# What to do? Advice



## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Okay so here is our situation/dilema! I have the summers off because I teach  and I was training two puppies from florida. With the money I was getting from one of the pups, I sent Remi off to our trainers to get back into force to pile and hoping to get that SH...

Well, Remi is very driven on marks, but when it comes to doing "yard work" she gets bored and does not like it.

She knows what she is supposed to be doing, but just does not want to do it. She has been with the trainer since the beginning of June and I am picking her up this weekend.

Well, first off, he ALWAYS tells me Remi was not bred to hunt. And I can certainly understand that because she comes from conformation lines not SH/MH or Field lines. He said so I am expecting her to do something she was not bred to do.

I hate to give up on her. He works her 1st in the morning before the rest of the dogs at 6 am. He said when it is cooler, she does a little better.

He is a very honest trainer and would tell me the truth. I asked him "what would you do if this were your dog?" I told me "I would Breed her, and love on her." 

I hate to give up on her...but I realize that she can not do blinds without force to pile. It is so detrimental. I guess I am at a ends with her 

It stinks, because I know she has so much potential. But, I need to be real with myself about what she can/will do. I guess back to agility and her RN to get her VC.

Anney: I was thinking about when it got cooler, and when they are back in pensacola, driving over and letting Sean look at her. Different perspective. Or Mitch White.

Has anybody else went through this? Getting bored with yard work? What methods did you use?

Of course, I guess this was one of my goals for her...maybe not one of Remi's goals for herself. She would do great at duck and marks....but blinds, I am not sure what else I can do to change that.

Thanks guys.


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

One thing I've learned in life with people is that you will be happier once you learn to accept them for who they are instead of focusing on who you wish they were. The same probably applies to dogs. Sounds like you've got a great companion dog who can't do some of the hunt and field stuff. Accept it and appreciate that she's a great companion dog.

If you have the room, time, energy, and money to get a second dog, look for one from a hunting line or who is already a trained hunter. If not, when your current dog passes away from old age in the distant future, make your next dog one that is more likely to have the qualities you're looking for.

In the meantime, enjoy your dog for what she brings to the table, and accept that she isn't perfect or good at everything. My dog is awesome, but sometimes he acts like a jerk. I've learned to accept it and love him for who he is.  Nobody's perfect. In fact, his owner (me) sometimes acts like a jerk also.  He probably picked it up from me.


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

I didn't understand half of what you were saying - "force to pile?" - but what I got was that you're trying to get your dog to be something he isn't. You're not happy, and I doubt is he is, either. Accept him for who he is, and maybe you'll find his "thing" along the way, something that will make both of you happy.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Thanks for the post, but I have already accepted her for who she is or for whatever she can or can not do. I posted this in the hunting and retrieving forum to get advice from experienced members to see if there is anything else I can do to get her more interested in pile work. (which is her weakness). 

I would not have put her through hunt training to begin with if I did not believe she had what it took or IF she DID NOT Like it! haha


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

laprincessa said:


> I didn't understand half of what you were saying - "force to pile?" - but what I got was that you're trying to get your dog to be something he isn't. You're not happy, and I doubt is he is, either. Accept him for who he is, and maybe you'll find his "thing" along the way, something that will make both of you happy.


This is the hunting and field session! Seriously?? I do not accept my dog by trying to get past this hump in training??

Are you kidding me?????? :doh:


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Why do you have Remi with the pro? Maybe the pro is telling you that you need to modify your goals.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Ok, I read your post several times.
First, Tito isn't from SH/MH or field lines either. According to your trainer, then he wasn't bred to hunt, either. Except he's a golden retriever, so he WAS bred to hunt, and to be honest he's pretty talented. I feel upset by the trainer constantly telling you that you are trying to get her to do something she wasn't bred to do. 
So my knee jerk reaction is I would absolutely get another opinion from another trainer. A different perspective would be well worth having. Maybe the trainer doesn't want to, or have time to, put the effort in with a dog that is a little more difficult with drill work than some of the other dogs.
You cannot train a dog to be birdy if they are not, but you are saying that's not her problem. You will have a hard time if she hates water. If you had a dog that walked out, looked at the bird, wandered off, refused to pick it up, I'd feel differently. But that's not Remi's case. If she likes birds, which you say she does, and she likes water, then I think you can get past the other stuff.
Does she have to like it? No. Does she have to do it? Yes. 
Tito is NOT a big fan of pile work, either. He always figures he can get it done faster if we do it HIS way instead. But he had to get it done to get the candy (birds) that comes afterward. His trainer uses birds as the reward for a job well done in the yard drills. We have kept the yard drills to a minimum with him, and used birds as much as possible. 
I would not give up on her. 
How many tries did it take for her JH?


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Here are my thoughts then I have to get back to cutting out magnets LOL

I don't know who your trainer is or his methods, but trainers can make a WORLD of difference. If SH+ is your goal for Remi, don't give up after just one trainer. She didn't get BOB her first time in the breed ring, did she? Everyone is different. Every dog doesn't jive with every trainer. 

Flip side : Assuming the trainer is a modern, moderate trainer and is using a reasonable program, then this is a rather telling indication of Remi's temperament. Learning to handle for advanced field work is THE BIGGEST INDICATOR of a dog's working temperament. It shows what kind of gumption/gut/courage/perseverance/bottom the dog has, along with their innate trainability, biddability and intelligence. These are extremely important traits for a golden retriever! This is my huge peeve with show breeders who never get this far to KNOW what their dogs have or lack!! Even with a JH you NEVER see this side of their temperament. If nothing else this should make you think long and hard about who you breed Remi to, if this is important to you and you want to improve on her.

Other thoughts : 
Yardwork is one of my favorite parts of field training. My dogs came out of yard work with GREAT attitudes and run HARD and really enjoy it. However it is not for the faint of heart and it takes a lot of finesse to come out of it with a dog with a great attitude. There are days when I literally cried because it was such a disaster. It really is do or die at this point, in the dog's field career.
My good friend is in the thick of single-T/pile work with her young bitch. This dog has fought her EVERY STEP OF THE WAY. She has done EVERY avoidance behavior imaginable, even some I've never even seen or heard of! She doesn't respond quickly to corrections for these behaviors. There have been MANY times I've thought to myself, maybe field work just is not this dog's future. The amount of work her trainer has put into her to get her to this point is astounding. The tide finally turned when her trainer turned up the pressure and took a zero tolerance policy on avoidance behavior. It was this or give up. She'd tried being nice. She started out thinking the dog was a prima donna (she literally told me once, that the dog flipped out getting corrected on a ONE), very little pressure or she would fold, and guess what, now the dog freakin runs on a four and is doing SO MUCH BETTER. Before she was nagging the dog with little corrections that only made it unpleasant but not enough to change the dog's mind. With more pressure came better compliance, less confusion and a WAY BETTER attitude!!! The dog is doing decidedly better. I'm not saying more pressure is the key but I am saying that with these show bred golden bitches, it takes a trainer who is willing to do what it takes and not give up.

Wish we lived closer and I could watch her work.


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## MarieP (Aug 21, 2011)

I agree with Barb and Anney. All the dogs I know would prefer ducks and marks to yard work. A good trainer should be able to figure out how to motivate the dog. It's possible that the trainer who has Remi just isn't on the same page as her. I wouldn't give up on her yet. Get another opinion from another trainer.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

hotel4dogs said:


> Ok, I read your post several times.
> First, Tito isn't from SH/MH or field lines either. According to your trainer, then he wasn't bred to hunt, either. Except he's a golden retriever, so he WAS bred to hunt, and to be honest he's pretty talented. I feel upset by the trainer constantly telling you that you are trying to get her to do something she wasn't bred to do.
> So my knee jerk reaction is I would absolutely get another opinion from another trainer. A different perspective would be well worth having. Maybe the trainer doesn't want to, or have time to, put the effort in with a dog that is a little more difficult with drill work than some of the other dogs.
> You cannot train a dog to be birdy if they are not, but you are saying that's not her problem. You will have a hard time if she hates water. If you had a dog that walked out, looked at the bird, wandered off, refused to pick it up, I'd feel differently. But that's not Remi's case. If she likes birds, which you say she does, and she likes water, then I think you can get past the other stuff.
> ...


Nope, she lives birds and water. we have went through 3-handing casting and stopping on the whistle. I just think she gets bored..if that makes sense. She is a very go-go bitch. She might run the first 2 or 3 times to back piles great...then she will run half way and stop and turn around and look at u. Then i would recast her and she would go. Does she run fast to the back pile like she does marks? no, but i do want a straight line.

I do not think the trainer put to much pressure on her bc he felt it would ruin the drive she has.

oh and she failed her first jh at the water part bc she did not see the duck bc of the sun!! oh well. but passed the next 4.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

K9-Design said:


> Here are my thoughts then I have to get back to cutting out magnets LOL
> 
> I don't know who your trainer is or his methods, but trainers can make a WORLD of difference. If SH+ is your goal for Remi, don't give up after just one trainer. She didn't get BOB her first time in the breed ring, did she? Everyone is different. Every dog doesn't jive with every trainer.
> 
> ...


Could not agree more. Thats what gets me though....she is easily trained with everything. Thats what is so frustrating with this. Maybe I will try sean for a different opinion and go from there.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

kfayard said:


> Could not agree more. Thats what gets me though....she is easily trained with everything. Thats what is so frustrating with this. Maybe I will try sean for a different opinion and go from there.


Yeah but this is hard  If it were easy everyone would do it (like JH).
Have seen OTCH and MACH dogs have REALLY tough times with simple yardwork because of the pressure and precision involved. 
When I'm doing yardwork I tend to use a LOT of praise but demand a LOT of effort. Have friends who use a lot less praise and a lot less pressure and their dogs are BORED and offer up a lot of avoidance behaviors. 
It's hard to comprehend the amount of work for both trainer and dog if you're not doing it yourself. To us, handling is a really easy concept. We can explain to someone completely unfamiliar with field work the basic concepts, and they can understand it. Not so with a dog. That communication takes a LOT of development between dog and handler. It's not simple obedience.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

K9-Design said:


> Yeah but this is hard  If it were easy everyone would do it (like JH).
> Have seen OTCH and MACH dogs have REALLY tough times with simple yardwork because of the pressure and precision involved.
> When I'm doing yardwork I tend to use a LOT of praise but demand a LOT of effort. Have friends who use a lot less praise and a lot less pressure and their dogs are BORED and offer up a lot of avoidance behaviors.
> It's hard to comprehend the amount of work for both trainer and dog if you're not doing it yourself. To us, handling is a really easy concept. We can explain to someone completely unfamiliar with field work the basic concepts, and they can understand it. Not so with a dog. That communication takes a LOT of development between dog and handler. It's not simple obedience.


Yea, trainer does not give praises. Maybe a good girl every now and then but that is it. Not sure that would make a difference anyways. I might try to video tape her the weekend before I take her back.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

I think it depends on how important it is to you and how much work you are willing to put into it. Just was talking with a friend who has a friend with a CH/MH lab who HATES water. Yet the dog is a MH but not without good training and hard work. It can be done. Learn to train the dog you have it will make you a better trainer...shoot as my pro told me while you may not get the satisfaction of the higher titles, learning to work and train with a more difficult dog will teach you more.

However I think it is really important to be completely honest about your dog's abilities especially when it comes to breeding.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

kfayard said:


> Nope, she lives birds and water. we have went through 3-handing casting and stopping on the whistle. I just think she gets bored.


Please understand that my comments are not a judgment of this dog and/or her training. They are only a reaction to the information you’ve provided, coupled with 35 years of experience in field training. I hope they may be helpful.

Often, when a person sees a dog’s lackluster work on drills, they assume it’s because they’re bored, or hate yard work. Sometimes that is correct. More often it isn’t; it’s how the work is being done. That doesn’t mean it’s too much pressure, or abuse. Far more often it’s a combination of inadequate balance in the overall regimen & perhaps misreading the dog.


kfayard said:


> If that makes sense. She is a very go-go bitch. She might run the first 2 or 3 times to back piles great...then she will run half way and stop and turn around and look at u. Then I would recast her and she would go. Does she run fast to the back pile like she does marks? no, but I do want a straight line.


If your dog is really a “very go-go bitch” I doubt her conformation lines are a prime inhibiting factor. But it may be a factor inasmuch as she may need to be brought along differently. A different pace, a more diverse daily routine, a greater balance of marks vs. drills perhaps – that sort of thing may have a great impact. But that great desire to retrieve is either in there, or it’s not. She doesn’t know what it says on her papers. She’s just a good dog…a _different_ good dog, but a good one it seems to me.

With regard to the 'straight line'; if you're in Basics, as it sounds, it's too soon to nag her about lines.


kfayard said:


> I do not think the trainer put too much pressure on her bc he felt it would ruin the drive she has.


Pressure actually enhances drive in some dogs, although you don’t hear that reported much. What suppresses drive, in relation to pressure, is unfair and/or excessive pressure. Pressure isn’t a bad thing, in and of itself.

I would love to see some video of your dog in training.

EvanG


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

EvanG said:


> Pressure actually enhances drive in some dogs, although you don’t hear that reported much. What suppresses drive, in relation to pressure, is unfair and/or excessive pressure. Pressure isn’t a bad thing, in and of itself.
> 
> I would love to see some video of your dog in training.
> 
> EvanG


Great post Evan and I agree 100%


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

GoldenSail said:


> I think it depends on how important it is to you and how much work you are willing to put into it. Just was talking with a friend who has a friend with a CH/MH lab who HATES water. Yet the dog is a MH but not without good training and hard work. It can be done. Learn to train the dog you have it will make you a better trainer...shoot as my pro told me while you may not get the satisfaction of the higher titles, learning to work and train with a more difficult dog will teach you more.
> 
> However I think it is really important to be completely honest about your dog's abilities especially when it comes to breeding.


Okay, I do need to clear up something about the training. : The reason I had been using a Pro is because I honestly do not have time to train every day or any time during the week. I teach and coach and during the week I do not get home till after dark. I felt like I was doing a disservice to my dog by not training, so I sent her off. 

This summer I had two of my dog's breeder's puppies, so I used that money to try and get her past the pile work. 

Scariest thing which I know I have to get over is: " I did not want to mess her up" or " not do something right"

I do train her  I go up and train with her and the trainer every other weekend. He lets me know what she is doing and her progress and then I do it. I run her at hunt test.

I have been training my younger boy...because no way I could afford to send 2 dogs out with a pro! He has already been through holding drills and force fetch and waiting for JH test to come up in october. All I did by myself and I am sooo proud of that! So, hopefully that will continue.

I just did not want you guys to get the idea that I was not doing anything and I had no idea what kind of training she was getting. The closest trainers I have around me to train on weekends or whenever are 2 hours away...

But, I agree about her abilities and I will love her NO less if she does not obtain a SH...then I know what to strive for when choosing a stud 

Thanks so much.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

EvanG said:


> Please understand that my comments are not a judgment of this dog and/or her training. They are only a reaction to the information you’ve provided, coupled with 35 years of experience in field training. I hope they may be helpful.
> 
> Often, when a person sees a dog’s lackluster work on drills, they assume it’s because they’re bored, or hate yard work. Sometimes that is correct. More often it isn’t; it’s how the work is being done. That doesn’t mean it’s too much pressure, or abuse. Far more often it’s a combination of inadequate balance in the overall regimen & perhaps misreading the dog.If your dog is really a “very go-go bitch” I doubt her conformation lines are a prime inhibiting factor. But it may be a factor inasmuch as she may need to be brought along differently. A different pace, a more diverse daily routine, a greater balance of marks vs. drills perhaps – that sort of thing may have a great impact. But that great desire to retrieve is either in there, or it’s not. She doesn’t know what it says on her papers. She’s just a good dog…a _different_ good dog, but a good one it seems to me.
> 
> ...


Thanks Evan. I am not going to give up on her just yet. I am taking her home this weekend and I am going to try something a little different with back pile drills. The trainer never likes praises...maybe "a good girl" every now and then and/or a pat on the head. Nothing else to get her excited.

My husband and I were talking about this yesterday and he said everyone has good suggestions. I honestly wanted to switch trainers a while ago and he told me no because he liked our trainer. Well now, he agrees with me. It is not that I do not think the trainer is good...he is a wonderful trainer. I just think Remi needs something different. But, then again, maybe not.... We will see.

I know he would not put pressure on her like the labs he has. Remi has been the only golden that he has trained in quite a few years. 

I will try to post some videos of her running marks and doing back piles, maybe a little 3-handed casting. She loves doing 3-handed casting never gets bored with that! And you guys can tell me what you think. 

Thank all of you so much for your input.


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## MarieP (Aug 21, 2011)

kfayard said:


> Okay, I do need to clear up something about the training. : The reason I had been using a Pro is because I honestly do not have time to train every day or any time during the week. I teach and coach and during the week I do not get home till after dark. I felt like I was doing a disservice to my dog by not training, so I sent her off.
> 
> This summer I had two of my dog's breeder's puppies, so I used that money to try and get her past the pile work.
> 
> ...


I assumed that you WERE training her, along with a pro.  I completely understand the lack of money and time. 

I also agree with your other post in that she may not be with the trainer for HER (or you). Goldens aren't labs, but they also aren't the fragile dogs that some trainers think they are. I do praise and fun bumpers during yard work. The second he turns toward me after grabbing a bumper from the pile, I woop and holler to get him driving back to me. But I also had to work through some no-goes with more pressure than I anticipated. But once he figured out that I wasn't kidding around, he started being more focused and driven. 

Anyway, good luck. I wouldn't give up on her, assuming you have the time to devote to her.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

mlopez said:


> I assumed that you WERE training her, along with a pro.  I completely understand the lack of money and time.
> 
> I also agree with your other post in that she may not be with the trainer for HER (or you). Goldens aren't labs, but they also aren't the fragile dogs that some trainers think they are. I do praise and fun bumpers during yard work. The second he turns toward me after grabbing a bumper from the pile, I woop and holler to get him driving back to me. But I also had to work through some no-goes with more pressure than I anticipated. But once he figured out that I wasn't kidding around, he started being more focused and driven.
> 
> Anyway, good luck. I wouldn't give up on her, assuming you have the time to devote to her.


Thank-you. And yes, I think a different approach might be needed. The trainer does have around 10 or so other dogs to train and I do not think he really has a lot of time to put into her. 

Good thing is I am not doing competition cheerleading this year!! Wahoo! So, I will be home in plenty enough time to run through things for both of the dogs.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

kfayard said:


> Thanks Evan. I am not going to give up on her just yet. I am taking her home this weekend and I am going to try something a little different with back pile drills. The trainer never likes praises...maybe "a good girl" every now and then and/or a pat on the head. Nothing else to get her excited.


God bless you! Far too many pros are lacking in genuine praise, while many dogs thrive on it. I don't believe in excess of any kind. But well timed, genuine praise for compliance is just what most of them need.

It's not a "Golen thing". It's a "Dog thing".

EvanG


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

It sounds like the pro and the Style of training he uses are not a good fit for your girl. Anney and Evan have both been spot on with their posts as far as I am reading it. I have to be very careful with my girls to maintain that balance of enthusiasm and control. I cannot do drills with them the way I see some of my friend's dogs. You need a pro who can read and adapt to the individual dog. I think Mitch would be a good person to consult with-he works with lots of dogs who do not have that stereotypical field lab go-go-go attitude and gets a lot out of them.


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## Tatnall (May 20, 2008)

I am late to this but will chime in FWIW. I don't know the pro involved but I would not give up on a dog at this stage. If you need to use a pro, get a second opinion. Many pros can make a living by training dogs that fit well with what they do but are not so good with ones that are different. They can't or won't always 'train the dog they have' to paraphrase Evan. You have to give him credit for letting you know it isn't working out instead of simply taking your check and not making progress. I would try to find a pro that has trained successfully lots of different dogs from different backgrounds.

At some point, you may have to come to terms with a dogs limitations. I was so sad when my pro told me it would be a lot cheaper to buy a better dog than keep training my baby boy if I wanted to compete at the AA level. I appreciated his advice though and we will run him in Qs and the occasional HT. That however is a totally different thing. You aren't looking to win FTs and your dog sounds like it has the desire, so get a second opinion before giving up


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