# Biting and aggression



## FosterGolden (Mar 10, 2014)

He is a baby, an infant puppy, he is not being dominant. 13 week old puppies are not out to dominate their owners. Is the puppy on a schedule? What is it? Puppies need a lot of sleep and sometimes they act up when tired and a nap is in order. For some puppies, a forced nap BEFORE they get cranky is best. 

It sounds to me like you are spending a lot of time fighting the puppy. It's like having an argument with a two year old. Try setting him up for success. Puppy proof your home. Put him on a schedule. Show him what you do want instead of focusing on corrections for what you don't want. Exercise his body and his mind. Go to puppy class. 

You don't need to be assertive, just be a good leader with consistency, fairness and patience.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

He is being a puppy. I hope that you are familiar with current ways of dealing with your puppy's biting.


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## Nate83 (Jul 13, 2017)

Sorry I completely disageee that a puppy can't be dominant. That is when they start it, first with there littermates then with a less assertive owner. Angel was dominant for the first week, until I started to put her on her side and hold her there. Yes she wormed around whined and didn't like it but after a few days of that she listens to me and doesn't bite or growl, my wife hasn't done that and Angel still growls at my wife and tries to nip. If you do not show them you are the boss and (alpha) they will take the position for themselves it is completely normal. Yes nipping and little growling is puppy behavior but most people can tell the difference between a puppy bite and growl and a NOT puppy bite or growl. Just be assertive and consitant with rules. He will get it they are smart.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Nate83... and you wonder why your girl is fearful? This might work on a german shepherd puppy but goldens have a much softer temperament. They are far more sensitive and this type of treatment will backfire on you.

There was a post recently where the people did the same thing and now they are working with a trainer as the dog started biting everyone in the house because it was so fearful. 

Read the post it about it's a puppy not a problem. This biting is normal behavior and goes away as they get their adult teeth in. There are so many training videos on how to stop the puppy biting that are far more acceptable for a golden than this. You are creating a fearful dog and in the future a fearful dog is always the one that begins to bite.


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## Scoutland (Jul 14, 2017)

Thank you. I'm just looking for support and encouragement. Sometimes I forget he's a puppy. I live within high expectations, especially with my kids (I know it's not the best ?).
My intent is to give my puppy the best life possible but these times are trying.


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## Nate83 (Jul 13, 2017)

As I just explained her fear is at things that have nothing to do with me. When it came her biting i would assert a zero tolerance on it. I do not haul off and best Angel quite the opposite I am far more gentle with her then I was with Athena. If my life says no Angel with not listen and continue to do whatever she wants I say no and she will stop dead, yes she will cower and run behind Athena but I make sure to call her over in a gentle voice and give her love. I use a deep man voice that get her attention.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Be careful when you're offering a treat or toy to redirect behavior. 

You don't want to do so in such a way that the pup believes he is being rewarded for the unwanted behavior. When it comes to training a dog, timing is a big deal.


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## GoldenMom999 (Apr 14, 2017)

Maybe more exercise...a tired puppy is a happy puppy. Puppy have the "it's all about me" mentality...so when he bites you what is it he wants or is trying to avoid? Put a leash on instead of putting him in the crate. Calmly open his bitey mouth if attached to your arm, say, "no biting," once, stand up and hold the leash so that he can't bite you and then just quietly wait...he's a baby..once the temper tantrum is over he will look up at you for what's next. Then you say, "Good boy." That's the biggest reward of all....your attention. Give it to him when he earns it, not when he demands it.


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## FosterGolden (Mar 10, 2014)

Nate83 said:


> Sorry I completely disageee that a puppy can't be dominant. That is when they start it, first with there littermates then with a less assertive owner. Angel was dominant for the first week, until I started to put her on her side and hold her there. Yes she wormed around whined and didn't like it but after a few days of that she listens to me and doesn't bite or growl, my wife hasn't done that and Angel still growls at my wife and tries to nip. If you do not show them you are the boss and (alpha) they will take the position for themselves it is completely normal. Yes nipping and little growling is puppy behavior but most people can tell the difference between a puppy bite and growl and a NOT puppy bite or growl. Just be assertive and consitant with rules. He will get it they are smart.


This is REALLY BAD and outdated advice. 

Yes, you can scare your puppy/child/employee/etc. into being obedient.


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## FosterGolden (Mar 10, 2014)

Nate83 said:


> As I just explained her fear is at things that have nothing to do with me. When it came her biting i would assert a zero tolerance on it. I do not haul off and best Angel quite the opposite I am far more gentle with her then I was with Athena. If my life says no Angel with not listen and continue to do whatever she wants I say no and she will stop dead, yes she will cower and run behind Athena but I make sure to call her over in a gentle voice and give her love. I use a deep man voice that get her attention.


She is afraid of you and does not trust you. Just because you do something nice after you scare the bejesus out of her, does not mean this form of whatever you are doing is OK. Sure, it works, because she is scared. But really, if she continues to misbehave, she is not trained. If my dog did bad things all day and only stopped when I yelled, that means he doesn't know but I scare him enough to stop what he is doing. A trained dog would just not do these things and your wife wouldn't have these issues. It's like kids that act up but are angels when Dad comes home. They are not "trained" so to speak, just afraid of Dad. Difference being that the kids know what they are doing, the dog does not.


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## Pytheis (Mar 17, 2016)

puddles everywhere said:


> This might work on a german shepherd puppy but goldens have a much softer temperament. They are far more sensitive and this type of treatment will backfire on you.


I just wanted to jump in and say... NO, NO, NO!!

I am a very active member over on the German Shepherd Forum. This topic has been discussed many times. This method (trying to dominate a dog by rolling it on its back) is not safe with ANY dog of ANY breed. It is a very bad idea. A German shepherd will fear you just as much as any other breed, and that fear will turn into aggression very quickly. Having a "harder" temperament does not in any way mean that it would work on a German shepherd puppy. No matter the breed, it is an extremely bad plan.


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## Nate83 (Jul 13, 2017)

i will be defering any statements that may get me in trouble


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## Cephalotus (Dec 10, 2016)

Nate83 said:


> As I just explained her fear is at things that have nothing to do with me. When it came her biting i would assert a zero tolerance on it. I do not haul off and best Angel quite the opposite I am far more gentle with her then I was with Athena. If my life says no Angel with not listen and continue to do whatever she wants I say no and she will stop dead, yes she will cower and run behind Athena but I make sure to call her over in a gentle voice and give her love. I use a deep man voice that get her attention.


Having zero tolerance for a puppy that bites is the same as having zero tolerance for a baby that cries. It's not a reasonable expectation to have.


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## NothingbutGold (Apr 2, 2017)

I completely agree with FosterGolden. I too have a 13 week old golden. He too tends to bite a lot, especially when overtired. Morning and evenings are when he bites the most. The way I handle it is to always have toys or chews close at hand when I am petting or playing with him. As soon as he goes for my hands or arms, I immediately put something else in his mouth. If he can't settle himself and gets really out of control with the biting, I put him in his pen for a short time out and refuse to pet him. Once he's calm, I let him out but if he starts up again, I don't give him anymore pets. I have found antlers and hollow marrow bones good chews to divert biting. Our breeder suggested pouring a little chicken broth on either to hold his attention longer. If he has a good chew on something he has a tendency to bite us less. 

In addition, our pup is on a very consistent schedule. I recently went back to work as a teacher. I felt when I was home, I was at his mercy. Now that I am away, and I have a neighbor checking in on him three times a day, he seems more settled. I think when I was home with him, he didn't sleep well and being overtired, he would bite more.


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## NothingbutGold (Apr 2, 2017)

Oh, and my pup seems like he gets aggressive when he bites us but I don't think it's aggression at all. I think he views us as big play toys and when we pull away, he comes back at us because he thinks it's a game.


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## Gleepers (Apr 20, 2016)

Scoutland said:


> Thank you. I'm just looking for support and encouragement. Sometimes I forget he's a puppy. I live within high expectations, especially with my kids (I know it's not the best ?).
> My intent is to give my puppy the best life possible but these times are trying.


My advise. Put the puppy in the crate and go out and go shopping, see a movie, grab some coffee with a friend. What ever works for you. 
You have a few more months of overwhelming furry sh!t head coming and spending all day every day with him sounds like it's wearing on you. 
I needed to walk away from the dog before someone got hurt several times. 
We are at 18mo now and it's SO much better. Far from perfect but we mostly are able to live together in happy companionship


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## alphadude (Jan 15, 2010)

Against my better judgement, I am going to weigh in here.

Trust me when I tell you, not *all* golden retrievers are 'soft' or docile as compared to GSDs or any other breed for that matter. Additionally, it is absolutely possible to have a 4 month old GR puppy with a dominant personality or even an alpha. I know this beyond any doubt because I had one, his name was Axl, and he was a textbook alpha male from day 1 until his untimely death from hemangio @ 8.5 years old. His aggressive, destructive, puppyhood behavior was borderline psychotic.

He turned out to be a once in a lifetime dog, not in spite of those qualities, but because of them. All he really needed was to learn that he was not in fact the boss, and he needed a job to focus all of his energy on. A tired golden puppy is a well behaved one. 

To be clear, I am not advocating beating, 'alpha rolling', or physically mistreating a puppy (or dog) in any way, but in my mind there is nothing whatsoever wrong with physically restraining a puppy that is going wild and trying to sink his teeth into anything that moves. Axl was 'escorted' to his cage on more than a few occasions.


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## BarkWin (Apr 5, 2017)

It's incredibly disappointing to read the "alpha" theory of dog behavior on here as it has been DISPROVEN completely and the training methods around that concept are outdated, harsh, unnecessary and bordering on abuse.


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## alphadude (Jan 15, 2010)

BarkWin said:


> It's incredibly disappointing to read the "alpha" theory of dog behavior on here as it has been DISPROVEN completely and the training methods around that concept are outdated, harsh, unnecessary and bordering on abuse.


First off, there has never been a dog treated with more love, respect and kindness than Axl was...ask anyone on this forum. 

Secondly, I don't give a rip what 'the experts' say. I rely on my own experience and observations, and do my *own* training, which thus far has proven extremely effective. 

Lastly, perhaps you should log a few more posts before you start getting snarky and frankly, insulting. Just a thought.


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## Nate83 (Jul 13, 2017)

BarkWin said:


> It's incredibly disappointing to read the "alpha" theory of dog behavior on here as it has been DISPROVEN completely and the training methods around that concept are outdated, harsh, unnecessary and bordering on abuse.


It isn't abuse need to understand that. Some people take offense to that.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

A trainers motto.... if the dog is not behaving the way you want don't blame the dog, it's always the trainer. 
If it's not working do something different, listen to suggestions from people on this forum with years of working with this breed, seek out a trainer, watch video's, read on the best way to work with your breed. Find a class and watch if you can't attend but change what you are doing. You are the one that needs to change, the pup is responding to you.. they aren't evil, they are a puppy.
The secret to teaching any soft tempered dog is to give them something else to do. The only behavior they know is to be a puppy so teach them a new skill, you can't penalize them for being exactly what they are. If they are attacking your pant legs, teach them an alternate behavior they can be rewarded for. Be smarter than the puppy!


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## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

Nate83 said:


> It isn't abuse need to understand that. Some people take offense to that.


Done the wrong way it absolutely can be abuse. That's why I struggle with people that recommend this, because you don't know how experienced the other person is at reading dog behavior. What if this puppy is simply being a puppy and not dominant or aggressive, and you just recommended pinning them down. That can damage the relationship and create a fearful dog. And if the dog is aggressive you are giving advice that could make it worse and potentially get someone hurt down the road. The most you should recommend if you think the puppy is aggressive is to seek out the opinion of a professional. Giving advice like that on a public forum will likely do more harm than good.


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

I think we really need to re-think the misconception that 'inappropriate' behavior/unwanted behavior (from the owner's perspective) is 'bad' behavior in our dogs thus 'requires' punishment to cause it to cease. If we can focus on teaching our dogs, what 'to do' and how, when and where, to do it, we can eliminate the vast majority of 'unwanted' behaviors, and therefore eliminate the tendency to 'correct' our dogs for their mistakes.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Cephalotus said:


> Having zero tolerance for a puppy that bites is the same as having zero tolerance for a baby that cries. It's not a reasonable expectation to have.


This viewpoint is just plain silly.

Puppies should not be putting teeth to people, period! 
Too many people allow inappropriate behavior to become established and escalate before they even begin to think about doing something about it. 

It is not ok for puppies to put teeth on humans. It isn't a "phase" they go through. It is inappropriate behavior that needs to be stopped before it gets out of hand.


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## Nate83 (Jul 13, 2017)

Penny I was going to get defensive until I reread your post. You are right if people can't read the dogs behavior then they will misunderstand stuff. Still saying it's abuse is strong words for dog loving people. Pinning done the right way isn't abuse the mother dog pins the pup, the pup whines and worms around. It isn't abusing the pup it is giving it a life lesson. Older dogs will pin roudy pups, again not abuse it is how a dog shows enough is enough. I had a very long and detailed and insightful talk with puddle 1 hour and 10 mins to be exact. I have come to realize pinning isn't going to work on my Angel she is too timid. So I am going to go a total different way with her.
Athena when she was a pup I pinned 1 time and she stopped her biting and raised tail aggressive attuide. 10 years later I get nothing but praise on how great Athena is. She has never bit anyone person or dog, she is calm around kids and protective as well. She isn't aggressive she is VERY even tempered.


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## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

@Nate83 - Exactly, my post wasn't saying what you were doing was abusive, its just dangerous to recommend that to another person who may not be reading their dog correctly. Because who knows, they may interpret it differently than you intended and actually be abusive in their technique. 

Good luck with Angel, I really think you will see some great benefits to changing your strategy. I have an almost 5 month old male golden that I've been trying to raise with mostly positive training and its paying off leaps and bounds. He's such a confident guy and while yes, he does get mouthy (he's in the process of loosing his last baby teeth) but I don't sit there and let him chew on me. I redirect him or separate myself from him. He was a star in puppy class and even the instructor commented on our relationship. I worked hard to make myself the most interesting thing in his world and he trusts me 100%! Now we just have to survive the upcoming teenage months


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## FosterGolden (Mar 10, 2014)

Dogs that are called "alpha" or "dominant" are not so. They might be confident, intelligent, not much in the way of a team player, and possibly need a job. Dogs that need jobs can be pushy because they are bored. Or they can be pushy because they are smart and learned that being pushy means they get to do something fun (in competition dogs, isn't this what people want, a dog to push them to work?). Some dogs lack in confidence and are highly defensive, which is not an alpha or dominance trait, but may come across as one. Look at bullies in school. Are bullies the confident ones? Do dogs with healthy temperaments fight for dominance? 

Sometimes families get working line dogs and because the dog wants to work and if it doesn't get to work, takes that mental and physical energy and puts it to use in not so family friendly ways, people call them alpha, dominant or bad. I cannot tell you how many dogs like this pushed people into dog sports because they eventually took the dog to class when things were not going well and perhaps that trainer does puppy/pet classes as well as competition classes and suggested giving the dog a job, like it was bred to have. 

Pet dog breeders often breed dogs with working dog backgrounds (Labs for example, at the pet dog level and even from puppy mills, typically have field trial champion lineage because non-conformation people, at least in the past, have not been selective with their stud dogs) so pet people are basically getting poorly bred working line dogs. I would be willing to bet that all "Silver Labs" are working line Labs (Lab mixes, technically), in fact. This is probably the poorest bred Lab in all of the poorly bred Labs, with few exceptions, and most if no all "Silver Labs" (and their "Champagne" and "Charcoal" cousins) go to pet families. Take the dog's general nature (to work) add maybe even add some not so great temperament issues and then put him with a suburban family with three kids and see what you get. 

Working dogs need structure, leadership, a job, mental and physical exercise, attention, a schedule and consistency. Most families cannot provide this or do not know this is what is required for this dog. Still, it does not make the dog alpha or dominant. Some dogs are not team players. Maybe that is in their nature. Or maybe the owners were hands off and the dog learned to self-reward. A dog who is left to self-reward and ignores the owner because it found something better to do is not dominant, alpha or bad. 

A lot of things work in training because dogs are amazing creatures who are generally trainable and want to please. They are incredibly forgiving and patient and they are overall resilient. So many misunderstood dogs came out the other side just fine despite bad training. Dogs try so hard. Everyone was alpha rolling their dogs when the Monks of New Skeet published that book a decade (or two? - time flies!) ago. Now people are doing the Cesar Milan thing where they go "sssshhhhht" and poke at their dog. People still string up their dogs to make sure they understand that they govern everything, including the air they breathe, and those dogs may do well in competition. Someone did that locally at a seminar less than two years ago and while many were disgusted, several thought it was fine, because this person gets results. And, because something works for a dog or two, everyone thinks they were right in their training and assessment of their dog's temperament and continue thinking along the same lines because it worked at one point. But, the truth is, for every dog if there are at least ten options to train something, at least seven of those things will probably work, so in a sense, we are never really right or wrong when it comes to dog training. It's much bigger than that, however. Just because it works doesn't mean it's right. We learn every day about dog behavior as it's not been widely studied until very recently. So, people will continue to do what worked for them in the past, sometimes ignoring other potential issues or being unaware of the fact that a shut down dog is not an obedient dog but a scared dog who learned that doing nothing at all is safest.


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## myluckypenny (Nov 29, 2016)

FosterGolden said:


> ...I cannot tell you how many dogs like this pushed people into dog sports because they eventually took the dog to class when things were not going well and perhaps that trainer does puppy/pet classes as well as competition classes and suggested giving the dog a job, like it was bred to have...


This is exactly how I got involved in dog sports! My two year old golden is field bred with endless energy. She needed an outlet and I discovered a new passion in dog training and sports. We are still trying to find which sport fits her best, but it is a lot of fun learning as we go. I really like the Denise Fenzi's saying to "Train the dog in front of you".


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## Cpc1972 (Feb 23, 2015)

I totally get what my lucky penny is saying because that happened to us. When Chloe was a tiny puppy and had a vet check the vet showed my mom how to lightly put her on her side and hold her down to keep her from biting. Of course we don't believe in this. But my mom told my dad what the vet did. Then he started doing it when she would bite. But my dad is always over the top with everything. So he would do it a lot more intense then what the vet did. Luckily he only did it a few times and it didn't bother Chloe. She is super attached to my dad. But it goes to show you the person doing it might not be harming but telling someone else to do it might take it to far.

A golden though should never cowher to its owner.


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## rabernet (Feb 24, 2015)

myluckypenny said:


> This is exactly how I got involved in dog sports! My two year old golden is field bred with endless energy. She needed an outlet and I discovered a new passion in dog training and sports. We are still trying to find which sport fits her best, but it is a lot of fun learning as we go. I really like the Denise Fenzi's saying to "Train the dog in front of you".


Same! That's why Noah dock dives and is learning nosework (and hopefully soon tracking). And our dock diving coach is setting up a lure course on their property - they also do agility and competition frisbee. And the book "Train the Dog in Front of You" is also a great book! We're avid Fenzi-ites!


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

NothingbutGold said:


> Oh, and my pup seems like he gets aggressive when he bites us but I don't think it's aggression at all. I think he views us as big play toys and when we pull away, he comes back at us because he thinks it's a game.


Yes! Exactly!


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## ceegee (Mar 26, 2015)

Scoutland said:


> I have a sweet 13 week old boy who is good 70 percent of the time and a complete wreck 30 percent of the time. My dog has a dominant personality (just what I needed.....kidding).
> Lately when I try to redirect him when he starts biting he escalates and clamps down beyond hard. I have holes all over. He growls and fights me in a vicious manner. I try to scoop him up to put him inhis crate and he attempts to bite my face. Please help me through this. I need a well behaved dog. I'm home with him 20 hours a day but am starting to feel like this behavior is going to become a huge problem.
> FYI I'm very capable of asserting myself and I feel like he knows I'm in charge.


What training have you done with your pup? Have you been to puppy class? Have you trained the basic commands (sit, down, stand, stay, walk on leash)? What kind of mental stimulation is your puppy getting?

FWIW your pup doesn't sound "dominant", he sounds bored.

If you need a well-behaved dog, the ONLY way to achieve that is to train him. Training takes time and effort, and you need to know what you're doing. If you haven't already done so, try and find a good training school, one that uses positive training techniques, and enroll for a class that will teach you how to train your dog. A good puppy class or basic obedience class should do this. If you're already in class, ask the trainer for help with the biting.

Biting humans is inappropriate and your pup needs to learn that. Using the crate is a good idea. When he bites you, pick him up gently and put him in the crate for a time-out (short: a minute or so). This will only work if you do it every single time he bites you. I'm not a fan of redirecting by giving toys, because as Swampcollie said earlier, if you don't do it right, the dog will think you're rewarding him for biting, and the behaviour will get worse, not better. In other words, the pup will bite you in order to get the toy. Goldens are sociable, interactive dogs, and once they learn that biting gets them a time-out, away from the human, they tend to stop. If you want to redirect, teach some acceptable behaviours (sit, down, etc.), and redirect to that, then reward verbally or by petting the dog.

I don't know what you mean by "asserting" yourself, but honestly, with a pup, the best way of building a relationship in which you're the one in charge is to train the dog. The training sessions for a pup should be short (a few minutes, several times a day) and fun - more fun than anything else the pup might think of doing. Be upbeat. Be original. Use high-value treats (cheese, chicken, etc.). You need to be the most interesting thing in the pup's environment: the resource that provides outings, food, exercise, fun activities and so on.

Goldens were originally bred to be working dogs, and they're very intelligent. They need physical exercise and also mental stimulation to function well, especially when they're young.

I've raised two high-energy, performance-bred goldens in the last ten years. If you address the biting properly and consistently, the pup will understand that it isn't appropriate and will stop doing it.


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## Scoutland (Jul 14, 2017)

I agree that he's not aggressive, I was just having a moment. It's hard having young kids and a puppy. 
He could be bored but I try to keep him busy or interested in something.
I'll keep y'all posted.....I do love him


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