# What exactly is Swim-by...



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I like this question!
Now my answer is probably wrong, but here goes:
To me, it's the ability to swim by me, including with a bumper in his mouth, taking more water versus coming straight to me and getting out. It indicates a true ability to handle in the water in all situations. I consider him having "accomplished" swim by when I can stand halfway down the long side of the pond, (this is a small pond, about 40 feet long), have him remote sitting on one of the side banks facing forward rather than directly at me, and cast him into the water with an "over" cast, bumper in mouth, have him swim the whole length of the pond in a nice straight line, past me, getting out on the other bank. If I choose to, I can stop him halfway and give him a "back" cast, having him get out on the shore opposite where I am standing, again, with the bumper already in his mouth.
Not sure that made sense. It did to me.


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## boomers_dawn (Sep 20, 2009)

My understanding, which may be full of holes since I'm going by memory of a) watching someone do it about 10 years ago, b) paper instructions given to us in class which I can't find, probaby buried under a pile of projects I'm supposed to get to:

I think it's like a drill not a training exercise because the dog should already know back, over, and sit/stop before doing this

Find a rectangular pond that is not too big and is open around the edges at the very least enough for the line, over, and back piles.

Put bumpers at the piles and do T configurations; instead of them coming directly back to the line as usual, direct them to stay in the water with the bumper to go across the rectangular pond, for example from the over to the over pile.

I think you meet them at the opposite over pile to take the bumper, so there was something about the dog knowing where it's allowed to get out of the water or not. 

I think the purpose of the exercise is to get the dog to take the casts you give them even though they don't want to because they have the bumper and want to come in with it, and keep them in the water to where you direct them to get out.

P.S. Barb's explanation made 100% sense to me - it's consistent with my vision


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Looking forward to more input....


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

ok, this might help.
My expectations for having completed swim-by. Of course there are many steps to getting to this point:


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Swim-by is the last step in teaching the basic casting skills of go-stop-come. By the time swim-by is completed, the dog is thoroughly forced to a pile, forced to the water, forced en route, knows a sit whistle, takes back, over and come-in casts. The final "proof" of swim-by has him doing these things out of rote obedience compliance -- with a bumper in his mouth, re-entry into water. 

The way I did swim-by with my dogs, I either missed the point or missed a step because it did not teach them to avoid land/cheating, or understand channels, or anything like that. Taught by attrition it was simply obedience to them. But many trainers use it to teach sensitivity to shore, obviously with more pressure. On one hand I want to understand this and perhaps incorporate it into my swim-by for the next time around, on the other hand it is at-odds with my current way to decheat, so I'm not sure if it's necessary since the dog will learn the same lesson later on by a different method that I am very familiar and happy with.

This is the part of swim-by I would love more clarification on.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Anney, the way we did swim by didn't have anything to do with channel marks/blinds, either. That was done in different ponds, although we did do it at the same time (training sessions) as swim-by.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> ok, this might help.
> My expectations for having completed swim-by.  Of course there are many steps to getting to this point:


Tell me more.

EvanG


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Evan, you wrote the book on it! Nothing I can tell you!




EvanG said:


> Tell me more.
> 
> EvanG


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

I was hoping to to draw a philosophical statement at least!

EvanG


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

I let this sit a few days hoping for more input of opinions on Swim-by. Nearly anywhere field training of retrievers is discussed there are a fair number of people who are familiar with the term "Swim-by". In the discussion recently in a thread titled "Training Perspective" the discussion evolved almost entirely into one of 'Swim-by, with e-collar or without'. That aroused my interest. I'm going to try to post most if not all of an article I wrote several years ago on Swim-by. It may contain too many images for the board to handle. We'll see.

*Swim-by for Any Dog!*
By Evan Graham

Suppose you found a way to gain a high degree of control of your dog in the water. Further, imagine this method allowing you to have a real tool of communication with your dog so that he ended up not only doing better water work, but also enjoying that higher standard. The name of the tool I speak of is known by many trainers, and talked about often, but perhaps not nearly as well understood as you might think.

With all my heart, I believe there is far more incorrect information circulated about Swim-by than anything close to being correct. That is likely the main reason that so many people, even those who understand that it can be important and valuable, don't really know how to go about teaching it.
This presentation will hopefully provide a window that will provide a clearer view of one of the most valuable tools a retriever trainer can employ. We will cover how to do it step-by-step. In addition, an overview will be provided describing what swim-by is and what its purposes are.

"What is Swim-by supposed to accomplish?"
In other words, what is swim-by for? What does it provide?

*Control.*

Yes, control -- and even more. Control in water is widely recognized as being more difficult to attain in many ways than control on land. Water obscures many boundaries that are more easily clarified and defined on land. That makes the rules less clear and success more elusive for the kind of work we require of retrievers in hunting, hunt tests, and especially in field trials. 

On a fundamental level, how can you expect to be able to cast a dog off of land at 150 yards if you can't reliably cast him off of land at 50 yards -- or 50 feet? Yes, even casting a dog into water at 50 feet requires control, and it's a fundamental skill that translates into many practical applications. Training a dog to perform a reliable swim-by can go a long way in providing the necessary control for this type of water work. But there is much more to be gained by it.

I've spoken in terms so far that may sound familiar. I want to make it clear, however, that swim-by is not handling in the classic sense. Even when they are executed in the way a standard handling function is conducted they provide a very valuable tool, but there is yet more to be gained. It would be beneficial to have someone give you a ride in his or her car half of the way to a destination to which you would otherwise have had to walk. But why stop and walk the other half of the trip when the driver would have taken you there by car? Likewise, why settle for only a portion of the benefits of swim-by when there is so much more to be gained?

The control required to cast off of land into water, whether coming or going, calls upon the same core mental processes. The ability to readily do it provides a vehicle to teach other important water concepts.

What your dog needs to be successful at Swim-by

Strong basics, including force fetch, force to pile, and a thorough course in land tee work should be considered the minimum preparation for starting a dog on Water Tee/Swim-by. These mechanics make it easy for your dog to understand his job of going, stopping, and casting as a standard requirement.

I would strongly discourage any trainer from attempting to put a dog through this course of instruction without the previously mentioned basic education. It isn't fair to the dog to expect even mediocre results otherwise.

Clear Messages

Handling a retriever is a vehicle of directing him to a specific destination; a fallen bird. Swim-by has an entirely different goal. When you cast a dog toward a fall you're telling the dog "it's right "over" there," or "it's right "back" there." It is a language between you and your dog that can communicate effectively a message the handler desires the dog to receive and follow.

Swim-by also conveys a message, but it's one that is markedly different than the one sent when handling to a fall. When a dog is cheating a return on a water retrieve, for example, he is sending a message of his own. In the words of the late Jim Kappes, the dog is saying, "less water." It's a very simple message, isn't it? So is the message of swim-by. When your cheating dog heads to land, instead of returning straight to you in the water, he has made his statement.

Your response is a swim-by. The message you clearly send is "no," "more water!" When you command a swim-by, the command is not "over." It is "no." "No" says to a dog that what he is doing at that moment is wrong. It should always have said that, and in swim-by, it must say that in order to make your message clearly understood. Less water is wrong, and more water is right. Send clear messages.

I concede that doing swim-bys is useful and constructive, even if they are not executed in the manner I have described. I'm only suggesting that you reap the benefits of the entire tool. Take the full journey.

Teaching Swim-by

A small pond with water deep enough to require the dog to swim will do, but the ideal swim-by pond is rectangular with fairly steep banks. That will require the dog to be swimming all the time he's in the water, and its shape clearly defines all the functions and rules of the swim-by.










When you begin to put all the functions of a Water T together you will both handle, and perform swim-bys. The rules are kept uniform for the purposes of clear teaching. The square areas depict where the piles will be placed for a fully functioning water T.

To begin teaching your dog the functions of casting from end-to-end of the forcing pond I recommend sitting the dog at one end and leaving him there, walking to the opposite end, and calling him to you enthusiastically. Meet the dog exactly where you desire him to exit. As he exits the water begin is first exposure to being permitted to leave it by telling him it's okay to do so. Logically, I use the cue "okay." I say, "okay" with enthusiasm as I throw him a very short fun bumper directly opposite the direction of the water. Repeat this 4 to 6 times in one direction and then do the same thing in the opposite direction.
(continued)


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

(Swim-by article continued)









You should then be able to sit your dog at one end of the pond and teach him to cast to the other end by tossing a bumper to the center of it, casting him toward it, and then walking the length of the pond to the opposite end, continuing to give a cast gesture as you do. This keeps it clear for the dog that this is how it's done here.

This kind of clear teaching should make it easy for your dog to perform this clear simple act without confusion. It's clear to the dog where the water is, and where the bumper is, as well as where you are when you reach the end of the pond. By repeating this swim from one end to the other repeatedly you make clear what is expected of the dog. You also make it fun for him by rewarding each journey with a fun bumper.

This is not a procedure in which there should be major battles. It's low key, and high success in its application. The rules and the functions are clearly defined for the dog.


















Finish this swim-by cast by meeting your dog at the opposite end, much as you originally taught him to do, by exiting where the other "over" pile will be. Of course you will give him an enthusiastic "okay" as he leaves the water, and toss him a short fun bumper as before.

Repeat this several times in each direction to make the function clear for your dog. Avoid the common trap of testing as you train by "trying him out" on a swim-by before you have completed all the preparatory steps. Be fair to him by giving him full instruction.

Putting it together

As you begin to put the pieces of this process together for your dog you will follow a logical progression. You have taught your dog to cast from end-to-end; right to left, and left to right. Then you taught him to do the exact same function, only while carrying a bumper in his mouth. You also taught him the release cue that tells him that he has your permission to exit the water ("okay!"). Your dog is only doing a kind of parlor trick so far because you haven't shown him any practical context for these acts yet. That will be our next step.

Because your dog has already been casting both ways, from end-to-end, so many times it should be a very small easy transition to teach him to cast from the center of the pond. We'll do that in the simplest way possible.
Using a single white plastic bumper approach the pond from the "line" side -- or point of origin. That is the starting point for performing all the functions of a water tee and swim-by. From here you will teach the dog where the back pile will be by tossing a bumper there, and sending him to it. This bumper should land on the far shore just barely on land so calling him back by water will be a non-issue. When the dog fetches the bumper you should whistle him in about halfway and give him his first real swim-by.

As he approaches the midway point of his return you say "no" while giving the cast gesture in the direction you want him to swim-by, and begin walking to that end of the pond and continuing to gesture.

*NOTE: There is a common tendency in the overwhelming majority of dogs to swim at an angle toward the far shore as they perform their first swim-bys, or to angle toward the near shoreline. Expect this and cast your dog away from the near shore as needed, or trill the come-in whistle as much as needed while continuing your swim-by cast gesture. This will teach your dog to follow the path he was originally taught it. Meet him exactly where you want him to exit, giving the verbal "okay" to exit, followed by the usual fun bumper.










Do this several times in each direction to make the functions clear. Be sure your dog is performing these simple little swim-bys flawlessly before moving on.

Concert time!

Now that everyone knows their part and how to play it, it's time to perform a full concert! All sections will now play in harmony and your dog will come to know the practical application of this goofy game the two of you have been playing. So far your dog probably hasn't thought any of this has much to do with retrieving. It was just kind of a game you two were playing together because it had little resemblance to what you've done in the field so far, other than land T's.
(continued)


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

(Swim-by continued)









I recommend using white bumpers so your dog will have no problems finding a bumper during the exercise. Note that the piles are set with space between bumpers. You don't want to encourage side issues like shopping the pile to crop up and dilute your lesson. I also suggest mowing at least the area where the piles are to be planted for the same reasons.

Running the Water Tee with Swim-by is performed much like your land tee work in that you will alternate sending your dog to the back pile without a handle, and sending him, stopping, and casting on about a 2 or 3 to 1 ratio; lining 2 or 3 times to each trip with a handle. The obvious difference is that you will not allow the dog to return by land on any retrieve.

On each cast to an over pile your dog will be given a swim-by. To get this started you will send the dog toward the back pile after 2 or 3 free passes to it, and walk the cast with him. You will meet the dog as he fetches a bumper from the pile and command the swim-by, saying, "no" as you give the cast gesture toward the water. Walk this cast the full distance to the opposite end of the pond and give the "okay" as he exits (at the other pile), followed by a short fun bumper. Then return to the line and line the back pile at least once before repeating this.










Stay with your dog for a while on his swim-bys to keep other issues from interfering with the learning process that should be strictly focused on these functions. As your dog progresses in all of these functions while needing fewer correction for error (corrections that should be made with as little pressure as possible) you will begin to walk out these casts less and less until all functions can be executed with you remaining at the line. Remaining at the line to run a finished Swim-by involves simply remaining there, and, as the dog nears the shore where he will exit with bumper in mouth, give him permission to exit by saying , "okay"; meaning it's 'okay' to land. The dog should exit there and return by land to line the back pile, and the drill continues.

With most dogs it is a sound practice to stay with the Water Tee/Swim-by for several weeks, and to train as often as possible. During that time it would also be a good idea to adhere to a training regimen that provides marks each day, preferably before and after your water work.

Having completed the Swim-by, and keeping it maintained will give you a tool like no other. Maintenance and the teaching of advanced water work will become much easier for both you and your dog. The level of control needed for successful water blinds, as well as marks, will have risen dramatically. All that, and it's fun, too! Enjoy the swim.

Let the questions/commentary begin.

EvanG


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Awesome stuff Evan, thanks.
Dan does one thing differently, and in my humble and often wrong opinion, better. He uses 2 back piles, not one. Each one is about 1/3 of the way down the bank rather than where your illustration shows it in the middle.
At first, there are 2 lines for the dog/handler, one opposite each pile on the far bank. Then as the dog gets better, there is only one running line, where you show it, but there are still 2 back piles.
It adds many more dimensions to the typical swim by, and also helps prevent the natural tendency to always square a bank.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

You're welcome! Do you have a diagram for that version of SB?

EvanG


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

hotel4dogs said:


> ... and also helps prevent the natural tendency to always square a bank.


That's a great twist that I've never heard about. 
Angle exits are problematic for many dogs, so I can see how this will help. Thanks for the tip!

FTGoldens


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Thanks Evan for the minicourse 

So here's my dilemma. 

Stephen Durrance, a local HT pro out of Georgia, gave our club a mini seminar early this year and included water force, T and swim-by. He used the same technique of "OKAY" to exit and when he wanted to initiate the swim-by, he would sit the dog at the side pile after it grabbed a bumper, commanded "NO -- OVER" and cast the dog to the opposite pile. The "NO" was the correction that said "get in the water." He later brought out a more advanced dog that was through swim-by but not yet "decheated" or running water blinds. He cast the dog "over" through the swim by pond (which was just a little pothole next to a very large body of water), stop and cast it "NO-OVER" when it reached the far side of the pothole, and with that the dog hopped over the ****, jumped in the big pond and took to sea. It just swam and swam. If it started to head to a point he would whistle it, "NO-OVER" and the dog would just turn to more water and swim and swim. It was admittedly very impressive.

At another seminar earlier this year we had Keith Farmer demonstrating water blinds. A theory he taught his dogs was that, if they were stopped anywhere near a shore, and given a verbal BACK command when casted, it didn't matter what cast they were given -- get in the water. If no verbal, then they could stay on land. I really could not wrap my brain around this one. Everybody (except me, I guess) thought this was brilliant and proceeded to adopt it for their own dogs, with mixed success. I.e. one friend has decided not to run Senior until her dog can sit on the shore, be case INTO the shore with a verbal "BACK," and she's expecting the dog to do a 270 turn and get into the water. I think it's ridiculous. I WANT my advanced dogs to take a LITERAL cast -- the goal of decheating is to get them to ignore the shore, and enter water regardless. 

So all of this in the name of giving your dog instructions not to cheat. Handling to avoid the cheat. Dog being very compliant in casting into water but having to be told to do so and not "KNOWING" not to cheat. There's my moral dilemma.

I have put my two older dogs through Mitch White's decheating drill (adapted from the Miner's, and similar but a VAST improvement over the old Dobbs decheating) and it is based on the DOG learning to COME STRAIGHT and RUN STRAIGHT regardless of shoreline. The dog knows not to beach early or cheat, he does not rely on handling to get that done. I have had great success with this and to me it makes perfect sense. I do not understand having to handle a Master dog on the return of a cheaty mark or blind to get him to stay in the water. 

So since I plan to decheat Bally in the same manner, is the "NO-OVER" stuff with swim-by necessary? Is it really communicating to him something he will understand in the broader sense? Or maybe doing BOTH is a great idea that I should implement? Use the "No-OVER" from swim-by in conjunction with the decheating I am comfortable with? In the advanced part of the decheating I use, a cheat is stopped with a whistle and a nick, and cast into the water, rather than recalling all or part way. Something for me to consider. Thanks again.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

identical to yours Evan, except instead of one "back" pile, there are 2. I'm not at the computer with a scanner right now....so I can't sketch it out.



EvanG said:


> You're welcome! Do you have a diagram for that version of SB?
> 
> EvanG


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

You're welcome. I do think the pro we take lessons from is brilliant  .
He doesn't do any AKC at all, but he has put GRHRCH titles on quite a few dogs, no small accomplishment.



FTGoldens said:


> That's a great twist that I've never heard about.
> Angle exits are problematic for many dogs, so I can see how this will help. Thanks for the tip!
> 
> FTGoldens


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I'm not familiar with Mitch's de-cheating drill, but I do know that the way Dan teaches it it is also based on the dog learning to come straight and run straight regardless of shoreline.
Now remember, I've only seen this done with one dog (Tito), so I can't say this is cast in stone for all dogs.
At first, in its most basic parts, it's taught with "help", no collar. The handler is at the end of the decheating channel, and helper at the other end. The helper throws a bumper straight up and it lands on the bank right near his feet. The dog is sent.
If the dog starts to cheat, the helper just gets his attention and swings a bumper, tosses another one into the same spot, etc. That seems to get the dog back on track. 
When the dog is returning to the handler, if the dog starts heading to one side of the channel, the handler moves over to the other side and keeps calling him to heel. Again, this gets him back on track. 
First done as marks, then as taught blinds (because he's been running this as marks).
After the dog can succeed at this quite routinely, it's time to start adding in handling if he doesn't do it right. It's not done with a correction, just a stop and handle him back into the middle of the channel. Interestingly, if the first part was done right, he knows why he's being stopped and handled, and will go back to the center, say "harrruuumph", and go on about his business. 
Once he succeeds at this, we move back and add a land entry. Same sequence, first with help, then with handling if necessary, which it shouldn't be. Marks, then blinds. 
The next step is to back up to behind the other decheating channel (there are 2 in a long row with about 15-20 feet of land between them) and do the same thing all over again. 
Again, help, then handling. Marks, then blinds.
Finally, back way up and add another, longer land entry before the first of the 2 decheating channels. 
The only time he gets called back is for a poor intial line on the first of the two decheating ponds. There's no excuse for that at that point, and he's not going to get away with it. 
The only time we would use the collar, I'm told, would be for a no-go or a no-come. Haven't had any of those.




K9-Design said:


> I have put my two older dogs through Mitch White's decheating drill (adapted from the Miner's, and similar but a VAST improvement over the old Dobbs decheating) and it is based on the DOG learning to COME STRAIGHT and RUN STRAIGHT regardless of shoreline. The dog knows not to beach early or cheat, he does not rely on handling to get that done. I have had great success with this and to me it makes perfect sense. I do not understand having to handle a Master dog on the return of a cheaty mark or blind to get him to stay in the water.
> 
> So since I plan to decheat Bally in the same manner, is the "NO-OVER" stuff with swim-by necessary? Is it really communicating to him something he will understand in the broader sense? Or maybe doing BOTH is a great idea that I should implement? Use the "No-OVER" from swim-by in conjunction with the decheating I am comfortable with? In the advanced part of the decheating I use, a cheat is stopped with a whistle and a nick, and cast into the water, rather than recalling all or part way. Something for me to consider. Thanks again.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Yeah Mitch's method is completely different.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> identical to yours Evan, except instead of one "back" pile, there are 2. I'm not at the computer with a scanner right now....so I can't sketch it out.


So, the two Back piles are run from a single starting point/line? If so, how far apart are the Back piles? I'm trying to work this out in my mind.

EvanG


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

And Dan's may be for other dogs.



K9-Design said:


> Yeah Mitch's method is completely different.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

One the side of the pond where you have the one back pile, let's just say that side is 45 feet long to make the math easy.
There is a back pile about 15 feet from the left shore, then 15 feet between that pile and the other back pile, which puts the other back pile about 15 feet from the right shore.
Initially, you run from 2 starting lines, one opposite each of the two back piles. Then as the dog progresses, you move the 2 running lines closer and closer together, so that ultimately you are running the dog from 1 running line, exactly where yours is shown in the diagram, to either of the 2 back piles. 




EvanG said:


> So, the two Back piles are run from a single starting point/line? If so, how far apart are the Back piles? I'm trying to work this out in my mind.
> 
> EvanG


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I am thinking out loud here, but I think maybe the swim-by and the de-cheating are done at the same time (by Dan) because the concepts are actually somewhat contrary to each other, and the dog has to learn to understand the difference. 
In the one, the dog has to know to swim past me, take more water. In the other, he has to know to come to me, on a straight line, without cheating the bank. It would make sense to teach them at the same time.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> I am thinking out loud here, but I think maybe the swim-by and the de-cheating are done at the same time (by Dan) because the concepts are actually somewhat contrary to each other, and the dog has to learn to understand the difference.
> In the one, the dog has to know to swim past me, take more water. In the other, he has to know to come to me, on a straight line, without cheating the bank. It would make sense to teach them at the same time.


I hope not. Swim-by is the final skill set of Basics. One thing I believe too many trainers have done over the years is get ahead of their young developing dogs by inserting advanced concepts into what should be truly "basic" exercises. Rex Carr, the master trainer who pioneered Basics in their now popular form, made a point of sequentially lining up drills and skills holding faithfully to that theme.

What conforms to the nature of dogs is running lateral/parallel with terrain, including shoreline. Square entries also fit that theme. Diagonal entries do not. When your dog's *basic* skills are solid, *that's* soon enough to put them to work in transitioning them into more advanced concepts like diagonals.

Bear in mind I learned Basics directly from Mr. Carr. I've found no error in what he taught me.

EvanG


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

guess I should think to myself


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> guess I should think to myself


How, then, will you grow?

EvanG


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## boomers_dawn (Sep 20, 2009)

Thank you all for the food for thought.


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

EvanG said:


> What conforms to the nature of dogs is running lateral/parallel with terrain, including shoreline. Square entries also fit that theme. Diagonal entries do not. When your dog's *basic* skills are solid, *that's* soon enough to put them to work in transitioning them into more advanced concepts like diagonals.
> EvanG


But from the description of the two back piles method, at least as I interpreted it, it is first started with two initial lines ... hence square entries/exits. At some later time the initial lines are merged, leading to the angle entries/exits.
Transitionally advancing regards,
FTGoldens


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Yes, you interpreted it correctly.



FTGoldens said:


> But from the description of the two back piles method, at least as I interpreted it, it is first started with two initial lines ... hence square entries/exits. At some later time the initial lines are merged, leading to the angle entries/exits.
> Transitionally advancing regards,
> FTGoldens


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Meanwhile back on topic, when you perform swim-by what result do you want and what message do you want to convey?

EvanG


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

The "Training perspective" thread evolved into a 'Swim-by with the collar or without' discussion, and many participated as if we all understood what Swim-by is and does. So now I'm hoping to get specific about it. All of us know the term. How many really know what you should be getting out of it, let alone how to build the skill?

EvanG


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## boomers_dawn (Sep 20, 2009)

I thought the purpose of the exercise was to enforce taking the casts given, even though they don't want to, to keep them in the water. I thought it would be more of enforcement and battle, but after reading the article you posted on page 2, you're saying it's a TEACHING exercise where I think you mean we're teaching them to stay in the water. We're building the skill to stay in the water.

As for the steps, I have them on some instructions around here I can't find, and now the instructions Evan gave us. I would have to compare them to see what's different or the same. The hardest part for me will be finding an appropriate pond and getting to it on a regular basis.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

You often have to make do with what water you have available. I do have one training place with perfect (man-made) swim-by ponds, but it's over an hour away from my house, so not something I could go to every day for a week or so. Both Slater & Fisher learned water-T on a channel (one-sided), and swim-by on a small cove that was partially open on one end but enough land on the one side to put a pile. Close enough


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

boomers_dawn said:


> I thought the purpose of the exercise was to enforce taking the casts given, even though they don't want to, to keep them in the water. I thought it would be more of enforcement and battle, but after reading the article you posted on page 2, you're saying it's a TEACHING exercise where I think you mean we're teaching them to stay in the water. We're building the skill to stay in the water.


Very good observations. Try to think of it more broadly though. The training of the skill set we call 'Swim-by' really conforms to the same training process as other skills and skill sets. With SB, as with all others, the first and most important phase is "teach", so your observation in that regard is correct. I have a video clip that illustrates some aspects of that article.



Now for the part least understood, and too seldom taught. Although many trainers have come to simply handle on return to straighten out a diverted/cheating route (and call it swim-by), it was not designed for that purpose, nor was it to be administered that way. As its creator designed it, SB is not handling in the classic sense, and it was not to straighten a cheating route. It is to change your dog's attitude toward water so as to remove a desire to seek land. That will take some effort to wrap most trainer's heads around. Check the video and ask any questions you like.


boomers_dawn said:


> As for the steps, I have them on some instructions around here I can't find, and now the instructions Evan gave us. I would have to compare them to see what's different or the same. The hardest part for me will be finding an appropriate pond and getting to it on a regular basis.


When considering any contrast in steps be sure to keep in mind what the goals are. When you handle a dog the message you send is "No, not that way - this way (per cast). Swim-by just says one thing: "More water".


K9-Design said:


> You often have to make do with what water you have available. I do have one training place with perfect (man-made) swim-by ponds, but it's over an hour away from my house, so not something I could go to every day for a week or so. Both Slater & Fisher learned water-T on a channel (one-sided), and swim-by on a small cove that was partially open on one end but enough land on the one side to put a pile. Close enough


Yeah, we all enjoy looking at custom training water, but most folks don't have that. We use what we have nearby and learn to be creative. The use of a channel was a good adaptation. I've done it many times. The video I made about it shows it being taught on 3 different ponds with 3 different dogs.

EvanG


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## boomers_dawn (Sep 20, 2009)

I found my swim by instructions this weekend. I can't take the mental energy to read and comprehend them right now between work, volunteer work, and professional CEUs.

I did flip through to see what's there - 2 articles from Retriever journal, including 
"Swim by for Any Dog" that includes a section called "Concert time!" - sound familiar? 
That makes me happy  Thanks for taking the time to try to help ppl with this Evan.

Dog skool teecher always says dog training isn't rocket science. But I think it is. It's hard for me.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

boomers_dawn said:


> I found my swim by instructions this weekend. I can't take the mental energy to read and comprehend them right now between work, volunteer work, and professional CEUs.
> 
> I did flip through to see what's there - 2 articles from Retriever journal, including
> "Swim by for Any Dog" that includes a section called *"Concert time!" - sound familiar? *
> That makes me happy


Yep it does! If I can answer any questions just ask.

EvanG


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## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

This is an old thread, but I just read the entire thing. I sure wish we had more threads like this on the forum. I feel like whenever we bring up hunt/field it dissolves into an e-collar debate. I've been doing swim by's with Cruz as a refresher this week. I was talking to a friend and she mentioned that her trainer doesn't do swim by's. I searched it here and up popped some helpful insight. I hope that we can contribute helpful tidbits so that years from now people find threads like this.


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## PalouseDogs (Aug 14, 2013)

Anyone have a link to or a description of the Mitch White method?


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