# In praise of Cesar (Millan that is)



## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

I've not been around much lately but one of the first threads I see upon logging in today is yet another 'Cesar Millan' thread... sure enough I see nothing has changed... some love him, some fear him and the same old arguments used in so many other Cesar threads are repeated over yet again... Some of the same posters from older Cesar threads reiterating their long held stances. Ho hum...

Forum members who know my style and viewpoints are well aware that I love everything Cesar and also that I'm basically a Democrat (its their platform and not about any single individual that attracts me), however this election season I'm very disappointed in both parties and America in general as so many ads and attitudes are about going negative. Scare tactics are going to decide this election (as well as sell you products). Vote for this candidate or buy this product or service not because of what it is and the good it can do but rather because the alternative is really scary. Much of America is being controlled by fear anymore... we seem to spend so much time running from scary things rather than running toward the good things... and unfortunately fear and negativity do sell services and product and do get candidates elected to office... people say they don't like negative ads yet time and again it has proven to work quite effectively on Americans. I've gotten sick of all the fear mongering used to advance one's standing, or sales pitch, or viewpoint etc. and so I was thinking why don't I try something different here and see how it works.

Well this thread devoted to the good in Cesar Millan and his works then is my experiment on attempting to concentrate solely on the positives (the good things) to attract people to Cesar's way and some of its philosophy. Cesar himself has inspired me to try this... as I noticed a long time ago that even though so many mainstream dog behaviorists and 'would-be' dog behaviorists are spending extraordinary amounts of effort constantly criticizing all aspects of Cesar from his methods to his success to his life (some have even gone so far as to write whole books specifically to 'dis' anything Cesar... almost as if they were trying to 'ca$h in' on his fame) I found it quite amazing that Cesar has never once yet 'bad mouthed' any other dog behaviorist or their methods... not one single time. Cesar owns the "high road" (and has so far shown a far better record of steering clear of the negative sniping and fear mongering than any political candidate I can think of)... he is truly a positive role model and so I will try to make this thread in his image...

The rules to this thread are quite simply really... I request that only positive things be said about Cesar. In other words, discuss things that you might have learned from watching Cesar's show or read in one of his books. Perhaps talk about a new perspective that has entered your way of thinking because of something Cesar has said or done or written or maybe talk about a particular episode in which you learned something new... or maybe some technique you tried that worked, etc. Get it? Let's be positive and get the most from what this man has to offer instead of trying to knock him down (and in the course attempt to elevate one's own ego and abilties... as too often motives are sadly transparent regardless of the attempts to guise it as saving innocent dogs from cruel punishment).

For those who believe Cesar is a danger to the dog owning public and think they need be alerted to the immense danger this man poses, please feel free to start your own thread entitle "Cesar Millan: Protect your dogs from this guy" or some such other scary titled thread and you can dedicate it to beating up on the man... that's fine with me but please don't do it here in this thread. I think there is a lot to be learned and shared by examining the man's work from a positive perspective.

Since I know from experience that there is a limit to the number of words allowed per thread (I'm so long-winded that I've actually bucked up against it a couple of times in the past) I will end it and leave this as the opening post to the thread and then add my own experiences and knowledge gained by watching Cesar and paying careful attention in separate subsequent postings as time goes on, however I'm also hoping to get others to join in on the discussions and together maybe we will gain more insight into new ways of thinking about our dogs and dealing with the problems that can crop up when living together with them.


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## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

I applaud Caesar Millan for the following:

#1.) The sheer number of animal rescues he has in his "pack".
#2.) Showing the benefit of exercise to the general public.
#3.) Getting in there with aggressive / dominant animals that have been written off by everyone... including the owners.
#4.) Bringing a show about dogs to the masses (I love the show just for the dogs on it).

I'm sure there is more


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## cinnamonteal (May 16, 2008)

Thanks for starting this thread, monomer. I totally agree with you regarding negative politics and fear being used as a controlling/selling point in the media. While I don't consider myself to be a big Cesar fan, I am happy to contribute some words regarding his show for the sake of a fair and positive discussion.

I think that Cesar does have some very good points. I started watching the show back before I ever had a dog and I learned a lot of things that I otherwise would have had to learn school of hard knocks. I think the biggest thing I have learned from watching the show is that almost every time someone has a problem with their dog, the human is doing something wrong. I also learned that every dog, no matter what size or breed, needs rules and boundaries. And another big lesson that I learned is the importance of exercise. It's amazing how many people contact Cesar with problems that stem from a lack of exercise. And now that I'm raising an adolescent golden, I'm seeing first hand just how important all that exercise is!


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

The technique of Blocking...

This is something that had never occurred to me. Some how the observation of this control behavior in dogs completely eluded me. After watching Cesar employ this technique (that's firmly grounded and observable in dog group interactions) I began to realize how powerful a tool this bit of knowledge was and began to attempt to use it to help get messages across to other dogs.

I actually have over a dozen personal stories I can relate in my efforts to use 'blocking' to help solve dog issues at the dog park, the dog beach, and at home. I will attempt to relate just one here:

Shortly after I joined a private dog park in a nearby city I met a girl there with a Doberman pup named Levi. This was the girl's first dog and her first time living on her own... Levi was a shy and energetic Dobie pup at 5 months and as time when on I often would meet up with them and we'd walk the perimeter of the park together. These walks gave me a lot of time to observe Levi and the interaction between owner and dog. By the time Levi was a year old he was a handful as he would jump and bite Laura's (his owner) jacket sleeves and even tear at her clothes... Levi wouldn't come at all (I often had to out think Levi and trap him so Laura could go home), he would charge the gates and like to stay just out of reach. I could tell many people feared Levi because he was such a big and powerful looking dog and of course because of his breed... but I knew he was really just a big puppy (mentally). Laura had taken him to obedience classes and gotten diplomas to prove it yet she still had no control over him at the dog park.

Well eventually Laura got a job (she'd been a student previously) and would occasionally have Levi boarded at the dog park during the day. They would let him run wild since no one could make him come into the club house (and I personally think maybe they were just a little afraid of him). One day I got to the park with Sidney and Levi happen to be there by himself running loose around the park... well, he definitely recognized me and Sid because, though Levi was usually a loner, he immediately attached himself to us and toured the park in our company for the following 3 hours. I had always taught Sid to wait at each gate until I entered first and then finally gave him the command to enter... well, Levi didn't know anything about self-control or manners as his usual entrance would be to jump and bite at Laura's clothing and then crash/barge through the gate first. I decided to practice blocking with Levi and see if I couldn't teach him some self-control in the process. I knew Levi understood the words "No" and "Stay" (though he didn't obey them) and so I commanded him to "Stay" and then opened the gate just wide enough so I could effectively keep him from passing through the opening. Levi respected me enough to not attempt to jump or bite at my clothing... he'd seen me stand up to other dogs in the past. The trick was to allow Sid to past through on command but block Levi until he was given the "Okay". I missed a couple times in the beginning because Levi was so quick and my timing poor... however it didn't take me long to sharpen up my 'reading' skills as I began to realize if I watched his butt muscles and tail I could accurately predict the second BEFORE he attempted to dash and effectively could cut him off with my body. Over time I was able to open the gate wider and wider until eventually I had Levi waiting on command as I stepped through and stood with the gate wide open. Before the end of the 3 hours Levi was automatically waiting at every gate for my command to enter. In fact Levi was constantly looking to me for direction and it was then I realize just how smart this dog really was... he wasn't simply a difficult dog, but rather he was just in search of someone he could understand to show him the way. When I left the park that day I was quite proud of myself and what Levi had accomplished. I didn't see Levi or Laura either very much after that day as her life situation was changing. However, a year later we were once again touring the perimeter together and I happen to mention that day with Levi and how he had learned to wait at the gate... her eyes lit up as she told me how he had begun to waiting at the gate shortly after a particular day being boarded at the park and thought he had just become smarter... however it was obvious to me that Levi had long since forgotten that day as he continued to ignore Laura and crash the gate, etc.

Not too long afterward Laura moved away and gave Levi back to the breeder... oddly enough I later ran into a person who had purchased Levi from that breeder and I was relieved to see that Levi finally had someone who had the time, energy and dog smarts to relate to him. I've not seen Levi in probably close to a year now but I do think about him from time to time and wonder how he is progressing.

Thanks to Cesar I learned about the technique of "blocking" and Levi was my first attempt at using it to solve a problem... since that time I've used it successfully quite a few times and it is now in my repertoire of behaviors I use to communicate with dogs.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

I will not say anything negative about your man Cesar in your fawning only thread, but I will say that since you can intimate, in your inimitable, only semi- buried way, that those who do not agree with him are somehow less intelligent, fearful, or only boosting their own egos -
*Ho-hum*. 
Now back to the Cesar Milan Worship Hour.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Cesar's life story is a very good example of the classic "american dream" . He has good timing, and a serious amount of courage in addressing dogs who bite.


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## vrocco1 (Feb 25, 2006)

Great topic Monomer. I had no idea that we agreed on something so political as Cesar!


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

I haven't read or watched enough of Cesar to make an informed decision about him or his methods. I've heard some things that I didn't particularly care for, but since all were second-hand, related to me through the lens of someone _else's_ perspective, I've stayed pretty much neutral.

I will say that I'm planning to look for his books. I don't have to agree with everything the man says and does. If I find just one helpful tip in a book, it's money well-spent. I don't buy into the theory that you either have to agree with him 100% or disagree with him 100%. Take what works for you and disregard the rest.

By the way, Monomer -- have you read "Fear - the history of a political idea" by Corey Robin? It's interesting. I think you might enjoy it.
You also might like "The Opportunity" by Richard N. Haass. I doubt that you'll read anything in either book that you don't already know - they may be preaching to the choir - but I thought they were both good reads.


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## MyBaileyGirl (Jun 11, 2008)

After reading his first book (Cesar's Way) I completely fell in love. I think that he has a great way of understanding and respecting animals. I try to apply his "calm" attitude as much as possible when Bailey acts up.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Gosh, Monomer, it's really too bad that you personally cannot walk the same "high road" on which you feel CM has chosen to travel: 

_Let's be positive and get the most from what this man has to offer instead of trying to knock him down (and in the course attempt to elevate one's own ego and abilties... as too often motives are sadly transparent regardless of the attempts to guise it as saving innocent dogs from cruel punishment)._

Every story has two sides, and if people are gathering nuggets of usable info from the show, good for them. When people ask me, as a trainer, what do I think of CM, I usually answer with:

* I agree that most pet dogs are under-exercised.
* I agree that dogs need rules and leadership.
* I think the show has raised an overall awareness of the importance of training your dog.

However, beyond that, I disagree with his methods.


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## AmyinAr (Feb 26, 2008)

ditto Quiz and I for one don't love threads where people aren't allowed to voice concerns ... I mean that's not really a solution to any problem political or canine ...


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## HovawartMom (Aug 10, 2006)

All trainers have some good stuff that I would take and some stuff that I would leave.I just take what works for me & my dogs!.
Noone is a 100% right or wrong!.
I like CM but I also like many othe trainers!.
He's a good trainer who knows how to make money which always brings jealousy and can reabilitate dogs that most of us,would never haver touched!.
Sadly enough,a lot of people get a dog and then,don't take the time to exercise them,enough or expect their dogs to be trained,just like that!.
Everything takes time,if you want to do it,well and animals are worth it cos they give it back,at 100%!.


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

I find it interesting you are a Democrat, but only allow one view on your thread. Hmmm.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

I certainly cannot speak for Stephanie, although I am guessing that she has as well, but in the 25+ years that I have been teaching and training in my area, I have worked with many dogs that "many of us wouldn't have touched." I also have a network of colleagues who I have referred clients to if I felt that I would not be able to help them. 
Cesar is not accomplishing anything different than what most good trainers are. He simply does it on television. Many very good trainers are getting the very same results as Millan with methods that I feel are not only safer and make more sense, but are more humane. As far as being "jealous", for me that is certainly not the case. I am as busy training as I want to be, and have "been there done that" as far as doing television programs and radio call-in shows.(There was an ongoing series done here in Northern MI called "Love Your Dog" which I did several episodes for. I was also a regular guest on "Ask The Experts" on WTCM. No, I won't sign autographs. )
Cesar certainly has not developed any miraculous, new training methods. He has put bits and pieces of years old techniques together (many which were abandoned by behaviorists and trainers long before Millan had ever been heard of), and sold himself. 

I will quote Stephanie, as I agree 100% -

_* I agree that most pet dogs are under-exercised._
_* I agree that dogs need rules and leadership._
_* I think the show has raised an overall awareness of the importance of training your dog._

_However, beyond that, I disagree with his methods. _

As for having a thread of one opinion only - *ho-hum. *


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

I thought this was positive and helpful.


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## Aprilpa (Mar 24, 2008)

Good clip Kim. I like Cesar, always have. I enjoy watching his show, I have gone to one of his seminars, and I think even if people are discussing what they _don't _like about him it is at least making them think about their dog and how important basic training is. I think for a lot of people it opens their eyes that their dogs are not just there to fill an emotional need for them, but that their dogs have their own needs that may not be being fulfilled, even in the most loving homes.


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

Why is it that if a thread is started it has to be turned into a fight? I just dont understand it. He is just wanting positive things people have learned from Cesar themselves. Start your own thread about the negatives you have learned or seen from Cesar and people can post to there their thoughts. I think it could be helpful to have both views in a different threads so we can learn more info without the bickering. Putting it on one thread usually turns into a fight like it has on this thread and nobody learns by it. 
Why does everything have to be a fight of "I am right and you are wrong" all the time lately? This is my ideas on how to have more discussions: 
Start a thread of "Why you dont like Cesar Millan's training methods" or a thread of "Positive training techniques I have learned". I think more people could learn from the positive than the bashing because you disagree with the techniques or issues.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Kimm said:


> I thought this was positive and helpful.


 
This is interesting and entertaining. Was there more to the clip? What comes next? How is the owner ("woman with German Shepherd") going to apply this in real life situations? Will she carry the "toy" with her?


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

BeauShel said:


> Why is it that if a thread is started it has to be turned into a fight? I just dont understand it. He is just wanting positive things people have learned from Cesar themselves. Start your own thread about the negatives you have learned or seen from Cesar and people can post to there their thoughts. I think it could be helpful to have both views in a different threads so we can learn more info without the bickering. Putting it on one thread usually turns into a fight like it has on this thread and nobody learns by it.
> Why does everything have to be a fight of "I am right and you are wrong" all the time lately? This is my ideas on how to have more discussions:
> Start a thread of "Why you dont like Cesar Millan's training methods" or a thread of "Positive training techniques I have learned". I think more people could learn from the positive than the bashing because you disagree with the techniques or issues.


This has been your idea of a fight? Listen, Monomer started this thread by referring negatively to anyone who doesn't agree with Cesar Milan. (they are somehow not smart enough, afraid, or have ego problems...) I haven't seen anyone "bashing" Millan. In fact, those who don't like his training methods have all had something positive to say about the man.
Stifling people's opinion, in fact, making it very clear that differing opinions are not welcome, seems to go completely against the spirit of the GRF, don't you think? There is a big difference between moderating and censoring.


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## PeanutsMom (Oct 14, 2007)

And that concludes my daily dose of GRF drama. 

Monomer, 
I'm far too queasy to add my own positive thoughts on Cesar but I enjoy the show and absolutely love seeing his "pack".


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

I am not asking to censor anyone, PG. And you know it. *I just asked why cant we have a thead of positive things learned from Cesar and not negative, so people can learn from each other, that is all. And for people to start a thread on why people dont like Cesar so we can see opposing sides. That is all.* See you had to fight about that even. That is what I am talking about. It seems like everything has to be a fight or smart alec comments if there are differing views and I am no just talking about this thread. And when I said fight, I meant comments like "fawning". Just a difference of opinion in being tired of reading negative comments discussed instead of the positive and learning from them

No Censorship here, just an opinion. Go back to your discussion of Cesar now. Sorry to interrupt.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> This is interesting and entertaining. Was there more to the clip? What comes next? How is the owner ("woman with German Shepherd") going to apply this in real life situations? Will she carry the "toy" with her?


If there was more to the clip they didn't show it. I thought it was interesting that all that was used was a treat and then something the dog was very interested in. I have no clue what happened later. 

I did watch a spoof on CM and when the person went Shhhh (or whatever sound he makes) Tucker started barking his head off. Not sure what that was about. 

It is hard when you have to give or read opinions in two different threads. At least for me. Sometimes one gets lost and I only read the most current threads. If I'm at work and don't respond, I miss many of the new threads posted if they don't rise to the top again.

Sorry, I'm taking this off topic.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

BeauShel said:


> I am not asking to censor anyone, PG. And you know it. *I just asked why cant we have a thead of positive things learned from Cesar and not negative, so people can learn from each other, that is all. And for people to start a thread on why people dont like Cesar so we can see opposing sides. That is all.* See you had to fight about that even. That is what I am talking about. It seems like everything has to be a fight or smart alec comments if there are differing views and I am no just talking about this thread. And when I said fight, I meant comments like "fawning". Just a difference of opinion in being tired of reading negative comments discussed instead of the positive and learning from them
> 
> No Censorship here, just an opinion. Go back to your discussion of Cesar now. Sorry to interrupt.


No fight here, Carol. Just looking for parity. A thread where it is clear that only one opinion will be allowed is hardly that. Good debate does show opposing sides, and there have been so many about Cesar Millan it's all out there.
You chose to address me as fighting or being a "smart alec", yet it's perfectly okay for Monomer to make disrespectful and barely veiled comments about those who do not agree with Cesar, although they've all had valid and civil points of view. 
Calling for a chance to see opposing views but not allowing them is somewhat confusing...


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## Cam's Mom (Apr 13, 2007)

I think the main reason it's not OK to have a positive only thread about Cesar, is because it gives a very weighted view of his techniques, many of which are very negative, harmful even. Having a seperate thread of negative things would be equally disturbing. The discussion and learning comes from the banter of ideas. None of us would learn anything if we weren't prepared to hear the "other side" from time to time.

If you allow only positive thoughts, anyone reading this thread would think everyone on the forum thinks Cesar is the greatest. I wouldn't allow him near one of my dogs.

Monomer's invoking the "my way or no way" theory. When I was in school that was called bullying. 

And I actually agree with Monomer on many issues.

Blocking, is what any good dog owner naturally does. It isn't generally something you need to be taught. 



> I thought this was positive and helpful.


I liked this clip too. The positive is, that Cesar passed this dog on to a good trainer, instead of using his own methods.

I like his use of exercise too, but not running dogs 5 or 6 miles in 90 degree temperatures however fit they are. I am a very vocal advocate of exercise, for both mental and physical health of dogs. So, positive modified!


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## vrocco1 (Feb 25, 2006)

hehehe I think Cesar is the best trainer out there. No reason, no drama, that is just what I think. 

If you really need any proof, than I suggest you look at the financials of his corporation.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

A thread for people to share what they enjoy about or have learned from CM is fine. What bothered me was Monomer's addition of negative comments regarding those who disagree. Frankly, I found them to be rude and unnecessary, not to mention way off topic for his proposed thread.


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## GoldenSmile (Apr 10, 2008)

I've been thinking a lot about the matter, myself.

I really haven't got a problem with him. In fact, I admire him. I think that what he has done is give the public an awareness of what is acceptable from a dog's behaviour. 

Something that has turned me off of the dog world all together is this hoity-toity attitude that it's MY way or the HIGHWAY. In fact, I've been lurking a bit around here and not really saying much of anything because of those feelings. The world of dog training and obedience is a very exclusive club. Lord knows, I've tried to understand it all but there's no one near me that would care to give me the time of day and those that would look down from their podiums would do so with nothing but distain, so I have come to my own conclusions about dog behaviour and training...

I digress...

Cesar Millan is one of very, very few high profile dog lovers and dare I say, behaviourists in the media light today. I believe that a person, wholly ignorant of the ways to train a dog besides 'rubbing their nose in it', can benefit from some of the things that he has shown. Yes, some of it is brute force and a bit unnecessary. Some of the things he applies to Rotties with temperament issues should definitely not be used on a skittish German Shepherd or a pedantic Golden Retriever. It's a case-by-case scenario. His shows and books have given power to people who are unsure of how to handle their pooches.

I mean look at it this way, how the HELL can you believe in positive reinforcment in a dog that chews your clothes and furniture to bits, chases the mailman, snaps at kids or barks at all hours of the day and night?? How can you reward behaviour when all you see is the bad? In order to put something into use, to use a certain type of training on any living being, you have to believe in it. So, in order to begin believing in that, you must first make a base for yourself which is made of understanding of what is acceptible and what is not. I believe that what Cesar Millan creates is a good base to work off of and it's up to a dog _lover _(not just a dog _owner_) to want more than that. To refine their own ways to deal with their dogs.

A person typically will take the path of least resistance. Period. Cesar's tactics offer just that-- an easy way to solve a difficult problem. Of course, a dog's wellbeing is never wholly guaranteed by this, but neither is it guaranteed by doing nothing. Your happiness is certainly not going to last if it's not already caved in by the little monster that hatched from all that cute puppy fur. 

I think that there are enough people here who have lauded their negative opinions about Cesar Milan. Frankly I believe that opinions are like... uhm... rear ends, everyone has got one. You can deal with it childishly and believe that no one wants to hear your opinion, or you can realize that you've flaunted your rear end enough and let someone else have the podium. For us fawning Cesar fans, we are AWARE of your disdain.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

I don't have CM show available, but Monomer relayed some CM advice when I was having trouble walking Lucky when he was a young puppy. It was all about "attitude" how you carried yourself, how you positioned your dog....and it worked very nicely for the problem I was having at the time (Lucky rolling on his back or making himself a mule as we were walking.)


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## Cam's Mom (Apr 13, 2007)

> I mean look at it this way, how the HELL can you believe in positive reinforcment in a dog that chews your clothes and furniture to bits, chases the mailman, snaps at kids or barks at all hours of the day and night??


I can and do, it works. You have to begin by noticing when your dog is behaving, for example lying quietly, and all dogs do, even the most difficult, form time to time.


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## ShadowsParents (Feb 27, 2007)

I haven't watched too much of CM but I do like the idea of not giving the dog attention unless it's on MY terms... for a behavior well done.

Oh yea, and Cesar is hot. lol


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

There is alot of Cesar Millan threads out there that have both sides like these if someone types in his name on the search thread. That is why I think a thread with one side is good for a change. And the other one was started this week. 
http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=43357&highlight=Cesar+Millan
http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=24077&highlight=Cesar+Millan
http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=26693&highlight=Cesar+Millan
http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=16841&highlight=Cesar+Millan
http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=16841&highlight=Cesar+Millan
http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=8764&highlight=Cesar+Millan


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## Heidi36oh (Feb 27, 2007)

My opinion I think Cesar is a good trainer, I always liked watching him, have not lately, maybe I should.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

GoldenSmile said:


> I've been thinking a lot about the matter, myself.
> 
> I really haven't got a problem with him. In fact, I admire him. I think that what he has done is give the public an awareness of what is acceptable from a dog's behaviour.
> 
> ...


I have no disadain for those who are Cesar fans at all, unlike some who do for those who are not.


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## Merlins mom (Jun 20, 2007)

I like watching CM. I don't agree with everything he does, such as the alpha roll, but I have learned a lot from watching his show. One of the things he talks a lot about is visualising what you want to happen, and suprisingly it works for me. I think just the act of the visualization must give me a kind of confidence in my body language that Merlin reads, if that makes sense.

I don't agree with any one trainer about all their methods (cept maybe Quiz! LOL), but watching his show makes me *think* more about the stuff I should be doing with Merlin. So I do more!

There sure are a LOT more people out walking their dogs than there were a few years ago. I've lived in the same neighborhood for the last 16 years and have always walked my dogs. I use to feel like I was one of the very few....now I am one of the many!


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## Sunshine Goldens (Oct 31, 2005)

I haven't been on here for some time and just happened upon this thread. I don't get it. Wouldn't logic dictate that if you post a "don't you dare..." thread it will goad people into, well..."daring"? 

What the heck is so important about knowing where people stand on Cesar Milan? Seems to me there is a lot more going on in the world right now that should bear a little more attention. That being said, I will stop the clock on my time wasted talking about this thread which seems to have an agenda and no point (unless pontificating is considered a point...)


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

ShadowsParents said:


> Oh yea, and Cesar is hot. lol


ROFL! Um, yeah... I'll second that. :
I just ordered his one book this afternoon and I'll remain neutral until I read it. But I do have to say he's easy on the eyes.


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## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

I have watched a few episodes of Caesar Millan's show and I see alot of people here posting that his methods are cruel. I would like to know how? I have yet to watch him strike a dog (even when it is biting him) nor have I seen any aspect of his training such that a judge would say "That is animal cruelty". 

I don't agree with some of his methods and think that he could do things differently (I can't think of a reason to Alpha Roll a dog) but from what I've seen he is effective. They do revisits on his shows and show the animal 2 - 3 months later and do progress reports.... all of the reports I have seen have been positive with the dog being better behaved.

Some of the animals on his show are on deaths door literally. He has been the last hope for quite a few dogs on his show in which other trainers have failed to get the desired result (and recommended putting the dog down) and he has successfully saved the dog. In those cases I am sorry I see the ends as justifying the means. 

I think the best way to solve the Cesar argument is to SHOW someone with the same results he has had with aggressive dogs using alternative methods. If he does not have the best methods somebody needs to step up and prove it by showing their rehabilitation of an aggressive dog.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Wow I haven't seen this thread since early this morning and it seems it too is not immune from the negative attitudes that have managed to drag down every single one of the many other Cesar threads started in the past. My opening comments were designed to layout the premise and reasoning behind me starting a new type of Cesar thread... one in which those who actually like the guy and are interested in his methods could finally have a thread with which to share that interest in some positive way without it being made worthless by the same old bickering... but the Cesar haters can't seem to resist their urges to wreck someone else's party... I can only assume that speaks to the depths of their disdain for those of us who like the guy and feel he has something of value to teach us. (In some strange way it sorta feels as if a group of happy kids are having fun building a wonderful sand castle and then a few unhappy bullies coming over to try and kick it down.)

There is very little to learn from repetitive bickering, with the very same arguments simply being repeated over and over... that is not learning, after the tenth time it can't even be called a debate anymore... its merely fruitless "fighting"... Carol got that one completely right! Thank you Carol. If one wishes to continue to "debate" Cesar, please do it in every other Cesar thread of the past and enjoy yourself... I suspect the members who really want to read and participate in this thread are those, like myself, who have grown weary of the fear mongering and are tired of rereading the same old arguments and would like to create something positive for a change. Attitude is everything in whether one can learn or not. Everyone on earth has some piece of knowledge that someone else can benefit by knowing but only if that individual is receptive to the notion: it is possible to become a better person tomorrow than I am today. If the mind set is negative, as would be the case when someone believes that they already know everything of any importance, then they set themselves up to remain forever unchanged, unmovable, untouched... incapable of ever learning.

All I can suggest at this point is for those of us who believe Cesar has something to teach us to try and ignore the enraged spoilers and their rants and just keep our attitudes positive and focused on what many of us may have already learned from Cesar, new insights, a different perspective perhaps. etc... I'd really like to keep this thread a celebration of the man, his life and the good he has manage to accomplish for dogs and their owners. Praise is a personal thing, what one learns from another is also a personal thing and no one should be trying to 'dis' any of us for sharing these thoughts and ideas with each other.

Maybe it will still be possible to get this thread on track and keep it there by ignoring those who refuse to 'get it'... otherwise it goes down in flames just like all the umpteen other Cesar threads have.


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

I like Cesar. I think he's very easy on the eyes (but dont' tell Bear) and a lot of what he does is just common sense (which is something I lack where Max is concerned at times). I've never understood the people who say his methods are cruel, and I don't think I've ever seen him say that his methods are something he invented. 
And he's hot, and Max likes him, so that's all that matters here.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Good grief. If a person doesn't happen to agree with every single thing that Cesar Millan preaches he or she is a "Cesar Hater"???
Maybe you don't read every word that those who do not agree with him. (They aren't all maximum word tomes, so should not be too difficult.) Most everyone who doesn't has in fact had _something_ positive to say.


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## Merlins mom (Jun 20, 2007)

There are many, many other threads on GRF. Why read one you know is going to irritate you, and then post in it to irritate others? Just ignore the thread!

I've been away for while. but I guess some things never change.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Here's the thing - Cesar doesn't irritate me. I don't hate Cesar. I don't have disdain for those who follow him. However, being told that differing opinions are not allowed, even when they are presented with a solid foundation, in a civil manner, is just not acceptable. So unliberal and un Democratic. None of the previous threads about Cesar Millan, or any other subject for that matter, have ever had restrictions put on them, and especially not in a manner that is meant to be superior, and mean, and stifle opposing opinions by making those who do not agree feel stupid because they don't.


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## FranH (May 8, 2005)

Everyone is allowed to post in every thread. It's Monomer's request to post only positive things about Cesar. It's just a request and it's impossible to restrict the opinions of a forum of almost 7000 people.


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## T&T (Feb 28, 2008)

I already have the " *DOG* whisperer " link
Now looking for the " *HUMAN *whisperer " link 
Anyone ?


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## jnmarr (Mar 7, 2008)

First of all can I assume you are feeling better?
Secondly, I agree with you about how negative the elections have become. We want to hear how they are going to fix things, not how awful the other guy is. A shame when you have to vote for the one that scares you the least.. 
And then there is Caesar! I tend to be long winded so I will TRY to condense it.. 
1. Exercise
2. Rules boundaries and limitations. I have the right to disagree with a behavior.
3. Small dogs are still dogs and need training, exercise and rules.
4. A lot of jerks use the dog parks in the wrong way.
5. Don't "reward" bad or inapropriate behavior. ie, petting when the dog is growling, or cowering, etc. 
6. I need to be in charge ( the leader ) and my dog needs to know he can trust me to handle situations. 
7. I will say HEY! or snap my fingers when they do something I don't want.. I even point! I use AHH!! Then praise the right behavior. I even use this with 
the day care children, or if the deli girl is putting something on my sandwich I had asked her not to.. universal communication.. I have done this for years. 
Things have have learned from the episodes that I have watched.
1. Hold my ground ( claim the space ) Even with simple "drop" 
or " leave it! " commands are more effective if I follow it up in this manner. I do reward and praise afterwards. 
2. Think positive thoughts... Think of what I want and make it happen. This is amazing. I tend to be a worry wart and this has helped me tremendously. I now will walk both of my dogs at once and go places I was afraid to go because I was afraid of how they would act. I taught " wait " in a similar way you have described. I would say it, think it, and watch the body language being ready to block. Wait is an amazing tool . 
3. Walking.. I want my dogs at my side on a loose leash, with my arm relaxed and me looking around with good posture also enjoying the walk. They walk with flat collars for the most part.. but they are young and I still have their easy walk harness on them in case they get too excited. It feels great it walk like that.
Before someone reams me a new one, there are things I disagree with , as I posted in another thread. But let me add... I have read many books, and training articles... attended obedience classes, and even had sessions with a behaviorist for Rusty.. There was not one case where I agreed with everything that was presented. Such is life. Also.. I believe in my heart of hearts that the material presented was not their original creation! Isn't that why trainers go to school and pass tests and get " certified " ? I am very happy there are some people open minded enough to try something different when the traditional things are not working. Don't you people remember the days of rubbing the dogs' nose in his accidents, biffing him as a correction, and jerking the mess out of him with metal collars or shock collars. Training is not a one size fits all.


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## Merlins mom (Jun 20, 2007)

T&T said:


> I already have the " *DOG* whisperer " link
> Now looking for the " *HUMAN *whisperer " link
> Anyone ?


LOL!


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

jnmarr... big thanks for your positive posting, its apparent to me you are one who thinks about these things alot and seem to be very thorough. (I actually like reading big, long postings that tell a complete story or that deliver a whole idea... you know, something with a "head" and a "tail" metaphorically speaking or even literally if its about a doggie )

Something I noticed early on about Cesar is he doesn't ever use treats or squeaky toys or tries speaking in a high-pitched voice etc... instead his approach seems to be centered around calming the dog rather than reving them up. Reward coming from Cesar means gentle stroking, a soft voice, a pat or a scratch but only when a dog is already in a calm state. Once I realized that, it seemed to make so much sense to me since I've yet to see any dog treating another dog... and the only thing another dog with a squeaky toy or yipping in a high pitched ('puppy') bark does is elicit excitement and rowdy play full of jumping and biting, the exact thing most owners find annoying. Watching Cesar, I began to understand treats are for tricks and calm energy and quiet confidence is what's needed for behavior modification. "Energy" has a specific meaning in Cesar's language and it actually took me quite a long time to fully grasp the concept well enough to actually make it work in practice... and I still sometimes slip-up by reverting to 'excited energy' in certain situations.

I think one reason Cesar appears so simple at first glance is that many of his words have a specific meaning he has attached to it that most of us don't quite translate the same way. I believe this is probably because English is not his native language and his command of English was not taught in school but rather through co-workers and most especially from Illusion (his wife). It should be remembered that Cesar entered this country as an adult not speaking any English. We all have certain thoughts and specific ideas in our heads and our words and gestures are the only way for us to attempt to share it with others... it is unfortunate that words can have slightly different meanings and connotation to each of us but after finding out how Cesar gained his skills in English, I have become keenly aware it takes some effort to fully grasp the concepts that Cesar is truly speaking about because of his choice of words. Also his timing and positioning is critical to much of his success and I'm not sure many people pick up on this unless it is specifically pointed out and explained... last of all the 'energy' he often speaks about I believe is something that the television cameras cannot capture and that is why it took me so long to learn to emulate. The dog owners in so many of his episodes (especially the earlier ones) remarked that though they watched all his shows, only now after seeing Cesar in action did they understand the concept of 'energy'... so I became convince that there must be something more to this 'energy' that can't really be sent through electrons and into my home. After much careful watching and listening and attempting to emulate I think I much better understand what this 'energy' feels like as many dogs seem to respond to me in a calmer way than before I ever watched Cesar.

I think if people can get past the accent and the simple appearance of this man ...past the assumptions that his lack of college degrees or not having studied under anyone other than his grandfather relegates him to the status of a simpleton or worse, a charlatan, misses the truer meaning of what this man is espousing. I think the man's simple appearance and unusual use of the language stops most people from more careful and thoughtful observations... I actually find Cesar quite complex and applaud him for trying to distill it into simple bite sized chunks with adages like "Exercise, discipline, then affection... always in that order" etc. Think about it... if its all so easy then how come no one else thought of it before. I think it would be more embarrassing to think it took a simpleton from Mexico to fire up and connect with the dog owners of America when all the phDs and 'professionals' couldn't do it in the last 60 years (the time television has been around). I prefer to think there is far more to this guy and if I expend the time and effort I will begin to understand more and become a better person in the process.


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## mr3856a (Jan 19, 2008)

How could you possibly disagree with his methods? I'm not up-to-speed on the politics of liking or disliking Cesar Milan, but geez, the guy teaches people to exercise their dogs, give them calm, assertive leadership and to never get upset or angry at them.

What can you possibly find negative in that?


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

mr3856a said:


> How could you possibly disagree with his methods? I'm not up-to-speed on the politics of liking or disliking Cesar Milan, but geez, the guy teaches people to exercise their dogs, give them calm, assertive leadership and to never get upset or angry at them.
> 
> What can you possibly find negative in that?


Nothing. Absolutely nothing. (Go back and look at Flying Quzini's post, and mine quoting and agreeing with her...) Again, _many _trainers have been applying that philosphy for many years. One entire evening of my 5 wk Puppy course is devoted to body language, and that class is 25 years old. This is nothing new. The philosphy is good, my concerns lie with some of the ways that he executes them.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

jnmarr said:


> ...Think positive thoughts... Think of what I want and make it happen. This is amazing. I tend to be a worry wart and this has helped me tremendously. I now will walk both of my dogs at once and go places I was afraid to go because I was afraid of how they would act. I taught " wait " in a similar way you have described. I would say it, think it, and watch the body language being ready to block. Wait is an amazing tool ...


The story I related earlier about using the technique of blocking to teach wait was only the first time I had ever consciously put blocking into use... since then I've employed blocking to assert dominance (without any physical contact), claim ownership, teach self-control behaviors, stop aggression, and to 'break' fixations as it makes the finger jab and the "Sht" or "Ack" far more effective... and being able to break a dog's fixation itself is a very valuable tool to use in behavior modification.

Interesting you should mention about not being afraid to go places with your dogs... This is something I too learned from Cesar... to not dread or avoid situations simply because of what 'could' happen. I simply do NOT anticipate trouble and take Sid and Sophie everywhere without apprehension or fear. This attitude has made them very confident and yet non-threatening when meeting/greeting other dogs to the point that I've seen them actually calm the more unstable type dogs (all the way from aggressive to fearful)... this in turn comes full circle as it makes me even more confident of their skills so that I don't fear any situation. I have actually 'volunteered' Sidney on many occasions to meet 'less sociable' dogs that owners or trainers were worried about. Several times in the past at two different private dog parks I've had a trainer and/or owner with an unsociable dog either warn me about the dog or ask my permission to allow their dog to approach Sidney. Everyone else at the park goes the other way but I actually relish watching Sidney in action and know that if there is any trouble I feel confident enough I could 'read' the other dog and I be able to quickly intervene. So far there has never been a problem as Sidney can be quite the diplomat... I actually am happy if Sidney and I can be part of another dog's rehabilitation program. (I suppose in some way I see Sidney as Cesar's Daddy... only a lot leaner and a bit furrier with a longer tail. Actually Daddy doesn't even belong to Cesar, but you can tell he is Cesar's favorite 'therapy dog'.) Plus I now look at new situations as an opportunity to teach Sid and Soph about what is not acceptable behavior on their parts... couldn't really do that if I avoided those situations now could I?


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Tonight on our bike ride (me riding, the dogs on foot), we came up upon two fully grown female deer in the path... they stood still for a moment when they realized two dogs and a guy on wheels was fast approaching... then in the blink of an eye they took off... and the chase was on with Sophie in hot pursuit. As soon as they right angled off the trail into the weeds and woods I called Sophie off (not that I had sent her after them to begin with). A loud "No!" was just enough to cause her to stop at the edge of the woods. Sidney also saw the deer but was wise enough to know it was a lost cause and a waste of energy so he declined the chase.

However it got me to thinking about something Cesar talks about... that size in the dog world doesn't really matter, rather its about the type of energy a dog gives off. I realized that each one of those deer were 3 times the weight of little Sophie and at several times her height could have easily killed her... and there were two of them! True they saw me and Sidney (a bigger dog) but I'm sure if it were just Sophie they still would have run. In their minds they are prey and their energy is about fear and escape... Sophie is technically a predator and so her mind set is to chase with all confidence (provided the prey pursue escape). The physical reality says it should have been the other way around but their energies dictate these huge creatures instinctively give way to the little one with the floppy ears. It was Cesar's explanation of energies in the dog world that brought me around to understand how shy, fearful, and timid dogs are often responsible for being attacked by actually triggering the attacks by their own behavior... especially bad when those dogs are in a pack. My guess is that it triggers the carnivore energy in confident dogs when they see another animal retreat in fear (expressing the fear energy of a prey animal) even if this animal is another dog. This is why I think its very important to get fearful dogs socialized properly (especially as puppies) when often the owner's approach is to avoid socialization and put the blame other dogs. Anyway this was just a thought that popped into my head tonight...


BTW, a couple people have been PMing me their thoughts and stories about Cesar and I do enjoy it... however I think it would be nice if it were also shared on the open forum. I know I can't promise this thread will be a safe haven from ridicule for you but if we all share together in the open maybe we can show the spoilers what it means to be positive or maybe they will just go away. Anyway my intention was not to embarrass anyone as I can understand no one wants to get 'involved' in justification arguments just for relating their own personal insights, thoughts and stories.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

monomer said:


> BTW, a couple people have been PMing me their thoughts and stories about Cesar and I do enjoy it... however I think it would be nice if it were also shared on the open forum. I know I can't promise this thread will be a safe haven from ridicule for you but if we all share together in the open maybe we can show the spoilers what it means to be positive or maybe they will just go away. Anyway my intention was not to embarrass anyone as I can understand no one wants to get 'involved' in justification arguments just for relating their own personal insights, thoughts and stories.


 
Not once has anyone ridiculed anyone for being fans of Cesar Millan.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

UGH!!! Why do I read this thread? There might be some pointer or tip I would use and then I get frustrated...Ugh!


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## Wilson's REAL Mom (Nov 10, 2006)

Monomer, I just wanted to thank you for starting this thread. I have found myself interested enough to order one of his books and the first season of his show. I'll just have to read and watch and make up my own mind as to what I think about him.


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## T&T (Feb 28, 2008)

monomer said:


> ... BTW, a couple people have been PMing me their thoughts and stories about Cesar and I do enjoy it... however I think it would be nice if it were also shared on the open forum. I know I can't promise this thread will be a safe haven from ridicule for you but if we all share together in the open maybe we can show the spoilers what it means to be positive or maybe they will just go away. Anyway my intention was not to embarrass anyone as I can understand no one wants to get 'involved' in justification arguments just for relating their own personal insights, thoughts and stories.


"BASIC" TRAINING A "NORMAL" DOG IS NO ROCKET SCIENCE.
REHABILITATING AN AGGRESSIVE RED ZONE DOG IS A WHOLE OTHER BALL GAME ... 
AND WE'RE NOT TALKING 















THAT'S WHERE I 







TO CESAR. 

I ALSO APPRECIATE ALL THE WORK HE DOES WITH SHELTERS & RESCUES.
I LIKE THE CESAR "ENERGY"


*Monomer *YOU MAY WANT TO DO A POLL ? 
NOT EVERYONE LIKES TO GET INTO HEATED DEBATES ... 
I KNOW* I* FIND IT PRETTY DRAINING AT TIMES ...


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## T&T (Feb 28, 2008)

Wilson's REAL Mom said:


> Monomer, I just wanted to thank you for starting this thread. I have found myself interested enough to order one of his books and the first season of his show. I'll just have to read and watch and make up my own mind as to what I think about him.


LOTS OF VIDEOS ON HIS LINK ! 
http://www.cesarmillaninc.com/videoplayer/


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## Wilson's REAL Mom (Nov 10, 2006)

T&T said:


> LOTS OF VIDEOS ON HIS LINK !
> http://www.cesarmillaninc.com/videoplayer/


Thanks for posting this...off to "waste" some more time.  Anything to avoid Mt. Laundry!


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Wilson's REAL Mom said:


> Monomer, I just wanted to thank you for starting this thread. I have found myself interested enough to order one of his books and the first season of his show. I'll just have to read and watch and make up my own mind as to what I think about him.


His first book mostly gives some insight into his background and there is a little bit about philosophy but very little about dog behavior modification... so little in fact, that that was the main complaint from readers who had purchased it. I, on the other hand, thoroughly enjoyed it but then again, I'm not hard to please and it takes very little to entertain me. His second book I feel was written in response to those criticisms of his first book and so it does have a lot more in it pertaining to behavior modification and the philosophy... however Cesar's approach is very hands on and so I believe you will find your best purchase to be probably those DVDs of season one. Don't try to watch them all in a single sitting or two... trust me, it will burn you out. Its better to just watch an episode or two every few days... as if it were being aired on TV. His first season was made up of usually 2 cases per half-hour episode and the presentation and production efforts differ quite a bit from his second and third season offerings... I personally found the production efforts at levity kinda fun. I enjoyed all the eclectic clients and their doggie issues... in fact, the client characters together with their lifestyles and personal situations I found easily as interesting as the actual dog rehabilitations. If you've never watched Cesar before don't be concerned as he repeats certain adages from show to show (this was almost done to a fault in the first season) but instead focus on exactly what he is doing and how he is projecting himself to the dogs and the owners as well. After viewing the whole series... then go back and re-watch and if you are like me you will begin to see things you really didn't notice the first time around. And if you'd like to discussion your impressions of various episodes do it here and I will re-watch the same episode (I too have the whole first season episodes on DVD) so perhaps we can discuss it together... I think that might be fun... I told you, it takes very little to entertain me


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

T&T said:


> ...*Monomer *YOU MAY WANT TO DO A POLL ?
> NOT EVERYONE LIKES TO GET INTO HEATED DEBATES ...
> I KNOW* I* FIND IT PRETTY DRAINING AT TIMES ...


Actually I don't mind a good rousing debate if it eventually leads to something (other than revenge motives that is) but when it never progresses past a certain point and then is repeated over and over again well... it has the appearance of nuttiness and begins to resemble a type of mental illness I think... that's when I feel it might be a better idea to explore other alternatives to simply repeating old positions. Yeah, I know just what you mean about it being draining... and to that I will add frustrating... and the combination of those two emotions can make it unpleasant to even witness let alone participate in. Believe me I do understand why some people would rather just PM their thoughts instead.


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## jnmarr (Mar 7, 2008)

I have been mulling this over ... T & T has hit on something else.. Some of these dogs are dangerous, red zone cases. Meaning able to attack at any time.. Many of them have had other trainers and behaviorists try to help them. The owners have said on numerous occasions, Cesar is his last chance ". Many trainers don't have the knowledge, training or even the desire to help these owners and their dogs. In these cases he has saved their lives. He admits there were 2 dogs he could not help. National Geographic channel said they let him be himself. I watch him unless he does something that I don't agree with. In that case I change the channel. We have that right.


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## nictastic (Aug 21, 2008)

I am pretty new to the dog world & training. I have had dogs in the past, but, these have always been older dogs and already trained. 
I watch a few CM clips (mmm quiet a few clips, was up til 2am) and i think his methods are great effective and work very quickly. Although, i could not find advice on some of the things i was looking for.
So if anyone can help i would like some help with the following things.
1. Jumping on the couch everytime i turn my back.
2. Refusing to walk/Lying down when we are out
3. jumping up at the little ones
All help greatfully recived
P.s pup is 13 weeks old 
This thread is fab and if we can share all the positives maybe newer members, like me can learn alot from it x


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

nictastic said:


> ...So if anyone can help i would like some help with the following things.
> 1. Jumping on the couch everytime i turn my back.
> 2. Refusing to walk/Lying down when we are out
> 3. jumping up at the little ones
> ...


One thing I don't ever recall Cesar dealing with is puppies. I think its because they are still... well 'puppyish' in behaviors and haven't really matured enough to warrant his type of 'fixes'. Puppies must be handle a bit differently for a number of reasons. So this being a Cesar thread, the bottomline here is Cesar doesn't really address behavior modification in puppies. You might consider asking those very same questions in the puppy forum and I'm sure you will get loads of responses to help you.

If you want my thoughts (unrelated to Cesar's way) I would say you must exercise a lot of patience with very young puppies. You will need to be very consistent and persistent with your corrections. Finally, timing is critical as well. So to put these principles into use I would suggest:

1. Keep it simple and never allow puppy onto any piece of furniture, so there is no confusion as it makes it quicker and easier for puppy to figure out what the rule is. After about a year, you can then begin to allow puppy onto selected pieces of furniture only after you initiate an invite. This is probably the easiest way to teach a dog which pieces of furniture are okay and which will always be off-limits without going through a lot of confusion. The next step is about timing and employing consistancy/persistancy... for the time being, you should not allow your puppy to be alone in the presence of furniture, ever! If you are interacting with the puppy then it shouldn't be a problem for you to catch the little one just before s/he make the leap. The key to timing is to correct the thought and not the deed... IOWs if you can correct the moment the thought enters puppy's head, then the lesson will go a lot faster than if correcting after puppy has receive the satisfaction of being on the couch. Be alert to puppy's movements and eye contact to points of interest and ear carriage... all these things tell you when puppy is going to make his/her move... THAT'S the best time to give a stern glance and a "No". However if puppy makes it to the couch you must immediately tell puppy "Off" and, as if you are an emotionless machine (using neither anger nor any softness), you wait 3 seconds and then physically remove puppy unless the pup has already complied with your request. You must be relentless in this... if you are inconsistent then you cannot blame puppy for naughtiness or stupidity, rather you must take the full blame.

2. This has been discussed many times and you might do a search to see what others have offered in the past. Have you tried using treats to lure puppy back on his/her feet? Happy talking and enthusiasm? I personally take a 'tough love' approach and will actually keep the leash quite taught and hold it patiently and without malice until puppy finally figures out if s/he gets up and moves forward the leash will go slack. In the beginning it might seem to take forever but in reality only minutes will have elapsed... 5-10 minutes can seem like like forever when you are in the middle of your walk and people are staring at you and puppy on the sidewalk and wondering if you are being cruel. However after a couple of times doing this puppy will get much quicker at figuring out its more fun to continue the walk... and once you 'win' that battle, puppy will be open more to your winning other battles like at feeding time, etc.

3. Again jumping is one of those topics that has a wealth of good info already discussed if you do a search. Jumping and biting are probably the two most common complaints heard about Golden puppies. You must realize that this is very common and more instinctive than anything else. It seems that some puppies are more prone to display these behaviors than others... what I'm trying to say here is that some owners don't experience these behaviors to the same extent that others seem to and therefore leading to confusion about what works and what doesn't. So rather than me giving you suggestions here, I will offer just this... you must have patience yes, but help the puppy out by making sure s/he gets enough exercise every day. Be careful about the types and duration of these exercise outings with puppy. The rule is to exercise a young puppy quite often but with short outings and staying on soft, grippy surfaces when possible. I would say for your puppy maybe 5-7 play sessions would not be too much and at 20-40 minutes per session... for a total of 2 to 3 hours of activity per day. This will go a long way toward making puppy easier to teach and less explosive when greeting you thus helping puppy to remain calmer.

Sorry I couldn't give real Cesar advice to you but as I suggest, you will probably find lots of good suggestions in the puppy forum about dealing with the behavioral issues common to Golden puppies. Enjoy your Golden's puppihood, as though it might be frustrating you now, its curious how much you will find you miss that naughtly little puppy once your best friend has grown up.

BTW, feel free to continue to post and share your thoughts about Cesar in this thread, we can still have fun.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

This whole thing is so ridiculous, and completely embodies the reasons I so rarely visit this forum anymore. Why is it that some people are allowed to start a thread and in no uncertain terms hurl insults and jabs at anyone who may not hold the same opinion while the rest of us are walking around on eggshells trying to observe the new forum rules? Ironically, it will likely be me who receives a warning and/or temporary ban for my post... but that just proves my point, doesn't it? 

Debate can be healthy and enlightening when we stick to the issues at hand instead of slandering our opponent. But monomer doesn't like those rules. If you look back at those old threads discussing CM, it was mostly monomer who used intimidation tactics and launched personal attacks when faced with logical (and scientifically based) arguments about techniques. Those who saw things differently from him were "jealous" (de ja vu much?), inferior, and ignorant.... oh, and of course only in it for a profit (even though many of us are not professional trainers and have no "bottom line" to speak of). There's at least one certified animal behaviorist who very rarely frequents this forum due to the warm welcome monomer gave her in a Cesar thread. It's a shame really, when so many people come here looking for help with behavioral issues, that such a valuable resource has been squandered. But that was, as we all know, followed not by repercussions for his actions. He was rewarded with temporary moderatorship of the forum that began the very next day... and I won't even get into the behavior we all witnessed at that time. 

I, for one, am sick of the tirades and lectures. Did all of you seriously read the first post of this thread? Not only were we all bullied out of giving dissenting views with a complete "psychoanalysis" of the type of person who doesn't agree with CM (LOL), but we got a nice little soapbox lecture about the election to top it all off. Condescending would be an understatement. 

Everyone says they're sick of the constant fighting, but these types of baiting tactics and blatant bullying are allowed without question... while those with the fortitude to stand up for themselves are the only ones to see the consequences of not holding their tongue. Well, I'm sick to death of holding mine and will gladly accept whatever recourse the moderators see fit.... especially if it opens at least one person's eyes to the disparity that has pervaded GRF for months now. If we want the constant bickering to stop, all we need is equal enforcement of the rules. That really shouldn't be too much to ask.

Julie and Jersey


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Jersey's Mom said:


> This whole thing is so ridiculous, and completely embodies the reasons I so rarely visit this forum anymore. Why is it that some people are allowed to start a thread and in no uncertain terms hurl insults and jabs at anyone who may not hold the same opinion while the rest of us are walking around on eggshells trying to observe the new forum rules? Ironically, it will likely be me who receives a warning and/or temporary ban for my post... but that just proves my point, doesn't it?
> 
> Debate can be healthy and enlightening when we stick to the issues at hand instead of slandering our opponent. But monomer doesn't like those rules. If you look back at those old threads discussing CM, it was mostly monomer who used intimidation tactics and launched personal attacks when faced with logical (and scientifically based) arguments about techniques. Those who saw things differently from him were "jealous" (de ja vu much?), inferior, and ignorant.... oh, and of course only in it for a profit (even though many of us are not professional trainers and have no "bottom line" to speak of). There's at least one certified animal behaviorist who very rarely frequents this forum due to the warm welcome monomer gave her in a Cesar thread. It's a shame really, when so many people come here looking for help with behavioral issues, that such a valuable resource has been squandered. But that was, as we all know, followed not by repercussions for his actions. He was rewarded with temporary moderatorship of the forum that began the very next day... and I won't even get into the behavior we all witnessed at that time.
> 
> ...


I didn't read it that way. I saw this as an opportunity to discuss positive things about a man who some people admire. We had a working thread that was very full critiscism (sp).....its just nice to center a thread around the positive aspects for a change. There are some trainers that I don't agree with...purely positive trainers for instance. And even though I think a trainer that ONLY uses positive techniques in ALL situations is dangerous in SOME situations....I could still respect the intent of the thread.

But we are a forum with many different perspectives. But again I personally think this was a nice thread that some people don't want to respect and they don't have to respect it.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

There are ways to start a "positive" thread that don't include insulting anyone who happens to disagree. One could say for instance "I think there are plenty of threads debating this topic, and would like one where we focus on the positive. I respectfully ask those who disagree with the methods advocated by Cesar to refrain from entering our previous debates and perhaps look for areas of common ground".... or some such thing. But instead we are called jealous, petty, arrogant, greedy, and whatever other litany monomer sees fit to unleash. I have no problem with the topic of this thread, only with the way it was, and seemingly always is, presented by monomer. That is what I don't respect.

Julie and Jersey


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Jersey's Mom said:


> There are ways to start a "positive" thread that don't include insulting anyone who happens to disagree. One could say for instance "I think there are plenty of threads debating this topic, and would like one where we focus on the positive. I respectfully ask those who disagree with the methods advocated by Cesar to refrain from entering our previous debates and perhaps look for areas of common ground".... or some such thing. But instead we are called jealous, petty, arrogant, greedy, and whatever other litany monomer sees fit to unleash. I have no problem with the topic of this thread, only with the way it was, and seemingly always is, presented by monomer. That is what I don't respect.
> 
> Julie and Jersey


He doesn't call you jealous or petty....he's talking about people (not from the forum) the other well -known trainers who bad mouth Cesar and who are making money off of him by presenting a "better" and contrasting way.

All I'm saying is that I didn't read insults or ill will in his words. I think if you are angry with the op then it is easy to read something that isn't there just because the man grates on you. thats human nature.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

I'm reading things that aren't there? Well, let's see exactly what was written, because you're right, in one or 2 cases I was referring to the attacks launched in other threads... so we'll stick specifically to comments in this one. These are excerpts from various posts monomer has made in this thread alone.



> some love him, some fear him


Because apparently those are the only 2 options?



> Let's be positive and get the most from what this man has to offer instead of trying to knock him down (and in the course attempt to elevate one's own ego and abilties... as too often motives are sadly transparent regardless of the attempts to guise it as saving innocent dogs from cruel punishment).


This comment is certainly not directed at other "professional" trainers out there in the world that don't agree with Cesar... this is directed at members of GRF and intended to intimidate those who might disagree by preemptively calling their motives into question.



> For those who believe Cesar is a danger to the dog owning public and think they need be alerted to the immense danger this man poses, please feel free to start your own thread entitle "Cesar Millan: Protect your dogs from this guy" or some such other scary titled thread and you can dedicate it to beating up on the man...


This, of course, followed the rant about unscrupulous fear mongering and negative ads in politics. By monomer's standards, those of us who disagree with Cesar must resort to doomsday scenarios to frighten everyone away from him. Again, let's characterize those who disagree in such a slanderous way they won't dare weigh in.



> I suspect the members who really want to read and participate in this thread are those, like myself, who have grown weary of the fear mongering


hmmm... there's that phrase again.



> All I can suggest at this point is for those of us who believe Cesar has something to teach us to try and ignore the enraged spoilers and their rants


What about monomer's rants? What rants you ask? See above and below.



> I think the man's simple appearance and unusual use of the language stops most people from more careful and thoughtful observations...


We are not allowed to offer opposing views, and yet again our motives are called into question. But shhhh... we're not supposed to respond or we're "enraged spoilers."



> BTW, a couple people have been PMing me their thoughts and stories about Cesar and I do enjoy it... however I think it would be nice if it were also shared on the open forum. I know I can't promise this thread will be a safe haven from ridicule for you but if we all share together in the open maybe we can show the spoilers what it means to be positive or maybe they will just go away.


The only people who have been ridiculed in this thread are those who follow beliefs that differ from Cesar and monomer. And all the while, being told we're not allowed to defend ourselves for risk of "spoiling" a "positive" thread. Again my point is, these comments coming from most members of the forum would result in moderators warning them to play nice... but not monomer, he is to be defended.



> Actually I don't mind a good rousing debate if it eventually leads to something (other than revenge motives that is) but when it never progresses past a certain point and then is repeated over and over again well... it has the appearance of nuttiness and begins to resemble a type of mental illness I think... that's when I feel it might be a better idea to explore other alternatives to simply repeating old positions. Yeah, I know just what you mean about it being draining... and to that I will add frustrating... and the combination of those two emotions can make it unpleasant to even witness let alone participate in. Believe me I do understand why some people would rather just PM their thoughts instead.


This post I quoted in its entirety. Apparently, stating repeatedly why you disagree with CM in the various threads that pop up is a sign of mental illness. But repeatedly stating why you adore him, that's a whole other story. This isn't the first time monomer has accused people on the forum of suffering from a mental illness (even if that original post was later altered to save face). 

So what exactly did I read that wasn't there? Let's see, we have baiting... check.... personal insults.... check.... intimidation... check.... condescension.... check. And all in one thread.... oops, make that one "positive" thread. You're right... I do have a problem with that, and by extension with a person who would post such things. I also have a problem with the fact that nothing is ever done about it. I don't, however, have a problem with you and hope we can agree to disagree on this. None of the frustration you may read in this thread is directed at you, but rather at this whole scene that continues to play out over and over and over again.

Julie and Jersey


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## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

Maybe if I ban about ten of you people things will get better.  Now there is an answer no one whats to hear.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

So ultimately another Cesar thread goes down the crapper by spewed intense negativity. I'm tired of all the pettiness that only a small number of people here can never quite seem to get past. If you best them in a debate, they will be out to get you forever as it now becomes the sole focus of their rage, to get even at every opportunity... they feel they are still trying to win some argument... yes I will say it again, I believe that type of obsession is not normal and thus represents instability as most people can actually let go of old arguments, walk away, lick their wounds and simply move on. All my supposed negative responses here have been to attacks made on this thread to prevent others from learning about Cesar.... same as all the old threads. I don't wish to continuously have to pick back up where it was left off... this is supposed to be a NEW approach get it? Jersey's Mom, your hatred for me is well documented and your obsession in this pursuit is made quite obvious in your postings else where as well as here... I need say nothing more, as your own words say far more about who you are than anything about me. Pity.

Rant on as I don't intend to feed your bizarre tirade with any more and this childish nonsense baiting of me and I will not let your bad attitude stop this thread just yet. I believe it may still be salvageable and do some good despite your best attempts to derail it.... please consider taking anger management, it would really do you a world of good. So pardon me if I refuse to recognize any more of your ranting in this thread as I will choose to ignore you and hope you haven't completely freaked all the normal members out... really intense negativity has a way of scaring the hell outta the regular folk...


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## T&T (Feb 28, 2008)

*WHERE'S CESAR WHEN WE NEED HIM ...*


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Julie,

Good to see you back! I've missed your posts!

-S


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

_*All my supposed negative responses here have been to attacks made on this thread to prevent others from learning about Cesar.... same as all the old threads.*_

Nobody is trying to prevent anybody from learning about CM. Those of us who don't worship him as you do, are presenting another opinion. It's as simple as that. The educated members of this forum can listen to both sides -- your adoring posts, posts by others citing possible cause for concern -- and come to their own conclusions.

It's a pity it can't be that simple.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

FlyingQuizini said:


> Julie,
> 
> Good to see you back! I've missed your posts!
> 
> -S


....Oh boy!


FlyingQuizini said:


> ...It's a pitty it can't be that simple.


A pity indeed...

I know I'm not the only old-timer here who sees the irony. Yes, I know the intent was at sarcasm but the reality is, coming from you that statement's filled with irony... sigh...


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

monomer said:


> ....Oh boy!
> 
> A pity indeed...
> 
> I know I'm not the only old-timer here who sees the irony. Yes, I know the intent was at sarcasm but the reality is, coming from you that statement's filled with irony... sigh...


Actually, it was a true and genuine statement. It's really too bad that we can't seem to have a CM discussion where we are *all* free to share our differing opinions. Agreeing to disagree in areas where our (the general membership of the forum) opinions fail to align is a respectful way to handle differences.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

FlyingQuizini said:


> ...It's really too bad that we can't seem to have a CM discussion where we are *all* free to share our differing opinions. Agreeing to disagree in areas where our (the general membership of the forum) opinions fail to align is a respectful way to handle differences.


True, but the reality is that after numerous attempts it has always failed... no need to cast blame as its merely a failure on everyone's part. So I thought to try something new... I really thought the request was very simple, ...if we have two separate threads then both viewpoints can still be aired without all the silly endless bickering and repetition and resulting revenge/hatred that spreads to other unrelated threads that subsequently always seems to follow a 'Cesar' thread. I actually work in an environment where we have heated discussions of far more consequence and importance than any Cesar thread and yet we all are able to leave that animosity at the door of the conference room and not allow it to bleed into our other daily interactions and group functioning. The pettiness and spitefulness that erupts on this forum from time to time is sooo unbelievably childish I'm always amazed (and dismayed as well) every time it occurs.

Steph, I know you've read enough of my postings in the past to allow me this much.... I dislike repeating old used arguments and so rarely ever repeat one. I like to keep trying something new and different to keep me out of a rut but also always hoping for a possible different outcome. This thread was simply another attempt at accomplishing that goal... but as this thread has now proved to me, I can't simply be the only one to try changing if the same old crowd keeps dogging me and trying to rehash the same old arguments... its takes both sides to effect a change. Killing this thread with negative arguing is not a win for anyone but I truly believe in some strange bizarre way several of you actually believe it does somehow constitute a 'win' over the 'evil' monomer. There really is something very wrong with not being able to simply move on and get past things. I don't go following around you and PG and Jersey's Mom (the other 3 major players have not violated this threads intent so I will not include their names) just to challenge you people in those threads trying to get even for some imagined insult or slight or whatever... yet, I can't be given the same courtesy in return? If one can't seem to debate and then simply move on past it, then perhaps one should not practice debating at all.

Believe me if you started a Cesar bashing only thread I would have no desire to read it... why would I? there's nothing in it for me... I would think the reverse to be true as well but if one is only looking for revenge for some past imagined offense then that would be motive enough to try and disrupt it. To anyone who has been around here long enough the motives are really quite obvious. You are right it is a pity...


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

What is a pity is that so many people with significant accomplishments in the dog world (meaning more than stories they tell themselves about what they did at the dog park today) have been bullied into censoring themselves because they're just sick of the patronizing monologues and unfounded accusations. I'm an open-minded hippie from California who has never made a cent off of training dogs in my life, so the lowest accusations (racism and financial motives) don't even apply to me, and I still don't usually post about Cesar because I just don't want to hear it anymore.

I do not remember any other poster being treated as badly as the professional trainers, reputable breeders, obedience and agility champions, behaviorists at veterinary schools, etc. Even the people who want Fluffy to have babies because she is soooo pretty, she lays like a frog so her hips must be fine, and she might not be purebread but that gives her Hybrid Vigor. In fact, that would probably receive several agreements that Fluffy is pretty and warnings to the evil breeders not to chase Fluffy's owner off (how many behaviorists, competitors, and reputable breeders have been "chased off" with hardly anyone caring?). 

And it's really not just because of monomer and the Cesar Millan discussions - it's also the attacks on breeders for (gasp!) pointing out holes in another breeder's OFA clearances, and the overall hostility toward anyone who hasn't been here as long as some but whose experience in dogs is exponentially more valuable than a couple of years of forum membership. What I'm starting to wonder is what on earth would be good enough for Stephanie, Julie, PG, etc to prove to the majority here that they actually do know something about dogs? What would be enough for their opinions to get the respect they deserve?


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

You've (Monomer) done a fine job killing the thread with negative arguing on your own. Rather than critisize people who don't agree with CM's methods, you could have simply posted your comments in favor of the man and his training.

I came to this thread willing to post the things I agree with regarding CM... and I did. However, as every story has two sides, I also said I disagree with several of his training methods. Period. End of story.

I find it interesting that you accuse Julie, PG and myself of following your threads around to challenge people. You've posted your fair share of All Hail Cesar messages on threads where the dominant opinion is that of concern for his methods... and, while I disagree with it, I believe you are entitled to your opinion, and not once have I ever suggested that you're jealous, less intelligent, mentally unstable or any of the other rude and disrespectful statements you've made while attempting to support your view on CM.

This thread would've likely faired a lot better had you have kept your initial editorial comments regarding *why* some people dislike CM and simply included your various posts in support of CM-style training. However, b/c some of us found your editorial comments to be quite rude, disrespectful and way off topic for your proposed thread, we added comments along the way. 

If at any point somebody wants to start a laundry list of CM-Pros, that's fine by me. Just please keep all the editorial commentary regarding those of us who may not feel the same way to yourself. Don't clutter the post with thinly-vailed insults and I'm sure you'll be more likely to achieve your intended goal.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Okay Katie the leaves only two left missing from the revenge attacks... have you graduated from high school yet? I think Steph, Laura, and Julie have already spoken for themselves no need to try and rally the troops here... you've effectively helped to destroy what was a thread started with good intentions... you feeling like a 'winner' yet? Sigh...


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

katieanddusty said:


> What I'm starting to wonder is what on earth would be good enough for Stephanie, Julie, PG, etc to prove to the majority here that they actually do know something about dogs? What would be enough for their opinions to get the respect they deserve?


Hey Katie,

Thanks for the shout out! Just to clarify, I have no general issues of feeling disrespected here on the forum... just the opposite. As a whole, the membership has been wonderfully supportive and appreciative, many even taking the time to PM me a word of thanks for tips and suggestions I post.

No secret that Monomer and I have a difference of opinion on the CM issue and I'll go so far as to say, based on posts alone, if I had to generalize, I'd say I don't much care for his attitude But hey - that's why cars come in different colors! Not sure how the others feel, but I wanted to clarify for myself.

-S


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

FlyingQuizini said:


> You've (Monomer) done a fine job killing the thread with negative arguing on your own. Rather than critisize people who don't agree with CM's methods, you could have simply posted your comments in favor of the man and his training.
> 
> I came to this thread willing to post the things I agree with regarding CM... and I did. However, as every story has two sides, I also said I disagree with several of his training methods. Period. End of story.
> 
> ...


There are no excuses, only your rationalizations... the truth is it didn't matter what I posted or did or didn't include in any posting... you and the few others were hell bent on getting 'even' and stomping on someone else's parade would suit you just fine. Save the excuses of trying to blame someone else for your doing, you'll only be selling it to your comrades in arms... any old-timers left reading this nonsense are laughing and staying out of it (I don't blame them)... and any newbies you all have long since chased off with this nasty bit of whining. You can now have this thread all to you and your company... you succeeded in making it painful for anyone to read or enjoy further. Thank you (and THAT is sarcasm)

Harrrumph!


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

monomer said:


> Okay Katie the leaves only two left missing from the revenge attacks... have you graduated from high school yet? I think Steph, Laura, and Julie have already spoken for themselves no need to try and rally the troops here... you've effectively helped to destroy what was a thread started with good intentions... you feeling like a 'winner' yet? Sigh...


You must get such joy from provoking people... Why complain about the degradation of your thread in one breath and then sling insults on the same thread in the next breath?

Just close the stupid thread and start again, sans editorial commentary, if a Pro CM thread is that important to you... But please realize that it is often the provoking nature of your comments that cause others to post in the first place.


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

Started with good intentions?

"Let's be positive and get the most from what this man has to offer instead of *trying to knock him down (and in the course attempt to elevate one's own ego and abilties... as too often motives are sadly transparent regardless of the attempts to guise it as saving innocent dogs from cruel punishment).*"

(And I find it completely irrelevant to this discussion, but since you obviously feel otherwise, I currently have sophomore standing at a university that is ranked #18 in the country, which I am attending thanks to a full scholarship for academic merit. I know, isn't it surprising that I'm dumb enough not to worship Cesar?)


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

monomer said:


> There are no excuses, only your rationalizations... the truth is it didn't matter what I posted or did or didn't include in any posting... you and the few others were hell bent on getting 'even' and stomping on someone else's parade would suit you just fine. Save the excuses of trying to blame someone else for your doing, you'll only be selling it to your comrades in arms... any old-timers left reading this nonsense are laughing and staying out of it (I don't blame them)... and any newbies you all have long since chased off with this nasty bit of whining. You can now have this thread all to you and your company... you succeeded in making it painful for anyone to read or enjoy further. Thank you (and THAT is sarcasm)
> 
> Harrrumph!


And of course, your contributions to this post have absolutely nothing to do with its downward spiral.


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## DelmarvaGold (Mar 7, 2006)

I really can not believe that you are allowed to continue to belittle the views of other forum members. If it were any one else they would be warned and or banned. 

I find it extremely rude that you suggest some of the forum members have a mental illness. You only started this thread to bait a few members in to a "fight". You know it and I know it. It's the same old tired tactic you've used before to stir things up when the forum has settled down. Or maybe I'm one of those people who have a mental illness?

The only rage I see is in your rant below when your post was dissected bit by bit. Your notion that some how you think you are superior is getting very tiresome. 



monomer said:


> So ultimately another Cesar thread goes down the crapper by spewed intense negativity. I'm tired of all the pettiness that only a small number of people here can never quite seem to get past. If you best them in a debate, they will be out to get you forever as it now becomes the sole focus of their rage, to get even at every opportunity... they feel they are still trying to win some argument... yes I will say it again, I believe that type of obsession is not normal and thus represents instability as most people can actually let go of old arguments, walk away, lick their wounds and simply move on. All my supposed negative responses here have been to attacks made on this thread to prevent others from learning about Cesar.... same as all the old threads. I don't wish to continuously have to pick back up where it was left off... this is supposed to be a NEW approach get it? Jersey's Mom, your hatred for me is well documented and your obsession in this pursuit is made quite obvious in your postings else where as well as here... I need say nothing more, as your own words say far more about who you are than anything about me. Pity.
> 
> Rant on as I don't intend to feed your bizarre tirade with any more and this childish nonsense baiting of me and I will not let your bad attitude stop this thread just yet. I believe it may still be salvageable and do some good despite your best attempts to derail it.... please consider taking anger management, it would really do you a world of good. So pardon me if I refuse to recognize any more of your ranting in this thread as I will choose to ignore you and hope you haven't completely freaked all the normal members out... really intense negativity has a way of scaring the hell outta the regular folk...


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## FranH (May 8, 2005)

This thread has turned into something that has nothing to do with Cesar. 
We're done.


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