# Was that a snarl or golden nose wrinkle "smile"



## Kinjal (Dec 26, 2011)

Hi all. Hope you are all well. Okay, so I've started to notice when Gabbar is laying down next to me on the floor chewing a toy, I stroke him and he's fine, carries on chewing his toy, but if I like tickle his muzzle I notice he stops chewing and wrinkles his nose and his lip goes back as a snarl. He doesn't make a single noise when he does it and he doesn't put teeth on skin or anything. I ignore it and don't pull away and carry on stroking him and he goes back to chewing toy. I notice he does this sometimes to me if I have to do the cesar Milan touch ( fingers like a claw and tap him on the hind legs) when he doesn't take heed to my verbal correction when he's pulling at something etc..

Has anyone ever seen this? Gabbar is 5 months and 2 weeks. Also do they ever out grow chewing sticks and rocks and other such material? I've notice he'll pick up a rock, lie down and be chewing and mouthing it, then spitting the rock out... It's weird, as I keep correcting him ...


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

That sounds like a snarl. 

I wouldn't bother him when he's chewing on things. If he's raises his lip, even if he doesn't turn his head - it's a warning to you. I'd tell him to knock it off when it happens, but I would not often put him in the position where this happens. 

Same thing with the snarling when you are grabbing his leg.


----------



## Tucker's mommy (Nov 9, 2011)

Hey there - yes, Tucker does that snarly nose wrinkle too, - usually when he's getting really mouthy with us inside - he'll sit right in front of us, or get into that play bow pose and lay down and do it. Sometimes he barks, too while giving the wrinkle. We usually put him in his crate for a very short timeout when it happens - and all is well after a few minutes. I hope you get more responses, as I'm curious to know what that face is all about too - it's as if he's testing us when he does it, but it's clearly when he's vying for attention or getting too wound up.


----------



## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

Would you like it if someone tickled your lip when you were chewing on something? It's probably an involuntary reaction - but I have to ask why you would do that to him if he's contentedly chewing on something, and you have no problems with him guarding stuff otherwise?


----------



## Kinjal (Dec 26, 2011)

Hi, actually we do have treat guarding issues we are working on (bones, Raw hide). But never with toys, etc... Okay, I see your point, I will keep my hands away from the muzzle... But if he does it and I want to correct it, how should I?


----------



## Tanyac (Jun 18, 2008)

Kinjal said:


> Hi, actually we do have treat guarding issues we are working on (bones, Raw hide). But never with toys, etc... Okay, I see your point, I will keep my hands away from the muzzle... But if he does it and I want to correct it, how should I?


I would say rather than a "correction" a term such as "redirection" is more appropriate. By raising his lip your pup is telling you he isn't happy with you being near to him when he has a toy. That is his only way of communicating this emotion to you.

With anything like this, and I've raised four Goldens from puppies now, I leave well alone when they've got something like a bone. After all, if you choose to give them something very high value, why would you immediately want to take it off them? If the pup picks something up they shouldn't, I would always swap the item with something more valuable. 

I taught my pups to bring things like balls back to me by always having a second ball and immediately throwing it, causing them to drop the ball they had to go and get the second ball. I then pick up the ball, ready to throw when they return. See, I always have "what they want", and can now take something like a ball from them with no issues.

Of course there is always a time when they catch hold of something you really don't want them to get and this is the time when you're grateful for all the swapping & non forceful gestures beforehand!

To be honest, I wouldn't blame any puppy for getting cheesed off if everything is always taken away, just because the new owner thinks they should be able to right?

As for sticks and stones outside, I don't worry about these things too much (would rather they didn't chew things like this really), if you can't totally clear these things out from your outside areas, someone once said to* "choose your battles"*. This is so true when raising puppies, and I've always tried to remember not to get torn up with the little things they do, or try to control every single aspect of their existence, it'll drive you crazy!

Now to the wrinkly nose Golden grin! I have had two dogs who would do this when stroking their face just under their ear. You have to stroke the tickly spot just right, and they involuntarily curl their top lip up on that side! It's so funny to see & has had us in stitches every time. Tickle both sides at the same time and you have a dog grinning from ear to ear. Neither of my girls do this but both boys have. Must get the camera ready for next time it happens...:


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> Now to the wrinkly nose Golden grin! I have had two dogs who would do this when stroking their face just under their ear. You have to stroke the tickly spot just right, and they involuntarily curl their top lip up on that side! It's so funny to see & has had us in stitches every time. Tickle both sides at the same time and you have a dog grinning from ear to ear. Neither of my girls do this but both boys have. Must get the camera ready for next time it happens...:


My guy does this too.  

My vet never saw that before with other goldens - burst out laughing when I showed it to her (I was making sure it wasn't something WRONG with him).


----------



## Tanyac (Jun 18, 2008)

Megora said:


> My guy does this too.
> 
> My vet never saw that before with other goldens - burst out laughing when I showed it to her (I was making sure it wasn't something WRONG with him).



LOL!!! Soooo funny, perhaps we need to start another thread to find out how many Goldens (sure it's not JUST Goldens) have this "tickly spot"!


----------



## quilter (Sep 12, 2011)

Tanyac said:


> I taught my pups to bring things like balls back to me by always having a second ball and immediately throwing it, causing them to drop the ball they had to go and get the second ball. I then pick up the ball, ready to throw when they return. See, I always have "what they want", and can now take something like a ball from them with no issues.


My pup takes the first ball with him to get the second ball! Then he tries to push the second ball back to us with his nose. The whole thing falls apart when we throw the third ball. But it's fun to watch him think about it. Which one do I drop? Which one do I want? Can I pick up two and push one?

As for the grin vs. growl, I suppose it's all in the body language. If he stops moving, stiffens up, stares at you, and raises his lips, he's telling you to back off. If he does a play bow, waves the bone in your face, and prances around, then he's playing.


----------



## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

Megora said:


> My guy does this too.
> 
> My vet never saw that before with other goldens - burst out laughing when I showed it to her (I was making sure it wasn't something WRONG with him).


My Jasper does this too, but only on one side. And it makes him uncomfortable, like he seems to think he's lifting his lip at me.


----------



## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

*Millan's claw*-hand techniques and Jean Donaldson's techniques in her book "Mine" are totally different types of training methods and it may be very confusing to Gabbar to be training using both methods.

Are you taking any training classes with Gabbar yet?


----------



## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Sounds his guarding issues are not getting better but instead being transferred to his toys. When he raised his lips did you immediatly pull away? Could still be feeding off your emotions if you are still scared.

My Wyatt will turn on his back and wrinkle his nose at me when I need to put him outside. He is just showing me he doesn't want to do what I ask. I just grab his collar and he jumps up. We call this the devil dog look!


----------



## FeatherRiverSam (Aug 7, 2009)

quilter said:


> My pup takes the first ball with him to get the second ball! Then he tries to push the second ball back to us with his nose. The whole thing falls apart when we throw the third ball. But it's fun to watch him think about it. Which one do I drop? Which one do I want? Can I pick up two and push one?


That's too funny but you'd better watch out.....they have a way of figuring things out..........

Pete


----------



## Kinjal (Dec 26, 2011)

As I had said, I never pull back when I tickle him and he snarls. I stroke his ears and he continues chewing on toy. Again it's just the face he makes, there's never a noise. I'm not scared at all when he does it, when I see it I usually "ah-huh, no gabbar" and continue. 

Gabbar has been to puppy obedience and aced it. We are doing the next level up course starting mid April. You're right, won't use the Millan claw. Man, I really wished I knew why he's so edgy with these tiny things, I don't take anything off him anymore without a trade and if it's a safe object I sometimes inspect it and give it back. I wonder if all this is also lack of his maturity still? Like I'm not even touching the toy when I tickled his muzzle when he snarls ... It's weird... I just want him to grow up as balanced and confident we are his trusted people... I'm still working through the "mine" activities... We don't have issues with lower value treats. But anything that is they raw or chewy variety gets him slightly on edge... He doesn't bite... Just gets growly and only once did the air snap... But we are working on the activities slowly not to get him to practice a growl.... Then I notice his snarl last couple of days...


----------



## abowman (Jan 5, 2012)

Finn wrinkles and pulls his lip up, we ave always thought this is his smile. It is with play and lovings that he shows us his smile.


----------



## Mollymoo (Mar 7, 2012)

We have a cavalier king Charles spaniel as well as Molly and they both do the wrinkly nose thing when they are playing both there tails are wagging and they are happy so I think it's them just having fun there is no growling or bad body language just two pals having fun I have never thought otherwise it just looks like they are being friendly.


----------



## Kinjal (Dec 26, 2011)

I really need to maybe take a video of it and post it... I am unsure if he's playing or being a moody bum....


----------



## Tucker's mommy (Nov 9, 2011)

The signals can be very confusing sometimes for us, too. We've never had guarding issues of any kind with Tucker, but he does throw "temper tantrums" when he wants something, like his supper, or to stay out on the deck when we want him to come in. He'll get down with his but in the air, in that play bow pose, then give us that snarly smile and start to bark bark bark! Sometimes he'll throw a jumpy nip at our arms into the mix, too. Clearly, he's telling us - "I want to do this MY way". BUT- he needs to learn it's not acceptable to treat us that way, so, we lead him to his crate for a short timeout every time it happens. Do anyone else's goldens throw these moody little fits? Ours is not a year yet - he's 10 and a half months - clearly in the teenage rebellion stage. I hope he grows out of it!


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Tucker's mommy said:


> The signals can be very confusing sometimes for us, too. We've never had guarding issues of any kind with Tucker, but he does throw "temper tantrums" when he wants something, like his supper, or to stay out on the deck when we want him to come in. He'll get down with his but in the air, in that play bow pose, then give us that snarly smile and start to bark bark bark! Sometimes he'll throw a jumpy nip at our arms into the mix, too. Clearly, he's telling us - "I want to do this MY way". BUT- he needs to learn it's not acceptable to treat us that way, so, we lead him to his crate for a short timeout every time it happens. Do anyone else's goldens throw these moody little fits? Ours is not a year yet - he's 10 and a half months - clearly in the teenage rebellion stage. I hope he grows out of it!


The more I think about it... 

If your dog is play bowing and barking, he is play posturing or evading/sassing. The curling of the lip in that case could be the "golden smile" as suggested earlier in this thread or at the worst the playbowing and barking is a form of sassing when you are bringing him in and he's evading you. 

And even there, the most I would punish your dog is going out and catching him, telling him he's silly, and walking into the house with him. Punish = settle your dog down. I guess it depends on how out of control mouthy he is being. 

*** It's way too early in the morning - still. I need to think through responses before making them sometimes. >.<


----------



## Tanyac (Jun 18, 2008)

Tucker's mommy said:


> The signals can be very confusing sometimes for us, too. We've never had guarding issues of any kind with Tucker, but he does throw "temper tantrums" when he wants something, like his supper, or to stay out on the deck when we want him to come in. He'll get down with his but in the air, in that play bow pose, then give us that snarly smile and start to bark bark bark! Sometimes he'll throw a jumpy nip at our arms into the mix, too. Clearly, he's telling us - "I want to do this MY way". BUT- he needs to learn it's not acceptable to treat us that way, so, we lead him to his crate for a short timeout every time it happens. Do anyone else's goldens throw these moody little fits? Ours is not a year yet - he's 10 and a half months - clearly in the teenage rebellion stage. I hope he grows out of it!


Our Flo would bark and jump about in total excitement when she was waiting for her food to be prepared. The other two would be standing waiting patiently and this little fur kid would be going wild "shouting" at us to hurry up with the food! A few times of walking away from the bowls as soon as she started, and only getting the food when she was quiet worked for us. She's never done it since & she's 19 months old now.

As far as testing boundaries when refusing to come inside, I would step outside, point to the door and say "IN!". If it doesn't work then "see ya", I go right on inside and shut the door. A few minutes later, dog whining because he/she has been shut outside gets the message through.

Always remember to praise when the dog has done something good.


----------



## Tanyac (Jun 18, 2008)

Lol I love the pic of the Golden with 3 balls! Our Flo will gather both balls, stealing her mum's if she can and streak about with them on the field. One day however she found a third ball on the grass and I couldn't believe it but she had all three in there!

She actually retrieved the ball right back to me and dropped at my feet for the first time today. She did this again and again, I was happy!

So patience is definitely the key, they all get there eventually...




FeatherRiverSam said:


> That's too funny but you'd better watch out.....they have a way of figuring things out..........
> 
> Pete


----------



## bioteach (Nov 13, 2010)

I guess that I've been so lucky! I've raised four GRs from puppyhood and none of them have ever had guarding issues of any kind. Is this nature or nurture?


----------



## Tucker's mommy (Nov 9, 2011)

I wonder why some dogs have the inclination and others don't, as well. We've been so lucky too, so far. We practice the "drop-it"/"leave-it" ALL the time on walks, at home, with our fetch games, etc - so he's at the point now where when he does get one, he drops rocks on command, along with a bunch of other very annoying things on walks. BUT - I'm sure the day we come across a dead squirrel in our path, it may not be so easy! :yuck: 

It must be a personality thing? Or is it a confidance issue? Do more submissive dogs have more of a tendency to resource guard, or the other way around? I'd love to hear more on this one. I just pray that at 11 months of age, if we haven't seen it yet, we won't. That was one of my major concerns bringing a pup into the house with all of our little kids here. But so far so good. I also wonder - if people tend to obsess over the issue, "creating" situations for their dogs to have to be put in those situations, are you actually creating a bigger problem? Sorry for the ramble - this isn't even my thread! I just wonder about this stuff alot.


----------



## Kinjal (Dec 26, 2011)

I've been told Gabbar's guarding is his lack of confidence. That started as he was part of a very large litter. I think it was ten pups. But then I think being first time owners and chasing him when he had things in his mouth was like an added thing we did. It's been a month and we work on leave it and drop it pretty ok, it's if he has an object that sometimes he chooses to hide with it. I've learnt to relax, if it's harmless I let him have it now. Mind you it's only been 3 months since he's been with us and we are learning as well.


----------



## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Kinjal said:


> I've been told Gabbar's guarding is his lack of confidence. That started as he was part of a very large litter. I think it was ten pups.


Well, every one of my Danes were from a litter of 13 puppies or larger and I never had any guarding issues with any of them. So...not too sure how much coming from a large litter has anything to do with it.


----------



## Kinjal (Dec 26, 2011)

I'm just saying what was a maybe reason ... They do say some of it can be genetic ? I'm not sure whether that is true.


----------



## luverofpeanuts (Jun 9, 2011)

Kinjal said:


> Has anyone ever seen this? Gabbar is 5 months and 2 weeks. Also do they ever out grow chewing sticks and rocks and other such material? I've notice he'll pick up a rock, lie down and be chewing and mouthing it, then spitting the rock out... It's weird, as I keep correcting him ...


Aspen had a few wrinkle nose type reactions that I did not expect ... anywhere from 10 weeks to 8 months.

When I noticed it was when Aspen was really tried and was resting/napping. I would lay or sit down near her and just pet her gently. She would slowly raise her head and sometimes give the little lip curl... but never a sound. It was very strange... almost creepy. 

I thought she had grown out it. Then only a couple of months ago, she was resting and laid down to pet her and just kind of put my head down near floor next to her while my hands reached up and pet her ears and neck. I looked up...and there was the snarl and teeth showing!... very very slight... and no sound at all. I didn't react, I just slowly got up. 

In every situation that Aspen has done this, she has either been *really* tired... or possibly had some stomach upset... sometimes it just looks that way. 

Anyway... I don't want to make it sound like this is frequent...it's not. She's usually responds very lovingly and gently to any pets. 

In Aspen's case, i just think it was her way of saying... " <sigh> not now...i'm just really wanting to rest here.... "


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I think it's nature _and_ nurture... 

Our first two goldens resource guarded. Charmy was softer than Sammy, but he did have a dominant streak. Sammy wasn't necessarily dominant? But he was muleheaded and pretty independant? I've said before that when we went out to pick a puppy from the litter, he was the one marching off on his own away from his littermates and the people ooohing over them. 

And because the first two resource guarded we really worked with Danny and then Jacks to make sure they both knew that bringing things to us either meant that they would receive a trade-reward or I would look at what they had and give it right back. 

I really doubt that Danny would have ever growled or clamped down on anything. He was one of those dogs who only growled and raised his lips when he was too happy to control his face while he ran around greeting everyone.  

Jacks - I love him to pieces and love how sound he is... but he does sometimes have a little sneaky-dominant streak pop up. One example I can think of is when our collie nosed the latch to the dog food bucket and popped the lid up, Jacks walked up and put his chin on the collie's nose and held it there right by the food bucket. He didn't growl or snap or do anything beyond standing there. And finally our collie (who is the dominant soul in the house) backed off and walked away from the food bucket. And Jacks relaxed and went back to what he was doing. 

^ Jacks isn't allowed to dig into the food bucket, and I think that when he's tried the lid had dropped down and hit him on the head. But he wasn't going to let Arthur get in there either. :eyeroll:

That is the type of behavior I would immediately correct if Jacks ever tried it with us. And he never has... no posturing, no growling, no raising lips, no snapping... but that very well have been training or handling right from the beginning paying off?

When Jacks was still a puppy, he found a disembowled rabbit in our yard. He was running around with intestines in his mouth. The fact that he let me reach into his mouth and remove EVERYTHING and wash his mouth out with soap (oh yes, I did) was a huge deal. But we'd been doing a lot of handling and training and trading and mouthwork before that time.


----------



## aerolor (May 27, 2011)

From what I understand and have experienced, most, if not all, dogs and puppies will resource guard at some level (it's natural) but the submissive dog will easily give up a valued item - simply because it is a submissive natured dog. I think it is the more assertive pup/dog that will be more determined to keep something. Lip curling and wrinkling the nose can be either a submissive gesture or an attempt to be assertive and there are subtle differences in body language which are reasonably easy to read and understand if you know your dog. Personally, I don't subscribe to the theory of "alpha" in the relationship between dogs and humans and the idea that an owner has to be the "alpha" of a pack. I think it is high time the term "alpha" was done away with.


----------



## darbysdad (Dec 23, 2011)

bioteach said:


> I guess that I've been so lucky! I've raised four GRs from puppyhood and none of them have ever had guarding issues of any kind. Is this nature or nurture?


Nurture. Good Job


----------



## aerolor (May 27, 2011)

I have had dogs for the last 40+ years and I think I also have been lucky with the dogs that have come into my life. I have been rough-housed and mouthed by all of them over the years, as well as being bruised and battered in play, but I have never had a dog actually bite me or hurt me intentionally. I don't feel I have to prove that I have to dominate or be the alpha. To me the important factor is common sense and maintaining a trust on both sides of the relationship. I just like dogs for what they are. I hope that doesn't sound sentimental - those that know me know I am not the sentimental sort.


----------



## Dakotadog (Jan 2, 2012)

Sounds like a snarl but if he isn't biting or growling i think you will be okay. It sounds like he is just do the instinctive thing;


----------



## twopups (Aug 11, 2019)

All of my dogs get used to me being in and around their mouths. If they don't like it, tough. I don't want them snarling or potentially biting a child that might come too near, which will likely happen if they develop the habit. A child doesn't know how to swap toys for treats. I take things from my dogs all the time and then give them back. I play with their food while they're eating it. If they snarl at all, I don't back off. Instead, I keep my hand there and don't react (easier said than done if they bite), then I take the toy. This tells them snarling (and even biting) will not be rewarded. If I were to recoil my hand, it would reinforce the behavior. I am not domineering at all - I just play with their things constantly so they know that they are my things first. If they do bite, I hold their bottom jaw for a few seconds (very lightly, not forcefully at all) until they have a "what the heck?!" moment and pull away. Has worked well so far. I never want to "avoid" a dog if they snarl because this also reinforces the behavior. I just don't tolerate it because I don't want them snapping at kids or other people. Treats are great for reinforcing good behavior. Also, this technique doesn't only apply to puppies. My last rescue was 3-5 years old when he grabbed a bone off the grass. I didn't have anything to trade for it (because we were out walking and I mistakenly forgot treats), so I pryed his jaw open (gently, not forcefully) and took it. He growled, but I didn't react. I just calmly took the bone out of his mouth and that was it. He learned that growling or snarling would not work and stopped altogether.


----------

