# undeceded testicle/level 1 heart murmur puppy



## Goldbeau (Mar 29, 2008)

Hi All, 

I'm new here! We just brought our new puppy home (he will be 9 weeks tomorrow) and we love him. We got him from a breeder that was recommended by a friend. I took him to the vet the day after he came home and was told he had a level/stage one heart murmur and a undescended testicle. I called the breeder and she is going to have him looked at by a cardiologist. She assured me that the murmur should go away on its own. I also was concerned that we were not told he had an undecended testicle. Is that something we should have been told when we picked him up? She said her vet said they were both there. Now I'm not a vet, and I can tell he only has one. I have read that it can still drop and that there is little chance it will in a Golden at this age. Help! Any advice is welcome. I know goldens can have health issues, but we just got this little guy home


----------



## AtticusJordie (Aug 15, 2006)

Goldbeau:

Welcome to the forum. My experience as a breeder is nonexistant--heart murmurs in pups often go away as they get older. As for the undescended testicle--you can always get a second opinion from your own vet. 

I'm sure that you'll be getting a LOT of suggestions within the next day or two. We have a LOT of experienced folks here on the Forum.

Again, welcome and good luck with the new addition. By the way, what's his name?

SJ


----------



## Goldbeau (Mar 29, 2008)

Thanks so much SJ for your thoughts. I'm very glad I found this forum! I was so overwhelmed when I took him for his vet's checkup. He also had a parasite, which I know is common, but I was thinking, please don't find anything else wrong!  
My pups name is Beau


----------



## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

Hello and welcome,
I too have a Beau and cant wait to see pictures of your Beau. I dont know much about the info you are asking but we have several members here that have dogs with heart murmurs that are higher levels than yours and they can probably answers most of your questions and we have lots of breeders.
Just jump in and ask any questions you might have.


----------



## mdoats (Jun 7, 2007)

Welcome. I'm sorry your first post had to be about issues like this. I don't know much about the specific health issues but I assume that your breeder provides a health guarantee? The first thing I would do is call the breeder. I know my breeder provided me with a health guarantee and would either take back a sick puppy or reimburse me for health costs up to the cost of the dog.


----------



## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Goldbeau said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I'm new here! We just brought our new puppy home (he will be 9 weeks tomorrow) and we love him. We got him from a breeder that was recommended by a friend. I took him to the vet the day after he came home and was told he had a level/stage one heart murmur and a undescended testicle. I called the breeder and she is going to have him looked at by a cardiologist. She assured me that the murmur should go away on its own. I also was concerned that we were not told he had an undecended testicle. Is that something we should have been told when we picked him up? She said her vet said they were both there. Now I'm not a vet, and I can tell he only has one. I have read that it can still drop and that there is little chance it will in a Golden at this age. Help! Any advice is welcome. I know goldens can have health issues, but we just got this little guy home


Slight Innocent murmurs will often resolve themselves by the time the pup is 14 weeks old. 

Testicles often go up and down in young puppies. They are not always equal in size and they are sometimes missed upon exam too. I wouldn't get too concerned about it until the pup is a little older.


----------



## marshab1 (Aug 28, 2006)

Goldbeau said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I'm new here! We just brought our new puppy home (he will be 9 weeks tomorrow) and we love him. We got him from a breeder that was recommended by a friend. I took him to the vet the day after he came home and was told he had a level/stage one heart murmur and a undescended testicle. I called the breeder and she is going to have him looked at by a cardiologist. She assured me that the murmur should go away on its own. I also was concerned that we were not told he had an undecended testicle. Is that something we should have been told when we picked him up? She said her vet said they were both there. Now I'm not a vet, and I can tell he only has one. I have read that it can still drop and that there is little chance it will in a Golden at this age. Help! Any advice is welcome. I know goldens can have health issues, but we just got this little guy home


When I took my 9 week old puppy to the vet, we were also told she had a heart murmur, a severe one. Hers has not gone away and has been rated a 4 - 4.5 by a cardiologist who did an echocardiogram. Her breeder was not as nice as yours. But she is now 22 months old and thriving. So a heart murmur is not the end of the world. Plus many puppies have a slight murmur that they outgrow. (and did you know that some studies say that almost every human has a heart murmur at one time or other in their life and just doesn't know it)


----------



## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

I agree with SC. 

However, the only way to determine the "level" or grade of a murmur is by a Cardiologist. Vets often get it wrong. A Cardiologist, unless the murmur is severe, will usually say to wait a bit longer and recheck then. If it is severely audible to him/her.....they'll do an echocardiogram (Doppler).

I'd wait a bit before I'd worry about the testicle. Unfortunately, if it goes up and stays up, that means surgery. Often they will come down later on.


----------



## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

I got cruiser when he was 3 months old, he came in with a grade 3 and a year later its still a 3. Took him to a Cardiologist they confirmed a grade 3 and wants to recheck him in a year. They said he can live a normal life and let him do whatever he wanted. He is a happy go lucky boy who ,loves life to the fullest.


----------



## ks02 (Oct 11, 2007)

I don't know much about canine cardiology, but I am a human cardiac nurse. I would think it would be pretty difficult for a general vet to hear a grade 1 murmur unless he or she had a lot of experience in cardiology. My guess is a cardiologist would probably diagnose it as a bit higher grade...nonetheless, MANY MANY infants and children have murmurs until the heart and body develop a bit more. I would think it would be similar in puppies. If it is truly a grade 1, my bet is that it will resolve on its own as the pup matures. I wouldn't worry a whole lot.


----------



## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

I would not panic about a grade 1 in a pup that young...

I would however start saving my pennies for an echocardiagram and cardiac workup by a canine cardiologist when your pup is about 6 months old - you will feel better knowing that it is truly gone or, god-forbid, if there is a problem. A simple echo at a clinic can cost as little as $200.00 - a complete cardiac workup at a teaching hospital can be around $800.00.

Liberty had no murmur until she was 6 months old...even then it was a very observant local vet that caught it. It was only slightly heard after activity and it dissappeard within seconds of when she would stop moving. She was a grade 2 at six months and a grade 3 at about 18 months...She is now 4.5 years and has stayed a grade 3 - she is on no meds and her activity is not restricted in anyway...

So murmurs while scary and certainly can be dreadful, very often they are 'just there' and still allow for a healthy, active life...


----------



## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Swampcollie said:


> Slight Innocent murmurs will often resolve themselves by the time the pup is 14 weeks old.
> 
> Testicles often go up and down in young puppies. They are not always equal in size and they are sometimes missed upon exam too. I wouldn't get too concerned about it until the pup is a little older.


I agree. See a cardiologist and I hope you can relax and enjoy your new pup. We worry so much about them! Welcome...


----------



## Aprilpa (Mar 24, 2008)

I can't really speak to the heart murmur although I do know a lot of mild ones go away on their own as the pup gets a little older. I agree with the others who say just start saving some money in case you need to see a cardiologist. 

As for the undescended testicle, at 9 weeks that isn't uncommon. They can go up and down and be hard to detect for awhile yet. I wouldn't worry about that unless it hasn't fully come down and stayed in place over the next few months. You have plenty of time for that to happen yet.

If it hasn't came down before it is time for him to be neutered, it just means his surgery will be a little more involved than normal. Instead of everything that needs removed being external so to speak, the vet will have to make an incision in his abdomen (more like a spay) and go inside looking for the testicle to remove it. So there will be some stitches and his recovery period will be a little longer than a typical neuter. It is definately recommended to neuter if he only has one come down though, because the testicle that is retained up inside the body is more prone to develop cancer. 

But like I said, you have plenty of time to wait for that to happen, he is still very young and there is a very good chance it will come down on its own.


----------



## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

Ditto, everything Aprilpa said. I had a German Shepherd, and 2 cats with undescended testicles. If he is pet anyhow, it should be of no concern, except you definitely have to have him neutered to prevent cancer later on.


----------



## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Swampcollie said:


> Slight Innocent murmurs will often resolve themselves by the time the pup is 14 weeks old.
> 
> Testicles often go up and down in young puppies. They are not always equal in size and they are sometimes missed upon exam too. I wouldn't get too concerned about it until the pup is a little older.


What he said


----------



## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Is it important that a dog with undecended testicles, if they never come down, be neutered?


----------



## arcane (Sep 18, 2007)

Kimm said:


> Is it important that a dog with undecended testicles, if they never come down, be neutered?


yes for sure I think it is, however , I think vets do make clients _*freak*_ and neuter far too early --I want my boys neutered b/w 14-18 mos --undecended or not, earlier causes them to grow long and lanky, very feminine, 6 more months is NOT going to cause cancer!!!!!! Early neuters have their own set of drawbacks as well according to recent studies.

Just another of my "vet" pet peeves! Clients tend to listen to the vets over me, so I feel its a losing battle some times...sigh


----------



## Goldbeau (Mar 29, 2008)

Thank you all so much for your input! I REALLY appreciate it. :wavey: I'm so glad I found this forum. My breeder is going to have Beau looked at the 2nd week in April by a cardiologist. It's good to hear many of you have healthy dogs with a murmur. I've read you should have him neutered anywhere between 6 and 14 months. (my vet pushes 6) Can't help but think vet's opinions have to be biased based on how much $ they make. She quoted me about $440 to neuter him if the testicle did not descend.


----------



## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

I agree with Arcane-6 months is far to early. My contract says not before 12 months and would prefer them to wait until 15 months.

Here are some good articles on the subject:

http://www.caninesports.com/SpayNeuter.html

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

My dogs generally mature very slowly and very late. One of my male puppies was neutered at 4 months (against my express wishes), and when his owners visited they wanted to know why he did not look like his litter sister and brother. He was tall, lanky, narrow head and chest, no bone to speak of while as a puppy in the litter he was almost a twin of his other brother.

It is common for the neuter to cost more if the testicle(s) does not descend.

Sounds like you have a responsible breeder there, also.


----------



## Goldbeau (Mar 29, 2008)

Tahnee GR said:


> I agree with Arcane-6 months is far to early. My contract says not before 12 months and would prefer them to wait until 15 months.
> 
> Here are some good articles on the subject:
> 
> ...


Thank you, these articles were very informative. I looked in my contract and it says he needs to be neutered between 9 and 12 months. I would like to wait at least the 12 months. I can't help but wonder what he would be like if we didn't neuter him at all. Looks like we may not have a choice. I have been happy with my breeders response to my concerns so far.


----------



## Jakerville (Jan 13, 2008)

Cryptorchidism is the term for an undescended testicle in a dog. Jake had one testicle that never dropped. I'm one of the owners who was "freaked out" by my vet. He convinced me early neutering was a necessity and Jake was neutered at six months. He also told me this is a hereditary condition. The surgery was more like a spay as they had to actually go into his abdomen to find the undescended testicle. I had planned on neutering Jake, but not that early. The vet convinced me that this was the best option. Since that time I've heard pros and cons both ways, but the deed is done and Jake is huge, happy and healthy. It's useless to second guess at this point, so it's behind us now.

Welcome to the forum and good luck with your new pup!


----------



## Goldbeau (Mar 29, 2008)

Jakerville said:


> Cryptorchidism is the term for an undescended testicle in a dog. Jake had one testicle that never dropped. I'm one of the owners who was "freaked out" by my vet. He convinced me early neutering was a necessity and Jake was neutered at six months. He also told me this is a hereditary condition. The surgery was more like a spay as they had to actually go into his abdomen to find the undescended testicle. I had planned on neutering Jake, but not that early. The vet convinced me that this was the best option. Since that time I've heard pros and cons both ways, but the deed is done and Jake is huge, happy and healthy. It's useless to second guess at this point, so it's behind us now.
> 
> Welcome to the forum and good luck with your new pup!


Thank you very much!:wavey: I think it may just depend on the individual dog. Just like us, some dogs seem to have worse side effects than others when it comes to procedures. I'm glad your guy is happy and healthy.


----------



## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

arcane said:


> yes for sure I think it is, however , I think vets do make clients _*freak*_ and neuter far too early --I want my boys neutered b/w 14-18 mos --undecended or not, earlier causes them to grow long and lanky, very feminine, 6 more months is NOT going to cause cancer!!!!!! Early neuters have their own set of drawbacks as well according to recent studies.
> 
> Just another of my "vet" pet peeves! Clients tend to listen to the vets over me, so I feel its a losing battle some times...sigh


My vet had me wait one year to get Zeus neutered. He wanted to give the testicle a chance to drop on its own, which it didn't. They still had to go searching for it.


----------



## buddybear (Dec 31, 2009)

Goldbeau said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I'm new here! We just brought our new puppy home (he will be 9 weeks tomorrow) and we love him. We got him from a breeder that was recommended by a friend. I took him to the vet the day after he came home and was told he had a level/stage one heart murmur and a undescended testicle. I called the breeder and she is going to have him looked at by a cardiologist. She assured me that the murmur should go away on its own. I also was concerned that we were not told he had an undecended testicle. Is that something we should have been told when we picked him up? She said her vet said they were both there. Now I'm not a vet, and I can tell he only has one. I have read that it can still drop and that there is little chance it will in a Golden at this age. Help! Any advice is welcome. I know goldens can have health issues, but we just got this little guy home


 
Hi...I am in a similar position as you. When i picked up our golden, last Saturday at 7 half weeks, the breeder mentioned the health check had found that he had one testicle and assured us it would probably come down later on. We took him for his jabs yesterday and the vet confirmed that one testicle is undistended and probably would not change. He also advised that he would need to be castrated as a result of this. We were looking forward to possible showing him if he turned out well and are now really disapointed. We have fallen in love with him and that won't change because of this. The breeder has offered to take him back, but that is out of the question. Any advice would be welcome


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I'm curious as to what your vet based the opinion on that it "probably would not change", since so many of them do drop as the puppy gets a bit older. Did he find something unusual that made him think that?
I'm searching my memory here but I'm pretty sure my Tito had an undescended testicle, too, because I remember my vet saying that if you didn't plan to breed or show, it didn't make any difference except for the neuter costing a bit more, as well as saying that most of them will drop down anyway. We didn't plan to do either, so I don't even really remember much of the conversation.
Well plans change, and now we do show him, and he has both testicles right where they belong. 



buddybear said:


> Hi...I am in a similar position as you. When i picked up our golden, last Saturday at 7 half weeks, the breeder mentioned the health check had found that he had one testicle and assured us it would probably come down later on. We took him for his jabs yesterday and the vet confirmed that one testicle is undistended and probably would not change. He also advised that he would need to be castrated as a result of this. We were looking forward to possible showing him if he turned out well and are now really disapointed. We have fallen in love with him and that won't change because of this. The breeder has offered to take him back, but that is out of the question. Any advice would be welcome


----------



## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

buddybear said:


> Hi...I am in a similar position as you. When i picked up our golden, last Saturday at 7 half weeks, the breeder mentioned the health check had found that he had one testicle and assured us it would probably come down later on. We took him for his jabs yesterday and the vet confirmed that one testicle is undistended and probably would not change. He also advised that he would need to be castrated as a result of this. We were looking forward to possible showing him if he turned out well and are now really disapointed. We have fallen in love with him and that won't change because of this. The breeder has offered to take him back, but that is out of the question. Any advice would be welcome


I agree with Barb that there's still a possibility of his testicle dropping. I am curious though, if you purchased the puppy on a show or pet contract, with full or limited registration? This would make a difference for me in how I felt about the situation.


----------



## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

I don't know why I was never sure about the testicle thing. Just I didn't want to offend him at such a young age  but I hear that they more likely than not will descend at a later date. Your vet will give you a deadline like, if it doesn't decend by the time he's x months old, going to have to do it for him.


----------



## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

Tracer had one testicle that would descend/retract until he was gosh...13 -15weeks old...then one day it decided 'better out then in'....
Unless the vet found something unique...I would give it time...
For his sake and yours....make his 'testicle checks' pleasant! If it descends and you do decide to show him, you dont want him flinching and scooting away every time a hand reaches under him!


----------



## Sucker For Gold (Jan 13, 2009)

Goldbeau said:


> Thank you, these articles were very informative. I looked in my contract and it says he needs to be neutered between 9 and 12 months. I would like to wait at least the 12 months. I can't help but wonder what he would be like if we didn't neuter him at all. Looks like we may not have a choice. I have been happy with my breeders response to my concerns so far.


Almost without a doubt Beau falls under a "limited registration". This simply means you can not show him in confirmation and you can not breed him....therefore, you will have to have him neutered.

HOWEVER, you MAY have some latitude in deciding when the neuter is done, even though your contract states between 9 and 12 months. Talk to your breeder. Any knowledgeable breeder is well aware of the long term health benefit/risks to spay/neuters in relation to when the spay/neuter is done.

Our contract stated spay/neuter "by 1 year", but when we spoke to our breeder about waiting until 18 months, she actually supported a late spay. She gave us plenty of room in deciding when we wanted the spay done.

If you have not already read up on the effects of spay/neuters here is an excellent article, which you may want to read:

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

As to the heart murmur, we had a golden who had a grade 3 murmur throughout his life. Although it caused us some worry (we do like to worry about our dogs), it never caused him one singe problem. He lived a normal life until we lost him to cancer at age 9. As mentioned by others grade 1 murmurs seen in young puppies often resolve themselves as the puppy matures.


----------



## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Just wondering if the parents of the pup had their heart clearances. As for the grade, let a cardiologist determine the grade. Does your contract offer a health guarantee (i.e refund the purchase price without the condition that you must return the pup for it to be honored). Did the parents have all of the recommended clearances (not just vet checked)? If not, I'd also be looking into pet insurance.


----------



## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

Goldbeau said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I'm new here! We just brought our new puppy home (he will be 9 weeks tomorrow) and we love him. We got him from a breeder that was recommended by a friend. I took him to the vet the day after he came home and was told he had a level/stage one heart murmur and a undescended testicle. I called the breeder and she is going to have him looked at by a cardiologist. She assured me that the murmur should go away on its own. I also was concerned that we were not told he had an undecended testicle. Is that something we should have been told when we picked him up? She said her vet said they were both there. Now I'm not a vet, and I can tell he only has one. I have read that it can still drop and that there is little chance it will in a Golden at this age. Help! Any advice is welcome. I know goldens can have health issues, but we just got this little guy home



_Both conditions should have been disclosed by the person who sold you the puppy. That testicle could still come down before the inguinal ring closes around 6 months. It's also possible that the testicle WAS down when the puppy was examined by a vet and has since retreated upwards. If you purchased this puppy as a show prospect or had any intention of breeding him you need to know that the descended testicle is thought to be largely genetic. I'd be more concerned about the murmur - which could very well go away, but should have been observed and disclosed by the seller's vet when the puppies were examined.
Erica._


----------



## buddybear (Dec 31, 2009)

Thanks for reasurance all of you... The breeder has only put a clause on the breeding side of things, i.e that i have him hip scored and eye tested b/4 i breed etc...She is really annoyed with the vet and his prognosis at such a young age and i am sure she is worried as it has implications for her own breeding plan. She has offered to take him back but that is not an option for us... We will give it a while and see how he goes...


----------



## NuttinButGoldens (Jan 10, 2009)

Gilmours contract states 18 months, and his health guarantee is void if done earlier than that.

Unless there is a medical condition requiring it, of course.



Tahnee GR said:


> I agree with Arcane-6 months is far to early. My contract says not before 12 months and would prefer them to wait until 15 months.
> 
> Here are some good articles on the subject:
> 
> ...


----------



## NuttinButGoldens (Jan 10, 2009)

Does this mean there will not be 6 more weeks of winter?





LibertyME said:


> Tracer had one testicle that would descend/retract until he was gosh...13 -15weeks old...then one day it decided 'better out then in'....
> Unless the vet found something unique...I would give it time...
> For his sake and yours....make his 'testicle checks' pleasant! If it descends and you do decide to show him, you dont want him flinching and scooting away every time a hand reaches under him!


----------



## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

NuttinButGoldens said:


> Does this mean there will not be 6 more weeks of winter?


NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!  I cant take 6 more weeks of winter!!!

My first laugh of the day!!!!! :wavey:


----------

