# Conformation Question - Puppy Class



## Christen113 (Dec 3, 2014)

Is a golden supposed to be at his full height to be entered in the 6-9 month puppy class? I'm pretty sure I read that somewhere but at a show a couple weeks ago, there's no way that the puppy that won was at its full height. Just curious because I'd planned to enter Cooper in a couple shows but at 5.5 months he's still on the short side. How old was your golden when he reached his full height? Cooper is my 6th and I still can't remember


----------



## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Yes, there is no allowance in the standard for a puppy to be under or over the standard. A puppy who is under the standard should not be awarded a win and should be disqualified.

The standard would need to be changed to make allowances for puppies being undersized.

Now a male puppy can go all the way down to 22 inches and still be within standard, and a female puppy can down to 20 1/2 inches.

From the Standard:

Size, Proportion, Substance -- Males 23-24 inches in height at withers; females 21 1/2-22 1/2 inches. Dogs up to one inch above or below standard size should be proportionately penalized. Deviation in height of more than one inch from the standard shall disqualify.


----------



## rabernet (Feb 24, 2015)

Purely from a curious point of view - at what age are unaltered goldens at their adult height? It sounds like by at least 6 months from the original post? 

I say unaltered, because I understand altering change the hormones and can allow the dog to get taller than standard.


----------



## Christen113 (Dec 3, 2014)

Tahnee GR said:


> Yes, there is no allowance in the standard for a puppy to be under or over the standard. A puppy who is under the standard should not be awarded a win and should be disqualified.
> 
> The standard would need to be changed to make allowances for puppies being undersized.
> 
> ...




Thanks! That's what I thought but wanted to be sure. Linda, when do your dogs reach their full height? I know my breeder said that the female that she kept is almost at full height now so it seems Cooper is developing more slowly.


----------



## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

I have had dogs grow at very different rates-I've had males who were easily 23" at 6 months and others who didn't get there until closer to a year. I've had them add height all the way up to 2+ years of age, and muscle and chest until 6 or 7.

My old boy Scout was within standard for height (barely) at 6 months-he ended up being 23 3/4" tall. At age 2, he was lanky and rangy with neither breadth or depth to his chest. By age 4, he was acceptable for the ring and around age 6, he looked like a body builder compared to some of the other dogs. His line was just very slow to mature.


----------



## Christen113 (Dec 3, 2014)

Interesting, thanks! 

I'm surprised that Cooper is on the slow end because his father won his first points at 6 months, 1 day. His mother is on the smaller side of normal though.


----------



## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

My puppy's litter has been very slow growing, something my breeder has never experienced before. She outcrossed her line one generation ago with an English line. She was told that puppies from this line take two years to get to their full height. Sailor's sister did very well in the puppy classes and sweeps, but know that she is -almost 18 month's she won't get away with being small until she grows more.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/golden-retriever-puppy-up-1-year/124217-height-check-6.html

If it helps... 

Bertie was 9 months old when he finally notched 23". He was about 12 months when I gave showing him some thought. I think his breeders get their dogs going by 9-12 months.... might be them growing the dogs out a little bit and seeing how they will turn out. Could also be height though.


----------



## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

They all grow at such different rates. I have shown my girl before she reached the height standard. Luckily we did not see a wicket from the judge. But I've never heard of a wicket coming out for golden retrievers. So I wouldn't really worry about it. Show your dogs now and don't worry about the height issue. What's the worst that will happen? Puppies in the 6-9 month class rarely win. But it's a great experience for your puppy.


----------



## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

I've heard about it, but I've never seen a judge wicket or DQ a puppy who is under standard, and yet I see such puppies at virtually every show. What usually happens is that the judge simply won't award the points to such a puppy, but will leave the puppy in the ring and even give it a class placement or win. While there is no allowance in the standard for puppies (though in other breeds there are), as a practical matter most of those puppies aren't in the ring to win the points, anyway, they are just getting experience or there to build majors. Particularly if DQing the puppy would break a major or result in a point reduction, judges are very hesitant to "punish" the other dogs competing, and will instead turn a blind eye to the height problem.

Some folks are very "letter of the law" in that regard, but I think most judges make mental allowances for puppies, even though it's not in the standard. Indeed, otherwise stone-faced judges will break out in grins over these small, misbehaving puppies. It's just a dog show. And there's no way such a puppy is going to take away anyone's points, so what's the big whoop? I've shown puppies that I knew were under sized, and no one ever said boo.


----------



## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Puppy class is a whole lot of fun if you have the time and patience. It is mainly the time to teach dogs how much fun is to be had in the ring, and to be polished little superstars in terms of their freestack by the time they hit Open. Certain judges LOVE to put up puppies, and even to put them best of breed over the specials if they prove a point about something the judge feels is lacking in goldens these days etc. I did see a beautiful pupI think showed by Rhonda Hovan wicketted, and then put up for the (deserved) win. 

My Lushie wasnt very competitive in puppy class though she was in standard heightwise- but she suddenly blossomed at 18 months and finished her CH and GCH with group placements in just a few whirlwind weeks. I am not sure if the struggle through puppy class was great bc it taught her the skills she needed or more of a huge time/ money waste ll bc she was all legs like a fawn and just didnt fit in with the other petite girl babies. On the other hand, Mystic was such a mature puppy, I worried he might be oversized/overdone by 24 months, and bc he was able to win repeatedly from puppy class and finish at 12 months, I worked for that goal. Luckily it turned out that though he was a big puppy, he is a medium- sized adult, and those fears didn't come true. However now he looks like a puppy more than a mature special in the sporting group ring, so he has to take a year off to mature. His mama won the National Specialty at age 4, so that is the age I will campaign him. With Copley, I waited to get him out until 12-18, but then we hadnt "paid our dues" and the handler was focused more on the Open and Am bred dogs saying we would have to wait our turn to be priority.


----------



## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

duplicate post (?)


----------



## Christen113 (Dec 3, 2014)

Well, that's interesting. I really am not expecting much other than experience but I hate to take the time to groom, the entry fees, etc. only to not be allowed to enter the ring because he's too small....so thank you for all of your input! I think we may go ahead and enter a couple for the experience if nothing else  I haven't built a wicket to be absolutely sure but I think he's about 2" under right now....by July hopefully he'll be closer and thanks to you, I think we'll still enter.


----------



## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Don't forget to get an official photo and post it here! We'd love to see new show dogs. I'm sure you'll all have fun. One of my favorite activities is walking around the show with my show dog. I like to help the public read the judging program and find their rings. My girl loves all the attention she gets meeting new people. So relax and have fun. Remember everyone at that show was at one time where you are now. Oh, and don't forget to shop!


----------



## HaliaGoldens (Jul 13, 2008)

I'm also thinking about entering my girl in a show and she will be just six months in June. She's not up to the height standard yet, but I think she will be at the low end of it by then. I'm just doing it for the practice and for her to get some experience. 

Question for all of you who show your dogs (it's been several years since I was showing my other girl, and I don't remember); would you recommend entering two different classes? She's obviously in the puppy 6-9 month bitches, but should I put her in novice bitch also? Is anyone else going to the Space Coast Kennel Club show in Orlando next month?


----------



## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

HaliaGoldens said:


> She's obviously in the puppy 6-9 month bitches, but should I put her in novice bitch also? Is anyone else going to the Space Coast Kennel Club show in Orlando next month?


Too far for me in AZ

Enter her in only one class ideally the one with the larger entry. Novice and Amature Owner tend to small/unused classes. For practice it is better to be in a big class as you get time to set the dog and time to play with the puppy. In a single or small class you will be pressured and watched the whole time, it is stressful. 
In AKC only dogs who are undefeated in their class can compete for winners bitch and the points. So if you entered in both classes and she won one but went second in the other, she could not go in to winners competition. Though it is unlikely for a 6 month old to win the points, my girl Tilt is proof it can and does happen. You would not want to loose your chance by not winning both classes.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

..... I didn't know you could enter multiple classes with the same dog....  

I'd show in the puppy class if you could. There's more leeway for growing up (not so much height, but coat and bone).


----------



## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

I also did not know you could enter in multiple classes. 

I was in my first show today, in the puppy class and puppy sweeps. After next week, she will be too old for the puppy classes. We did not place, but I felt the judge was more patient with us and tried her best to make me comfortable. I talked with her later on and she told me my hands were shaking. At one point Sailor sat down in the ring for her, I was horrified, and she said, just let her so I can see her expression. I believe this is some of the stuff a judge tolerates in the puppy class but not in the others.


----------



## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Actually the current GRCA news has an article on the 1940 national specialty that documents this issue. Written by Marcia Schlehr are the GRCA historian, it is on page 30.

"No one today enters the class dog or bitch in two regular classes, but it was not uncommon back then. There were three double entries in the specialty show, but it created an interesting problem in that the winner of the Open Bitch class here became an eligible to go into Winners, because she had been placed second in the America-Bred class. Winners was, and is, open only to entries so far undefeated in the classes."


----------



## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Yes they sit in the ring! Just have fun and talk to them. They will jump around and be silly sometimes. The judges expect that from a young dog. I think showing spunkiness helps actually! I really do. If they have energy and enthusiasm they are having fun and showing ears and expression and that's what you want. Which is exactly the opposite problem I've had with Lucy in the ring. She is expressionless and very mellow in the ring. I think she's trying to be obedient and not having fun. When she went in with a pro the last time she was in the ring, she was having fun and jumped around and had a great expression. Which resulted in WB! So it's a balancing act between having an obedient dog and one that shows expression.

I would only put my dog/puppy in one class. If there is a puppy sweeps, enter that also. Sweeps can usually only be shown by an owner, not a pro. Look in the premium to see if there is a puppy sweeps.


----------



## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

This weekend I was in Sat and Sun. puppy sweeps and the puppy class. Of the four judges, two of them asked my puppy's age. She is one week short of being 18 months, but looks a lot younger. Is this common to ask in puppy classes or any class? It caught me off guard, and I almost said 18 months rounding it up and remembered that she had to be under 18 month for the class.


----------



## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

I've never had a judge ask, but I wouldn't be surprised if they asked. 

Cubbysan, do you have any photos from last weekend? It would be fun to see your girl!


----------



## flatcoated (Feb 3, 2013)

I don't think judges necessarily stop taking age into consideration when a dog ages out of the puppy classes. I didn't start showing my dog until a week after he hit 18 months, so he started in Open at exactly the moment when many people think about putting their dogs away for a while to mature, and judges asked me how old he was at least 50 percent of the time. Many are very capable of recognizing a nice dog who still has some growing up to do regardless of class and will ask about age in order to confirm that what they are seeing actually is youth.


----------



## Christen113 (Dec 3, 2014)

We're going to our first conformation class tonight. Fingers crossed!


----------



## Christen113 (Dec 3, 2014)

Sooo…how long did it take you to get your puppies ready to show and what tips do you have? Part of our issue is clearly that I need handling training and I think I’ll go ahead and schedule a private lesson. The rest of the issue is that Cooper LOVES everyone and everything. He made amazing progress over an hour long class so part of it seems to just be releasing some energy and hopefully with more classes and practice, he’ll do better. When we got there he was bonkers and I couldn't even get him to stand still for examination for the instructor. By the end, he was standing still (mostly), letting me show his bite and letting him run his hands over him-relatively quick progress. But, what tips do you have to calm your puppies down and get them under control in the ring? It was 100% clear last night that I was a first timer-and the only first timer in our class. We’re going back to obedience classes now so I’m hoping that will help, too. Suggestions welcome


----------



## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Don't overthink. Just have fun. The judges are DOG people. They understand puppy behavior. They know to expect a wild child golden retriever. There is no problem if your puppy acts up a bit. They sit, they bark, they jump up, they are puppies! Don't worry about it. In the meantime, just continue to go to handling classes. Get some one on one lessons with a pro handler if you can. 

One thing you can do, is become familiar with the breed standard on the GRCA website. Read it and know it.

When you get to the show, sit ringside a few dog breeds before yours with the judge you will have. Watch the "pattern". How does the judge interact with other puppies? How does the judge ask the handlers to move around the ring. Where are they stacking the dogs? How are they doing a down and back? Here's one: is there a ramp? I had that once at a show, the judge was injured and couldn't bend over to examine the dogs, so he used the ramp. So watch for those kinds of things. 

When you bring your puppy in and when you move them around the ring, remember to put the puppy down the center of the runners, not your body, the puppy's body. You are show casing the puppy, not yourself.

For you, I'd plan fairly conservative attire. Make sure to pick a color that contrasts with your dog, but doesn't distract from looking at your dog. Make sure to use shoes that you can run in and you won't step out of them as you run. I use non-slip spray on my feet before I put my shoes on. I don't want to step out of my shoes. The spray I use I found at a dog show in a grooming vendor booth. Don't worry if you have fur on your clothes, it's a dog show!

Every day is a beautiful day at a dog show, even if it's pouring rain! So just go with a great attitude, be pleasant to everyone, don't gossip, enjoy the show. Congratulate everyone whether they win, place or lose. Say how nice their dog looks. We were all new to dog showing once. Lots of people will be more nervous than you!

Some people pick up really quickly how to show a dog. Some people like me are very hard to train. So your question about how long should it take to learn how to show a dog is all dependent on you and your relationship with your dog. I know that sounds vague...


----------



## Christen113 (Dec 3, 2014)

Alaska7133 said:


> Don't overthink. Just have fun. The judges are DOG people. They understand puppy behavior. They know to expect a wild child golden retriever. There is no problem if your puppy acts up a bit. They sit, they bark, they jump up, they are puppies! Don't worry about it. In the meantime, just continue to go to handling classes. Get some one on one lessons with a pro handler if you can.
> 
> One thing you can do, is become familiar with the breed standard on the GRCA website. Read it and know it.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the input!

The guy teaching the classes last night did not appreciate puppy behavior but he was a stand in so we'll see how next week goes. Part of this may be a matter of just needing to find another instructor/school. I've gone to this one for CGC and obedience and I never was really a fan, but the conformation group class options (even in Houston) are limited. 

Some of the other people were just laughing. Most were pretty friendly and seemed to think it was funny. I just kept reminding myself that everybody had a first class once. 

He did mention about the runners-and I probably would have never thought about it had he not.

Great idea about the shoe spray!

What's your favorite type of bait? Hahaha, Cooper wanted the string cheese that the handler next to us was giving her Corgi. He kept barking at her "Give me your string cheese!" hahaha.


----------



## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Christen113 said:


> What's your favorite type of bait? Hahaha, Cooper wanted the string cheese that the handler next to us was giving her Corgi. He kept barking at her "Give me your string cheese!" hahaha.


Inevitably, what another handler has will be what your dog wants, even if it is the same thing!

I choose something I don't mind putting in my mouth. Show enough and you will realize that is the quickest and most easily acceptable place to put it when you don't need it.


----------



## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Luckily your guy is food motivated. Lots of breeds aren't and people have a hard time getting them interested in bait of any kind or a toy. Sounds like any food will work, and like LJack says, your boy will want what everyone else has.

So here's the rub, sometimes there is pounds of bait on the floor of the ring where handlers have thrown it. So when you are running around the ring, be prepared for the screeching halt when your puppy smells the most delicious steak another handler left on the floor. So keep playing with them and try to be the most interesting thing in the world and have the best bait.

Oh one other trick that some people use, don't feed the morning of a show. That bait will further entice your dog to follow you around. Don't let them have your ring bait prior to being in the ring. You want it new and enticing as possible.

Now all that information is purely fluff when it comes to entering the ring. Your boy may totally give you the paw and be completely interested in something unexpected and pays you no mind. So laugh it off, remember to smile at the judge and all the other handlers. 

Don't forget to get a professional photo. Your guy will be little only once and time sure flies!


----------



## Christen113 (Dec 3, 2014)

Oh, he's food motivated for sure! Haha. So true. The grass is always greener and the food is always better. When we finished our puppy obedience class, they had everyone pose for a group picture. I couldn't figure out why I couldn't get him to sit and settle down-then I realized he was busy cleaning out our neighbors bait bag, hahaha.

What do you do to stay the most interesting thing in the midst of that delicious steak? If you use toys, how do you hold them or what do you do with them? A squeaky toy is a surefire way to get his ears up. 

And how do you teach them to perk their ears up? I've heard people use the command "ears." Click and treat? Is there a better way?

How do you make sure you're keeping it fun? Cooper's tail was wagging all night so I assume he was having a good time. 


All good advice and appreciated!


----------



## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

Alaska7133 said:


> Cubbysan, do you have any photos from last weekend? It would be fun to see your girl!


I posted some up to date pictures of Sailor at home just being herself. I have two pictures from the show that my co-breeder took, but they were not flattering of me.

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...9385-updated-pictures-sailor.html#post5688409


----------



## Christen113 (Dec 3, 2014)

Here are the pictures of Cooper from last night. The angle isn't the best. Just ordered fit paws  I tell you, I've spent a small fortune on this guy.


----------



## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

He's looking great! Definitely a puppy, loads of fun at this age!


----------

