# The future of US field trials



## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Have we gone too far? Have field trials become so amazingly difficult that unless the dog is trained full time every day, that we can no longer compete? I know this is why NAHRA was started in 1983 and created hunt tests, to give an option to field trials that were highly competitive even back then. Now 33 years later we have raised the bar so high that it seems like the owner-handler may very well become a thing of the past. Just like in the show ring, we see pros become the handler that wins, not the owner-handler. When I read derbies with 500 yard marks (over 1/4 mile), I know we have gone too far. What can a judge possibly learn about a dog's ability when they need to make the first series of a derby field trial 500 yards that can't be learned in a 200 yard distance? There are plenty of creative ways that judges can learn about a dog's marking ability, distance being only one of them. Here in Alaska our field trial game is drying up. We have only one full time pro in state now, and he's planning on going to Texas this winter. So we will shortly have no year round pro in Alaska. Our counts for field trials are so small. On our June trials, we will have 2 Open field trials that will have 17 and 15 dogs respectively and 4 and 9 dogs in the Qualifying field trials. With those low numbers we can't keep going in Alaska. All the serious field trialers up here send their dogs to the winter to a pro. The average cost of a pro is $750/month not including food, flying them to the states, vet, entry fees, etc. Then I look at how hard field trials are, even at the derby level and wonder what the future of the game will be? Field trials have always been difficult, but are we upping the ante so high that it's unrealistic to attempt to compete? P.S. for those that don't know, dogs can only compete in a derby field trial until they are 24 months old.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

I've never seen a Derby with a 500 yard mark. 

The Open is a thing all unto itself. What you see in it is a reflection of the quality of the dogs entered.

The Qual and Am are not that far out of reach. If you have a Good young Master dog, they are not out of reach.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Swampcollie, you might want to read MOP's posting from the May 2016 training. Her posting is 500 yards. Looking at the photos, I believe her. I have heard the same thing from others in larger derbies that the judges are going that far.


I do think it also depends on where you are running your dog. In small venues like mine, we are happy to have 10 dogs in a derby. The judges do back flips to keep as many dogs in them as possible through each series. 


MOP, you are in the derby game right now, what do you think about derbies now? Are we going too far? Your dog has done well in the derby game!


Last weekend at our club picnic, I was super happy that my puppy easily ran the master marks (as singles). But there is a world of distance between master marks and 500 yard derby marks.


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

Nope, I know for a fact it was 500 plus yards. I had heard rumblings in the gallery it was over 500 yards. When I got up to the line the judges were very friendly and this one judge was very friendly and telling me all of this stuff. He knew I was nervous and said after Proof picked up his first bird, "look at that you guys look like pros. He just nailed that mark and it was over 500 yards away. You should be feeling pretty happy right now." So I knew at that point that the mark really was 500 yards away. 

This was NOT the first derby that Proof has run with a 500 yard mark. In fact, this might be the third. I know there was a water memory bird (not even a single) that was 525 yards away but apparently because it was squared entry and basically straight on exit on to the bird it wasn't as bad. No angles to hold and not running a tight hip pocket to a holding flyer station blind. I think that this other Mark he ran on land was about 500 yards if not then at least 450 yards away. And that was a semi retired gun. There have bee retired guns in derbies down here. And the last derby proof placed on, the third series long bird...get this....YOU COULD NEVER SEE the gun at the line!!! Everyone was freaking out. The dogs had no gunner to mark off of on this water mark they only were looking out and would seethe arc and landing of the bird. And the short gun was standing out in their faces so getting to look out long at nothing was tough. Now that is all fine in a master test that the marks are 100 yards away but these marks are 300 yards with 100 yard plus swims. 

From what I've been told, and this is coming from people in the know, that derbies have gotten super ultra competitive. I've also been told its because of the pros that this has happened. I had a judge tell me that he has to make the tests harder when he knows that he has the Baker dogs coming. He has to make them hard so he can judge those dogs against each other. That often times leaves everyone else in the dust. 

There have been a lot of dogs that make better Q dogs than derby dogs. They do not mark as well but are good conceptually. Derbies are so strong marking abilities that these dogs really can't hang but get them in a Q where a lot of the good marking dogs now have to run blinds and they often will do very well. Their blind work is better. So now the derbies are off the charts hard. 

And yes, Stacey, to be competitive in derbies down here in the south you do have to train at least 5 days a week. And its really tough for goldens as they don't usually mature very well until they are around 2 so getting them to derby level at a very early age is hard. Not to mention that it makes it tough for a golden to be a top derby dog. It takes very special goldens I think, for derbies. one that is mature enough to handle the pressure and mania of the tests. I'm barely sliding by with Proof. He jumped HIGHER than my head on Friday when he was heeling backwards walking to the mat. He was so amped up and walked ahead and when I said heel he literally jumped backwards higher than my head. And what was sad, he never touched me and he fell perfectly into place. But really he is just out of his mind with excitement. I've only seen five goldens run with Proof. All of them were like crack heads. Couldn't control themselves. Proof and this other golden were the only two that I saw actually mark birds. The others wouldn't stop moving their heads all around. Its a tough sport. 

And you know I'm around hot and heavy lab players in the sport every day. I'm learning quite a bit. These pedigrees are CRAZY and they have their picks of Fc's. Goldens don't. I mean, proof ran a derby this weekend with three dogs out of the same litter that were born to NFC AFC father and an FC/AFC mother. I mean my GOSH! We have so few pickings in that area. The labs are just getting stronger and stronger.


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

Wow, I have a ton of thoughts at the moment about all that's been said ... and I'll forget most of them before I get them typed.

500 yard marks happen, as stated by Proof's person ... but they are not particularly common. I don't run in the "Baker Circuit" (soon to be referred to as the "MOP Circuit"), but I run in a pretty competitive region and in the 12 - 15 Derbies I ran a couple of years ago, I only ran one 500 yard mark. 

Unfortunately, Derbies (and Quals) don't always get the best judges (hey, I probably shouldn't say that because I judged a Qual last weekend!). It takes thought, experience and decent grounds to put up a really strong set of marks without resorting to tricks or distance.

It is NOT EASY to run any field trial stake successfully, Derby, Qual, Am or Open. But an amateur CAN do it. Even an amateur with a full time (40+ hours of work per week) can do it; however, that amateur probably has no other hobbies ... you gotta be good with that ... personally, I am. 

I also believe that the amateur trainer must get satisfaction with training and making his/her dog better ... ribbons should not be all that makes the amateur trainer happy.

FTGoldens


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

Oh yeah, when you beat the pros' dogs ... HOLY COW, HOW GREAT THAT FEELS!!!
FTGoldens


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

FTGoldens said:


> Even an amateur with a full time (40+ hours of work per week) can do it; however, that amateur probably has no other hobbies ... you gotta be good with that ... personally, I am.
> 
> I also believe that the amateur trainer must get satisfaction with training and making his/her dog better ... ribbons should not be all that makes the amateur trainer happy.
> 
> FTGoldens


This is so true. People always ask Jason what is his secret and he says hard work. Working everyday from sun up to sun down. And he told me before I started day training that I had to give it my all if I wanted to get Proof trained. I take care of all my important things in life, family first, but after that its only dog. If we aren't training we are with dog people now or training wth dog people elsewhere. 

And the ribbon statement is truth. This sport is more training than anything else. And loss. ha ha. training and loss with an occasional awesome win against the pros!! I'm very fortunate to have a dog that can play these games right now. 

And down here in the "baker" circuit, there is so many pros clustered together its frustrating. This past TN derby was nuts. I enjoyed watching Ledford and Al Arthur run derby dogs but I just wish it wasn't in Proof's derby! ha!


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

MOP & FT what could the judges do to make derbies more difficult without adding such great distances? There has to be another way than just running huge lengths, right?


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

Stacey the lengths aren't really that big of a deal. Most of the dogs do just fine on those. Most have a hunt when they get to the area but nothing bad. 

The bloodbath derby we ran about a month ago was the nuttiest test ever. I ran with the judge this past weekend and we were talking about it joking cause it was almost comical how many dogs dropped themselves. But that test was completely straightforward. Nothing contrary. Nothing hidden. Distances, were about 350 or more memory and 300 short bird. The water wasn't so much swimming, maybe 75 yards. So you see, distance was NOT involved in this bloodbath. It was lots of corners and points the dogs had to not cheat to stay on the perfect angle. If they did not hold their angles getting out of the water then the contours of the land from squaring the water led them straight behind a gun that has disappeared from sight while they run up this hill. Since they can't see him and they squared the water the dog is so far behind the gun that they can't even get in front of the gun if they want to when they finally see him. And what was interesting about that line to the gun? If they just keep their angle exiting the water they will just run straight up the hill to the bird! No big deal. It was one of those marks that you really don't know what the land will do until many dogs run it. 
Second memory bird was the same angle down the hill into the water but this time they had to swim to a corner of a point and then from their get back in and swim to the corner of the pond and that led them right to where they needed to be even if they couldn't see the gun. They just keep running and they will see the gun and he was in a corner so backsliding wasn't as easy (though a few did it.) If they didn't keep the angle up that water and squared the exit they ended back up on the old fall side of the hill and every.single.dog ran to the old fall that did that. A few that did get all the way up the pond the right way didn't carry their angle up the hill long enough to see the gun and fell behind him and back to the old fall.
So the answer to your question is that distances are not to be feared stacy. I've seen Proof FRONT FOOT so many of these far distances. What you need to fear is holding angles, fighting suction, ect. You can see that is the real culprit for these dogs.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

I think the biggest hurdle to an amateur's success, besides the time commitment inherent to all field work, is know-how. 
It takes just as long to throw a 50 yard mark as it does a 500 yard mark.
Most people have the land available to them that can be used for training if they look hard enough.
Most well bred retrievers are physically capable of doing the work.
But HOW you train them? What to do when things go wrong? How to develop a dog with the confidence to do it? What setups will help them learn concepts? THAT is the limiting factor. Unless you are incredibly fortunate to hook up with a successful pro and/or a team of experienced amateurs, you are shooting black cats in the dark. Even then, things will always go wrong and you just have to be a good dog trainer to figure out what is going to work. Or you will not know what you don't know, and will miss huge concepts and themes that you don't even realize until you start trialing.
I am frustrated by what I don't know. But on the flip side I am more knowledgeable now than I was six months ago, a year ago, three years ago, five years ago. It's always a learning curve, hopefully we follow it in the right direction.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

I've had the opportunity to train with an old field trialer a few times lately. He's in his mid-80's and ran his first field trial in 1972. He no longer uses an e-collar, instead he uses a long line. He said he overused the collar in the past and so now he's using the long line. He's 85 years old and now he's trying a technique he hasn't used for decades. I want to be that person. I want to be the one that will always try something new and different or trying something from the past in a new way. With every dog I've learned something new. I hope I get better, but I know I've got a long way to go. 

Going back to that old field trialer, I watched him run a derby with an 11 month old pup last summer. That pup did very well. She didn't finish all 4 series, but for a young dog I was impressed. I hope that when I'm 85, I'm still out there still training dogs and having fun. The old guy is in a derby on June 5. I've got my fingers crossed for him. It's the last derby his girl will be able to run. And judging by the old guy and his health, it will probably be his last one too. As long as he's been doing this, he still has the same fears we all do. He still worries about how his dog will perform.


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

What Anney was saying is true. Its so hard to know all that you need to know and often it takes the test to show you what you are lacking on. Yesterday another day trainer was telling me how important it is to know how your dog turns into a blind. I know that its important but I'm too inexperienced to effectively utilize the information right now. 
And confidence is a major playing factor. If the dog isn't confident enough he won't go. Especially on water. So many factors. There are goldens that are capable of this game, but I think that the dog needs to be on the training train at 6 months and puppy prepped for field until then with the future in mind the whole time. Golden owners have to realize that goldens can be trained with labs and can handle intense training as long as it is smart intense training.


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

I just wanted to add, I don't think that goldens are incapable of this sport. I am just speaking on what I've witnessed down in my very small portion of the derby world. I believe goldens are good markers in general. I think that the line manners and the focus are harder to achieve on a golden before 24 months and that makes them less competitive in the derby. BUT I believe that there are a group of like minded people in the field venue right now that are working very hard at breeding quality field goldens built with the characteristics needed to play this game. 

On Friday one of the judges was talking about how slow goldens generally are and he has a very hard time with that during training or a trial. He has a rough time at training especially and tries to avoid training with goldens because of this. He said he thinks goldens are the best upland hunters of any breed because of their nose and their pace. I agree that their noses are amazing but I like to pair it with all the other attributes it takes for them to be successful in a trial. Proof is an amazing marker. I didn't really get "it" until recently and watching the other dogs. Proof hammers about 90% of his marks. If he doesn't then it is due to conceptual corrections. About 2% of his marks are smart, but can be rather large hunts. I personally believe that it is his nose that gets him straight to that bird in the end. he marks it and is pretty good at taking a straight line to it but after hills, water, and wind, its hard to believe that he is marking with his eyes only is unrealistic. He has to be turning on the nose at the end and following it good. The same judge was also commenting on how much the golden nose gets them in trouble. That is where the training comes in. But who knows, dog marking is such a mystery to me. I wish I could be in their heads for a day.

Side note.....no matter what when you go to a all breed derby down here you will be the only golden or one of the only ones at the derby. You will hear EVERY person's opinion on goldens at your trial. If you have a nice golden you will hear, wow, I've never seen one do that before most of the time they do this....and they will go on and on about it. If your dog does something stupid, even if ALL the other labs do it, you will hear, goldens always do that, blah blah blah. And you will always hear I know a person that trains with a person that used to train goldens, ha ha ha.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Alaska7133 said:


> MOP & FT what could the judges do to make derbies more difficult without adding such great distances? There has to be another way than just running huge lengths, right?


Better bird placement.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Anney and MOP you are both right. Our dogs are capable of so much. I do also think goldens are excellent markers. Lucy can attest to that. She has a terrible habit of overrunning her marks and messing around checking stuff out, then running to her bird, picking it up and coming back when she wants too. The nose is definitely a golden attribute too. Which is almost embarrassing when we go to the spaniel tests and Lucy picks up birds that the spaniels missed. She can definitely out spaniel the spaniels.

I look at field trials as a super athletic event. Can golden retrievers enter field trials in greater numbers than they currently do? I don't know.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

How many people here are training to run field trials?
I will I ever run a FT? I don't know. I would like to try a Qual or maybe a Derby with a young dog at a GRCA National someday but I will admit I'm intimidated by them. I feel that I just don't know enough and that I struggle with trying to get enough concept in my training sessions. 
I really envy the grasp MOP has on training concepts.


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

ha, thanks, but I don't have much grasp on concepts. I have a bunch of stuff swirling around in my head and occasionally the lightbulb will go on.

I would totally run derbies. They are fun. My husband even loves them. I do not believe that derbies are like they are are here. 

If I were you, I'd do it the way I did. I went and ran the specialty derby to break the ice. I was among my fellow golden owners and lets face it, they are our peeps. We feel most at home together, ha ha. So you know everyone will help you out when you get there. Plus this past specialty derby, while challenging, was not very hard. It was straightforward. All you would do is point your dog at the birds and let him do all the work!


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

How long were the marks at the specialty derby?

I brought up the idea to Maisey's trainer and he didn't like it too much. He basically said if my ultimate goal is hunt tests, it would basically be a waste of time to train big and then have to scale down. He doesn't believe in running tests for fun.


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

I think around 150 to 275 ish. Not far at all. You'd be amazed at what your dog can see


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Vhuynh2 said:


> He doesn't believe in running tests for fun.


What an interesting phrase... I thought it was all about fun. :smile2:


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Alaska7133 said:


> What an interesting phrase... I thought it was all about fun. :smile2:


Well, he meant without a shot at a ribbon. I might still go for it but I also don't want to go in completely unprepared and to just release my dog at the line. I won't have the knowledge or the time to train for this.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

You'll have a shot at a ribbon. I believe you will. Have faith in yourself and your dog.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

I could use your optimism


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

I could use some of my own optimism sometimes! You're doing just fine. Molly came so far and she was your first dog at this. Now you have a new pup that was bred for this purpose, so you'll go so much farther this time. You've learned so much! There is always so much to learn. It's all a process. Look how far you have come!


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

Vhuynh2 said:


> I brought up the idea to Maisey's trainer and he didn't like it too much. He basically said if my ultimate goal is hunt tests, it would basically be a waste of time to train big and then have to scale down.


Pure poppycock!
Train the dog, to the best of the dog's ability...if your desire is to run hunt tests, you will have a well prepared dog ... maybe even an over-achiever.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

FTGoldens said:


> Pure poppycock!
> Train the dog, to the best of the dog's ability...if your desire is to run hunt tests, you will have a well prepared dog ... maybe even an over-achiever.


Very true. Set a goal and train towards that goal. If your purpose is FT then set your goal on Open and train towards that. A dog that can run a Qual or Am/Open FT will do just fine in a hunt test with very little adjustment. The other way is the opposite. 

As far as amateurs that work a job..... Unless you own the training land and it is in your back yard it is not that easy to make it into the Big Boys game. Two days out of seven is the most I can give to my hobby. Very little up to 100 yard blinds that I can do in my back yard.


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## krazybronco2 (May 21, 2015)

FTGoldens said:


> Pure poppycock!
> Train the dog, to the best of the dog's ability...if your desire is to run hunt tests, you will have a well prepared dog ... maybe even an over-achiever.


THIS!!! train to a higher standard than you want to run. i can say with training to a higher standard really really helped Belle and i this last fall. we ran a QAA trial and got a jam got our HRCH title and passed the only MH test we ran. but we worked our butts off with big marks and blinds. the master test we ran we had a double water blind and maybe 120yards to the longest but training on 300yard on the point off the point blinds it was a cake walk. and if i remember correctly i handled on 2 marks the first was in the QAA trial and it was a long down the shore with a retired gun (something we never trained on) and the second was a the last series of the master test and that mark was thrown contrary to training. so we handled on 2 out of 16 marks just by training to a higher standard!


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