# drive versus guarding



## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

I could use some help getting my head around 'drive' versus 'resource guarding'....

Trace is a 15.5 month old, intact male. The boy has plenty of drive to retrieve...at least plenty for my needs! He will not leave a bumper 'out there' land or water. He has a nice retrieve to hand and his obedience is well underway...the problem comes in when someone else has a bumper in their mouth or approaches him when he has a bumper in his mouth. On land he evades (losing focus on the delivery)...in the water he growls...

We seem to have tipped into the resource guarding zone...
example: we were retrieving in water yesterday and he would growl if another dog attempted to take his bumper. he would bully and grab the bumpers out of the mouths of other dogs....his attitude is it is my job to fetch up the bumpers....ALL OF THEM - EVERY SINGLE LAST ONE OF THEM!!!!! Needless to say it is intimidating to the other dogs trying to enjoy their retrieving...

Is there a way to dump the guarding without losing the intense desire to retrieve?

Is the best answer to avoid him being in situations where there are multiple dogs retrieving at the same time? (train alone or at least one at a time)

He speed and intensity are definitely higher in the presence of other dogs...regardless if they are retrievers or not...


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Hi Mary,

As a first step, I would start to teach him to honor a working dog. (Having him stay while another dog works - Trace would be on a short lead/tab at first)

Also, when you work him alone do not allow him to retrieve each bumper thrown. You retrieve half of them or so. He needs to wait for your release before he gets his reward (eg his bumper). 

These exercises will build his self-control and not interfere with his drive - in fact it will probably increase his desire. Until he learns that all bumpers/birds/dumbbells etc are not his, I personally would not work him off-lead around other dogs retrieving anything. 

He may not be guarding so much as not understanding he can only retrieve on cue.

Hope this helps..

-Sharon


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

It's funny, because you could see some of that in the body language between Trace and Tucker in one of the swimming pictures with the bumper. Could some of it be his macho macho man age group? What if he has to sit-stay with you while another dog fetches, then he gets his turn, then he sit-stays again even if it has to be on a leash. Maybe he would come to terms with the sad fact that he cant have every one? I have to do this with Tango once on a while bc otherwise Tally would never ever get to retrieve.


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

good advice Sharon and much appreciated.
Glad to hear that learning a bit of self-control is not likely to interfere with drive...
Thankfully he will sit and wait his turn - he gets all-a-quiver to be released...and it drive him crazy if Liberty doesn't come in as fast as he thinks she should...I swear you can hear him say "FASTER, FASTER....she will toss more if you would only hurry up!!!!!"
Interesting idea to retrieve some of the dummies myself.....hmmmm...that would certainly get his gears to turning...I can just see his jaw drop the first time I try this LOLOL

Oh Yes Jill there is no mistaking his body language...he can be quite intimidating...
I wish I could blame it on his machismo....but truth be told, he has been an intense retriever since he was a wee pup...I have pictures of him around 10-12 weeks old with the same intensity...he has been 'practicing' this "no bumper left behind" behavior for a long time...the growling and grabbing is a new twist...

Looks like it is time to kick the expectations up a notch with the dear boy!
When you know better you do better right? 
Makes me wonder what he could do in the hands of a good field trainer.... <sigh>


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

I think it's more resource guarding....

My border collie is an insane fetching machine, will retrieve and retrieve and retrieve - but when we're out with the other dogs, if they get it first or bug him, he'll drop it. Even strange dogs, he'll keep the ball if he gets it first but is fine with the other dogs getting it as well - no aggression issues at all (intact male).

Foodwise he WILL be a 'jerk' and in the past would lay wherever the food was thawing and snark at others for breathing. Or snap at the other dogs around mealtime... but he's a lot better now that I've not allowed him to act like that (he'd get walked to a crate away from whatever he'd be trying to protect....).

I agree with the 'honoring' work for him, and personally wouldn't have him retrieving with other dogs around bugging him - I had to do that with Bender when she was younger as she would go get the item then race in front of other dogs to start 'keepaway' and totally give me the paw as far as bringing anything to me...

Lana


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

LibertyME said:


> good advice Sharon and much appreciated.
> Glad to hear that learning a bit of self-control is not likely to interfere with drive...
> Thankfully he will sit and wait his turn - he gets all-a-quiver to be released...and it drive him crazy if Liberty doesn't come in as fast as he thinks she should...I swear you can hear him say "FASTER, FASTER....she will toss more if you would only hurry up!!!!!"
> Interesting idea to retrieve some of the dummies myself.....hmmmm...that would certainly get his gears to turning...I can just see his jaw drop the first time I try this LOLOL
> ...


I would never tolerate that Macho bravado from one of my dogs - harsh statement I know - but while drive is important I separate it from resource guarding - they are not one and the same and correcting for one does not limit the other. The bottomline is there are behaviors I'd work through and maybe even tolerate and others that I would never tolerate...period, end of story. Resource guarding from a golden is one of them.

I would absolutely prevent him from being the clean-up dog collecting all of the bumpers - he needs to learn that they are not HIS resource. 

If it were my dog and that behavior continued (posturing, resource guarding, etc) those balls would be off faster than he could think about it....

Erica


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

Thanks Erica...I respect your thoughts...
Trust me, the rules are gonna change...


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

The real obvious answer here is, no gang-style fetching sessions, and if so, you need to TEACH him that the ONE bumper he has is his, and he can't steal anyone else's. This applies to the OTHER dogs too, so they don't try to take his.
This behavior has nothing to do with retrieving desire and everything to do with resource guarding. If you are planning on running in hunt tests, unless something big screws up in the test you will never have the situation of two dogs going for one bird, or even another dog in his immediate area while he has a bird. How is he with toys at home?
I would caution doing too much restraint or no-bird training at this point. I think that is a right answer to the wrong question. You do too much of that and he is going to start doubting if those are his birds -- and then you've got another problem on your hand. Absolutely demand steadiness and obedience, but don't cast doubt in his mind that he needs to GO and get the bird --- that will undermine your field training and his enthusiasm.
Bottom line -- no bumpers if other dogs are loose.


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

LibertyME said:


> Thanks Erica...I respect your thoughts...
> Trust me, the rules are gonna change...


Punk kids - whatcha gonna do with 'em?


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

Mary, I agree with everyone else. We have always used training sessions where they retrieve one at a time and have to sit/stay while the other dog retrieves. If they break, they wait again. 
We have always had one golden who would take it from the other if they had their way, so they have had to learn to wait till their name is called. : )

Good Luck!


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

Ive not had a problem with toys in the house...
Having many dogs sharing a smalll space dictates much obedience in the house...I don't keep anything around that any of them would feel they need to guard. 

He doesn't guard space, people or food.

Thankfully the bumper guarding in groups is new - early enough that he will adapt easily to some structure/rules.

I think of group retrieves as a relaxing way to spend time and energy...my females share this view. However clearly his reaction is not relaxed...he needs increased expectations of his behavior and to set and teach 'the rules'. When he has some rules under his belt I think he will be able to get back to enjoying and focusing on the retrieve - rather then the competition. Frankly the other dogs in the group will be able to enjoy the sessions more too....


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

LibertyME said:


> I could use some help getting my head around 'drive' versus 'resource guarding'....
> 
> Trace is a 15.5 month old, intact male. The boy has plenty of drive to retrieve...at least plenty for my needs! He will not leave a bumper 'out there' land or water. He has a nice retrieve to hand and his obedience is well underway...the problem comes in when someone else has a bumper in their mouth or approaches him when he has a bumper in his mouth. On land he evades (losing focus on the delivery)...in the water he growls...
> 
> ...


Resource Guarding?? No, I don't think so. 

You've kind of created the problem by putting the dog into a situation it hasn't been prepared for. The dog needs a good amount of formal training prior to being put into a situation with multiple dogs and prey. 

Make no mistake, there is a big difference between prey objects (birds, bunnies, bumpers) and toys (tennis balls, kongs, etc.). Prey objects belong to YOU, not the dog. The dogs' job is to find and retrieve your property to you. Why would you let another strange dog(s) stick it's nose in and take your stuff? That kind of situation should never be allowed to develop, especially with a young dog that is still learning his job.

I would suggest that you obtain a formal training program (books, videos, etc.) and follow it. 

There is not much good that can be achieved by tossing a bunch of bumpers in front of a group of dogs, unless you're intentionally going out of your way to start a dog fight.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Definitely sounds like RG.

What if a group of dogs are out retrieving something other than bumpers? Tennis balls, perhaps? Is his behavior the same? Or is it just that bumpers are high-value enough that, in a group, he'll guard them?

Just a few ideas:

* Game over at the first sign of snarkiness. So, he has a bumpers and he's flanking another dog who has a bumper, trying to intimidate that dog into dropping his -- bam -- clear NRM and he's in a down. Sort of the dog version of Control-Alt-Delete on the computer!

* He has a bumper, another dog comes near and he growls --- too bad, he has to relinquish his bumper to you and nobody gets it (well, YOU get it, not a dog). Sucks to be them.

* I'd also set out to train a chasing recall and work up to being able to call him off a thrown bumper. (Secretly, one of my funnest memories of training w/ Quiz is when I did a chasing recall off a DUCK that I'd sent him out after. We were training with an avid field guy who was also an obedience judge... he was impressed!)

* Like the others have said, a little "Learn to Wait Your Turn" training is also a good thing.

And no, I don't think any of this will negatively affect his drive, so long as you're not using harshly corrective training methods.


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