# forced fetch



## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

rictic said:


> what is a forced fetch?
> why is it used?


In the context of formal obedience it is most often an ear pinch - that tells the dog that retrieving the dumbbell is not optional. In general the concept is that you pinch, it causes pain, mouth opens, insert dumbbell...A very popular judge and the owner/trainer of the top obedience dog of all time (by UDX legs ) mentioned that her dogs always bite her when she introduces the forced retrieve. This prim and proper southern lady - who is 75ish telling me that her shelties always bite her when she used force fetch and if they didn't bite her she didn't have a good enough grip on the ear. 

I don't use a forced retrieve...when I started down the obedience road I heard from a lot of OTCH people that "it was only a matter of time before your dog decides that retrieving is optional and the force fetch is what you use to fix it". Really? One of my dogs (my CDX dog actually) isn't a particularly enthuastic retriever - he does it - but it's not his passion - I still never forced fetch. If I ear pinched Teller he'd probably decide that the game wasn't fun any more - I'm reasonably sure that I would decide that the game wasn't fun anymore. But a sheltie retrieving and a golden retrieving are different - I'll go so far as to say that some dogs need to be taught a forced fetch - but for me personally (and I know this wasn't really your question) I'd rather shape a retrieve on a dog that doesn't "get" retrieving than force them to do it...That's my party line though - I'm not big on the "have to" for my dogs in sport and I work very hard for them to "want to" - that's not to say that they don't have things in their world that they "have to" - their lives are not a democracy. That probably makes less sense than the ecollar post doesn't it...how's this: household manners: HAVE TO; weave poles: WANT TO; walking on a loose leash: HAVE TO; retrieving a dumbbell over a high jump: WANT TO.

Erica


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## fuzzbuzz (Aug 3, 2008)

Need the field trainers to explain this one.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

:doh: Force fetch is a whole lot more than just picking up an object. It extends into ALL areas of training the dog. Several Authors have written volumes on the subject.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

*From SmartFetch*

The Myths

More appropriately, there are more misperceptions than myths surrounding the process of force fetching retrievers. I think it starts with the term _force._ To the novice trainer/dog lover that word summons visions of a dog being thrashed or brutalized in some way or another. There are stories, some true, some contrived, about harsh measures being used to force fetch, like using bottle openers, pliers, etc. Nothing like that will appear as a suggestion in this text because it has nothing to do with how I approach it. Let’s start there and clear the air about that subject.

Ø Force: In retriever training this is a term that describes the use of pressure to achieve a sure and reliable response.* Influence that moves something, *says the dictionary*. *The amount of pressure is specified more by the dog than by the trainer. Often very little actual pressure is needed.
Ø  Pressure: something that affects thoughts and behavior in a powerful way, usually in the form of several outside influences working together persuasively.

Nowhere in any definition of these terms is abuse or brutality, nor should it be. Like many things, force and pressure are either good or bad depending on how they are applied. 

Another misperception is often the assumption that retrievers do all of their retrieving functions by nature, and shouldn’t need to be forced. Frankly, about all that dogs do by nature is to chase after motion, and follow their curiosity about what they smell. We cultivate the rest, both passively and through the use of pressure. Even the most basic puppy-fetch conditioning we all do to get them started is an act we contrive. These dogs retrieve out of self-centered impulses. Bringing birds to us is not a nature-driven act. Thankfully, it can be easily engineered!

Take a well-bred pup and turn him loose in a fenced yard for three years, or so. Leave him strictly to the influences of nature. Then go out one day and see how well he does on the type of retrieving work that would make him useful in game conservation. Compare his work to even an average gun dog with amateur training. How do you think it would come out? No brainer! Whatever natural gifts a dog may have, without some kind of guidance they will tend to be of little value.

It’s not a negative statement that retrievers need training to do the work we need them to do in the field and marsh. That type of work requires a dog to have good natural abilities, but also to be taught how to put those abilities to work because the skills and functions we require are _our_ idea. We invented them. It’s okay. That’s why dogs and trainers are so often referred to as a team. Both contribute to the effort.

*The Reality*


First of all, force fetch is more than just one thing. It is a definable process with clear goals. But, within the process are several steps or phases. Those steps will be laid out later, but first let’s examine the goals.

To establish a standard for acceptable mouth habits.
To provide the trainer with a tool to maintain those habits.
To provide the trainer with a tool to assure compliance with the command to retrieve.
To form the foundation for impetus (momentum).
Pressure conditioning.
Mouth habits include such important items as fetching on command, even when your dog may be distracted, or moody, or any number of things that might interfere with compliance. Sure, you may get away for years without having such problems, but being smart and being lucky are not the same thing. Force fetch gives you a tool to handle this when it comes up, plus some insurance that it is less likely to come up due to this training. 

Along with compulsion issues we need to mention a proper hold, and delivery on command. If my pheasant is punctured I want it to be from pellets, not teeth. That actually covers some ground in all of the first three categories.

Let’s spend a little time on number four. Lots of people use the terms _momentum_ and _style_ interchangeably. I think it’s important to distinguish between the two because of how they relate to this subject. Force fetch is the foundation of trained momentum, and provides a springboard into subsequent steps of basic development. Style has little to do with this. Here’s why.
Ø Style: A combination of speed, enthusiasm, and just plain hustle that you see in a dog going toward a fall. Style is the product of natural desire and athleticism. 
Ø Momentum: In a retriever, the compulsion from the dog’s point of origin; defined in the dictionary as “the force possessed by a body in motion, *Measure of movement: *a quantity that expresses the motion of a body and its resistance to slowing down. It is equal to the product of the body’s mass and velocity”.

Clearly, this quality is a tremendously valuable asset in the running of blinds and overcoming diversion pressure. It even applies to running long marks, and/or marks through tough cover or terrain. When you need a dog to drive hundreds of yards against the draining influences of terrain, cover, re-entries, and all of the real and perceived factors that are so commonly momentum-robbing, having a dog with a reservoir of momentum is immensely valuable. Force fetch is where that reservoir is established, and can be built upon.

From the foundation of a _forced_ fetch most modern methods progress through stages that continue to build on this principle. Stick fetch, Collar Condition to fetch, Walking fetch, Force to pile, and Water force are all extensions of the work we do in ear pinch or toe hitch, which are popular means to get it all going. When a dog has finished such a course the result is an animal far more driven, with much more resolve to overcome obstacles and distance and distractions.

Lest we forget ~

I am not suggesting that we harm or abuse dogs in any of this force work I’ve spoken of. The late Jim Kappes said, _“A properly forced dog shouldn’t look forced”._ I completely agree. Momentum and style are distinct terms, each with their own meanings, as pertains to retrievers. I firmly believe that both are traits that should co-exist in a well-trained retriever.

The above is from the book *SmartFetch*, the definitive text on force fetching.

EvanG


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## Klamath Gold (Dec 26, 2008)

Well put. I could not have done it any better. Thanks Evan.


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## rictic (Feb 16, 2009)

wow. i didnt realise it was such a complex thing.
i imagined it as 'making a dog go fetch something'

but by golly it aint that simple.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Thanks for the question and Evan G, thanks for the response, I am just getting ready to FF my boy (working the hold right now). I have been putting it off maybe longer then I should have.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

I confess, I'm behind a bit with my boy, as well. He's just now starting force to pile @13 months.

EvanG


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## Tatnall (May 20, 2008)

EvanG said:


> When a dog has finished such a course the result is an animal far more driven, with much more resolve to overcome obstacles and distance and distractions.


I am not a pro or a guru or anything, but when people ask me about force fetch, the above is really the part is stress.

Let's face it, if it were only about picking up birds and things, it would not be as popular. Most retrievers are going to pick up birds relatively well, yet force fetch is almost universal in some form or another in retriever training.

The reason, I think, is in Evan's quote. It is an early stage in a process that teaches a dog how to respond to pressure and obstacles and there are many, many of those.

For example, holding a straight line on a hill or cover or with wind is not natural for a dog. But as a retriever owner that is pretty important because it allows them to go out and get the game quickly and without disturbing other areas you might want to hunt. Through the whole process of training the dog it has been taught how to respond well to these unnatural things and to get to the goal. FF is the base for all of it--the first really serious training. It gives the dog an understanding of what it is supposed to do when things are not going exactly as it would like that the trainer builds upon and reinforces for the rest of the dogs life.


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## z24pride (May 13, 2008)

I actually walked by a booth at the Toronto Sportsmans show last weekend where there was a video of a golden being FF'd....
The dogs ear would be held against the e-collar, the trainer would force the dogs head down to the bumper laying on the ground, with the ecollar stimulating against his ear, he was letting the moans and yelps out of him until he would pick up the bumper thats when the ecollar was signalled off. This was repeated over and over... I went home from the show and told the wife this was the most disturbing video i think i have seen...


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

z24pride said:


> I actually walked by a booth at the Toronto Sportsmans show last weekend where there was a video of a golden being FF'd....
> The dogs ear would be held against the e-collar, the trainer would force the dogs head down to the bumper laying on the ground, with the ecollar stimulating against his ear, he was letting the moans and yelps out of him until he would pick up the bumper thats when the ecollar was signalled off. This was repeated over and over... I went home from the show and told the wife this was the most disturbing video i think i have seen...


That DOES sound horribly disturbing. What a horrible way to train a dog to do anything. What kind of person can do something like that and feel like they are doing the right thing?


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## NuttinButGoldens (Jan 10, 2009)

I'm not digging this at all... Sounds as barbaric as a Cattle Prod.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

z24pride said:


> This was repeated over and over... I went home from the show and told the wife this was the most disturbing video i think i have seen...


Do you recall the name of it? I'm curious because that has no relationship to how we do it in the *Smartwork* system.

EvanG


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## z24pride (May 13, 2008)

Evan : I know the company that had the video playing at the show was Zinger Winger... Sorry I didn't get the video name...

But on a different note, would you mind filling me in a little on the Smartwork system(through email if you like). I would love to know more info..

Thanks,
Kristen


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Kristen,

The Smartwork system is based on the method and philosophies of the late Rex Carr. But it has been streamlined and augmented to the extent that it is distinctly a method of its own. What drove me to develop it was the innovative chronology of drills and practices Rex arranged in his method that made it so much easier for dogs to learn, and to become stable and reliable. That, and the fairness with which he sought to employ his method inspired me like nothing else ever had.

Smartwork is a sequential system of development that has its own logical flow of information. This allows even a new trainer to train proficiently because there aren’t the gaps in sequence so often found in other methods. The dots are connected clearly, and that makes it easier for the trainer to learn, and for the dog to assimilate.

It consists of 3 books and currently 11 DVD’s. The more detail and information the trainer desires, the more is available.

*Books:**
*
Smartwork for Retrievers volume one; Basics and Transition
SmartFetch
Smartwork II: Secrets of the Pros

*DVD's:*
Puppy Program
Smartwork Obedience
SmartFetch
Smartwork Basic Handling
Smartwork Water Force & Swim-by
Men of Steel (the Stickman Drills)
Transition: Phase 1
Transition: Phase 2 
Transition: Phase 3
Walking Baseball (casting-only drill)
Definitive Casting

I believe this makes the Smartwork system the most successful and complete multimedia learning tool on the subject of working retrievers.

EvanG


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## AcesWild (Nov 29, 2008)

Would you recommend those for a complete novice evan? A novice...such as me


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

They were designed for the novice. The first book (volume one), and the first 5 DVD's should allow the novice to put together a very high functioning retriever for fieldwork. That comprises the Puppy Program and all 4 DVD's of Basics.

Read the first half of volume one, study the DVD's one at a time and go to work! Actually, if you're starting a puppy, the Puppy Program DVD alone will provide you with roughly 6 months of training.

EvanG


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## AcesWild (Nov 29, 2008)

OH FANTASTIC! Is there a special deal if I buy all of them? I don't get puppy until December or so but I would love to do something to prepare...have some plan.

http://innotek-dog-training-collars.stores.yahoo.net/smartwork-dvd-set.html is this a good deal?


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

AcesWild said:


> OH FANTASTIC!
> http://innotek-dog-training-collars.stores.yahoo.net/smartwork-dvd-set.html is this a good deal?


Yes it is a very good deal! If you want a somewhat better one take a look at...
The Full *SMARTWORK* Package *Special*! 

Includes all of the following DVD’s


Smartwork Puppy Program 
Smartwork Obedience 
SmartFetch 
Smartwork Basic Handling 
Water Force & Swim-by 
Transition; Phase 1 
Transition; Phase 2 
Transition; Phase 3 
Regular price $229.60 + $40.00 S&H
NOW specially priced at *$195.00 + only $7.50 S&H !!!*

That will give you a look at your future training from beginning to end; a finished, fully trained retriever (and plenty to watch!).

EvanG


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

That's a GREAT deal, I'm headed there now to get mine!


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Great! Study and enjoy. I think you'll really like the emphasis on clear teaching, and minimizing & focusing the use of pressure.

Let me know if you have any questions.

EvanG


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Evan, I have trained my Goldens through Utility in obedience, what is the obedience DVD like?


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I'm real interested to hear your experiences in beginning field training your goldens, as mine is also trained thru utility in obedience and I'm curious what if any effect that has on field training.




DNL2448 said:


> Evan, I have trained my Goldens through Utility in obedience, what is the obedience DVD like?


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> I'm real interested to hear your experiences in beginning field training your goldens, as mine is also trained thru utility in obedience and I'm curious what if any effect that has on field training.


If any of you are familiar with Anne Everett of Heads Up Kennels in Vancouver, BC, Canada, she is a fine example of someone who is just further along in your own stories. Anne has enjoyed substantial success in the Obedience ring, making numerous OTCH's over the years - all with Goldens. A few years ago she gravited toward fieldwork. She got hold of one of my books, and it seemed to ignite her imagination.

She has quickly risen from an outsider in the the sport of field trials to someone who has now taken her Goldens successfully to a very competitive status, including All-Age points; an Open 2nd last year! She's made several MH's, and several QAA. Here is a link to her site, for those who would like to know more. http://headsupkennels.com/index.php

DNL2448,

The Smartwork Obedience DVD focuses on formalizing the fundamental obedience commands that are essential to fieldwork. With the good foundation of teaching and conditioning you've given your dogs, this course will elevate your dog's standard of reliability by completing the cycle of training.

*Teach -* the guiding of behavior & rewarding it; the passive stage
*Force -* the formalization stage
*Reinforce -* the maintenance stage

The DVD will expound on all of this.

EvanG


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Evan, thanks for the information, I'll check out Anne's website after my morning cruising of the forum. 

Hotel4Dogs (love the name!), the biggest obstacle I have had training for field and obedience (and just recently, agility) is the commands. In obed. to send a dog over a jump in the go outs, everyone in my class uses "over", well in the field, that is a directional command. So while everyone uses the traditional commands I have subtle differences in mine. For instance, I use "jump" vs. "over". On the plus side, I am able to use field bumpers to begin the "go-outs" in utility. 

Actually, I started out training for the field (20 years ago), but then my training support group kinda went their seperate ways and I gravitated to obedience. However, I missed the field work and recently, started to get back into it and lo and behold found a new group of friends that train in the field. We are just waiting for the weather to get better so we can go full steam ahead. (Our training days the last couple weeks have been nasty and cold). 

I digress, your question was the effect obed. will have in field. It only strengthens the response and control your dog will have. I am excited to get Evans DVD's as I am sure they will work hand in hand with what we already do. Just give consideration to the commands you use for each activity.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Thanks!
Because we already do obedience/conformation/agility (in order of importance, LOL), I'm careful about the commands. When we first started doing the "go-outs", I found he was confused and kept looking around. It occured to me that in agility I use "GO" all the time, followed by an obstacle, like, "GO TUNNEL" , "GO WEAVE", etc. So I think he was looking for an obstacle named "OUT"! 
Now I say, "RUN OUT" and he's completely confident in what I want him to do!
When we start out around the ring in conformation, I say, "LET'S GO!" so he knows I don't expect him to heel.
I also use "JUMP IT" for the jumps in directed jumping, because *someone* I live with taught him that "over" means roll over on his back!
I wish someone in my area would welcome TOTALLY NOVICE field people. So far, I haven't had any luck. There are a few well cemented hunting groups...that's all I've found so far.




DNL2448 said:


> Evan, thanks for the information, I'll check out Anne's website after my morning cruising of the forum.
> 
> Hotel4Dogs (love the name!), the biggest obstacle I have had training for field and obedience (and just recently, agility) is the commands. In obed. to send a dog over a jump in the go outs, everyone in my class uses "over", well in the field, that is a directional command. So while everyone uses the traditional commands I have subtle differences in mine. For instance, I use "jump" vs. "over". On the plus side, I am able to use field bumpers to begin the "go-outs" in utility.
> 
> ...


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

I have a question for you guys & gals, since Obedience and Agility are not my areas. Is the actual command you use a component of what is judged? In other words, if you used a field oriented command, but the dog performed the act needed for the testing, would you be scored down for not using a standard word/command?

EvanG


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Evan, if I understand your question, we can use any command as long as it fits within the rules, we can use the dogs name an usually one command an exception we can say "go back" but it has to be smooth without becoming two commands "go.....back". Very few exercises can we use a command with a hand signal, it's either one or the other in almost all stages. Agility is again totally different, I am still just learning this one.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

hotel4dogs said:


> I'm real interested to hear your experiences in beginning field training your goldens, as mine is also trained thru utility in obedience and I'm curious what if any effect that has on field training.


I was obviously very fortunate in my trainig of my Keeper. I did not have different words to convey different commands. In obedience my right hand/arm straight up meant down for signals. In field it meant back. Over in obedience meant to jump whatever obstacle there was (high jump, bar jump or broad jump) and in field it was a directional command. And the same was true for her daughter Lucy. The only command that was different between the venues was was go out/back command. And that was because I liked being cute/different. In obedience I used "scram" for Keeper and for Lucy I used "Lucy (losey) goosey". In field I used "back" for both dogs. Keeper never had an issue but Lucy did when i decided to take her out for her UDX after 4 years of retiremet from obedience. At first all was fine but then my go outs fell apart (at trials pulled up short but NEVER in training). So I decided to try my field command "back" and she was going all the way. But when I gave her the jump she would go into the corner of the ring. It actually took me about 4 shows before I realized she thought I was casting her to the corner. 
Due to health reasons I had pretty much stopped field training with her but have decided that this spring and summer I will concentrate on that and see if I can not get that Senior Hunter title for her. She was trained and pretty much ready to start going to senior tests but we never really did.


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## Bogart'sMom (Sep 16, 2005)

MurphyTeller said:


> In the context of formal obedience it is most often an ear pinch - that tells the dog that retrieving the dumbbell is not optional. In general the concept is that you pinch, it causes pain, mouth opens, insert dumbbell...A very popular judge and the owner/trainer of the top obedience dog of all time (by UDX legs ) mentioned that her dogs always bite her when she introduces the forced retrieve. This prim and proper southern lady - who is 75ish telling me that her shelties always bite her when she used force fetch and if they didn't bite her she didn't have a good enough grip on the ear.
> 
> I don't use a forced retrieve...when I started down the obedience road I heard from a lot of OTCH people that "it was only a matter of time before your dog decides that retrieving is optional and the force fetch is what you use to fix it". Really? One of my dogs (my CDX dog actually) isn't a particularly enthuastic retriever - he does it - but it's not his passion - I still never forced fetch. If I ear pinched Teller he'd probably decide that the game wasn't fun any more - I'm reasonably sure that I would decide that the game wasn't fun anymore. But a sheltie retrieving and a golden retrieving are different - I'll go so far as to say that some dogs need to be taught a forced fetch - but for me personally (and I know this wasn't really your question) I'd rather shape a retrieve on a dog that doesn't "get" retrieving than force them to do it...That's my party line though - I'm not big on the "have to" for my dogs in sport and I work very hard for them to "want to" - that's not to say that they don't have things in their world that they "have to" - their lives are not a democracy. That probably makes less sense than the ecollar post doesn't it...how's this: household manners: HAVE TO; weave poles: WANT TO; walking on a loose leash: HAVE TO; retrieving a dumbbell over a high jump: WANT TO.
> 
> Erica


Erica I love your post.
Thank you,


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## gabbys mom (Apr 23, 2008)

MurphyTeller said:


> In the context of formal obedience it is most often an ear pinch - that tells the dog that retrieving the dumbbell is not optional. In general the concept is that you pinch, it causes pain, mouth opens, insert dumbbell...A very popular judge and the owner/trainer of the top obedience dog of all time (by UDX legs ) mentioned that her dogs always bite her when she introduces the forced retrieve. This prim and proper southern lady - who is 75ish telling me that her shelties always bite her when she used force fetch and if they didn't bite her she didn't have a good enough grip on the ear.
> 
> I don't use a forced retrieve...when I started down the obedience road I heard from a lot of OTCH people that "it was only a matter of time before your dog decides that retrieving is optional and the force fetch is what you use to fix it". Really? One of my dogs (my CDX dog actually) isn't a particularly enthuastic retriever - he does it - but it's not his passion - I still never forced fetch. If I ear pinched Teller he'd probably decide that the game wasn't fun any more - I'm reasonably sure that I would decide that the game wasn't fun anymore. But a sheltie retrieving and a golden retrieving are different - I'll go so far as to say that some dogs need to be taught a forced fetch - but for me personally (and I know this wasn't really your question) I'd rather shape a retrieve on a dog that doesn't "get" retrieving than force them to do it...That's my party line though - I'm not big on the "have to" for my dogs in sport and I work very hard for them to "want to" - that's not to say that they don't have things in their world that they "have to" - their lives are not a democracy. That probably makes less sense than the ecollar post doesn't it...how's this: household manners: HAVE TO; weave poles: WANT TO; walking on a loose leash: HAVE TO; retrieving a dumbbell over a high jump: WANT TO.
> 
> Erica



This is so interesting to me. 

I do both obedience and beginning field work with my girl. We FF'd- which, in our area (MO), is really still the method in obedience. 

I'm obviously not commenting about your dog, but it has been my observation that the FFd dogs consistently perform better @ the retrieve based exercises (ROF, ROF, gloves, scent articles) than the non-FFd dogs in my area. Perhaps it is a matter of consistent criteria as well.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

As someone who both force fetches consistently, and is in the business of training trainers, I constantly make the point that it's not an either/or proposition regarding force or pressure. What we continuously promote is the attitude and conviction that our dogs both _want to_ obey, and also _feel compelled_ to obey, which makes them far more reliable under command.

But it must also be understood that "force" & "pressure" are not words that imply an amount. For many dogs, very little pressure is usually needed to correct or to compel.

EvanG


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Interesting to me as well, we had this discussion in training too. I think there might be some other factor than the FF at work in the dogs performing consistently, since I've been aware of the opposite in our area (IL). The FF dogs that I've been watching are much more unreliable, often grabbing at the nearest article or glove rather than working the pile. It's as if their brain is on the possible correction rather than the task at hand. So I think there's more to it than just whether or not the dogs were FF'd. Might just be a function of the people in your area that you've observed did it better; I think if you don't know how to do it, don't. JMO.





gabbys mom said:


> This is so interesting to me.
> 
> I do both obedience and beginning field work with my girl. We FF'd- which, in our area (MO), is really still the method in obedience.
> 
> I'm obviously not commenting about your dog, but it has been my observation that the FFd dogs consistently perform better @ the retrieve based exercises (ROF, ROF, gloves, scent articles) than the non-FFd dogs in my area. Perhaps it is a matter of consistent criteria as well.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> Interesting to me as well, we had this discussion in training too. I think there might be some other factor than the FF at work in the dogs performing consistently, since I've been aware of the opposite in our area (IL). The FF dogs that I've been watching are much more unreliable, often grabbing at the nearest article or glove rather than working the pile.


If that's happening they're not being unreliable. They're being trained incompletely. Force fetch is more than one act or phase of development. In years past, when someone spoke of force fetch, they were referring to the formal teaching of "Hold", followed by ear pinch or toe hitch to promote "Fetch" on command. That is only the beginning.


hotel4dogs said:


> It's as if their brain is on the possible correction rather than the task at hand. So I think there's more to it than just whether or not the dogs were FF'd. Might just be a function of the people in your area that you've observed did it better; I think if you don't know how to do it, don't. JMO.


If left to the simple beginnings of the process, such reactions are a potential risk. However, following Hold & Fetch (via ear pinch or toe hitch), we then do Walking Fetch, and an important step called "Fetch - no Fetch", during which the dog is only allowed to fetch one bumper out of every two or three he's led past in a Walking Fetch-type of exercise. That is followed by force to pile, during which the complete trained retrieve is assembled; fetch & recall.

If the job is completed the dog will be supremely reliable, as well as possessing enhanced momentum.

EvanG


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Evan, what you describe as incomplete training is, in fact, what you generally see in obedience around here. No wonder the dogs don't seem very reliable.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> Evan, what you describe as incomplete training is, in fact, what you generally see in obedience around here. No wonder the dogs don't seem very reliable.


I understand, and believe me, I see it all the time. One of the calculated risks of authoring a book or video about one's own method of training is that someone will end up saying "I follow the _x-y-z_ method, and my dog turned out terrible"! In fact, the person may have used parts of the method, but applied it incompletely or unfairly to the dog. Under those conditions, any dog may have turned out poorly. 

Of course, my concern is for the dog. So, if I can make even a few trainers fairer with their dogs, learn to praise them for compliance and good effort, and to be slower to punish, I will have made life better for an exponential number of dogs, and that alone is worth the risks of false blame.

EvanG


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## gabbys mom (Apr 23, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> Evan, what you describe as incomplete training is, in fact, what you generally see in obedience around here. No wonder the dogs don't seem very reliable.



Agreed. 

The obed. trainers around here are big on not allowing first time FF'ers to do it w/o supervision/guidance- which I think contributes to a better/more complete understanding of what's going on and why you need to do certain things. I know my utility instructor also made me go read Terri Arnold's obedience books AND watch Mike Lardy's Total Retriever DVDs before we began FFing. No excuses for me  

I also think FFing is one of those things that if you can't do it all the way/don't know what you are doing, etc, it's may be better to have a pro do it because of the result that you are talking about, hotel4dogs.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

gabbys mom said:


> I know my utility instructor also made me go read Terri Arnold's obedience books AND watch Mike Lardy's Total Retriever DVDs before we began FFing. No excuses for me


Connie Cleaveland also has a good FF method, she stresses pressure, not pain!


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## my4goldens (Jan 21, 2009)

I am a force fetch proponent, if done properly and humanely. I think what turns people off is the way they have seen it taught. To me proper force fetching is not the same as the ear pinch method. My first dog was a natural retriever but hated the dumbbell, I was such a novice I had no idea how to teach it so relied on my instructor, who proceeded to flip the prong collar over and pinch my dogs ear on the prong to cause her to open her mouth for the dumbbell. She screamed, I cringed and afterwards vowed if my dog had to learn like that our obedience career was over. Since then I have done a lot of research, read books, gone to seminars. I saw first hand Connie Clevelands version of teaching it, and with my second dog used a combination of all I learned to teach him it. I also watched my son while he force fetched his lab, similar to the way EvanG describes. Worked wonderfully. The dog was a consistent reliable retriever who loved doing it, sadly developed epilepsy at not quite two, my son was afraid to send him into water after that, he still loves to retrieve now at 9 years of age. I truly believe that people who are so against force fetching have never seen it taught in the right way, humanely, probably like me and my first dog. My dog now has a reliable retrieve and if he doesn't choose to retrieve the way I want him to I have a way to remind him quickly of what I want.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

and why are you home posting on the forum instead of at training watching me humiliate myself, hmmm???



my4goldens said:


> I am a force fetch proponent, if done properly and humanely. I think what turns people off is the way they have seen it taught. To me proper force fetching is not the same as the ear pinch method. My first dog was a natural retriever but hated the dumbbell, I was such a novice I had no idea how to teach it so relied on my instructor, who proceeded to flip the prong collar over and pinch my dogs ear on the prong to cause her to open her mouth for the dumbbell. She screamed, I cringed and afterwards vowed if my dog had to learn like that our obedience career was over. Since then I have done a lot of research, read books, gone to seminars. I saw first hand Connie Clevelands version of teaching it, and with my second dog used a combination of all I learned to teach him it. I also watched my son while he force fetched his lab, similar to the way EvanG describes. Worked wonderfully. The dog was a consistent reliable retriever who loved doing it, sadly developed epilepsy at not quite two, my son was afraid to send him into water after that, he still loves to retrieve now at 9 years of age. I truly believe that people who are so against force fetching have never seen it taught in the right way, humanely, probably like me and my first dog. My dog now has a reliable retrieve and if he doesn't choose to retrieve the way I want him to I have a way to remind him quickly of what I want.


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## my4goldens (Jan 21, 2009)

You got me. You go this morning? I know, I know, I got to get serious about this. Just a little concerned about the hounds' shoulder. He seems to be better today, will wait and see how he is tomorrow. How did Tito do today?


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