# July 2015 Hunt and Field Training



## Alaska7133

Last weekend was our club specialty show. Conformation, obedience and rally. I groomed Lucy and her handler showed her. I have learned that I do a terrible job showing Lucy. Makes me sad, I wish I was the one in the photos with her. But anyway, she took reserve winners bitch. Which in show lingo that means she was the second best bitch without a championship. So not in the money, but definitely in the running. The judge was a breeder judge Debbie Claussen. She was impressed with Lucy's hard working condition.

In between showing and grooming we worked on blinds. There was a field near where we were showing and it broke up the time nicely. Lucy has decided she likes sitting on the whistle, but she doesn't know an over from a back... Not sure what happened there, but somehow she's forgotten. She loves working with me to find the bumper, but she's getting ready to go into heat is the only thing I can figure. In the past I had trouble getting her to sit on the whistle, but no problems on backs and overs in the right direction. 

Saturday on the 4th, a group of us are headed down to Turnagain Pass to train. It is the most wonderful place to train. I've posted photos of it before and nothing is more wonderful. The water is like glass and the muskeg is very green. It's an old mining camp. Lovely place.


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## krazybronco2

Blinds and lots of them yesterday afternoon. it was cool in the mid 80s when i got out to train. working with cover and key holes through hay bales. initial lines were horrible not sure if she could see the pic or amazed to see all the hay bales but other than that carried some really good cast only one minor cast refusal. the last two blinds were some blinds i saw at a Q about 2 months ago and wanted to run them to see how she did.


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## MillionsofPeaches

oh man, that does look like a good field!


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## Poppy2

WOW,
Slice of Heaven right there!!


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## Loisiana

I got to spend the past two Wednesdays field training. We have done zippity-zero training since the hunt test/WC the first week of April so we were all happy to get out there, despite the heat.

We've only been doing water marks because of the high temps. My dogs were the lowest dogs there ability-wise, the rest of the dogs varied from those working on SH all the way up to dogs with MH and training towards Quals. We all got the same marks, but I stood where some of the concepts would be easier for my guys. 

I was very pleased with Phoenix, he picked up like he'd had no time off. The first mark was on the other side of a long, narrow pond. He jumped in, but I guess as he was jumping in he thought it sure would be a lot faster just to run around because as he landed in the water he turned to the side and started to climb out of the water. But it was steep and muddy and he slipped right back into the water. You could read the little thought bubble over his head go "well sh**, I guess I'll just swim then!" A perfect little self correction, because it was the first time he'd ever even considered cheating.

Second mark he had to go across the pond and bumper was hidden in heavy cover at edge of the next pond. He was perfect 

Next set up was at a different set of ponds. I ran it as a double. Both had him going over a peninsula in the water and marks were both on land. I know he needs more experience getting in and out of water before he does junior, so this gave us lots of in and out opportunity. His first water double, so I was pleased.

Flip ran the same set ups, he is a cheater so we had to address that a couple of times, then once he gets in the water he wants to goof off on the return and not get out of the water, so I had to get on him about that. 

So 3 1/2 hours driving each way for 4 retrieves per dog. Totally worth it 

Bummed that next Wednesday I have a doctor's appointment, the following Wednesday is the golden specialty so even though I'm not entered they won't be training, and the two wednesdays after that I will be up North. Maybe if I pack some bumpers I can convince Michelle to throw some for her grandpup


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## krazybronco2

today was all about marking. first set thrown as singles with G2 retiring before the send. Belle put her face on both marks. second set thrown as a double. my plan was on it being converging marks like the first set but it ended up being an over under. but Belle did really good on the retired bird got a little right of the mark noodled it out and picked it up with out any faults.


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## gdgli

On Friday I had Thor and Buffy in the field. Thor is marking quite well doing singles out to 70-80 yards in moderate cover. We ended the day with a "teaching double". He is focused, runs hard, and is a terrific marker.

Buffy is doing quite well with her blinds. Of course marking can fall off but no big problem for her.

Beautiful weather now has me looking forward to doing more training.


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## Claudia M

Here is our set up from today. First two pics are the marks (ran as double for the older dogs and singles for the pups). Second two pics are the blinds. From the line it does not look like much cover. Once you get into it you can barely see the pups.


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## Claudia M

Here is an idea of the cover they had to go thru.


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## K9-Design

Claudia in your marking pictures with the holding blind even with the shore, and the winger on the hill, where did the marks fall?

We have been training our butts off. Cheating singles with Bally really paying off, he's starting to generalize. KC doing great. We are ready for our trip north in a few weeks!


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## Claudia M

I tried to edit the post to add replace with edited pictures. The go to was to the left, approx 70 degree angle from the memory bird.


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## K9-Design

OK. Those are two contrary marks. We use the term contrary because they are contrary to good training habits. Both marks reward the dogs for majorly caving to factors. Run away from water, and fall off a hill. Both would have been valuable marks if thrown the other way. When setting up marks try to keep the simple mantra of "put the bird where the dog DOESN'T want to go." Don't put them in obvious places that the land funnels the dog to.


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## Claudia M

K9-Design said:


> OK. Those are two contrary marks. We use the term contrary because they are contrary to good training habits. Both marks reward the dogs for majorly caving to factors. Run away from water, and fall off a hill. Both would have been valuable marks if thrown the other way. When setting up marks try to keep the simple mantra of "put the bird where the dog DOESN'T want to go." Don't put them in obvious places that the land funnels the dog to.


Well, I know that you are a much more experienced trainer than any of the 5 people there (three of which are also judges) setting things up. :--big_grin:

Frankly, if it was me I would have swam instead of dipping my feet up to my ankles in that mud.


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## K9-Design

I've seen judges set stuff up like that in hunt tests. That still doesn't make them good marks. 
With the limited time and resources we all have in training our dogs, it's in your best interest to make every mark a good one, and not work against you. Putting the marks in the wrong spot might make it easier for dogs to find them, but it could also reward your dog for repeating bad habits. 
Why did you post the pictures, if you didn't want feedback or critique?


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## Alaska7133

Anney I agree with you. Why not throw towards the water? Why not throw uphill? That would have been a little trickier for the dogs and more fun for everyone.


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## Alaska7133

At what point would you consider someone handling on a mark? If their dog pops and sits to look at them, then the handler puts their arm straight up and says "back". Would you consider that a handle? If you do, how close does the dog have to be to the bird to show that it was handled to the bird. We had this discussion last weekend. A chessie person had a young boy that popped. He turned and sat about 2/3 of the way to the bird. The handler raised her arm and said "back". I told her it was a handle. She said it wasn't because she was just encouraging him. The dog did not find the bird immediately with her "handle", it had to hunt up the bird a bit. Which made me think, if you handle on a mark, shouldn't you not have any option to let the dog hunt up the bird? Shouldn't the dog be handled to the bird at that time? Just looking for opinions.


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## MillionsofPeaches

Stacey, I would consider that a handle. When they are very young I might say something like find it but not say back. The other day Katniss couldn't find the bird and got very lazy in the heat. She looked for it a long time first but then decided to get help. She sat there, right where she knew it would be. That made me mad! She knows better! So I turned around and started walking to the car and she knew better so she went and found it on her own after seeing me leave her butt. ha ha! I don't want her ever to stop hunting!


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## K9-Design

Absolutely that is a handle and if that happens in a test the handler needs to handle to the bird. Even if the dog goes directly to the AOF, still do NOT let the dog just hunt it up and find it on his own at the end. This is why popping is bad.....(let me count the ways)


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## Claudia M

As I said Annie, you are much better and above three judges including field trial judges. I should have run this set up by you first and realize that the dog would WANT to go there. Even though the memory bird was on land and then the follow up blind was thru the water. There was absolutely nothing for the dogs to challenge them on. 

But see, I indulged you on your question because I knew you needed that in order to critique and show us how much better you could have run it. I simply posted it as what we worked on this weekend. Frankly if you have dogs with water trouble any set up would be bad unless it is thru the water (the way the water deficient dog would not want to go). If you have dogs that go straight where you send them this would be a non-issue. So it all depends on what dog you are training.


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## Claudia M

Alaska7133 said:


> At what point would you consider someone handling on a mark? If their dog pops and sits to look at them, then the handler puts their arm straight up and says "back". Would you consider that a handle? If you do, how close does the dog have to be to the bird to show that it was handled to the bird. We had this discussion last weekend. A chessie person had a young boy that popped. He turned and sat about 2/3 of the way to the bird. The handler raised her arm and said "back". I told her it was a handle. She said it wasn't because she was just encouraging him. The dog did not find the bird immediately with her "handle", it had to hunt up the bird a bit. Which made me think, if you handle on a mark, shouldn't you not have any option to let the dog hunt up the bird? Shouldn't the dog be handled to the bird at that time? Just looking for opinions.


I wonder what the dog would have done if she did not give the back, how long did the dog wait before the handler gave the back. If it is a dog newly introduced to blinds more than likely was confused and popped. If the dog was self-correcting, looking for feedback from handler but would have continued his hunt without help it would have been much better. Since the handler did give the back that was a handle and she should have handled all the way to the bird. IMHO handling and then letting the dog hunt is bad for both blind work and marking. The dog does not know when to rely on itself and when to rely on the handler.


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## K9-Design

Claudia M said:


> As I said Annie, you are much better and above three judges including field trial judges. I should have run this set up by you first and realize that the dog would WANT to go there. Even though the memory bird was on land and then the follow up blind was thru the water. There was absolutely nothing for the dogs to challenge them on.
> 
> But see, I indulged you on your question because I knew you needed that in order to critique and show us how much better you could have run it. I simply posted it as what we worked on this weekend. Frankly if you have dogs with water trouble any set up would be bad unless it is thru the water (the way the water deficient dog would not want to go). If you have dogs that go straight where you send them this would be a non-issue. So it all depends on what dog you are training.


Claudia, I hope you are not as rude to the people you train with as you are to me and the people on this forum. I doubt it, as you quickly wouldn't have training partners. Maybe someone else will see your setup pictures and understand my comments and critique and it will help them evaluate their own setups.
And you're right -- I would have run it differently because I don't want to reward my dogs for avoiding water or falling off a hill on a mark. Will setting that up one time teach them bad habits? No -- but doing it repeatedly will.


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## Claudia M

K9-Design said:


> Claudia, I hope you are not as rude to the people you train with as you are to me and the people on this forum. I doubt it, as you quickly wouldn't have training partners. Maybe someone else will see your setup pictures and understand my comments and critique and it will help them evaluate their own setups.
> And you're right -- I would have run it differently because I don't want to reward my dogs for avoiding water or falling off a hill on a mark. Will setting that up one time teach them bad habits? No -- but doing it repeatedly will.


Next time I meet with these guys I will make sure to tell them how horrible the set up was. On a second thought, I think that would be quite rude as they have way more experience than me. Can I use you as a reference for the future so we do not teach the dogs bad habits? 

What would you have done Annie? Argue with the people on the set-up? - I have seen some people like that at the training, their way or the highway. Pack your dogs and drive home? - That releases some of the tensions people in the training group have and allows the others to train in peace.


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## K9-Design

Train your dogs however you like. I'm trying to help, but you'd rather be rude to I guess make a show of it, than actually listen to what I'm explaining. Yes, if I showed up to a training day and this was the setup, I'd either ask for the marks to be thrown the other way for my dogs, move my line and run from a different spot using the same marks, explain my concerns and hope to change the setup, or not run it at all. I've done that PLENTY of times in group training. We train in a group so we can help and learn from each other. You will learn a lot if you ask your training partners why they set up a particular mark or blind, before you run them. Hopefully the answer is better than "because that's where we put the holding blind," "that's how it was in a test" or "to exercise our dogs." You might like the answer or you might not, either way you'll learn about their thought process for setting up training scenarios. It's my goal to make every mark and blind challenge or develop a particular skill, reward a good training habit, and discourage a bad training habit. To do otherwise is to waste your time and effort training and can even set your training back. What skills do you see these two marks as developing or encouraging?


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## FTGoldens

Alaska7133 said:


> At what point would you consider someone handling on a mark? If their dog pops and sits to look at them, then the handler puts their arm straight up and says "back". Would you consider that a handle? If you do, how close does the dog have to be to the bird to show that it was handled to the bird. We had this discussion last weekend. A chessie person had a young boy that popped. He turned and sat about 2/3 of the way to the bird. The handler raised her arm and said "back". I told her it was a handle. She said it wasn't because she was just encouraging him. The dog did not find the bird immediately with her "handle", it had to hunt up the bird a bit. Which made me think, if you handle on a mark, shouldn't you not have any option to let the dog hunt up the bird? Shouldn't the dog be handled to the bird at that time? Just looking for opinions.


Was the handler serious? 
Was this in training or at a test? 
(I'm curious how this discussion came up ... however, regardless of the venue, it was a pop AND a handle (whether I handle all the way to the bird depends on whether I am testing or training and, if the latter, I'll do whatever will most benefit the dog. Generally speaking, however, I am of the opinion that once you begin to handle on a mark, you have taken the responsibility off of the dog's shoulders and placed it on your own ... but that doesn't mean, though, that when training I'll always handle all the way to the mark once I begin handling)).
FTGoldens


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## thomas&betts

K9-Design said:


> Claudia, I hope you are not as rude to the people you train with as you are to me and the people on this forum. I doubt it, as you quickly wouldn't have training partners. Maybe someone else will see your setup pictures and understand my comments and critique and it will help them evaluate their own setups.
> And you're right -- I would have run it differently because I don't want to reward my dogs for avoiding water or falling off a hill on a mark. Will setting that up one time teach them bad habits? No -- but doing it repeatedly will.


I don't find Claudia to be rude or anything but helpful, but I dont yet *"know it all".* I find her and several of the others post very educational. One of the only reasons I check into the Hunt and Field forum is for training tips from Claudia.


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## krazybronco2

K9-Design said:


> I've seen judges set stuff up like that in hunt tests. That still doesn't make them good marks.
> With the limited time and resources we all have in training our dogs, it's in your best interest to make every mark a good one, and not work against you. Putting the marks in the wrong spot might make it easier for dogs to find them, but it could also reward your dog for repeating bad habits.
> Why did you post the pictures, if you didn't want feedback or critique?


i agree i post pics every where i can to get as much feed back as i can on my setups. that is one of the best ways i have found to learn how to set up marks and blinds the second is going to a FT or HT and talking to someone that knows what they are doing or talking to the judges. I have found it very easy to talk to FT judges while they are getting set up to find out why they are throwing marks a certain why and why they are throwing it in a certain order. only had one judge that wasn't having it but most of the time they love explaining why they are doing what they are doing.


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## krazybronco2

so sunday morning worked on a couple of water blinds. concept was mutiple re entries and getting on and off a point in to a cross wind. first blind was good 4 or 5 whistles minor scallop after getting out of the water. second blind was a booger ended up having to break it down into sections to complete it but will be back to run that blind again. over head pic to see everything.


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## Poppy2

KB2,
You have some great land!
Was this the begining of a pattern blind field?


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## MillionsofPeaches

Hey Krazy did they mow??? It looks better than last week.


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## krazybronco2

Poppy2 said:


> KB2,
> You have some great land!
> Was this the begining of a pattern blind field?


not really but it will be a blind that will be revisited from time to time. i only have maybe 1 or 2 other ponds that i could run a blind like the second blind. there have been a couple of blinds i have run with Mr Hugh Arthur and he told me to come back in a couple of weeks and run those blinds again but to add something to them like a mark off to the side, a dry pop, ect... 

i am very lucky to have access to these grounds even with 4 pieces of property it is hard not to repeat some of the marks or the blinds either because the environmental factors (sun, wind, ect...) i normally can only train in the afternoons but will try and get out on friday and sat mornings early so then i can run from a diff direction.


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## Poppy2

Mr. Author gave you sound advice by saying ALAWYS build on the learned thing!

The dog learns by seeing a picture ;-)

So what are you thinking for marks?
What is the prevailing wind?


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## Alaska7133

FT,
It was the mock hunt test I set up last Saturday. I was "judging". Handler is a woman I train with. She has 2 chessies boys that were pistols that day, they had gotten in a huge fight and had to be taken to the vet for stitches. So she was in a bit of mood shall we say. My suggesting it was a handle did seem to make her a bit peeved with me. Anyway I thought raise your arm straight up and say "back" and that's a handle to me to. Then I thought I'd pose it here. I was spoken to by a judge at a hunt test about a movement I made with my arm. I took my hat off while my dog was hunting up a bird. Judge suggested a bit more movement like that and it could be construed to be a handle, so be careful.

I really like it when people post photos of their marks and blinds. I am such an amateur I can only learn. Anney thanks for pointing out the marks landing where they were, it makes me re-think where I throw for my dogs. You're right, side hills or not avoiding water, or running up hill, all things to make dogs think. I might have set up my mock hunt test last weekend a bit differently now that we've had this discussion.


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## Claudia M

thomas&betts said:


> I don't find Claudia to be rude or anything but helpful, but I dont yet *"know it all".* I find her and several of the others post very educational. One of the only reasons I check into the Hunt and Field forum is for training tips from Claudia.


Thomas & Betts thank you for your comment but I am no experienced trainer. I like to feel and know my dogs and train according to their needs. I rely on more experienced trainers on their input when we train. Yeah, I gave in to Anney and her question even though I knew exactly where she was going based on her question. It is my fault, I should have ignored it as I normally do. One thing that I do not like is the "know it all attitude" no matter how wrong. That is fine, I will make sure to relate her concerns to the people that set up the training. I am sure they will have a chuckle at it and we can always make lemonade out of lemons. The bigger the lemons the better the juice. 

Will a dog avoid cover more than water or a hill? It depends on the dog. A dog that is afraid of water would choose cover. But then the same dog will have to go to the blind thru the water right after the memory bird which actually makes the blind more difficult. As far as the first (go to) throw, once again, pine tree in front and lots of cover, an inexperienced dog would rather go thru the open hill than go thru the cover. 

I was personally very happy with the way those pups took thru the cover instead of avoiding it. All pups, Belle being the youngest went right thru it on a nice straight line. If a dog tried to avoid the cover and go up the hill they can easily lose the mark. A much easier mark would have been just like Anney described, up the hill and thru the water thus paving the way to the blind. But again, are we teaching the dog to choose their path or to take the path we tell them to? It depends on the dog and handler. 

As part of a double, the more they avoided the cover on the "go to bird" the more they would have forgotten the memory bird. Thus the dog that did not take a straight line and spent several minutes on the go to bird failed the memory bird.


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## gdgli

Re: Contrary marks (contrary throws)

I believe that would be a good topic for discussion and would like to hear more on this.

As for the second mark that Claudia photographed: I believe that there are a lot of factors in that setup. The dog must run downhill then uphill. It may be a lower hill but it is a hill nevertheless. That little valley between hills is pretty thick cover and the dog must drive through it losing sight of the mark and must orient himself upon emerging from the cover. I also would guess that that little valley has water in it or at least mud---another factor.

If the mark were thrown in the other direction it seems to me that it would encourage the dog to run around the end point of that little valley cover as we know dogs tend to do. In that case the mark would then be a contrary mark---encouraging the dog to skirt the cover.

Just my opinion. I would hope that my dog would run a straight line in either case.


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## Vhuynh2

I took Molly out to train today. I can't remember the last time we trained as we got the keys to our house last Tuesday and she hasn't been anywhere since at least then with the moving and cleaning, but I found time today to take her out. I probably hadn't done a cold blind with her in two months. I don't know if anyone remembers that she started bugging/extreme fidgeting at the line and popping on water blinds after the initial water entry. Although we have not trained much or often since that started to happen, every time I went out, aside from marks, we only did sight and memory blinds and drills. Today, I decided to do a cold blind in water and another on land. Since the water blind was not that long and she could clearly see the other side of the pond, I did not really expect her to pop (she didn't) but I am very happy that she did not bug on either blinds. She was calm at the line and I was able to line her up.


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## krazybronco2

long retired. that will be the concept for the week. had to cross a ditch on both marks. no problems with the go bird, the long retired belle took a good line but squared the ditch should have handled at that point but since it was retired i wanted to see if she would noodle it out. but ended up un retiring the gun and belle got on the right side of the gun and put on a small hunt. slowly making progress still have more work to do before we run our first Q in the fall.


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## Alaska7133

Kb2, that is some flat country. My dogs wouldn't know what to do... on the long retired, you're in white coats I assume, do you have the gunner just sit down in a chair or step behind a blind. Just wondering how retired you make your gunner. I ask because we had a dispute at an Open FT here where they had a gunner retire to a layout blind and most dogs failed that series.


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## krazybronco2

Alaska7133 said:


> Kb2, that is some flat country. My dogs wouldn't know what to do... on the long retired, you're in white coats I assume, do you have the gunner just sit down in a chair or step behind a blind. Just wondering how retired you make your gunner. I ask because we had a dispute at an Open FT here where they had a gunner retire to a layout blind and most dogs failed that series.


i use the thunder equipment retired gun for retired guns because i train alot by myself. it goes down and comes up with the push of a button. but i use a make shift holding blind made out of blind poles (plastic electric fence post), camo burlap, and some zip ties. it is not the easiest way to teach retired guns and would be alot easier with a big training group or 3-4 bird boys for every training session. http://www.thunderequipment.com/products/retiredgunner.php 

and i thought there was a new rule in place about using layout blinds and that they were no longer allowed for a retired gun. i could be wrong and gives me something to do for the day to see if i can find it.


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## MillionsofPeaches

Vivian, that is great about Molly! I bet the break was actually good for her....you know?


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## Alaska7133

Kb2, I didn't know that Thunder guns could be used remotely. Very interesting.


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## FTGoldens

krazybronco2 said:


> and i thought there was a new rule in place about using layout blinds and that they were no longer allowed for a retired gun. i could be wrong and gives me something to do for the day to see if i can find it.


Yes, the rules prohibit use of layout blinds. (This is not a rule that I agree with, but nonetheless follow. A worthy substitute is a ghillie blanket, which you can find in various shades of green and brown.)
FTGoldens


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## krazybronco2

Alaska7133 said:


> Kb2, I didn't know that Thunder guns could be used remotely. Very interesting.


it is not cheap but it works and is just about bullet proof. also it doest go all the way to the ground (about 6-8 in above the ground) but it goes up and down unlike the gunners up or zinger retired guns that just drop the coat. and serves the purpose of being retired to where the dog cant see it from the line.


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## Claudia M

krazybronco2 said:


> it is not cheap but it works and is just about bullet proof. also it doest go all the way to the ground (about 6-8 in above the ground) but it goes up and down unlike the gunners up or zinger retired guns that just drop the coat. and serves the purpose of being retired to where the dog cant see it from the line.


That is indeed very neat! Have been looking for a small light trailer for my equipment. ETA Right now I am so full in the car with three cages I can only put the launcher, holding blind, bumpers, food, water cooler, blind stakes, chairs. When I have the launcher I am limited to one human (the driver) in the car as that takes the front passenger seat. If I want more equipment I will either have to get a bigger car or get a trailer that I can easily attach and detach from the vehicle.


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## Poppy2

krazybronco2 said:


> long retired. that will be the concept for the week. had to cross a ditch on both marks. no problems with the go bird, the long retired belle took a good line but squared the ditch should have handled at that point but since it was retired i wanted to see if she would noodle it out. but ended up un retiring the gun and belle got on the right side of the gun and put on a small hunt. slowly making progress still have more work to do before we run our first Q in the fall.


Did you run this in the same field you ran your blinds in?
I'm thinking your teaching the concepts seperately. Then put it all together once Bella has got it.


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## Vhuynh2

We had a very good, confidence-building session with my trainer yesterday. Exactly what Molly needed. We did a pretty tough blind, but taught it to her in pieces. She was never "wrong", only successful.


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## Alaska7133

Just been taking time each day and throughout the day at work, doing little drills. Some are simple no breaking drills, some are short blinds. I'm trying to keep it fun and get her in the mode of working with me. She's just so full of energy this summer, I hope she keeps it up. Cody has been running her really hard on the trails with his mountain bike. She is in awesome shape and I can't keep any weight on her, 5 cups a day of PPP and she's still needing more.

Yesterday I went shooting at the clay pigeon 5 stand range. I was so happy, I shot 60%! That's my best ever. And I didn't have to shoot against any little 10 year old girls and have my ego shot to shreds. The next 3 Fridays I'm shooting for a hunt test and 2 field trials at Turnagain Pass. It looks like I'll be able to hit my ducks!


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## goldlover68

Running our WCX tests on Saturday. As some may recall we were scheduled earlier this year and our girl hurt her pad on one foot. 

We have been running her on doubles and triples all week. She seem to be marking well....

In our last SH test, during the honor she creeped a bit! In the WCX, the rules seem to be real firm that I cannot talk to her at heal. So I am a bit nervous, will work on it using our other dogs today and tomorrow....but I still will be a bit nervous. She has never broke, but the creeping could hurt our passing...WCX!? And when we move up to MH test...it is not acceptable! So more work to do....


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## MillionsofPeaches

You can't disturb the working dog. I imagine you are nervous. You know don't discredit that WCX as easier than a senior (I'm not sure if you were.) You are a doing a triple with no handling allowed. At least at a senior you get a handle. And our WCX was set up by some very good judges, one is a field trialer. it was no joke 

Not trying to scare you, I know your girl will pass. i know it based on all you say about her. I just don't want you to discredit that WCX. LOL


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## Alaska7133

For some help on steadiness, here's Bill Hillmann's latest video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JV-fJ7B3n4I&sns=fb


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## hollyk

goldlover68 said:


> Running our WCX tests on Saturday. As some may recall we were scheduled earlier this year and our girl hurt her pad on one foot.
> 
> We have been running her on doubles and triples all week. She seem to be marking well....
> 
> In our last SH test, during the honor she creeped a bit! In the WCX, the rules seem to be real firm that I cannot talk to her at heal. So I am a bit nervous, will work on it using our other dogs today and tomorrow....but I still will be a bit nervous. She has never broke, but the creeping could hurt our passing...WCX!? And when we move up to MH test...it is not acceptable! So more work to do....


I have definitely seen dogs creep a bit on honor in MH tests and pass. Of coarse a rock solid honor is best. 
I'm often amazed at how much creep the working dog is allowed without being asked to reheal by the judges before they are released. 

Best of luck at the WCX!


----------



## goldlover68

Alaska7133 said:


> For some help on steadiness, here's Bill Hillmann's latest video:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JV-fJ7B3n4I&sns=fb


As always Alaska....! Thanks...!

I will let you all know how I do (my girl is fine), I just not the best handler in the county. But we will 'get 'er done!


----------



## goldlover68

MillionsofPeaches said:


> You can't disturb the working dog. I imagine you are nervous. You know don't discredit that WCX as easier than a senior (I'm not sure if you were.) You are a doing a triple with no handling allowed. At least at a senior you get a handle. And our WCX was set up by some very good judges, one is a field trialer. it was no joke
> 
> Not trying to scare you, I know your girl will pass. i know it based on all you say about her. I just don't want you to discredit that WCX. LOL


Yep, you all gave me some good hints and 'watch out for' when I was planning to run the WCX in Oklahoma....so I started taking it real serious then! I have worked hard running her on marks...many singles, some doubles and now triples...she seems to be lining her memory marks well and she has always been good at 'Gorilla' hunts if she goes off line or takes a bad line...as long as she can scent the bird, she will find it!

If we line up for a memory mark and I can see she is not sure, I can heel her on a line and send her, even without the dead bird command, she will run it like a blind. On her SH tests she line over 50% or her blinds....so that is my fall back...

Of course, as you guys know, you cannot ever be sure how they are going to act as you get on the line....but we will have some fun..

I have the running order and they only have 4 dogs running WCX, she is going first...that can be a good thing or that can be a bad thing. 2 are SH and 2 are JH....all are Golden's...

Does any of you know, if she messes up on the land marks, does she still get to run the water marks?

Not that I am worried or anything...??!!:crossfing:bowl:


----------



## MillionsofPeaches

You can always ask to be test dog 
When we ran it we had five dogs for the WCX, 4 goldens and 1 flat coat. three dogs didn't pass and three dogs didn't move onto water. 
It might just matter how full they are with the WC dogs. We had a lot of entries for that and it was burning hot. I really think they didn't want to waste more time running any dogs that shouldn't be running.


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## goldlover68

MillionsofPeaches said:


> You can always ask to be test dog
> When we ran it we had five dogs for the WCX, 4 goldens and 1 flat coat. three dogs didn't pass and three dogs didn't move onto water.
> It might just matter how full they are with the WC dogs. We had a lot of entries for that and it was burning hot. I really think they didn't want to waste more time running any dogs that shouldn't be running.


Thanks...are you suggesting we try and run her as the test dog on WC?
Is that allowed if we are running in WCX?

They show 7 WC dogs and 4 WCX, of course that could change. The tests are to start at 9am and the high for that day is now forecast at 90 degrees, so I hope they move along quickly, I do not like exposing my pup to high temps like that when running. She is an extremely high drive girl, and our trainer have warned us to watch her when working he in warm weather...she just will not slow down or back off.....sometimes to a fault!

I ran her this morning on some doubles and trips, after running like a MH yesterday, she ran like a complete idiot today. Once and a while she just seems to lose it, I cannot explain it and neither could our trainers. She ran hard at the marks and ran right by them...like another 40-50 yds? I had to handle her back, which is exactly what I did not want to do...with the WCX coming. After that we simplified and when to doubles and she ran well...so we finished on a high note. 

So, hope she brings the right brain with her when we run on Saturday! I will have one more chance to run some confidence marks with her tomorrow evening, as the hotel we are staying in has a nice field next to it...

More next week....!


----------



## gdgli

goldlover68 said:


> Thanks...are you suggesting we try and run her as the test dog on WC?
> Is that allowed if we are running in WCX?
> 
> They show 7 WC dogs and 4 WCX, of course that could change. The tests are to start at 9am and the high for that day is now forecast at 90 degrees, so I hope they move along quickly, I do not like exposing my pup to high temps like that when running. She is an extremely high drive girl, and our trainer have warned us to watch her when working he in warm weather...she just will not slow down or back off.....sometimes to a fault!
> 
> I ran her this morning on some doubles and trips, after running like a MH yesterday, she ran like a complete idiot today. Once and a while she just seems to lose it, I cannot explain it and neither could our trainers. She ran hard at the marks and ran right by them...like another 40-50 yds? I had to handle her back, which is exactly what I did not want to do...with the WCX coming. After that we simplified and when to doubles and she ran well...so we finished on a high note.
> 
> So, hope she brings the right brain with her when we run on Saturday! I will have one more chance to run some confidence marks with her tomorrow evening, as the hotel we are staying in has a nice field next to it...
> 
> More next week....!


Let me guess---she is a fireball...............


----------



## MillionsofPeaches

NO. You asked if she failed land could she run in the water anyhow. I said, you could always ask to run her as the test dog in the water for the WCX if she did indeed fail land. I don't think that is going to happen so I don't worry about it! LOL!! 
She will pass!


----------



## MillionsofPeaches

oh and btw....I have a running joke. Katniss always sucks the days before a test. Like her worst runs ever. Now we say it is good luck and if she doesn't suck then we need to worry!


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## goldlover68

MillionsofPeaches said:


> oh and btw....I have a running joke. Katniss always sucks the days before a test. Like her worst runs ever. Now we say it is good luck and if she doesn't suck then we need to worry!


 Now I feel better....I think


----------



## goldlover68

gdgli said:


> Let me guess---she is a fireball...............


 Yep, our trainers call her "Crakerjack"....when she is on, it is a beautiful thing to watch...when she is in 'scatterbrain' mode....it is wild!:doh:


----------



## hotel4dogs

anxiously awaiting a post about a certain Tito x Abby puppy having an awesome weekend....


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## fourlakes

hotel4dogs said:


> anxiously awaiting a post about a certain Tito x Abby puppy having an awesome weekend....


No kidding!!! Come on.... you two are way entitled to brags!


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## Alaska7133

Shot for a senior hunt test on Friday. I think we only had 9 dogs. It was a really tough test with very difficult grounds at Turnagain Pass. I was pretty surprised how hard it was. 3 dogs made it to water. From the field it was interesting to watch the dogs and handlers. One dog, a Stanley Steamer pup, was being run by a guy that had just been running JH last year and was new to SH. The dog did spectacular on the double retrieve. But on the blind it was criss crossing all over the place. Couldn't figure it out until I looked at the handler. The handler was talking with the judges while his dog was running the blind. But the handler was talking with his hands when he was running his dog. It made the dog go all over the place. Finally the guy woke up from what he was doing and stopped talking with his hands. Then the dog did just fine and was perfect. What an odd thing for a handler to do, I think he was very nervous. Note to self, when running a blind, don't move your hands for any reason except to handle your dog. 

This test was so hard, the only thing that didn't make it a qualifying field trial, was the distances weren't as far and it was a double not a triple. Other than that it was off the scale in difficulty. I'm really glad I didn't run Lucy. For a human the grounds were barely walkable it was so thick with willow brush and creeks and steep areas. It was ugly. I'm going to hold out to run her first SH on the hay fields up north that are way easier to navigate.


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## boomers_dawn

I also didn't train my dogs this weekend but learned a lot by working - 

Marshalled at SH and worked the line - I can tell I learned a lot since we ran SH because I would watch the dogs and think to myself: "tweet" "TWEET"! "What are you waiting for??!!" The other major handler error was watching handlers let their dogs run around hunting on the blind (as opposed to running in a line towards some direction). 

Gladys did bye dog and the judges said we could do the blind, was excited to try it because the field was cut in strips that mimicked roads! It felt easy not being under judgement and we did good (by my standards at least). We got to be pick up dog then it was my turn to be DAH by not knowing where the bird was: sent Gladys all over, got mad b/c she started blowing me off, till the gunners yelled: "She's right on it !!!!!" 

Apprenticed at JH- judges great teachers. I learned most about scoring. We were mostly on the same page except mine were higher in some cases and I put ? in some places where I had questions ... one example: some dogs didn't want to go out and needed to be re-sent multiple times or didn't want to pick up birds and needed to be told multiple times. If they end up doing what they were supposed to, is that high perseverance and courage because they were afraid to do it but overcame and did it? The judges said no, this is still low, because by the time they show up at a junior test, they should do these things without needing to be told multiple times .. and it could be a training issue - they should be trained to go in the muck pond, cross rows of cover, pick up a live bird, etc. 

Another huge take-home for me was about style and trainability scoring, I was more lenient than the judges b/c I'm used to 2 legged heeling, whining, squeaking, tap dancing, and thought it was great enthusiasm; but if they're acting up is a trainability issue - one of the judges said "you aren't scoring cute" then tapped the AKC manual and said "you're scoring for this"


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## gdgli

boomers dawn

The big issues that you saw today are what I see at the Junior level. I think many dogs have never seen a cripple, I mean a real cripple, a bird flapping its wings and moving around. Also, dogs that failed to drive through cover i.e. the 2 or 3 bands of cover to get to the bird. (BTW, kudos to whomever mowed the through the cover, that was great! I ran Thor a bit after everyone moved out.) Notice how many dogs stopped at the corner of the first bit of cover? They are not used to this. Then the dogs with a poor pickup and handler yelling "fetch" several times to no avail. OK, so you don't want to FF, that's OK but at least train a responsive command. And then I saw dogs that absolutely did not focus on the field. Handler/trainer error, a hunt test dog should have some cues that something is going to happen in the field, look out there darn it!

PS I saw some good shooting.


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## gdgli

I took advantage of the field I was in. I ran Thor straight through cover that had clear strips mowed through it. I than ran him through this stuff at an angle. I was very happy to get this opportunity.

Buffy is recovering from anaplasmosis. She has regained most of her energy but today's heat ( approx. 90 deg) did seem to slow her a bit but we had a good day.


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## Alaska7133

George I hope Buffy is ok soon!


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## K9-Design

Stacy, what made the senior test so difficult? I can't imagine talking to the judges while running a blind! Wow!


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## Poppy2

I know a pro that talks to the judges all the time. He also is talking to his dog with his hand movements unknown the the judges.
SNEAKY

Look a snake!! As he points that way.

This was on a mark though, that the dog was having a big hunt. Dog circled back around up wind of the bird. Guy yelled, look a snake! Dog looked at the guy as he pointed that way and got the bird.
The judges were still looking for the snake when the dog was bringing back the bird.

Funny stuff right there.


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## fourlakes

hotel4dogs said:


> anxiously awaiting a post about a certain Tito x Abby puppy having an awesome weekend....


Someone doesn't like to brag.... so I'll give a clue: I noticed there are a few new letters after Shala's name on K9data:

*SHR Four Lakes Sweet Potato Pie DS CGN WC CCA (5/11/2013-)*


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## Sweet Girl

fourlakes said:


> Someone doesn't like to brag.... so I'll give a clue: I noticed there are a few new letters after Shala's name on K9data:
> 
> *SHR Four Lakes Sweet Potato Pie DS CGN WC CCA (5/11/2013-)*


 Aw, thank you! Shala had a really good weekend! The CCA was really interesting - I learned a lot about her. And I love that she got three 10s for temperament from the judges! They loved her. 

And she did great work at the WC. I felt like she had a really good day all around. On her first water mark, when she grabbed the bird, it entirely covered her face. The wing was sticking up funny and was completely over her eyes. I could tell she could not see where she was going and could not see me - so I had to guide her back to me with a lot of voice. She made it back right to the line perfectly. 

Onwards to the JH...


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## Alaska7133

Congratulations!

Anney,
The land is very steep in places and you have to grab onto the willows to pull yourself up. The willow brush is shoulder high in a lot of sections and difficult to push your way through. Then you get to a flat bench area with tall grass, then up another bank filled with willow brush to another bench, then it continues on. The willows are extremely thick. The streams have deep cut banks and are fast running and deep, I had to scramble down the side and back up the other bank. The highway is close by and the road noise makes a handle difficult to be heard. Very challenging for any dogs in this section. Other parts of the pass are a lot easier with muskeg that is spongy and deep. Those willows though are pretty bad to get through. When the dogs were running you couldn't see them most of the time. Several dogs just couldn't figure out which bench the duck was on and failed to find their mark. Distances were standard SH. The forest service has been difficult to work with to allow us to cut the willow brush back like we have in years past.


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## goldlover68

Alaska...you all are a 'special breed' of dogs and people to run in that kind of set up! I grew up in the mountains of Colorado, so I have an idea (small) or what that all would be like. I cannot imagine running a dog in that....but maybe a good place for a moose hunt!?

Thanks for sharing...we in the 'lower 48 have no idea!'


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## Alaska7133

Every place has it's difficulties. We don't have snakes or alligators. We don't have heat and humidity like you all do. Every place is different and all are hard in their own way. It's just understanding how the dog needs to run in that environment. Last year I ran some hunt tests in the "desert", at least it was desert to me. My dog had never seen rolling clouds of dust or cactus and sticker bushes.


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## Alaska7133

Lost a good dog yesterday. Reilly lost his battle with cancer. It was probably bone cancer or something like that. We chased his symptoms for several months. He barely slowed down. He was a lover of any kind of bird in all kinds of environments. Never bothered him to be blind in one eye. Never bothered him that he had grade 3 elbows and mild hips. He was not slowed down one bit. He loved all dogs and all people, but especially he loved all puppies. He was always in a good mood and his temperament was exceptional. He was the dog that was always 200 yards ahead on the trail or down the street stealing ripe raspberries off the neighbors bushes. He was the first to bark at the bears and chase them off. He was the last to go to sleep at night and the first up and ready to go. He loved our raft and going down rivers. He was always happy. I only saw him get mad once, when another dog broke and tried to steal his duck on a retrieve. Reilly lit into the other dog and let him know that was Reilly's bird. That was the only time. Reilly was of course the proverbial perfect dog, but aren't they all? I never force fetched Reilly and actually barely trained him, he was a natural. I used an e-collar on him only because he liked to eat his birds on the way back to me or he tended to forget to come back when he was too far ahead on the trail. Here's Reilly's pedigree: Pedigree: Grayling Reilly CGC We will all miss him, especially Lucy will miss him the most.


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## goldlover68

Very sorry for your loss! What a special dog he was and you gave him a wonderful heart felt eulogy. When they are gone, they really never leave us as we see them, hear them, recognize things they did, for the rest of our lives! I believe there is a special place for our dogs in heaven, where they wait for us to join them.

God Bless you and all who loved Reilly! He was a lucky dog to have such a wonderful life you provided for him.


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## boomers_dawn

I'm also very sorry for your loss of Reilly. He sounds like a huge presence in your home and family and will leave a big hole. Wishing you all peace and comfort.


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## Vhuynh2

Stacey, I'm so sorry for your loss. It sounds like Reilly was an amazingly special boy.


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## hotel4dogs

Oh Stacey, I'm so sorry to hear about Reilly. Run free sweet boy.


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## Sweet Girl

I'm so sorry to hear about Reilly. He sounds like he was a one in a million.


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## gdgli

I am very sorry to hear about your loss.


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## FTGoldens

Ahhh, dang, I hate to hear that.
Rest in peace, Reilly ... and now ALL the birds are yours ....


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## hollyk

Stacey, what a lovely tribute to your boy. I hope you can smile though your tears when you think of him. 
Godspeed Reilly, I hear they are all fliers in heaven.


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## MillionsofPeaches

Oh gosh, Stacey, I'm so sorry for your loss. I always enjoyed reading about Reilly in the field, everything about him was finding the best in life. What a special guy. I know he will be missed.


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## Claudia M

So very sorry for your loss of Reilly


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## Alaska7133

So after my misadventures on Sunday night with Reilly, Lucy has said that she is not a show dog and will not be interested in showing on Saturday and Sunday at the dog shows. She instead has made it clear that we are doing the spaniel hunt tests on Saturday and Sunday. So she is entered in senior both days. I think she made the smart choice. Get in all the fun you can while they are here with us, don't just wonder what you could have done.

So off to the spaniel tests we go! Wish us luck! I'm betting we will have a LOT more fun than showing at the dog shows.


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## hotel4dogs

Have a GREAT time, can't wait to hear about it!
Good choice, Lucy!


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## MillionsofPeaches

I happen to agree with ms. Lucy but what do I know? ha ha! I'm excited to hear all about it!


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## gdgli

We ended up having an awesome day. Buffy and I trained in the AM on blinds. 

In the PM we trained again. I ran Buffy on some blinds. Then we did a triple with birds. I also ran Thor. We did walking singles and I got him out to about 140 yards. I will stretch him out some more in the future. We finished Thor on a Y drill.

Both dogs ran quite well.


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## MillionsofPeaches

Ha! Proof did that Y tonight!


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## Vhuynh2

Last Friday, Molly did her first cold blinds in a couple months and she did very well! Her blinds were good but her singles on land were not great. She put up a bigger than normal hunt and would fade towards the wingers, which is unusual for her. When we do have time to train, we mostly do water, so I realized how much work she really needs on land. What's GREAT is that my new neighborhood has a pretty sizable park. And since I'm out in the country now in an unincorporated area, there is no leash law. I wouldn't haul my wingers out there but it is *perfect* for walking singles, so today dragged my bf out to throw for me. It is still pretty warm, so we only did a few, but she was marking way better than on Friday.


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## FTGoldens

Last night demonstrated to me (again! ... I guess I'm a slow learner) the value of revisiting some of the basic and transition elements. I set up a mini-T for my youngest dog who, due to slowly maturing, is just now in basics. After that, I decided to add two more piles for my "all-age" dog and do a five-legged casting drill just as a refresher. Geesh! That refresher was challenging, to say the least! Firstly I couldn't get a clean Over. And after that got fixed, we struggled with straight Backs. And then the Angle Backs were equally mysterious to the dog. Nonetheless, we got through it BUT will visit it again this evening. Refresher courses are generally never a waste of time.
FTGoldens


----------



## MillionsofPeaches

Ha! I guess all the dogs were crazy yesterday! Last night I met my training partner out for a quick session to burn some energy. It was 8 pm and still 93 degrees. katniss did okay on a new concept for her, better than I would have figured BUT after that she acted like she had never been in a field before. She was also laying down and giving me the dew claw because of the heat. I didn't even finish the session with her, its not worth it when she is being so belligerent. Proof was a freaking nut case too. We heeled to the mat off lead and he did awesome, self correcting himself and this time didn't push ahead of me at all. I was thinking, oh goody. Then we get to the mat and he lines up, does awesome, all that. TP was thowing Y marks. Lined the mark and then got it...After that he acted like a maniac running all over the place, finally came back and delivered good. Lined him up again, same thing but didn't blow me off as bad on the return. Third mark, forgetaboutit. He lined it great, but decided to go check out some trash in the field. I don't know if it was a matter of pent up energy (as we haven't trained in a week) or if he was just being an a$$. Oh well, we have been doing plenty of OB at home. I think Friday I'm going to start off with OB in the field before we start.


----------



## Claudia M

FTGoldens said:


> Last night demonstrated to me (again! ... I guess I'm a slow learner) the value of revisiting some of the basic and transition elements. *I set up a mini-T for my youngest dog who, due to slowly maturing, is just now in basics.* After that, I decided to add two more piles for my "all-age" dog and do a five-legged casting drill just as a refresher. Geesh! That refresher was challenging, to say the least! Firstly I couldn't get a clean Over. And after that got fixed, we struggled with straight Backs. And then the Angle Backs were equally mysterious to the dog. Nonetheless, we got through it BUT will visit it again this evening. Refresher courses are generally never a waste of time.
> FTGoldens


I have to keep on remembering the puppy and slower maturity in goldens. Saturday I was about to just give up. 
Rose has the nastiest hot spot I have ever seen and she is out of training.
Darcy is getting ready to go in heat.
Belle - well, is being a puppy and makes me want to scream at times. Maybe I should scream and scare all the foxes, groundhogs, deer and all the other animals that decide to leave their scent there so she can focus on the marks and not on what she smells on her way to them.


----------



## Vhuynh2

Anyone have any experience with a dogtra winger launcher receiver with water damage? I get rewarded for going out to train with my winger tipping over into the pond. The light is flashing green (has been 7 hours now) and won't turn off. It is non functional.


----------



## MillionsofPeaches

I think that is what I have. Indeed it fell in the pond one day and it wouldn't quack any more. So stuck it in a bucket of rice and the next day it worked like new. Can you try that? That rice trick really is magical to me!


----------



## goldlover68

Claudia M said:


> I have to keep on remembering the puppy and slower maturity in goldens. Saturday I was about to just give up.
> Rose has the nastiest hot spot I have ever seen and she is out of training.
> Darcy is getting ready to go in heat.
> Belle - well, is being a puppy and makes me want to scream at times. Maybe I should scream and scare all the foxes, groundhogs, deer and all the other animals that decide to leave their scent there so she can focus on the marks and not on what she smells on her way to them.


Boy can I relate! We took our youngest pup up to our trainer when she was just a bit over 6 months. The first month of obedience went pretty well but early in the second month our trainer called me to 'pick up my dog'! My heart feel through the floor as this was the best dog we could afford, and I feared she may be a dud! OMG....Our trainer, who I have learned to respect a great deal, explained that he thought her problems were just immaturity. He said some Golden's just mature at slower rates. He suggested we take her home and just enjoy her, but keeping the obedience going, for 3-4 months. Then we would try again. At the time I was sad, and concerned...but did as he requested. I did a lot of fun yard work with her and of course constantly reinforced her obedience training. During the yard work it was hard to keep her focused, when she was listening she performed wonderful, but at times, she just wanted to stop listening and just play....so I guess I experienced first hand what an immature pup acts like! :doh:

We took her back 15 weeks later, and held our breath. After another month our trainer was finally ready to say she was matured nicely and was making good progress.....Jump forward a bit short of 2 years and we have a cute little gal who has SH and WCX after her name.....

Sometimes we just gotta be patient....


----------



## Alaska7133

Vhuynh2 said:


> Anyone have any experience with a dogtra winger launcher receiver with water damage? I get rewarded for going out to train with my winger tipping over into the pond. The light is flashing green (has been 7 hours now) and won't turn off. It is non functional.


Have you tried calling Dogtra? I've heard they have good customer service. Better than Garmin.


----------



## Claudia M

Vhuynh2 said:


> Anyone have any experience with a dogtra winger launcher receiver with water damage? I get rewarded for going out to train with my winger tipping over into the pond. The light is flashing green (has been 7 hours now) and won't turn off. It is non functional.


Darcy's Dogtra collar had water damage. Mailed it to them and within a week I had a new one in hand. 
Give them a call - their are excellent.


----------



## Claudia M

goldlover68 said:


> Boy can I relate! We took our youngest pup up to our trainer when she was just a bit over 6 months. The first month of obedience went pretty well but early in the second month our trainer called me to 'pick up my dog'! My heart feel through the floor as this was the best dog we could afford, and I feared she may be a dud! OMG....Our trainer, who I have learned to respect a great deal, explained that he thought her problems were just immaturity. He said some Golden's just mature at slower rates. He suggested we take her home and just enjoy her, but keeping the obedience going, for 3-4 months. Then we would try again. At the time I was sad, and concerned...but did as he requested. I did a lot of fun yard work with her and of course constantly reinforced her obedience training. During the yard work it was hard to keep her focused, when she was listening she performed wonderful, but at times, she just wanted to stop listening and just play....so I guess I experienced first hand what an immature pup acts like! :doh:
> 
> We took her back 15 weeks later, and held our breath. After another month our trainer was finally ready to say she was matured nicely and was making good progress.....Jump forward a bit short of 2 years and we have a cute little gal who has SH and WCX after her name.....
> 
> Sometimes we just gotta be patient....



AHHH - Patience is a virtue! But such a hard one to attain.  

Last week I was really in a self pity mode. Missed a super singles and puppy stakes fun day. Finally got the hot spot to dry out and heal and now Rose has a pinched nerve. Could not go up the stairs or get on the bed. Waiting to hear from a chiropractor vet. 

Belle would pay attention on the mark but once sent she would lose focus. We cut up all the lower branches in the back yard, cleaned it all up to increase her marks on all mowed grass. No cover, no groundhog holes to distract her. 
This past week has shown a lot of improvement. Morning we would work on field obedience, fetch/hold rotating with canvas, dokkens and plastic bumpers.


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## goldlover68

Claudia M said:


> AHHH - Patience is a virtue! But such a hard one to attain.
> 
> Last week I was really in a self pity mode. Missed a super singles and puppy stakes fun day. Finally got the hot spot to dry out and heal and now Rose has a pinched nerve. Could not go up the stairs or get on the bed. Waiting to hear from a chiropractor vet.
> 
> Belle would pay attention on the mark but once sent she would lose focus. We cut up all the lower branches in the back yard, cleaned it all up to increase her marks on all mowed grass. No cover, no groundhog holes to distract her.
> This past week has shown a lot of improvement. Morning we would work on field obedience, fetch/hold rotating with canvas, dokkens and plastic bumpers.


Maybe some feathers and scent will help the young one stay focused...if not that a few live birds mixed in...?


----------



## MillionsofPeaches

So we've been training a lot, I say a lot because it is 100 plus temps outside yet we've managed to train quite frequently in the mornings and a few times in the evenings lately. 

Saturday proof had his first live flyer during water marks. I wasn't sure how it was going to go. We had three pretty good marks, one that was a 'freebie" i would say because it was the shortest and just moving through cover. The second was a live flyer that was a strong angle entry in for the big dogs and out of the water up the shore about twenty yards. the last was an even longer angle entry with about twenty yards on a slope down to the water and then crossing over a finger but swimming past an island and through a stick pond to the far corner of the pond. I squared those for Proof. 

Proof did perfect for the first "freebie" mark, which I was only concerned about cheating the way back which has been an issue that we are finally seeing results with. So he didn't cheat coming back. The second was the live flyer. After I sent him I realized this was a risky move as he went up a slope about twenty yards to get it and beyond that was acres of field, lol. Plenty of room for him to take off with his bird. 

So he gets to the duck and I see him taking a bit of time but he picked it up. Instead of coming straight to me he turned to run along the bank. I was whistling him but he ignored me. I gave him one nic and that booger turned right around and came back to me immediately. I was very happy! That means all that cc work I've been doing in the yard made a difference. He comes back to me and drops the duck and fiddles around with it which he doesn't normally do, he wasn't biting at it just moving it around. he gets it and I take it and the duck is completely alive. I don't even see where she was shot. Of course it was my husband and daughter shooting, lol! But I was very impressed that he brought me this live duck all the way back. He loves his live birds.

The third mark was difficult for him as he got out there but lost his line through the sticks. The bird boy threw him another and he got it. 

Then yesterday I went out and ran nearly the same set up with a few adjustments and no live flier. The first two marks were converging marks with a short in the cattails along the bank and the second long almost near where the life flyers were falling. The third was almost the same as the long one from the day before but I had shortened it a bit. No need for a 130 plus swimming mark when I more concerned with the concept than if they can swim it. I already knew they could swim it from Saturday. 

So we ran the big dogs and they were doing great. Katniss did much better keeping her line on the very long bird and didn't get sucked into that island as the line was only a few feet away. I go to run proof and he surprised me. So I sent him for the short bird and he did great, got it and turned right back around and came into the water. The second bird he ran past the old fall of the short bird no problem and runs straight to the bird but bypasses it and looks everywhere for that old live flyer. They remember everything! So I let him figure it out and he came back around and picked up the dead duck. He turned ran down to the shore and then starts to square into it. I nick'd him and sure enough he stops and goes in the right way. Very happy with that. The third one was interesting. I was going to square him in but totally blanked out. I ran him at that very strong angle entry that I had run Katniss. There is just a bit of water in the crook of the finger coming out that they pass and then get back on the finger then back in the pond. So I send him and immediately he veers to cheat around to the finger. I thought oh shi# I forgot to square him. Before I could do anything else I went NO, here! and Proof stops about 7 feet away from me. I say no proof and resend him and he took the right line! It was nuts! I was surprised that he did that. So I'm happy he is now at the stage where I can start correcting him without losing that momentum. He takes the line but again he goes to this stump in the water and loses his line. So the bird boy helped him out and he got it. Still impressive because he did get on and off the finger and swam past the island instead of turning to get on it. 
All of this with staying steady at water! I didn't hold him. I'm really impressed with that little dude! 
After that we went to the field and did some walking singles with a cross wind and lots of cover. Proof did good on that. He didn't over run them or get caught in the crosswind but did have to work hard at marking with that cover. 

At home we have been working on some obedience, FF and CC. Also I have started introducing his right and left backs to a pile. Not too much just enough to mix things up and he really likes it. He already has been running to a pile on back so I wanted to introduce this. He does really well and knowing which way to turn on my hand. Oh and also honoring in the yard with Katniss. But I try not to do too too much as I don't want to snuff out any of the momentum he has. But its hard, he is so capable yet when he does have an issue he reminds me he is still only 7 months old. I guess that is how it is with your second dog just like a second child. I treat him a lot more like a big dog because I work him doing a lot of what Katniss is doing but just modifying it occasionally. 

Katniss has just been working a ton on the tech pond as that is one of her weaknesses. Exposing her to it over and over again has helped her immensely! She is taking great lines now where before she would get kind of lost after crossing a finger. So now she is building up her mental images which is great. She is also taking longer blinds with lots more concept. Her biggest issue lately has been popping suddenly as she comes up to a concept she is unsure of. So if she crosses a finger then she will turn to me before continuing her line as if to say this is where you want me to go? and I will correct her for that. Yesterday though she did great with a blind that she had to go over the finger and over the island that she had just swam past for the mark. This time she had to go on it and then off. She didn't pop at that island which I thought she would and continued back into the water and up the shore to the bumper. I was happy! 
So just working working and the dogs are very happy right now! I love it!! The summer is almost over with the kids going back to school in a week and I'll be getting back into a schedule with the dogs again. I am happy about cooler temps but this was a really nice summer and I'll miss it


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## Vhuynh2

My BF took it upon himself to open up the receiver. He dried everything with a q-tip and now it works! So glad there wasn't any permanent damage (that I know of).


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## goldlover68

All right you all I have a question my girl in training has been creeping on marks...I give her the heel, burn, heel and she scoots back on heel then I pause briefly and send her. 

Next time she does the same...I fear I am conditioning her vs. training her...?

She has been real steady for a long while. In her last SH test, on her last honor on the water marks she creeped. First time since JH level I have seen this with her. I gave her a soft heel and she popped right back on heel, the judge did mention it to me, but said since she was solid all day, she passed. 

About three weeks later we ran he for the WCX and on the last test, water honor she broke on the gun fire, I gave he a heel and she heeled. The judges after talking it over said they thought it was a controlled break, and I get 1..so she passed....

I am starting to work with her in prep for MH..and this stuff has to be cleared up. I will call my trainer and get their input....but all thoughts are good!


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## Claudia M

goldlover68 said:


> Maybe some feathers and scent will help the young one stay focused...if not that a few live birds mixed in...?


At the farm we train only with birds. Rarely do we train with bumpers. But it is also lots of cover, lots of smells and distractions on a young pup, more so to a golden with an excellent nose. Belle is still tiny. As of last week she is 20 5/8" tall. 

As of August we can have live birds. Cannot remember if it is Aug 1st or 15th.


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## tpd5

goldlover68 said:


> All right you all I have a question my girl in training has been creeping on marks...I give her the heel, burn, heel and she scoots back on heel then I pause briefly and send her.
> 
> Next time she does the same...I fear I am conditioning her vs. training her...?
> 
> She has been real steady for a long while. In her last SH test, on her last honor on the water marks she creeped. First time since JH level I have seen this with her. I gave her a soft heel and she popped right back on heel, the judge did mention it to me, but said since she was solid all day, she passed.
> 
> About three weeks later we ran he for the WCX and on the last test, water honor she broke on the gun fire, I gave he a heel and she heeled. The judges after talking it over said they thought it was a controlled break, and I get 1..so she passed....
> 
> I am starting to work with her in prep for MH..and this stuff has to be cleared up. I will call my trainer and get their input....but all thoughts are good!


Is this something new or has it been a problem for some time?

Do you have a heeling stick? If you do its "sit, stick,sit". She is breaking the sit command so use sit instead of heel. Also you could try correcting her, having her watch the mark picked up, and then run it again. At the slightest movement give her a "sit, stick, sit". Do not let her pick up the mark until rock steady.


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## goldlover68

tpd5 said:


> Is this something new or has it been a problem for some time?
> 
> Do you have a heeling stick? If you do its "sit, stick,sit". She is breaking the sit command so use sit instead of heel. Also you could try correcting her, having her watch the mark picked up, and then run it again. At the slightest movement give her a "sit, stick, sit". Do not let her pick up the mark until rock steady.


Thanks, it is something new....although dogs with tons of drive, sooner or later have this issue...so now is the time to get it resolved.

I agree with what you say it is back to some basic obedience I go.... Sit ...stick...sit!

We will progress from their...if she is not rock solid I pick up the mark!

Thanks....


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## Claudia M

Today we had a great training day. Meaning all dogs did wonderful! Belle had her first duck flier cripple. She was awesome with it! I had the camera set up but no one behind it to take pictures. Here is one from friend from the holding blind of Belle! Will upload more as she posts them!


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## krazybronco2

tpd5 said:


> Is this something new or has it been a problem for some time?
> 
> Do you have a heeling stick? If you do its "sit, stick,sit". She is breaking the sit command so use sit instead of heel. Also you could try correcting her, having her watch the mark picked up, and then run it again. At the slightest movement give her a "sit, stick, sit". Do not let her pick up the mark until rock steady.


agree some dogs will take the little bit of a correction if they know they will still get to pick up birds. so this is my suggestion is sit one time if they moves a hard sit let her see the birds and then heel off line and try again if it happens again then resort to the stick as a correction. won't be long before the dog is rock steady because they don't know if they will be getting a bird or not.


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## krazybronco2

went up to train with a friend who had some pigeons for the pup and we ran a huge setup today. the long bird was over 300 yards we though about retiring the mark but most of our dogs are a the Q level and we thought it would be better to leave the gun out as to get the dogs to push that distance plus there were quite a few factors of 2 ditches running at 2 diff angles 2 knobs to run over and then the short gun they had to run past. Belle did pretty good wanted to back side the long gun (she ran at the gun) but the bird boy saw that she had done everything else fine up to that point and helped her out. there was no need for a big correction when you did everything else fine. 

the pup bodey got a couple of short marks in some tall grass first mark he needed help second he almost needed help but noodled it out and the third he pinned. all the marks were maybe 40-50yards for him but we have 10 pigeons to play with for a couple of weeks so he will be seeing birds at least twice a week.


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## Poppy2

you all I have a question my girl in training has been creeping on marks...I give her the heel, burn, heel and she scoots back on heel hen I pause briefly and send her. 

Next time she does the same...I fear I am conditioning her vs. training her...?

She has been real steady for a long while. In her last SH test, on her last honor on the water marks she creeped. First time since JH level I have seen this with her. I gave her a soft heel and she popped right back on heel, the judge did mention it to me, but said since she was solid all day, she passed. 

About three weeks later we ran he for the WCX and on the last test, water honor she broke on the gun fire, I gave he a heel and she heeled. The judges after talking it over said they thought it was a controlled break, and I get 1..so she passed....

I am starting to work with her in prep for MH..and this stuff has to be cleared up. I will call my trainer and get their input....but all thoughts are good![/QUOTE]


Just a thought for you.
I hunt Oct thru Jan. My dog gets loose on me. When test season rolls around and I need to tighten him up, this is what I do.

I grab a holding blind and a winger.
Set up a 30 yd mark from holding blind.
Go thru my heeling to the holding blind(wait 2 min there) and then to the line. He gets no mark until this is solid.

Once at the line, I make a ruckus. I blow the duck call and hit the sound on the reciever.

He moves... back to the holding blind to try again. Wait 2 min. Try again.

Once he is solid again with duck call and beep from reciever... I launch a bird.

He shuffles his feet or hovers his butt.... back to the holding blind he goes,, while I set it up again.

I give it 5 trys.

If he doesn't get it by now, he starts getting a tap on his front legs (for happy feet)with the stick, plus a sit nick. If his butt hovers, its a tap on the ass plus sit,nick. Back to the holding blind he goes. Repeat and rinse until he remembers.

Sometimes it takes two days before he gets that 30yd mark. 

Then I move him closer and closer until I am right next to the winger with no movement from the duck call or beep from the winger.
Takes us about a week to get back in the groove 
before he starts seeing real marks again.

He is now focused and reconditioned thru revisting line manners.

Hope this gives you some ideas on how to correct the creeping with short sessions by yourself.
Happy training!


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## Claudia M

Poppy2 said:


> you all I have a question my girl in training has been creeping on marks...I give her the heel, burn, heel and she scoots back on heel hen I pause briefly and send her.
> 
> Next time she does the same...I fear I am conditioning her vs. training her...?
> 
> She has been real steady for a long while. In her last SH test, on her last honor on the water marks she creeped. First time since JH level I have seen this with her. I gave her a soft heel and she popped right back on heel, the judge did mention it to me, but said since she was solid all day, she passed.
> 
> About three weeks later we ran he for the WCX and on the last test, water honor she broke on the gun fire, I gave he a heel and she heeled. The judges after talking it over said they thought it was a controlled break, and I get 1..so she passed....
> 
> I am starting to work with her in prep for MH..and this stuff has to be cleared up. I will call my trainer and get their input....but all thoughts are good!



*Just a thought for you.
I hunt Oct thru Jan. My dog gets loose on me. When test season rolls around and I need to tighten him up, this is what I do.

I grab a holding blind and a winger.
Set up a 30 yd mark from holding blind.
Go thru my heeling to the holding blind(wait 2 min there) and then to the line. He gets no mark until this is solid.

Once at the line, I make a ruckus. I blow the duck call and hit the sound on the reciever.

He moves... back to the holding blind to try again. Wait 2 min. Try again.

Once he is solid again with duck call and beep from reciever... I launch a bird.

He shuffles his feet or hovers his butt.... back to the holding blind he goes,, while I set it up again.

I give it 5 trys.

If he doesn't get it by now, he starts getting a tap on his front legs (for happy feet)with the stick, plus a sit nick. If his butt hovers, its a tap on the ass plus sit,nick. Back to the holding blind he goes. Repeat and rinse until he remembers.

Sometimes it takes two days before he gets that 30yd mark. 

Then I move him closer and closer until I am right next to the winger with no movement from the duck call or beep from the winger.
Takes us about a week to get back in the groove 
before he starts seeing real marks again.

He is now focused and reconditioned thru revisting line manners.

Hope this gives you some ideas on how to correct the creeping with short sessions by yourself.
Happy training!*[/QUOTE]


YUP - thank you for this. People do not realize the difference between real hunt and hunt tests.


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## Poppy2

Thanks for fixing that Claudia!
Not sure what happened there 
Your a Peach


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## goldlover68

ClaudiaM....thanks that is a good plan and I have the equipment and time to do it! Provided the heat backs off a bit in August...training time has been difficult the last two weeks, only had a couple of good days and they were not consecutive..

I took my girl duck hunting with me last year 4 times, only 4 because after opening day it got warm and the birds were hard to come by. Then in December it all froze up...so the season was a mess. When I hunted with her I did not bring my gun, I just worked her. She was JH not doing blinds very well so I only worked her on marked birds. She did really well and was steady as a rock, of course I was literally laying next to her with lead in hand.

This year she will be full bore on ducks starting with early teal season. So I will condition her as you suggest prior to hunting and also after the season...

I will let you all know how our work goes after a few sessions....

Thanks again,


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## Claudia M

Thanks but those instructions were from Poppy!


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## goldlover68

Right...then thanks to Poppy2!

Good Stuff....that's why I use this forum...lots of smart experienced people on here...


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## Poppy2

goldlover68 said:


> Right...then thanks to Poppy2!
> 
> Good Stuff....that's why I use this forum...lots of smart experienced people on here...


You'll find when doing this drill that the closer you get to the winger (10ft)the harder it is for the dog to sit.
Don't hesitate to help him out a bit here. Running your hands down his front legs and saying sit in his ear while anchoring the front legs with a downward push helps with happy feet.

Keeping your hand planted on his butt while launching the bird helps with hovering.
Once he's doing well again from your loving touch, go back to the stick and collar.

Ps I don't use the sound from the winger when I'm this close. Just blow the duck call and launch the bird.


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## goldlover68

Poppy2 said:


> You'll find when doing this drill that the closer you get to the winger (10ft)the harder it is for the dog to sit.
> Don't hesitate to help him out a bit here. Running your hands down his front legs and saying sit in his ear while anchoring the front legs with a downward push helps with happy feet.
> 
> Keeping your hand planted on his butt while launching the bird helps with hovering.
> Once he's doing well again from your loving touch, go back to the stick and collar.
> 
> Ps I don't use the sound from the winger when I'm this close. Just blow the duck call and launch the bird.


Poppy2 
Thanks....I do have a Bumper Boy double thrower with the duck call included, but for this drill my BB is my wife....she blows the calls and throws pretty well....years of training! 

I will follow up after we work on these for a while....


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## Poppy2

Thats a great place to start but you'll have to up the stakes at some point. You need her on the edge of breaking. She has seen hunt tests now and you need to get as close to that level of excitment as possible. A BB or winger can help with this when at close range.
You need to get her jacked up somehow. 

This drill works for me as written.
No substituting ;-)


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## goldlover68

Poppy2 said:


> Thats a great place to start but you'll have to up the stakes at some point. You need her on the edge of breaking. She has seen hunt tests now and you need to get as close to that level of excitment as possible. A BB or winger can help with this when at close range.
> You need to get her jacked up somehow.
> 
> This drill works for me as written.
> No substituting ;-)


This girl is 'jacked up' at all times! Prior to a hunt test, we take her out and run the heck out of her, the load up in the car and drive to the test. She has more drive than necessary....but when she is on, she is so pretty to watch...style and drive! I get what you say...and thanks!


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