# Starve dog to create food motivation??



## ckshin05 (May 6, 2012)

What i do with Darla. Is I give her kibble which is Fromms. Then I also buy tasty treats like duck feet or sweet potato chips cooked in chicken broth. Both are from dogs. She loves them. But those treats I rarely give them to her. So she knows she has to do tricks to earn them. I also brush it past her mouth by covering it with my hand when she doesn't listen. She learns quickly.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

One thing to throw out there.... is he food motivated at home? Do you train with food at home? 

If he is successfully food motivated at home, what about an intermediate location? Good example is a quiet store front or school parking lot or tennis court. Somewhere where you won't have a lot of people or other dogs around to distract and up the stress levels for both you and your dog.

The reason why I ask is my Danny back when I was training with him would get a nervous stomach in public. I think part of it was excitement about being in around other dogs and people. 

I couldn't use food in class or around shows. He would just spit it out and it just didn't work.

It did work at home while training... and while it never worked in class or shows where the stress level was too high, treats did work in other places where I trained on my own (store fronts, etc). 

Bertie is very similar to Danny - though not to the same degree. Food is not as motivating as other things, but he can be motivated by food in most cases. I've had him spit out steak pieces in the show ring. Other times he's been all over the steak. It depends on the level of excitement or stress.

Speaking with his breeder who is a very long time pro handler and her background before conformation was obedience and low level field.... her suggestion to me was to not feed my dog the night before or the morning of a dog show. And if doing a cluster, I'd just be feeding 1/2 the amounts I'd normally feed at night, no morning meals. 

A lot of the time - this is just to help make bait work better, especially with a boy dog whose head may be spinning because of everything going on around him. And yes, I've found it works very well. 

For obedience classes though - I think it's a little over the top starving a dog just for class. The most I'd do is making sure they're not fed supper BEFORE an evening class. Because I don't want to take them out to train if their stomachs are full. Probably wouldn't matter since my dogs train before and after they eat any average evening, and furthermore if left to their own devices would probably eat 10 times as much food as I normally feed them anyway. 

If a training class is over reliant on treats for training - to me that means the trainer does not have a diverse tool box they can work from. Meaning, they don't know how to train a dog who is not food motivated. So if you absolutely can't get your dog interested in treats in class.... you need to be given other tools to get through to your dog.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Yes and no. No decent trainer would ever recommend truly starving a dog just to make them hungrier, that is ridiculous and cruel. However MANY and I'd dare say MOST pets could afford to go on a diet, and most pets are offered a litany of tasty treats all day long by their owners and not made to do anything to earn them. So show up in a very distracting, confusing environment and then be asked to actually work for food? Not very likely. Reduce the dog's food intake at mealtimes and suddenly food is more important. Training goes better, dog is healthier for it. Is this a bad thing?
My obedience instructor insists that dogs be hungry when trained and be really drivey for food. She's also the first to tell people to quit training and get the dog's weight down -- you cannot expect the dog to work for food if they aren't hungry. It's finding the right balance. 
Praise and pets will only get you so far in competitive obedience (if that is your goal-- not sure). Some things you really do need food to help shape it. Once the food luring is done often you can get rid of the food and praise/reward by other means.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I actually find my dogs do their best work right after they've eaten dinner.


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## Max's Dad (Apr 23, 2012)

Not feeding an adequate diet to a dog to make the dog more food motivated seems to me to be a form of animal cruelty. A pet should receive the the food he/she needs with no strings attached. I would not use a trainer who would withhold food.

Our last Golden, Chewy, was not food motivated. However, she did well in her obedience class and even did some agility. Max, on the other hand, will do anything for a treat--whether he just finished dinner, or had not had a meal for hours.


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## sdhgolden (Aug 13, 2012)

One alternative you could use instead of starving your dog is to only feed them during training. So if you feed your dog one cup of food in the morning and one cup at night you can do a training session in the morning and a training session at night. If that's not practical you can do both cups at night. Or do multiple sessions throughout the day. What ever works for you. You would only do this for a week or two. Never feed the dog with a bowl during that time. That way he associates food with training and working. Also your dog gets the proper amount of food. My behaviorist said she did that with her dog and she quickly became more food motivated.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Loisiana said:


> I actually find my dogs do their best work right after they've eaten dinner.


But are you reinforcing things in your training with food? 
Most goldens do have a bottomless pit for a stomach. I could easily train Fisher with food for hours on end. Slater and Bally not so much. I'd be shooting myself in the foot to train them for food on a full stomach.


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

It doesn't sound nice to me. But context matters. 

If I was told to starve my dog to motivate them I would move on. If I was asked to not feed my dog before class I would have no issue.

Is the trainer only one dimensional in their training? I'm sure there's more than 2 non-food-motivated dogs out there. 

A lot of people use a special play toy that is only used for training to motivate their dog. A friend of mine uses a Frisbee. His dog will do anything for it.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Personally, I would look for a different trainer.

There are many ways to train a dog without food if he truly is not food motivated - toys, personal play, PREMACK etc These should all be in your toolbox even when your dog is food motivated.

Consider upping the value of the food - garlicky baked meat(steak liver, chicken), cheese of various kinds etc. If your dog is not active and/or has a tendency to gain weight, adjust his food accordingly. My dogs get many treats during training with 2 full meals a day - they are fed primarily raw but still often need carbs added to maintain their weight even with all the treats.

You need to train your dog (for competition) to work extended periods of time without food but with just praise & personal play, so starving a dog and expected it to carry over in the ring might well backfire if you don't have other rewards/re-inforcers. 

FWIW My dogs almost always train after eating. Training becomes highly motivating by itself within a fairly short time if they enjoy their training time.


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## Eowyn (Aug 29, 2013)

I would ask if I could sit in and observe a class if I were you. That way you can see how she trains, what methods are being used, and make a more informed decision. That way you can make an informed decision as to whether or not you want to take the class.


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## goldlover68 (Jun 17, 2013)

What I have learned about trainers in general, is that when they present a method to training that does not sound or feel right to me, I will not use that trainer. I would say move on and find someone who is agreeable to you.


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## Wenderwoman (Jan 7, 2013)

I would never starve my dog. I would just look for a treat she loved but she's always been food motivated. I've learned that my dog absolutely LOVES certain treats (popcorn and her star treat toy). At best, I'd train right before meal time rather than "starve" them. 

In my opinion, a hungry dog might have more anxiety or restless energy which would make it difficult to concentrate. I know lots of people that get cranky when they are hungry so I imagine dogs would too.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Dogs are set up metabolically to eat once every week to 10 days (seriously). While they might be "hungrier" if you haven't fed them before class, you are by no means *starving* them. You'd have to deny them food for many days before you are starving them. 
I cannot imagine any trainer suggesting not feeding your dogs for many days in order to get more cooperation. If that's the case, RUN.
Since I have no context for how it was said (tone of voice, what else was said, etc) I totally agree with Eowyn, go observe a class and make your decision. But if it just plain "feels wrong" to you, trust your instincts.
I've had 2 dogs who were very food motivated, and now one who is only mildly food motivated. But he responds very well to praise and play, so you might try more of that to see if it works better for you as well.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I cannot tell you how many dogs I get here at the pet hotel that are morbidly obese and the owners tell me "he's a really picky eater". (NOT AT ALL implying that about the OP here, just making a comment).



K9-Design said:


> However MANY and I'd dare say MOST pets could afford to go on a diet, and most pets are offered a litany of tasty treats all day long by their owners and not made to do anything to earn them.


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## jenlaur (Jun 24, 2009)

In our puppy class, the trainer asked us not to feed the pups after noon. Class was at 7. While I guess this worked for most and honestly I can see nothing wrong with this, my dogs have always been very food motivated. I have always used their food for training. My 5 year old is a difficult walker and I find that if I add some cheese to the food I'm using on her walks it works well. Bottom line is you have to do what you're comfortable with. I never withheld food with Kona and he did fine at puppy class.


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## golfgal (Dec 31, 2013)

Thanks for all the suggestions and comments. All food for thought (sorry couldn't resist). Murphy's 65lbs at 13mths old and very lean so obesity is not a concern but I'm glad it was mentioned. 

I have no issues with cutting back food before class or doing training before meal times so they'll respond to food. That wasn't what this trainer suggested and you're all correct, it made me uncomfortable so I thought it best to move on. A friend mentioned today this a technique used in the movie industry a fair bit but usually cuz they deal with dogs that are often not easily trained breeds, so perhaps that's where it came from. 

Megora - it's a context thing. 90% of the time I can use normal food at home for training and it's all fine. Out on walks, in places doing training, food rarely needed but generally responsive. I mean he did escalators the second time without food and never used it again. 

In classes, learning something new - it depends. Food of little interest which is why the previous trainer had said use different levels of treats to increase motivation to shape the behavior. More interested in watching others and then will usually just do it. 

Trying to move into other types of training which is why I had wanted some more training 'tool's other than just food.


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