# What people think a conformation coat is



## gr56 (May 11, 2019)

So I was reading through the GRCA illustrated guide and was very interesting read about the coat. PS I’ve looked over this guide a couple times and there is always something new that I over looked . So much info
But anyways what I thought was intresting is people keep going on about confirmation coat and a field coat. But while reading the breed guide it almost seem the confirmation and field are to viewed as one in the same. The coat should be practical to the function of the intended breed . It clearly states feathering should not be impractical to function. Idk what are your thoughts?


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

Hi there! 

I'm not sure if autocorrect is getting you, but I wanted to let you know that when talking about anatomy etc, we spell it conformation. 

I had a very similar question not too long ago and it was answered in great detail! I believe it is in the Golden Retriever Conformation Showing subforum. 

For coat, I do think that a functional coat can be seen in both field and show dogs. I do think some dogs have excessive coat or coat of incorrect quality. With my own dog, I feel he has too much feathering on his forelegs and trousers, as well as along his underside. The texture of his coat is correct and it is dense and resistant.


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## gr56 (May 11, 2019)

Tagrenine said:


> Hi there!
> 
> I'm not sure if autocorrect is getting you, but I wanted to let you know that when talking about anatomy etc, we spell it conformation.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the heads up I’ll take a look into the forum for more detailed threads.


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

Type and the "Generic Show Dog"


Wow that is a good point! I guess when they're uncooperative you have to just ride it out and hope it's better next time. Are there ever penalties for unruly or disruptive behavior, maybe in young dogs? Or do judges tend to be forgiving? Here’s a humble brag story for you on this subject: Last...




www.goldenretrieverforum.com





Here is where it starts! Mine had to do with mostly with texture


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## gr56 (May 11, 2019)

Tagrenine said:


> Type and the "Generic Show Dog"
> 
> 
> Wow that is a good point! I guess when they're uncooperative you have to just ride it out and hope it's better next time. Are there ever penalties for unruly or disruptive behavior, maybe in young dogs? Or do judges tend to be forgiving? Here’s a humble brag story for you on this subject: Last...
> ...


The


Tagrenine said:


> Type and the "Generic Show Dog"
> 
> 
> Wow that is a good point! I guess when they're uncooperative you have to just ride it out and hope it's better next time. Are there ever penalties for unruly or disruptive behavior, maybe in young dogs? Or do judges tend to be forgiving? Here’s a humble brag story for you on this subject: Last...
> ...


oh man that open coat on that husky in the thread is crazy thanks for link me to that thread. I love Megoras picture examples.


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## Hildae (Aug 15, 2012)

A confusion I've had is that the typical "conformation" golden is quite impractical for the activities a golden is supposed to be bred for. "Field" goldens, to me, are the technical "ideal." The conformation coats are often super excessive (pretty, but not practical in a hunting dog) and I'm told most of them have little to no hunting instinct. I do not understand why they are breeding a golden that is so far from it's actual purpose? Don't get me wrong, they are great dogs. (I have 2, one "conformation" type, one "field" type) They are beautiful when well groomed, and they are loving companions, but it's almost like there are 2 different golden retrievers out there now and only one is retaining the original intended characteristics.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Many field goldens also have incorrect coats...too thin to properly insulate the dog in cold water and weather. Now many of their owners will say it's super easy to take care of...which it is...but it is inadequate and incorrect for their ORIGINAL, TRUE purpose which was an upland and waterfowl hunter in Scotland. They shouldn't shiver when it hits 50 degrees!
Having said that, you are right, many show goldens have just entirely too much coat. It is pointless and harmful in the field. They breed it because it looks pretty.
There are MANY different styles of goldens, not just two


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I think one thing that doesn't help either way is neutering/spaying your dogs and then the other thing is not grooming your dogs at all. 

This is not a breed where you "should" only bathe/groom once a year. Especially if the dog has been spayed or neutered. 

Those 2 factors - you can't blame on the dog's ancestry or the breeder. 

If you want a dog whose primary source of a bath is getting hosed off after getting out of pond and who never needs to be brushed... this is not the breed for you.


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## gr56 (May 11, 2019)

Megora said:


> I think one thing that doesn't help either way is neutering/spaying your dogs and then the other thing is not grooming your dogs at all.
> 
> This is not a breed where you "should" only bathe/groom once a year. Especially if the dog has been spayed or neutered.
> 
> ...


I’m curious how does the coat differ/vary once spay/neutering occur?
I know after a breeding a dam blows her coat.
Do spay/neutered GR coats get thicker and lanky?


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## Hildae (Aug 15, 2012)

gr56 said:


> I’m curious how does the coat differ/vary once spay/neutering occur?
> I know after a breeding a dam blows her coat.
> Do spay/neutered GR coats get thicker and lanky?


I know you didn't ask me specifically but there is a thing called "spay coat" that makes them get kind of weirdly wooly and the undercoat overgrows the top coat.


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## gr56 (May 11, 2019)

Hildae said:


> I know you didn't ask me specifically but there is a thing called "spay coat" that makes them get kind of weirdly wooly and the undercoat overgrows the top coat.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

That's not a Golden, but boy- that'd be fun to clean up!


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## Emmdenn (Jun 5, 2018)

I also think cost is somewhat dependent on genetics and not just spayed/neutered or intact. My boy has a correct coat, dense, thick, moderate furnishings etc and he’s neutered now. I haven’t noticed a difference since he was intact, but I think a major factor is that he eats quality kibble and raw food, he’s bathed and blow dried every 2ish weeks and brushed every day. I’m sure some spay coats would look leaps and bounds better if they were groomed consistently all ate a high quality diet. My girl is still a puppy and growing in her coat, but she had more coat than my boy did as a young puppy so I’m expecting her to have more coat in general. Especially furnishings are already longer than my boy’s at her age.

We hike through brush etc. all the time and I can say that the amount of coat that both of my dogs have seems to be functional. The don’t get caught up in burrs, dirt just falls off of them...and they don’t get cold when deciding to play around in the river when it’s 30° outside 😂.


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

My experience with spay coat - one of my dogs was spayed at 4. Prior to the spay, she maybe got a bath once a year, sometimes got brushed, but overall, her coat was healthy, not matted, and very easy maintenance. After spay, it became a disaster. We started finding mats on her thighs after a few months and found that if we didn't keep up with coat care, the mats returned quickly. She went from having a very low maintenance coat, to a terrible coat that requires much more maintenance than would be preferred in the breed. I have two nonspayed relatives and both of the have wonderful, low maintenance coats.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Prism Goldens said:


> That's not a Golden, but boy- that'd be fun to clean up!


I groomed my mom’s spayed rough collie this past summer... I’m not sure I really need to say much more than that. 😳😳😳


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

ArkansasGold said:


> I groomed my mom’s spayed rough collie this past summer... I’m not sure I really need to say much more than that. 😳😳😳


I wish there was a laugh react 🤣


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

I think it’s good to note that show dog coats are treated MUCH differently than pets and field dogs. They are bathed weekly with fancy shampoos, their feathering is combed out with leave-in conditioner at least once week, they eat super high quality food, and many are on coat supplements. Put the same dog in a pet home getting bathed every six weeks with no supplements and you will have a different coat.

I’m not saying that they aren’t sometimes bred to have excessive coats, trust me, I see excessive coats in the ring, but good coat care makes a huge difference in amount and quality of a dog’s coat.


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

ArkansasGold said:


> I think it’s good to note that show dog coats are treated MUCH differently than pets and field dogs. They are bathed weekly with fancy shampoos, their feathering is combed out with leave-in conditioner at least once week, they eat super high quality food, and many are on coat supplements. Put the same dog in a pet home getting bathed every six weeks with no supplements and you will have a different coat.
> 
> I’m not saying that they aren’t sometimes bred to have excessive coats, trust me, I see excessive coats in the ring, but good coat care makes a huge difference in amount and quality of a dog’s coat.


I'm straddling the line. Lana hasn't shown since the 2019 National. Prep for show season includes a weekly (or every two weeks if I'm being lazy) bathe and blow out. No conditioner. She eats Pro-Plan 30/20 and while she is on supplements (as are all my dogs) none of them are coat supplements (we tried when she was like a year old and it just wasn't doing anything for her). Currently, she hasn't had a bath in like 6 weeks and her coat is the same (more texture but that's cause it's dirty rn). Idk if she would be considered as having "excessive coat" cause to my eye she is moderate but I'm untrained in many things and still learning. If anyone is interested, I can take stacked photos before her next bath and after. She does look "fluffier" after a bath and blow out but that's gone by the next morning.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Brave said:


> I'm straddling the line. Lana hasn't shown since the 2019 National. Prep for show season includes a weekly (or every two weeks if I'm being lazy) bathe and blow out. No conditioner. She eats Pro-Plan 30/20 and while she is on supplements (as are all my dogs) none of them are coat supplements (we tried when she was like a year old and it just wasn't doing anything for her). Currently, she hasn't had a bath in like 6 weeks and her coat is the same (more texture but that's cause it's dirty rn). Idk if she would be considered as having "excessive coat" cause to my eye she is moderate but I'm untrained in many things and still learning. If anyone is interested, I can take stacked photos before her next bath and after. She does look "fluffier" after a bath and blow out but that's gone by the next morning.


I was more so talking about dogs that are being campaigned by pros, but I can tell a pretty big difference in the quality, quantity, and length of Eevee's coat when she gets weekly baths. She had a MAJOR coat blow during Christmas and is naked as a jaybird now and also didn't get a bath for six weeks. She also eats Pro Plan 30/20. I actually cut her food down about half a cup per day once she moved into Open at 18 months so she wouldn't be as rolly, and by her last show in November, her coat quality wasn't as good as it was prior to that. I mean, we were nitpicking a bit, but still. The amount of food makes a difference in her coat. 

I don't have her on any supplements right now, but I am thinking about putting her on coat supplement this winter to get her ready to actually win in Open come April. She'll be over 2 by then and shouldn't be the youngest bitch in Open anymore. 

I personally think she has a very correct coat: her top coat wraps her like a jacket and she has the appropriate amount of feathering in various places when she's in full coat. But to keep that correct coat in show shape takes a lot of work. It's hard showing a Golden.


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## gr56 (May 11, 2019)

Brave said:


> I'm straddling the line. Lana hasn't shown since the 2019 National. Prep for show season includes a weekly (or every two weeks if I'm being lazy) bathe and blow out. No conditioner. She eats Pro-Plan 30/20 and while she is on supplements (as are all my dogs) none of them are coat supplements (we tried when she was like a year old and it just wasn't doing anything for her). Currently, she hasn't had a bath in like 6 weeks and her coat is the same (more texture but that's cause it's dirty rn). Idk if she would be considered as having "excessive coat" cause to my eye she is moderate but I'm untrained in many things and still learning. If anyone is interested, I can take stacked photos before her next bath and after. She does look "fluffier" after a bath and blow out but that's gone by the next morning.


Yes post photos I would love to see!


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

Show dogs certainly get the best of coat care. And those with a correct coat will have maintain a correct coat without much care - it just looks best when its kept on top of. 

Now, working dogs, and ones I'm most familiar with, spend 90% of their life outside, either working or in an outdoor kennel. The ranchers and shepherds do NOT want a coat that requires excessive care to keep decent. They are not going to wash and blow the dogs out even once a month. The coat should stay decent on decent food and not get easily matted, after swimming, working in burrs and talls grasses. Nowadays, a lot of american stock dogs have short coats and in the UK and other parts of europe, top dogs are starting to have short coats. A few years ago, a dog sold at a stock auction for 17k in the US and in this past Feb a smooth coated BC from Europe was bought by an American rancher for 18, 900 pounds, or 25k USD. Both of these dogs have a MUCH shorter coat than you would ever see in the show ring (though the standard allows it!) 

I got off on a tangent, but the whole point was that a working coat should be functional and should not need excessive maintenance to stay good. Yes our Goldens have a lot of coat, but a correct coat will not mat easily and will still stay nice without all the coat care. But to win in the show ring, a lot of coat care is needed to win.


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## gr56 (May 11, 2019)

Tagrenine said:


> Show dogs certainly get the best of coat care. And those with a correct coat will have maintain a correct coat without much care - it just looks best when its kept on top of.
> 
> Now, working dogs, and ones I'm most familiar with, spend 90% of their life outside, either working or in an outdoor kennel. The ranchers and shepherds do NOT want a coat that requires excessive care to keep decent. They are not going to wash and blow the dogs out even once a month. The coat should stay decent on decent food and not get easily matted, after swimming, working in burrs and talls grasses. Nowadays, a lot of american stock dogs have short coats and in the UK and other parts of europe, top dogs are starting to have short coats. A few years ago, a dog sold at a stock auction for 17k in the US and in this past Feb a smooth coated BC from Europe was bought by an American rancher for 18, 900 pounds, or 25k USD. Both of these dogs have a MUCH shorter coat than you would ever see in the show ring (though the standard allows it!)
> 
> I got off on a tangent, but the whole point was that a working coat should be functional and should not need excessive maintenance to stay good. Yes our Goldens have a lot of coat, but a correct coat will not mat easily and will still stay nice without all the coat care. But to win in the show ring, a lot of coat care is needed to win.


I would love it if someone whispered in a judges ear “Jack hasn’t been to the groomers in 3 months look how that coats holdin up ” lol
Like a sub category of most resilient coat


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Tagrenine said:


> But to win in the show ring, a lot of coat care is needed to win.


This. It takes a lot of work to keep her coat show ready, but there wasn't anything wrong with it when she didn't get a bath for 6 weeks like a normal dog. It would function properly in the field whether she was bathed every 4 months (which is gross for a house dog, sorry not sorry lol) or once a week, but you just don't get the same luster (because dirt) and volume if you don't bathe and blow dry at least every two weeks, if not weekly. 



gr56 said:


> I would love it if someone whispered in a judges ear “Jack hasn’t been to the groomers in 3 months look how that coats holdin up ” lol
> Like a sub category of most resilient coat


The judge probably wouldn't put their hands on the dog. LOL Even one of the most notoriously coat picky breeder judges still wants a clean dog presented to him. He said on Pure Dog Talk once that no, he doesn't want a dog that was bathed and blown out right before going into the ring, but he does still want a clean dog - meaning they were bathed a day or two ahead of time. 

The thing about campaigned dogs is that they are showing every weekend, so they are bathed weekly for that purpose. One interesting thing during these COVID times is that shows aren't allowing blow drying indoors, so most people are grooming the day before and then just touching up cowlicks or crate marks the day of. You aren't seeing as many dogs with coats blown open because of that, although there is no rule against using a generator and grooming outside. Thankfully, Eevee doesn't really need much during multiday shows: bath, trim and blow dry the day before, then just touchups day of.


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

gr56 said:


> I would love it if someone whispered in a judges ear “Jack hasn’t been to the groomers in 3 months look how that coats holdin up ” lol
> Like a sub category of most resilient coat


LOL. When I showed 4H they asked me questions like that with sheep/horses. But the GRCA requests that exhibitors not overgroom (more details on the website, I know overgroom is vague lol) their dogs and the AKC doesn’t allow for products in the coat. I think a good Golden with good coat should be clean and exhibited well for the show ring, but shouldn’t require sculpting, and should otherwise be a relatively easy to maintain coat.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Tagrenine said:


> LOL. When I showed 4H they asked me questions like that with sheep/horses. But the GRCA requests that exhibitors not overgroom (more details on the website, I know overgroom is vague lol) their dogs and the AKC doesn’t allow for products in the coat. I think a good Golden with good coat should be clean and exhibited well for the show ring, but shouldn’t require sculpting, and should otherwise be a relatively easy to maintain coat.


They absolutely do not enforce the no products thing. LOL


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## Otter (Feb 23, 2011)

gr56 said:


> I’m curious how does the coat differ/vary once spay/neutering occur?
> I know after a breeding a dam blows her coat.
> Do spay/neutered GR coats get thicker and lanky?


The coat goes *POOF*! That's the only way I can describe. 
Pebbles had a beautiful coat. She had a litter of puppies then was lap spayed around 4 or 5 years old. Then her coat went poof. It just grows and grows. Grows out crazy too. She looks like a wooly mammoth and I bath and groom her pretty frequently. It's hard to keep up with. When I dry her (forced air) I try really hard to straighten her fur but it never works.

Our Sandy (a Pebbles puppy) was lap spayed last week. I'm curious to see how it changes over the next year or so.


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

ArkansasGold said:


> They absolutely do not enforce the no products thing. LOL


Ive heard multiple people say that LOL and it’s something that comes up on some of the podcasts I listen to. All I know is that the AKC says it, but doesn’t care


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## gr56 (May 11, 2019)

Tagrenine said:


> Ive heard multiple people say that LOL and it’s something that comes up on some of the podcasts I listen to. All I know is that the AKC says it, but doesn’t care


It’s like a man with a immaculate 5 o’clock shadow. It appears effortless. But we all know the upkeep to maintain that facade. AKCs version of eye wide shut


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Sometimes.... I think.... the people complaining about products and overgrooming.... they do MORE themselves than the people they are complaining about. My opinion after spending a lot of time in the grooming section with my dogs the last 8 years, give or take. I've seen who grooms how and it's interesting to see the differences between some folks and others.

And anyone talking about conformation and critiquing stuff... I think they should first put their time into showing their own dogs. Ditto the other way around - as far as people talking about field, people talking about obedience, etc.


Seen elsewhere somebody describe golden grooming as "intense".... and I sat there contemplating life with a bemused expression - especially since I've seen how other breeds groom their dogs.

Grooming goldens - the first thing to keep in mind is you should never bring a shaggy or unkempt dog to be shown. And you do not groom a dirty dog. That concept means, get the dog in a bathtub, spend about 5 minutes in there (wet, soap up, rinse). Then dog goes up on the grooming table and you spend about 30-45 minutes blow drying. After that, you spend about 20-30 minutes trimming. 

On goldens - we trim the feet (cats paw look). We trim the ears (de-shag). And we trim the tail (no pony tails in the golden ring!). The dogs if show lines typically grow a lot of fur on the neck - which if you left it as is, might make the dog look like he's got no neck. So this is thinned out. 

Prior to showing in normal times - we get the dogs wet or bathed about an hour before showing. We dry them - and the process of blow drying the dogs creates that finished look so we don't have to use product to create the same look.

With AKC and/or show clubs not allowing grooming in the buildings and making it difficult for people to groom the dogs right before showing.... what this probably is causing is more people using PRODUCT in the coats to replace the effects of using a rinse/bodifier and blow drying the dogs. That means more hair spray products. It means more baby powder in the coat. 

Having shown my dogs for a while - I can say that the younger the dog, the less you need to do while grooming. The older the dog - the more you need to do while grooming. 

If I were showing my 2 babies right now (have not had any luck entering shows that don't get cancelled since last Jan) - I guarantee that my routine would be different for each dog. That's based on THEM. 

Jovi - has a lot of bone and is a nice looking boy. His coat, I would use a conditioner the day before and then morning of a show - I would probably do nothing other than packing powder and t&t spray to use on his feet and legs to make them poof. That's it. That's using product on my dog - yes, but compare to 99% of the other breeds - it's nothing. 

Glee - I would do the same except he would get a bath and blow dry the morning of, simply because he's a more immature looking dog than Jovi. 

AKC is probably laughing at the complaints of golden people because we spend less time in the grooming section, actually GROOMING our dogs, than many of the other breeds. Majority of show goldens are bred to have easy to groom coats. The flips and curlies, I don't know too many people would keep those dogs in their breeding if they had a choice.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Regarding special conditioning methods, etc....

What I was taught to do ages ago by members here on the forum no less (pointgold, etc) - never brush a dry dog and clean coat grows.

Conditioner that I really like is thick and thicker protein rinse. I think it smells good and used routinely, I think it makes the coats look good. 

I'm trying a new brushing spray made by pure paws. Supposedly it does the same as the thick and thicker, but it's leave in and intended as a brushing spray. But let's be honest here, you can make your own brushing spray. I've used a homemade one that's got coconut oil in it for years. 

Otherwise though - just routinely taking care of your dogs is all you need to do. 

I guess important to point out that most of us would not go longer than 3-4 days without showering and washing our own hair. And we don't go running outside and roll in the dirty snow.


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

When I think of overgrooming, its not really bathing or spritzing that comes to my mind, but when I can see the feathering along the belly has been trimmed shorter or the ruff and trousers have had a lot of clipping to make the not as "excessive". I try not to use words like excessive and moderate anymore because I've found I don't really have a definition LOL. Or maybe using hair spray to improve a backline.

Working to make the coat look as healthy as possible and cleaning up the ears and paws are more than reasonable. Though I will say that I've seen people clipper the front feet and that surprised me. 

But, everything I say should be taken with a grain of salt because it's all without any actual show experience


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## gr56 (May 11, 2019)

Megora said:


> Sometimes.... I think.... the people complaining about products and overgrooming.... they do MORE themselves than the people they are complaining about. My opinion after spending a lot of time in the grooming section with my dogs the last 8 years, give or take. I've seen who grooms how and it's interesting to see the differences between some folks and others.
> 
> And anyone talking about conformation and critiquing stuff... I think they should first put their time into showing their own dogs. Ditto the other way around - as far as people talking about field, people talking about obedience, etc.
> 
> ...


I always wondered about the neck as sometimes older dogs can look like the have a lion’s main.
Makes sense.
I imagine Chinese cresteds and Xoloitzcuintle just show up and are in the ring 5 minutes later.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

gr56 said:


> I imagine Chinese crescents and Xoloitzcuintle just show up and are in the ring 5 minutes later.


You would _think_.... 

Will never forget a show where I was stuck waiting in line behind somebody with a xolo who was using the only available tub. I was not the only golden person in line WAITING. The woman took at least a half hour washing that dog. It was so stupid. LOL. Every time I thought she was done, she was putting more goop on and massaging that into the coat.

When I finally got up there - I was done in 2 minutes flat.




Tagrenine said:


> When I think of overgrooming, its not really bathing or spritzing that comes to my mind, but when I can see the feathering along the belly has been trimmed shorter or the ruff and trousers have had a lot of clipping to make the not as "excessive". I try not to use words like excessive and moderate anymore because I've found I don't really have a definition LOL. Or maybe using hair spray to improve a backline.


I've heard people whose idea of "grooming" their dogs is brushing them with a slicker.... they feel that bathing and drying the dogs is overgrooming. And they remain convinced that the goldens at shows are full of hairspray. That's because one reason or another, they've been trained to think that's how EVERYONE grooms their dogs for shows.


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## gr56 (May 11, 2019)

Megora said:


> You would _think_....
> 
> Will never forget a show where I was stuck waiting in line behind somebody with a xolo who was using the only available tub. I was not the only golden person in line WAITING. The woman took at least a half hour washing that dog. It was so stupid. LOL. Every time I thought she was done, she was putting more goop on and massaging that into the coat.
> 
> ...


Hahahahahahah omg this story made my night thank you for sharing


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Length and amount of coat is LARGELY genetic. They either have it or they don't. I tend to thing that propensity for unruly "spay coat" is also genetic. None of my past neutered pets had spay coat other than a little frizz on their gaskins easily trimmed off. It's not an automatic assumption that all will go to hell if the dog is neutered.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

K9-Design said:


> Length and amount of coat is LARGELY genetic. They either have it or they don't. I tend to thing that propensity for unruly "spay coat" is also genetic. None of my past neutered pets had spay coat other than a little frizz on their gaskins easily trimmed off. It's not an automatic assumption that all will go to hell if the dog is neutered.


Worst coats I've seen on other people's dogs.... it's always a neutered/spayed dog.

Worst one ever it was a combination of what I said above. The dog's coat was CAKED in oil. She smelled so bad and I didn't want to touch. This was a very sweet golden. I don't know the breeding, but would venture to say she was a distant relative of "Tucker" (ie, came from the same breeder or her mentor).

She was one of those who would come out and flop on your feet in the middle of the road while you were walking past.... and because her coat was so disgusting - I remember holding my breath and not touching her. 

She had a massive skin issue with the oil and stink.

The coat was also decidedly not washing more than once a year - and knowing the type of situation, would say part of that reason is that type of coat acts like a sponge instead of bird feathers. Without a dryer, that's hell. Think coat that would take a couple days to dry completely and typically that length of time results in all kinds of seborrhea problems.

Girlie also had mats all around her ears and neck. I didn't check, but will to bet she also had the same mats around her personal area and trousers and tail.

The whole thing - I think being spayed made matters worse with the coat and skin (all that oil production, etc). But family did not have the ability to bathe her often.

*** I do think that dogs getting up in age still get the same coat issues whether they've been neutered or not. I think neutering early causes the dogs to get that kind of coat and skin situation 5-6 years earlier in life than they would have otherwise.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

On the spay coat thing, Rocket is now 5.5 and has been neutered for 4 years. He still only has a few little wispies of spay coat on the back of his neck and on his back legs, but it's really not a lot and I can either hand pluck or rake it out pretty easily. His coat is NOTHING like my mom's collie. I'm not sure she has any normal undercoat left.... So I think there is probably a genetic component to it as well. I do think that his was worse when he was a little heavier and on a different food. 

I absolutely agree that coats are largely genetic, but I can't help but think how much better and healthier the pet Goldens in my neighborhood would look if they were groomed and bathed more often.

I also agree with you Kate, on older show dogs requiring more grooming than puppies. For one, they generally have more coat _because_ they are older, and two the older they get, the stiffer the competition.


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

I think it might have to do with age at neutering/spay too? 

I had 3 neutered boys, all neutered under 6 mo. They don't have any of the issues my female has, though the Aussie has much less coat than the collies. 

@Maegan I can't count how any times I've been asked who Felix's groomer is or if I would do their dog. I'm definitely not the best, but its amazing what a bath and blow dry can do LOL


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## Emmdenn (Jun 5, 2018)

Granted Denver has only been neutered for 4 months...but his coat receives the same care and conditioning it did when he was intact, where as pet Goldens who you see with awful spay coats are taken to the groomer 2-3x a year and shaved down in the summer a lot of the time. We have friends with two male Goldens. They’re an older couple and their dogs may get an occasional bath and air-dry at home but they are the type to send them to professional groomers every few months and brush them here and there at home. They got both boys neutered in the summer and then had them both shaved. I had to chuckle when I got a text about a month ago saying “why is their fur growing back in all over the place??”

So I think genetics and coat maintenance together will either make or break a coat. And @Megora I have to laugh, I WISH it only took my 2 minutes to get my boy wet and then bathed and all. It takes forever to get him soaked to the skin with my bath attachment! I feel like I’m wetting him down for at least 10 minutes to make sure he’s wetted down to the skin and then another 10 to really scrub and get the shampoo to the skin, and then rinsing until he’s totally free of soap...plus I use conditioner after which I like to let sit for about 5 minutes before rinsing again. It’s a long ordeal! Lol maybe I need to get a higher powered attachment....but I also think that speaks to the function of the true correct and water repellant coat.


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

Yeah, baths here take about 15 to 20 minutes. It does take a while to get Logan completely wet and I assume that's due to his coat being water repellent and the fact we have not such great water pressure in our home. Logan is 13 months old and intact. I've noticed his coat does not mat much at all. Of course, I enjoy brushing him. My husband keeps commenting on how soft he is. 

I wish I had someone who could show groom him. He's stuck with me. I don't trust groomers around here and they aren't cutting on Logan's coat.


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