# Raw and Pano



## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

Oliver has had a limp for a few months, his right front leg to be exact. We did x-rays, and blood tests. No Lyme, no sign of degenerative joint disease. I'm taking him to a specialist next week. BUT my breeder is very convinced its pano. She hasn't seen him yet, but that is her best guess. She seems to think this is the case because he's raw fed and there's a theory that pano is more likely in dogs who are fed a high % protein diet. 

Now my question is, is there any truth to this? From what I've researched raw is not any more high protein dense than kibble. Its actually less than some around 20% because of the bone, ligaments, MOISTURE is huge, etc. My breeder said if its pano I would have to switch to a low protein kibble. I'll be talking with the vet about this as well. My breeder does not feed raw as she doesn't know enough about it, so I'm hoping her logic is flawed. I have read that the calcium/phosphorus ratios could be contributing to pano (or at least that's more likely?) The boys get roughly 10% bone, but its not exact. I usually go by their poop and what that looks like. They also get a probiotic/joint supplement and fish oil. Have any raw feeders experienced this or have any advice? Are there any supplements I should add/take off to help with this. 

So far the advice I have heard is:
reduce the bone %
add kelp
decrease amount fed in general

Any help would be greatly appreciated! P.S. we tried a rimydal/novox medicine but he had bloody stools on it so I'm not sure what else to do to ease his pain.


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## T&T (Feb 28, 2008)

Lots of info here from an expert in the field
Scroll down to Panosteitis (Pano) HOD, Hypertrophic Osterdystrophy, Pano, OCD, Osteochondritis, Dissecans, Vaccine Reactions | GREATDANELADY.COM

And about nutrition 
PANO in Dogs | PANO Feed Program | GREATDANELADY.COM


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

FWIW: My first 2 goldens had pano and were fed kibble. My 3 golden puppies since, fed primarily raw, have not had pano. So based on my (limited) experience,primarily raw feeding does not cause pano - it should be noted that my pups are also fed rice for additional calories 

I do not know if Towhee had pano as a youngster


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Pano is related to growing too fast, and/or unbalanced nutrition. In rapidly growing puppies getting the nutrient balance correct is very important to prevent growth related problems. 

Going to a regular commercial kibble and closely regulating how much the pup is being fed is likely the most simple approach to dealing with the issue.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I am convinced there is also a hereditary component to pano too. My Kira has had pano since about 6 months old, with flare ups happening off and on. It is known to happen in her sire's pedigree, so I think she got a bit unlucky. We know it is not a joint issue with her as well (we have had her xrayed twice to be sure) so we have just managed it, and eventually it will go away. We have had her on Duralactin, an OTC anti-inflammatory, which has done wonders for her but she still limps a bit on her front legs if she over does it. 

I was recently told that the calories consumed are a bigger factor in pano than the protein levels, but am not sure how accurate that is. I imagine calories and protein levels would be harder to calculate in raw feeding, but I'm sure it can be done if you are dead set on not switching to a kibble.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

In humans, doctors have no idea what causes growing pains except they are hereditary. My husband and I both had them pretty bad as children, and two of my three children have gotten them too.

I notice that my children would get them after very busy, active days. I often wonder if it is they aren't drinking enough water.


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

Thank you all for your replies! I really appreciate them! 

I'll have to talk to Oliver's Sire's owner and see if there's history there. 

I really would like to keep him on his current diet. We had quite the roller coaster ride with kibbles during his first few months at home. Explosive diarrhea and the like. I'm going to reduce the amount of bone the boys are getting to see if that helps. They get roughly 10-15% of bone in their diet, so maybe they'll do better closer to 10%. Oliver has always seems a little more full - weight wise - but its been really hard for me to tell if he could lose a few pounds or if he's just really fluffy . When he's wet he looks so tiny, but I definitely don't think he'd be too skinny if he lost a few pounds so maybe that will help a bit. 

A part of me really doesn't think this is related to too speedy of growth though. Oliver seemed to grow at a nice slow steady pace. Bernie, who's two months older and didn't start getting raw food until he was 5 months shot up like a weed. He blew up into a grown up dog by like 6 months whereas Oliver continued to look like a puppy and grow much slower. He's 10 months old now, 63 pounds, and roughly the size of his parents. That's still a lot of growing in a short time but I guess compared to Bernie, I would have thought Bernie would have the growing issues not Oliver. I don't think he'll be growing much more (Even though his growth plates aren't closed yet so who knows) so I feel like switching his food to control growth won't really help anymore. Something that is interesting to point out is that what seems to bother him is his right front shoulder, and we saw on the X-Ray that that growth plate isn't closed yet. 

I'll have to see if growing pains run in his genes. In the mean time what can I do to help ease his discomfort. I'll look into Duralactin - is that like Rimydal? I'm trying to keep his activity low and keep the boys from wrestling (not easy :doh. Would icing help, or warm compresses? It seems to do better once its warmed up - its worse when its been still for a while. GlycoFlex III was recommended for a joint supplement. I'll have to look into that to see if that'll help. Right now he's on Wholistic Canine Complete. 

Sorry for the long post, thanks again everyone!


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

Regarding the pain- I believe I read about buffered aspirin being used. Bear doesn't have pano, but with his torn ACLs, he does experience pain. What works best for him is ice when his knees are swollen, warm (and wet) compresses when his knees are just achy, and gentle massage from the tips of his toes to his rump and hips (everyday) 


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

Brave said:


> Regarding the pain- I believe I read about buffered aspirin being used. Bear doesn't have pano, but with his torn ACLs, he does experience pain. What works best for him is ice when his knees are swollen, warm (and wet) compresses when his knees are just achy, and gentle massage from the tips of his toes to his rump and hips (everyday)
> 
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


Thanks for all your responses (to both of my threads ). I'm going to try and use some warm compresses on his shoulder for when he gets up from napping. Maybe that will help with some of his stiffness. I'm also going to make sure he gets massages often. I'll have to look into buffered aspirin, I'll bring it up with the next vet we go see.


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

coaraujo said:


> Thanks for all your responses (to both of my threads ). I'm going to try and use some warm compresses on his shoulder for when he gets up from napping. Maybe that will help with some of his stiffness. I'm also going to make sure he gets massages often. I'll have to look into buffered aspirin, I'll bring it up with the next vet we go see.


Your welcome. I am intimately aware of the pain owners can go through when their pup has musculoskeletal problems. We gotta stick together and share our experiences and knowledge. 


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## GoldenCamper (Dec 21, 2009)

Just a thought but the SNAP test does not cover RMSF which can happen here. Again, just a thought. I wish Oliver well.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Duralactin is an over the counter anti-inflammatory, we purchase it on Amazon actually. It was recommended to me by a number of golden breeders who had dealt with pano and tried everything, including a number of prescription drugs.

It is not like Rimadyl, in that, it is not an NSAID. It is also safer than using a steriod long term for inflammation. As far as I know the only potential side effects are GI upset initially since it is a dairy based product, so a dog with an intolerance for dairy probably shouldn't use it. But Kira had no issues when we started her on it, and we give it with each meal. It has worked really well, since she was a sad sad puppy for awhile there. I have kept her on it and probably will until she turns 2. Although pano is supposed to go away by 18 months I have heard some don't grow out of it until they are 2 years old.

I only mentioned the hereditary component to provide a possible explanation, I hope you didn't take that as a negative thing about the pedigree. I think some lines are just prone to it. Kira has always been a heavy dog for her size, with very dense bone. That characteristic (which is something common in her sire's pedigree) made her developing pano not a shock to me. Jack, on the other hand, also is heavy for his size due to the amount of bone, but never had pano. So I think there are a few things at play, but it seems really hard to predict. So far Kira's half-siblings don't have pano that I know of, although they are just 6 months old and we didn't discover she had pano until she was about a year old (although in hindsight I saw signs of it at about 6-7 months). She was diagnosed when I took her for hip and elbow prelims and I mentioned some lameness. I was worried it was an elbow issue but her elbows were perfect. They saw signs of pano on the xrays, so we were able to finally have an explanation for the limping. Although I have heard that is not always the case, and sometimes a pano diagnosis is made through a process of elimination.


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## stealle (Nov 12, 2012)

I just saw this thread and my first thought was, "Pano is less common in raw fed dogs." I did a quick search and found this article which agrees with my initial thoughts: http://leerburg.com/pano.htm

I do not believe kibble and/or Rimadyl is good advise. I do believe that article offers some good suggestions though.


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

GoldenCamper said:


> Just a thought but the SNAP test does not cover RMSF which can happen here. Again, just a thought. I wish Oliver well.


Thank you for the well wishes, I will definitely bring that up with my vet!



> Duralactin is an over the counter anti-inflammatory, we purchase it on Amazon actually. It was recommended to me by a number of golden breeders who had dealt with pano and tried everything, including a number of prescription drugs.
> 
> It is not like Rimadyl, in that, it is not an NSAID. It is also safer than using a steriod long term for inflammation. As far as I know the only potential side effects are GI upset initially since it is a dairy based product, so a dog with an intolerance for dairy probably shouldn't use it. But Kira had no issues when we started her on it, and we give it with each meal. It has worked really well, since she was a sad sad puppy for awhile there. I have kept her on it and probably will until she turns 2. Although pano is supposed to go away by 18 months I have heard some don't grow out of it until they are 2 years old.
> 
> I only mentioned the hereditary component to provide a possible explanation, I hope you didn't take that as a negative thing about the pedigree. I think some lines are just prone to it. Kira has always been a heavy dog for her size, with very dense bone. That characteristic (which is something common in her sire's pedigree) made her developing pano not a shock to me. Jack, on the other hand, also is heavy for his size due to the amount of bone, but never had pano. So I think there are a few things at play, but it seems really hard to predict. So far Kira's half-siblings don't have pano that I know of, although they are just 6 months old and we didn't discover she had pano until she was about a year old (although in hindsight I saw signs of it at about 6-7 months). She was diagnosed when I took her for hip and elbow prelims and I mentioned some lameness. I was worried it was an elbow issue but her elbows were perfect. They saw signs of pano on the xrays, so we were able to finally have an explanation for the limping. Although I have heard that is not always the case, and sometimes a pano diagnosis is made through a process of elimination.


Thank you so much for all this information! I will definitely Duralactin. I also just bought a different joint supplement GlycoFlex III since I have heard good things from members on this forum. Hopefully that will give him some relief. He is not happy at all with having to rest. He just lays inside and cries. I think he really wants to play . I need to get him a knuckle bone to keep him preoccupied. And don't worry I didn't take it as a negative thing about his pedigree ! I just figured if there was a history there I could have some piece of mind that this is pano. They not-knowing part is pretty scary. The other day our neighbors had a family party and a lady asked me if Oliver had hip dysplasia . She also mentioned she thought it was his back legs, but I thought it was his front  so maybe I should have his back legs looked at too. Hopefully I can get an appointment with an orthopedist soon, I can't seem to get into contact with the person my breeder recommended.


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

Thank you so much for this! It was really helpful and I'm going to start following some of the things that are listed in the article. I immediately reduced the amount of bone he was getting when I started researching pano and raw diets. I also was contemplating putting him on a little bit of a diet because I think he could lose a few pounds. It sounds like that could easily be causing his issues. I also just a bought a new joint supplement (which was kind of what this author recommended as well). It sounded like this person saw results pretty quickly so hopefully with some intense crate rest, a bit of dieting and some extra joint protection we can get Oliver back on his paws. 

Thank you everyone!



stealle said:


> I just saw this thread and my first thought was, "Pano is less common in raw fed dogs." I did a quick search and found this article which agrees with my initial thoughts: Leerburg | Panosteitis or PANO
> 
> I do not believe kibble and/or Rimadyl is good advise. I do believe that article offers some good suggestions though.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Just so you know, pano does jump from leg to leg. When Kira was at her worst it was predominantly on her front legs but would occasionally jump to one of her rear legs too.


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## stealle (Nov 12, 2012)

You are welcome! 

I just noticed that you "Oliver" is only 6 days younger than my "Ollie". I wish they could play together!


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

stealle said:


> You are welcome!
> 
> I just noticed that you "Oliver" is only 6 days younger than my "Ollie". I wish they could play together!


That's too crazy! I wonder how confused they'd get with both of us calling their names .


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> So far Kira's half-siblings don't have pano that I know of, although they are just 6 months old.


Nope, no pano on Gibbs, so far (knock on wood!). He is 8 months old and raised on Rhonda Hovan's slow growth plan. He now eats Stella & Chewey's raw. So far, so good.

_______________________


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

coaraujo said:


> Thanks for all your responses (to both of my threads ). I'm going to try and use some warm compresses on his shoulder for when he gets up from napping. Maybe that will help with some of his stiffness. I'm also going to make sure he gets massages often. I'll have to look into buffered aspirin, I'll bring it up with the next vet we go see.


Panosteitis is pain in the long bones, growing pains. Compresses on the shoulder(joint) will not be effective. My Cookie had pano as a pup. She was 62 lbs at 6 months and grew to be 67 lbs full grown. So effectively, she grew big very fast. I instantly cut back on her food and training with treats. She recovered and ended up OFA clear elbows and OFA Good hips. None of her pups or grandpups that I know of had an issue. However, I have her great granddaughter who has some bone. Early this Spring when I started to show her, I decided to up her food by one cup as she was ribby...two weeks later, she was short on her right hind in handling class. I cut her back and rested her..went back to class and the instructor said she was still short. So I said, "right hind?" And the instructor said, "no, left hind." Bingo, confirmed what I believed. She was painful on palpation of her femurs...long bone pain. She had no joint pain... It has been a long time since I went to a meeting about this but when I did, the specialist said to cut back on the plane of nutrition.. Recommended Purina Puppy Chow. I switch my guys to adult food at four months..


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

Sally's Mom said:


> Panosteitis is pain in the long bones, growing pains. Compresses on the shoulder(joint) will not be effective. My Cookie had pano as a pup. She was 62 lbs at 6 months and grew to be 67 lbs full grown. So effectively, she grew big very fast. I instantly cut back on her food and training with treats. She recovered and ended up OFA clear elbows and OFA Good hips. None of her pups or grandpups that I know of had an issue. However, I have her great granddaughter who has some bone. Early this Spring when I started to show her, I decided to up her food by one cup as she was ribby...two weeks later, she was short on her right hind in handling class. I cut her back and rested her..went back to class and the instructor said she was still short. So I said, "right hind?" And the instructor said, "no, left hind." Bingo, confirmed what I believed. She was painful on palpation of her femurs...long bone pain. She had no joint pain... It has been a long time since I went to a meeting about this but when I did, the specialist said to cut back on the plane of nutrition.. Recommended Purina Puppy Chow. I switch my guys to adult food at four months..


This is something similar to what my vet said (the long-bone part). He doesn't think Oliver has pano because there's no tenderness in any of the long bones, it all seems to either be the shoulder or the elbow. I am cutting back on his food, as he's not very ribby. He did seem to grow pretty gradually (or as gradual as a large breed can!). He's around 63 pounds at 10 months and probably got up to that point at 8/9 months and is staying pretty constant. I'm mostly concerned that if its not pano....what could it be, and how bad will it be .


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Ask your vet about Esther C. My homeopathic vet suggested it when Quiz was a pup... 500 mg/day. He never experienced pano. I used it as a preventative; I'm not sure what the thoughts are as to whether or not is can reduce symptoms once it's an issue.


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## lovecooper (Apr 21, 2013)

Hi, I just came across this thread because I was looking for info on the same thing. My Golden (Cooper) has been limping on his right front leg for 5 weeks now. It started the day after we came home from a day trip and left him with a neighbor who also has a dog. They played a lot and the next day I noticed the limp. He has been to the vet, x-rays were negative. We went to a specialist who also said the x-rays look clear, he couldn't really find the source of pain either. He said to wait a few weeks and if its not getting better to come back and they will do some more x-rays. His thinking is that it is a sprain, however he said if the limping does not improve it could be pano or even possibly the beginnings of elbow dysplasia. I've heard that pano jumps from leg to leg, but is that always the case or can it stay in one leg consistently? 

He shows no signs of discomfort and will run and jump if you let him, if he didn't limp you wouldn't know anything was wrong. I'm keeping him calm as best I can but the frustration is not knowing what it its, I don't know if i'm making it worse by not resting him more strictly.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Dogs will always run and jump in spite of pain... They limp because it hurts... Pano is long bone pain... If the joints hurt, consider elbow dysplasia, shoulder OCD...


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

Sally's Mom said:


> Dogs will always run and jump in spite of pain... They limp because it hurts... Pano is long bone pain... If the joints hurt, consider elbow dysplasia, shoulder OCD...


That's what I thought. My vet did X-Rays and have a radiologist review them and both agreed the shoulder/elbow looked normal. The first thing my vet thought was OCD, but that's been somewhat ruled out. I'm having an orthopedist come check him out sometime soon. Hopefully that will give us more answers. He's been on strict crate rest since Sunday with no improvement whatsoever in his limp. Very frustrating


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Crate rest and cut down on calories...


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

Well Oliver is getting even worse. He could barely move his hindquarters tonight. Hes extremely reluctant to move. He had to go to daycare tonight and I had them watch for his limp. They said it didnt seem to bother him much but his back legs seemed off, that he doesnt walk right. Im bringing him straight to the vet tomorrow morning. Im definitely in panic mode.

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