# Is 6 weeks to soon?? :/



## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Six weeks is too soon..


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## GoldenBoyV (Feb 15, 2013)

It's always been my understanding that puppies go home at 8 weeks. We got ours at 10.


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## Stretchdrive (Mar 12, 2011)

I agree, 6 weeks is too soon. The vets probably see a lot of 6 week puppies, because of all the people buying from irresponsible, or uneducated breeders. Most people do not know the importance of waiting, and with the excitement of getting a puppy end up getting them too soon. After all it is very hard to resist a 6 week old puppy's face.


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## Tayla's Mom (Apr 20, 2012)

Way too soon. You will have issues especially with bite inhibition. We are Tayla's second owner and here original owner get her at about 5-6 weeks. We paid for it up until she was a year. We got her at 4 months. The bite issue was the worst.


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## KGolden13 (Apr 3, 2013)

Oh boy!  Now I don't know what to do. Do you think the bite inhibition is something that can be worked on with training or do you think I should let the breeder know that I don't feel comfortable getting a 6 week year old puppy. I would just tell her to keep him longer but the other pups are going at 6 weeks as well.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

6 weeks is way too young. Standard is 7-8 weeks. I bet if she's cutting this corner, she's cutting other corners, and is not as great as you've been led to believe. Let's try clearances for a start. Do both parents have all four final health clearances? OFA hips, elbows, heart and annual eye exam.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

They're not ready at six weeks. The earliest that they're ready is around seven weeks, not before (and that's for go-getters). 

Puppies eyes don't open till about two weeks of age and they can't really focus on anything for a few more days after that. They really don't do anything other than eat and sleep until they're about five weeks old. It is at that point that they BEGIN to learn and start the process of socialization. Each day is a huge learning experience at this stage. A puppy can not learn how to be a dog in a few hours.


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## KGolden13 (Apr 3, 2013)

@K9-Design Yes all parents have all 4 health clearances. I'm just so torn now. Like, I did months and months of research and now I feel so bad i'm tearing up! I don't know why I never thought about the age until a few minutes ago when I was reading an article on it. But yes both Mom and Dad have all health clearances.


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## Mom28kds (Mar 8, 2013)

I say don't do it. I got a dog at 5 1/2 to 6 weeks before I knew any better. She nipped at the kids (all in playing) so much they were afraid to go in the backyard with her. I said I would never get such a young pup again. I'm even cautious getting a 7 week old pup now. It could have also been the breed and personality but I'm not willing to chance it. She was a mixed breed that we got from someone we knew that their dog accidentally got pregnant.


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## KGolden13 (Apr 3, 2013)

@Mom28kds Yeah i'm gonna call the breeder tonight and express my concern and see what she has to say. As far as your puppy, did she ever get better as far as the nipping was concerned?


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## Iris (Jan 9, 2013)

It is actually illegal in some states to sell apup younger than eight weeks. We got one of our dogs at two days shy of eight weeks and there was concern about that. Don't do it. I worry about why she wants to sell them so young


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## Tayla's Mom (Apr 20, 2012)

Bite can be worked on. Its a long process and you must do it only through positive reinforcement. Took us 8 long months of ripped clothes, bruises and teeth cuts. Wouldn't go back to that time for anything. At 15 months Tayla will still have little spells when frustrated. Tonight on our walk was the first time in over a month. I don't know what to suggest. If all the puppies will be gone there isn't much your puppy can learn except from the mom.


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## Iris (Jan 9, 2013)

Wanted to add that the dog we got at more than seven and aha
F weeks was a lab.


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## xoerika620xo (May 25, 2012)

like everyone says 6 weeks is way too soon. Can you ask the breeder if your dog can stay for a bit longer? i strongly suggest atleast until the pup is 7 and a half weeks.


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## Mirinde (Jun 8, 2011)

Iorek was five weeks. This was not intentional. We got there, puppies had been kicked outside and isolated from mom. It was 35-40 degrees in Washington at that point. We just got him and left. Didn't put the timeline together until after the fact. Then I cried and cried and tried to call the "breeder" for more information and never heard from her again. Given what we went through raising Iorek, part of our breeder-shopping for our next dog will be that they are willing to hold onto puppies until up to 10 weeks depending on what they seem ready for. I would never do under eight weeks again. With that said, bottom line is that lots of puppies do go home under eight weeks (generally from less than ideal circumstances) and end up alright. It should be avoided though. If you have your heart set on this puppy and your breeder is not willing to hold onto him/her for an extra couple weeks, there are some things you can do to mitigate potential future issues... some of them are very easy and some require more extensive intervention. Please post back for help if you do end up with this puppy and would like more information...lots of forum members will have great ideas for you. I won't flood your brain at this point though, since I'm sure you're already more than stressed out by this whole deal.


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## KGolden13 (Apr 3, 2013)

Tayla's Mom said:


> Bite can be worked on. Its a long process and you must do it only through positive reinforcement. Took us 8 long months of ripped clothes, bruises and teeth cuts. Wouldn't go back to that time for anything. At 15 months Tayla will still have little spells when frustrated. Tonight on our walk was the first time in over a month. I don't know what to suggest. If all the puppies will be gone there isn't much your puppy can learn except from the mom.


Ughhhhhhh! okay i'm calling the breeder as we speak.  Because I think I might have made a big mistake. :uhoh: And @Iris I had no idea it was illegal!!! Apparently I need to do better research too! ugh! tears . I will let you know what the breeder says. Gosh, thank you guys so much for being honest with me.


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## sharlin (Feb 26, 2007)

I'm betting the breeder won't have any problem keeping & will probably be relieved you've made that decision.


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## KGolden13 (Apr 3, 2013)

Mirinde said:


> Iorek was five weeks. This was not intentional. We got there, puppies had been kicked outside and isolated from mom. It was 35-40 degrees in Washington at that point. We just got him and left. Didn't put the timeline together until after the fact. Then I cried and cried and tried to call the "breeder" for more information and never heard from her again. Given what we went through raising Iorek, part of our breeder-shopping for our next dog will be that they are willing to hold onto puppies until up to 10 weeks depending on what they seem ready for. I would never do under eight weeks again. With that said, bottom line is that lots of puppies do go home under eight weeks (generally from less than ideal circumstances) and end up alright. It should be avoided though. If you have your heart set on this puppy and your breeder is not willing to hold onto him/her for an extra couple weeks, there are some things you can do to mitigate potential future issues... some of them are very easy and some require more extensive intervention. Please post back for help if you do end up with this puppy and would like more information...lots of forum members will have great ideas for you. I won't flood your brain at this point though, since I'm sure you're already more than stressed out by this whole deal.


Thank you so much for this! You are right, I've already made so many arrangements and vet visits and puppy classes. I'm just so mad at myself for not realizing this issue earlier. I am so glad Iorek turned out to be a wonderful dog after an awful start. People like that make me realize how evil and cruel some people can really be. I visited 4 different breeders over a 9 month period until I found her and everything just seemed so perfect. But I just called the breeder and I am waiting for her to call me back so I'll know more after then. Thanks again I really appreciate it!


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I'm with K9-design. It's very unlikely that the breeder has done everything right in all the rest of the breeding practices if she's doing something this substantial out of the norm. She may have talked the talk really well with you, but it's unlikely that everything else is in order. If you don't feel comfortable posting information about the parents publicly in the thread, you could PM one of us and we could help look it up for you. With the AKC #s of the parents (or the registered names), you can verify many of the standard clearances.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

May I ask if the breeder is around here? I only know 3 reputable breeders in Mississippi that do all health clearances on their Goldens. Have you checked clearances yourself or are you just going by what she told you?


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## Mirinde (Jun 8, 2011)

He is a wonderful dog, but like Tayla's Mom, we dealt with some behavioral issues for much of his first year. Getting a puppy prior to eight weeks definitely can set you up for a hard road, but if that's the decision you ultimately make, you will need all the resources you can get so be sure to stick around.


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## KGolden13 (Apr 3, 2013)

Okay first of all I would like to say thank you to everyone ya'll are helping me out tremendously. And KFayard thank you so much for taking time and looking into everything for me. I am a complete mess at this point. I just called the breeder and was told that she always sells her puppies at 6 weeks unless they are not eating well or adjusting properly. I told her I have not had anyone tell me that it was OK to get a puppy that young and she told me that she's not sure about other breeds or breeders but that her puppies have always had great turnouts. She then gave me names of each person she sold her last litter too and told me to call and talk to them. I called 2 of them and they had nothing to but good things to say. One guy told me his puppy had problems nipping at first but after a month of positive reinforcement he is no longer nipping anymore. 

So that was her response. Any advice from here?


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Have you actually seen the health clearances on both mom and dad? 

Is the breeder sending all the puppies home at the same time, or would it be possible a few will be staying a little longer? If some are staying longer, ask the breeder to keep yours until the last puppies leave. Even a few days will help with socialization between puppies.


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## Mirinde (Jun 8, 2011)

Have you given mom and dad's information to one of the other forum members here so that they can verify clearances for you and/or have you actually verified them through K9-Data? If so, were the clearances definitely legitimate? If not, I would recommend that as your first step.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

KGolden13 said:


> Okay first of all I would like to say thank you to everyone ya'll are helping me out tremendously. And KFayard thank you so much for taking time and looking into everything for me. I am a complete mess at this point. I just called the breeder and was told that she always sells her puppies at 6 weeks unless they are not eating well or adjusting properly. I told her I have not had anyone tell me that it was OK to get a puppy that young and she told me that she's not sure about other breeds or breeders but that her puppies have always had great turnouts. She then gave me names of each person she sold her last litter too and told me to call and talk to them. I called 2 of them and they had nothing to but good things to say. One guy told me his puppy had problems nipping at first but after a month of positive reinforcement he is no longer nipping anymore.
> 
> So that was her response. Any advice from here?


You know mine :-( how many litters has she bred? How old is the oldest litter?


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

KGolden13 said:


> Okay first of all I would like to say thank you to everyone ya'll are helping me out tremendously. And KFayard thank you so much for taking time and looking into everything for me. I am a complete mess at this point. I just called the breeder and was told that she always sells her puppies at 6 weeks unless they are not eating well or adjusting properly. I told her I have not had anyone tell me that it was OK to get a puppy that young and she told me that she's not sure about other breeds or breeders but that her puppies have always had great turnouts. She then gave me names of each person she sold her last litter too and told me to call and talk to them. I called 2 of them and they had nothing to but good things to say. One guy told me his puppy had problems nipping at first but after a month of positive reinforcement he is no longer nipping anymore.
> 
> So that was her response. Any advice from here?


If it were me, I would walk away. Something about a breeder pushing pups out the door at 6 weeks raises a really big red flag for me. But I suppose part of the answer would also lay in whatever it was that kfayard was able to find out for you. Are clearances really in place? Is everything else really up to par with this breeder? In the end, you're the only one who can decide if you're comfortable enough to go through with getting this puppy. Either way, I wish you the best of luck!

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Mirinde said:


> Have you given mom and dad's information to one of the other forum members here so that they can verify clearances for you and/or have you actually verified them through K9-Data? If so, were the clearances definitely legitimate? If not, I would recommend that as your first step.


I agree with everything you said but with one little caveat -- clearances really need to be confirmed either through the OFA database or by hard copy (in the case of hearts or eyes that weren't submitted or hips done through pennhip). It's too easy to enter fraudulent information on k9 data. I believe that the person who runs it takes that type of thing very seriously but she can't independently verify every bit of information that's added to the site. So if no one has raised red flags, it could go unnoticed for a significant amount of time.

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## Mirinde (Jun 8, 2011)

If you have it in you to walk away, then I would walk away...especially if there are not legitimate health clearances. 

If you can't, and you are already attached, then that is what it is and you have some things to prepare for that we can help you with, but know the risk you are taking. 

I'm sorry you are going through this  What a crapshoot... it sounds like you tried so hard to do your homework, too.


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## Mirinde (Jun 8, 2011)

Jersey's Mom said:


> I agree with everything you said but with one little caveat -- clearances really need to be confirmed either through the OFA database or by hard copy (in the case of hearts or eyes that weren't submitted or hips done through pennhip). It's too easy to enter fraudulent information on k9 data. I believe that the person who runs it takes that type of thing very seriously but she can't independently verify every bit of information that's added to the site. So if no one has raised red flags, it could go unnoticed for a significant amount of time.
> 
> Julie, Jersey and Oz


Oh okay! Defer to Jersey's Mom here then, OP  I am not at all familiar with the actual databases, so I got confused. I did not realize you could enter in inaccurate data. Sorry about that.


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## KGolden13 (Apr 3, 2013)

I am attached. Very attached. I have already invested so much into this and can't believe I overlooked something that seems such common sense. One thing KFayard mentioned to me is the difference in vet check clearances and health clearances which is where I think I got confused when she showed me "paperwork." But she is emailing some questions to send directly to the breeder and then I am going to check and see if I can get my deposit back and wait for a reputable breeder based on her response. I really don't wanna walk away but.... i don't see any other smart option at this point. This is heartbreaking, but thanks for all of the support ya'll have given me. I am so sad and embarrassed. But I am gonna try and make smarter decisions from now on and try not to cry too hard.  Goodnight and thanks again to everyone.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Do not be embarrassed!! The breeder should be embarrassed for charging that much and no clearances after she told you she did. Everything happens for a reason! Stay strong.


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## Millie'sMom (Sep 7, 2012)

I am sorry you are going through this, but I think you made the right decision to walk away. When I was looking for my 1st golden, I knew nothing, and picked a local breeder. As I started reading about bringing a puppy home, I realized the breeder I had chosen was not what I thought him to be. Long story short, when I asked for my deposit back, he got extremely defensive and threatening, so I walked away and considered it $100 well spent. The following year I adopted a retired breeding golden, who was the best dog I could have ever hoped for. She was with us for almost 14 years.

Good luck with your search, the right puppy is out there waiting for you.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Hoping she can get her deposit back!! And it was way more than $100...so really hoping the breeder can atleast offer the deposit back.


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## Mirinde (Jun 8, 2011)

I'm so sorry for you  You are making a good choice.You want to be able to enjoy their baby stages, not be worrying about what is going to eventually pop up in the future because this breeder was careless about the last crucial weeks with mom and litter mates. The right dog will come along and shower you with love all the same. Your future puppy, when the time comes, will be lucky to have a doggy mom willing to go through heartbreak for the sake of being better educated and prepared. You have no reason to be embarrassed. Hugs.


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## Finn's Fan (Dec 22, 2007)

It's illegal in Colorado to sell puppies under the age of eight weeks. Google the law in Mississippi and see what it is. It may help you to be strong if this breeder is breaking the law, but even if she is not, I'd walk away from a breeder who sells pups at six weeks. It's simply not good for the puppies.


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## Bentleysmom (Aug 11, 2012)

I brought Bentley home at 6 weeks . I knew nothing about cerfs or anything else . I don't regret my boy and we had no problem with him being so young but at the chance of my "breeder" crawling out of the woodwork again and demanding another apology , I will say that at this point I don't believe she was a BYB . I think she's a puppy mill . Just be very careful who you deal with . I'm glad you found the forum before making a decision . Good luck.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

kfayard said:


> Do not be embarrassed!! The breeder should be embarrassed for charging that much and no clearances after she told you she did. Everything happens for a reason! Stay strong.


Ahh...so the breeder in question was being deceptive about clearances? Anney gets points for calling that so early.


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## Sadie53 (Dec 27, 2012)

*Is six weeks too early?*

Yes it is too early. They need their time with their littermates and mom to learn 
dog behavior and manners from their mom.:curtain:


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## Stretchdrive (Mar 12, 2011)

I am sorry to hear this will not be working out for you, but you will find the right puppy in time. Hang in there.

I did not like the part where the breeder told you that you could call the puppy owners from her last litter that was sold at 6 weeks. I personally do not care how it worked out for the other people getting them too young, I would want what is best for MY puppy. I am glad to hear you are going elsewhere.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I'm glad you found all this out _before_ you got your puppy instead of after. Well done for researching carefully. It's heartbreaking to find out that you'll have to wait longer before you get a pup, but getting one that's bred according to the best practices of the breed club is truly worth it in terms of protecting yourself from financial hardship down the road and from the heartbreak of physical and behavioral problems.


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## Mom28kds (Mar 8, 2013)

KGolden13 said:


> @Mom28kds Yeah i'm gonna call the breeder tonight and express my concern and see what she has to say. As far as your puppy, did she ever get better as far as the nipping was concerned?


We actually rehomed her to a family without kids. We kept trying to work with her. then my father-in-law was diagnosed with cancer. We needed to spend countless hours away from home so we decided it was best to regime her. 


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

The bad thing with this situation is she put half down on this puppy for a deposit...which is a pretty penny! So really hoping that the breeder can refund her money!


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## Willow52 (Aug 14, 2009)

Hank was given to me as a gift, he came home at 5.5 weeks. It wasn't until he was home and I actually had a chance read the paperwork that I knew his DOB. Other than a tummy issue we had after he was home about a week (nothing specifically diagnosed, watery stool and a round of meds.) he did fine. Hank was actually the least mouthy of my puppies I've rasied over the years, the others slightly older when coming home. He has been by far the easiest puppy/dog...to potty train, with recall and calmness indoors.

Clearences...his parents have none that I know of, or at least there aren't any listed in his pedigree. The only heath issue he has (so far anyway) are seasonal allergies that he gets a shot for each fall. He'll be 4 y.o. in July.

Do I recommed going this route when getting a puppy, no, but it doesn't mean it's a diaster waiting to happen. My Maggie came from an ad we answered in the newspaper. I had never even heard of clearances when we got her. She lived to be 2 weeks shy of her 14th birthday with no major health problems.


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

makes me nauseous ... I know how hard it is to save for something for such a long time - to daydream about it for months and months....and to think that all that is lost just stinks!
fingers crossed that the breeder steps up...



kfayard said:


> The bad thing with this situation is she put half down on this puppy for a deposit...which is a pretty penny! So really hoping that the breeder can refund her money!


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

LibertyME said:


> makes me nauseous ... I know how hard it is to save for something for such a long time - to daydream about it for months and months....and to think that all that is lost just stinks!
> fingers crossed that the breeder steps up...


I know! I feel for her and the situation. I have told her that I would help her find a reputable breeder and puppy.


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## Barkr (Dec 23, 2011)

The fact that breeder was deceptive should void any contract and a full refund should be given. *OP--- I admire your fortitude.* There is a puppy out there and it will be the right one. And if it is illegal in your state to sell puppies before 7-8 wks that tidbit can be used as well. Get your $ and report to the authorities.


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

It is unlawful in Maine to sell a puppy under 8 weeks of age...
Anyone in Mississippi know the laws there?


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

KGolden13 said:


> I am attached. Very attached. I have already invested so much into this and can't believe I overlooked something that seems such common sense. One thing KFayard mentioned to me is the difference in vet check clearances and health clearances which is where I think I got confused when she showed me "paperwork." But she is emailing some questions to send directly to the breeder and then I am going to check and see if I can get my deposit back and wait for a reputable breeder based on her response. I really don't wanna walk away but.... i don't see any other smart option at this point. This is heartbreaking, but thanks for all of the support ya'll have given me. I am so sad and embarrassed. But I am gonna try and make smarter decisions from now on and try not to cry too hard.  Goodnight and thanks again to everyone.


I want to tell you how proud I am of you for making a very tough decision on not bringing home this puppy. It would be easy in the sense of immediate gratification to have the puppy you've been waiting for, close your eyes and pray for the best. But the potential for disaster here is simply not worth the risk. 

Please don't feel embarrassed, the ins and outs of making sure you do every single thing right in acquiring a pure bred Golden from a reputable breeder can be very confusing and overwhelming even for people who have been trying to learn for years. The people on this forum want what is best for that puppy in the long run and for you.

You are showing great wisdom and maturity in not taking the risks associated with bringing home a puppy from this woman. I hope you can get your deposit back but, if you can't get it, I would count it as a a life lesson and never look back. Let Kfayard help you find a breeder who will be a mentor and a support for the life of your dog. Not someone who is trying to shove off a newborn before she is equipped for her life.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Willow52 said:


> Hank was given to me as a gift, he came home at 5.5 weeks. It wasn't until he was home and I actually had a chance read the paperwork that I knew his DOB. Other than a tummy issue we had after he was home about a week (nothing specifically diagnosed, watery stool and a round of meds.) he did fine. Hank was actually the least mouthy of my puppies I've rasied over the years, the others slightly older when coming home. He has been by far the easiest puppy/dog...to potty train, with recall and calmness indoors.
> 
> Clearences...his parents have none that I know of, or at least there aren't any listed in his pedigree. The only heath issue he has (so far anyway) are seasonal allergies that he gets a shot for each fall. He'll be 4 y.o. in July.
> 
> Do I recommed going this route when getting a puppy, no, but it doesn't mean it's a diaster waiting to happen. My Maggie came from an ad we answered in the newspaper. I had never even heard of clearances when we got her. She lived to be 2 weeks shy of her 14th birthday with no major health problems.


And that is kinda what I told her. We can not predict the future. Do clearances lessen the chances of health issues? Yes. But, I can not tell her that she will not have a healthy puppy from this breeder.

IMO, this breeder is charging way to much for puppies with no clearances on parents or compete in venue. She is pocketing all this money and not investing it back in the dogs.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

LibertyME said:


> It is unlawful in Maine to sell a puppy under 8 weeks of age...
> Anyone in Mississippi know the laws there?


The breeder is actually in Louisiana...where laws are worse. I need to try and find the law.


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## goldhaven (Sep 3, 2009)

I see that you are in Miss. so this doesn't apply to you but I found this interesting. It was updated in 2011 so not sure if much has changed since then.

Age to Sell Puppy Table

Hope that you are able to get your deposit back and find a reputable breeder.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

It does not look like MS has an age limit law that the OP can fall upon if the deposit is not refunded. 
To the OP - do you have any friends and neighbors with dogs to socialize your pup if you will have to purchase this dog?
Bite inhibition will not be learned by 8 weeks but that will give them a foundation from their playmates to build upon. If the other pups leave as well at the same time it is pointless to leave your pup there.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

I am on my tablet and cannot link the source, will do later. This site has a chart listing states with laws dictating minimum ages for sale or separating mom from offspring and as suspected, Mississippi is not listed. 

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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Aah, Goldhaven linked it while I was posting!

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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Yeah those 4 clearances are always a dead giveaway. Why is it that with any other red flag, comes a lack of clearances? Anybody can take a dog to the vet and get the clearances, it's not a secret, yet it's such a foolproof and easy way to weed out bad breeders. 

I will share a personal story -- in one litter that Fisher sired, there was only one girl and the rest boys. The breeder had this preconceived notion that the boys would pick on the girl, as if at that age they know the difference. Anyways she let the one girl puppy go to it's home at 6 weeks, the boys stayed until 7 1/2. She convinced the new owners of the girl that the girl would get picked on and beat up by the boys if she stayed longer. (At least, this is what she told me and the new owners.) Well guess what the new owners took this to heart and wouldn't allow their puppy around other dogs (they didn't own any other dogs either, but would completely avoid other dogs while on a walk, at the park, at the vet, etc). For a YEAR their dog never saw another dog, and surprise surprise, is TERRIFIED of other dogs! What a disaster. Why the breeder did this I have no idea, and yes of course, she is by all other accounts, a responsible breeder, otherwise of course I wouldn't have let her use Fisher.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

The breeder is not in Mississippi... She is Loisiana. But, probably the same.


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

Did you write a check for the deposit? Was it cashed yet? If not, stop payment! 

Is there anything in writing about the deposit? If not, I would think that she can't keep the deposit if you don't take a puppy. I'm not close to a lawyer but that seems reasonable to me. 


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Deposit rules vary by state as well, and I don't know the rules where the OP lives.

However, the fact that the breeder deceived the buyer may provide some leverage here.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

And there is nothing in writing.


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## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

goldhaven said:


> I see that you are in Miss. so this doesn't apply to you but I found this interesting. It was updated in 2011 so not sure if much has changed since then.
> 
> Age to Sell Puppy Table


Thanks for posting. According to this table neither Louisiana or Mississippi have relevant laws. I was interested that in the states with laws the required age is almost always 8 weeks with a couple of states having 7 weeks.

Does anyone know what's up with Massachusetts having an exemption for _" licensed pet shops and licensed institutions"._ I would have thought they would be among the ones to whom it would be most important that the law apply.


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

TheZ's said:


> Thanks for posting. According to this table neither Louisiana or Mississippi have relevant laws. I was interested that in the states with laws the required age is almost always 8 weeks with a couple of states having 7 weeks.
> 
> Does anyone know what's up with Massachusetts having an exemption for _" licensed pet shops and licensed institutions"._ I would have thought they would be among the ones to whom it would be most important that the law apply.


Pet shops and puppy mills likely hired a lobbyist to make sure they were exempt from the legislation. 


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

kfayard said:


> The breeder is actually in Louisiana...where laws are worse. I need to try and find the law.


This website is a good first start to look for various state laws regarding animals:
Michigan State University College of Law 
Then you can go into the state's online statutes to see if the law has changed, been amended, repealed, etc.


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## KGolden13 (Apr 3, 2013)

Hey everyone! Sorry for the late response. Today has been literally the most stressful in years. I've been on the phone the ENTIRE day talking with the breeder, vets, puppy behavior coaches, and of course KFayard. After everything discussed I have decided to keep the puppy but get him at 8 weeks old instead of 6 weeks. I will try to make this as short as possible but think all of ya'll deserve to know the summary of everything and how I made my decision. Without the advice you guys have given me I would have ended up making a big mistake. 

Here is a brief summary of what happened. 

So after speaking with KFayard and getting some exact questions to ask the breeder, I sent the breeder a very lengthy email. She called me this morning at 5am to discuss everything. 

In a nutshell she said the mom and dad didn't have health certificates but the grandmother and grandparents did. She called the breeder in North Carolina where she purchased the mom and dad this morning and actually had them fax her a copy of the health certificates which she then photocopied to me. Then she gave me the breeder’s number and I called them and talked to them for a while. They told me both the grandparents Robin and Chester were alive but they weren't sure about the great grandparents, which were with a breeder in Washington. It's a really long story but she made me feel that her puppies were healthy and that they will have a clean bill of health before she will let them go. She told me if I'm not 100% positive that she will give me my deposit back no questions asked and find max another home. She gave me the number to her vet to call. She also said that she normally lets her puppies go home at 6 weeks unless the vet says otherwise but she would be more than happy to keep him as long as I want. 

The last thing she said is that if at any point in time I can't take care of him for whatever circumstance to return him to her and she will take him back no matter what. She mentioned that it is all stated in the contract and paperwork I will fill out when I pick him up.

I then called my vet and he said that she seems like a good breeder who loves her dogs and means well, but that she just doesn’t realize the importance of health clearances. When I asked her opinion she said if the puppy gets a clear check from the vet and I plan to neuter him (which I do) AND let her hold him until 8 weeks (which I am going to do) then he does not see it being too big of an issue considering everything that has happened. 

So that is where I’m at now. I know many of you probably disagree and I fully open to everybody’s comments. I am picking him up at 8 weeks though FOR SURE! And I have copies of the great grandparents and grandparent’s health clearances in hand! Let me know how ya’ll feel about this please! 

Also I MUST SAY THANK YOU TO KFAYARD FOR CALLING ME AND GOING THROUGH EVERY DETAIL AND ASPECT OF THIS SITUATION WITH ME. YOU ARE TRULY A WONDERFUL PERSON AND GOD BLESS YOU. TRULY!

To everyone who has commented, thank you so much for helping me through this. You guys make me not afraid to ask for help. In the end, although I am continuing on to purchase Max, I AM waiting until 8 weeks to get him. I would have never come to this decision without ya’ll. So once again! THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU ☺


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I hope you have a healthy pup. But if the parents do not have the clearances, where does that leave your pup?

My Laney(Mandell Marlenes Celebration UD RA CGC) had OFAGood parents with clear elbows and she was ultimately dysplastic. The parent clearances mean nothing in terms of the pup's clearances... And I will not comment on the wisdom of breeding a bitch to the same dog on the premises.


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## AngieAvenue (Mar 17, 2013)

My only concern would be her not having health certs on the parents. I haven't read all the responses in this thread, so you may have already answered - is she charging 'full price' even through she doesn't have clearances?

Follow your heart - if you feel this is right for you and your family, go for it! Great plan leaving your puppy with mom for the extra two weeks. I think that will be a benefit to you in the long run!


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## Wafer1141 (Mar 12, 2013)

If you are leaving him there for another two weeks will there be other puppies there with him for him to play with and learn from?


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## KGolden13 (Apr 3, 2013)

Wafer1141 said:


> If you are leaving him there for another two weeks will there be other puppies there with him for him to play with and learn from?


Yes she said there are a couple that probably will not be ready to go because they are a little smaller and are not eating as well. So he most likely won't be by himself.


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## KGolden13 (Apr 3, 2013)

AngieAvenue said:


> My only concern would be her not having health certs on the parents. I haven't read all the responses in this thread, so you may have already answered - is she charging 'full price' even through she doesn't have clearances?
> 
> Follow your heart - if you feel this is right for you and your family, go for it! Great plan leaving your puppy with mom for the extra two weeks. I think that will be a benefit to you in the long run!


Yes she is charging full price unfortunately. But I have thought a lot about and based on everything I honestly do think this is the best decision for me. Thank you so much for understanding. I know most people will not agree which I completely respect and understand. I trust that your puppy buying experience has been much better???? :crossfing


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## Tayla's Mom (Apr 20, 2012)

KGolden13 said:


> Yes she is charging full price unfortunately. But I have thought a lot about and based on everything I honestly do think this is the best decision for me. Thank you so much for understanding. I know most people will not agree which I completely respect and understand. I trust that your puppy buying experience has been much better???? :crossfing


Clearances are very important, but are not a 100% guarantee just like not having them doesn't guarantee disaster. Our Jesse had nothing. She was a stray. She had minor issues her whole life and lived to 15. Good luck with your puppy and know you will get a lot of support here.


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## KGolden13 (Apr 3, 2013)

Tayla's Mom said:


> Clearances are very important, but are not a 100% guarantee just like not having them doesn't guarantee disaster. Our Jesse had nothing. She was a stray. She had minor issues her whole life and lived to 15. Good luck with your puppy and know you will get a lot of support here.


Thank you so much! It was a tough decision and believe me when I say I thought long and hard about it. But somebody has got to love and take care of that puppy and I am willing to take the risk and put in the extra work and effort. Thank you!


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## AngieAvenue (Mar 17, 2013)

My experience has not been a walk in the park. 

We've spoken to about 7 breeders and we've finally selected one that gave us everything we asked for and then some. 

Of the 7 we spoke to, there were two others who I felt were the 'one.' The first I felt really good about. We really clicked, I left the conversations feeling great, she answered all of my questions. There were things I didn't feel great about, felt I could get past (mom being under 2, only pre-lims) but the more I thought about it, I had to ask a LOT of questions to get that info... after feeling heart broken, I decided if I had to ask and ask and ask to get these answers, what other surprises was I going to face?

The second was very lovely. Had a lot of history breeding and many litters to show for it. The parents of the litter had all clearances, etc but they weren't on the OFFA website. I'm in Canada, so I understand there are other methods to get clearances... Still felt trustworthy. Then after deciding this was the one, I asked to see the a copy of the clearances... and never got a response. It's possible it was an e-mail mix up, but the 'this is right' feeling I had went away and I didn't pursue any further. 

The breeder we decided on answered everything I had on me 'to ask' list before I even asked. The process of us applying for a dog (providing references, questionnaires, etc) was a big to-do, but it became clear that this was a breeder who cares about his dogs, not just about the $. It was more expensive, but for a little buddy I'm going to have for (hopefully) 12+ years, it was worth it.... I guess we'll see once we get him and he grows up 

I feel like this process has been a roller coaster, I can only imagine how you feel! 

Let me know if you want to chat... I'm always around!


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Not to be offensive, but why purchase a pup whose two parents had all four clearances ?


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## goldhaven (Sep 3, 2009)

I know it was a really tough decision. Good luck with your new pup and don't forget to post pictures and updates on Max. Can't wait for the photos.


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## KGolden13 (Apr 3, 2013)

Thank you so much! I will definitely keep everyone updated. Here is a picture from last week! He's getting bigger everyday! They grow so fast 










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## KGolden13 (Apr 3, 2013)

AngieAvenue said:


> My experience has not been a walk in the park.
> 
> We've spoken to about 7 breeders and we've finally selected one that gave us everything we asked for and then some.
> 
> ...


Oh wow! You have been through a lot. Well I'm sure it's all worth it when you bring him home. Nothing like peace of mind . I will keep in touch definitely! What is your pups name again?


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Personally, I think this breeder is taking you for a ride. I disagree with your vet - she knows full well the importance of clearances. After all, she did go out and get her breeding dogs from a breeder who does them. She flat out lied to you the first time you asked her about clearances. She told you she had them. She clearly does not. Again, given that she made sure she bought from a breeder who did them, I have to assume this was dishonesty and not ignorance. Frankly that is not the type of relationship I would want with my breeder.... her word is good for nothing.

I'm confused about something here. Does she own both the sire and the dam from the litter? Did she purchase them both from the same breeder? Because it sounds from your post like you only spoke to one person regarding clearances. Did they send you verifiable clearance information on all four grandparents? Because you only mention two? Are the parents of this litter siblings or did I read this all wrong? 

As I said yesterday, I would personally walk away from this litter.... but this is your choice to make, not mine. I just hate to see someone be taken advantage of and lied to, especially when it comes to something as emotionally charged as adding a puppy to the family. Good luck in whatever course you take.

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Agree with Jersey's Mom. I've never heard of a breeder doing so many backflips to get someone to buy a puppy from them. Usually it's the other way around. Best of luck.


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## Katduf (Mar 10, 2013)

My breeder wouldn't accept a deposit and bear wasn't able to come home with us until 9 weeks. I am using her again this year for another pup, and I speak to her on a regular basis. I have always got straight up answers to my questions, and everything's backed up in reports and writing. Personally, if I didn't have full trust and honest communication with my breeder I wouldn't do it. I think any breeder who thinks its ok to let a pup go at 6 weeks either does not know what they're doing, or they are not invested in the well being of their pups. 


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

Considering she was willing to give you a refund on your deposit, I would have taken it and run. In the end you have puppy fever, we all understand that. I sincerely hope that things turn out for you and your newest addition.  You will certainly enjoy him. I caution that if the puppy is going to be solo after week 6 wks at the breeder, he may as well go home with you. 


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Given the sordid history of this purchase I personally would ask for a copy of the breeders contract *now* and review it carefully, before you go and purchase this puppy, so you are absolutely positive that everything you are asking for is in this contract. 

I also do not have much faith in what your vet tells you. Even my asked me if the puppy we were getting came from parents with the clearances since she's seen so many Goldens in her practice who had special health needs and came from breeding programs where clearances were not obtained. Heck, I adopted a puppy from a rescue that had AKC paperwork in the puppy package. I researched the pedigree and while the parents had hip and elbow clearances, they did not have eye or heart clearances- Guess what? This dog has a heart issue, and we spent thousands of dollars over the years for his visual impairments, including double cataract surgery and daily eye medications for him. The annual sonograms to monitor his heart also run in the hundreds of dollars and his medications are also pricey. Would clearances on his parents prevent the breeding and these issues? I don't know, but I wish they were done before his litter was conceived. 

I'd also *strongly* encourage you to obtain pet insurance for your little one. My vet also suggested we do that as well for our Golden puppy.


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## Barkr (Dec 23, 2011)

I am glad that you have settled this, and maybe you have rocked this woman's world enough to have her change the way she does things. I doubt clearances will be a top priority for her but maybe consider keeping the pups with mom & siblings longer. Reading this thread has definitely educated some of us. 

Now, so you are going to have a puppy, Hooray !!!! We will need a name and lots of pic's . Congratulations!


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## AngieAvenue (Mar 17, 2013)

Dallas Gold said:


> Given the sordid history of this purchase I personally would ask for a copy of the breeders contract *now* and review it carefully, before you go and purchase this puppy, so you are absolutely positive that everything you are asking for is in this contract.


This would probably be a good idea given how things have gone. Can't hurt to get things in writing so there are no more surprises! 

I agree with OP, there's a puppy here who is going to need a home, regardless if there's clearances or not. Someone has to love it in the end  That being said, it's saddening that the breeder is charging you a price that I feel should only be charged for puppies who come with a check in every box, so to speak. It kind of leaves me wondering if she cares about the puppies like you do, or is just trying to make a dollar. 

I also question the soundness of the vets advice on the 6 weeks vs. 8 weeks. I think many puppies can get by leaving their moms at 6 weeks, but it's certainly not the ideal. We have a rescue kitty who came to us at 5 weeks (I tell myself this, but it was likely earlier than that) it was really hard at first, but she's fine now. It was definitely too soon. Pets adapt. If there's an option to stay longer, it's always the right choice. You're doing the right thing by asking the pup to stay the extra two weeks with mom. 

I think you'll do the right thing... like I said before, do what feels right. Follow your heart, and you'll have many happy years with the right puppy for you and your family.

My honest two cents: I feel this breeder is not doing her job. Breeding dogs is a job. Like all jobs, there's a job description - ensure mom and dad are healthy, well cared for, have clearances, etc. Then ensure the puppies are well cared for and have the best possible upbringing and are ready to go in to the real world by the time they leave. The final part to the job is being a sales person. Unfortunately, I think she's a very good sales person and is dishonestly representing her product as something it's not. Many of the things she's doing 'right' now, have been at your request because you're diligently doing your job as a prospective puppy owner. I don't disagree with you taking this puppy. People adopt dogs from shelters every day without knowing their medical history. I do disagree with her charging you for him. The most she should be charging is $200 for the supplies she's needed along the way.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

AngieAvenue said:


> You're doing the right thing by asking the pup to stay the extra two weeks with mom.


Provided they're actually receiving meaningful socialization. Sitting in a pen in the kitchen is not the same socialization & stimulation that a reputable breeder provides.



AngieAvenue said:


> People adopt dogs from shelters every day without knowing their medical history.


Very true, but they're not lining the pockets of "greeders" encouraging them to continue their bad practices at the expense of the dogs being bred & the pups being born. When it's easy to peddle the pups, there is absolutely no reason to improve their "business model". People wonder why BYBs and Puppy Mills continue to exist--this case serves as a perfect example.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

Originally Posted by *AngieAvenue*  
_You're doing the right thing by asking the pup to stay the extra two weeks with mom. _
SheetsSM wroterovided they're actually receiving meaningful socialization. Sitting in a pen in the kitchen is not the same socialization & stimulation that a reputable breeder provides.

I think you both have said something really important. During the 5 to 8 weeks the puppies learn a lot from each other. Mom is still teaching but she isn't interacting as much as the pups are spending much more time together. If this breeder is sending the other puppies off to their new homes at 6 weeks who will your puppy be learning from/with? This is a very important part of their developement. During that time the breeder should be doing some individual socialization with each pup but the bulk of learning is between siblings. 

I think you should think long and hard on this. Leaving the pup there without the learning between siblings, some time with mom and some individual time being socialized through the breeder will actually be more harmful than you taking the pup and working extra time to do those things the best you can yourself.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Solinvictus makes the best points. Depending on the dam, she may be long done with the pups. My Cookie was never done with her pups. But some of my girls are done when the pups are five weeks. I keep them until eight weeks.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

SheetsSM said:


> Provided they're actually receiving meaningful socialization. Sitting in a pen in the kitchen is not the same socialization & stimulation that a reputable breeder provides.
> 
> 
> Very true, but they're not lining the pockets of "greeders" encouraging them to continue their bad practices at the expense of the dogs being bred & the pups being born. When it's easy to peddle the pups, there is absolutely no reason to improve their "business model". People wonder why BYBs and Puppy Mills continue to exist--this case serves as a perfect example.


Great post -- the whole thing....


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## KGolden13 (Apr 3, 2013)

Barkr said:


> I am glad that you have settled this, and maybe you have rocked this woman's world enough to have her change the way she does things. I doubt clearances will be a top priority for her but maybe consider keeping the pups with mom & siblings longer. Reading this thread has definitely educated some of us.
> 
> Now, so you are going to have a puppy, Hooray !!!! We will need a name and lots of pic's . Congratulations!


Thank you! His name is Max! I will post pics as soon as I get him I promise!! I have read everyone's post and appreciate all of the advice.

My decision was made based on the fact that this puppy needs a good home, regardless of what may happen down the line. As far as the money maybe i am paying too much considering the circumstances but at this point this baby needs a home and I want to be the family he will spend the rest of his life with. One thing that I am going to do based on what y'all have told me is I will check and see if any more of the litter will be staying after 6 weeks. I do not want to leave him by himself without his litter mates.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

KGolden13 said:


> Thank you! His name is Max! I will post pics as soon as I get him I promise!! I have read everyone's post and appreciate all of the advice.
> 
> My decision was made based on the fact that this puppy needs a good home, regardless of what may happen down the line. As far as the money maybe i am paying too much considering the circumstances but at this point this baby needs a home and I want to be the family he will spend the rest of his life with. One thing that I am going to do based on what y'all have told me is I will check and see if any more of the litter will be staying after 6 weeks. I do not want to leave him by himself without his litter mates.
> 
> ...


He is a lucky puppy. You should start looking now for puppy play groups to join so when you get him you will have a group to get him in so he gets more socialization with puppies, and also try to find some very tolerant adult dogs to spend time with.


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## GoldenCamper (Dec 21, 2009)

Have no idea why this "breeder" thinks sending pups home at 6 weeks is a fine idea. I do wish you well with your new joy though.


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## AngieAvenue (Mar 17, 2013)

He is a lucky puppy to have you 

I would swoop up an insurance plan to be safe, and get socializing with other pups! Won't be long now and your boy will be home!


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Um, yes, insurance sure would be a good idea.


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## KGolden13 (Apr 3, 2013)

Oh I am definitely getting insurance! 


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## CITIgolden (Mar 9, 2013)

I rescued my dog when he was 4wks old, due to a set of unfortunate circumstances there was not much choice as he was in a kill shelter...

Anyway, he's a smaller breed dog but a mix of terriers, cattle dog and I'd say he should be more nippy than golden was when he was his age. I have to say, while he does mouth a lot and nips when excited, it's definitely possible to teach them not to do it. I also didn't crate him when he grew a little bigger and haven't had any issues with him chewing things he's not supposed to. As a matter of fact he's much more attached to me than my golden and has learned really fast what he can or can't do. I think having an older dog helped as well. 

I'd be more concerned about health if both parents were carriers of disease alleles, particularly recessive genes, if that is the case the puppy only has a higher probability to be sick, depending on a disease you could actually calculate the probability within the margin of error. As most of genetic diseases are inherited through a combination of multiple affected chromosomes, in some instances over 10, you would really need to know much much more about the pup than its parents to come anywhere close to figuring it out, so the test itself needs to be taken with a "chunk of salt" - the same way the fact that heart disease in human parents does not immediately translate into heart disease with children.

It's quite possible for 2 "normal" dog parents to develop a sick pup with some genetic disease - so in all honesty the best you can do is ensure the puppy is healthy when you get it. The only sure way of knowing if it may develop some genetic disease would be to run genetic screening on the puppy itself, but those tests aren't around yet...and again aren't 100% accurate. 

Long story short, enjoy your new dog and don't live in fear about something you can't affect. Most you can do is provide the best care raising the dog and the mere fact you are asking here indicates you will be a great puppy parent. 

In terms of insurance, it's a good idea usually for general reasons as vet care is expensive - genetic diseases shouldn't be your primary concern, but make sure genetic conditions are not excluded before you buy. Some very popular insurance policies exclude most genetic diseases. 

Congratulations!


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

CITIgolden said:


> It's quite possible for 2 "normal" dog parents to develop a sick pup with some genetic disease - so in all honesty the best you can do is ensure the puppy is healthy when you get it. The only sure way of knowing if it may develop some genetic disease would be to run genetic screening on the puppy itself, but those tests aren't around yet...and again aren't 100% accurate.


CITIgolden:
Is that really the best you believe one can do? We don't have perfect, specific genetic tests.... so just close your eyes to the screening that is available and hope for the best? I'm sorry, but we can do much better than that and the research proves it! I hope for the day better testing exists but in the meantime I support breeders who are doing everything within their power to breed away from these debilitating and deadly disorders by researching their lines and screening their breeding dogs. Or I rescue. There is a trade off there... losing predictability but gaining in other less tangible ways. I commend you on rescuing your pup from a bad situation but that does not excuse breeders from their responsibility to both their dogs and their puppy buyers. In fact, situations like that prove all the more why it is important to not support those who do not do everything to provide healthy puppies to safe, permanent homes!

KGoldens:
None of that is said to undermine or insult your decision. I fully understand that you have been too emotionally invested in this puppy for too long for this to be so black and white. I do wish you would clarify though whether the sire and dam of this litter are siblings.... if they are , I just want you to fully realize the increased risks this puppy may face. I'm asking only out of concern for you and your family. I wish you nothing but the best with your pup!

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## CITIgolden (Mar 9, 2013)

I agree we should support the breeders who try their best to screen for these diseases, but when the gene pool of dogs that actually get to breed has been reduced to less than 5%, it's a situation in which one steals from Peter to pay Paul. It would be much more responsible if the breeders and owners didn't put 2-3 visible traits ahead of the genetic diversity...this isn't such a black and white issue and we all participate and then try to feel a bit better by selecting dogs that have passed a few flawed genetic tests with less than 50% accuracy. Not advocating turning away the head but merely trying to point out to a new owner that too much worrying it his case won't help if she has decided to go forward with the puppy and has some reasonable reassurances from her vet st al.

Perhaps this breeder isn't responsible, we don't know, but at the same time so are many breeders who pick "champion" bloodlines and breed closely related dogs (albeit unknowingly and without bad intentions). That's however a debate for another thread.

Your points about dogs being siblings are fully valid and I think everyone here is commenting because we care.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

CITIgolden said:


> I agree we should support the breeders who try their best to screen for these diseases, but when the gene pool of dogs that actually get to breed has been reduced to less than 5%, it's a situation in which one steals from Peter to pay Paul. It would be much more responsible if the breeders and owners didn't put 2-3 visible traits ahead of the genetic diversity...this isn't such a black and white issue and we all participate and then try to feel a bit better by selecting dogs that have passed a few flawed genetic tests with less than 50% accuracy. Not advocating turning away the head but merely trying to point out to a new owner that too much worrying it his case won't help if she has decided to go forward with the puppy and has some reasonable reassurances from her vet st al.
> 
> Perhaps this breeder isn't responsible, we don't know, but at the same time so are many breeders who pick "champion" bloodlines and breed closely related dogs (albeit unknowingly and without bad intentions). That's however a debate for another thread.
> 
> Your points about dogs being siblings are fully valid and I think everyone here is commenting because we care.


I would love to see the sources where it proves that the breeding pool is less than 5% (although when one takes into account the massive number of goldens getting churned out of puppy mills, I can imagine that skews some things.) and that our currently available screening tests/clearances (they are not genetic tests... though there are genetic tests for some things like PRA) are less than 50% accurate. These are very specific numbers so I'm assuming they came from some sort of scientific research.... would really like the chance to read them. I always welcome the chance to learn something new.

Sorry if my statement in any way suggested that I didn't think others cared. I actually just didn't want the OP to think that I was picking on her or harping on an issue she may not feel completely comfortable addressing for any other reason than to look out for her.

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## KGolden13 (Apr 3, 2013)

Jersey's Mom said:


> CITIgolden:
> Is that really the best you believe one can do? We don't have perfect, specific genetic tests.... so just close your eyes to the screening that is available and hope for the best? I'm sorry, but we can do much better than that and the research proves it! I hope for the day better testing exists but in the meantime I support breeders who are doing everything within their power to breed away from these debilitating and deadly disorders by researching their lines and screening their breeding dogs. Or I rescue. There is a trade off there... losing predictability but gaining in other less tangible ways. I commend you on rescuing your pup from a bad situation but that does not excuse breeders from their responsibility to both their dogs and their puppy buyers. In fact, situations like that prove all the more why it is important to not support those who do not do everything to provide healthy puppies to safe, permanent homes!
> 
> KGoldens:
> ...


No I'm not offended at all and absolutely respect and know how important it is to do health screenings-- especially after learning all of the things that everyone here has made me aware of. Just in my particular situation I felt that this was the best decision for me. And please know I am so appreciative of all of the advice.

I apologize for not clarifying about mom and dad. They are not siblings. They were bought from 2 separate breeders. This breeder owns 6 Goldens. She breeds 3 (1 male is put of state) and the other 3 are pets only. One of her Goldens came from a litter that was inbred and she bought him because nobody else would but does not breed him of course. She is extremely picky about that -- I'm assuming because she experienced it first hand. I also want to note ( and I apologize if my terminology is off) that she had the dads sperm placed in the mom instead of the natural way. I think she said it was to keep jasmine, the mom, physically okay. I could be completely butchering the technical terms. 

I know that you guys care and this is exactly what I want to hear. I like to know when I may be making the wrong decision or what I could be doing better. So thank you and thank everyone!


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## CITIgolden (Mar 9, 2013)

Well I actually do genetic research and could send you thousands of articles that point to that trend, but would recommend watching the BBC documentary Pedigree Dogs Exposed among others. If you're interested in the 5% comment, google "popular-sire syndrome" - for our beloved goldens this trend exploded in the 1970s for example when 3 famous sires today have by rough estimates 300,000 descendants...again through time obviously. Not to go into the genetics too much but the odds of a disease spreading through generations are depressingly high when 3 dogs are used (that's just one example that's been we'll documented). For more info on golden inbreeding and inbreeding in general you can check out Population Structure and Inbreeding From Pedigree Analysis of Purebred Dogs 

As for the genetic screening 1 the reason I refer to it genetic screening is that the ultimate goal is fo screen for genetic disease in fact - we believe that running tests on a 3-4-5yo dam and/or sire for hip dysphasia will somehow be the best indicator for the disease. Basic probability theory shows that not to be the case. Hip dysp.for example is carried on up to 12 chromosomes, so I'm conservatively saying less than 50% accuracy when you only test 2 parents even if they show no dysphasia, if you do the math it's actually much less than that and thus the comment that 2 "normal" dogs can easily have a dysplatic offspring and as a matter of fact a dysplatic dog can have healthy offspring....the onset of dysphasia while generally observed early can be latent.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

CITI: I started a new thread so as not to hijack this one because I think this could be a really interesting and informative combo. It is in this section of the forum and called "Genetic diversity and clearances... A discussion" or something very close to that. Sorry, I can't post a link to it from my tablet!

KGoldens: thanks for clarifying. I figured it was a misunderstanding but just wanted to make sure. Did you, then, speak to both of those breeders and get info on all four grandparents? You know what, that's just curiosity talking.... You don't have to answer. You made your decision, you have your reasons, and I wish you many many happy and healthy years with your puppy! Can't wait to see pictures!

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## KatieBlue'sMidnightSky (Feb 22, 2011)

Hi KGolden13~

Reading through all the posts, the only thing I might recommend at this time is to ask the breeder to put a Health Guarantee in the contract that covers: Heart, Eye, & Hips. In the event the pup is diagnosed with any genetic condition relating to these parts, you get your money back in full. Something like that. See if she is will to stand behind her lack of clearances. Just a thought.

No matter what, for your sake and the pups, I hope he is healthy and lives a long happy life with you!


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## mygunner (Feb 4, 2010)

Please *KGolden13 send me a pm I have just had a horrific experience with a breeder in Louisiana and I need to find out if it is the same woman.
*


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

KGolden13 can't wait to see more photos of your beautiful puppy! And Congrats!


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## amy22 (May 11, 2008)

I can't wait to see more pictures too.


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## KGolden13 (Apr 3, 2013)

*Update on Waylon - Yes I changed his name *

Sorry for the late update! I've been super busy with the new baby! He just completed his first puppy class and is absolutely exceptional! He just finished his second set of shots and the Dr.'s office can't get enough of him.

He is learning so fast. He has not messed up the kennel and is ringing the bell to go outside. He loves his kennel which is a pleasant surprise for me. We are working on biting and jumping. I am so excited you guys and can't be more happy with my decision. I have posted pics below! And thanks again for all of the help and advice! Enjoy

Oh P.S. I changed his name to Waylon. I was listening to an old country CD and Waylon seemed like the perfect fit!


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## AngieAvenue (Mar 17, 2013)

Ahh! What a precious little man! Too cute


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## Kayla (Apr 28, 2013)

I'm getting my dog bailey at 6 weeks, before her I had a dog named Sadie which I got at 6 weeks old, NEVER had a problem with her either. She was good as could be but I worked with her constantly 


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## KGolden13 (Apr 3, 2013)

Thanks! And sorry I have no idea how to make these pics any smaller! 

But he doing wonderful. The main problems I am having at this point is the puppy nipping, leash biting, and jumping. But I am going to make another post about that to get some tips because I desperately need them. I am asking my trainer but the advice she is giving works maybe once or twice but then he continues to think i'm just playing.


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## KGolden13 (Apr 3, 2013)

Kayla said:


> I'm getting my dog bailey at 6 weeks, before her I had a dog named Sadie which I got at 6 weeks old, NEVER had a problem with her either. She was good as could be but I worked with her constantly
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App



Thanks Kayla! Yes as you can see there was a lot of feedback on the issue and it was a tough call for me. But I knew that he was going to go to a family at some point and I wanted to be that family. I did wait a little longer to get him though based on what everyone told me  But yes he is doing really good so far! For an almost 10 week old pup, I couldn't be happier!


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## mygunner (Feb 4, 2010)

He is so gorgeous!!!!! With the nipping all I ever had to do was make a little screech noise something just to startle him and he will get it. They are so smart!


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## amy22 (May 11, 2008)

Was he is so cute! Glad he is yours!!


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