# Difference in Behavior/Trainability between "English Cream" vs American Standard?



## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

I don't think it's different genes that's causing the difference you see, but more to do with the dogs that are being bred. There really aren't any reputable breeders out there selling their puppies as "English Cream." So basically all of the dogs called those marketing terms are coming from BYB's or HVB (high volume breeders). They typically don't care about the breed standard even if they know it and are going to breed their dog regardless of the dog's genetic contribution to the breed. So you have people breeding shy, fearful, even aggressive goldens that no responsible person would ever think of breeding because those characteristics are passed down to the offspring. Temperament is genetic, a good deal of it anyway. 

To be clear, I'm not saying all light colored dogs have temperament issues. Just that dogs from less responsible breeders are more prone to issues and temperaments that don't fit the standard.


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## ceegee (Mar 26, 2015)

I can't answer your specific question about "English Cream" dogs because I know nothing about them, and I'm very interested to hear what others have to say about this, especially those with experience of breeding. However, based on anecdotal experience, I would say that breeding seems as though it can impact behaviour. My current dog is my first dog from true working lines, and he's been a revelation. His focus and ability to learn are phenomenal. He comes from generations of obedience and agility champions on both side of his pedigree, and he's an absolute joy to train. In terms of desire to work, focus and trainability, he's exactly what I hoped for when I first saw his pedigree. He is very similar in temperament and behaviour to his two parents. 

IMHO there's a second factor at issue too: the breeder's experience. With both my Goldens, the breeder chose the pup for me and gave me exactly the type of dog I asked for. Again IMHO, a system where inexperienced dog owners choose their own pups on a first-come, first-served basis is bound to produce a fairly high percentage of mismatches: high energy dogs in homes that aren't equipped to deal with them, bossy pups in inexperienced homes, assertive pups with unassertive owners, and so on. I would guess that some of the problems we read about here are due to these mismatches.


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## usually lurking (Apr 21, 2017)

The issue is that there are only Golden Retrievers. There's no such breed as an "English Cream," and there is no such recognized "variety" of Golden called an English Cream. Money hungry breeders are using the term as a marketing ploy to sell out of standard Goldens to unsuspecting puppy buyers. The dogs are typically bred *only* for color (often a color that would be dismissed from the breed ring for being too light) with no regard to size, temperament, structure, etc. As such, it is not surprising to see a dog marketed as "English Cream" with behavior issues, trainability issues, or health issues. Reputable breeders try to breed the most correct puppies possible, with regards to the breed standard. Those are the puppies that are much more likely to be biddable. So, to answer your question more directly, yes, it is genetic. If you want a Golden that's predictable and biddable, find a reputable breeder.


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## Sarah J (Mar 22, 2017)

ArchersMom said:


> I don't think it's different genes that's causing the difference you see, but more to do with the dogs that are being bred. There really aren't any reputable breeders out there selling their puppies as "English Cream." So basically all of the dogs called those marketing terms are coming from BYB's or HVB (high volume breeders). They typically don't care about the breed standard even if they know it and are going to breed their dog regardless of the dog's genetic contribution to the breed. So you have people breeding shy, fearful, even aggressive goldens that no responsible person would ever think of breeding because those characteristics are passed down to the offspring. Temperament is genetic, a good deal of it anyway.
> 
> To be clear, I'm not saying all light colored dogs have temperament issues. Just that dogs from less responsible breeders are more prone to issues and temperaments that don't fit the standard.


I think this sounds about right based on what I saw at the breeder. I thought all was good because both parents were AKC registered, but I know a lot better now. Don't get me wrong, Trudy is still a GREAT dog and I love her. She's very attached to us and super sweet, and really pretty obedient most of the time. She doesn't bark when we leave the house. She goes to bed very calmly. She has never destroyed a SINGLE thing - not a chair leg, a sock, nothing. It's just that exciteability that gets in the way. I'm still open to the idea that it will age out a bit... (fingers crossed.)


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## Sarah J (Mar 22, 2017)

ceegee said:


> With both my Goldens, the breeder chose the pup for me and gave me exactly the type of dog I asked for. Again IMHO, a system where inexperienced dog owners choose their own pups on a first-come, first-served basis is bound to produce a fairly high percentage of mismatches: high energy dogs in homes that aren't equipped to deal with them, bossy pups in inexperienced homes, assertive pups with unassertive owners, and so on. I would guess that some of the problems we read about here are due to these mismatches.


I've seen you mention this before on this forum, and it's something I would ABSOLUTELY do in future! I think it's a great idea. I was really surprised when I went to pick out Trudy. I was asking about the puppies' personalities and the breeder really couldn't even really tell them apart, never mind tell us anything about their personalities (ironically enough, I ended up choosing her because she seemed calm compared to others, but still playful and interested.) That combined with the momma dog's personality were red flags that I should have listened to. For someone who had never had or shopped for a dog before, it's pretty easy to get caught up in the pile of 10 floofy puppies and not listen to your gut...


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

Genetics can play a big part in fear. Most breeders that are selling "english creme goldens" are in it for the money. They are not selecting dogs for quality but for color. Most backyard breeders are also not selecting dogs for quality. It would seem that since they aren't doing their due diligence it stands to reason that over all their will be many more physical and mental challenges with more of these dogs than breeders that are breeding to standard, doing the health certifications, working their dogs in some way with the intent to better the breed.


The fearful Dog: Causes and Treatment | NJ.com


"It’s been scientifically proven that fear can be inherited. For years the National Inst
itutes of Health has been studying the bloodline of a group of Pointers that are so fearful, many are afraid of their own shadow."

As the article states I would suggest getting an appointment with a vet behaviorist or a vet that works with a behaviorist. Definitely have your pup checked for thyroid problems as this can cause these type of behaviors. A low normal thyroid problem in a golden retriever actually means they most likely need medicine.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

I would also agree that dogs I have seen bred by profit driven breeders of "English Cream" dogs do tend to as a group display a more fearful behavior pattern. Dropping to the floor, slinking and dramatic submissive peeing are behaviors I have seen time and again by breeders that make color thier only breeding criteria. 

I think this issue might stem from how these dogs got to the United States. Most are importing sight unseen from commercial Kennels in poorer and sometimes war torn countries in Eastern Europe. To be fair some of these Kennels have nice dogs but tend to keep the best for themselves or other European breeders. I feel like most of the time what gets sent here is what is left over and likely pet quality. Since outgoing temperament is important in a show dog I would bet the tendency is to send the puppies on the more timid side along with those of not spectacular confirmation to the US buyers that only care about color, full registration for breeding and Ichthyosis status. 

Then these already less than stellar representatives of the breed are put in the hands of breeders sorely lacking breed knowledge and a reason to care since a lot of buyers only care about cute, light color and immediate availability. Also many of these folks never do anything with these dogs and those that do some maybe 2 days at and International dog show buying their title. If the dogs are never taken out of the they will not have a true understanding of how correct or in most cases faulty their dogs temperament is.

Now that I have Tizzy whom I went to Italy to get, I will say depending on the situation sometimes she is not as boldly confident as I have found my American bred dogs to be. It is not so much that she is timid of fearful but that she is relying on me as means if determining if the situation is safe. As soon as I give her that she gladly rushes into new and different situations with joy and gusto. I have not found her to be any more or less rambunctious or vocal than my American dogs.


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## Sarah J (Mar 22, 2017)

LJack said:


> I think this issue might stem from how these dogs got to the United States. Most are importing sight unseen from commercial Kennels in poorer and sometimes war torn countries in Eastern Europe. To be fair some of these Kennels have nice dogs but tend to keep the best for themselves or other European breeders. I feel like most of the time what gets sent here is what is left over and likely pet quality. Since outgoing temperament is important in a show dog I would bet the tendency is to send the puppies on the more timid side along with those of not spectacular confirmation to the US buyers that only care about color, full registration for breeding and Ichthyosis status.


This is a very interesting point. Once I got Trudy, I started looking into the "English Cream" type a bit more, so I joined a facebook group, thinking, perhaps, that it would be more like this forum. However, I almost only ever see ads for puppies, primarily from Russia and Ukraine. In addition to the behavioral hyper-sensitivity issues for Trudy, I'm also noticing some hip issues (the "bunny hop" while running.) As she lays here next to me, though, I really can't emphasize enough how amazing she is. We got her at a difficult point in our lives, and she has been such a ray of light and brightness for us. 

I have a serious question that comes not from a place of snarkyness, but rather from genuine ignorance and curiosity about how all this works: a few of you have mentioned the focus on breeding based on color. But, based on what I've read about the differences between English vs American goldens, the real difference is that the AKC standards for showing allow for golden yellow to red while the English equivalent of the AKC does not allow for red, and instead values the white to golden yellow spectrum. So don't breeders of the American goldens also breed, at least somewhat, based on color, too?


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

Color should be last on the list of concerns for a breeder. And the American standard does allow the light end of the spectrum, there are AKC Champions whom are very pale, but either extreme is not preferred.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Temperament and trainablity do have genetic components to them. Most breeders take those traits along with many others into consideration when selecting which sire and dam they're going to put together. That's what "Good" breeders do. 

Unfortunately those folks chasing the "English Cream" fad, are usually keeping an eye on only a few or one trait only. They're breeding for color, at and the expense of any other consideration. That's why most other breeders bristle when some some poor fool asks about where they can find a "English Cream Retriever". The vast majority of them are not well thought out carefully bred dogs.


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## GoldenDude (Nov 5, 2016)

I have a white colored Golden Retriever (I refuse to use the words "English Cream.") and 4 non-white Golden Retrievers. My white colored Golden came from a quality breeder on an island in the Atlantic. (Besides agreeing to spay her, I was asked not to publicly share the breeder's name. He didn't want Americans contacting him as part of the "English Cream" fad.) 

Of my Goldens, she's in the middle on easiness to train. My Goldens that came from Bearabella and MyBuddyGoldens are hands down the easiest ones to train. My white Golden requires a very sensitive, thoughtful approach to training. Everything must be kept extremely positive or she gets flustered and will shut down. 

There's no submissive urination. She's incredibly sweet and gets along very well as part of a pack. Like your typical Golden she's needs a job/physical exertion.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Sarah J said:


> So don't breeders of the American goldens also breed, at least somewhat, based on color, too?


Well, bad ones do. Just as there are profit breeders marketing English Creams, there are equal terrible profit breeders marketing American Reds. 

Those however are not the ones I think you are asking about. It is enlightening to truly look across the pond and see what it is showing in European rings. If you listen to the profit breeders here, they will try to have you believe that all European dogs are lighter and that breeders overseas did that on purpose. 

Do European dogs skew lighter on the whole, yes. That is a result of several amazing studs generations ago. These top quality boys where used by many and now it is hard to find a pedigree in Europe that doesn't have them. In contrast the prolific impact dogs generations ago in the US were darker. 

But many top European breeders are working to add more color back into their programs. The difference is they don't pick solely by color. If the best dog to improve their girl is light that is the boy they will use. They will almost always use a different stud every time as they try to improve their dogs.

By contrast almost ever beeeder that advertises English Creams chooses to repeatedly breed to their own dog or a conveniently located dog as long as it is light. There are literally hundreds of nice dogs in the US and Canada but they only seem to care about making maximum profit on pale puppies. 

This is why it is very common that great breeders in England and Western Europe often won't sale to the US at all.


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## MyLilly (May 26, 2021)

Sarah J said:


> *Difference in Behavior/Trainability between "English Cream" vs American Standard?*
> 
> Do you know if there's a difference in behavior between English Cream variety and American Standard GRs? I would assume not, but I'm asking because of interactions I've had with my vet and the training facility I go to. But first, some background about Trudy:
> 
> ...


I'm wondering the same! Our dear Holly was a standard Golden and her behavior was quiet, loyal, and she was easy to train. Sadly we lost her after 15 wonderful years. We just got Lilly, a white/cream Golden and thus far her training has been outright embarrassing! She barks through puppy class, counter surfs and steals anything within reach (glasses, paperwork, and of course food), doesn't come when called and BARKS when we're preparing or eating dinner. At 5 1/2 months old, I worry her behavior is interfering with my bonding with her. She's goes from zoomie crazy to sleep in a matter of seconds. So yes, I do wonder if there are genetic behavioral issues with the while GRs.


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## 3goldens2keep (Feb 13, 2019)

Just like people much of who our dogs become is driven by genetics. Of course exceptions do occur. You can get a dog with no pedigree and they could turnout to be the best dog you ever have, but the ODDS are against it. But it could happen...

As pet owners, breeders, trainers, etc. we all learn to play the odds. I want my dogs to be healthy, live long, be trainable, look good, etc. I have know way of guaranteeing this, but I can improve my odds by paying attention to the dogs family pedigree and health clearances, not to mention the ages and reasons for death of grandparents, etc. 

The best you can do is improve your odds....or not! You choose...


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## pawsnpaca (Nov 11, 2014)

Just a theory, but in the US the vast majority of so-called "white" or "cream" Golden Retrievers will be coming from breeders who focus their breeding program on color (and corresponding sales) and often pay little to no attention to health (as evidenced by a lack of most if not all of the core clearances proscribed by the GRCA Code of Ethics) or temperament. While more nebulous and harder to "prove," it is likely that things like temperament and biddability are taking a backseat to appearance, and I suspect we will see a deterioration of these aspects in the dogs that come from these breeders, just as we see it in dogs from pet stores, puppy mills and some backyard breeders.

However... it's also true that every dog is an individual. My boy Dover was backyard bred and, BOY, was he a handful! BUT, with love and training he turned out to be an awesome working dog (sadly largely wasted on me as a novice handler) and ended up being a true heart dog. I also know we are constantly warning new puppy buyers to be cautious when buying puppies from even reputable breeders who specialize in "performance" dogs (bred to excel at obedience, agility, hunting, etc.), as the dog from these breeders may have too much energy and drive for the novice owner. 

As with all things... knowing your breeder, and the types of dogs they tend to breed, is a better predictor of personality and "trainability" than something as superficial as coat color...


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## MyLilly (May 26, 2021)

3goldens2keep said:


> Just like people much of who our dogs become is driven by genetics. Of course exceptions do occur. You can get a dog with no pedigree and they could turnout to be the best dog you ever have, but the ODDS are against it. But it could happen...
> 
> As pet owners, breeders, trainers, etc. we all learn to play the odds. I want my dogs to be healthy, live long, be trainable, look good, etc. I have know way of guaranteeing this, but I can improve my odds by paying attention to the dogs family pedigree and health clearances, not to mention the ages and reasons for death of grandparents, etc.
> 
> The best you can do is improve your odds....or not! You choose...


Please don't get me wrong. Despite Lilly's current behavior challenges, we're in LOVE with her! She's smart and energetic, just different from our last GR. We did check into her pedigree and her parents have registered health clearances (eye, heart and hips). She's a healthy, happy pup - just a handful!! LOL


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