# Abnormally Large Golden Retriever?



## paula bedard (Feb 5, 2008)

29" is very tall. Are you measuring from the shoulder? Neutering at a very young age is said to be a factor in overly large males. My Sam was neutered at 6 months and he grew to be a very tall 27" boy. I don't think there are health concerns associated with size...other than keeping them lean so that their joints aren't over taxed. 

By the way, Welcome. Have a pic you can share?


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## Rainheart (Nov 28, 2010)

It also depends on the parents size. Some of these goldens and labs can be HUGE (much bigger than the breed standard) and may contribute to that.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Are you sure you're measuring correctly? 29" is just under the size of a great dane or a mastiff. At 85 pounds he must be skin and bones if he's as big as those dogs.


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## Willow52 (Aug 14, 2009)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> Are you sure you're measuring correctly? 29" is just under the size of a great dane or a mastiff. At 85 pounds he must be skin and bones if he's as big as those dogs.


That's what I was thinking. Are you measuring at the shoulders?


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## Chantel (Feb 8, 2011)

Yes I measured from the shoulders. I looked up where to measure from before I did it, my vet and numberous people have asked me where I got him and how he got so tall, so that is why I measured him. Charlie was neutered at a little over 7 months old, by vets suggestion. 
I am trying to figure out the picture thing, we'll see if this works 









Charlie with Baya's kittens.


























Charlie with his little brother Jesse.


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## Chantel (Feb 8, 2011)

here is the best picture I could find showing how tall/skinny he is. I am certain that I measured correctly because I even talked to my vet about it. And yes he is fairly skinny, but he eats a lot.


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## Willow52 (Aug 14, 2009)

Yes, he does look tall. I have read that males neutered young grow taller that average due to the growth plates closing later. Better for him to be on the lean side than obese though.

He looks like a friendly, happy guy!


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

He is tall! Oh I just love him 

Keep him very lean, just like he is now, so he doesn't have trouble with his knees. He's beautiful.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

His tail looks really long too, doesn't it?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

He looks very long boned - like an Irish setter. I actually checked up Irish Setters, but then they only get to be 27 inches tall. 

Except for the long lean legs and body, he does look very much like a golden. Very pretty boy. Huge paws with the kitty pic.


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## Chantel (Feb 8, 2011)

Thanks for the compliments  and yes his tail does seem very long compared to most that I've seen. I'm not sure if he got this tall from being neutered young or not? Charlie has always been tall and lanky even from a pup, his little brother Jesse (bred from the same mom and dad) is now 9 months old and seems to be the complete opposite of Charlie, he is short and chubby. I have seen their mom and she is very short compared to Charlie, probably the average height for a female though. I have never seen their dad but he may be tall like Charlie? As long as there isn't any health concerns other than the normal ones, I am happy


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

This is a very typical look of a dog neutered prior to reaching physical maturity.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

My son's Golden looks exactly like that, tall and leggy, really long tail. But he was neutered after he was 2 years old.


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## Chantel (Feb 8, 2011)

mylissyk said:


> My son's Golden looks exactly like that, tall and leggy, really long tail. But he was neutered after he was 2 years old.


See, I was thinking that in this case it doesn't have anything to do with him being neutered young, because he has always been this way. Especially after my mom got Jesse (his biological brother), I noticed from the beginning he wasn't as tall and skinny as Charlie always was.


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

Wow, you can really see how long his legs are in the photos. He is cute, though!  

I'd be fearful of joint and orthopedic issues since structure closely relates to movement. Having such out of standard structure would almost surely lead to joint health problems. How does he get around, OK? Any issues so far?


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## goldenbrowneyes (Nov 10, 2010)

He is very handsome and I love his smile. The pictures with the kitties is great.


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## Chantel (Feb 8, 2011)

CarolinaCasey said:


> Wow, you can really see how long his legs are in the photos. He is cute, though!
> 
> I'd be fearful of joint and orthopedic issues since structure closely relates to movement. Having such out of standard structure would almost surely lead to joint health problems. How does he get around, OK? Any issues so far?


he gets around just fine, runs around and plays with Jesse alot. At home when he is resting, he sits on the couch kind of like a person (sits just his butt on the couch and his back legs hang down) it's cute .. he also stands up On his back two legs and gives people "hugs", he's sometimes as tall as some people! The vet never seemed to be concerned about his height, he only asked me where I got him from and said that he has never seen one so tall. Charlie will be 3 in June.


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## Georgie (Jun 14, 2010)

Charlie is gorgeous! He looks very lean and healthy to me....not to mention happy!

what a sweetie....more golden to love!


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## missmarstar (Jul 22, 2007)

The best advice is to keep him lean. Having that extra weight associated with his height will be harder on his joints, so definitely don't add to that by letting him carry around extra weight due to being overweight too. He's such a cutie


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## momtoMax (Apr 21, 2009)

This guy has really long legs - like a giraffe. Other than the legs, my Max is the same size body/head wise - he's somewhere between 80-85 too. I think the only thing a bit off with your boy is his leggyness but nothing to worry too much about - it just makes him more unique and easier to identify if he ever goes lost.


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## Noey (Feb 26, 2009)

some nice sticks on that pup. 

My Noah is tall, when Scout and him are side by side I always get asked why is Noah so tall. Noahs dad was big, but Noah is much bigger I think, But his Legs are proportional - Your guy will fill out. I like the tall lean look he has.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Chantel said:


> See, I was thinking that in this case it doesn't have anything to do with him being neutered young, because he has always been this way. Especially after my mom got Jesse (his biological brother), I noticed from the beginning he wasn't as tall and skinny as Charlie always was.


This is Ross, my son's dog.


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## Chantel (Feb 8, 2011)

mylissyk said:


> This is Ross, my son's dog.


He does remind me alot of Charlie! Has your son ever measured him? I think he may still be shorter than mine but he definitely looks taller than the average. Very cute


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Chantel said:


> He does remind me alot of Charlie! Has your son ever measured him? I think he may still be shorter than mine but he definitely looks taller than the average. Very cute


I'll ask him to measure Ross. I'm 5'3, and Ross's shoulders reach my hip. He's a big boy.


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## jimla (Oct 9, 2008)

*Tall boys*



Chantel said:


> here is the best picture I could find showing how tall/skinny he is. I am certain that I measured correctly because I even talked to my vet about it. And yes he is fairly skinny, but he eats a lot.


Your tall boy Charlie looks gorgeous! I love the pictures with your kitties. Our Elliot is a tall boy too! He is 5 years old, 27 inches tall, and 85 lbs. We adopted him at 9 months from the local humane society. He was listed as a "pure bred" golden and I have often wondered what his parents looked like. His health and movements are fine and we will keep him lean to ease the stress on his joints. He did great in agility classes. We love our tall boy!


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Though it is becoming a belief on GRF that neutered dogs get visibly taller, actual measurements of the bones of dogs neutered before 6 months as opposed to later don't show a dramatic increase in length. It's more like a few millimeters on the longest bones. Not an increase of inches or something you'd be able to easily see.

You might see more "legginess" or a lighter build in a male dog neutered younger because he may not build as much muscle mass as a dog who has more testosterone in his system for longer. So you might see differences in the head, the depth of the chest, the tuck-up, and the overall look and feel of the dog, but there's really no evidence that it causes a significant increase in height. It's not like if you neutered half of a litter at 6 months and left half intact that the neutered boys would be 1 or 2 inches taller at the shoulder. 

However, when you crossbreed dogs, you can potentially reactivate just about anything on the genome. Most commonly, you end up with characteristics from the two breeds you crossed, but you can get all kinds of other stuff too. So it's not surprising that a dog might end up significantly taller (or shorter, or differently coated, etc.) than either breed that went into his makeup.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

tippykayak said:


> Though it is becoming a belief on GRF that neutered dogs get visibly taller, actual measurements of the bones of dogs neutered before 6 months as opposed to later don't show a dramatic increase in length. It's more like a few millimeters on the longest bones. Not an increase of inches or something you'd be able to easily see.
> 
> You might see more "legginess" or a lighter build in a male dog neutered younger because he may not build as much muscle mass as a dog who has more testosterone in his system for longer. So you might see differences in the head, the depth of the chest, the tuck-up, and the overall look and feel of the dog, but there's really no evidence that it causes a significant increase in height. It's not like if you neutered half of a litter at 6 months and left half intact that the neutered boys would be 1 or 2 inches taller at the shoulder.



Brian can you provide meat some links to the studies that substantiate the above? I would be very interested to read it.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Here we go again...


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

My coworker has a golden doodle who is a lot taller than the average golden - not sure of the measurements. The parents were a mini poodle and a small golden. I think the largest of the two is 50 lbs, his dog is just a year and is 80 lbs and lean.

The vet said there is something called hybrid vigor??? You never know what size these dogs will be, and often times are bigger than the parents. Probably a lot of the same thing that tippykayak was talking about.


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

cubbysan said:


> My coworker has a golden doodle who is a lot taller than the average golden - not sure of the measurements. The parents were a mini poodle and a small golden. I think the largest of the two is 50 lbs, his dog is just a year and is 80 lbs and lean.
> 
> The vet said there is something called hybrid vigor??? You never know what size these dogs will be, and often times are bigger than the parents. Probably a lot of the same thing that tippykayak was talking about.


Doodles are almost always taller than pure goldens.


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## ILoveMyGolden (Oct 19, 2006)

My family (I've moved out!) has an abnormally large Golden. He is 29.5" at the shoulders and full Golden. His heaviest has been 113, after bloat surgery he lost a ton of weight and was mid-90's and now maintains weight at about 90lbs, give or take. He's at the vet every month for something -between my Mom's rabbit and him, they might as well have key's to the office. He grossly outsized both parents, BYB golden.

We probably over did it with him too young -gosh the regret I have looking back on the early years with him. Too long of walks, too much activity because we took him everywhere, he was a do-everything-with-us dog.

He's had two TPLO surgeries, and a whackload of other issues, HD, but mostly arthritic problems.

Bailey was fixed at 5 months (oh how I cringe saying that) He was born Jan 2nd, 2003 and was fixed early in June (I don't remember the exact date). Our thought is the vet's office screwed up thinking 6th month of the year, he's due to be fixed "at 6 months old", where really he had just turned 5 months old. I was in my teens at the time and my parents were 1st time dog owners and just did what was told of us by the vet (we've changed vets since then....btw )

The biggest thing is the weight, have to keep it under control or Bailey really feels it now. He is the next best thing to a cripple in the hind end and even the surgeries haven't proven to be a long term fix. He is now on Cosequin joint supplement and after trying many supplements we notice a huge different with this one -I knew of the supplement with it's use in the horse world and so asked Mom to ask the vet if the dog friendly version might be a good fit for Bails and what a difference.

Talk with your vet, and if anything try not to over-do it with him if he's still young to get as many good years from him if you can


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## Chantel (Feb 8, 2011)

jimla said:


> Your tall boy Charlie looks gorgeous! I love the pictures with your kitties. Our Elliot is a tall boy too! He is 5 years old, 27 inches tall, and 85 lbs. We adopted him at 9 months from the local humane society. He was listed as a "pure bred" golden and I have often wondered what his parents looked like. His health and movements are fine and we will keep him lean to ease the stress on his joints. He did great in agility classes. We love our tall boy!
> 
> View attachment 92346


thank you! Elliot is beautiful as well  I'm glad to hear that his joints and health is good, since he is a few years older than Charlie. 

I'm glad I posted on here, I googled some things about it before but never got replies like I did here. I believe that Charlie is just naturally tall, because he always has been. As far as the neutering thing, I don't know much about it.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

cubbysan said:


> My coworker has a golden doodle who is a lot taller than the average golden - not sure of the measurements. The parents were a mini poodle and a small golden. I think the largest of the two is 50 lbs, his dog is just a year and is 80 lbs and lean.
> 
> The vet said there is something called hybrid vigor??? You never know what size these dogs will be, and often times are bigger than the parents. Probably a lot of the same thing that tippykayak was talking about.


 
No such thing as hybrid vigor in dogs.
And I firmly believe that early altering (prior to physical maturity) absolutely does case a dog to be "weedier", leggier, more slab-sided, and possessing of a narrow head. I've seen it for years.
But, hey, whaddo I know.


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## Chantel (Feb 8, 2011)

Pointgold said:


> Here we go again...


? Not sure what this means, but if you don't want to hear about the subject, don't read the thread.


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## Chantel (Feb 8, 2011)

Pointgold said:


> No such thing as hybrid vigor in dogs.
> And I firmly believe that early altering (prior to physical maturity) absolutely does case a dog to be "weedier", leggier, more slab-sided, and possessing of a narrow head. I've seen it for years.
> But, hey, whaddo I know.


what do you mean by "slab-sided" ? Just curious


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## NuttinButGoldens (Jan 10, 2009)

Milo's first family neutered him at 6 months, and he's a good 5" taller than Gilmour.

Gilmour can walk under him LOL



paula bedard said:


> 29" is very tall. Are you measuring from the shoulder? Neutering at a very young age is said to be a factor in overly large males. My Sam was neutered at 6 months and he grew to be a very tall 27" boy. I don't think there are health concerns associated with size...other than keeping them lean so that their joints aren't over taxed.
> 
> By the way, Welcome. Have a pic you can share?


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## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> No such thing as hybrid vigor in dogs.
> And I firmly believe that early altering (prior to physical maturity) absolutely does case a dog to be "weedier", leggier, more slab-sided, and possessing of a narrow head. I've seen it for years.
> But, hey, whaddo I know.


I agree with you 100% on this issue. Males should look like males and in all honesty I can pick out the ones that are neutered prior to maturity. They are lanky.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Chantel said:


> ? Not sure what this means, but if you don't want to hear about the subject, don't read the thread.


Why, thanks!


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## Chantel (Feb 8, 2011)

Braccarius said:


> I agree with you 100% on this issue. Males should look like males and in all honesty I can pick out the ones that are neutered prior to maturity. They are lanky.


Female Golden Retrievers aren't even "lanky". I know so many people who got their Golden neutered around 7 months just like my dog and their dog looks nothing like Charlie. I have never met another person who had a dog as tall as mine, even when he was a puppy he was so different than ones that I have seen. And I never knew about this whole subject before, I only got him neutered at that age by vets suggestion ( I was 16 when I got him, I'm only soon to be 19 now), had I known I probably would have waited just in case, but I honestly feel like his tallness--is just him.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

AmbikaGR said:


> Brian can you provide meat some links to the studies that substantiate the above? I would be very interested to read it.


I think rather, that the onus would be on the research to prove that neutered dogs _do_ grow a significant amount. If there's no evidence either way, we shouldn't assume that it happens. In all the debates that we've had on the subject, I don't recall a single source being posted that claimed that long bone growth was more than a few millimeters.

Do people really think that neutering a dog makes it grow an inch taller than he would if he were left intact?

However, even though I don't think the onus is on me to prove that neutered dogs don't grow dramatically larger, I based my comment on the following article:
Determining the optimal age for gonadectomy of dogs and cats

The relevant passage:



> Timing of closure of the physes of long bones is controlled in part by gonadal hormones. In both dogs and cats, gonadectomy at any age prior to physeal closure delays that closure and is associated with statistically significant, although not readily visible or clinically relevant, lengthening of associated long bones.


I believe they're basing that claim on this direct research, though five other sources are also footnoted in that passage:

Gondectomy in immature dogs

As far as my comment that there is potentially a visible difference in muscle mass, that's simply based on inference and personal experience, not research.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

http://www.weebly.com/uploads/2/0/2...her_and_when_to_neuter_a_golden_retreiver.pdf

Never "scientific" enough for some, but Rhonda Hovan is highly respected, not only in the Golden Retriever breeder/exhibitor community, but among veterinarians and researchers as well. 

But hey, whadduz she know?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Chantel said:


> what do you mean by "slab-sided" ? Just curious


I think it means lanky or narrow. 

I think possibly neutering too early affects some dogs (but not all of them) this way. Nobody's doing a gene study on these dogs to sort out why this happens or if early neutering is even responsible. Knowing that testosterome regulates growth of the bones, it certainly is possible. 

And I think some dogs mature earlier than others, that's why you might not notice much difference in the height and bone structure of some early neutered dogs. And I think there are dogs out there who most definitely have different types of coats than they might otherwise have had. 

As far as early neutering... I kinda think it is a personal decision. If you are unable to keep your dog trained, on leash, and under close watch until he's neutered, I think it's safer to just have him neutered. 

I had somebody (a breeder) tell me that early neutering might cause a lot of the problems in the breed today, including thryoid disease and later on hemangiosarcoma. Something that made me feel somewhat uncomfortable since I had two intact goldens (ok, the one was neutered at 10) die of that cancer. <- Those things I tend to feel may be attributed to genetic predisposition, diet, and environment.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Chantel said:


> Female Golden Retrievers aren't even "lanky". I know so many people who got their Golden neutered around 7 months just like my dog and their dog looks nothing like Charlie. I have never met another person who had a dog as tall as mine, even when he was a puppy he was so different than ones that I have seen. And I never knew about this whole subject before, I only got him neutered at that age by vets suggestion ( I was 16 when I got him, I'm only soon to be 19 now), had I known I probably would have waited just in case, but I honestly feel like his tallness--is just him.



I believe that it may be a combination of factors that are the reason your dog is this tall. 
First and most definitely is genetics. And I believe that your dog would have ended up taller than the average Golden no matter when he was neutered. 
Second and speculatively would be his early neuter also contributing to his excessive height.
As others have stated keeping his weight in check would be paramount to his quality of life being a long one. You may want to discuss with your vet also some supplements to help with this. 
I am afraid your thread is going in two directions and I may be part of that reason, so I will apologize. 
MANY, MANY vets subscribe to the early neuter/spay theory and there are some that do not believe that is always in the best interest of the dog. There is disagreement in the veterinarian world over it.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

cubbysan said:


> My coworker has a golden doodle who is a lot taller than the average golden - not sure of the measurements. The parents were a mini poodle and a small golden. I think the largest of the two is 50 lbs, his dog is just a year and is 80 lbs and lean.
> 
> The vet said there is something called hybrid vigor??? You never know what size these dogs will be, and often times are bigger than the parents. Probably a lot of the same thing that tippykayak was talking about.


Hybrid vigor is a highly misunderstood term. It makes it sound like hybrids are healthier. However, the term actually refers to one of many things that can happen when you hybridize (mix different species or subspecies).

When you outbreed (hybridize), you get a wider range of results. The wider the gene pool, the more variation you see in the offspring. If some of those offspring are better suited to their environment, it's called hybrid vigor. It's even more likely that some offspring are _less_ suited to their environment, and when that happens, it's called outbreeding depression.

So a hybrid is not automatically going to be "vigorous." A few of the offspring _may_ have hybrid vigor, but just as many or more are going to be _less_ healthy.

You may see hybrid vigor in a crossbred dog, but the reason that you don't cross breeds is that in that matchup you lose all the predictability of a purebred dog. When you breed for health within the breed, you can predict the health of the litter with relative accuracy, and you can select the most ideal offspring from that litter for the next generation. 

It's also important to distinguish between true hybrids (inter-species crosses like mules) and the use of the term hybrid to describe the mixing of two strains within the same species. The term is accurately used to describe both, but genetically, those are two _very_ different situations.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

tippykayak said:


> I believe they're basing that claim on this direct research, though five other sources are also footnoted in that passage:
> 
> Gondectomy in immature dogs



The following is quoted directly from the above passage you linked.

" Growth plate closure was delayed (group I vs group III; P less than 0.000001; group II vs group III, P less than 0.000001) in all neutered dogs, as compared with sexually intact dogs. Growth plate closure was delayed longer (group I vs group II, P less than 0.000045) in dogs neutered at 7 weeks old, compared with dogs neutered at 7 months old.  The rate of growth was unaffected by gonadectomy, but the extended growth period resulted in greater final radial/ulnar length in all male dogs and bitches neutered at 7 weeks."

To me that says that early spay/neuter does affect a dog's final height.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I still have never seen a direct piece of research posted on GRF that indicates long bones grow more than a few extra millimeters in dogs neutered before 6 months vs. dogs not neutered. I hear the _claim_ that the change is dramatic, but never any actual direct research that substantiates the claim.

The difference in muscle mass and distribution is one of the things that makes it relatively easy to tell an intact female GR from an intact male, so I have no difficulty believing that neutering can sometimes or even often change the look of a dog enough that you could tell, particularly if that dog were side by side with littermates. But increasing the height substantially? There's just no direct evidence I've ever seen, and I have literally read _every_ article and study posted in the neutering age debates in which I've participated on GRF.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

tippykayak said:


> Hybrid vigor is a highly misunderstood term. It makes it sound like hybrids are healthier. However, the term actually refers to one of many things that can happen when you hybridize (mix different species or subspecies).
> 
> When you outbreed (hybridize), you get a wider range of results. The wider the gene pool, the more variation you see in the offspring. If some of those offspring are better suited to their environment, it's called hybrid vigor. It's even more likely that some offspring are _less_ suited to their environment, and when that happens, it's called outbreeding depression.
> 
> ...


I would also point out the study you cited was comprised of 32 mixed breed dogs.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

AmbikaGR said:


> The following is quoted directly from the above passage you linked.
> 
> " Growth plate closure was delayed (group I vs group III; P less than 0.000001; group II vs group III, P less than 0.000001) in all neutered dogs, as compared with sexually intact dogs. Growth plate closure was delayed longer (group I vs group II, P less than 0.000045) in dogs neutered at 7 weeks old, compared with dogs neutered at 7 months old.  The rate of growth was unaffected by gonadectomy, but the extended growth period resulted in greater final radial/ulnar length in all male dogs and bitches neutered at 7 weeks."
> 
> To me that says that early spay/neuter does affect a dog's final height.


Yes, but the article is equally clear in stating that the amount of growth would be nearly impossible to detect visually. The long bones do grow more; that much is clear. The question is how much and if it significantly affects the height of the dog. A few millimeters on each of the long bones couldn't add even 1/4" to the height of a dog.

And yet, frequently when people post pictures or stories of dogs far out of standard, neutering is brought up, rather than the much more likely scenario that the dog was actually bred out of standard or, as in this case, crossbred.

My Gus was neutered at 6 months and barely grazed the bottom of the height standard for males. One of his brothers is intact at 8 and is slightly taller. His other brother was neutered at 6 months and is within standard too. My personal experience confirms what seems to be very clear in the direct literature.

So it's really hard for me to believe that the extra height on a 29" dog was significantly due to neutering rather than to outbreeding.


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## Chantel (Feb 8, 2011)

-Charlie & his brother Jesse <-not neutered), curious as to how Charlie looks any less like a male dog?, seeing as they look almost exactly alike, besides Charlie being much taller. Jesse may not be grown yet though.








-Their mother (1/2 pure golden 1/2 pure yellow lab)

Charlie is happy and healthy and that's all that I ask for, as far as the speculations, to each their own. I love him just the way he is.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

tippykayak said:


> I still have never seen a direct piece of research posted on GRF that indicates long bones grow more than a few extra millimeters in dogs neutered before 6 months vs. dogs not neutered. I hear the _claim_ that the change is dramatic, but never any actual direct research that substantiates the claim.



Your own referenced research does exactly that, no?
Also the research paper released by Dr. Larry Katz, linked below, had a similar finding. It also was released in 2007. (Page 8 under Orthopedic Disorders)

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/longtermhealtheffectsofspayneuterindogs.pdf


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

AmbikaGR said:


> I would also point out the study you cited was comprised of 32 mixed breed dogs.


Well, I quoted an article that cited 183 studies and articles, and six were cited for the claim it makes about the extra long bone growth not being visible or clinically significant. I just went and pulled one of the six.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

AmbikaGR said:


> Your own referenced research does exactly that, no?
> Also the research paper released by Dr. Larry Katz, linked below, had a similar finding. It also was released in 2007. (Page 8 under Orthopedic Disorders)
> 
> http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/longtermhealtheffectsofspayneuterindogs.pdf


Where does what I quoted say that long bones grow more than a few millimeters? The main change discussed in that article is between dogs neutered at 7 weeks vs. 7 months. It doesn't say that 7 weeks vs. 7 months leads to more than a few millimeters of long bone growth, and it certainly doesn't say that 7 months vs. intact has such large effects.


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## Chantel (Feb 8, 2011)

AmbikaGR said:


> The following is quoted directly from the above passage you linked.
> 
> " Growth plate closure was delayed (group I vs group III; P less than 0.000001; group II vs group III, P less than 0.000001) in all neutered dogs, as compared with sexually intact dogs. Growth plate closure was delayed longer (group I vs group II, P less than 0.000045) in dogs neutered at 7 weeks old, compared with dogs neutered at 7 months old. The rate of growth was unaffected by gonadectomy, but the extended growth period resulted in greater final radial/ulnar length in all male dogs and bitches neutered at 7 weeks."
> 
> To me that says that early spay/neuter does affect a dog's final height.


 

Charlie was neutered at over 7 months old, no where near 7 weeks. I can see that it may make a difference that young, but in this case he was neutered at the later age stated.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

My Ch Nitelite's High Top Tennies, CD was obviously left intact. He had a littermate who was virtually indistinguishable from Mikey as puppies. The other dog was sold as a pet, and latered at 6 mos old. I saw him again a couple of years later, and they didn't look at all like littermates. The other dog was taller, leggier, laced depth and breadth of chest, and had a longer, narrower head. And this was a line breeding, so consitency of appearance was not an issue - it was, as we say, a "cookie cutter litter."

Wonder what happened. :scratchch


*I used to advocate altering at 6 months old, as did most concientious breeders. Now, I ask those who buy a dog as a pet to wait until 18 months minimum, and preferably 24. Males are not physically mature until at least then.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

tippykayak said:


> Where does what I quoted say that long bones grow more than a few millimeters?



See below.


AmbikaGR said:


> " but the extended growth period resulted in greater final radial/ulnar length in all male dogs and bitches neutered at 7 weeks."



That is how I would interpret it.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

AmbikaGR said:


> Your own referenced research does exactly that, no?
> Also the research paper released by Dr. Larry Katz, linked below, had a similar finding. It also was released in 2007. (Page 8 under Orthopedic Disorders)
> 
> http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/longtermhealtheffectsofspayneuterindogs.pdf


His article is actually basing claims on the same small subset of original research that we're kicking back and forth. He claims that the bones grow an _significant_ amount, but that term, as it's used in the research he cites (that same study of the 32 mixed breed dogs), means statistically significant, not necessarily visually. There's a really big difference.

Also, that study discusses the difference in bone growth between dogs neutered at 7 weeks vs. 7 months. That's where the big changes in long bone growth were scene, not between the 7 month and intact cohorts.

So in this conversation, we really have essentially no direct data on long bone growth differences between dogs neutered at 6 months and dogs left intact, which is what we're really interested in as pet owners.


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## Chantel (Feb 8, 2011)

Pointgold said:


> My Ch Nitelite's High Top Tennies, CD was obviously left intact. He had a littermate who was virtually indistinguishable from Mikey as puppies. The other dog was sold as a pet, and latered at 6 mos old. I saw him again a couple of years later, and they didn't look at all like littermates. The other dog was taller, leggier, laced depth and breadth of chest, and had a longer, narrower head. And this was a line breeding, so consitency of appearance was not an issue - it was, as we say, a "cookie cutter litter."
> 
> Wonder what happened. :scratchch
> 
> ...


 
So this is is your "experience" on the subject? I agree, what do you know? lol. Not every single dog out of a litter is going to look alike, not possible.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Chantel said:


> Charlie was neutered at over 7 months old, no where near 7 weeks. I can see that it may make a difference that young, but in this case he was neutered at the later age stated.


Right - most of the "early" age research talks about dogs neutered at 2 months or so, not dogs neutered at the traditional "pet" age of 6 months. There's really no scientific evidence I've been able to find for the claims about height difference.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

AmbikaGR said:


> See below.
> 
> 
> 
> That is how I would interpret it.


But it doesn't state a measurement. It's a statistically significant amount, at least between dogs neutered at 7 weeks vs. 7 months, but it doesn't say a length at all.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Chantel said:


> So this is is your "experience" on the subject? I agree, what do you know? lol. Not every single dog out of a litter is going to look alike, not possible.


No. It was one example. You have no idea what my experinece is. As I said, it was a line breeding, and fairly close. Phenotypically and genotypically. The unaltered dogs, both male and female, in that litter were very consistent in appearance. 
My experience comes from well over 30 years being seriously "in dogs".


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## Chantel (Feb 8, 2011)

Pointgold said:


> No. It was one example. You have no idea what my experinece is. As I said, it was a line breeding, and fairly close. Phenotypically and genotypically. The unaltered dogs, both male and female, in that litter were very consistent in appearance.
> My experience comes from well over 30 years being seriously "in dogs".


 
Okay, I just didn't appreciate your arrogance when it came to this thread to begin with. It's one thing to want to educate people if you truly believe you are correct, it's another thing to be a smarta** like you were in your previous posts. Just saying. And it seems that this will be an ongoing argument. But my personal opinion and research is that I agree with tippykayak.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

tippykayak said:


> Right - most of the "early" age research talks about dogs neutered at 2 months or so, not dogs neutered at the traditional "pet" age of 6 months. There's really no scientific evidence I've been able to find for the claims about height difference.



Well just as Dr. Katz and Dr. Kustritz appear to disagree on the interpretation of the same research, I guess I will disagree with yours.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

AmbikaGR said:


> Well just as Dr. Katz and Dr. Kustritz appear to disagree on the interpretation of the same research, I guess I will disagree with yours.


I don't think the research is conclusive either way on whether the changes would regularly be visible. Nowhere does anybody really quantify the change in height, so we're left with our personal experience. I don't think either of us is "wrong," but I tend to think that in the absence of proof that dogs grow a visually significant amount, I'm not inclined to assume that they do.

And in this situation, which is the reason I brought the whole thing up, I really think that the fact that this dog is a mix accounts for his variation from standard much more than his age at neutering.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Chantel said:


> Okay, I just didn't appreciate your arrogance when it came to this thread to begin with. It's one thing to want to educate people if you truly believe you are correct, it's another thing to be a smarta** like you were in your previous posts. Just saying. And it seems that this will be an ongoing argument. But my personal opinion and research is that I agree with tippykayak.


 
That's very nice.


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## Chantel (Feb 8, 2011)

Pointgold said:


> That's very nice.


 
Not trying to be mean, and no hard feelings, but you and I both know it's true. lol


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Chantel said:


> Okay, I just didn't appreciate your arrogance when it came to this thread to begin with. It's one thing to want to educate people if you truly believe you are correct, it's another thing to be a smarta** like you were in your previous posts. Just saying. And it seems that this will be an ongoing argument. But my personal opinion and research is that I agree with tippykayak.


Perhaps you should not make such snap judgements. PG actually knows a TON. She is a very respected breeder with years and years of experience. And is a long time GRF member who has time upon time been of great help to many. I find your name calling in very poor taste.


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## goldensrbest (Dec 20, 2007)

You have very good looking boy.


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## Chantel (Feb 8, 2011)

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> Perhaps you should not make such snap judgements. PG actually knows a TON. She is a very respected breeder with years and years of experience. And is a long time GRF member who has time upon time been of great help to many. I find your name calling in very poor taste.


I apologize if I offended anyone, but she was rude. I only called it like I saw it, I would have respected her experience and opinion a lot more if she approached the subject in a better manner. Not by saying "here we go again......" on my thread. Or by saying "but what do I know" "what does she know" (only in slang terms) at the end of 3 different posts.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Chantel said:


> I apologize if I offended anyone, but she was rude. I only called it like I saw it, I would have respected her experience and opinion a lot more if she approached the subject in a better manner. Not by saying "here we go again......" on my thread. Or by saying "but what do I know" "what does she know" (only in slang terms) at the end of 3 different posts.


This subject has been discussed and debated multiple times recently. I don't think any of those statements were directed at you. You should probably cool your jets a bit before reacting when you're new to a message board. And, for the record, name calling is rude (and possibly also a violation of the TOS?).


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## inge (Sep 20, 2009)

Chantel said:


> I apologize if I offended anyone, but she was rude. I only called it like I saw it, I would have respected her experience and opinion a lot more if she approached the subject in a better manner. Not by saying "here we go again......" on my thread. Or by saying "but what do I know" "what does she know" (only in slang terms) at the end of 3 different posts.


Not that PG needs help defending herself, but the matter of 'the influence of neutering' is a topic that has crossed the board more than once and is something that people feel strong about. So I think PG isn't the only one thinking "here we go again'...


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## Chantel (Feb 8, 2011)

inge said:


> Not that PG needs help defending herself, but the matter of 'the influence of neutering' is a topic that has crossed the board more than once and is something that people feel strong about. So I think PG isn't the only one thinking "here we go again'...


Why post on my thread if you don't want to discuss the subject of it? I am a new member (literally just joined yesterday), so I wasn't aware of any previous discussions. It says "new member" right under my name.. so why be rude? If anything she could have told me to look it up on previous forums. And while many people may be thinking it, only some are rude enough to post it.


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## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

I challenge you all to a duel! Post 10 pictures of dogs neutered before 7 months and 10 pictures of dogs neutered after.... I bet you I can go 20 for 20 on them.


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## inge (Sep 20, 2009)

Chantel said:


> Why post on my thread if you don't want to discuss the subject of it? I am a new member (literally just joined yesterday), so I wasn't aware of any previous discussions. It says "new member" right under my name.. so why be rude? If anything she could have told me to look it up on previous forums. And while many people may be thinking it, only some are rude enough to post it.


Sure, but like Goldenjackpuppy said, I don't think those comments were directed at you personally, I really do! But why don't we stop this discussion and go back to your boy !


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## Chantel (Feb 8, 2011)

Anyways, I am in no way trying to fight with anyone. Not interested in getting hardcore with the keyboard, I'm not even the one who brought up the neutering thing to begin with, but when a person insults my dog by saying he doesn't look male, along with being rude to me, I'm not going to respect them very much.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

It's tough being the new kid on the block 

I personally don't mind if these discussions come back up from time to time. Just because it's been discussed already doesn't mean it's been discussed fully, or that we can't learn something new, or that new members won't benefit from bringing the topic back up again.

I just want to say welcome to our new member, Chantel. Your boy is beautiful, I hope we get to see more of him.


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## Chantel (Feb 8, 2011)

Jo Ellen said:


> It's tough being the new kid on the block
> 
> I personally don't mind if these discussions come back up from time to time. Just because it's been discussed already doesn't mean it's been discussed fully, or that we can't learn something new, or that new members won't benefit from bringing the topic back up again.
> 
> I just want to say welcome to our new member, Chantel. Your boy is beautiful, I hope we get to see more of him.


Thank you very much Jo Ellen


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Since there isn't a lot of consensus in the veterinary community on the issue, it's going to keep coming up. It gets mentioned all the time like it's a fact, but it simply isn't a settled thing. I found my back and forth with Hank very helpful this time around, so I don't really have a problem with the concept getting revisited.

I don't think anybody needs to feel like they're not allowed to talk about a given topic, just because it's been a point of contention before.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

LOL, I'm looking at the last picture in your signature -- Charlie appears to dwarf the two of you. Made me laugh :bowl:


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Braccarius said:


> I challenge you all to a duel! Post 10 pictures of dogs neutered before 7 months and 10 pictures of dogs neutered after.... I bet you I can go 20 for 20 on them.


I think it would be really neat to post pictures of dogs and test this theory. We could all guess if the dog was neutered at 6 months or was intact, and then the poster could tell us who was right.

However, even if you could tell the difference, that wouldn't settle the issue of whether or not neutering makes dogs significantly taller. Nobody has argued that it doesn't make _some_ physical changes.


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## FinnTastic (Apr 20, 2009)

wow, I just measured Finn and he was 21 inches tall. Did I measure correctly, b/c he seems tall to me.

Edit: I just found a picture of where I'm suppose to measure and he is more like 23 1/2 inches


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## Karen519 (Aug 21, 2006)

*Gorgeous*

Your Boy is just gorgeous!!

I think my dog Tucker is tall and he is 23".


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## FinnTastic (Apr 20, 2009)

yeah, I think Finn is REALLY tall. He has that whole leggy slim and narrow head thing going for him. Of course, he was neutered early. That was the vet nagging us about it.


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## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

tippykayak said:


> I think it would be really neat to post pictures of dogs and test this theory. We could all guess if the dog was neutered at 6 months or was intact, and then the poster could tell us who was right.
> 
> However, even if you could tell the difference, that wouldn't settle the issue of whether or not neutering makes dogs significantly taller. Nobody has argued that it doesn't make _some_ physical changes.


Actually I'll see if I can compile some for you guys. This could be really fun . In the spirit of science! I'll make a post later tonight!


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> Here we go again...





AmbikaGR said:


> ...I am afraid your thread is going in two directions and I may be part of that reason, so I will apologize. ...





Chantel said:


> Anyways, I am in no way trying to fight with anyone. Not interested in getting hardcore with the keyboard, I'm not even the one who brought up the neutering thing to begin with, but when a person insults my dog by saying he doesn't look male, along with being rude to me, I'm not going to respect them very much.



I believe that the first post quoted above was directed in Brian and my direction.
Which was why I posted the apology that the thread was going in two directions.
I truly do not believe Laura, Pointgold, was referencing your boy in any of her posts but replying to Brian and my posts. Laura is a very passionate, outspoken and knowledgeable member of the Golden community in general and GRF in particular. But I have never known her to belittle anyone's dog at any time. Over time I believe you too will understand that. 
Again sorry for the side thread as it did and did not pertain to your original thread. The "But what do I know" tag line is one of her favorites and easy to misinterpret.


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## Chantel (Feb 8, 2011)

Jo Ellen said:


> LOL, I'm looking at the last picture in your signature -- Charlie appears to dwarf the two of you. Made me laugh :bowl:


Haha, yes he is huge. here is a picture of him very excited & "hugging'' my sister


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Chantel said:


> Anyways, I am in no way trying to fight with anyone. Not interested in getting hardcore with the keyboard, I'm not even the one who brought up the neutering thing to begin with, but when a person insults my dog by saying he doesn't look male, along with being rude to me, I'm not going to respect them very much.


 
The only post that I "directed" to you from the start was that this is a typical look for a dog neutered early. 

Saying "Here we go again" wasn't directed to you. Either were the "what do I knows", which come from several years on this forum, and plenty of "back stories". Take it as you will. 

I'm not finding where anyone "insulted" your dog, in fact, pretty nearly everyone has said things like "he's gorgeous."

It is simply a fact that dogs altered early lack the masculine characteristics at maturity that intact males would have. It is to be expected when testosterone production is eliminated. That's really not an insult, and whether you respect me or not for what is a fact, (and also for a comment not even made by me) is your perogative. 

Cheers!


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Chantel said:


> Haha, yes he is huge. here is a picture of him very excited & "hugging'' my sister



Wow!
Have to be honest here. When I first read 29 inches I said to myself "There is no way she knows where to measure her dog. " And even after the first group of pictures I still though "Okay he is leggy, but 29"? Come on." Then was the photo of him with you and well not sure (husband, boyfriend, brother?) and said well even if not 29" he IS a big boy. Now the one of him on his hind legs I winder if he could not be even taller - unless you are about 4 foot tall yourself.


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## Chantel (Feb 8, 2011)

AmbikaGR said:


> Wow!
> Have to be honest here. When I first read 29 inches I said to myself "There is no way she knows where to measure her dog. " And even after the first group of pictures I still though "Okay he is leggy, but 29"? Come on." Then was the photo of him with you and well not sure (husband, boyfriend, brother?) and said well even if not 29" he IS a big boy. Now the one of him on his hind legs I winder if he could not be even taller - unless you are about 4 foot tall yourself.


Lol yes I am certain that I measured correctly, and unless he has grown within the last 2 months, he is still 29''  .. my sister is 5'6. And yes that is me and my boyfriend- our Christmas picture with Charlie & our rabbit


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

mylissyk said:


> This is Ross, my son's dog.


Attached Thumbnails


My son measured Ross this evening, he is 29" tall at the shoulder.


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## Chantel (Feb 8, 2011)

mylissyk said:


> Attached Thumbnails
> 
> 
> My son measured Ross this evening, he is 29" tall at the shoulder.


That's awesome! he's just as tall as Charlie. And you said he was neutered after 2 years old right?


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Yes, he was turned over the rescue when he was two, and neutered shortly after. My son fostered and then adopted him. We love him to death, he is an awesome dog. Probably not a good thing, but we like them big! 

Back in the 80's or so people in Texas were breeding giant Goldens on purpose, sometimes they still crop up here.

(PG's comments were not directed at you, I promise.)


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## paula bedard (Feb 5, 2008)

I had a bunni that looked exactly like your little guy. I didn't even notice you were holding him until I read through the thread a 2nd time. Are your dogs friends with the bunny? My Sam got along quite well with my bunny, they were buds and hung out together in the yard.

As for a male's height and neutering, both of my boys were neutured at 6 months of age. Sam grew to be huge...and he was the runt of his litter, so his size surprised me very much. My Ike was the largest puppy in his litter and he's 25" tall, maybe a tad under, so within the male standard. Sam was very thin faced, narrow chested, and had a long body and tail. Ike is in my signature pic. He's not as thin or narrow as Sam was, but he doesn't have the typical male head either. He's a bit feminine looking.

I didn't know about the neuter early vs reaching maturity before neutering debate. Had I known it could be a factor in male development, I'd have waited to neuter both of my boys. I don't know if they were thinking along these lines in 1994 when I got Sam, but they were in 2007 when I got Ike, and I wish my Breeder had mentioned it to me.

Also, Sam's parents were both within the breed standard and all but one of the puppies, male and female, were very tall dogs.


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## Chantel (Feb 8, 2011)

paula bedard said:


> I had a bunni that looked exactly like your little guy. I didn't even notice you were holding him until I read through the thread a 2nd time. Are your dogs friends with the bunny? My Sam got along quite well with my bunny, they were buds and hung out together in the yard.
> 
> As for a male's height and neutering, both of my boys were neutured at 6 months of age. Sam grew to be huge...and he was the runt of his litter, so his size surprised me very much. My Ike was the largest puppy in his litter and he's 25" tall, maybe a tad under, so within the male standard. Sam was very thin faced, narrow chested, and had a long body and tail. Ike is in my signature pic. He's not as thin or narrow as Sam was, but he doesn't have the typical male head either. He's a bit feminine looking.
> 
> ...


Charlie loves my bunnies! as well as my cats & hamster- I've never had an animal that he didn't love. He just wants to lick everything to death lol.


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## ladyhawk (Mar 9, 2010)

Fine looking boy, loving his zipper nose. He's double uniqe.


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## Ranger (Nov 11, 2009)

Chantel said:


> Charlie loves my bunnies! as well as my cats & hamster- I've never had an animal that he didn't love. He just wants to lick everything to death lol.


I am soooooo jealous!!


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## Chantel (Feb 8, 2011)

ladyhawk said:


> Fine looking boy, loving his zipper nose. He's double uniqe.


 
haha thank you! We definitely will always know him apart from other dogs, that's for sure. We call the hair line down his nose "where he was sewed together"


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

A lot of mine would chase the bun, so he is a sweetheart!


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## Rhapsody in Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

I have three Goldens. Our male, Marty, is from a breeder in Iowa - he is the tallest golden of our three - and everywhere we are asked if he is really a golden. He weighs 115 and does not look it. He lumbers when he runs. He is the sweetest dog - he was also the most difficult to train. He was very hyper as a pup and is still not motivated by food. We stuck with him - and it paid off. He has great manners now - but does every thing in a big way, which is sometimes very funny and sometimes not so funny. 

Having been through this experience with him, I will always very wary about size in the breed. 

Our two girls are much smaller than Marty - they are from Dichi. They have great temperments and beautiful coats. They are very easy to work with - a pleasure to train. 

All three were spade/neutered just before 6 months of age. I won't post a lot of links - I have a photo album - but here is a picture that shows the difference in size between Marty (who is field bred) and Melody (who is is from a breeder who breeds for show, agility, and therapy.) As you can see from the picture, there is a big difference in size. There was also a big difference in energy and trainability . . . I could go on and on but we love them all to the moon.

P.S. Big dogs can be very cute. No one expects Marty to be so gentle. When we are at the dog park he is very paternal to the younger dogs and does a little twirl dance around smaller dogs. He makes people laugh every where we go. Men seem to love him - its funny how it works that way - maybe they see the good sport he is. He is very affectunate and up for anything. 

I think your big guy is beautiful : )

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...cie-picture6417-hatching-mischevious-plan.jpg


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## Chantel (Feb 8, 2011)

Marty's Mom said:


> I have three Goldens. Our male, Marty, is from a breeder in Iowa - he is the tallest golden of our three - and everywhere we are asked if he is really a golden. He weighs 115 and does not look it. He lumbers when he runs. He is the sweetest dog - he was also the most difficult to train. He was very hyper as a pup and is still not motivated by food. We stuck with him - and it paid off. He has great manners now - but does every thing in a big way, which is sometimes very funny and sometimes not so funny.
> 
> Having been through this experience with him, I will always very wary about size in the breed.
> 
> ...


Thank you! yours are very cute as well. Wow that is a big size difference! 
No one expects Charlie to be as gentle as he is either, he is great with children, LOVES babies-my nephew is two now, Charlie has loved him since he was a month old! We just have to limit the amount of licking! haha. He also loves every single animal he's ever been around- large dogs, small dogs, kittens, cats, rabbits, you name it.. he loves it. He will lay on the floor with the rabbits and wag his tail. Our one cat had 5 kittens, and as you can see in the picture on the first page in this thread- he loved them as well, and when the kittens started walking and one kitten would wander off, he would go over to it as if to "herd" it back with the rest. He is the sweetest dog and I honestly couldn't ask for a better one! 
As far as training- Charlie was wonderful, I think I could count the number of accidents he's had on two hands, he was trained within the first two weeks, and hasn't had an accident since he was probably 3 months old. Even when he as very sick (vomiting with diarrea :/ ) this past summer, he let us know when he needed out! 
I'm not sure if many dogs do this or not, Charlie is my first dog, but my mom has a dog (who happens to be charlies brother), and I've baby sat 3 other dogs before- and none of them have done this, Charlie goes to the front door and makes a "humm humm humm" wimpering noise and touches his nose to the door knob, then stands and stares until you take him to the bathroom, and if you dont take him right away he will keep repeating the noise and staring over and over. He is a very smart dog. Even if I am in a completely different room he tells me he needs to go by the noise.


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## Rhapsody in Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Chantel said:


> Thank you! yours are very cute as well. Wow that is a big size difference!
> No one expects Charlie to be as gentle as he is either, he is great with children, LOVES babies-my nephew is two now, Charlie has loved him since he was a month old! We just have to limit the amount of licking! haha. He also loves every single animal he's ever been around- large dogs, small dogs, kittens, cats, rabbits, you name it.. he loves it. He will lay on the floor with the rabbits and wag his tail. Our one cat had 5 kittens, and as you can see in the picture on the first page in this thread- he loved them as well, and when the kittens started walking and one kitten would wander off, he would go over to it as if to "herd" it back with the rest. He is the sweetest dog and I honestly couldn't ask for a better one!
> As far as training- Charlie was wonderful, I think I could count the number of accidents he's had on two hands, he was trained within the first two weeks, and hasn't had an accident since he was probably 3 months old. Even when he as very sick (vomiting with diarrea :/ ) this past summer, he let us know when he needed out!
> I'm not sure if many dogs do this or not, Charlie is my first dog, but my mom has a dog (who happens to be charlies brother), and I've baby sat 3 other dogs before- and none of them have done this, Charlie goes to the front door and makes a "humm humm humm" wimpering noise and touches his nose to the door knob, then stands and stares until you take him to the bathroom, and if you dont take him right away he will keep repeating the noise and staring over and over. He is a very smart dog. Even if I am in a completely different room he tells me he needs to go by the noise.


warms my heart . . . . Marty would push our younger pups with his nose
when they were babies - just a little boost to help them get over the big steps to get into the house. The first time I saw that, I was in awe. Charlie is a sweetheart - oh yes. I can see that. You have something very special there ♥


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## ktosh (Jun 1, 2021)

jimla said:


> *Tall boys*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi Jim! We have a tall 9 month old puppy who’s almost 27” at the withers. Did your sweet boy live a long life? I’ve heard taller dogs die earlier and I’m hoping that’s not the case. Thank you!


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## FurdogDad (Mar 30, 2021)

This thread is from 2011....you probably won't get a response.


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