# Trial/test vs training behavior - picking up your dog



## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

What types of things do you let go at a test/trial that you don't let go in training? Meaning when do you "pick up" your dog?



I've seen a lot of pick ups lately in tests when owners felt the dog was not working at the level they think the dog should be working at. Surprised me a bit to see. I have to give the owners credit for not allowing the behavior to continue and not give in to allowing the behavior in order to get that ribbon. These were mostly on blinds when the dog decided to slip a couple of whistles.



What things would you pick up your dog for?


If you are entered in another event the same day or same weekend, do you scratch your dog from the other competitions also?



Pick up, meaning remove your dog from a test/trial and scratch them from continuing in that competition.


----------



## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

I would pick up my dog if she cheated water on an entry. I would pick up my dog if she slipped two whistles or gave me two cast refusals. A ribbon is not worth months of re-training. But I am a WWW - weekend warrior woman. I do not have the time to train every day and even many of those weekends are group training where I do not even get the chance to work on what I need to work sometimes. 

And yes, I saw a MH test recently where owners or pros picked up the dogs for cheating water and the ones that allowed the dogs to cheat it got called to the third series. It only makes a MH ribbon/title worthless. I was glad I did not enter since there were two contrary marks on a water triple set up.


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I think this is a case of just knowing your own dog.
If it's a behavior you have been really training hard to avoid, I'd pick the dog up immediately.
If it's pretty much the first time you've seen it, I'd just blow it off as a one-of. Meaning, if you have a dog that never (I know, never say never) refuses a cast, and he refuses one in a test, maybe it was just not clear sight/lighting/bad cast, etc. But if you have a dog that you've had trouble with refusing casts in training, and he refuses one in a test, I'd pick him up.
And so on.


----------



## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Pick up for a bad cheat would be the first thing that comes to mind. 
If the dog was regularly out of control and was picked up more than once in a blue moon for out of control on blinds ------- you aren't ready to compete at that level ---- back to training.
Bad training habits aside -- in a test -- you don't give up on your dog until the judges tell you to.


----------



## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

I agree with Barb about knowing your dog. 

Not to mention it really depends on the situation. The difference between a trial and a hunt test is one is against other dogs and one is against a standard. If there are only four dogs left in the last series of a trial and your dog cheats a corner or slips a whistle it probably would not be worth picking the dog up unless, of course, it is something that is a big problem for your dog in training. I can't imagine many people forfeiting a placement for a slipped whistle or a cheated corner in the fourth series, particularly in an all age trial. Work on it in training the following week. On the other hand in a hunt test it wouldn't matter how many dogs were left or not you only have to worry about your dog and what your standard for your dog is.


----------



## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

MillionsofPeaches said:


> I agree with Barb about knowing your dog.
> 
> Not to mention it really depends on the situation. The difference between a trial and a hunt test is one is against other dogs and one is against a standard. If there are only four dogs left in the last series of a trial and your dog cheats a corner or slips a whistle it probably would not be worth picking the dog up unless, of course, it is something that is a big problem for your dog in training. I can't imagine many people forfeiting a placement for a slipped whistle or a cheated corner in the fourth series, particularly in an all age trial. Work on it in training the following week. On the other hand in a hunt test it wouldn't matter how many dogs were left or not you only have to worry about your dog and what your standard for your dog is.


A dog learns bad habits and learns that it will not be corrected in a test regardless if it is a hunt test or field trial. The younger the dog the worse this can be. Actually I have seen one of your own pros pulling a dog for cheating water in the second series of a derby. And he was correct to do so. The dog was really looking good as far as placing, however even he said that a low placement or a Jam did not justify the dog learning bad habits. 

The only time I would allow it was if the dog was at the end of its career, either growing out of the derby or not campaigning the dog due to health or older age. I takes guts to pull a dog instead of committing "suicide by Judge".


----------



## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

I don't understand what you are trying to say? I said I agree with Barb. You have to know your dog. I also said I weigh my options at the trial. I never said NOT to pick up a dog if that is what you feel is the right thing to do. 

I know what my pro does and I wouldn't use him if I didn't trust his decisions so that is a weird moot point to bring up. Second series is not the last series of a trial and a derby is certainly not all age. Furthermore, there are certain dogs that cheat all the time so once again its all about that particular dog. You call yourself a WWW so perhaps its much harder for you to fix a problem you created at a trial than it is for a pro that trains all the time? I don't know? It comes down to the dog, the handler/trainer and the circumstances. 

Generally, I just don't really care what people do with their dogs at a trial, honestly, I mostly worry about myself and my dog. I was just answering Stacey's question from a different perspective. Not trying to cause a problem.


----------



## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Simply emphasizing that a bad habit developed in a test has nothing to do with a hunt test or a field trial. Actually more FT people I spoke with are quicker to pull their dogs than HT people. The same is valid for pros versus "pure" amateurs. I doubt that anyone said you are trying to cause any problems. Frankly I have not thought about it until I saw one of your own pros do it.


----------



## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Everyone has their own goals and history with those goals.
My training partner had to work really hard to get to a place where she could run her Lab in Master. The dog is talented, fast and opinionated. In training, they have good blinds. In tests, Whiskey is a pill.
Just as they were getting were getting it together, Whiskey had a shoulder injury. Between getting diagnosed, stem cell and rehabbing they lost almost 2 years. 
My friend is hyper sensitive to her dog’s gait and if she is off weighting So far so good. They just started running tests again. 
In a test before the injury, if Whiskey blew off more then a couple of whistles she would get pulled in. But now my friend’s attitude is as long as she is sitting on a whistle, I will get her to that blind or the judge will have to tap me on the shoulder and tell me I’m done. 
They ran a test about a month ago. Whiskey was giving into hugh suction and had given her two ugly cast refusals. But my training partner was lighting fast on her whistle and then I watched her dig deep, stare her girl down and pull off a double handed cast that put her back on line. Knowing the history it was so exciting to watch. 
They got a pass that day and She Earned It.


----------



## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Claudia M said:


> Simply emphasizing that a bad habit developed in a test has nothing to do with a hunt test or a field trial. Actually more FT people I spoke with are quicker to pull their dogs than HT people.


Sure. Unless it's the last series, any minor infraction in an all age stake will probably get you dropped so might as well make a point to the dog and pick up than have the judges drop you anyways. In a hunt test, everyone has a chance to get a ribbon so that pressure is nonexistent.


----------



## Edward Lee Nelson (Jan 2, 2017)

Very good subject: I don't think any of us know for sure what we are going to do until it happens, unless its a bad cheat from the start. A pro I think its easier to pick up a dog than a owner. I know its going to hit me this fall whether to pick up or not. It wont be a bad cheat, she is pretty honest. Its banking early on a 200 yrd water mark. She just doesn't have the confidence yet to go the distance. She can go the distance with no problem, she swims back from the mark straight.  BUT she will be straight for 175 yrds and the last 25 or so she will bank and go get the mark. I guess I will find out what I will do when it happens cause I don't know now.


----------



## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

Last series of an Open ... it's a water triple ... I'm the last dog to run, only 3 dogs have completed the test. 
My dog cheats the water a bit on the first retrieve ... I'm ticked off but let him go; 
the mutt cheats the water on the second retrieve ... I'm getting angrier; 
the blasted scoundrel cheats the water on the third retrieve ... I'm really steamed now! 
My dog gets fourth place and 1/2 point ... I'm  

I have run and judged field trials for decades; I have heard pros talk about picking up their dogs if they commit some infraction; it sounds really good. Nonetheless, I've NEVER seen a pro pick up a dog *in an all-age stake* for an infraction ... UNLESS a judge tells the handler to pick up the dog. Quite frankly, I've seen lots of dogs place in the all age stakes after a big time cheat, or a lengthy creep, or annoying vocalization, or .... It's different in the minors, but in the all-age stakes, I just want to finish, so I'll let the judges sort it out.

Full disclosure:
I have seen one extremely talented and successful amateur handler pick up her dog for an infraction on the line ... he scooted up about 1" when the flyer was shot. She said "Thank you judges," told the dog "heel," and walked back to her truck (the dog was the high-roller of high rollers and not a team player, so she was making a point).


----------



## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

K9-Design said:


> Sure. Unless it's the last series, any minor infraction in an all age stake will probably get you dropped so might as well make a point to the dog and pick up than have the judges drop you anyways. In a hunt test, everyone has a chance to get a ribbon so that pressure is nonexistent.


If you care more about the ribbon as opposed to bad habits I guess you go with Suicide by Judge regardless of HT or FT. The pressure should not be the ribbon, it should be what the dogs comes out of it with. A good friend of mine who has been in these games for over 50 years said once, paraphrasing - we train and train them and then the trials un-train them the more we let them get away with stuff.


----------



## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Claudia I don’t think it’s that black and white. I believe my friend made more progress by hanging in and battling it out in the test environment where her dog usually goes rogue on her. Before when she pulled her it was like it was a stalemate. Whiskey didn’t really comply and her handler never got her to the bird.


----------



## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Just an observation, no opinion. At a field trial back in 1982? I saw a pro line his dog for his blind. The dog went out about 30 yards and apparently the pro did not like the line the dog took and immediately called his dog back (angrily I might add) and said "Thank you judges". He seemed angry enough to let's say get rough with his dog although I didn't see it.



Then the whispers started like "Why did he do that", "I can't believe it", etc.


----------



## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

The first time the dog blows you off at a Test or Trial, pick em up.


----------



## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

gdgli said:


> Just an observation, no opinion. At a field trial back in 1982? I saw a pro line his dog for his blind. The dog went out about 30 yards and apparently the pro did not like the line the dog took and immediately called his dog back (angrily I might add) and said "Thank you judges". He seemed angry enough to let's say get rough with his dog although I didn't see it.
> 
> 
> 
> Then the whispers started like "Why did he do that", "I can't believe it", etc.


I have seen that - not the angry part - but the dog already had a PIL marked in his sheet. Seen another pro in a Q, dog picked up nicely the outside birds, 1st series. Middle retired bird was behind a hill, lots of dogs had trouble with it. Instead of handling the dog he picked it up. Another Q, Amateur, the water blind was re-set after the first 5 dogs. This dog did a decent job on the first WB, coming back to do the new WB two whistle refusals and the dog was picked up. 

On another hand I have also seen people allowing the dogs to get the reward when they broke on a flyer. I am completely dumbfounded on that because you are out regardless. And then the same dog over and over again you see breaking. "He never does that in training!" I hear. Well, he learned that he can get away with it at test/trial.


----------



## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

hollyk said:


> Claudia I don’t think it’s that black and white. I believe my friend made more progress by hanging in and battling it out in the test environment where her dog usually goes rogue on her. Before when she pulled her it was like it was a stalemate. Whiskey didn’t really comply and her handler never got her to the bird.


I understand, that is when I take advantage of a big group training/testing atmosphere. I normally go a couple times a year just to see where we are and if I get the "I know better than you" attitude I get to work on it. 

By continually taking the dog off the blind you kill the momentum to the point that the dog will not go. 


I used to nit pick about the initial line too much. A wise man said forget about the initial line, let them go. Let them carry a long line regardless of how off it is. "You train for precision, momentum dies; you train for momentum, precision will come". Glad I listened; now if I can only figure out how to see a little dark golden at long distances in dead grass!


----------



## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

I think the Rex Carr quote is "If you train a young dog for momentum, precision will arrive; if you train for precision, demanding perfection, momentum will depart."
It’s definitely a balancing act teaching blinds.


----------



## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

hollyk said:


> I think the Rex Carr quote is "If you train a young dog for momentum, precision will arrive; if you train for precision, demanding perfection, momentum will depart."
> It’s definitely a balancing act teaching blinds.


Did not know there was an "original quote"; just what a very nice gentleman told me.


----------



## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Picked Riot up yesterday on a water blind. I got 2 cast refusals (scalloping) and said, nope, we're not communicating. Yelled, NO HERE. He came right back, which surprised me. Put his leash on, thanked the judges, and walked back to the van. My mistake was, I lined him on the land blind with no whistles. Which was a grave error. At the time I was excited that he did so well on that land blind. Instead I should have handled him at least once. Next up was the water blind, so he thought he was in charge. I should have whistled before he entered the water. But he's so **** fast. Anyway, live and learn and remember to blow that whistle and not second guess myself. I'm in charge on the blind, not the darn dog. Riot is a fun dog, he's strong willed. But he loves to work and he loves to run blinds. I tell him "dead bird" a couple of times in the holding blind. When he comes out of the blind, he's super ready to go. His marking is wonderful and very consistent. He doesn't seem to mind if it's a field trial or a hunt test, he loves it all.


----------



## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

The two Qs we entered we went out on the water blind. The first she was completely straight and on line (I was convinced she was going to repeat the perfect land blind) until she came out of the water and went into a ditch (had no idea it was there) I panicked when I could not see her. When she finally appeared she was off line to the left. I over cast her to the right straight to the bird planter. The little red dog was against brown grass and could not see her until she came in front of the planter's holding blind. An over took her to the blind but it was a long over. She took the casts given and kept them nicely except those casts did not take her to the blind. The second again it was the WB. Belle was decided she was going into the big water. I gave her a NO, a cast into the small patch of water and got her to the blind. I knew we were out on those two cast refusals but I needed to make sure she knew she cannot show me the paw and she had to do what I asked her to do. It was an expensive training day!  I thanked the judges and wished them a safe trip home.


----------

