGC test. I am praying hard that Mercy will at least down during the test.


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## Max's Dad (Apr 23, 2012)

The "down" command is also Max's "Achilles Heel". Sometimes I have to lure him with a treat, although recently he has been doing better. I am sure Mercy will do fine on the CGC. I think only one down is required. I believe the stay can be either down or sit. Good luck.


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