# Has anyone heard of this breeder: Utah English Goldens??



## delafrontera (Mar 17, 2009)

Hello all, 

I will be getting a GR soon and I happen to live in Utah. Has anyone heard of the breeder Utah English Goldens? They apparently have some imported white Goldens from Europe they use to breed. 

http://www.utahenglishgoldens.com/

I had not heard of them and was wondering if anyone on the forum had??

Any guidance that could be given on this would be very much appreciated. From the looks of things, I think they just breed and breed these dogs and sell them for about $2,000 a pop.

Thanks,


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

Looking at their site, I would probably not purchase a puppy from them.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

I wouldn't consider a dog from this breeder for several reasons - clearances, pedigrees, and price just a few.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

I agree with Marlene-I personally would not purchase a dog from them. It appears that the only clearances they have done are hips and eyes (and cannot tell if they have been done annually). If you decide to pursue a puppy from them, I would request OFA hip and elbow clearances, a recent eye exam and a heart clearance done by a cardiologist, all on both parents.

They do not appear to "do" anything with their dogs beyond breeding them, and primarily seem to use their own studs.

And this is as true for European imports as it is for American-bred Goldens-not every puppy out of champion parents is worthy of being bred; not every champion is worthy of being bred; and it takes only 1 generation of careless (ie, not aware of what to look for in a pedigree or a dog) breeding to take the best pedigree to the level of a BYB.

And imports are not free of the same issues we have here either, and some come with their own. There is a Polish or Romanian champion being used in my area who has produced several offspring with very severe epilepsy. It shows up as a puppy and the dog I had personal experience with, had to be put down at 15 months due to the severity of the seizure. Although notified, the "breeders" have done nothing.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Tahnee GR said:


> I agree with Marlene-I personally would not purchase a dog from them. It appears that the only clearances they have done are hips and eyes (and cannot tell if they have been done annually). If you decide to pursue a puppy from them, I would request OFA hip and elbow clearances, a recent eye exam and a heart clearance done by a cardiologist, all on both parents.
> 
> They do not appear to "do" anything with their dogs beyond breeding them, and primarily seem to use their own studs.
> 
> ...


 

I find it interesting that Polish, Russian, Hungarian, and Czech dogs are so commonly imported and used by the "breeders" cashing in on the "European" white/creme/etc dogs. You rarely see these bloodlines brought in by the reputable US breeders who have incorporated European dogs into their bloodlines.


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## honeysmum (Dec 4, 2007)

Hmmmm very emotive topic English Goldens White Goldens, I don't usually post on this subject but cant sleep, why would anyone want a White Golden people may have a preference for shade but the whole English /Cream has been done to death more importantly they should be posting the clearances of the parents Hip/Elbow/Eye when you find a breeder that posts that and has the shade of Golden you are looking for you are begining to get on the right track.
Sorry just my TPW from someone in the UK


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

I too would ask a lot of questions before considering a pup from them. They list Honey as OFA "GOOD" but OFA has her as a "FAIR". Honey does have an elbow clearance and her eyes are as of this time clear and up to date. Gentry has no OFA elbow clearance, hips are listed as "GOOD" also on OFA and his eyes are allso up to date and clear.
Do not see any mention of heart clearances also so you would need to check for those.
Their "$2000 a pop" is more like a "bang" to me.
And lastly my BIGGEST concern is they are trying to take advantage of the "English" golden advertising baloney. And to top it off they state on their wesite they have acquired dogs from "Poland, Czech Republic and Romania". Now last I checked none of these are part of the United Kingdom unless I missed the News tonight and England was busy invading and conquering in Central Europe. :doh:


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## diana_D (Jan 27, 2008)

Nor would I, even if the lines in the pedigrees they listed (some are missing) are great.

And as some others posted in the meantime I have to defend Eastern European dogs, sorry to break it to you, but there are some amazing dogs, English lines here. Disregarding top breeders from Romania for instance is not a wise thing to do. I can show you dogs that can beat any AmCh. 

Check this kennel out :
http://www.soulcharisma.com/Masculi.htm

Also you can check Mediguard Kennel and Clear Passion. You would be totally (and very pleasantly) surprised. 

The dogs posted on the website are indeed of English lineage. IF you don't know kennels in Europe, please don't trash them all. Those are top kennels, producing amazing dogs. But the dogs listed there have little to do with great conformation.


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## honeysmum (Dec 4, 2007)

Oh my I type to slow,but it is late here.


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## Gwen (Aug 9, 2007)

I wonder why the cost of one litter is $800 yet the other is $2000??????? and they accept VISA, Paypal, etc....... Sounds like very HV breeders or a mill....

I'd run as fast as I could from this breeder....kinda smells like the Mennonite puppy mills.......


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

honeysmum said:


> Hmmmm very emotive topic English Goldens White Goldens, I don't usually post on this subject but cant sleep, why would anyone want a White Golden people may have a preference for shade but the whole English /Cream has been done to death more importantly they should be posting the clearances of the parents Hip/Elbow/Eye when you find a breeder that posts that and has the shade of Golden you are looking for you are begining to get on the right track.
> Sorry just my TPW from someone in the UK


WAIT! Do you have...an ENGLISH Golden?


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

diana_D said:


> Nor would I, even if the lines in the pedigrees they listed (some are missing) are great.
> 
> And as some others posted in the meantime I have to defend Eastern European dogs, sorry to break it to you, but there are some amazing dogs, English lines here. Disregarding top breeders from Romania for instance is not a wise thing to do. I can show you dogs that can beat any AmCh.
> 
> ...


I'm not, nor have I _*ever*, _"trashed" European dogs. I am questioning why it is that these Eastern European dogs are being imported by so many marginal kennels. Are the Romanians, Czechs, Polish, etc selling their best dogs to them? I doubt it _very _much. Just like I referred to the Japanese wanting US Champions - a status symbol for them in the 80's - and paying obscenely inflated prices for dogs that some US breeders saw as a great way to unload dogs that didn't clear. Get a quick ch on them and move 'em out for tens of thousands. YEP. I turned down $30k for Lyric. Then, the broker attempted to buy Lyric puppies - not old enough to clear - for $15 -20k. They were finally educated as to the genetic health issues in these dogs by US breeders who CARED about the breed, but not until they had already bred a LOT of them, perpetuating the issues. They now know that they were essentially "ripped off", and have worked hard to improve the dogs.
I simply commented that you rarely, if ever, see the Eastern European dogs brought in by anyone other than those selling "rare white yada yada yada" dogs for ridiculously high prices. It wasn't a comment on the dogs themselves.


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## diana_D (Jan 27, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> I'm not, nor have I _*ever*, _"trashed" European dogs. I am questioning why it is that these Eastern European dogs are being imported by so many marginal kennels. Are the Romanians, Czechs, Polish, etc selling their best dogs to them? I doubt it _very _much.


I agree, they would *never* sell conformation dogs to them.


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

I would contact the www.GRCA.org for puppy referrals and also check out the puppy buyer checklist at the top of the forum here. It has some great information there. Good luck with your search.


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## slkuta (Feb 14, 2009)

Also watch out for Starr Goldens in Ohio. We put a deposit in with them, six months later had an appointment to pick up the puppy and then they cancelled on us. They did send the refund, but we were very disappointed.


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## Bogart'sMom (Sep 16, 2005)

The thing is American's like the light color Golden Retrievers as you see them alot in I say Germany since that is my country of origin and I see the white Goldens over there all the time. Now the Germans lately like the darker Goldens like the Americans have. The Field trial Goldens so to speak. It's quiet amusing LOL. I would also run from these people. The breeding of Goldens is a total buseness for them. Almost like a Puppymill.
I wouldn't be suprised if they sell their puppies on Internet Websites.
All the best,


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## AcesWild (Nov 29, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> I find it interesting that Polish, Russian, Hungarian, and Czech dogs are so commonly imported and used by the "breeders" cashing in on the "European" white/creme/etc dogs. You rarely see these bloodlines brought in by the reputable US breeders who have incorporated European dogs into their bloodlines.



I agree! However I did manage to find one, and one that doesn't charge up the wazoo for the "rare color". 

Oh boy but these people they have a paypal link right there on the website! Gah! Run awwwaaaaay!


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## delafrontera (Mar 17, 2009)

Wow, it's good to know that this is such an important topic to so many of you. I also was weary of the marketing and high volume that this breeder seemed to be putting out. That coupled with the fact that they are located in the middle of nowheresville in Utah just reinforced the idea that they were just into breeding like this for the money, and at $2,000 per puppy, that ends up being like quite a bit of cash for anyone that would otherwise not be motivated by a quick buck. 

In any case, I do not know this breeder so I cannot really speak ill of their intentions but all of your comments have provided me with a great deal of insight. I've learned a lot of things from this forum that will be invaluable to me in looking for a puppy and for that I thank all of you members of the forum. 

Thank you,


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## milo555 (Sep 15, 2011)

It is amazing to see internet "experts" post firm recommendations to avoid a breeder on the sole basis of reviewing a website! Some of the finest breeders I have encountered, whom have health and protection of the breed very securely tied to their heart and actions, are not internet savvy and do not have the nicest web presence. The fact that you can post on a blog and tell someone to run away from a breeder and thereby affect their livelihood, without ever once picking-up the phone and calling them and actually investigating your claims, is not what true experts do and is entirely irresponsible! So, let it be known that I have done research and cross referenced with outside, respected breeder and I received firm recommendations that Utah English Goldens is a fine breeder. I learned that Utah gets high marks for puppy socialization and is deeply concerned for the health and well being of the breed. As I picked-up the phone, researched, emailed references, etc. perhaps future blog researchers will be benefited from "the rest of the story." Further, based on what I have learned by actually checking out Utah Goldens, I am purchasing a pup from them and I will be sure to come back here and report the total experience with facts, versus an assessment of their website as the basis to post unfounded opinions based on fluff.


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## nixietink (Apr 3, 2008)

milo555 said:


> It is amazing to see internet "experts" post firm recommendations to avoid a breeder on the sole basis of reviewing a website! Some of the finest breeders I have encountered, whom have health and protection of the breed very securely tied to their heart and actions, are not internet savvy and do not have the nicest web presence. *The fact that you can post on a blog and tell someone to run away from a breeder and thereby affect their livelihood, without ever once picking-up the phone and calling them and actually investigating your claims, is not what true experts do and is entirely irresponsible!* So, let it be known that I have done research and cross referenced with outside, respected breeder and I received firm recommendations that Utah English Goldens is a fine breeder. I learned that Utah gets high marks for puppy socialization and is deeply concerned for the health and well being of the breed. As I picked-up the phone, researched, emailed references, etc. perhaps future blog researchers will be benefited from "the rest of the story." Further, based on what I have learned by actually checking out Utah Goldens, I am purchasing a pup from them and I will be sure to come back here and report the total experience with facts, versus an assessment of their website as the basis to post unfounded opinions based on fluff.


Umm...clearances can be investigated and verified on the internet. No need to pick up the phone to "verify" anything.


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## milo555 (Sep 15, 2011)

So, you have checked clearances here and verified yourself there is a problem? Have you checked out this breeder other than sitting at your computer reacting and writing? Have you looked at one piece of data? Spoken to one reference? Would you like to be judged as such...check out your website and if it doesn't have everything listed that I think you should have then I should bad mouth you? Ah the internet...anyone can claim expertise and can say whatever they want. So easy to be an "expert" that way.


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## milo555 (Sep 15, 2011)

nixietink said:


> Umm...clearances can be investigated and verified on the internet. No need to pick up the phone to "verify" anything.


So, you have checked clearances here and verified yourself there is a problem? Have you checked out this breeder other than sitting at your computer reacting and writing? Have you looked at one piece of data? Spoken to one reference? Would you like to be judged as such...check out your website and if it doesn't have everything listed that I think you should have then I should bad mouth you? Ah the internet...anyone can claim expertise and can say whatever they want. So easy to be an "expert" that way.


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## nixietink (Apr 3, 2008)

milo555 said:


> So, you have checked clearances here and verified yourself there is a problem? Have you checked out this breeder other than sitting at your computer reacting and writing? Have you looked at one piece of data? Spoken to one reference? Would you like to be judged as such...check out your website and if it doesn't have everything listed that I think you should have then I should bad mouth you? Ah the internet...anyone can claim expertise and can say whatever they want. So easy to be an "expert" that way.


Why yes, yes I have. 

Let's start with the 2 breedings advertised on their website. Charlotte x Cowboy and Princess x Cowboy.

Charlotte has a clearance for hips and a cardiac clearance. There is nothing for elbows and the CERF was last tested in 2008. I'll just give the breeder the benefit of the doubt that they didn't send the results in but had them done within the past year. 

Princess has all 4 clearances done, but has an outdated CERF as well from 2008. 

HERE is the kicker...

Cowboy ISN'T EVEN TWO! So he cannot even HAVE clearances done. A breeder who has other clearances on their dogs, MUST know this. They state he has prelims, but they aren't posted in the OFA database. But prelims are just that, prelims. They are NOT clearances. I also see no CERF or a cardiac clearance which CAN be done before two years of age.


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## milo555 (Sep 15, 2011)

nixietink said:


> Why yes, yes I have.
> 
> Let's start with the 2 breedings advertised on their website. Charlotte x Cowboy and Princess x Cowboy.
> 
> ...


Ah, my point perfectly proven. Instant blog reaction based on you reading what a website has posted on it. NOTHING MORE. No follow-up, no actually looking at the latest information that just simply is not posted...no nothing...instant internet blog reaction. NO FACTS! meaningless website review. Shame on you.


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## nixietink (Apr 3, 2008)

milo555 said:


> Ah, my point perfectly proven. Instant blog reaction based on you reading what a website has posted on it. NOTHING MORE. No follow-up, no actually looking at the latest information that just simply is not posted...no nothing...instant internet blog reaction. NO FACTS! meaningless website review. Shame on you.


How is this NOT facts? I looked at the OFA website. It's all there, lol.


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## milo555 (Sep 15, 2011)

nixietink said:


> How is this NOT facts? I looked at the OFA website. It's all there, lol.


Oh look...another reactionary post from someone that has done nothing but sat at a computer.


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## MGMF (May 13, 2009)

milo555 said:


> Ah, my point perfectly proven. Instant blog reaction based on you reading what a website has posted on it. NOTHING MORE. No follow-up, no actually looking at the latest information that just simply is not posted...no nothing...instant internet blog reaction. NO FACTS! meaningless website review. Shame on you.


 
If you are going to have a website it a responsiblity to keep it up to date. It is one thing to not get to it everyday or even once a month but years, no excuse. Why have a website if you have something to hide.


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## nixietink (Apr 3, 2008)

milo555 said:


> Oh look...another reactionary post from someone that has done nothing but sat at a computer.


That's the glory of the internet. The internet is enough to know whether a breeder is reputable or not. All I need are registered AKC names.

Have a nice day!! :wavey:


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

The problem with "references" is that a reference means little unless the individuals are experts on the subject and third part (such as OFA records). The "I got a dog from them and he is 3 and he is nice and healthy" means nothing. 

I don't think anyone here is looking for pretty websites (or websites at all) but certainly of a website says something questionable than absolutely this is saying something about the breeder and the breeder should be avoided.


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## milo555 (Sep 15, 2011)

nixietink said:


> That's the glory of the internet. The internet is enough to know whether a breeder is reputable or not. All I need are registered AKC names.
> 
> Have a nice day!! :wavey:


Really...the internet is how we know and judge? Wow! We declare a breeder better than another with the internet? :bowl: ROFL!! Plenty of puppy mills have amazing internet sites with all kind of certs. Here is to the folks that actually do more, meet someone, cross check and have a conscience to be more than a blogger before they make assessments! Cheers.


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

milo555 said:


> Really...the internet is how we know and judge? Wow! We declare a breeder better than another with the internet? :bowl: ROFL!! Plenty of puppy mills have amazing internet sites with all kind of certs. Here is to the folks that actually do more, meet someone, cross check and have a conscience to be more than a blogger before they make assessments! Cheers.


I think you might not be aware that there are third party health records that are viewable online? We are not relying on the breeder website to make assertions, we are looking at a health registry independent of the breeder's website.


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## MGMF (May 13, 2009)

nixietink said:


> Why yes, yes I have.
> 
> Let's start with the 2 breedings advertised on their website. Charlotte x Cowboy and Princess x Cowboy.
> 
> ...


Practicioner heart checks, under two years old.....OFA is the fact!


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## Visitador (Aug 12, 2011)

milo555 said:


> Ah, my point perfectly proven. Instant blog reaction based on you reading what a website has posted on it. NOTHING MORE. No follow-up, no actually looking at the latest information that just simply is not posted...no nothing...instant internet blog reaction. NO FACTS! meaningless website review. Shame on you.


Excuse me? OFA (Orthopedic Foundation for Animals) is the official entity that certifies vet results sent by breeders, right? It is not a pretty, fancy website. If you don't at least rely on them for a preliminary inquiry, whom do you rely on?


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## milo555 (Sep 15, 2011)

Plenty of puppy mills have amazing internet sites with all kind of CLEAN certs.


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

milo555 said:


> Plenty of puppy mills have amazing internet sites with all kind of CLEAN certs.


Again, we are NOT checking certification on the breeder websites.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

milo555 said:


> Really...the internet is how we know and judge? Wow! We declare a breeder better than another with the internet? :bowl: ROFL!! Plenty of puppy mills have amazing internet sites with all kind of certs. Here is to the folks that actually do more, meet someone, cross check and have a conscience to be more than a blogger before they make assessments! Cheers.


Do you know what OFA is?


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## Rob's GRs (Feb 25, 2007)

Another hot topic has been alerted to us. We would like to put in this friendly reminder, especially our newest members that may have not read our board rules yet, that one of the things we ask that you do is; You may respectfully attack a member’s point of view but do not attack the member personally, or be excessively rude in your responses.


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## milo555 (Sep 15, 2011)

jackie_hubert said:


> Again, we are NOT checking certification on the breeder websites.


Plenty of puppy mills have sires & dams that are OFA clean. A breeder that has perfect OFA on all breeding stock, but is a mill that does not properly socialize, is not a better breeder because OFA data is clean.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

No, but OFA clearances are an important building block of what makes a good breeder. I would say that most of the true puppy mills don't have OFA clearances and make no bones about it. There are a lot of for profit breeders who make false claims on OFA and other clearances (we've seen a lot of them on this Forum), or who routinely breed on prelims-including one who used to be on this Forum, who bred her underage boy several times on his Prelims of Good, only to have him fail his final clearances. 

A breeder who claims to socialize their puppies properly but skimps on clearances is somehow acceptable? I don't think so. A good breeder does it ALL-full clearances, proper socialization, great puppy care, research on stud dogs and their own dogs, understanding their dogs pedigrees fully before breeding.

I must say that i was very surprised to see a Wisconsin breeder who advertises that their puppy price includes their "special" socialization package. After reading her website, i was surprised to find that I, too, have a special socialization package included with my puppies, involving 7/7's, super puppy exercises, and so on, and I didn't even know it! I was even more surprised (not) that I couldn't find any of her dogs on OFA, nor were they advertised with any clearances at all.

If you stick around and read some of the threads where people ask questions about particular kennels and breedings, you might learn something and understand what we are talking about.


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

milo555 said:


> Plenty of puppy mills have sires & dams that are OFA clean. A breeder that has perfect OFA on all breeding stock, but is a mill that does not properly socialize, is not a better breeder because OFA data is clean.


I think we would all agree with you on that. 

I have never seen a puppy mill with all clear OFAs. Can you please give me some names? I'd love to have a look. These would be ones that we would like to make members aware of.


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

I agree with your point that clearances _alone_ do not make the dog... having the breedstock evaluated against the breed standard to prevent kennel blindness...competing in some sort of publicly verifiable venue to prove trainablilty and or working ability and temperament all contribute to the integrity of a breeder (in my opinion)
However no one has said that the breeder is a mill... (most mills dont bother with clearances).

However many would not purchase a puppy without all four clearance in place, current and verifiable....myself included.

Many would use the Golden Retriever Club of America's breeders Code of Ethics as a 'starting point' to determine if a breeder doing a reputable job with their breeding program.


But that is just me...



milo555 said:


> Plenty of puppy mills have sires & dams that are OFA clean. A breeder that has perfect OFA on all breeding stock, but is a mill that does not properly socialize, is not a better breeder because OFA data is clean.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

milo555 said:


> Plenty of puppy mills have sires & dams that are OFA clean. A breeder that has perfect OFA on all breeding stock, but is a mill that does not properly socialize, is not a better breeder because OFA data is clean.


When you look into breeders, you want to make sure they are doing everything possible to ensure you have a sound and healthy puppy. That's why we want all breeders to be getting those clearances before producing puppies. The last thing I want from a breeder is for them to regard breeding as a main source of income. Most of the responsible breeders I know of are either retired or are working for a living in addition to their dog hobby.

If you are going with this breeder anyway, that's your choice. You shouldn't feel like you have to defend them especially if they are cutting corners on health.

^ And I don't mean this in a harsh way. I think we have all been there with a breeder who we like and connected with when we visited them and saw their dogs regardless of some issue with how they do things.


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## milo555 (Sep 15, 2011)

Nice to see some reason and responsible posts make their way in here. It is quite the no brainer that good breeders take great care of insuring good health, be it through a vast list of methods including OFA certs. Nowhere was it stated or implied that this is not important. The point is simple, some bloggers here have indeed made baseless false claims about a breeder smelling like a mill, without doing anything but reviewing a website. That is wrong, damaging and irresponsible. A clean looking website, with lots of certs and pedigrees and impressive clean health records speaks nothing to the breeder's environment, cleanliness, puppy care, onsite vet support, food quality, use of supplements, socialization, etc. etc. etc. No one can see the whole picture of a breeder from a website, nor just OFAs. I know incredibly responsible breeders that have horrible, incomplete websites and it would be tragic if they were judged by a blogger who deflected folks away from them based on one-dimensional web review. I am not defending; I am pointing out the original point...general comments on whether or not some helpful information may be suspect or missing on a website is fine. Using that observation to make baseless conclusions to bad mouth a breeder without digging deeper...not OK.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Me personally, when I have been looking for a breeder, I am lookiing for someone who not only does all 4 clearances as recommended by the GRCA, but also competes with their dogs in some venue. I am not just looking for health clearances but proof that the dog has some abilities other the ability to breed. I also look at websites and make my judgments based on what someone has put up for the World to see. This is their public face and when you make yourself public, you can expect scrutiny. When you accept paypal and visa for your pups and they are advertised on puppy.com, it "smells" strongly of a business venture and less of a hobby breeder that I would want to buy a puppy from.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

Yeah, honestly, I don't care how awesome the breeder is, if they have an option available to punch in your Visa number and wham bam thank you ma'am buy a puppy, then, uh, I'll pass.

To me that implies that said breeder doesn't give a whit as to who their puppy is going home to.


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## milo555 (Sep 15, 2011)

General comments on whether or not some helpful information may be suspect or missing on a website, or if something doesn't smell right, is fine. Using those observations to make baseless conclusions to bad mouth a breeder without digging deeper...not OK.


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## milo555 (Sep 15, 2011)

Did you know that in Wisconsin you can pay your hospital bills using paypal? You can have a baby and pay with paypal...wow...that must mean the delivery doctor "smells" like someone that may not be a good doctor. Amazing how perspectives change when facts trump opinion...


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

milo555 said:


> Did you know that in Wisconsin you can pay your hospital bills using paypal? You can have a baby and pay with paypal...wow...that must mean the delivery doctor "smells" like someone that may not be a good doctor. Amazing how perspectives change when facts trump opinion...


You are paying the bill, not buying a baby...


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Actually, a hospital is a business... I am not bad mouthing your breeder. I am simply stating things that can be found on a website that would make me look in another direction. It costs money for the business to accept VISA/MC, so logically to make it worth your while, you have to have a fairly high volume business. I have never paid for a dog on credit...


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Well, I will just say this one thing. I do not need to email, meet, or call a breeder when they are NOT doing all 4 clearances. I do not need to look any further into it. No point. JMHO


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## milo555 (Sep 15, 2011)

I own a low volume business, which has nothing to do with breeding. I accept VISA/MC and it does not cost a lot and, my volume doesn't determine whether I can take credit cards. So many conclusions...so little willingness to consider that there is always more to the story than a website and certs. Opinions are fine...sharing what smells bad fine...using those limited observations to make overall conclusions about a breeder - not OK. I suspect you would not like to be judged and written about based on one or two things I learn about your breeding, from an unknown source.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

By the way, Milo 555, I did not see you intoduce yourself in the new forum section. Do you have a golden or goldens? You can post pics anytime.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

milo555 said:


> I own a low volume business, which has nothing to do with breeding. I accept VISA/MC and it does not cost a lot and, my volume doesn't determine whether I can take credit cards. So many conclusions...so little willingness to consider that there is always more to the story than a website and certs. Opinions are fine...sharing what smells bad fine...using those *limited observations* to make overall conclusions about a breeder - not OK. I suspect you would not like to be judged and written about based on one or two things I learn about your breeding, from an unknown source.


First off, do you know something we do not know? If so, enlighten us....if what we see is untrue, than tell us the truth. About clearances, breeding under two, etc?

When it is not in OFA, I consider that pretty LAZY or lack of WILLINGNESS of the Breeder!


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## DaisyGolden (Jan 4, 2008)

milo555 said:


> General comments on whether or not some helpful information may be suspect or missing on a website, or if something doesn't smell right, is fine. Using those observations to make baseless conclusions to bad mouth a breeder without digging deeper...not OK.


I just now read through this thread. Most of the things that I would say on this subject have already been said but i do have one question. If you don't like people giving an opinion on a breeder when they are asked to do so and you think the people here are acting like internet experts even though you think they have no idea what they are talking about then why are you on this forum?


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

Again no one has said any particular breeder is a mill. However when you can easily verify if the clearance are not done or not current on not just one, but all of their dogs...then IMHO - that _should_ set off red flags. 
As to websites...The only thing I nee from a breeders website is the registered name of the dog and preferably an AKC number. 

The rest of the information that I need to again, 'start' to decide if the breeder is right for me, is available publicly (at least in part).... I can verify with AKC if the dog has earned any titles...I can verify with ofa if all four clearance are done and current. And if one is missing here and there...that is okay I will ask and verify...but if they are spotty at best with _all _of their dogs it is a real turn off.

I don't even take pictures all that seriously because there is plenty of photo theft on the web. Although when I see pictures of ungroomed dogs or people stacking their dogs and only showing off the worst features of their dogs, they do lose credibility with me. 

There are very reputable breeders that dont have websites. There are some great breeders that do and do an amazing job keeping them current...but there are seemingly far more very'iffy' breeders that take advantage of people that like to shop for a puppy online from the comfort of their home the way some of us do for books or shoes. Fill out your name...provide your visa and !voila! puppy. 



milo555 said:


> Nice to see some reason and responsible posts make their way in here. It is quite the no brainer that good breeders take great care of insuring good health, be it through a vast list of methods including OFA certs. Nowhere was it stated or implied that this is not important. The point is simple, some bloggers here have indeed made baseless false claims about a breeder smelling like a mill, without doing anything but reviewing a website. That is wrong, damaging and irresponsible. A clean looking website, with lots of certs and pedigrees and impressive clean health records speaks nothing to the breeder's environment, cleanliness, puppy care, onsite vet support, food quality, use of supplements, socialization, etc. etc. etc. No one can see the whole picture of a breeder from a website, nor just OFAs. I know incredibly responsible breeders that have horrible, incomplete websites and it would be tragic if they were judged by a blogger who deflected folks away from them based on one-dimensional web review. I am not defending; I am pointing out the original point...general comments on whether or not some helpful information may be suspect or missing on a website is fine. Using that observation to make baseless conclusions to bad mouth a breeder without digging deeper...not OK.


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## milo555 (Sep 15, 2011)

Please show me where I have stated that I "think they have no idea what they are talking about."


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

milo555 said:


> Please show me where I have stated that I "think they have no idea what they are talking about."


 I am just really confused of what your point is here and particularly this whole thread?

We are not judging someone on their website!! It is about having important and up to date certifications. I do not see any obedience/field/CCA/agility/therapy titles. End of Story


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## DaisyGolden (Jan 4, 2008)

milo555 said:


> So, you have checked clearances here and verified yourself there is a problem? Have you checked out this breeder other than sitting at your computer reacting and writing? Have you looked at one piece of data? Spoken to one reference? Would you like to be judged as such...check out your website and if it doesn't have everything listed that I think you should have then I should bad mouth you? Ah the internet...anyone can claim expertise and can say whatever they want. So easy to be an "expert" that way.


Here you go. The internet expert thing you keep trying to use as some sort of a putdown makes it seem to me that you think these people have no idea what they are talking about.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I'm going to just throw this out there: coming on a message board as a new member to post replies in a 2 1/2 year old thread and having a majority of those posts take a condescending and rude tone towards other members of the board - not OK.


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## DaisyGolden (Jan 4, 2008)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> I'm going to just throw this out there: coming on a message board as a new member to post replies in a 2 1/2 year old thread and having a majority of those posts take a condescending and rude tone towards other members of the board - not OK.


My point exactly.


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## Maddie'sMom2011 (Apr 26, 2011)

Well said!


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I actually agree that if someone is interested in a breeder they should call/email them and not just limit their research to message boards and various websites. I do think it's unfortunate and rather unfair if a breeder gets disparaged online because of lack of information on their own website. But - and this is a big but - if a breeder chooses to have a website and chooses not to provide information on their dogs so that the average puppy buyer can confirm that the breeder is obtaining the clearances recommended by the GRCA Code of Ethics and confirm that they are active in some venue with their dogs, that isn't this board's fault nor is it the fault of the potential puppy buyer who comes to this board seeking guidance.

I also don't think having a Paypal button = unreputable breeder, but it sure doesn't give me a warm fuzzy feeling inside. It's also a tool utilized by high volume breeders and puppy brokers, and personally, if I were a reputable breeder I wouldn't want to be in the company of those folks. So there's my 2 cents.


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## nixietink (Apr 3, 2008)

I haven't had a chance to read through the rest of the replies really, but wanted to clarify something. 

I wouldn't rush out and purchase a puppy just because a breeder does all 4 clearances. I would obviously talk with the breeder, check out how their lines fit with my lifestyle, if we are comfortable with one another, make sure they are breeding to standard, etc. 

However I would NOT purchase from a breeder who is not adhering to the 4 clearances and the GRCA code of ethics. This is what I meant by being able to check if a breeder is reputable by using the internet. Of course there is much more than clearances, but IMO, checking these is the baseline of finding out if a breeder is reputable.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

My comments are done. I am happy with the dogs I purchased. Just as happy with the dogs I have bred. I follow verifiable OFA clearances for all the dogs I have purchased as well as all of the dogs I have bred. And I look at pedigrees to see what these dogs can do.... I will never purchase a dog based on color, "style", etc. I want a dog that meets the GRCA standard both in pedigree, appearance, and OFA clearances.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

And ability to work....


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## jagmanbrg (Jan 4, 2011)

Blah 6 pages of yuck, wont respond to the troll, but to the OP, I would steer clear of this breeder...oh snap I said it..

Don't be afraid to use the search function on choosing a "English" breeder. There are a lot of threads devoted to this subject, feel free to ask about another breeder if you have any more questions.


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## milo555 (Sep 15, 2011)

Oh so many experts willing to harm another breeder based on nothing but what their keyboard let's them type. I expect that I am the only one that has contributed to these 7 pages that HAS ACTUALLY VISITED the breeder in question that started this thread, has looked at their documentation and confirmed proper certifications, has witnessed the environment, knows what vet care they are providing, knows what food they use, and has contacted references. I gain nothing personally by commenting here other than making sure future readers get truth versus conjecture. Do you your homework, way beyond blogs and websites, then make comments that help or harm another. Those that solely read a website and then make bold comments to use or avoid, based on no further research...irresponsible indeed. For those seeking pups, you owe it to look way beyond great bloggers comments that can say whatever they like with minimal info. Think for yourself...get away from your computer and actually check them out.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Milo 555,
You are all wet... I have breed and SHOWN many dogs what have these wonderful dogs you speak of, done??


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

And EVERY bitch I have bred is on OFA with 4 or 5 clearances... And I breed to Ch dogs with likewise clearances...


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## Angelina (Aug 11, 2011)

I AGREE, Don't feed the TROLL.....


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

milo555 said:


> So, you have checked clearances here and verified yourself there is a problem? Have you checked out this breeder other than sitting at your computer reacting and writing? Have you looked at one piece of data? Spoken to one reference? Would you like to be judged as such...check out your website and if it doesn't have everything listed that I think you should have then I should bad mouth you? Ah the internet...anyone can claim expertise and can say whatever they want. So easy to be an "expert" that way.


And might I enquire as to what _your_ expert credentials are?
Apparently you are not familiar with how the OFA and CERF databases work. They _are _kept current, and they _are _used by “experts” prior to making important breeding decisions, which are not made simply based on the fact that one dog has a penis and two testicles and the other a working uterus. And resulting offspring are not simply sold to anyone with check, cash, credit card, or PayPal account.
Your Utah “English” Goldens ( with not a single dog from England) has a practitioner do cardiac checks vs a board certified veterinary cardiologist (preferred), and is not current on CERF exams (must be done annually). Are you familiar with pigmentary uveitis? Just one of many hereditary eye issues in the breed.
Many of us here are long time members of the parent club, and have been breeding and exhibiting (in all venues) for many years. Some of us judge. All of us have the best interest of the breed at the forefront of everything we do. We tend to not pull this stuff out of nowhere, and have a strong base of ethics and concern for accuracy when “marketing” dogs. 
You might consider that when the thread was first opened (something like two years ago…), based on the report dates now in the above mentioned databases, your Utah “English” Goldens (with not a single dog from England) did NOT have many of the clearances. So your challenge to the integrity of those who had posted is ill founded.
Good luck with the dog that you purchase.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

milo555 said:


> Ah, my point perfectly proven. Instant blog reaction based on you reading what a website has posted on it. NOTHING MORE. No follow-up, no actually looking at the latest information that just simply is not posted...no nothing...instant internet blog reaction. NO FACTS! meaningless website review. Shame on you.


Er, if a person posts something to their own website, and I check it out (using legitimate databases ie OFA, CERF), and the result is that underaged dogs/ dogs without (some or all) clearances are being bred, how is that not "following up"? "Meaningless website review"??? How do you figure? Your Utah "English" Goldens (without a single dog from England) wrote their own website I assume, and their claims have been researched using the very databases that they themselves name as having utilized. Shame on who?


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

milo555 said:


> Plenty of puppy mills have amazing internet sites with all kind of CLEAN certs.


Really? Can you please post links to them? Generally, those "all kind of CLEAN certs" are non-existant when FOLLOWED UP ON, and are proven to be false claims. (If you are referring to actual "puppy mills".)


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

milo555 said:


> I own a low volume business, which has nothing to do with breeding. I accept VISA/MC and it does not cost a lot and, my volume doesn't determine whether I can take credit cards. So many conclusions...so little willingness to consider that there is always more to the story than a website and certs. Opinions are fine...sharing what smells bad fine...using those limited observations to make overall conclusions about a breeder - not OK. I suspect you would not like to be judged and written about based on one or two things I learn about your breeding, from an unknown source.


 
Ahh, but you HAVE judged and written about many of us based on what you've read here, seemingly without understanding what we've based our comments on - legitimate, respected databases.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

milo555 said:


> Plenty of puppy mills have sires & dams that are OFA clean. A breeder that has perfect OFA on all breeding stock, but is a mill that does not properly socialize, is not a better breeder because OFA data is clean.


 
Is a mill or hv breeder who doesn't have clearances but "properly socializes" a better breeder in your eyes? Because as much importance as I assign to socializing puppies, a friendly, confident dog who is blind and crippled doesn't sound like a lot of fun to me.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

And really, puppy mills with clearances? Show me the money...


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

milo555 said:


> It is quite the no brainer that good breeders take great care of insuring good health, be it through a vast list of methods including OFA certs. Nowhere was it stated or implied that this is not important. The point is simple, some bloggers here have indeed made baseless false claims about a breeder smelling like a mill, without doing anything but reviewing a website.


You brought in the word "mill." Everybody else simply said they would not buy a dog from a breeder unless they had proof of all four clearances that are the bare minimum for good breeding.

Without them, you don't have a good breeding. With them, you still may not, but you have one piece. Clearances are necessary but not sufficient to create a good breeding.



milo555 said:


> That is wrong, damaging and irresponsible. A clean looking website, with lots of certs and pedigrees and impressive clean health records speaks nothing to the breeder's environment, cleanliness, puppy care, onsite vet support, food quality, use of supplements, socialization, etc. etc. etc. No one can see the whole picture of a breeder from a website, nor just OFAs.


Nobody said you could. In fact, bad breeders often have glossy websites and great breeders often have a minimal web presence, since they frequently place puppies through word of mouth or through contacts made at the local breed club.

You can, however, without getting up from your computer, verify clearances. So it's actually quite easy to tell if a breeder is doing the bare minimum. If they aren't, you can knock them right off your list. If they are, you can ask the more complicated questions and move to the next steps.



milo555 said:


> I know incredibly responsible breeders that have horrible, incomplete websites and it would be tragic if they were judged by a blogger who deflected folks away from them based on one-dimensional web review. I am not defending; I am pointing out the original point...general comments on whether or not some helpful information may be suspect or missing on a website is fine. Using that observation to make baseless conclusions to bad mouth a breeder without digging deeper...not OK.


For the bajillionth time, it's not about the breeder's website. It's about the fact that the dogs being bred don't have complete clearances. It's not that the breeder hasn't posted those clearances on the website. It's that those clearances can be verified independently on third-party websites, and they either aren't there or—in the case of underage dogs—can't be there.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

kfayard said:


> When it is not in OFA, I consider that pretty LAZY or lack of WILLINGNESS of the Breeder!


For heart clearances, I'm happier when a breeder gets them onto the OFA database, though I wouldn't consider it laziness if they don't. I also strongly prefer that CERF clearances are mailed in each year instead of simply having the exam done, since good breeders and researchers will need the data in order to eradicate hereditary eye conditions. But again, as long as the exam is done, the most important piece is there.

For OFA, passing clearances are _automatically_ put on the OFA site, so if they aren't there, they either weren't done, or the dog failed. Ipso facto.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

On the whole Visa/Paypal thing: I don't really care how a breeder takes payment. In fact, it would be nice if I could get the points on a credit card for such a large purchase. 

What I do care about, though, is whether or not the breeder is screening and interviewing before taking deposits. If a breeder will sell to just anybody, whether the payment be in credit, certified check, or chickens, that tells me that the breeder doesn't really care what happens down the road. I don't want to buy a dog whose breeder doesn't care about his long term welfare, and I don't want my money to support such an operation.

One constant throughout all the good breeders I've met is that they care deeply about their dogs throughout their whole lives. They ask you all kinds of questions up front and won't sell you a dog until they're satisfied that the dog is going to have a great life. They bug you about nutrition, what toys are safe, your tick prevention protocol, etc., and they do stuff like forwarding you e-mails about pet food recalls and new studies on heartworm. They may even get choked up when you leave with the puppy and again, when you call them years later to tell them the puppy has grown old and died.

It's unlikely, just based on the numbers, that a low-volume hobby breeder would find it financially worthwhile to take Visa or Paypal, and I've never heard of one who offered to take either, but it's not the method of payment that matters as much as the interest in the long term welfare of the dog.


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## Snickerdoodle (Sep 29, 2012)

delafrontera said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I will be getting a GR soon and I happen to live in Utah. Has anyone heard of the breeder Utah English Goldens? They apparently have some imported white Goldens from Europe they use to breed.
> 
> ...


Hello everyone. I'm brand new to this site, and not an expert at all. 
I do know this breeder. I drove 8 hours 3 times to visit this breeder. We spent time with the adult dogs, puppies, and the breeders family. We decided to get a puppy.
Am I happy with my dog? (It's three years later) Of course! I love her and couldn't imagine life without her. She is extremely sweet. She also is timid and shy around strangers ... until she is comfortable with them, then they are her best buddy. Her health has been great. 
Will I ever use this breeder again? I'm not sure. I obviously felt comfortable buying from them....but I've read many of your posts and wonder if I was educated enough? 
Anyway....
Just thought I'd share. I hope it helped. 
Snickerdoodle


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

please know that we are all glad you love your dog...many of us have or have had dogs from shelters or from less then ideal breeders...

If you want to know if your dogs parents were bred according to the national breed club's Code of Ethics - the pubic databases are there for you to review or if you want help we can post the links....all you need is the pups registration papers. However, brace yourself that the info you find _*may*_ lead you to learn that you were told white lies or even outright lies in order to separate you from your money.

What you choose to do in the future is your business.....of course most on this forum would like to see all golden buyers insist that breeders do the bare minimum and follow the breeders Code of Ethics - because ultimately it is in the best interest of the breed we love. Most want to encourage the betterment of the breed.


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## Snickerdoodle (Sep 29, 2012)

Hi Liberty,
Yes...I'd love the sites u are talking about. Thank you. 
I'll let you know what I find out. 
Snickerdoodle


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

@ Snickerdoodle--you can take your golden's sire & dam's registered names and enter it into the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals website (Orthopedic Foundation for Animals) and view their clearances...in turn you can look up each dog in the pedigree.


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## Snickerdoodle (Sep 29, 2012)

Hi Sheets
THAnk u! I typed in the parent's registration numbers and this they matched the papers I have. I noticed the "dad" didn't have ELBOW information. Here's all the information: 
Dad: CARDIAC NORMAL, HIPS GOOD, AND EYES 7. 
Mom: CARDIAC NORMAL, HIPS FAIR, ELBOWS NORMAL AND EYES 8.
I'd love any feedback. 
Thank you everyone. 
Snickerdoodle


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## Snickerdoodle (Sep 29, 2012)

Also, I'm trying to become educated so I have a question. Should these tests be updated every few years? 
Thanks
Snickerdoodle


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## Snickerdoodle (Sep 29, 2012)

One more question, I typed in the number on the sires pedigree. Should only the sire come up, or all the dogs listed on the pedigree. Yep, I'm sure it's easy to tell I'm new and uneducated....but I appreciate any answers anyone can give me, because now I really WANT to understand. 
Thank you
snickerdoodle


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## Snickerdoodle (Sep 29, 2012)

Sire=dad right? :/


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Snickerdoodle said:


> Also, I'm trying to become educated so I have a question. Should these tests be updated every few years?
> Thanks
> Snickerdoodle


 
Eyes should be check EVERY year.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Snickerdoodle said:


> One more question, I typed in the number on the sires pedigree. Should only the sire come up, or all the dogs listed on the pedigree. Yep, I'm sure it's easy to tell I'm new and uneducated....but I appreciate any answers anyone can give me, because now I really WANT to understand.
> Thank you
> snickerdoodle


If you are referring to the OFA site you should also see the parents of your dog listed and all siblings (either 1/2 oor full) that have had screenings. If they have not had any of these screenings done and submitted to OFA they will not appear.



Snickerdoodle said:


> Sire=dad right? :/


Yep! :dblthumb2


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Snickerdoodle said:


> Hi Sheets
> THAnk u! I typed in the parent's registration numbers and this they matched the papers I have. I noticed the "dad" didn't have ELBOW information. Here's all the information:
> Dad: CARDIAC NORMAL, HIPS GOOD, AND EYES 7.
> Mom: CARDIAC NORMAL, HIPS FAIR, ELBOWS NORMAL AND EYES 8.
> ...


Is the Sire's call name Gentry? I'm noticing on the heart clearances, they've been accomplished by a "practictioner", the GRCA recommends these be accomplished by a cardiologist. The eye exam (CERF clearance) needs to be performed every year--only clearance that is accomplished annually. Gentry's is out of date.

Couldn't find a female golden on their website with fair hips & elbows accomplished--the one listed, doesn't have elbows OFA'd. 

But I see a consistent trend with out of date CERF exams and practitioner heart clearances. Also on OFA, if the golden has offspring listed (which means clearances accomplished on the offspring) I also see a trend where these goldens are having their first litters at the age of 1--GRCA code of ethics recommends no earlier than the age of 2 which is the earliest all clearances in the U.S. can be accomplished.


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## fauxreals (Oct 5, 2012)

*Looking for a new puppy*

Hi,

I'm a brand new member here and just read through this entire thread. I am looking to buy a puppy for my family and already have a 2 year old labrador retriever at home. My labrador was given to me by a friend who had to move and needed a home for her puppy so I've never gone through the process of finding a breeder. I've tried using google and come up with a lot of English Goldens that are selling for $2000. I live in Salt Lake City and would like to find a local breeder that I can visit and meet before deciding on going through them. How can I go about finding a good breeder?


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## Tally (Oct 16, 2012)

*Primary Sources Always Privide Authenticity and Authoritative Perspectives*

This is a fascinating thread. I must agree with those who suggest that further investigation is warranted beyond the digital world. It appears that, for the majority of posters on this thread, hearsay funds the conclusions that have been made. I'm hard pressed to determine what kind of experience inspired the frustration and negative comments made by some. As a researcher, I do know that primary sources are invaluable to supporting conclusions drawn, and there doesn't appear to be a comment that includes visits to the Utah English Goldens site with any kind of frequency to justify some of the comments. There appears to be a need to damage a business based on some kind of affront that the writer experienced. 

As for myself, I have been to the "Goldens" kennels on several occasions with the purpose of comparisons with other breeders' practices. I have discussed the process and documentation requirements with the owners of "Goldens," and found them to be exemplary. The environment the dogs, both puppies and adults, experience is natural and enjoyable. In no way does it resemble a puppy mill. The owners have personal time with the dogs daily for a number of hours, and the dogs respond to them as their friends and family members. This speaks to me of personal investment of time, devotion, and training, and a level of professionalism in a natural setting that is unparalleled. The dogs are happy and healthy, having been loved by the owners and monitored by more than one veterinarian.

I hope that threads of this nature are the exception here and that whining isn't the mode of expression on other threads. It isn't good reading, isn't informative, and funds negative attitudes that are unsuited to adult "conversation."


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Tally said:


> It appears that, for the majority of posters on this thread, hearsay funds the conclusions that have been made.


Clearances are not hearsay. In fact, they are the primary sources you seem so interested in. If clearances are incomplete on breeding dogs, it's not a good litter to buy a puppy from. End of story. There's a lot more that goes into a good breeding, but if the dogs' clearances are incomplete, there's nothing further you need to discuss before moving on to a different breeder.



Tally said:


> I'm hard pressed to determine what kind of experience inspired the frustration and negative comments made by some.


We care a lot when people breed dogs at elevated risk for debilitating health problems.



Tally said:


> I have discussed the process and documentation requirements with the owners of "Goldens," and found them to be exemplary.


Then either they've really changed what they've been doing in the last couple of years since the original posts were written or you didn't know what documentation to look for when it comes to having breeding clearances done properly.


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## goldentemperment (May 16, 2012)

Not sure I should be playing a part in resurrecting such an old thread, but I can't resist...

Threads like this tend to grow a lot when someone asks about a breeder that displays several of the following characteristics:

1. Breeds dogs that don't have up-to-date clearances, or clearances performed by specialists, or any clearances at all
2. Uses marketing terms like "English Creme" as a way to lure potential buyers, and makes inappropriate distinctions between English and American Goldens, particularly concerning color
3. Does not appear to go outside their lines when choosing a stud (or female)
4. Has out-of-the-ordinary contract requirements, or doesn't offer any guarantees
5. Charges significantly more or significantly less than similar breeders in the geographic area
6. Does not compete their dogs
7. Cannot demonstrate a healthy, long-lived pedigree of the dogs they use to breed
8. Has several forum members with negative experiences
9. Has no prerequisites for people purchasing their puppies besides money

Of course, there's tons of posts on all the aspects of how the "culture" here tends to interpret quality vs. non-quality breeders, but the above seem to be the big ones.

So if you're "hard pressed to determine what kind of experience inspired the frustration and negative comments made by some," it most likely comes from people who are frustrated with breeders who are more concerned about their own enrichment than they are about the health and improvement of the breed and the safety, health, and happiness of the puppies they sell.



Tally said:


> This is a fascinating thread. I must agree with those who suggest that further investigation is warranted beyond the digital world. It appears that, for the majority of posters on this thread, hearsay funds the conclusions that have been made. I'm hard pressed to determine what kind of experience inspired the frustration and negative comments made by some. As a researcher, I do know that primary sources are invaluable to supporting conclusions drawn, and there doesn't appear to be a comment that includes visits to the Utah English Goldens site with any kind of frequency to justify some of the comments. There appears to be a need to damage a business based on some kind of affront that the writer experienced.
> 
> As for myself, I have been to the "Goldens" kennels on several occasions with the purpose of comparisons with other breeders' practices. I have discussed the process and documentation requirements with the owners of "Goldens," and found them to be exemplary. The environment the dogs, both puppies and adults, experience is natural and enjoyable. In no way does it resemble a puppy mill. The owners have personal time with the dogs daily for a number of hours, and the dogs respond to them as their friends and family members. This speaks to me of personal investment of time, devotion, and training, and a level of professionalism in a natural setting that is unparalleled. The dogs are happy and healthy, having been loved by the owners and monitored by more than one veterinarian.
> 
> I hope that threads of this nature are the exception here and that whining isn't the mode of expression on other threads. It isn't good reading, isn't informative, and funds negative attitudes that are unsuited to adult "conversation."


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## Tally (Oct 16, 2012)

utahenglishgoldens.com

There is contact information on the site. I think you will be pleased.

Tally


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## Tally (Oct 16, 2012)

Clearances are not primary sources. They are documentation of primary sources.


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## Tally (Oct 16, 2012)

Thank you, Tim. That is a good, thorough, and useful list. The criteria include clearances but also include sources of information that require more extensive examination of the breeder beyond digital resources.


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## goldentemperment (May 16, 2012)

That's a bit of an odd statement. For all intents and purposes, a primary source and a documentation of primary source (assuming the documentation is not forged, altered, or misconstrued) is the same thing.

There may be a semantic, armchair battle that can be done over this, but it would be a heady, and ultimately time-wasting endeavor for this application.



Tally said:


> Clearances are not primary sources. They are documentation of primary sources.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

goldentemperment said:


> There may be a semantic, armchair battle that can be done over this, but it would be a heady, and ultimately time-wasting endeavor for this application.




I infer by Tally's lack of immediate response that (s)he was regretfully required to endeavor back to their armchair to articulate an adequate response.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Tally said:


> Clearances are not primary sources. They are documentation of primary sources.


So...you think we have to shut up unless we're holding the x-rays ourselves? That's a really fine distinction to make about the difference between primary and secondary source material.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Tally said:


> This is a fascinating thread. I must agree with those who suggest that further investigation is warranted beyond the digital world. It appears that, for the majority of posters on this thread, hearsay funds the conclusions that have been made. I'm hard pressed to determine what kind of experience inspired the frustration and negative comments made by some. As a researcher, I do know that primary sources are invaluable to supporting conclusions drawn, and there doesn't appear to be a comment that includes visits to the Utah English Goldens site with any kind of frequency to justify some of the comments. There appears to be a need to damage a business based on some kind of affront that the writer experienced.
> 
> As for myself, I have been to the "Goldens" kennels on several occasions with the purpose of comparisons with other breeders' practices. I have discussed the process and documentation requirements with the owners of "Goldens," and found them to be exemplary. The environment the dogs, both puppies and adults, experience is natural and enjoyable. In no way does it resemble a puppy mill. The owners have personal time with the dogs daily for a number of hours, and the dogs respond to them as their friends and family members. This speaks to me of personal investment of time, devotion, and training, and a level of professionalism in a natural setting that is unparalleled. The dogs are happy and healthy, having been loved by the owners and monitored by more than one veterinarian.
> 
> I hope that threads of this nature are the exception here and that whining isn't the mode of expression on other threads. It isn't good reading, isn't informative, and funds negative attitudes that are unsuited to adult "conversation."


welcome to the GRF. :wave:
No unfortunately threads such as this are not the exception. The reason being there are many breeders out there that can "talk the talk" but do not "walk the walk". It is not hearsay. There are ways to do things to improve the odds on breeders bettering the breed and producing healthy pups. The digital age has made it much easier for potential buyers to research some of these basic facts. If those basics are not in place it is in their best interest to move on to someone that does. A breeder can be the nicest person to ever walk this earth and love their dogs like no one loves their own dogs, it does NOT make them a good breeder. :no:


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I love the digital age... I would order the OFA clearances yearly to verify and study pedigrees. That generated a lot of paper....


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## soraya0222sor (Jan 25, 2013)

I am not a breeder but love golden retrievers and had followed Utah English goldens webside for more than 5 years now. Have one question to all the breeders out there. I noticed than Princess had her first litter at 11 months old and was bred every heat cycle since then, on average 2 litters each year. She has had more than 8 of them without a break.This could not possibly be good for a dog. Poor thing has been pregnant and nursing puppies all her life. I dont think I would buy a puppy from there. Am I right or wrong?


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Absolutely right 


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