# Could raw feeding be linked to intestinal bleeding?



## tintallie (May 31, 2006)

DH and I feed Wiggles a commercial raw diet and supplement with bones as well. I've never found his stools to be sharp with bone fragments....what I do find is that it can be chalky at times so he is breaking down the bones.

Have you considered maybe going to the butcher and getting the chicken necks and backs ground up?


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

I do know a lot about this subject but really don't feel I have the time and energy to delve very far into this doing battle with the fanatics... so I'll just touch upon some things here. The vast majority of 'raw feeding advocates' you 'met' on the web are fanatics... with most websites and forums dedicated to 'educating' the uninitiated as very cult-like in nature, complete with spouting 'scripture' from Pitcarns, Billinghurst and alike... as their 'proof' for everything. They have succeeded in killing almost all the websites that are anti-raw or even dare question the raw movement as possibly being misguided. If you search hard you can find a few which haven't been 'brow beaten' into closing down as yet. There is one run by caretakers of a wolf sanctuary that state that the greatest killer of wolves in the wilds is not a disease or even man but rather bones fragments lodge in the digestive tract of the poor unfortunate animals (which BTW have an average life span of less than 4-years in the wild!). Another site run by an extremely 'neutral' veterinary service shows X-rays of dogs who were fed raw bones that punctured the internals of those animals, which lead to internal bleeding, infections, and compaction. Several years ago I was visiting a forum of BARF advocates (it was the Wellness forum, I don't even know if they are still active today)... there were phonies PhDs and claimed authors, who faked their credentials (that was how I 'busted' them right on-line)... anyway, I came across a thread from a desperate woman who had posted the evening before. She had earlier just fed her dog its first ever raw meat and bone meal... a wing I think... and this dog was pale and labored breathing... she asked the forum what to do. All she got back was a scolding for "not having followed the directions properly for feeding raw"... she posted back pleading for help on what to do, was this normal, etc... most chiding is all she got in return from those phoney 'expert' biddies... finally several hours later her final post was that her dog had just died. I was so flaming mad... I verbally laid into those BS experts and later researched their 'credentials' and busted them. I was pissed. I left several scathing posts and washed my hands of that forum. Interestingly enough I soon got two emails from two very different sources. The first was an apology from one of the two owners of the website, explaining that they haven't been monitoring that part of the website for quite some time and agreed things got out-of-hand and they were now going to institute several changes. The other email was far more interesting... it was from some veterinary student who claimed to be part of some organization that had been quietly monitoring that website for quite some time... they were quite concerned with the baloney and half-truths and myths being spread through that site. They were supposedly trying to 'catch and save' the innocent newbies who've managed to do their pets real harm... well, I was NOT impressed by them as it seems they missed one. My replies to both emailers was full of disgust and some venom... they never responded back.

All I'm trying to say here is be very careful when alternative feeding. Try to read as much on BOTH sides concerning whatever diet you've chosen and try to sift through the sales pitches to identify the facts and use logic when evaluating the info given. Yes, evidently even 'flexible' raw bones can splinter (contrary to Billinghurst's teachings)... take one and bend it to see if you can break it, which I know for a fact you can do quite easily, and feel how sharp the end is. Why take some one else's word for things you can easily try yourself? Crush a bone in a vise... just like a dog would do with his molars... feel the points of the fragments... are they sharp? You could even run it through a food processor if you don't have a vise handy.

EDIT: And just so you know... we started feeding Kimo (our American Eskimo) raw back in 1994 just about the same time as "Give Your Dog A Bone" was published. Kimo ate raw 'til the day he died of kidney failure at the age of 10-1/2.


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## mybuddy (Mar 2, 2007)

tintallie...

I had found as well that Buddy's stools were chalky. Generally they get this way from eating beef bones. I am going to see if I can find a grinder here. Have no idea where to look but will venture out and see what I can come up with.

Monomer...thank you for your input....opinions from both sides are always welcome with me. I have to be honest with you...I am feeling very confused. I always want to do what is best for Buddy which is why I made the switch in the first place. He was always having health issues with commercial food. Also, all the recalls on pet food scares me to death. Just to clarify and I am sorry but I should have been more clear....the main reason for me going raw was by the suggestion of some friends who were experienced raw feeders. They have never had any problems. I am not saying that raw feeding does not cause problems ( I have no way of proving this ) *but* I was going by what their experience told them. Yes, I have done reading as well and have read pro and con and decided to go with my gut and change him over. I agree with you...there are fanatics on both sides of the fence and I do believe that we have to make our own informed decisions and what we think is best for our pets.

As for me....I ONLY want what is best for Buddy which is why I am asking these questions. I have to admit, todays visit to the vet has me concerned and I am in the process of making some decisions regarding this.

So Monomer..thank you for broadening my perpective. I will definatley take it under consideration


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## mybuddy (Mar 2, 2007)

Monomer..do you believe that raw feeding was linked to your dogs kidney failure? If not, what made you switch from raw to commercial? I am just curious....


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

mybuddy said:


> Monomer..do you believe that raw feeding was linked to your dogs kidney failure? If not, what made you switch from raw to commercial? I am just curious....


The honest answer is... I don't know and probably never will. I rather suspect it was vaccinations... but that's a whole nuther subject. However my wife believes it was related to the raw food diet... and as far as I'm concerned, neither of us really know, so her opinion is just as valid as mine. We compromised and mostly feed Sidney and Sophie commercial kibble and some canned with occasionally 'fresh' items that include raw eggs, yeast, fish, organ meats, etc. However, we have determined Sidney is now allergic to fish, raw eggs, and anything chicken... his mode of response to an allergen is 'dirty ears' sometimes with welts.

The truth be known, I am actually an advocate for raw feeding but am not necessarily a Billinghurst blind faith believer... in fact he has been proved wrong in a number of his 'teachings' and so what I do mostly is offer caution. However, the fanatics like to jump to the conclusion that I am anti-raw because I don't worship at the alter of their dietary gods but instead will question the things that are not supported by the facts or are only half-truths or are not logical in concept or conclusion. If anything, I 'preach' using common sense and logic and fact checking when it comes to something soooo important as your dog's diet. Unlike ourselves who can choose our diet from a huge variety of food stuffs and according to 'natural cravings', our dogs have no choice and must eat and survive on whatever we provide for them. Fiddling with your dog's diet then can be very risky if you don't know what you are doing and just blindly taking advice. It might not seem like much now, but after your dog dies from something that might be diet related... the guilt can just eat you up inside.


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## mybuddy (Mar 2, 2007)

I am wondering if the intestinal bleeding could be caused by something else and not this...what do you think? Do you think or have you ever heard of these 2 things being directly related? I would really like to know what you think. Sorry if I am sounding desperate but any opinions help.

You are right...being informed is key. I have to say though, my dog's diet is a real issue for me. I really do love feeding raw....anyway, for now, I am going to stay away from bones of any kind and after 3 weeks have him tested again and see if there is any change. If so, I think I will rethink his diet.

OH....the drama continues......

Thanks


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

The high content of calcium (as well as some other minerals) from bones is needed to off-set (balance out)the high phosphorus content of the muscle meats... however no one says the bones must be feed whole or raw. We used to buy finely ground chicken and turkey necks (looks like a paste) and bone meal to add to the organ and muscle meats. Originally I was grinding these up myself in a food processor but you cannot believe how sharp the shards were... its like glass shards. And I could occasionally spot blood in Kimo's stool... its black and tarry when the internal bleeding is 'higher up' in the digestive tract... if the blood is fresh (red) then the bleeding is either near the end of the colon or in the anus. I'm guessing that most people feeding their dogs bones do NOT know what to look for in their dog's stools and are expecting 'fresh' blood... when in fact there is often 'older' blood present in their dog's stools all along. Bottomline is why take the chance when you don't have to. Feed bone meal instead to balance out the ratio.


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## mybuddy (Mar 2, 2007)

I thought about bone meal but read that it is actually cooked at high temps therefore killing off nutritional value. Also, some might contain lead. 

So many questions, concerns...


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Yeah, bone meal is steamed. Most of the nutritional value in bones are the minerals it provides to the diet... steaming will not alter and thus cause much (if any at all) to be lost. Enzymes and some vitamins (these are NOT found in quantities in bones) are usually the nutritional components that are destroyed (altered) by the cooking process... but bear in mind that cooking also liberates some nutrition that's normally inaccessible in the raw state... this is especially true where grains and vegetables are concerned. The amount of lead contained in bone will depend upon the environment and levels in the food the cows had consumed when alive... so cooking should have no effect on the lead levels.


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## Hudson (May 18, 2005)

Now I am confused too. I have changed to raw chicken mince, lamb and pork mixed with raw vegies ( whizzed in the food processor), plus chicken wings, necks, and raw bones , on advise from a naturapath, due to on going ear infections and allegies.... now you have worried me too! I just want the best diet for my babies!


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## mybuddy (Mar 2, 2007)

ahhhh makes sense..thanks.


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## mybuddy (Mar 2, 2007)

Hudson

Hi....

I am right with you on the confusion part. I was really thrown for a loop today regarding the blood in Buddy's stool. A part of me is in denial...no way! It coudnt be the bones...it is so good for him...he is so healthy..but the other part of me is saying, well, it makes sense. The doctor showed the the pieces in his stool and they were sharp! It makes complete sense that they would damage the intestines. I always just give the cuts of meat to him as is. As I said before...mainly backs where the bones are not as dense. Now, the ones in there today were bigger ( he had thighs on the weekend ).

I do know that raw feeding is good...I am wondering though if bones, as is, is good. I am just spinning.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

HUDSON said:


> Now I am confused too. I have changed to raw chicken mince, lamb and pork mixed with raw vegies ( whizzed in the food processor), plus chicken wings, necks, and raw bones , on advise from a naturapath, due to on going ear infections and allegies.... now you have worried me too! I just want the best diet for my babies!


Be very careful of the advice givers... use your own common sense and check things out for yourself whenever possible. Evidently many things can cause recurring ear infections but I'm guessing that with Goldens, its often an allergy reactions... be it food or atopy (pollen)... only a full-blown food trial can positively determine if it is a food protein and if so, precisely which protein source(s) are responsible. Your dog could just as well develop an allergy to a protein in the raw diet. A dog must have previous exposure to a particular protein before it can ever develop an allergic response to it... and often it can be after many (even years of) exposures. Simply switching to raw changes some of the protein (structure) and would be the equivalent of switching to a new protein source... but your dog could soon develop an allergic response to some protein source in this "new" diet.

Anyway, its something to think about...


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## Hudson (May 18, 2005)

Well I think she has maybe had a allergic response, poor little girl is always scratching, I have introduced Omega 3 and 6 plus Primrose oil into her diet and I am hoping that will reduce her problem, it has helped in the past. Asha's problem is quite complex, as a 21/2 year old she had a pancreatitis attack and the vets put her on a low fat diet for about four years. This created her problems I feel as I think she lacked essential fatty acids necessary in her diet.( lots of research) She also had an ongoing ear problem only one ear, so that the specialist tended to rule out allergy as it would be the both ears affected. To further complicate the issue she had a very bad ear (resistant strain) bacterial infection, that was only treated by a particular antibiotic, during this time...... plus surgery on her ear,(ear resection)..(which I later found out from the specialist was an unnecessary prcedure) she also had a course of cortisone, and was on antibiotics for over three months. Taking all this into account, this itchyess could also be the result in her immune system being low. I have consulted a naturapath, on this matter and I believe I am doing the very best for her, with the natural raw diet, which they both seem to digest well and enjoy, so I hope I am on the right track.


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## Hudson (May 18, 2005)

Victoria, In my confusion regarding raw diet, I got a bit off track , I do hope Buddy will be okay and all is well with Buddy's health.Sending best wishes to Buddy


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## Goldndust (Jul 30, 2005)

Raw bones can and do cause these problems more then you and I will ever know, most go unreported. I totally agree with Monomer when he says to do ones research. I too do not have the time to get into debates about the issue, nor do I care too. I think it's best for all to just do there homework and do not follow the crowd until they have the facts. From there it is ones own decision to make.

Here is a pretty good link, it explains quite a bit and there are follow up links as well on this site.
Feeding Dogs Raw Bones: X-rays of Dogs With Bone Impactions.

Sending good wishes for your fella and hope he recovers soon.


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## mybuddy (Mar 2, 2007)

Thank you everyone for taking an interest in my recent dilemma. It really is such a debatable issue and I never really care to get into it. For me..it is *always* what is best for my Buddy and in putting him on a raw food diet was what was best for him at the time. If taking him off of it, is what is best for him then so be it. I just need to make an informed decision....I am being totally honest with you all..it is the most difficult decision I have ever had to make. I know that sound dramatic but I mostly am dramatic when it comes to Buddy :uhoh: Anyway, hopefully I will get some more responses here. 

Has anyone ever been faced with this very issue?

Thanks again everyone. I do appreciate your input!


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## gold4me (Mar 12, 2006)

This is really informative. I always like to read what you say about food Monomer. I feed Beau and Emmy raw but the bones are ground up. I never did jump right in to the raw bones for the fear of problems internally. I sure hope Buddy is going to be fine. Keep us posted on how he does.


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## mybuddy (Mar 2, 2007)

Gold4me..thank you. 
How do you grind your bones? What kind of bones? Can you tell me more? I would grind them and would have but have no idea where to purchase such a grinder. What do you use? Or do you have the bucher do it?

The vet said it isnt serious but could be in his opinion. I will keep him off the bones for 3 weeks and take it from there. To tell the truth, I am nervous to give them to him again. 

Monomer..if you are reading....should I decide to stick to raw but fear the bones..what should I do? What would I feed to replace the nutrition in the bones? I know you mentioned bone meal but that might be hard for me to find here in Taiwan. Any other suggestions?


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## mybuddy (Mar 2, 2007)

Goldndust...I am sorry but I forgot to respond to you post.

Thank you for your input and best wishes for Buddy.

I looked at the exact site earlier today! I was doing some online research and came upon that one. A little scary isnt it? OH....my sweet Buddy..I just want everything to be perfect for you! :yuck:

Thanks again!


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## BeauShel (May 20, 2007)

I dont have any advice but wanted to wish the best for Buddy and you. Is there another vet that you might get a second opinion from? Just to make sure that there is no problem with the internal bleeding. If my vet said those words I would be scared to death like you. Hope you get the info you need to get him back on the right track. Good luck


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## THE HONEY WOLVES (Jun 9, 2007)

*raw food issues*

we have been having difficulty with our raw food lately - alot of diareah - when we go back to canidae kibble evrything is fine.- I may just give up on the raw food at this point -

another thing to keep in mind is make sure there is no wheat or gluten in the diet - I am convinced my older golden developed celiac after an antiobiotics treatment -


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## gold4me (Mar 12, 2006)

I feed Nature's Variety Raw food Nature’s Variety
The bones are ground in the food. You might have problems getting that in Taiwan but I have a friend who uses a grinder. Would you like me to ask were she got hers? I think she ordered it from the internet.


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## 3 goldens (Sep 30, 2005)

As a kid growing up we always had English Setters and Pointers for quail hunting. They were fed purina Dog Chow, no scraps of food--family of 7 doesn't leave many left overs and what there was, was saved to go in stew or be eaten my Mom next day for lunch. But they did get ALL the bones left over and that ranged from chicken to pork to quial, squirrel, rabbit. And of course the bones were cooked. We ne er had one incident of problems caused by bones. Most lived to or past life expectancy without near the vet care today's dogs get, only rabies 7 distemper vax, etc.

I even gave cooked bones to my own dogs til about 20 years ago, and i dont' relaly even remember why i stopped. Then about 18 yars ago our neighbor's puppy died. They found it bleeding from back end. no necropsy was done by the vet was almost sure his gut had been cut by glass or bone--and they had given him a bone that morning.

Then 5 years ago when KayCee had her knee surgery I was in the work area with her with they were removing the s;oint or stitches, con't remember whch, and there was an almost comatose chocolate lab puppy being worked on. His temp was 107 and he was almost lifeless. Turns out his stomach had been punctured by a piece of pork chop bone (probably cooked, but i don't know) peritonitis had set in. He died. i never forgot that puppy.

On an all breed forum I belong to, there are several that give like chicken wings to keep their dog's clean and swear by them. They just about had me convinced to try them and I mentioned it to my vet and he was shocked that i would even consider such a thing--he knows how overly protetive I am when it comes to my dogs. He said he would never recommend giving bones, cooked or raw, to dogs as he had had to operate on to many with punctured insides and blockage from larger whole swallowed bones. 

When i brought this up on the forum, my vet wa lambasted by those that give raw bones--he didn't know what he was talkinga bout, he just wanted to do dentals on dogs and make $$$$$$$, etc. One thing I know about my vet, animals come first with him. He could charge much more and still have more business than he can handle, but he wants to take care of animals. They had fed wings, necks, etc for years and no problem. I decided I couldn't live withmyself if i "killed" one of my via raw bones, so never gave them one. I mean how many dogs do I see compared to what my vet sees. How many are never treated by the vet--dogs that are street dogs eating out of trash cans, dogs belong to folks that give them whatever is left over, but never go to vets, etc. 
I looked at it like this. how many on that forum has had a cousin killed by a drunk driver, Probably none. I have. So manyfolks are killed every year by drunk drivers. You don't think much about it until it happens to you. Of course those folks dogs may never have a problem--nor a cousin killed by a drunk. But to many others have. Get my drift?

i do dibble a little in raw, but not much. i can't eat meat unless it is almost charcoal and have never been able to get into feeding it to m y dogs. I will occasionlly give them a couple of raw gizzards, a few raw chicken hearts, a little raw ground turky. But they dont' seem to really like it and leve it in their dishes til last. Which is what i would LOL---only it would stay there.


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## mybuddy (Mar 2, 2007)

3 goldens..horrible story about the puppy. Yes, cooked bones can be very dangerous but what I am learning today is that uncooked ones can be too? I know that many would debate this and I am still on the fence. One thing I do know is that any doubt in my mind is pretty much enough for me. I never had any doubt whatsoever until today...so now, on to plan B. I am still thinking on what to do.....will take time but I have 3 weeks to decide really. Until then, he doesnt get any bones.

I found some bone meal in my kitchen! I had forgotten that I had bought it in Chaiyi when I lived there. I will give some of that to Buddy. Perhaps my vet can get some from that side of the island and have it sent over...I dont know. I will come up with some solution which will keep my boy safe and my mind at ease. 

Oh Gold4me...Ok..please ask her. I will do some looking to see if one can be sent via mail. I am nervous about internet shopping as I had a horrible experience last year. I have pretty much kept my shopping to Amazon but they dont ship any products to Taiwan other than books and dvds. I am sure I can find one here...right? Gosh, asians grind meat dont they??? :


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## mybuddy (Mar 2, 2007)

The honey wolves...

I am sorry you are too having issues with raw feeding. I am feeling really scared about this.

Hope you find what is best for you and your doggies


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## Jellybean's mom (Jul 6, 2007)

Hi-
I worked at a vet's office for about 5 years and can't count the number of internal bleeding or bowel perforations we saw from dogs eating bones. Most were dumpster divers who accidnetally got bones from the trash and ate them before their parents could stop them.

In most things in life, I trust what I can see:

1. I have seen couontless dogs injured from eating whole bones cooked or otherwise
2. If I break a bone (just like monomer said) the ends are sharp and can easily cut

I hope your little guy gets better very soon. :crossfing


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

HUDSON said:


> ...She also had an ongoing ear problem only one ear, so that the specialist tended to rule out allergy as it would be the both ears affected. To further complicate the issue she had a very bad ear (resistant strain) bacterial infection, that was only treated by a particular antibiotic, during this time...... plus surgery on her ear,(ear resection)..(which I later found out from the specialist was an unnecessary prcedure) she also had a course of cortisone, and was on antibiotics for over three months...


Actually asymmetric allergic responses are quite common and if I'm not mistaken, often are the usual scenario. My own allergic response to certain pollens always occurs in my right eye... only on the very worse of days will both eyes be affected. Sidney's 'dirty ears' is actually only his left one. The allergic response is for the irritated ear to create excessive amounts of waxy substance... this in turn becomes the medium to fuel both bacterial and fungus (and yeast) growth... this then is the cause for the subsequent ear infection(s).... however if you clean the ears regularly there will never be a bacterial or fungus over-growth to begin with as you are actually removing the 'food source' for the bacteria etc. That's why some people (and vets) advocate weekly or bi-weekly ear cleanings... however I believe the cleanings are only dealing with the symptoms and NOT the root cause. That's why you really need to know specifically what it is your dog is allergic to.

I hope the foregoing wasn't too convoluted for you to make some sense of... I often don't express complex ideas very well when I'm writing 'on-the-fly'.



3 goldens said:


> ...I looked at it like this. how many on that forum has had a cousin killed by a drunk driver, Probably none. I have. So manyfolks are killed every year by drunk drivers. You don't think much about it until it happens to you. Of course those folks dogs may never have a problem--nor a cousin killed by a drunk. But to many others have. Get my drift?...


Excellent analogy!!!

So very little in life is guaranteed, mostly its all about playing the odds... its about probabilities. We try to do things and make our choices so as to shift the odds toward our favor ...but sometimes we are unlucky. You can eat right and exercise everyday and then suddenly get hit by a bus... so does that mean we shouldn't bother to watch what we eat and try to stay in condition? Some people do get by living dangerously, so does that mean we can also do the same? How bad would you feel if you suspect you might have killed your dog? especially if it wasn't necessary.



mybuddy said:


> ...Monomer..if you are reading....should I decide to stick to raw but fear the bones..what should I do? What would I feed to replace the nutrition in the bones? I know you mentioned bone meal but that might be hard for me to find here in Taiwan. Any other suggestions?


Whole bones (the smaller edible ones really... not so much the gnawing leg bones) are probably my biggest fear in the raw food diet. You MUST balance the calcium/phosphorus ratio in your dog's diet if you are feeding muscle (and even organ) meats... there is no option. You could try another calcium source... eggs shells, dairy products (yogurt, cottage cheese, etc), or calcium supplements... however I don't really like those alternatives either. I think dogs need ALL the minerals contained in bones... and bones usually have a favorable balance of the other minerals. Minerals are far trickier to balance than vitamins and the results can sometimes be disastrous if an imbalance is allowed to occur for a prolonged period of time. The effects can take years to surface and are often irreversible. I would suggest finding a source for bone meal and ordering a quantity. As I said earlier, we finally solved our 'safe' bone source by ordering finely ground bone products... but these were perishable items (because some small amount of raw meat was also included in the grind and no moisture was removed) and arrived frozen and we then kept it frozen until use.

I remember as a kid doing an 'experiment' of soaking chicken bones overnight in vinegar... in the morning the bones were rendered 'rubbery' as all the calcium (and maybe some other minerals) had leached into the vinegar (a mild acid). Aren't there some Chinese dishes prepared this way? Anyway, it would seem to me that you could then feed your dog the vinegar and the 'rubber' bone and essentially get him all the same nutrition PLUS the positive effects that are often attributed to using vinegar to acidify your pet's system. Do NOT mis-understand the forgoing... I am NOT advocating you really do any of this but instead I'm just 'brainstorming' for possible alternatives you might want to research more about possibility for use in the short run.

Sorry I couldn't be of more help.


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## mybuddy (Mar 2, 2007)

Thanks....well, I just dont know at this point. I will give it some thought over the next while and see what happens. I wonder if grinding the bones into very fine pieces would be ok? I think chicken backs, the bones there are pretty fine are they not? If they are ground??? What do you think? I could stay away from he larger chicken bones. Just food for thought...:

Thanks for your time everyone in answering...every little bit helps me with this problem.

Bones in vinegar..how interesting. Perhaps i could give Buddy a big ol' glass o'vinegar for breakfast? ( just kidding of course!! )


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## desilu (Nov 2, 2006)

Victoria, here is a site that talks about grinding. The author recommends a particular grinder. Maybe this will help you.

Grinding at the Raw Dog Ranch!

I hope Buddy is feeling better soon. Did the vet rule out any worms or other parasites that might cause bleeding?

edit - the company that makes the grinder says they ship overseas


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Wow, that sounds like a fantastic grinder... I just got through reading the customer reviews over at Northern Tool. And its quite cheap with all things considered... MyBuddy, I think Desilu may have just solved your problem. Here's a faster, more direct link to Northern Tool and that grinder.
Great find, Desilu!


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## desilu (Nov 2, 2006)

Thanks, monomer. However, it just occurred to me that maybe an electric grinder wouldn't work in Victoria's location - I'm not up to speed with different voltages, etc. overseas. But at least she'll have an idea of what to look for.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

desilu said:


> ...However, it just occurred to me that maybe an electric grinder wouldn't work in Victoria's location - I'm not up to speed with different voltages, etc. overseas...


:doh: Doh!!!!
That didn't occur to me either... but I'll just bet they sell transformers specifically for that purpose. (Probably Northern Tool sells one )


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

It sure is affordable. 176lbs an hour it will grind, that's amazing! And it's fairly compact too. 

I didn't know there was such a thing as voltage laws.


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## mybuddy (Mar 2, 2007)

desilu

WOW...fantastic!!! I havent looked at the site yet as I wanted to respond here first. I just know by Monomer's reaction that it was a wonderful find. Cant wait to see it. 

The voltage here is the same, not a problem. 

Thank you so much for taking the time to search that for me. Amazing..simply amazing!!!! 

Question

Monomer, or anyone else who might know....
If you fed your dog about one cup of kibble per day along with raw meat ( no bones ) fruit and vegies etc ( essentially a raw food diet..minus bones...plus kibble ) ...would this give your dog all the nutrients it needs? Would the kibble contain enough calcium?

Do you think this would be a better solution for us? Or would grinding be better?

Here is where I am today....

Thinking...if his stool comes back negative in 3 weeks, I think I might be petrified to feed bones. If they are ground very well, could they still cause damage? I'm scared...so very scared. :no:

Oh desilu....parasites....funny you should mention that because I had just mentioned that to Jo Ellen in a private post. ( maybe that was the post I deleted Jo Ellen but did mention it in one of them ). I was reading last night about that very thing and perhaps..who knows? I am taking him in again to have him tested for that. Even if it is concluded that this is the problem, I think I will still be scared of the whole bones.

I will keep you posted on his tests.

Thanks again ..going to check out that site now.


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## mybuddy (Mar 2, 2007)

Right on!!!! Seems like a great product. I will be ordering that for sure. Very affordable too. And they ship to Taiwan! Great find. Thank you so much.

So Monomer..what do you think? I am sorry to be bothering you with all these questions but I kind of like the way you approach my questions. You dont sway completely one way and make me feel stupid or neglectful for making certain decisions. The freaks on one side would say that bone chips are completely normal and the bleeding must be from some other cause..the freaks from the other side would say...you are a terrible mommy for feeding your dog that way, you deserve what you get! As you know, this is not what I need to hear. Buddy is my life and I always have him in mind in every decision I make, right down to my job. So, this is why I like to ask you....I feel comfortable.

Ok..so my question is...do you think that grinding would be ok for Buddy? or would the kibble plus other foods be better? I wish I could just make a decision on my own but really need input on this one. Anyone..please tell me what you think. 

This is a very important decision for us.

Thanks!


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## gold4me (Mar 12, 2006)

Monomer really has the most and best info. Now I have heard not to mix raw and kibble. I'm not sure why. I suspect the grinding would make the pieces small enough to digest. I haven't had any problems with the ground up bones. Don't let ANYONE tell you that you are a bad mommy. We know how much Buddy means to you!


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## mybuddy (Mar 2, 2007)

Thank you  How sweet of you to say that and to regognize how much he means to me.

Mixing kibble and raw is not good...there you go...something else I didnt know. Oh I am laughing now...LOLOL...food..who would have thought it could be such an issue and why was it never an issue when I was growing up with animals. Heck, I dont ever remember my parents stressing over their pets like this. I remember cooked chicken bones were out of the question but they ate everything else...go figure.

Buddy's diet is all i think about..is he getting enough, is it good enough? When I go shopping, most times the cart is filled with 90% Buddy.....10% me. :doh:

I do love learning new things though, so this is surely an education for me.

Thanks!


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

I am totally not convinced that combining raw and kibble is a bad thing. I do that with Daisy and have never had a problem. If anyone has any information to the contrary, please do tell.

Vic, ground meat & bones will be fine for Buddy. The ground ostrich I give Daisy has little chips of bones in it, it's like grit. Never an issue. 

Hec Vic, with that beautiful grinder, you could bring home a whole cow !! Ewwwwwwww


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## mybuddy (Mar 2, 2007)

I am thinking I should just get the grinder and do his meals that way. I suppose if they are ground very fine, that should be OK. I can picture myself now...grinding over and over and over and over and over and over..checking...more grinding...more ...more...:curtain: Poor Buddy....he will be waiting forever for breakfast. Anyway, I have 3 weeks to think things over. 

Funny, today that was on my mind for most of the day. All I could think about was Buddy and his food. Oh, Buddy and food..always Buddy and food. I should also mention that Buddy is a food vacuum. He really is one of those food-obsessed dogs. I am totally serious in saying this. He sometimes swallows stuff whole. He is just a pig. 

Jo Ellen..do you remember last year when he swallowed the 7 inch skewer? Do you remember what a wreck I was? Do you think he learned? Do you think he would do it again given the chance?

I will tell the rest of you the story quickly. Last year Buddy and I were at the park and he ran over by the swings. Someone had left a bag of food there and there was meat on long wooden skewers...he swallowed them whole. At the time I didnt know but that night he vomited a lot of blood...to the hospital we went. They told me there was nothing showing up in the xrays, blood was normal, no signs of internal bleeding etc. I was not convinced..took him back a few days later and insisted there was something in his throat. The head vet at the universtity hospital told me that there was not and not to worry, he would be fine. 2 weeks later he threw up a 7 inch skewer!! He swallowed two of them!!!! The skewer he threw up whole was exactly that long....7 inches. I put it in a bag and took him back to the hospital and the vet was in shock. She didnt know what to say or do. She said he should not be alive!!! She took the skewer to use as a case study in her lectures and named him "super dog". The amazing thing was....he had NO damage whatsoever...he did throw up the blood but they said that was throat trauma from the first skewer coming up. I tell you, I was never so scared in my whole life. I cried and cried and cried....it was just horrible. I couldnt go to work either. It was a mess. I did a lot of praying!! After that, he was not allowed off leash.

So, that is my Buddy. Food..he will eat it no matter what it is.

God, I love him though...quirky ways and all. He is my baby boy.


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## Tom (Mar 3, 2007)

I remember the skewer very clearly, Vic. You even posted a picture of it, as I recall. Monomer seems to have a great base of knowledge when it comes to diet, and I think that his common-sense approach to analyzing the risks is very valuable.

You know, a lot of us around here love Buddy (and you!), too, and want you to be at peace with any decision that you make. 

By the way, I have a very similar meat grinder at home. I use it when I make my chili and, sometimes, breakfast sausage. I've never tried grinding bones with it, though I guess it would probably work if they were small enough to be fractured by the feeder screw and to be cut up by the grinding blade before being pushed through the grinder plate.

It does make me wonder, however, if you grind the meat and the bones, add some oils and veggies designed for nutritional balance, remove all the water, and compact the resulting meal, do you really have the essence of a high-quality kibble? No answers here, just the question. After all, a lot of pets live long, healthy lives (much longer than their wild cousins) living off commercial kibble. Hmmm... food for thought (no pun intended).


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## mybuddy (Mar 2, 2007)

Hi Tom...SO good to see you here and taking concern for my little Buddy.

You are totally right...many dogs to live long, happy lives on commercial kibble. The thing here is...with Buddy, I was always having allergy issues and here, we dont have all the different quality brands you all do in the west. I really am at a loss as to what to do but thinking about it a lot. I will come up with the best answer...

I think chicken bones would be ok in a grinder....dont you? Heck, I doubt I would even be able to put it together!:yuck:

What does Lacey eat Tom? A part of me wants to just go back to kibble and another part of me doesnt. I am defiately on the fence here!


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

I still think you could find a butcher in your area that can grind what you want to feed Buddy, and then Buddy won't have to wait for his breakfast  Definitely want to make sure if you get a grinder that it can grind bones too. I do think a butcher is a good idea, they have the industrial strength grinders.

I remember the skewer !! Oh dear lord, do I ever. I remember reading about Buddy throwing up blood in the middle of the night and then I had to go to work. To WORK!!! I just knew he would be okay though. Buddy will live forever 

I'm really anxious for the 3-week update. It's going to be a long 3 weeks I think, but that's good because it gives you time to explore your options. You'll find your way, because you love Buddy ... and love moves mountains, yes? Yes.


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## mybuddy (Mar 2, 2007)

Yes, the three week thing is good. I am thinking about it constantly. He is loving his boneless meat though...this morning he had Aussie beef. I am giving him some bone meal too.

Jo Ellen, great suggestion on the bucher but honestly, I dont know where they are. I have never seen a bucher here. I really dont know where to go. Maybe to the markets? I dont know. It seems this grinder on the internet would do the trick...it would only be for chicken bones. 

Anyway, still thinking...thinking....


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## desilu (Nov 2, 2006)

Victoria, I'm glad I was able to possibly be of some help. Your Buddy is a sweetie and he needs to get well fast!

I had alreadey bookmarked the site that mentioned the grinder, so it was no trouble to go find it. Monomer did the work of locating the grinder at the hardware site.

Let us know how Buddy gets on. We are all rooting for him.

(I remember the stick episode - I've been mostly a lurker on both CG and TGRS before starting to post more here!)


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Hey Vicky... I wasn't blowing you off, I am just really busy today and for the next couple. But just before I go to bed here, I wanted to respond to your questions.

The important thing here is not the absolute quantity of calcium but rather the ratio of calcium to phosphorus. So, even if the total amount of calcium is adequate, if too much phosphorus is in the diet, there will be a calcium deficiency as the body 'dumps' the excesses... it has to do with the way the body makes use of these minerals. Think of it this way... if you have a bag that will only hold 1000 marbles maximum and you desire to have it filled with 400 white marbles and 600 black marbles... so you try to fill it from a container of 5000 marbles that is composed of 500 white marbles and 4500 black marbles evenly dispersed. Even though you have enough white marbles to achieve the 400 necessary, you will ultimately only ever get 100 white marbles into your bag and the rest will over-flow out of the bag, the other 900 marbles will be black. So as you can see what's really important is that you try to fill your bag from a container that is 40% white marbles and 60% black marbles. I hope my marble example has made it clearer rather than more confusing. I'm really sleepy and its the best I can do right now.

The ratio of calcium to phosphorus in the diet must be correct in order to be sure your Buddy doesn't eventually suffer from a calcium deficiency. BTW, there are other mineral ratio balances that must be within a certain range but the calcium/phosphorus ratio is considered the most critical.

Now, back to your dilemma... Meat supplies large amounts of phosphorus to the diet and that phosphorus must be balanced out with enough calcium to maintain a final ratio of calcium to phosphorus of 1.2 to 1 (anything between 1:1 to 1.8:1 is okay but 1.2:1 is often cited as what's optimum). This is where the bones come in... though bones have both minerals, it is very rich in calcium and thus is useful in balancing out the diet's ratio.

So the bottomline here is... if you want to continue feeding Buddy large amounts of meat (especially muscle meats) then you must find a rich source of calcium to balance out this phosphorus rich diet. Since the kibble is already balance it will not supply the excess calcium you need to off-set the meat additions and fresh fruits and veggies will not do it either. However the bonemeal additions will. The question is how much is necessary... the answer depends upon how much meat you are feeding him. Hey, I never said any of this was easy... unlike some of the folks who feed raw would have everyone believe.

An imbalance of these two minerals in the diet will probably not be of any concern in the short run, like the next 3 or 4 weeks... but you must make plans on how to deal with it in the future because I wouldn't recommend continued feeding of an unbalanced diet for say a year or more.

As far as the grinder is concerned... I only read the reviews of some people who were using it to prepare raw food for their dogs and they never mentioned sharp bone fragments... doesn't mean there aren't any though. Maybe you could persuade Tom to try grinding up a chicken wing in his grinder and report back to this thread. I sure would like to know... and I'll just bet others are interested in the results as well.

Well, I do have to go to bed now, so I'll check this thread out in the morning.


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## mybuddy (Mar 2, 2007)

Thanks Monomer and I am understanding it better now. I guess this is why chicken backs are so wonderful... i do believe you get a good ratio there.

Good idea.....TOM would you mind grinding up a couple of chicken wings for me? Just let me know what the bone fragments are like? This way, I will get a better idea before ordering a grinder. I know you wanna....come on.....I just know you wanna!!!!!!! For me??????????? Pretty please with extra sugar on top?????????

Now, I am very anxious to see how that goes. YOU ROCK TOM!

There sure is a lot to consider when feeding raw, you are right. Whew...my head is spinning.

I am terrible with percentages and the like...just terrible. For example, I would look at a steak and freak out not knowing how much calcium he would need to offset that. For example..the bone meal...geez...how much??? I dont know!!! I have been adding about 2 very small scoops to his meat. I am talking teeny tiny scoops that came with the jar. But, as I say, I am just not sure how much....numbers, percentages, measurements......SHOOT ME!

Thanks again for all your help. 

I have noticed a HUGE difference in Buddy's stool. It is much softer and there is a bit less of it. I dont know if this is a good thing or not. I cant wait to have it tested again.

Cheers!


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

I don't feed raw and have no advice on what you should feed, but if you decide to use bone meal, this web site might help. http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/ You can search for the type of meat (it's for humans but it includes info for raw meat too), put in the amount, and it'll tell you how much phosphorus is in it. That will make it easy to add the right amount of bone meal.


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## mybuddy (Mar 2, 2007)

katieanddusty said:


> I don't feed raw and have no advice on what you should feed, but if you decide to use bone meal, this web site might help. http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/ You can search for the type of meat (it's for humans but it includes info for raw meat too), put in the amount, and it'll tell you how much phosphorus is in it. That will make it easy to add the right amount of bone meal.


 
Thank you!! I will check that out right now.How sweet of you to pass this info along!

You know, when Buddy was eating commercial I felt guilty. I thought that by not feeding raw, I was doing him a huge injustice and thought that I was not doing the very best for him. Now...I am starting to feel guilty again but on the other side of the fense...am I doing him an injustice by feeding him raw? I just wish there was a clear cut answer for this.

I am going to bed:doh: Psssssssssst...thanks again!


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

You're welcome  I don't think you're "doing him an injustice" by feeding raw, especially since there are probably no decent commercial foods available there. But you do have to be careful about bones (and I haven't heard this from any unbiased sources, but the raw food cult members whose Yahoo group I lurked on for a while claimed that ground bones could cause problems too).


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## mybuddy (Mar 2, 2007)

Really? Ground bones can cause problems too? What do you believe? What is the safest way to feed our pets? What is best for them? Gosh, I honestly dont know. I wish I could make a decision and be done with it but to be honest I cant. I just dont know!! I hear compelling arguments from both sides and just dont know. I often wonder if where Buddy is getting older ( he will be 5 this month ) if maybe the bones would be too hard on him and commercial would be better. I amd still giving this a lot of thought!


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

I don't know either. That's just what the cult people say. It's worth knowing what they have to say but you have to keep in mind they're cult people. I'm not familiar with the design of grinders so I don't know if it would be at all possible for a sharp piece of bone to get through (if that was possible I would absolutely not feed ground bone).

I doubt there's any really good commercial food available there. Monomer's vinegar idea is interesting, you'd just have to research and make sure large amounts of vinegar on a daily basis is appropriate, and find out how much calcium is in just the bone. Are you sure you couldn't get bone meal?


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## mybuddy (Mar 2, 2007)

You are right...it is almost impossible to find here. Buddy was on commercial food before. First Hills...he always had problems, then switched him to Nutro which was good for awhile but then he started having a few problems..then I switched him to chicken soup FTDLS. I found it on the internet in Kaoshung and they delivered. Buddy ate it for less than a month and he got really sick....fungus, yeast infections..it was a mess and took me about 6 months to get him back to normal. This is when I made the switch to raw. I really do notice remarkable differences in him being fed raw.

Ok...here is some good/interesting news

Today I went to this restaurant supply store and asked if they had meat grinders. Sounds easy right? not really when you cant speak Chinese! :yuck: Anyway, I pointed to a picture of a pig and made a grinding sound and they understood. Turned out they didnt have any but this customer who was in there at the time knew of a place that sold them. I went right down and found an industrial strength one. She said that they are ususally sold to businesses but some people buy them for their dogs. I asked her about the bone and she said it should grind the chicken bone without any problem. The thing is a monster machine.
I believe it is 1/2 horsepower...they sell 1 horsepower but she said that the half should be enough for me. What do you think? Is 1/2 HP good? To be honest I have no idea what HP is...I should go look that up on the internet.

I believe it would be the same price if not a little cheaper to buy this one than have one sent over. ( inc. the shipping fee )....so might just go with this one. I told her I would be back on Saturday...so....what do you think?

Tom..have you ground my wingie yet?


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

The one at Northern Tool is a .8HP and they sell two other more powerful models, of course for bigger $$$$. However if you read the reviews, people were amazed by the power of that particular grinder.

So at this point I would say... wait for Tom to report back. If these grinders produce bone shards then you won't be any better off than if you let Buddy's molars do the grinding.

I still think bone-meal (if you can get quantities of it also check here or here or here or here) is a viable option. I wouldn't be too concern about getting precisely a 1.2 to 1 ratio... that's a bit anal as I'm sure 'wild dogs' don't have electronic scales and graduated cylinders for measuring and monitoring their intake. I think one tablespoonful of bone-meal should be adequate per pound of meat... it should get you quite close to the "optimum ratio".

EDIT: I changed the links above... now you will actually have some choices!


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## mybuddy (Mar 2, 2007)

Hey there

Yes, I think I will wait and see what happens with Tom....WHERE ARE YOU TOM?? I will do a search on the net as well..there might be some reports on there about this.

Thanks for the info on the bone meal. I am sure I must be able to get that somewhere here. I did buy some in Chaiyi last year so am sure my vet can hook me up with some, should I go that route.

It says that the bone meal is balanced calcium and phosphorus....does this mean that with exta raw meat feeding ,he would be getting too much phosphorus and not enough calcium from the bone meal? Do you know what I mean? I thought the bone meal was strictly calcium rich, with no phosphorus. Or..am I being way too anal about this?


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

I think its about a 2 to 1 ratio if I remember right... so its quite calcium rich. Extra calcium is needed under certain conditions which is probably what the 'sales pitch' is referring to... lactating bitches, growing puppies, ageing seniors, etc. often need an even higher ratio to satisfy their specific needs for calcium. However this is assuming a diet with an appropriate ratio to begin with. But your situation is that you're trying to balance out a diet already heavy on the phosphorus.

BTW, I just sent you a PM... basically telling you to check those bonemeal links out again as now there are more choices.


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## mybuddy (Mar 2, 2007)

Got your message thanks and will check them out again.

I wish Tom was here...I am dying for him to grind a wing for me.


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## gold4me (Mar 12, 2006)

This is all so interesting. I looked at the food I feed Beau and Emmy because it has ground chicken bones. The bones are so small I can barely see them. That is good.


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

gold4me said:


> ...because it has ground chicken bones. The bones are so small I can barely see them...


But do the bone fragments feel sharp to you? You feeding the dry or the frozen?


gold4me said:


> ...Now I have heard not to mix raw and kibble. I'm not sure why...


I just now saw this earlier posting... as far as I can tell there shouldn't be any problem feeding both kibble together with 'fresh/raw' foods... we have been doing it for a long time without problems. What was the rational used to support that statement? ...could you find out?


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## mybuddy (Mar 2, 2007)

Gold4me...

You buy your raw food premade yes? I remember you saying something about what you feed and that is what I gathered. Forgive me, but I have been away from North America for more than 10 years so am not up on "the feed". So, you can actually feel the bones? How is this prepared do you know? I am curious to hear more about what you feed...who makes it, etc? I guess what I am trying to ask is.....what kind of grinder is used? ( giggle ) : How are you finding this food? Is it working for you? Expensive or reasonable. So many questions.

I had heard way back on another forum that mixing the two ( raw and commercial) is not good. Now, I cant remember why this is but my guess is an imbalance? Stomach upset? Who knows....I cant see why or how it could harm your dog. It would be like saying, dont give your dog snacks or treats right? Dont you think that "sometimes" we think "too much" about this? LOLOL


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## mybuddy (Mar 2, 2007)

Heading off to bed so Gold4me..should you respond, I will catch you tomorrow ok? By the way.....I saw Buddy running away from the computer when I came upstairs...by any chance was your furry joy playing on the computer..perhaps in doggie chat? Hmmmmm....


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## mybuddy (Mar 2, 2007)

Oh, I forgot. I came across this neat site that has videos on grinding ( yes bones! )....homemade dog food etc. I thought it was quite good...the only thing was, she didnt mention if there would be pieces of bone after grinding. I gathered not but who knows. Anyway, check it out.

Video: Grinding Ingredients : Homemade Dog Food Recipes from ExpertVillage


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

Back in post #24 in this thread Gold4me gives a link to the website of the food she is feeding... but they have dry, canned, frozen, and freeze-dried versions, so I don't know which one she is feeding.

And I can't get any sound from that video you linked to above... maybe I'll have to try another computer...


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## Jazzys Mom (Mar 13, 2007)

Just saw this thread! I fed totally raw for 8 years with no problems but that may have been sheer luck! I fed whole raw chicken necks, backs and occasional wings with ground veggies and in the morning ground fruits. Then we got Jazzy and I made a promise to the breeder I would feed her kibble for 6 months so began feeding Canadie. Found that Sunny actually LOVED the kibble even more that she loved chicken necks so continued to feed kibble. I was going to switch back to totally raw when the scare with the chickens came about so continued on kibble. Now in the am they get ground fruits mixed with either cottage cheese, yogurt or raw eggs (with the shell). They get about 4 eggs or so a week so that I consider their calcium intake. In the evening they each get a cup and a half of kibble mixed with ground veggies. So far they have pretty good coats although Jazzy is losing hers due to the anesthesia from her spay surgery. Doc says they are healthy. I didn't know about the bone fragments, always assumed necks and backs were soft enough as the cultists said, not to cause any problems. I am now seriously re-thinking going back to raw!

thanks for this great thread and for your expertise, Monomer!

Jazzys Mom


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## gold4me (Mar 12, 2006)

I feed the frozen patties but have tried the raw kibble. I like them both and thought the raw kibble would be good for traveling. Here is the website again

Nature’s Variety

Hummm, I thought I saw Beau sneaking out of the computer room. I think he must have been talking to Buddy. He was laughing when he ran out of the room.


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## gold4me (Mar 12, 2006)

That is a great site. I did get the sound.


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

monomer said:


> as far as I can tell there shouldn't be any problem feeding both kibble together with 'fresh/raw' foods... we have been doing it for a long time without problems. What was the rational used to support that statement? ...could you find out?


The cult people said that kibble gets digested more slowly than raw and the reason dogs don't get salmonella or whatnot from raw is partly because raw gets digested so fast. So they say that if you feed raw within 24 hours of kibble the raw will get backed up behind the kibble and stay in the dog's system longer, which increases the chance of the dog getting bugs.

Apparently kibble is so evil that it doesn't get chewed and mushed up at all, it just forms one solid impassable lump moving down the intestines :


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## mybuddy (Mar 2, 2007)

katieanddusty...interesting! Wow, you wonder if this is true heh? 

Gold4me..thanks for your site. Sounds like a great way to feed and you have always had good luck with this ?

Monomer..were you able to get some sound on that site yet? I thought it was quite good and eased my mind about grinding somewhat.

I am thinking about taking Buddy back after 2 weeks and not 3 to the vet to have his stool tested again. This waiting is killing me and want to get to the bottom of it and get on with it, if you know what I mean? It might not be the bones causing the problem...might be something else. So, next week I will run him back in and see what is happening.

Monomer...could bone meal cause allergies? I dont know if it is my imagination or not but seems since I have stopped the bones and substitued with the meal, he has been scratching more. I noticed yesterday that his hear was red, licking paws etc. He was swimming as well, so could have been that. I thought about the bone meal as he isnt used to that. 

Tom??? Where are you?


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## mybuddy (Mar 2, 2007)

Jazzys Mom said:


> Just saw this thread! I fed totally raw for 8 years with no problems but that may have been sheer luck! I fed whole raw chicken necks, backs and occasional wings with ground veggies and in the morning ground fruits. Then we got Jazzy and I made a promise to the breeder I would feed her kibble for 6 months so began feeding Canadie. Found that Sunny actually LOVED the kibble even more that she loved chicken necks so continued to feed kibble. I was going to switch back to totally raw when the scare with the chickens came about so continued on kibble. Now in the am they get ground fruits mixed with either cottage cheese, yogurt or raw eggs (with the shell). They get about 4 eggs or so a week so that I consider their calcium intake. In the evening they each get a cup and a half of kibble mixed with ground veggies. So far they have pretty good coats although Jazzy is losing hers due to the anesthesia from her spay surgery. Doc says they are healthy. I didn't know about the bone fragments, always assumed necks and backs were soft enough as the cultists said, not to cause any problems. I am now seriously re-thinking going back to raw!
> 
> thanks for this great thread and for your expertise, Monomer!
> 
> Jazzys Mom


Thanks for chiming in Jazzy's Mom. It sure is a decision isnt it? Trial and error, dos and donts...benefits and risks. It is scary to think that the very thing we think is doing them good, could be killing them. That may sound extreme but is it? I dont know.....I am not a professional in this area. I honestly thought raw was the best way to go and the more in the natural form, the better. I always thought that the bones were safe ( esp. the nexk and backs ), no matter what but after last week, I like you , am really rethinking this. 

Nice to see/meet you! Kisses to your little ones.

Victoria


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## gold4me (Mar 12, 2006)

I have been very happy with the raw but I never did give my own bones for them to crunch on.


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## mybuddy (Mar 2, 2007)

Great and so happy to hear that all is great with feeding at your home.

Well, tomorrow is supposed to be meat grinder day. I havent heard from Tom...I suspect he is very busy as I know he would be right on the wings..that is just what he is like..always willing to help. I might go ahead and get the grinder anyway, seeing as I told the woman I would be back in tomorrow. Perhaps give it a couple more days? Perhaps I should try to make a decision on my own? :

Well, today Buddy had tripe, beef, apple, egg and shell. He loved it.

Oh Monomer...today I went into a pet store and saw this product. It was manufactured in Australia and was a calcium powder. Now, it didnt say "bone meal " on it but a calcium phosphate. It had pretty much the same feeding instructions as the bone meal I have here. What do you make of that? Have you ever heard of anything like this?


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## Misty (Jul 20, 2007)

*New to raw*

Hello all,
I have just joined the group last night and would like to introduce myself. My name is Misty and I live in Alabama. I have 1 American golden, and 2 English goldens. They are Jaycee, Baylee, and Cooper. I have just started the raw diet about 4 months ago. I haven't worried at all about it until now. I always figured that raw meat is what dogs were meant to eat. But my question is what do you all think is the appropriate way to feed it? Which parts are best? What do you think about chicken thighs and even boneless chicken breasts? I have been looking into the website that was given about Nature's Variety dog food. That looks like a good option to me. I also wanted to ask the person who posted that sight if it is recommended by the company to *only* feed the raw frozen or the freeze dried food without anything else? Also how much is it? Thanks for your input. I look forward to hearing about everyone's goldens here on this site.

Misty
Mom of Baylee, Jaycee, and Cooper


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## monomer (Apr 21, 2005)

I'm on the run here, so quickly...

Yes, it sounds as if that powder IS probably bone meal (mainly if its rich in calcium)... bone is made-up of both calcium and phosphorus in a particular structure and thus has a specific ratio (I think its 2 to1) and therefore when added to the diet will 'shift' whatever that current ratio is, in favor of more calcium. So if a diet heavy in muscle meats is say .8 to 1 by adding a tablespoon of bone meal you in essence bring that ratio up to say 1.2 to 1 Remember 1.2 to1 is considered the optimum for dogs in 'normal' situations and under 'normal' conditions. For instance puppies and lactating bitches will require more calcium, which means a higher ratio is more appropriate in those cases. Calcium is used for many different functions in the body (it is the major mineral in terms of quantities, followed by phosphorus then magnesium and sulfur) for instance calcium is needed for muscle contractions, nerve transmissions, and for blood clotting... it is also a component necessary for many enzyme systems in the body to activate. However we tend to only think of calcium as needed for strong bones and teeth. Another way of thinking about calcium in the body is... bodies usually have a way to store excesses of many components of nutrition... one place excess calcium is stored is in the bones and teeth. Way too much calcium (along with the necessary VitD3) can cause calcification of the organs as the body tries to find more places to store the excess (this is not a good thing and can cause death) and not enough calcium will cause fatigue, irregular heart beat, etc... however since the bones and teeth are the body's 'buffer' or storehouse for excess calcium, it will draw upon these stores first to try and keep the rest of the body functioning and since the strength of bones and teeth are also important this is where symptoms of calcium deficiency are often detected.

Katie, nice explanation... it makes sense when you think about it but I do wonder if this has ever been a problem in practice. Dogs have very powerful stomach acids to help combat such bacterial infections by significantly lowering the count if bacteria were present in the food... but transit time also helps by limiting the 'growth' time in the digestive tract of any bacteria that survive the stomach acids (which I believe a very small number usually will). I would think this more of a problem if the dog would be eating highly infected food, like from the garbage or food left out in warm temps for a really long time or eating large amounts of intestinal contents or poop... and in those cases would the 2 to 4 hours in extra transit time really be the difference between getting sick or not. I'm some what skeptical that this has ever been shown to be a real factor in feeding or has this never been anything more than just a clever theorical point of discussion.


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## mybuddy (Mar 2, 2007)

Hi Misty

Good to meet you.

Your dogs sound amazing..wow 3!! How lucky are you!!!

They raw diet, yes...it has been a worry for me over the last week or so since hearing what my vet had to say. The thing is, I dont know "for sure" if this is what was causing the intestinal bleeding in Buddy but have to admit, it made sense once the Dr. showed me the sharp fragments in his stool. Anyway, i will know more once he is tested again.

I am thinking of grinding. That might be an option for you as well.

Or, Gold4me's route in raw feeding. That sounds like a safe, effective route to me.

All the best to you! Hope to see you back here.

Victoria and Buddy


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## Jazzys Mom (Mar 13, 2007)

Nice to meet you too Victoria! My furkids send kisses back! You know, what KatieandDusty says does make some sense about the kibble. I was alwasy told that the raw moves through the dogs system very fast due to dogs having a shorter intestional tract than humans have. So, if that is the case (and who can say for sure) then kibble would move through just as quickly, right? But, if what Katie and Dusty says is true ---- the raw moves through faster because its raw, and then kibble is fed, then raw again and the raw gets backed up due to the kibble moving through slower then that could be a huge problem. I don't feed raw MEAT and kibble together. I feed either ALL kibble as their staple and supplement with ground raw fruits, veggies, yogurt, cottage cheese and eggs --- or I feed ALL raw necks and backs with the fruits and veggies. I don't skip around and feed raw for a few days then kibble. I have been feeding kibble with the fruits and veggies for a year now without ANY raw meat and they seem to be getting along just fine, so may just keep it that way. If I see some allergies beginning then I think about switching to necks and backs again

Jazzys Mom


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## mybuddy (Mar 2, 2007)

HI Jazzy's Mom

Yes, best to stick with what works best and sounds to me like you have a pretty decent system at work for you. Your babies are very lucky to have such a caring Mommy!

Buddy worked best on the raw backs but as you know, I am now worried about that. I dont know if I mentioned this here or in the chat thread but I will take him in next week to have him retested. I cant wait for 3 weeks...too long to be so unsure. 

I think grinding might be the best option for Buddy. To be honest with you, I wish he did better on kibble because I would put him back on it. The only thing is his allergies..oh, and constant runny poos!

Speaking of....since stopping the bone in his diet, his poos are quite soft. :doh:

God love him...he is just happy to eat whatever is put in front of him. Bless him!


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## Jazzys Mom (Mar 13, 2007)

Oh, I don't blame you! I would not be able to wait 3 weeks for a retest! If Buddy has allergies then its probably best to do ground raw with him as the kibble will just aggrevate the allergies. Your Buddy sounds like my Dakota was ----- just do anything to please you! Give him a big hug from us!

Jazzys Mom


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## Tom (Mar 3, 2007)

Hi Vic! Sorry, I was rather busy this week and didn't get back to this thread as soon as I wanted to. A lot of work piles up if you're only gone a week, you know.

Sure, I'll grind a few wings for you this weekend. I'll have to run out and get some, but I'll do it for you. No prob. Give me a day or so to get it done.

As for Lacey, right now she's been rotating between Canidae Lamb Meal and Rice and Canidae Chicken and Rice formulas. Both have short, high-quality ingredient lists and are highly regarded foods. We add thawed frozen green beans to her meals to help add fiber and to keep her stools solid. I've also had her on California Natural Lamb and Rice as well. 

Remember that hot spot that Lacey just got (her first)? Well, when she was at the vet the other day, I'm told that she went on and on about how beautiful Lacey's coat and how healthy her skin was (except for that darn hot spot, that is!). It made me feel good to hear it, too, since I really spend a lot of time grooming her.

Anyway, I understand that you probably don't have such foods available in Taiwan and I do remember you talking about Buddy's allergies (so many dogs have trouble with the various grains and such used in most, grocery-store and even some so-called premium kibbles). So let me try grinding some wings and getting back to you.


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## mybuddy (Mar 2, 2007)

Thanks Tom! You are the best! I am so late here I have to run.

Just one thing...I am so happy to hear that Lacey is getting good reports from the vet...and happy she is doing well on her food.

Shoot..so late!!

Thanks again
Xo Vic


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## gold4me (Mar 12, 2006)

Hi and Welcome Misty. My vet(holistic) said that I could feed the raw and if we wanted to travel I could then feed the raw kibble. The freeze dried is exactly like the frozen patties but it more expensive. I feed Beau(85 pounds) 2 patties a day and Emmy(60 pounds) 1 1/2 patties a day. They get medium exercise and Beau is 9 and Emmy is 5. Hope that helps.


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## mybuddy (Mar 2, 2007)

*Excellent news!!!*

Hi guys

I bought my grinder and tried it out. WOW..it is AWESOME!!!! At first, I ground wings and there were tons of bone chips and I started to panic. Then I realized that the biggest blade was on it and that was why. I changed the blade to the smaller one and it ground it so fine that I couldnt feel any bone whatsoever! It was as smooth as milk, really!!! I was just so pleased. Just to be sure, I scooped it back up and stuck it in there again and ground it one more time. No bone at all....this is very positive news isnt it? I did some vegies as well and it was just so much fun...I loved it.

Monomer...do you think this is a good solution, since there are NO fragments at all? This should be safe yes? 

I will have the stool test next week and see where we are on that. I am very excited over this.

Oh, I took a pic of the grinder to show you


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## mybuddy (Mar 2, 2007)

Oh, almost forgot.....a little message from Buddy


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## gold4me (Mar 12, 2006)

Wow, sounds like you have a winner. I think that is what Nature's Variety must do to the bones for their food because I can't feel any hard fragments. Yipeeeee
OMG Buddy is the cutes ever. I love that picture. He reminds me of Beau.


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## mybuddy (Mar 2, 2007)

Thank you and yes, I remember looking at pics of Beau in your pic gallery and thought the same thing. They are so cute arent they? I just know they talk to each other all the time too....I know it!!!


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## desilu (Nov 2, 2006)

Oh, I'm so glad you were able to find a grinder locally. That sounds like the best solution - you can see exactly how it will work and not have to worry about having to ship and return something if it doesn't work out. Keep us posted on how Buddy does - he's such a cutie!


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## Tom (Mar 3, 2007)

Man, oh man, Vic. What a grinder! It looks huge.

OK, so I'm late, it appears. I did say I'd grind a couple of wings for you this weekend and, seeing how it's still just Sunday afternoon, I went ahead and ground a couple of wings for you. But you beat me to the punch!

As you found out, you need to go to a small grinding plate to get the bone chips to be small. My grinder's not as big as yours and really is not meant to grind bones, but I figured that chicken wings have small bones so I'd give it a shot. Well, my little grinder slowed a bit and couldn't finish off the biggest bones without adding more meat and force behind them whe using the smallest (1/8") grinding plate, but I did get similar results to you. The bone fragments are there, but are very small and, as such, you really can't feel any sharp edges. The grind was very soft, though - kind of like a thick milkshake but not as appetizing looking (not to me, at least!). When eating it, Buddy wouldn't do as much chewing as he would slurping! Anyway, were I to do it again, just for the sake of my little (400-Watt) grinder, I'd probably start out with the big grinding plate, and make a second pass using the middle- or perhaps the smallest-plate.

Bottom line for me: A grinder would work to reduce the bone fragment risk. The consistency of the grind will be soft, so you'll not get the same teeth-cleaning workout, though. You need to have a powerful motor - maybe 1 - 2 HP (750W to 1500W) - to do this reliably without risking the grinder burning out.


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## mybuddy (Mar 2, 2007)

OMG Tom..thank you! I am so sorry but I had to get it. I went back to the shop and the woman had me sold. I apprectiate you doing this for me so much. I know what you mean by a very soft grind. It almost looked like hogie meat....ground to a pulp but that was OK..but loved it.

Starting with the bigger plate is best as you said and then go smaller. 

Mine is only 1/2 HP....do you think that will be OK? It seemed to be working without a problem....I hope that will be enough. The woman at the shop seemed to think so. Maybe where it wasnt designed for home use makes the difference. I dont know much about that sort of stuff.

Thanks again!!!!!


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Yummm...chicken milk shakes  That's a beautiful grinder, by the way. Is it noisy? Like a blender perhaps? Does Buddy watch you? He thinks you're cooking for him, I bet. It feels good, yes? I love it when Daisy watches me as I prepare her meals. 

When is Buddy's appointment to get retested?


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## mybuddy (Mar 2, 2007)

Hi Jo Jo!!

It isnt that noisy really....Buddy watches every step! LOL..he loves it and esp. loves taste tests.

I will take him back to the Dr. this week, probably on Saturday. I will let you know what he says. Fingers crossed!


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## Tom (Mar 3, 2007)

I'll bet he's watching, too! Mouth drooling all over the floor...

DINNERTIME BUDDY!


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## mybuddy (Mar 2, 2007)

*Update on Buddy*

Buddy had his stool test today and there was still blood. After some thought, the Dr. asked me if I fed Buddy raw organ meat. He said that this could be what is showing up in his stool. I am hoping this is what it is.

So, we are doing an experiment for the next week. Buddy has to eat doggie food and be tested again. Please God, this is what is showing up. If not, he will have to have further tests. I am worried...but pretty optimistic.

Do you think that the raw organ meat could be showing up like this? 

Thanks


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Hmmm....this is new to me. Raw food does digest much more quickly than kibble so maybe some of the raw fluids are being shed?

You know what? I'm going to go ask Sandra.

Kibble for a week huh? Buddy's going to be sitting there gazing at his mommy's meat grinder 

I'm worried too, Vic ... but you know me, I worry about EVERYTHING :smooch:


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## gold4me (Mar 12, 2006)

Hummm, I think that sounds possible. I hope that is all it is. Poor Buddy. Beau said Buddy had the "wurstest da" ever. Give him kisses and hugs from me.


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## mybuddy (Mar 2, 2007)

Thanks Jo Ellen...."BOBO's" mommy..thank you too!

You know, Buddy is well, happy, full of life, great appetite etc. I dont see anything strange in his behavior at all. He seems perfectly normal to me. I just cant imagine anything is wrong with him. I pray..pray that this is all it is. Jo Ellen, would you mind asking Sandra...and do you have her email by chance? It sort of does make sense yes? Seeing as he is consistanly eating raw blood....that could show up yes? Also, I was doing some research on "occult blood testing " and seems diet can have an effect on the outcome...false positives etc. So , perhaps this is all it is.

You would have laughed...I gave Buds his first bowl of kibble in a very long time and the little monkey LOVED it!! HAHAHAHAHA God love him...he doesnt know the difference. What a dear little soul he is...so easy to please. Anyway, I ended up getting him a prescription kibble...it is the allergy one. I just wanted to play it as safe as possible. Oh, it was so expensive though. Unreal!! dat is da ok...dat is da ok...

Gold4me...yes, Buddy was running around yellling..." dis has bin da wurstest day da eber!!!!!". He'll get over it. Sometimes I think this doggie chat of his empowers him. 

I will keep you both posted
Thanks again for taking an interest in my baby boy.


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## goldieluvr (Jul 16, 2007)

I was going to start a new thread about raw food diets, with all the scares about pet food lately, I have been considering a raw food diet when I get a puppy. Now after reading about poor Buddy I realize that I need to collect more information first!!!
I will admit though that I didn't even think about bones when I first started thinking about this, I was thinking raw and cooked beef, cooked poultry, fish and veggies. And bananas of course! 
Where exactly do the bones come in? Are they very important to the diet? What if there are no bones added, or just the tough soup bones?
I am really new to the raw food diet idea, just barely started any research, so welcome any information!


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## mybuddy (Mar 2, 2007)

Hi there!

OMG there you were in my email ( saying you posted here ) and could not wait to get here and chat with you!

OK...first of all...listen to this goldieluvr and others...Jo Ellen...you will just die when you hear this!

Ok..let me back up a bit. I posted originally about blood in Buddy's stool and wondered if it could be raw related etc. Anyway, this has been going on for a couple of months now? Maybe not that long but seems it. OK...SO...I was scared to death that maybe it was the bones, or bacteria from the chicken or whatever. I put Buds back on a commercial diet. At first it was Hills Z/D formula for allergic dogs. It was OK but way too expensive. I then put him back on Nutro Lamb and Rice which he was on before and did OK. I think they changed their ingredients because not a week later his skin all broke out. I was almost in tears today reading this and that on the internet...this food, that food, this danger, that danger. i was about to explode. What is one to think or do???? So much conflicting info out there. Anyway, I took Buddy in tonight to have his stool tested again as he was on antibiotics for 2 weeks, as the vet thought the blood could have been bacterial related.

Anyway, I stood there talking to him about food for about 45 min. and he called a distributor for Eagle Pack ( which by the way is a no go as they are stopping the supply here as it isnt selling well )....blah blah..so I got back on track and asked him to check Buddy's stool. He said that he had to send his dipsticks back to the manufacturer because he tested his 4 dogs and they all tested positive !!!! So, maybe Buddy never had blood in the first place!!! Oh my GOD. I said to him " Sooooooooooooooooooo, are you saying that Buddy perhaps was negative all along?????"....he said " ummmm yeah". So...I was not angry at all...I was so happy!!! I know it was stressful for us but everything happens for a reason. I will have his stool tested again just to be sure but I am not so worried now.

Ok...so on to the food. goldieluvr....I am convinced that commercial food for my dog isnt the best way to go. I could be wrong but his skin and all his scratching is telling me that it isnt good for him. Actually, I think if i could find a top quality food here I would go that way, like eagle pack, California, wellness, canidae etc...but I cant find any of those here. The best I have found is Nutro and that isnt good for Buddy. Oh, I have seen that Nutro products were recalled as well. I was at work today and sick to my stomach with worry!! I am still scared to feed him the uncooked chicken so have decided to grind the chicken backs and plop it in water to kill the bacteria. The vet said this is OK. oh, and YES..they need the bones....you should talk to Momomer about this. He is a wealth of info in this area.

I hope you find what is best for you and your new puppy. It is a worry for sure. I wish I was home sometimes just to have access to better feeding options.

Anyway, isnt that insane that perhaps this thread was started for nothing!!!!


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

I think it's very important the thread was started, especially with the outcome. We put so much faith in testing methods, we sometimes forget things can go wrong.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

You have GOT to be kidding me .... all this alarm for NOTHING?

Wow, if I weren't so gosh darned relieved, I MIGHT be pissed LOL

So Buddy is okay? Buddy is back on raw, with a few changes? 

So are the dipsticks messed up? Or that laboratory? Why the false positives ?? 

You don't have to worry anymore!!! YES!!! I was so afraid he had cancer or something awful like that ... whoa, you know me :


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## mybuddy (Mar 2, 2007)

Oh God Jo Ellen...

Worry!!! I am the queen of worry and always think the worst.

I wonder if this happened for a reason though..to put the fear of raw chicken into me. Should I fear that? Or should I fear kibble more? Recalls etc.

Please let me clarify here....I cannot get good quality kibble here..that is why I say that. I am not against kibble but the kinds here, Buddy is allergic to. If I could get a really good one, I would be ok with that I think.

So, back to raw? I think that is my only option. I could cook it but am afraid of the supplements...not being ablet to supplement properly with calcium etc. I heard that cooking the bone, even if finely ground isnt good. My vet said it was ok but others say not. Oh, big surprise...conflicting info on feeding!!

Anyway..here I go again!!


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

Oh Vic, if you could figure all this out, you could write a book and make a million. We're all right there with you, dear.

So is ground cooked bone dangerous? I wonder what really is the story with Taiwanese chicken ... does it really have more bacteria? 

Ummm....the dipsticks are fucked up. He never was bleeding. So why would we think now that the raw food was bad for him? HE WAS FINE!!!!! 

Don't you think? Except for the blood in his stool, which really wasn't ever there, he was a healthy happy lively energetic dog. 

If there was nothing wrong with Buddy, _maybe there was nothing wrong with his diet_ ?


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## mybuddy (Mar 2, 2007)

I dont know.

His blood tests showed abnormal too remember? He showed anemic..only slightly though...also, total protein was low. I dont know..maybe those machines are faulty too??? LOL

Right now, I am going on Buddy's appearance...energy levels which are good. I have to relax or he will get sick picking up on my negative energy.

Little beast...this morning he got into some crap outside. A farmer must have poured all his waste near a tree to help it grow??? Fruit peels, what smelled like old noodles...**** knows!! It pisses me off that people do this. Buddy chowed down and I thought...there you go!!!!! That is the bacteria infested crap by boy is eating..right there!

I dont know about the chicken Jo Ellen. I sometimes dream that I am part chicken.


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## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

Do raw fed dogs (with a higher percentage protein content to the diet than kibble fed dogs) have different results in their tests than kibble fed dogs? Could blood from the foods ingested show up in the test that was done?
Just wondering as once my son's urine test was affected by a big "red meat" meal the night before the test.


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## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

Do raw fed dogs (with a higher percentage protein content to the diet than kibble fed dogs) have different results in their tests than kibble fed dogs? Could blood from the foods ingested show up in the test that was done?
Just wondering as once my son's urine test was affected by a big "red meat" meal the night before the test.


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

I don't understand how protein could be low in a raw diet. It's mostly protein he's eating, isn't it?

Vic, I'm sorry but I don't trust the testing! Have his blood checked again?


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## mybuddy (Mar 2, 2007)

lgnutah

Good point and if you look back, you will see that my vet thought it too. But as it turned out, it wasnt influenced by the raw meat but by faulty dipsticks! HAHA...not funny but it is funny. I am just happy about it.

Jo Ellen...I am wondering about the testing too as he tested his dog ( golden ) and he showed anemic too. Remember, I am in Taiwan...on the east coast so really, look at what we are dealing with here. He is the best vet in town but his equiptment isnt the greatest and he knows that.

I should move to Taipei!


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

You should move back to Canada, there are no earthquakes there


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## gold4me (Mar 12, 2006)

Well hip hip hooray! I am glad it was the dip sticks! (ha ha) My vet told me when I fed raw chicken hearts I could boil water and drop them in for about 15-20 seconds and that would sterilize them. So far we are doing super on Nature's Variety Raw. I do like the idea of ground bones. I have heard NEVER feed cooked bones in any form! The cooking dries them out and even if they are ground they can be sharp. Give Buddy a big kiss!


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## goldieluvr (Jul 16, 2007)

I'm so glad Buddy is okay! I will definitely be researching raw foods diets now. I don't like the idea of even ground up bones though, so will also research the alternative.


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