# When to move onto FTP?



## MarieP (Aug 21, 2011)

So Riot and I have been working on 3 handed casting for a while now. I feel like he understands the concept really well. When we do a 10-15 minute session, he will only miss maybe one or two, usually backs. But after a reset, he will get it right. He is doing a great job of looking at me and waiting for the cast instead of focusing on the bumpers. Does he need to be doing every cast correctly before we move on? My other issue is that we are still working on FF. Should I get this finished before doing FTP? I will be putting the fetch with a collar correction, but I don't have this tool yet. Now that I think about it, I feel like I probably need these pieces in place before FTP. So what could I do in the meantime? Still work 3 handed casting, of course, but anything else? 

Thanks guys!!


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

Maria, don't take my advice, I know NOTHING. However Gabby had her FF more or less done (still revisit just to keep tuned) before we went to our trainer or did any hunt tests. We did casting for 3-4 weeks before our trainer introduced us to FTP. It seems different to me from each other. Sure they will tie in eventually but the FTP that he has us doing does not involve much casting, at our point. 

Again... just replying to hear myself type :curtain: Not offering any solid advice. LOL


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Hold 
Fetch
walking fetch
stick fetch
collar fetch
FTP


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

What he said


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## MarieP (Aug 21, 2011)

Swampcollie said:


> Hold
> Fetch
> walking fetch
> stick fetch
> ...


Ok, thats what I was thinking. Thanks for the backup.  Question though. Do I HAVE to do stick fetch? Would he miss something moving just from walking fetch to collar fetch? I haven't used a stick thus far, so I don't know if he would understand the correction. But then, I guess its the same as teaching him the collar correction. However, I just kind of see it as an unnecessary step because eventually we will be on the collar correction anyway. But of course, this is my first time training this, so I might be missing something that the step teaches. Thanks!!!


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

I never did stick fetch with Fisher and I felt mixed results when I did stick fetch with Slater. I don't think I'll bother doing it again.


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

I did do stick fetch with Gabby her first experience with the stick. She does not care for it AT ALL but she got the point and the fetch work went swimmingly. I still reinforce that too part of my FF reinforcement work. 

My trainer is starting us working with whistle sits. We are using the stick here. He wants the dog to get conditioned to hearing the whistle and knowing the stick is coming so plant your behind. It is not to reinforce the sit, it is to just make the dog understand you ARE sitting when you hear the whistle. Once you are off the leash or even several feet away, you can't correct as easily. Sure with the collar, but the butt down with the stick is very influential. Gabby again does not care for it, however she has stopped 'running away' and doing the desired exercise. She is getting it. 

I would use the stick, there may come a time later where you might need it. Better to introduce it earlier than later. My opinion. Some dogs who have a big obedience background, or have handlers who have trained multiple dogs may be able to avoid situations that might require the use of the heeling stick. I just know I am making all sorts of mistakes, I can't foresee what bad habits my dogs might have in the future from them. So introducing Gabby to the stick now might be a good thing.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

One benefit I did find of stick fetch is I could carry it over to our obedience work since our go-outs are based on a retrieve.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

I do use a heeling stick for creeping but IMO it had nothing to do with stick fetch. In fact in that application you want the dog to react completely the opposite that you want in stick fetch. Some dogs are really sensitive to the stick and you do need some acclimation before using it as a correction.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

Stick Fetch is a part of the process. Another building block and another tool in your box.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

Swampcollie said:


> Hold
> Fetch
> walking fetch
> stick fetch
> ...


What he said, we are still trying to get to FTP. Then we will go to FTP over Water.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Those steps, and their order are a fine plan. But what happens too often is a lack of thoroughness in some or all steps. The dog pays the tab for that through confusion and even added pressure.

No dog becomes perfect at anything. But they do become reliable, and that's what we seek from step to step. It's not enough that they "know how" to do it. When they do the work correctly, time after time, day after day, and even when distracted, they're trained and ready to move along.

EvanG


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

EvanG said:


> Those steps, and their order are a fine plan. But what happens too often is a lack of thoroughness in some or all steps. The dog pays the tab for that through confusion and even added pressure.
> 
> No dog becomes perfect at anything. But they do become reliable, and that's what we seek from step to step. It's not enough that they "know how" to do it. When they do the work correctly, time after time, day after day, and even when distracted, they're trained and ready to move along.
> 
> EvanG


What Evan said, one of the reasons I have a dislike for FF. Although necessary I have to keep reminding myself to make it thorough to avoid revisiting it. Done properly makes far fewer corrections in the field necessary. Have to remind yourself to lay a firm foundation for what is yet to come and how to give your pup the tools and skills to succeed.


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## MarieP (Aug 21, 2011)

EvanG said:


> Those steps, and their order are a fine plan. But what happens too often is a lack of thoroughness in some or all steps. The dog pays the tab for that through confusion and even added pressure.
> 
> No dog becomes perfect at anything. But they do become reliable, and that's what we seek from step to step. It's not enough that they "know how" to do it. When they do the work correctly, time after time, day after day, and even when distracted, they're trained and ready to move along.


Thanks Evan. I guess my problem is deciding how "reliable" he is. For example, the past week he has been great. Then yesterday he looked like he had no idea what "back" meant. We worked through it eventually, but it makes me worried that he isn't as reliable as I thought. I mean, you say they won't be perfect, but then you say they do have to do the work correctly for a while to be considered "trained." How many misses is OK? Are they allowed to have a bad day and work through that and still be considered "reliable?" I know a lot of it depends on the dog and reading him/her. It just seems like you kind of contradicted yourself above.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

mlopez said:


> "How many misses is OK? Are they allowed to have a bad day and work through that and still be considered "reliable?" I know a lot of it depends on the dog and reading him/her. It just seems like you kind of contradicted yourself above.


I know how you feel, Marie. Believe me! When I mention that they don't become perfect it's just days like that, which serve to remind us that no matter how good they are, they're still dogs!:doh:

They all have off days, or off sessions. Your training successes should be measured more in trends than by a score card. My current Golden was brought along slowly because of the dog he is. His breeding would knock your eyes out, and perhaps give you expectations of super-hero dog. He trains well. But he's just who he is. Going through T work he "got it" early, and had many days that I had to really challenge him to see improvement. Then one day he'd go out and look like an untrained moron! Just a bad day.

The important measure of his progress was the steady trend of nearly everyday being spot on with all the vital functions. It became the rule that he was not only reliable, but had to be challenged strongly to reveal any deficit. That went on for several weeks just to make sure. It was time to move on.

EvanG


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## MarieP (Aug 21, 2011)

EvanG said:


> The important measure of his progress was the steady trend of nearly everyday being spot on with all the vital functions. It became the rule that he was not only reliable, but had to be challenged strongly to reveal any deficit. That went on for several weeks just to make sure. It was time to move on.


That makes a lot of sense, thank you! I appreciate the help.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Marie, FWIW, my pro thinks a dog truly "knows" something when he is able to do it in many different locations, with distractions. Otherwise, it's still a work in progress.
When I think Tito "knows" something Dan has me take him many other places and try the same thing. If he doesn't hit an 80-90% success rate, he doesn't really "know" it, he just understands doing it in the particular situation he's been doing it in. 
The same is true for competition obedience skills. If that made any sense??


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## MarieP (Aug 21, 2011)

hotel4dogs said:


> Marie, FWIW, my pro thinks a dog truly "knows" something when he is able to do it in many different locations, with distractions. Otherwise, it's still a work in progress.
> When I think Tito "knows" something Dan has me take him many other places and try the same thing. If he doesn't hit an 80-90% success rate, he doesn't really "know" it, he just understands doing it in the particular situation he's been doing it in.
> The same is true for competition obedience skills. If that made any sense??


That makes perfect sense. I keep forgetting how much I trained my old dog each little piece, in 1000 different places. Guess its time to take Riot and our 3 handed casting on the road... coming soon to an empty field near you! 

Thanks!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

That's something that Dan has pounded into me over and over...while it seems ridiculously easy for us humans to transfer a skill from one location to another (BACK means BACK no matter where you are!) it really isn't as easy for dogs. They almost have to "re-learn" it every new place, which is why we have to take them so many different places to be sure they know it. Of course they learn it faster than the first time around, but they are still learning it every time you go somewhere new. And then after a bunch of different times and places, they figure out that BACK means BACK no matter where you are! 
In the meantime, we handlers are looking at them totally flabbergasted...you DUMMY! You knew BACK perfectly the past 2 weeks in a row in that field, why are you looking at me like you've never heard the word before? Just because we're in a different field??


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

another thing...before taking him on the road, just try doing the drill in a different direction than you normally do. If you normally face South, try facing North so that he's running the opposite way from what he is used to.


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