# Panosteitis & High Protein Diet?



## kaisula (Sep 26, 2007)

Ok several mentioned that perhaps a too high protein diet may contribute to Pano, which Kai now has. Kai has been on Orijen LBP which is 42% protein and 16% fat. I know that there is still controversy on whether high protein contributes to the Pano so I am unsure if I should continue Kai on the Orijen LBP. Some studies indicate Calcium and Phosphorous levels are more of a contributing factor in rapid growth. When we started Kai on Orijen we too were cautious about the high protein so we emailed the company and got this response.
_*We believe the concern for large breed puppies isn't protein; it is the common byproduct of high protein diets which is ash and calcium and phosphorous. With dry dog foods, higher protein is generated through greater inclusions of meat meals and the meals are high in ash, which is a rich source of calcium and phosphorous. While science doesn't prove one way or the other, there is much debate over whether elevated calcium and phosphorous cause developmental problems in large breeds, by affecting the rate of development of the skeleton. Orijen uses special 'low ash' chicken ingredients to produce higher protein with moderate ash generating calcium and phosphorous levels that are suitable for large breed puppies. While there also used to be concern over higher protein levels affecting the growth of large breed puppies, this has really been debunked in recent years, although pet food producers with low protein foods will still argue the point. *_
_*Kind Regards from Canada,*_
_*Peter*_
_*Champion Foods*_

What would you do if your dog was diagnosed with Pano knowing the cause has never been determined? Would you just try to decrease his weight a little or would you switch to a food with lower protein? Maybe mixing the Orijen with Taste of the Wild (protein 32%, fat 18%) or Solid Gold Wolf Cub ( protein 28%, fat 12%)? If the disease comes and goes and eventually disappears how would I really know that a diet switch would be helping? I really like what Orijen is about and the ingredients so I would really hate taking him off it, but I sure don't want to be contributing to Pano. 
I am not wanting to start a food debate I would just like to know what you would do if you were in my situation? Thanks for any advice.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Great Dane Lady | Dog Health, Food, and Training Information has lots of info on pano.....and lots of other health, nutritional info. She has been a great dane breeder for years. Hope you find some good info there. You may even want to contact her... she does consults.


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## Thor's Mom (Feb 25, 2007)

I can only tell you what worked for us. Changing to a lower protein food worked wonders. I mean considerably lower than 42% - when I looked at your post at first I thought it was a typo. Basically your pups bones are growing too fast and you need to slow him down. (That's why it's also known as growing pains). I would disagree with what the manufacturer told you, because despite their loving their food, your dog has gotten pano. The choice is yours, but 42% protein seems way over the top for a growing puppy --- IMHO.


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

There is a lot of speculation right now about this on other boards for other breeds (Giant).

The key to keeping pups healthy is slow growth. Now...everyone KNOWS that the calcium/phosphorus ratio is crucial for proper growth. If that's skewed, there could be huge problems.

They also know that the more calories consumed, the faster the growth will be.

But protein? Well......I don't think anyone is real sure about that. Protein builds muscle. I don't believe it's been shown to speed up growth. (But then again...I'm not sure about that)

Generally, you'll find higher calcium/phosphorus ratios and higher fat levels in higher protein foods. But Orijen has addressed this issue. Even with high levels of protein, the calcium/phosphorus ratios are pretty close to what they should be (although in some of their formulas, are still just a tad high for growing Large/Giant breeds), and the percentage of fat is in a good range.

One thing you will find through anecdotal evidence of puppy owners.........IF there has been a problem with skeletal development, and the protein AND fat levels are cut back (which also usually lowers the calcium/phosphorus ratios), the problems can be stopped, if not reversed. 

So....is it the actual protein which has caused the problems? Or not?

When it comes to Pano, I don't know. I haven't seen studies on the impact that protein alone has on the growth of a puppy.


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## AquaClaraCanines (Mar 5, 2006)

Pano is bizarre, unpredictable, skips generations and dogs, and is most likely genetic


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

In every single case of Pano that I've seen personally over the last decade, the pup was overfed on either a adult diet or a regular puppy food diet. I have yet to see a GOLDEN pup that was fed a good LBP formula in the proper daily ration that developed Pano. 

IMHDAO Overfeeding has more to do with the problem than the type of food itself. Puppies should be kept lean through the first two years of life.


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

SC.....do you mean "overfed" as in too fast growth (height and weight) due to too much food, or simply overweight?

I've never seen a pup on an ALS food get Pano either. But then again....I'm going by our gang, who weren't allowed to get too big or too heavy too fast.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Ardeagold said:


> SC.....do you mean "overfed" as in too fast growth (height and weight) due to too much food, or simply overweight?


Overfeeding promotes rapid growth. Excessive Overfeeding turns pup into "Porky". Either of these situations is no good.


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

Do you feel that the "type" of food makes a difference?

What about the protein question? Do you think that would be a contributing factor? 

Based on what I've read (which isn't anywhere near all that's out there), I tend to see protein as a muscle builder, but not necessarily something that promotes fast growth, or pano.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Ardeagold said:


> Do you feel that the "type" of food makes a difference?
> 
> What about the protein question? Do you think that would be a contributing factor?
> 
> Based on what I've read (which isn't anywhere near all that's out there), I tend to see protein as a muscle builder, but not necessarily something that promotes fast growth, or pano.


While the type of food enters into the equation, I think the amount is a larger concern. I don't see feeding a high protein diet as a Pano concern.


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## kaisula (Sep 26, 2007)

Thanks everyone for all your imput. I would hate to think that it was the brand of food that caused the problems. I have cut his rations to 1 3/4 cup 2 times a day instead of 2 cups/2 x day. I have also substituted Solid Gold Wolfcub or Taste of the Wild Bison/Venison for 1/4 of the Orijen. So this should cut back on his portions as well as the amount of protein (just in case). He no longer gets as many treats since he is done with obedience school so that should also help. Although he is a counter surfer and stole a piece of garlic bread 3 nights ago and last night he stole some fried ocra. I try to be real careful about the food on the counter, but he is a sneaky little thing. He is not doing well today. Much more limping and inability to put too much weight on it. I just remembered today that Kai from the very start would sit up and his right leg would kind of shake and I always thought it was because he didn't have his paw firmly on the ground. I wonder if this was some kind of early warning sign? Anyway I sure appreciate everyones comments. You all are so knowledgeable about raising Goldens.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

You may want to look at Dog Food Analysis - Reviews of kibble Orijen is one of their top ranked foods. However, their only "con" for this food is that it may be too high protein for large breed pups. I feed a high protein, grain free food also, but didn't until they were full grown.


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## kaisula (Sep 26, 2007)

Penny & Maggies Mom, 
I used those food ratings to help me make my decision about which food to feed. I have been searching all day on the computer and all I can find are conflicting answers about protein. I found this interesting bit, scroll down to alan_q and then petros. orijen food
So am I still confused, you bet. It was easier raising babies. But with so much conflicting data I am not so sure I will completely take my pups off of Orijen. I think I will substitute 1 meal with a lower protein food like Wolfcub or Hunden Flocken. If anyone can think of a better substitution please let me know because I am about to bash my head into the wall worrying about this. :no:


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