# Puppy Cost?



## az_melanie (Aug 5, 2012)

Hello All, 

In our hunt for a reputable breeder that does hips, elbows, hearts, eyes, as well as doesn't breed before 2, shows their dogs, and has some CH's in front of their name, things are mighty pricey! I am curious as to what local breeders are charging in your area for *well bred* golden pups . Here in Phoenix, its about $1500-2000. When we first started looking they were around $1200 about a year ago and all of a sudden there has been this big price jump. EEK! Anyway, just curious if this is totally normal or if we are in a high priced area?!

Thanks!


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## xoerika620xo (May 25, 2012)

I believe it is normal many who have bought their Golden paid from 1,000 and up


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

I am not familiar with the prices in your area, however on the East Coast I believe the low price now is about $1800 on average.


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

$1200-2,000 seems to be the normal range from a reputable breeder with all 4 clearances at a minimum done. With pet quality lower than performance or show puppies.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I agree those seem like normal prices. It is so expensive to show the dogs, and the medical costs too are high.


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## CStrong73 (Jun 11, 2012)

I just bought a puppy in Micigan, and the three breeders I spoke with here al charged $1,200.


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## Mosby's Mom (Oct 19, 2011)

When we were puppy hunting LAST YEAR at this time, prices were around 1,400-2,500 in my immediate vacinity (greater DC area), and the lowest was 1,200 if I wanted to drive many hours (we still did drive many hours, but did not pay 1,200).


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Another thought if you do find something out of area their is th cost of shipping or driving. I had this happen when I lived in Indiana. The only reputable breeder was in Pittsburg and we had to drive for 7 hours each way and lodging. In our case we did not have a local option so we just considered it part of his initial cost. I was so happy to get a sound, beautiful, healthy puppy!
Good luck with your continuing search. I wish you much puppy love when you find your breeder.


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

In my area, the average price is $1100-1500. It sounds like you're in the average. If all of the breeders are within your budget, find the one that you connect with best. Don't price shop as this person can and will be a support to you during your puppy's life. It is best that you feel comfortable with one another.


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## vleffingwell (Jan 12, 2011)

Sounds right, pet/show quality with clearances which is worth every penny, 1500-2500........


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

az_melanie said:


> Hello All,
> 
> In our hunt for a reputable breeder that does hips, elbows, hearts, eyes, as well as doesn't breed before 2, shows their dogs, and has some CH's in front of their name, things are mighty pricey! I am curious as to what local breeders are charging in your area for *well bred* golden pups . Here in Phoenix, its about $1500-2000. When we first started looking they were around $1200 about a year ago and all of a sudden there has been this big price jump. EEK! Anyway, just curious if this is totally normal or if we are in a high priced area?!
> 
> Thanks!


I think if you want all those clearances, and the children of show dogs, you're probably going to have to be ready to pay through the nose.

In my area, 2-3 years ago when I was looking for a puppy, just the AKC registered purebreds (Not necessarily with clearances, and with parents who were often just house pets), ran $600-$1200 generally. After a long intensive search, I found some being sold for $450, negotiated them down to $300, and borrowed the $300 from some people I knew.  

But I was looking for a house pet and didn't mind not having the stuff you're looking for- as long as I knew he was a purebred eight week old golden and I established a connection with him when I picked him out, that was good enough for me. I wasn't looking to show him, and I knew it was fairly unlikely that I'd breed him.

Do you roll the dice a little without clearances? Yes, you do. But people can only afford what they can afford, and the truth is that dogs without clearances may wind up healthy, and even a dog with clearances six ways from Sunday may wind up being unhealthy. There are never any guarantees in life. Clearances are preferable if one can get them, but if it prices you out of the puppy market, than going without sometimes works out alright. The only health issue my dog has is allergies.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

As a general matter, I cannot see myself paying more than $2000 for a puppy unless it were a puppy with a very coveted pedigree out of very accomplished parents. And the puppy would have to be amazing as well. Knowing that type of breeding does not occur very often, I think $1500-2000 is about average on the west coast. I can't think of any breeder I know in the show world who charges more than that for their puppies.


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

CarolinaCasey said:


> this person can and will be a support to you during your puppy's life.


If that's what someone is looking for, yes. I wasn't really looking for continued contact from my breeders, though. They called once to make sure things were going ok and get my address to send some papers to, and that was it, and I was totally fine with that. I knew I'd kind of be on my own raising my puppy, and I wanted to be. I got a little help from family who would dog sit him, and that was great, and the Internet was a strong resource, but a continuing relationship with the breeders wasn't a requirement for me. I'm not saying it would have been a bad thing, it's just not something I needed or expected. I just kind of figured, once he was my dog, he was my dog, and the dog and I would move on with our new lives, and the breeders would move on with their lives with their pets (His parents) and any leftover puppies or new puppies that they bred in the future.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Not only are you rolling the dice, you're supporting unethical breeders who are not doing anything good for the breed. I would NEVER support a backyard breeder because I want a golden for cheap.


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

Vhuynh2 said:


> Not only are you rolling the dice, you're supporting unethical breeders who are not doing anything good for the breed. I would NEVER support a backyard breeder because I want a golden for cheap.


I love backyard breeders. Raising inexpensive puppies in a family environment. Nice folks, and with my current dog, the puppies and both parents were all running around together with members of the breeders' extended human family, and had a pool to swim in and all kinds of cool stuff.

The puppy I had as a child actually came from an accidental breeding, and I think the father was a little underage, and he did great. That dog got arthritis and cancer when he was 8 or 9, but that's fairly late into his life. Otherwise, he was perfectly healthy, too. And he also came from great people- a family we knew who loved their dogs to death.

I mean, when I say I like backyard breeders, I don't mean people who sort of force breed their dogs and constantly churn out puppies, I am talking about people who might have an accidental litter or choose to breed occasionally on a reasonable schedule with cherished pets, and treat the dogs well.

To me, if someone wants $2000 for a dog, that dog might as well not exist in my mind. I'd never be able to afford that. Backyard breeders help create the opportunity for folks who otherwise couldn't have the experience of raising a puppy and having a golden retriever in their lives, and in that sense can be really awesome.

And, just for the record, I e-mailed every "non-backyard" breeder I could find within two hours of me to see if they'd be willing to cut me a break on prices because of my love for the breed, history with it, and poverty and health problems. I pretty much got "No"s across the board. I think one offered me a slight price break, but it wasn't enough. It was the backyard breeder who was willing to hear my story and cut me a break because they knew I'd be a good dog owner.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

I do understand that the high prices drive many people away from reputable breeders.

Reputable breeders raise their puppies inside their homes. Mine was. 

The high costs of puppies come from the costs of showing and competing with the dogs and doing clearances. Most breeders are not making a profit when they charge these "ridiculous" prices. That is why they do not lower prices. 

Backyard breeders are not here for people who want cheap puppies. They are here to make money and target those who cannot afford a quality puppy. They are just looking to make huge profits from their dogs when they haven't had the expenses of showing or health testing. 

Did your breeder ask how you would pay for expensive medical treatment should that ever occur if you could only afford to borrow $300 for a pup?


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Breeding without health clearances is irresponsible. 

I don't care if they live in the house with the family....it doesn't change the fact that they are perpetuating inherited health issues by producing puppies. Did the breeder tell you that goldens are plagued by SAS? A heart condition that can literally make a dog drop dead at a young age? Did they tell you about pigmentary uveitis? An eye condition that - left untreated - can lead to the LOSS of their eyes? I could go on and on. 

I get that you love your dog and are happy with the outcome, but please don't come on this forum and say you love people who breed irresponsibly. Getting a puppy out of parents with hip, elbow, heart and eye clearances is the bare minimum - not the cadillac of puppies. Even a breeder who is not showing their dogs can pay the money to get their dogs' hips and elbows xrayed and sent to the OFA, eyes checked and sent in to CERF, and a heart clearance from a cardiologist. Saying it's cost prohibitive is just an excuse because they are breeding to make money and don't care if the puppies they produce drop dead at 18 months old from SAS, lose one or both of their eyes to PU or can't walk due to crippling HD or ED. I'm sorry if I'm being harsh but the excuses some "breeders" give for their actions really just tick me off.


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

Vhuynh2 said:


> The high costs of puppies come from the costs of showing and competing with the dogs


I understand the value of health clearances, but why do I, as someone who was only looking for a pet and only would be looking for a pet in the future if my dog passed away, and not planning to show or breed, really care if the parents of my puppy were show dogs or great in agility competitions? Whether my dog can jump 30 inches or 40 inches doesn't really matter to me. And as long as he is within the breed guidelines, and looks reasonably nice (and is not missing any teeth or anything  ), I don't care how he'd do as a show dog either. 

He also doesn't have to be have "perfect obedience" type genes- to make a good pet for me obedience wise, a dog only really has to be capable of being taught how to not relief himself indoors or on sidewalks/pavement, how to sit on command, how to come on command, and how to not attack random passersbys.  I don't need him to be able to jump through hula hoops or to perfectly obey me at all times and learn as arsenal of 100 different commands. My current dog sometimes sort of "backtalks" me and I'm alright with that. He's my buddy, and I like a little personality there. I'm not looking for him to impress all the neighbors or be able to appear on the next dog show on the USA Network or whatever. 

Also, despite my health problems, I don't need him to be a service dog either. I'm not blind or something like that where he really needs to do stuff for me. He just keeps me company, shows me love, and gives me an incentive to fight through the pain and do some walking (Because I know he loves and needs his walks) or play with him.

I'd like to think there's some room for golden retrievers as companion animals at companion animal prices. Nothing against show dogs and people who love having their dogs compete in agility competitions, I just would like to think there is room for both types of dogs and both types of owners, and for people in all income brackets to own the breed.



> They are just looking to make huge profits from their dogs when they haven't had the expenses of showing or health testing.


The puppy I bought had the first of the three rounds of his initial vaccinations done. When you consider that and food expenses and care and so forth, I don't think the folks who sold him to me were making a huge profit. Maybe a small one. I think in some part they were doing me and the dog a favor because they could tell I really loved goldens and couldn't afford one otherwise. And I think there was probably also an issue there where they had a really large litter, most of whom had been sold, and were trying to move the last few dogs out before they got older and became harder to sell (or even give away).



> Did your breeder ask how you would pay for expensive medical treatment should that ever occur if you could only afford to borrow $300 for a pup?


Breeder didn't ask many questions, and I preferred it that way.  My dog gets tons of food, water, treats, all the normal vaccinations, an annual checkup with a vet, heartguard every month, frontline plus every month for fleas and ticks, allergy medicines, his state dog license, etc.. Now, it's true, on my income, I did have to switch vets because the first one became unaffordable, and look around and be very clear with the new vet about pricing. I also get the heartguard and the frontline online to save money. But he does get all that stuff- I just have to really scout out the best deals.

In my state, the minimum is a rabies shot every three years, adequate food and water, and a dog license that's less than $10 a year. As you can see from what I've typed, I go way above and beyond that because I love my pet. But I don't have to. I do it out of love and a feeling of responsibility.

My parents are better off than I am and have a dog who they take to the vet once every 3-4 years, don't give a heartworm preventative or flea and tick stuff, etc.. He does fine. I disagree with their management of him and think they should do more, but he seems happy and healthy.

There are far worse dog owners out there than me who's dogs get far less, and yet still do well.

Now, could I afford chemotherapy if my dog got cancer? No, I could not. However, dog chemo isn't very effective, and many people choose not to get it for their dogs with cancer for that reason, and because it would lower their quality of life in their final days. Also, if you've got like a 12 year old dog who's near the end anyhow, trying to extend that life six months through artificial means that may or may not work may or may not be an absolute strict requirement of being a good dog owner, especially if you can't afford it.

In the case of stuff like a dislocated or broken bone, I could ask my vet if we could work out a payment plan if it was too expensive. In a pinch, I even know people with human medical backgrounds who would do it for me gratis. And with infections and stuff a *good* vet will work with a client to prescribe an affordable medicine in cases where they can't afford the best stuff and let them take it to a pharmacy or whatever that sells cheaper, and so on and so forth. 

Of course, you do have to shop around for the right vet, and question all charges and be clear about your expectations. My last vet prescribed me a $50 antibiotic for a mild bacterial infection that she didn't even think was worth taking the dogs temperature over, and did it without blinking- later online I discovered another antibotic that's effective in dogs was something I was familiar with and could be had for $4 with humans (And in fact I knew someone who could have gotten that for me for free). She also threw in a $30 shampoo and a bunch of BS that I didn't even know I was being charged that much for until later. She also wouldn't deal with online pharmacies. So I switched vets. 

My new vet and her staff are very aware that they need to work with me on these kind of things if they want my business and won't be prescribing me any $30 shampoos that they sell out of their own cabinets.  Also, they have a dedicated person to dealing with online pharmacies and are happy (or at least content) with clients who want to buy medicine less expensively elsewhere and have some qualms that vets selling the very medicine they prescribe at a markup might be a conflict of interest.

Can you always I always be sure every possible eventuality is covered? No, I can't, but I'll bet you can't either. There's always something that could be beyond almost anyone's financial means. You just do the best you can, and if something really horrible comes up, you try to work with your vet and see if they can make some changes or set up a payment plan or whatever.

I was reading online reviews, and one vet's office was reviewed with a story of someone who switched to that vet after other vets insisted that a mass be removed and then tested for $1,000+, or that the dog put down. They went to the vet they were reviewing, and the vet said he/she would remove it for far less for them to save the dog and not do the testing. Turned out the dog lived for years after that (Non-cancerous, I guess, and even if it had been cancerous, the testing wouldn't have helped much- there's no cure for cancer). I said "There's the vet for me.". Can't remember if that's the vet I ultimately wound up with or not, but I definitely placed them a call to ask some questions about their other policies, at the minimum, because that sounded like a good person who cared about animals and could work with people who weren't made of money.

I don't like the veterinary industry as a whole, because I think many vets price gouge and don't always do the right thing for the animal or the human behind the animal, but I think there are still some specific vets out there who view your animal as important for more than just the money treating it brings in, and who will work with people in tough financial circumstances to make treatment affordable, offer alternative treatment plans in the case that there is no way to get "Plan A" down to what the owner can afford, create payment plans, etc.. You just have to find the right person who's the right fit for you.


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## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

I can understand balking at plunking down $2000 at one time for anything. Most of us wouldn't be able to do this (unless this was handled through payments spread out over a long period of time).
If you aren't in a big hurry, how about watching and waiting for a dog through rescue or from your local animal shelter? It might take a year, but eventually the right dog (or even puppy, as you mentioned wanting a puppy) will find his way into your life.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Golden999 said:


> I understand the value of health clearances, but why do I, as someone who was only looking for a pet and only would be looking for a pet in the future if my dog passed away, and not planning to show or breed, really care if the parents of my puppy were show dogs or great in agility competitions? Whether my dog can jump 30 inches or 40 inches doesn't really matter to me. And as long as he is within the breed guidelines, and looks reasonably nice (and is not missing any teeth or anything  ), I don't care how he'd do as a show dog either.


Breeders don't show and compete to make it a point that their dog can jump 30 inches..It isn't as silly as you make it sound. They show and compete to prove that their dogs are worthy of being bred to preserve the breed. Goldens should demonstrate to have the temperament, trainability, and correct structure before being bred. Otherwise you have all of these out of standard dogs with the wrong temperament.

It isn't about wanting a show quality dog or not, it's about purchasing a puppy from a breeder who does things the right way, who are into preserving the breed and not just making a few bucks off their dogs.



> Can you always be sure every possible eventuality is covered? _No, I can't, but I'll bet you can't either._ There's always something that could be beyond almost anyone's financial means.


I have pet insurance, so that does not apply to me, and I purchased it because I never wanted financial reasons to be the cause of my dog not receiving treatment, so I pay the $40 a month for coverage.

I know how tempting it is to get a cute puppy at such a low price, but there is so much more to selecting a breeder than what you just described in your post.


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## Umqueen33 (Jul 24, 2012)

I live in Maryland and my puppy will cost me $2,000. But like someone said, its worth every penny to have those clearances, etc. Like my aunt said, you cannot put a price on love!


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

Golden999 said:


> I love backyard breeders. Raising inexpensive puppies in a family environment. Nice folks, and with my current dog, the puppies and both parents were all running around together with members of the breeders' extended human family, and had a pool to swim in and all kinds of cool stuff.
> 
> The puppy I had as a child actually came from an accidental breeding, and I think the father was a little underage, and he did great. That dog got arthritis and cancer when he was 8 or 9, but that's fairly late into his life. Otherwise, he was perfectly healthy, too. And he also came from great people- a family we knew who loved their dogs to death.
> 
> ...


:--appalled:


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

MikaTallulah said:


> :--appalled:


LOL!! Love it!!


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

Vhuynh2 said:


> I have pet insurance, so that does not apply to me, and I purchased it because I never wanted financial reasons to be the cause of my dog not receiving treatment, so I pay the $40 a month for coverage.


What if your insurance won't pick up a given recommended course of treatment? Or will only pick up a fraction of the cost? I know a lot human beings with human health insurance who still can't pursue certain courses of treatment that their insurance companies won't cover, or face situations where the insurance will pick up some of the cost but not enough of it, for certain things. I'm just saying, there are no guarantees in life. I'm glad your pet insurances gives you piece of mind, and it probably will help you with some things, or maybe even everything you encounter, but I'll bet there is some fine print somewhere that has certain exclusions and so on and so forth that make it at least a theoretical possibility that there are some things they wouldn't cover.


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## photoweborama (Dec 6, 2007)

These guys run $1600.00 here in CA..


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Golden999 said:


> What if your insurance won't pick up a given recommended course of treatment? Or will only pick up a fraction of the cost? I know a lot human beings with human health insurance who still can't pursue certain courses of treatment that their insurance companies won't cover, or face situations where the insurance will pick up some of the cost but not enough of it, for certain things. I'm just saying, there are no guarantees in life. I'm glad your pet insurances gives you piece of mind, and it probably will help you with some things, or maybe even everything you encounter, but I'll bet there is some fine print somewhere that has certain exclusions and so on and so forth that make it at least a theoretical possibility that there are some things they wouldn't cover.


Of course there are fine prints but I also have the money to cover what insurance won't cover. Insurance was for the big things, like surgery and chemo, which ARE covered. I believe the only things that aren't covered are things like acupuncture and MAYBE physical therapy, and if my dog needs acupuncture or physical therapy she is going to get it. It's not a life and death decision like if I couldn't pay for a surgery or chemo.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Golden999 said:


> I understand the value of health clearances, but why do I, as someone who was only looking for a pet and only would be looking for a pet in the future if my dog passed away, and not planning to show or breed, really care if the parents of my puppy were show dogs or great in agility competitions? Whether my dog can jump 30 inches or 40 inches doesn't really matter to me. And as long as he is within the breed guidelines, and looks reasonably nice (and is not missing any teeth or anything  ), I don't care how he'd do as a show dog



I completely agree, I don't need a show dog, I couldn't care less if my dogs' parents are show champions or not. However, just like you said above, I do want a GOLDEN RETRIEVER, one that fits into the "guidelines" or standard of what a golden is supposed to be. How does someone know if their pet actually fits the golden retriever standard or not? I don't believe the average bacvkyard breeder has enough knowledge of the breed to know if their dog actually fits the standard. There is a certificate you can earn, called a CCA, it is a one time event, and it is just three judges looking your dog over and saying "yes, this dog meets the minimum requirements of what a golden retriever should be." If someone can't take the time to even do that with their dogs, then no I don't think they need to be breeding.


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## golden_eclipse (Apr 1, 2011)

For a pet puppy, I think expecting to pay less than 1200, is either short changing a really good breeder who has invested a lot of their own money into their breeding program, or it means going to a less than reputable breeder. 

In the end when you buy a puppy from a reputable breeder, consider it a gift of at least a couple hundred or even a thousand dollars of the breeders own money...

consider the fact that each puppy a breeder raises to be bred/shown eventually, about 50% don't make it. Consider about 5-10k dollars have been invested into that puppy before they find out the puppy won't work out. 

Consider that often each breeding is done with special breeding techniques like a surgical AI, with a special stud from far away, and numerous Progestrone blood tests to ensure they are breeding the bitch at the right time.....add those costs up, before you even know there are puppies, its about about 4-5k dollars in costs....

consider each weekend show runs about 500-600 dollars, the average dog takes 6-7 months of showing to finsish.... (12-15k dollars sometimes more depending on region)

Consider Food costs for each of a breeders dogs, $50 a bag, maybe 4 bags a month..

Consider the vet costs of potential breeding: ultra sound to confirm the litter, x-ray to confirn the number of puppies, possible c-section, monitoring of potential health problems in the puppies....(the breeder literally might not sleep for 3 days after a litter has been born..) all of this can add up to 5-6k dollars....lets not even go any further, cause I think I made my point. But one last comment, my bitch who I shown to her Canadian champion (not even an american champion) completed all of her clearances, paid a big price from her breeder just for the chance on her as a puppy, and then picked out the nicest stud I could, paid for the stud fee, the progesterones, the c-section, the x-rays, the ultra-sounds, the surgical implantation, and guess what I got for a litter, one puppy. She then went on to miss two times after that. SO what did I get, umm a 10k dollar puppy. (eventually I got a litter of 9, 1 and 2 from this bitch, but not without investing thousands into vet costs) SO I get sort of irritated hearing complaints about a $1200 price tag. Your breeder has spent more than that on producing that puppy. Off my soap box.


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

Loisiana said:


> I completely agree, I don't need a show dog, I couldn't care less if my dogs' parents are show champions or not. However, just like you said above, I do want a GOLDEN RETRIEVER, one that fits into the "guidelines" or standard of what a golden is supposed to be. How does someone know if their pet actually fits the golden retriever standard or not? I don't believe the average bacvkyard breeder has enough knowledge of the breed to know if their dog actually fits the standard. There is a certificate you can earn, called a CCA, it is a one time event, and it is just three judges looking your dog over and saying "yes, this dog meets the minimum requirements of what a golden retriever should be."


I understand why you'd look for that in a dog. However, no one that offered that offered a dog I could afford. So it wasn't a question of "CCA golden retriever" or "plain old AKC golden retriever". It was "AKC golden retriever without CCA" or not a golden retriever at all.

After a long search, I was at the point where I was seriously weighing taking a 6 month old black Labrador someone offered me for free on craiglist (Who I am sure also didn't have CCA clearance, and wasn't a golden anyhow). I don't think I would have been happy with it, because I really had my heart set on an eight week old golden retriever, and really hemmed and hawed on the older Labrador puppy and wouldn't commit to it. Then there was the 12 month old half golden half collie who lived on a farm where he got to run around free all day and I was told had a lengthy routine of going around greeting farm animals and neighboring farmers every morning, who I was offered for under $100, but who I strongly suspected wouldn't adjust well to an urban environment with an apartment and a small yard and being leashed for walks.

Or, I could have, to get a puppy at the age I wanted, gotten an eight week old pit bull puppy. But, clearly, as a fan of golden retrievers, a pit bull would have been a far cry from what I was looking for in a dog, or even what I would know how to handle or be happy with.

In the end, I figured I was probably picked my companion, roommate, walking buddy, driving buddy (if he could handle car rides, I knew some dogs couldn't), etc. for the next 10-12 years. And I'd be putting a lot of time, money, emotion, and frustration into adjusting to the dog, training him, and seeing to his continued care. So I wasn't going to settle for anything other than an eight week old golden unless I really had to (A lot of effort to put in, and a lot of time to stew over it, if it's not going to the dog you want). For me goldens are about 10x better than other dog breeds- and that experience of raising one from a young puppy was really important to me, since I don't have any children, wanting him grow up and caring for him and all that.

I mean, it really depends on where you're at financially and what's important to you, but I knew coming in that the best I was going to get was AKC certified golden retriever at 8 weeks, and being able to eye ball the puppy and his parents and check the documentation of the parents, and that was good enough for me, given that the alternative was "Not a golden retriever at all, and maybe not even a puppy at all". I had kind of a tough reality to deal with, and I evaluated it and knew what I'd be happiest doing within the range of choices I had.

And I think it's best for the dog having an owner who basically got what he wanted versus one who had to "settle" for a breed or age he didn't want. I'm sure if I'd had to settle, I would have tried to love my dog just as much as I love the dog I actually got, but deep down inside, I don't know how I'd have felt. I really have a strong attachment to the breed from having one as a kid, and a real attachment to raising one from puppyhood, which is what I had done as a kid, and now have done as an adult.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

If I were financially unable to afford a well bred puppy from parents with hip, elbow, eye and heart clearances from a reputable breeder then I would look to a rescue or shelter and bring home a dog/puppy who was already in the world rather than pad the pockets of people irresponsibly breeding dogs for money. As I said above, I'm glad your situation worked out well for you, but coming on this forum and saying you "love" people who irresponsibly breed golden retrievers is what is rubbing a few of us the wrong way.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Maybe I am jaded, but if the purchase price is a stretch at best, how will you deal with a catastrophic health issue? I always had a horse until six years ago and I always said the least of the expense was the purchase price... Obviously the dog upkeep is considerably less, but what if the dog gets away and gets hit by a car? Or it eats a toy and needs surgery?


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> If I were financially unable to afford a well bred puppy from parents with hip, elbow, eye and heart clearances from a reputable breeder then I would look to a rescue or shelter


Rescues wanted more money than I paid for my puppy for dogs who were older and came with a lot of strings attached that weren't palatable to me. I strongly wanted to raise a puppy, couldn't afford to pay much more than I did (already borrowed money), and wanted to do things on my own terms. Many rescues probably wouldn't have even approved me- I'm told some don't give dogs to apartment dwellers period, for example. 

And I'd had an old family friend who's parents adopted a dog they loved from a rescue, and had the organization steal the dog from their fenced in shaded backyard comando style because the dog had spent time in the yard unsupervised on a very mild summer day, and it violated some clause in the adoption agreement. It broke their hearts. They reported the dog stolen and the police looked into it and when it turned out to the rescue, he said it was legal and he couldn't do anything. I wasn't going to put myself through that kind of nonsense if I didn't have to (It wouldn't be that exact kind of nonsense, because my dog is never outside unsupervised- I share a backyard and I feel I need to supervise him when he's back there in case the guy I share it with needs to get in or out, and for the dogs safety from people going in and out of adjacent yards as it's kind of a bad neighborhood. But if a rescue will do something like that, who knows what else they'd do.).



> and bring home a dog/puppy who was already in the world rather than pad the pockets of people irresponsibly breeding dogs for money. As I said above, I'm glad your situation worked out well for you, but coming on this forum and saying you "love" people who irresponsibly breed golden retrievers is what is rubbing a few of us the wrong way.


I'm not trying to rub people the wrong way. I wonder if people understand that it rubs me the wrong way to see folks push policies and pricing levels that basically would have prevented me from getting my dog, and would bar me from dog ownership in the future, though. That's very personal to me. My dog is all I've got (A slight exaggeration, but he's very important to me). Should he pass, I know I'd want to look into another if at all possible. To think that some people would basically want to flip me and those like me the bird and say "Too bad." because of my financial status is deeply offensive to me.

I worry that eventually these ideas people have might even turn into laws and it really might not be possible for me to ever own a dog again after my current dog. That's not the type of thing I can pretend doesn't bother me in order to go along and get along.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Sally's Mom said:


> Maybe I am jaded, but if the purchase price is a stretch at best, how will you deal with a catastrophic health issue? I always had a horse until six years ago and I always said the least of the expense was the purchase price... Obviously the dog upkeep is considerably less, but what if the dog gets away and gets hit by a car? Or it eats a toy and needs surgery?


.. I also just don't see how someone who had to borrow $300 (the entire purchase price) to buy a puppy could afford unexpected expensive medical costs..


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## golden_eclipse (Apr 1, 2011)

I think there is a lot to be said about saving, and that when it comes to a puppy a lot of people don't want to wait or put in the work it takes to save. Well if you have the attitude of not working or saving for a well bred puppy, guess what a breeder can find someone who will. It doesn't matter if you are rich or poor, its about your priorities. 

But I must comment on the rescue idea, I think that might not be a good recommendation, since a rescue dog/puppy will likely face much more expensive vet bills than a carefully bred puppy. So while the initial price might be lower, I think someone considering a rescue should be more financially secure considering the potential for very costly vet bills, as well as possible temperment and behavioral kinks to work out.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

It is a catch 22 with the irresponsible breeders. I would buy all the dogs from them just to give those puppies a good home and make sure the female pups don't turn into another puppy mill. (That's what we did with our current puppy.) Also if people buy from them that will only make them breed the dogs more. Up to recent we purchased all our goldens from reputable breeders with several CHs after the names for 3 generations. Our last puppy with all the CHs attaches Trooper had developed seizures from the age of 7 to almost 14 when he passed. Trooper was one of the smartest dogs we ever had. After Trooper we had a Golden/border collie mix we rescued and he lived to age 16, other than the fact he was a little stubborn and had a sensitive stomach and Lupus, his temperament and demeanor was superb. I miss him everyday. Now we have Rose who has CH on the mother's side going back to GGG parents. We'll see how she turns out - but the day we brought her home we made a commitment to love her NO MATTER WHAT financial or emotional cost we may encounter. It has been quite a long time since we had a puppy in the house but she has brightened our lives so much already.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Not to nitpick, but no one said a CH (or any title, for that matter) in front of the name guarantees anything. A reputable breeder competes with their dogs and gets OFA hip and elbow clearances, a cardiologist heart clearance and an annual eye clearance. I would certainly prefer to see titles in a pedigree (since that means the breeder is competing with their dogs) but a dog can be titled up the whazoo and still not have clearances...


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## Denlie (Nov 3, 2011)

Golden999, I wish you all of the luck and good fortune with yourself and your dog. However, I do respectfully disagree with your statements.

I am a first time Golden owner. Like you, all I wanted was a companion who would be with me for the next 10-12 years. I wasn't planning on showing or breeding my dog. Just wanted a healthy, happy Golden. 

I did several things to get my dog:

1. Researched the breed and discovered that my dog would have a longer, healthier chance at life if I found responsible breeders who practiced the GRA code of ethics.

2. Spent a year saving money for the purchase price of my dog PLUS future vet bills, food, ect. Having a dog is a privilege, not a right. 

3. Also took that time to interview and find a good breeder. I would rather spend more money up front than spending money later on surgeries AND/OR going through the heartache of losing a dog too early.

Eventually I found a breeder that has been breeding and showing Goldens for the past 20 years. I have 5 generations of clearances on my Gracie. AND I spent less money on her than other breeders who were charging more money 
WITHOUT the clearances, ect.

I truly hope that your dog has a very long and happy life with you! It's what every new puppy owner would want from their new dog.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Denlie said:


> Having a dog is a privilege, not a right.


Excellent point


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Does anyone get clearances, hip and elbow Xrays on their spouses or children before commitment? My view is the same with our dogs. They are part of the family no matter what. The dogs that don't have all the CH and clearances need a good family too.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Claudia M said:


> Does anyone get clearances, hip and elbow Xrays on their spouses or children before commitment? My view is the same with our dogs. They are part of the family no matter what. The dogs that don't have all the CH and clearances need a good family too.


Yes they do need families but without the demand unethical breeders would not be in business. These are puppies from parents who should have never been bred. 

And comparing humans and dogs?? Humans are not as inbred as dogs are and if we were, similar tests WOULD be necessary. Genetic counseling/testing DOES exist for couples who know one is a carrier for a genetic disease to make the decision whether or not to have children.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Claudia M said:


> Does anyone get clearances, hip and elbow Xrays on their spouses or children before commitment? My view is the same with our dogs. They are part of the family no matter what. The dogs that don't have all the CH and clearances need a good family too.


When I _*buy *_myself a new husband I'll probably ask for them  

Seriously though, it's not about whether dogs/puppies have a right to a good family. It's about supply and demand. If these irresponsible "breeders" don't have the demand for their puppies that were bred without any regard to health, then they will stop producing them. 

If you are going to add a new pet to your family and you don't want to seek out a reputable breeder, then go to a shelter or rescue...don't pad the pockets of irresponsible breeders. Those homeless pets need good families too....


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## pandamonium (Apr 18, 2012)

......OMG.....:no:


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

So SheetsSm - what is your answer about the dogs that were bred too close or less fortunate? Euthanize them? Unethical breeders will be in business just like drug dealers are in business. I do not agree with their practice. As I said before it's a catch 22 and personally I rather get those puppies, especially the female puppies to make sure they will not turn into another puppy mill.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> When I _*buy *_myself a new husband I'll probably ask for them


You buy a marriage license, you invest your life with someone in a house, car etc. So why wouldn't you ask for hip, elbow xray and blood test to make sure they don't die before you pay the loan off????? Since obviously here many people make emphasis on *BUY*, *MONEY SPENT* etc. 

This emphasis on money and such is what turns me off. This emphasis on the breed and the titles before the name is what turns me off. Excuse me but it more or less sounds like the "Keeping up with the Johns" type attitude. 

Where do you guys think that the SPCA puppies come from? Those breeders will sell what they can and then shove the rest of puppies to SPCA. Or worse, will keep them and abuse them. 

It amazes me the positive responses the article about the lady in TX who saved and adopted that abused dog got on this website. The moneys that lady spent on bringing that dog back to life was her purchase price and she is probably looking at much more during Hope's life. Her commitment was not based on the vet bills, XRays or cardiac exam.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Claudia M said:


> You buy a marriage license, you invest your life with someone in a house, car etc. So why wouldn't you ask for hip, elbow xray and blood test to make sure they don't die before you pay the loan off????? Since obviously here many people make emphasis on *BUY*, *MONEY SPENT* etc.
> 
> This emphasis on money and such is what turns me off. This emphasis on the breed and the titles before the name is what turns me off. Excuse me but it more or less sounds like the "Keeping up with the Johns" type attitude.
> 
> ...


Rescuing a dog from the shelter is different from buying a puppy from a backyard breeder. You can choose to believe whatever you want to make to yourself feel better, but buying a pup from a backyard breeder is NOT equivalent to rescuing. Like goldengal999, she wanted a cute 8 week old purebred golden puppy. She wasn't interested in truly rescuing even when she could've taken in a free dog.. But nope..It wasn't an 8 week old golden.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

My point was that it's a totally different thing. It has nothing to do with keeping up with the Joneses. 

And if I were getting a new puppy, I would consider reputable breeders, shelters and rescues. Reputable breeders DO NOT "shove" puppies to the SPCA....in fact, they put clauses in their contracts prohibiting their puppies from being placed in rescues or shelters! I would be careful about making assumptions about things.....


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Claudia M said:


> So SheetsSm - what is your answer about the dogs that were bred too close or less fortunate? Euthanize them? Unethical breeders will be in business just like drug dealers are in business. I do not agree with their practice. As I said before it's a catch 22 and personally I rather get those puppies, especially the female puppies to make sure they will not turn into another puppy mill.


Euthanize puppies? No! Not sure what I posted for someone to think I was an advocate of euthanizing pups.

However, make it difficult for the pups to be sold, let the greeders have to deal with the offspring they produced, the incorrect temperaments, the health issues...some of these so called breeders are passing these pups on to their new homes as soon as mom no longer wants to take care of them--they've done little to any socialization and you see the reputable breeders on this forum post, the real work begins after mom is done nursing. And since the greeders just "love their precious pups" and are producing fine "show quality" representatives, they wouldn't mind the pitter patter of a couple extra sets of little golden feet right? I've seen firsthand where some of the first time breeders out there that thought they would make a little extra money off the family pets had a rude awakening when they couldn't sell them and trying to keep up with five 12 wk old goldens was a lot of work or when the litter produced a majority of pups with sight impairment and epilepsy (reference Tanner from SGRR)--thankfully, rescue was there.

In all seriousness, rescues exist because of the greeders, we're there serving as the safety net for these dogs cause their breeders won't be there when the health issues are to much of a burden on their owners or the temperaments require serious work with experts or where the poor pup was sold to a family that knew nothing of the breed and just couldn't/wouldn't cope with an adolescent golden once the novelty wore off--shoot, one breeder was posting allover their Facebook account, "first come, first served" so much for seeking the best match in attempt to finding the "forever home" the first time. Nope, there are more options than euthanasia, the best of which would be that there would be no irresponsible breeding...but that's just a pipe dream as long as people remain ignorant of the breed and/or just don't care about a sound golden retriever.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Claudia M said:


> Does anyone get clearances, hip and elbow Xrays on their spouses or children before commitment? My view is the same with our dogs. They are part of the family no matter what. The dogs that don't have all the CH and clearances need a good family too.


 
WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am so in shock of this statement! Not only, comparing dogs to humans, but for other big issues.

IF You love the breed as much as you claim to, the above statement is just ridiculous!!!! 

I wonder how many more dogs will end up at the shelter with this attitude. So, where do you draw the line on which dogs get breed? Should all golden retrievers breed? Do not be mad because you can not afford a dog from a reputable breeder, Save up the money and support them. Why in the world would you support someone that does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING for the breed? Please tell me what back yard breeders do for the BREED? Not themselves, because we all know where that money goes too.

How many more dogs will have to die before you realize that backyard breeders are not the best choice. Shelters kill animals if it they become over populated. I wonder if they will start killing humans if we start over-populating the world?? Animals are not humans!!!!

This is just so crazy for me to see the "logic" in loving backyard breeders or agreeing with what they are doing?? :doh:


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Claudia M said:


> ...personally I rather get those puppies, especially the female puppies to make sure they will not turn into another puppy mill.


If you're rescuing the puppies, who is rescuing the moms? 

The more pups that are sold, the more mom is expected to churn out. My girl was a breeder dog in a mill--she doesn't have a correct temperament, hypothyroid and now I'm having to pursue a neurology consult to assess whether or not she's having seizures after working with specialists to rule out intestinal issues. She was bred when she was a little over a year and again when she was a little over two to her dad who was diagnosed with SAS/lvl 4 heart murmur and physical abnormalities in his foot. Based on the paper trail, two of her pups have also ended up being bred. If the demand didn't exist for cheap pups, she wouldn't have had to endure what she has and perhaps that would've meant she didn't exist either, and I would be ok with that cause she didn't ask for this.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

I wonder how many golden retriever breeders you call out of the newspaper know about SAS? PU? Or any major problems goldens have???!!!! I think I might do an experiment!

But, then again....Why test for it (right?), because you do not test husband and wife before conceiving a child? (So Sarcastic) Just Ridiculous!!


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## goldy1 (Aug 5, 2012)

Sally's Mom said:


> Maybe I am jaded, but if the purchase price is a stretch at best, how will you deal with a catastrophic health issue? I always had a horse until six years ago and I always said the least of the expense was the purchase price... Obviously the dog upkeep is considerably less, but what if the dog gets away and gets hit by a car? Or it eats a toy and needs surgery?


This is what I was thinking. The purchase price - even at 2K - is only a fraction of what it will take to nurture and care for your newest family member. Illnesses, accidents, doggy day care, dog walkers, agility, classes, special diets, extra fees at hotels, equipment, and so much more. Please consider the overall cost of dog ownership. Clearances from a reputable breeder are not a guarantee of future health - although they are important. The purchase price pales in comparison to all the rest of it.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

goldy1 said:


> This is what I was thinking. The purchase price - even at 2K - is only a fraction of what it will take to nurture and care for your newest family member. Illnesses, accidents, doggy day care, dog walkers, agility, classes, special diets, extra fees at hotels, equipment, and so much more. Please consider the overall cost of dog ownership. Clearances from a reputable breeder are not a guarantee of future health - although they are important. The purchase price pales in comparison to all the rest of it.


Honestly, I think some people only deal with things when they happen. I'm quite sure that someone who has to borrow the entire purchase price for a puppy did not worry about unexpected expenses and decided to just deal with them as they come. If I had to borrow $300 for a puppy, NO NO NO WAY would I even consider bringing a puppy home!! What would I do if something happened and I couldn't pay for treatment?? But some people only worry about the initial purchase price because they "need" the puppy now and don't have the money, but they don't worry about the expensive treatment because that's not something they have to think about yet.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

SheetsSM said:


> If you're rescuing the puppies, who is rescuing the moms?
> 
> The more pups that are sold, the more mom is expected to churn out. My girl was a breeder dog in a mill--she doesn't have a correct temperament, hypothyroid and now I'm having to pursue a neurology consult to assess whether or not she's having seizures after working with specialists to rule out intestinal issues. She was bred when she was a little over a year and again when she was a little over two to her dad who was diagnosed with SAS/lvl 4 heart murmur and physical abnormalities in his foot. Based on the paper trail, two of her pups have also ended up being bred. If the demand didn't exist for cheap pups, she wouldn't have had to endure what she has and perhaps that would've meant she didn't exist either, and I would be ok with that cause she didn't ask for this.



We have had nothing but champion pedigree dogs until recently. Our last one Trooper had seizures from age 6 to 13 almost 14 when he passed. Came from reputable breeder with all the papers etc. The fact is that no matter what you get you will still have to expect problems. 3 years after we got Troopie we found this mutt on the side of the road, full of fleas and worms - estimated at 12 weeks old. We assumed it just didn't make the cut for an irresponsible breeder and got let go. He lived to be 16 in our home and other than some stubbornness he was the sweetest thing ever. Troopie and Jack were pals. Troopie the brains and Jacko the heart.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

SheetsSM said:


> Euthanize puppies? No! Not sure what I posted for someone to think I was an advocate of euthanizing pups.
> 
> However, make it difficult for the pups to be sold, let the greeders have to deal with the offspring they produced, the incorrect temperaments, the health issues...some of these so called breeders are passing these pups on to their new homes as soon as mom no longer wants to take care of them--they've done little to any socialization and you see the reputable breeders on this forum post, the real work begins after mom is done nursing.


Sheets - do you really think that an irresponsible breeder would take the time to deal with the offspring if not sold??? No, they will end up like Hope or Roo (stories of abused dogs recently posted on this forum). I am sorry if my heart goes more towards those unfortunate souls as opposed to the sound breed.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Op are you glad you asked this question?

And for the record some of us can very well afford $2,000 dollars for a puppy and have done so previously. Puppy mills are a complete different animal than most family based backyard breeders. So stop with the broad brushes.


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## Rainheart (Nov 28, 2010)

The only thing I have to say is this...

My first golden my parents got for us when I was only 10 died at the age of 5 from lymphoma. She was from a BYB and I never want to go through the pain of losing another one so young. 

Yes, clearances are the very bare minimum of what you want to see when looking at a litter but there are so many other factors. Beamer, my current golden, was well worth the $1500 I paid for him last summer.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Rainheart said:


> The only thing I have to say is this...
> 
> My first golden my parents got for us when I was only 10 died at the age of 5 from lymphoma. She was from a BYB and I never want to go through the pain of losing another one so young.
> 
> Yes, clearances are the very bare minimum of what you want to see when looking at a litter but there are so many other factors. Beamer, my current golden, was well worth the $1500 I paid for him last summer.



My first golden had all his clearances. I wish you could talk to my vet about the cost and heartache we went thru with him. He actually wants to write a book about him. 
My vet is also the one who referred us to Wyatt's breeder. He calls Wyatt our Honda dog because he is low maintenance LOL!


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

For me it's not all about health.. I don't expect to not have any problems with Molly.. Of course not. I would just rather support those who are trying their best to better the breed than someone who isn't. So what if I paid one to two thousand for a dog who ended up with more problems than a backyard bred dog? There are no guarantees in life, in fact I think I am pretty bad luck lol, but at least my money went to the right place. 

If I thought clearances and quality breeding eliminated all health problems why would I be so freaking paranoid about my pup's hips? I am not anymore, but she had x-rays done.


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## SMBC (Jul 31, 2012)

I am also in the process of puppy searching and have been in contact with a reputable breeder in my area. Through my research, I've found that most puppies around here are 1200-2500. The 2500 are the "english creme goldens" that seem to be quite controversial. We are hoping to get a golden puppy from another breeder that shows her dogs and has been doing this for a long time and does get all of her dogs cleared for hips, elbows, eyes and heart. We are just waiting to see if puppies are confirmed...

My last dog came from a back yard breeder (accidental breeding) and although I loved my dog dearly and miss him, he had several health problems and I just cannot go through that again. There's obviously no guarantee even with all the clearances done, but I am trying to ensure to the best of my ability that I get a healthy dog. 

In my opinion, it's worth spending the money upfront to get a dog that you know comes from a healthy pedigree because frankly, vet bills cost a hell of a lot more than an average of 1500 if your dog has a serious health problem. That's just my two cents and what I am doing...=)


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

This is a frankenstein thread. My goodness. The original intent I believe was to find out across the country what the op could expect to pay for a puppy as she described. Well bred with clearances and ch titles on parents. For those posting about back yard breeders, I believe that everyone is well aware if you requirement is it's a golden you can find it on the cheep.
Perhaps your postings whom many here will find offensive (the op is a request for pricing from breeders of show goldens and that is who is responding passionately) would be best served in a thread about that.

Pricing and reputable breeders as asked for by the poster

Reputable breeders ask so much for their puppies because they are worth it. They spend hours, days, years, decades and money producing the best, most healthy, most stable personalities. They do participate in some kind of dog sport. Buyers will ask, "why should I care about titles?" The answer surprisingly to some has a health angle. Dogs judged to be good representatives of the breed in shows, obedience, field work, etc are sound animals.
Above and beyond the clearances this soundness of structure allows your puppy to weight bear correctly and will enjoy a more useable life span and quality of life doing all the great things goldens bring to your life. Going for jogs, hikes, walks, getting in and out of the car for rides. 
Is buying a well bred golden a guarantee health? No. It does better your odds.

If you still wish to speak on your oppinions of backyard breeders please open a new thread as this is not what the poster asked us for.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

LJack said:


> This is a frankenstein thread. My goodness. The original intent I believe was to find out across the country what the op could expect to pay for a puppy as she described. Well bred with clearances and ch titles on parents. For those posting about back yard breeders, I believe that everyone is well aware if you requirement is it's a golden you can find it on the cheep.
> Perhaps your postings whom many here will find offensive (the op is a request for pricing from breeders of show goldens and that is who is responding passionately) would be best served in a thread about that.
> 
> Pricing and reputable breeders as asked for by the poster
> ...


Excuse me but you and nobody else knows what everyone's intentions are why we purchase where we do . And yes I for one am sorry that the op's thread is being hijacked. But some of us will not sit quiet (although some will because they want no conflicts) because some seem to paint with a cocky broad brush.

I hope the op finds a reputable breeder with clearances in her price range as that was her whole intention for this thread. But others do have the right to respond with their knowledge and experience when we see fit. If you would like to start another thread please feel free.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

And some of us will not just ignore it when someone posts "I love backyard breeders" even if it is irrelevant to the original post.


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

Denlie said:


> Golden999, I wish you all of the luck and good fortune with yourself and your dog.


Thanks.



> Having a dog is a privilege, not a right.


Respectfully, and not meaning to jump on you in particular, I hate it when people say stuff like that. Just the phrase viscerally puts me in a bad mood. I understand that people are sometimes coming from a good place and say it with good intentions, but when I read it I just overwhelmingly get the implication of "You're poor? You shouldn't be able to pursue anything, just eat ramen and be miserable, that's what you deserve.". Truth is, I reach for any little bit of happiness I can get, or things that will make my life worth living, whether it be a dog, or a good or a service that people say I "shouldn't have". I sacrifice to do it, I suffer to do it, but in the end, if I didn't do that sort of thing, life would get so bad that I'd want to jump off the nearest bridge.

Having a dog does me a lot of good mentally, physically, and in a thousand other ways. And he's not suffering. He's happy and well cared for. I couldn't find a wife or have kids, but I could find a dog. So I did.

I've even got people who've trashed me for getting a decent phone. I'll never be able to afford a house or a nice car, but I got a decent phone. So sue me. Still not top of the line, but I can check sports scores. If people think that's a bad decision, they should mind their own business, with all due respect. 

Perfect world I'd have a nice house with a wife and kids and a couple cars and a vacation every year and all this other stuff. 90% of what I want out of life, I'll never have (I live in a bad apartment in a bad neighborhood, and there will likely come a time when I have to do that, but with a roommate or something on top of it). But when I see a little something that's part of that dream picture that I can reach out and somehow manage, a golden retriever, a phone, whatever, I try to find a way to go for it.



> I truly hope that your dog has a very long and happy life with you! It's what every new puppy owner would want from their new dog.


Thank you. My dog has had nearly two and half years with me. Roughly 25% of an average golden's life span. I've gotten him what he's needed. He's doing well. I have to scramble sometimes, I had to switch vets, I've had to sacrifice and go through rough months with my budget, but I found a way to make it work. He lives a better life than most dogs, and he's my best pal.



goldenjackpuppy said:


> Seriously though, it's not about whether dogs/puppies have a right to a good family. It's about supply and demand. If these irresponsible "breeders" don't have the demand for their puppies that were bred without any regard to health, then they will stop producing them.


You want to talk supply and demand. Alright. If good breeders would lower their prices and make deals with folks who can't afford them, they'd put breeders they deem irresponsible right out of business. What owner wouldn't want to get health clearances for their new puppy if they could? I tried to work with "responsible" breeders a few years ago, none of them were willing to work with me.

If you're a breeder and don't like breeders who don't do clearances and stuff, compete on price and consider selling at break-even points or even at a loss to help put them out of business by supplying "better" puppies to those who can't afford your current prices. Or keeping doing what you're doing and stop complaining about the people you are trying to lock out of pet ownership and the breeders who help us find companions. You don't like what those breeders are doing, offer their buyers a better alternative at the same price.



> If you are going to add a new pet to your family and you don't want to seek out a reputable breeder, then go to a shelter or rescue...don't pad the pockets of irresponsible breeders. Those homeless pets need good families too....


Rescues charged more than I paid for my puppy for older dogs who are older and thus likely to die sooner and be more prone to those big health issues that are tough to afford, and rescues come with a bunch of contractual terms that dictate too much, and in some cases authorize them to stage commando raids to steal back your dog (This happened to relatives of someone I know well, I'm not making this up). And they wouldn't have fulfilled my desire to raise my own dog through basically his entire life and be with him the whole way.

Shelters don't have the restrictions or the cost of the rescues, but they also don't have many eight week old golden retriever puppies, or even golden retrievers in general, or puppies in general- at least not in my area. I did check out a humane society, and new I wouldn't be happy with the dogs I found. They deserved better than an owner who is going to think of them as second-rate, and I deserved better than dogs who I wouldn't be happy with. In the end, I think me not going that route worked out for the best both for the dogs and for me- it was a no-kill facility, so they are likely now in homes where they are happy and love dearly, and I found a golden I love dearly. There would have been little sense in forcing a bad fit for both myself and a dog that would have resulted from me coming home that day with a dog I wasn't wild about having.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's great when people adopt dogs from shelters and such (I have relatives who did it and found a dog who was a great fit for them). Good for them. It's a good thing to do. Just like adopting orphan human children is a good thing to do. But would you tell a human couple who really wanted their own babies with their own DNA to adopt some 10 year old they really didn't want? Of course not, that wouldn't likely end well for either the couple or the orphan. The couple would be better off having their own children, and the orphan would be better off going to a home where he'd be 100% love and exactly what some couple wanted.



Vhuynh2 said:


> Like goldengal999, she wanted a cute 8 week old purebred golden puppy. She wasn't interested in truly rescuing even when she could've taken in a free dog.. But nope..It wasn't an 8 week old golden.


I'm a guy, not a gal. But, yeah, I wanted an eight week old golden. You've never adopted an eight week old golden? No one else here has? Some people have a special attachment to a certain breed or breeds, and like the experience of raising a puppy into adulthood and sticking with the dog through old age and death. I'm not saying it's a virtue, but it's not a vice either. It's a personal decision and preference that some people make and have, and some people don't. People who fit into both categories are often good people. Nothing wrong with wanting to adopt a puppy of a specific breed, nothing wrong with wanting a mixed breed adult you can "save" from a shelter.



goldy1 said:


> This is what I was thinking. The purchase price - even at 2K - is only a fraction of what it will take to nurture and care for your newest family member. Illnesses, accidents, doggy day care, dog walkers, agility, classes, special diets, extra fees at hotels, equipment, and so much more.


Many of those things are optional. I don't put my dog in boarding kennels or doggy day care. We've slept every night under the same roof as each other. Even when relatives rented a beach place one year and invited me to come on vacation, I brought the dog along. Had the dog not been allowed, I wouldn't have gone. Not saying there is something wrong with boarding kennels or doggy day care (I have relatives who use them routinely for their dog), but for me personally, I wouldn't want to use them unless it were an absolute emergency and I had no other options.

I walk my dog myself, and occasionally a relative will do it for me. Never hired a dog walker. No agility, classes, etc.. I don't stay at hotels (At least not since I've gotten my dog).

It depends on someone's lifestyle, but a lot of these things aren't stuff that's *necessary* for every person or every dog. A lot are what people want to do, or because of specific lifestyles they live that require it.



Vhuynh2 said:


> Honestly, I think some people only deal with things when they happen. I'm quite sure that someone who has to borrow the entire purchase price for a puppy did not worry about unexpected expenses and decided to just deal with them as they come. If I had to borrow $300 for a puppy, NO NO NO WAY would I even consider bringing a puppy home!! What would I do if something happened and I couldn't pay for treatment?? But some people only worry about the initial purchase price because they "need" the puppy now and don't have the money, but they don't worry about the expensive treatment because that's not something they have to think about yet.


In many cases, dogs never require expensive treatment. In other cases, they seem to, but there are alternative treatments options or payment plans, or other things that can be worked out with a little work to figure things out and a willingness to seek out the right vet and do some research and so on and so forth. Sometimes money can be borrowed, etc.. I wouldn't want to live in a society where people demanded you be able to guarantee produce 10k on a dime at any moment or else you can't have a dog- that's ridiculous.



Wyatt's mommy said:


> My first golden had all his clearances. I wish you could talk to my vet about the cost and heartache we went thru with him.


Good point. There are no guarantees in life.


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## az_melanie (Aug 5, 2012)

I'm the original poster here and yes, I think my thread got hijacked!  Very interesting discussion, but yes, I was just curious what the costs would be, across the country for a golden with registered parents that have clearances and possible title's as well . Obviously this is a sensitive subject for many and I am so not getting in the middle of this one! :no: I just want to know prices .


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## az_melanie (Aug 5, 2012)

How do you delete a post???


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Golden999 said:


> I'm a guy, not a gal. But, yeah, I wanted an eight week old golden. You've never adopted an eight week old golden? No one else here has? Some people have a special attachment to a certain breed or breeds, and like the experience of raising a puppy into adulthood and sticking with the dog through old age and death. I'm not saying it's a virtue, but it's not a vice either. It's a personal decision and preference that some people make and have, and some people don't. People who fit into both categories are often good people. Nothing wrong with wanting to adopt a puppy of a specific breed, nothing wrong with wanting a mixed breed adult you can "save" from a shelter.


There is nothing wrong with that. I was just trying to prove a point to someone else that buying a puppy from a backyard breeder is not the same as rescuing, because they suggested that it was.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Vhuynh2 said:


> And some of us will not just ignore it when someone posts "I love backyard breeders" even if it is irrelevant to the original post.


And I applaud you for that. Than debate with them instead of throwing all non clearance doggie owners under the bus. We are not all created equal.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> And I applaud you for that. Than debate with them instead of throwing all non clearance doggie owners under the bus. We are not all created equal.


That statement was for LJack.. I just didn't think she knew that if someone posted something like that on this forum it would NOT be ignored 

But I was debating with them because they said they "love" backyard breeders and equated buying BYB pups to rescuing.. I wasn't debating with you, or throwing everyone under the bus.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Vhuynh2 said:


> That statement was for LJack.. I just didn't think she knew that if someone posted something like that on this forum it would NOT be ignored
> 
> But I was debating with them because they said they "love" backyard breeders and equated buying BYB pups to rescuing.. I wasn't debating with you, or throwing everyone under the bus.


LOL! These darn fur babies make us crazy passionate! I blame it on them :wavey:


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Alright, I guess I am the bad guy here.
I did not suggest that people take any course in this war other than start a new thread where everyone would know what they are arguing over.
The original poster has even expressed a wish she could delete this whole post. 
If you feel you need to duke it out please take it a thread that can properly named. I highly doubt anyone will help the op with what she has asked for when they see this. 
There are some topics that are a can of worms this is a can of snakes.
There are well meaning and passionate folks on both sides. Nobody is going to win this fight. It will grow into a 30 page thread where breeders are going to be portrayed as money grubbers who only want rich folks to own dogs and pet owners who will be emotionally invested because any point discussed is a personal attack on their dog, economic status or decisions.
And so their is no doubt where I stand (I ussually try to be as diplomatic as I can) it is grossly unfair to breed dogs with out clearances. It is unfair to the dog that has to whelp with even a mild case of Dysplasia, it is unfair to the puppies who can't run because it hurts, it is unfair to the senior who looses his eyes, it is unfair to the owner who morns the loss of a few month old puppy to a heart problem. 
If you compete that is my preference, but if you have clearances is the most important thing.
And before these words get put in my mouth, buying a puppy from a reputable breeder does not gaurrenty this still could not happen. Bad things do happen to all dogs. It just happens much less to well bred dogs.
To everyone out there health and happiness to you and your dogs. Please create a new area for this topic if you wish to pursue it.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Claudia M said:


> Sheets - do you really think that an irresponsible breeder would take the time to deal with the offspring if not sold??? No, they will end up like Hope or Roo (stories of abused dogs recently posted on this forum). I am sorry if my heart goes more towards those unfortunate souls as opposed to the sound breed.


You missed the point. I hardly think an 8 week old puppy is an unfortunate soul...the mom & dad that have to live in kennels their whole lives & whose only human interaction is having food thrown in their kennel or being man-handled for breeding or having the pups taken away--that's what I call unfortunate. Keep buying the pups from irresponsible breeders & you guarantee this future for the breeding dogs. 

And no need to educate me on abused or feral goldens or those that got the short end of stick when it came to their first family who couldn't provide for them whether that be emotional, physical or medical...see it everyday volunteering with rescue and have 3 currently laying at my feet who survived it. I get it.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Vhuynh2 said:


> And some of us will not just ignore it when someone posts "I love backyard breeders" even if it is irrelevant to the original post.


I looked thru this thread and I must have missed it but I did not see anyone posting *"I love backyard breeders"*

I got my Rose from a semi-backyard breeder. They are wonderful with the dogs, they love them and treat them good. I have been in touch with them after the purchase, sent them pictures etc. Belle was our only female back in the 70s. Since her, we had only male dogs in our home. So we were looking for a boy. When it was the time to pick up our puppy my heart was split between Rose and Wade. When the breeder told me that she had high demand for female pups, I talked my husband into getting Rose fearing that she may be turned into a puppy machine. I did not want that for her. We are not yet sure if we will breed her once or have her spayed. We have couple more months to decide that. We are still doing research in what is best for her health. If we do breed her we already have good homes for the pups including our home.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

SheetsSM said:


> You missed the point. *I hardly think an 8 week old puppy is an unfortunate soul*...the mom & dad that have to live in kennels their whole lives & whose only human interaction is having food thrown in their kennel or being man-handled for breeding or having the pups taken away--that's what I call unfortunate. Keep buying the pups from irresponsible breeders & you guarantee this future for the breeding dogs.


Wow, just because they are little and cute it doesn't mean that they cannot fall in bad hands or discarded on the side of the road. That's how we found our Jack (GR/BC mix) mutt on the side of the road. He was not older than 12 weeks. I believe that his Lupus and his overly sensitive stomach had something to do with his first weeks of life. 
While it is true that puppies are easier to put for adoption than older dogs it is a matter of finding them in time since a lot of their future health and temperament is based on their early life experiences. 
I command you for your work with rescue shelters. While I do not do that, we have rescued 8 cats in the last 4 years. 4 were kittens that were adopted. the other 4 were older and we kept them, medicated them and spayed them. We spent over $7,000 not counting food, on the cats. We spayed and neutered all of them including the kittens and payed the regular vet and not the butcher vet that only charges $50 for a spay or neuter. All of them were wild and it took time to trap them. Two of my family members are allergic to cats but we still keep them. 2 in the office, one outside our home (she would not come inside - we had to bring her in when it was very hot outside and she hated it) and the one we had inside had hyperthyroid and after medicating her for almost 4 years she passed away Monday a week ago. 
I don't look at just *The Breed* even though we are dog people and absolutely love the GRs. We look at all unfortunate animals who either fell in bad hands or may fall into bad hands.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Claudia M said:


> I looked thru this thread and I must have missed it but I did not see anyone posting *"I love backyard breeders"*


Here it is right on page 2.



Golden999 said:


> I love backyard breeders. Raising inexpensive puppies in a family environment. Nice folks, and with my current dog, the puppies and both parents were all running around together with members of the breeders' extended human family, and had a pool to swim in and all kinds of cool stuff.


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## golden_eclipse (Apr 1, 2011)

Claudia M said:


> I looked thru this thread and I must have missed it but I did not see anyone posting *"I love backyard breeders"*
> 
> I got my Rose from a semi-backyard breeder. They are wonderful with the dogs, they love them and treat them good. I have been in touch with them after the purchase, sent them pictures etc. Belle was our only female back in the 70s. Since her, we had only male dogs in our home. So we were looking for a boy. When it was the time to pick up our puppy my heart was split between Rose and Wade. When the breeder told me that she had high demand for female pups, I talked my husband into getting Rose fearing that she may be turned into a puppy machine. I did not want that for her. We are not yet sure if we will breed her once or have her spayed. We have couple more months to decide that. We are still doing research in what is best for her health. If we do breed her we already have good homes for the pups including our home.


 
Seriously...to save rose from being bred you got her, and are still considering breeding her?!?!?!

Have you heard of these genetic problems that you could be inadvertaly reproducing since you don't know Rose's health history (in her pedigree) : bleeding disorders, cancer in young Goldens, epilepsy, kidney failure in young Goldens (renal dysplasia), ectopic ureters, vascular shunts, hypothyroidism, hypertrophic osteodystrophy, knee cap (patella) problems, osteochrondrosis dessicans, hypoadrenocorticism (Addison’s disease), X-linked muscular dystrophy, congenital diaphragmatic hernias, cryptorchidism, overshot bites, undershot bites, skin conditions, food allergies, swallowing disorders, and temperament problems. Along with multiple eye problems, cataracts, PU, prcd-PRA, PRA1, retnial dysplasia, and a multitude of other problems. Heart defects, mainly SAS, which causes sudden death in affected dogs/puppies. Hip dysplasia, and elbow dysplasia. OCD of the shoulders, and hocks. The list goes on and on.....

NOW the health risks for ROSE......
Pyometra-uterus infection that can result in the death of the bitch
Hydrops-when the bitch goes to deliever the litter, she will often go into shock (low blood pressure due to loss of fluids all at once). 
mastitis-severe bacterial infection of the mammary glands
....the list goes on and on, I didn't even touch on upon the surface....please think a little more than carelessly breeding a back yard bred dog to produce more back yard bred puppies...the cycle must end !


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## vcm5 (Apr 20, 2011)

Claudia M said:


> When the breeder told me that she had high demand for female pups, I talked my husband into getting Rose fearing that she may be turned into a puppy machine. I did not want that for her. We are not yet sure if we will breed her once or have her spayed.


I know I shouldn't be getting into this thread (too much passion for the topic!), but what??? You got her to save her from being bred and now you are considering breeding her??

Does she have all her clearances? Has she competed in any venue? What stud dog are you considering breeding her to?


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## inge (Sep 20, 2009)

vcm5 said:


> I know I shouldn't be getting into this thread (too much passion for the topic!), but what??? You got her to save her from being bred and now you are considering breeding her??
> 
> Does she have all her clearances? Has she competed in any venue? What stud dog are you considering breeding her to?


A bit difficult, considering Rose is a puppy, born in June 2012.....


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## vcm5 (Apr 20, 2011)

inge said:


> A bit difficult, considering Rose is a puppy, born in June 2012.....


I think I typed it a bit wrong - I meant that those are questions to be asked when they are going to be breeding. 

I just mean that I think we should leave breeding to the breeders - the good breeders at that!

Anyways, I just want to say good luck to everyone with their puppies!! Whatever you choose, I hope your sweet puppies are awesome and happy and healthy.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

vcm5 said:


> I know I shouldn't be getting into this thread (too much passion for the topic!), but what??? You got her to save her from being bred and now you are considering breeding her??
> 
> Does she have all her clearances? Has she competed in any venue? What stud dog are you considering breeding her to?


If you go back a couple of pages, you'll see that she isn't interested in clearances because they are not done on humans before they have children.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Wow - many people here are quick to consider everyone but themselves irresponsible individuals. 

Yes we are considering breeding her as I do have all her papers up to the GGG parents. And even with all the history behind the dog even Rose (God Forbid) may develop health problems. If she will be bred she will only be bred one time. You will find recommendations for one time breeding as well as spaying before 5 months. You can have complaications with EVERYTHING. Nothing in life is guaranteed. With all our goldens we never had allergic reactions to the second set of shots as poor Charlie did on this forum. But it worried me that it may happen to Rose as well. I called the vet and as a precaution I gave her a half Benedryl an hour before the shots. Luckily nothing happened. I thank Charlie's owner for that piece of info. 

Back to the breeding issue - We are in discussions with the vet that we have used on all our dogs and the rest of animals since 1972 and I count on their recommendations as Rose grows and has regular visits including simply social visits - Social visits to the vet are quite important - the vet is not just the person that gives shots and meds - the vet is someone the puppy learns to trust and feel comfortable with.


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## inge (Sep 20, 2009)

vcm5 said:


> I just mean that I think we should leave breeding to the breeders - the good breeders at that!
> 
> Anyways, I just want to say good luck to everyone with their puppies!! Whatever you choose, I hope your sweet puppies are awesome and happy and healthy.


I completely agree...my monster puppy just took her sister's ball again, so now they are running around the coffee table...awesome, very happy and reasonably healthy.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

AmbikaGR said:


> Here it is right on page 2.


Ambika, I am sure that Goldy999 did not mean the people that abuse dogs by over-breeding, mistreating them etc. Based on his comments it seems like the dogs he encountered at this breeder were quite happy and well cared for. 

I do think highly of Goldy999 from his comments about how he cares for his puppy and relies on his relationship with his puppy as opposed to kennels or puppy day care. If he can't take the puppy on vacation or trip he rather stay at home. That is what a responsible animal owner does.


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## golden_eclipse (Apr 1, 2011)

Claudia M said:


> Wow - many people here are quick to consider everyone but themselves irresponsible individuals.
> 
> Yes we are considering breeding her as I do have all her papers up to the GGG parents. And even with all the history behind the dog even Rose (God Forbid) may develop health problems. If she will be bred she will only be bred one time. You will find recommendations for one time breeding as well as spaying before 5 months. You can have complaications with EVERYTHING. Nothing in life is guaranteed. With all our goldens we never had allergic reactions to the second set of shots as poor Charlie did on this forum. But it worried me that it may happen to Rose as well. I called the vet and as a precaution I gave her a half Benedryl an hour before the shots. Luckily nothing happened. I thank Charlie's owner for that piece of info.
> 
> ...


I really shouldn't reply to you, because its your kind of attitude that really sets me off...first of all, "papers" mean as much as the darn recycled paper they're written on (clearances are the only thing of value when we are talking about "certifications")...secondly, pure bred dogs are not humans, we have a process of selective breeding that made the golden retriever possible, that must continue for the breed to be successful. You clearly have no idea what its like to be breeder and I advise you to step in the shoes of a responsible breeder for a week, and I guarantee you'll be changing your mind very quickly. The only way that Rose was possible is from decades of responsible breeders who selectively chose breeding stock to create the golden retriever, then decades more of careful breeders preserving the golden retriever and selecting out health problems.....although the back yard breeders that exist today work against this effort and put the golden retriever as it is today in great danger of becoming a breed known not for a golden temperment, but for uncontrollable health problems and an unstable temperment.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

vcm5 said:


> I think I typed it a bit wrong - I meant that those are questions to be asked when they are going to be breeding.
> 
> I just mean that I think we should leave breeding to the breeders - the good breeders at that!
> 
> Anyways, I just want to say good luck to everyone with their puppies!! Whatever you choose, I hope your sweet puppies are awesome and happy and healthy.


VMC5 - I think this whole thread got hijacked because of the definition of "good breeders" and on to deal with the offsprings of the irresponsible breeders.

Of course we have lots of questions before breeding Rose. I let that to our vet. Unfortunately we do not have much time to make that decision since from my current readings a female puppy should be spayed right before 5 months of age if not bred. After the first decision is made we will have close to 2 years to even find a suitable stud. Rest assured that no greedy or bad decisions will be made regarding Rose. Even if we breed her we already have homes for the puppies - my sister in law has rescued dogs all her life and she is absolutely in love with Rose. Same with close family friends. Also, this is the first time since 1970s that we only have one puppy in the home. We have plenty of space, love and funds left for more.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Double post
Sorry


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Claudia M said:


> Unfortunately we do not have much time to make that decision since from my current readings a female puppy should be spayed right before 5 months of age if not bred.



I know that is ONE train of thought but it is far from the one of the majority involved in the dog fancy.


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## golden_eclipse (Apr 1, 2011)

On the negative side, spaying female dogs​

• 
if done before 1 year of age, significantly increases the risk of osteosarcoma (bone cancer); this is a
common cancer in larger breeds with a poor prognosis​​• ​
​
increases the risk of splenic hemangiosarcoma by a factor of 2.2 and cardiac hemangiosarcoma by
a factor of >5; this is a common cancer and major cause of death in some breeds​​• ​
​
triples the risk of hypothyroidism
​​• ​
​
increases the risk of obesity by a factor of 1.6-2, a common health problem in dogs with many
associated health problems​​• ​
​
causes urinary “spay incontinence” in 4-20% of female dogs
​​• ​
​
increases the risk of persistent or recurring urinary tract infections by a factor of 3-4
​​• ​
​
increases the risk of recessed vulva, vaginal dermatitis, and vaginitis, especially for female dogs
spayed before puberty​​• ​
​
doubles the small risk (<1%) of urinary tract tumors
​​• ​
​
increases the risk of orthopedic disorders
​​• ​
​
increases the risk of adverse reactions to vaccinations
http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf
​


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## Bentleysmom (Aug 11, 2012)

I'm going to stop reading this thread. I haven't voiced my opinion on this topic nor will I. No matter what is said here someone jumps on you.
I feel bad for the OP because I understood her original question and this thread has taken a nasty turn.
It was suggested that you start your own thread for this discussion but it didn't happen. I am new here and enjoy it very much. I understand passion leads to strong discussions but this leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
I wish you ALL long, happy, fun filled years with your puppies, no matter where they came from ♥


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

I understand that not everyone can afford a puppy from a reputable breeder. Over 2 years ago when my husband and I first started looking for a well bred, healthy puppy, I knew what to expect cost wise-- my husband didn't. He had a hard time stomaching the hefty price tag at first. I understand people having this knee-jerk reaction to the price. (He's since learned just not to ask me what things cost regarding the dogs! ) So, I get it- I get that $1200-$1500 is a lot to swallow for anyone no matter your SES. But what is with our society's "gotta have it now" mentality? What happened to waiting & saving for something you really wanted? While we could have easily just written a check for our puppy, we instead saved $200+/month in a separate dog account over the 9 months we waited. That money still accrues for emergencies in a separate savings account if we'll ever need it or for the new puppy someday soon. It's a lot less painful to write out that big check if you PLAN AHEAD!  

I'm not even going to address the issues of clearances. There is a Code of Ethics for a reason-- ETHICS-- don't bring puppies into this world with the chance of having a heritable problem you could have screened for. It is unethical.

I did reply to the OP's original question-- in PA/OH the cost is about the same, $1200-$1500. Pet/show being the same price usually.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Golden999 said:


> I love backyard breeders. Raising inexpensive puppies in a family environment. Nice folks, and with my current dog, the puppies and both parents were all running around together with members of the breeders' extended human family, and had a pool to swim in and all kinds of cool stuff.
> 
> The puppy I had as a child actually came from an accidental breeding, and I think the father was a little underage, and he did great. That dog got arthritis and cancer when he was 8 or 9, but that's fairly late into his life. Otherwise, he was perfectly healthy, too. And he also came from great people- a family we knew who loved their dogs to death.
> 
> ...





Claudia M said:


> Ambika, I am sure that Goldy999 did not mean the people that abuse dogs by over-breeding, mistreating them etc. Based on his comments it seems like the dogs he encountered at this breeder were quite happy and well cared for.
> 
> I do think highly of Goldy999 from his comments about how he cares for his puppy and relies on his relationship with his puppy as opposed to kennels or puppy day care. If he can't take the puppy on vacation or trip he rather stay at home. That is what a responsible animal owner does.


I quoted the entire post by Golden999 and I must disagree with you. It is stated right in the post that she loves dog from irresponsible breeders because they "loved their pets to death". Sorry but that is not enough, not even close to male them a responsible breeder. And I do not care how infrequently they breed their dog(s), it is still VERY irresponsible. And to slam responsible breeders because "they are not willing to cut them a break" on the price is wrong - even one who did offer a break but "it was not enough". If they can not afford the puppy price then how do they afford the costs of raising and taking care of the pup. Does not matter how good a home they are the good breeders think of the pups as family for life and will not but their family into a likely bad situation.
Sorry but I still see the original post VERY offensive to responsible breeders. But that may just be my opinion.


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## golden_eclipse (Apr 1, 2011)

The implication really is that responsible breeders don't love their dogs....which is clearly inaccurate, as I see nothing but complete and udder devotion from responsible breeders to their dogs...thus why they think their puppies deserve a home that will work and save for that puppy, and provide that puppy with the best food, the best vet care and for anything that might come up in the future. Lets face it, owning a golden is expensive, a responsible breeder wants to ensure the potential puppy owners can afford the costs of owning one, thus out of love they deny "price cuts" on their precious puppies.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

My answer to the OP's original question is that in the Northeast, prices generally run $1200-$2000. However, there are various breeders in my state that charge $1200-$1600 that really do not have dogs with clrearances in the parents OR clearances behind the parents.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

kdowningxc said:


> The implication really is that responsible breeders don't love their dogs....which is clearly inaccurate, as I see nothing but complete and udder devotion from responsible breeders to their dogs...thus why they think their puppies deserve a home that will work and save for that puppy, and provide that puppy with the best food, the best vet care and for anything that might come up in the future. Lets face it, owning a golden is expensive, a responsible breeder wants to ensure the potential puppy owners can afford the costs of owning one, thus out of love they deny "price cuts" on their precious puppies.


 
Whoa! I don't think that is what anyone is implying. I believe *all of us* love and cherish these wondreful dogs.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

I paid $950 for Flora, who came from a breeder in Wisconsin. 15 years ago we paid about $500 for Carmella, who came from a breeder in Illinois. Seems like the Midwest is much cheaper than the coasts, although I know the other breeder I was considering (and now wish I had gone with ) was asking $1500 for a puppy. She is based in Illinois.

I so desperately want to comment on the other "issue" in this thread, but I'm gonna keep my mouth shut!


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

I paid $1,200 for my Cody 12 years ago in So California.


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

AmbikaGR said:


> And to slam responsible breeders because "they are not willing to cut them a break" on the price is wrong - even one who did offer a break but "it was not enough". If they can not afford the puppy price then how do they afford the costs of raising and taking care of the pup. Does not matter how good a home


My dog is about 2 1/2 years old now. I got him at 8 weeks and so far I've figured out how to get him all his key vaccinations, preventatives, food, treats, water, veterinary care, allergy meds, and so on and so forth. He's an adult now, I manage to raise him successfully despite not being able to afford high price breeders.  How long do I have to do that before I disprove your point? Or are you going to wait to jump on me when he is 12 years old and I can't afford to give him chemotherapy (Which almost never works in dogs, and makes them feel horrible, and many well off people decline for their dog because they don't think it is the proper course of treatment even though they can afford it), and give him steroids and pain pills instead to give him the best possible quality of life in what would probably be close to his natural end without the cancer anyhow? My real life experiences are very different from your assumptions.



> Sorry but I still see the original post VERY offensive to responsible breeders. But that may just be my opinion.


I find posts that say folks who can't afford to plunk down 2k as the purchase price for a puppy aren't good owners and shouldn't have a dog very offensive to humanity.  That's not a knock on the people posting those type of comments, some of them are well-intentioned, they're just wrong, and I wish they'd reconsider their views.



kdowningxc said:


> thus why they think their puppies deserve a home that will work and save for that puppy, and provide that puppy with the best food, the best vet care and for anything that might come up in the future. Lets face it, owning a golden is expensive, a responsible breeder wants to ensure the potential puppy owners can afford the costs of owning one, thus out of love they deny "price cuts" on their precious puppies.


By that logic, we should just reassign all the poor and middle class human children to rich parents who can feed them lobster and cavier every night, send them to the best private schools, and take them to the best doctors. If you really think about what you're typing, I think you'll realize how elitist it sounds.

Poor parents can still be very good parents, and poor people can still be very good dog owners. They just sometimes have to work a little harder to find affordable ways to take care of their children/pets than well off people do.

And, by the way, there are some rich people who are very bad parents and very bad dog owners. Money doesn't automatically make you good at caring for another life.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Golden999, I think everyone was trying to get back to the OPs question....maybe let's all just let this one go and agree to disagree????


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

AmbikaGR said:


> I quoted the entire post by Golden999 and I must disagree with you. It is stated right in the post that she loves dog from irresponsible breeders because they "loved their pets to death". Sorry but that is not enough, not even close to male them a responsible breeder. And I do not care how infrequently they breed their dog(s), it is still VERY irresponsible. And to slam responsible breeders because "they are not willing to cut them a break" on the price is wrong - even one who did offer a break but "it was not enough". If they can not afford the puppy price then how do they afford the costs of raising and taking care of the pup. Does not matter how good a home they are the good breeders think of the pups as family for life and will not but their family into a likely bad situation.
> Sorry but I still see the original post VERY offensive to responsible breeders. But that may just be my opinion.


Unfortunately Ambika, not all people can afford the $2000 per puppy up front. Simple as that. To go from there and say that they should not own a GR in my opinion it is a stretch. The vets and animal hospitals do work with people on payment plans. I know my vet does. Frankly you cannot judge a person by how much money they make in order to know how they will care for the animals. Look at Michael Vick. Another example, my daughter walks a dog in our neighborhood. The family is wealthy (pays cash not for a puppy but for a 1/2 mil home) but just too busy to spend time with the 2 yo Vizsla pup but they have matching collars and leashes to their clothes. The puppy is not socialized, gets into fights with other dogs etc. We are simply waiting for the daughter to move away so we can ask to buy the puppy and put her on a better track. Meanwhile we help from the distance. She loves my daughter to death and everytime she is at our house we work with her. 

Obviously there are breeders on this website that get touchy about their work and puppies. I can totally understand that because they do something they love and take pride in. 

The thing that I do like in a pet is that they don't care how rich or poor you are, how big or small your house is, they love you unconditionally and they are there for you NO MATTER WHAT! And yup - that is what Goldy999 gives to his companion.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Golden999 said:


> My dog is about 2 1/2 years old now. I got him at 8 weeks and so far I've figured out how to get him all his key vaccinations, preventatives, food, treats, water, veterinary care, allergy meds, and so on and so forth. He's an adult now, I manage to raise him successfully despite not being able to afford high price breeders.  How long do I have to do that before I disprove your point? Or are you going to wait to jump on me when he is 12 years old and I can't afford to give him chemotherapy (Which almost never works in dogs, and makes them feel horrible, and many well off people decline for their dog because they don't think it is the proper course of treatment even though they can afford it), and give him steroids and pain pills instead to give him the best possible quality of life in what would probably be close to his natural end without the cancer anyhow? My real life experiences are very different from your assumptions.
> 
> I find posts that say folks who can't afford to plunk down 2k as the purchase price for a puppy aren't good owners and shouldn't have a dog very offensive to humanity.  That's not a knock on the people posting those type of comments, some of them are well-intentioned, they're just wrong, and I wish they'd reconsider their views.
> 
> ...


What you have provided for your pup up to now is bare minimum care. And that is wonderful. I do not question your love or devotion to your pup, not in the least. But I, me, myself as the breeder of a pup would not be comfortable putting one of my pups into that kind of situation. 

How is my caring about where my pups go an insult to humanity? Because I have invested years into proving my dogs in various venues and doing all the screenings and then done the best to help insure the health of the pups and expect to be reciprocated for that? 
You realize very few responsible breeders make a "living" breeding their dogs? It is not profitable enough to do so. Now the backyard breeder who does not prove their dogs, gets their vet to assure them their dog is healthy so clearances are not needed and regularly use their own dogs as stud and dam, those are the ones who make a "living" by breeding. They have nothing financially invested into their "breeding program".


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## Tayla's Mom (Apr 20, 2012)

kdowningxc said:


> I think there is a lot to be said about saving, and that when it comes to a puppy a lot of people don't want to wait or put in the work it takes to save. Well if you have the attitude of not working or saving for a well bred puppy, guess what a breeder can find someone who will. It doesn't matter if you are rich or poor, its about your priorities.
> 
> But I must comment on the rescue idea, I think that might not be a good recommendation, since a rescue dog/puppy will likely face much more expensive vet bills than a carefully bred puppy. So while the initial price might be lower, I think someone considering a rescue should be more financially secure considering the potential for very costly vet bills, as well as possible temperment and behavioral kinks to work out.


I disagree totally. Rescue dogs come from someplace and many come from breeders initially and are turned over to rescue by people who just couldn't handle a puppy. I also know of several people who have purchased from responsible breeders who have all the clearances and their dogs have developed some sad health issues, including SAS. I happens. All of my dogs have been from rescues and have lived long wonderful lives. My golden is almost 15 and was a rescue. My newest golden puppy is a rescue who got her from a breeder with papers. AKC will give papers to almost anyone as my husband's first dog was AKC from a pet store.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Claudia M said:


> Unfortunately Ambika, not all people can afford the $2000 per puppy up front. Simple as that. To go from there and say that they should not own a GR in my opinion it is a stretch. The vets and animal hospitals do work with people on payment plans. I know my vet does. Frankly you cannot judge a person by how much money they make in order to know how they will care for the animals.


So I guess in this time of "NOW" no one needs to save for what they truly want. It should just be given to them. And some vet clinics will work with you some will not. It does not mean one is right and one os wrong. 



Claudia M said:


> Look at Michael Vick.


REALLY??? VICK!!! I won't even comment. :doh:



Claudia M said:


> Another example, my daughter walks a dog in our neighborhood. The family is wealthy (pays cash not for a puppy but for a 1/2 mil home) but just too busy to spend time with the 2 yo Vizsla pup but they have matching collars and leashes to their clothes. The puppy is not socialized, gets into fights with other dogs etc. We are simply waiting for the daughter to move away so we can ask to buy the puppy and put her on a better track. Meanwhile we help from the distance. She loves my daughter to death and everytime she is at our house we work with her.


I hope the pup gets out of this situation very quickly. But was this pup from a responsible breeder? Was it well bred? And no where did anyone state money makes good pet owners. 



Claudia M said:


> Obviously there are breeders on this website that get touchy about their work and puppies. I can totally understand that because they do something they love and take pride in.


But they are wrong to charge what they see as a fair price for their pups if they are not willing to "cut a break" to those who can not afford it?



Claudia M said:


> The thing that I do like in a pet is that they don't care how rich or poor you are, how big or small your house is, they love you unconditionally and they are there for you NO MATTER WHAT! And yup - that is what Goldy999 gives to his companion.


And for this reason I as a breeder am expected to place my pup in a situation I do not feel is correct and charge whatever price someone who says they are a good companion to dogs are willing to pay?


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Honestly it is not about the almighty dollar but fair is fair. and to compare the prices of breeders who do it right and are not willing to cut their prices to breeders who do nothing other than breed their dogs (even if it is just ONE time) is not right. Trust me that second breeder makes more of a profit on one litter than most responsible breeders do on 10 litters. (And I am up to an astronomical number of 2 litters so far in my lifetime.)


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

AmbikaGR said:


> What you have provided for your pup up to now is bare minimum care.


Not really. The law in my state is the legal bare minimum care is food, water, shelter, and a rabies vaccine. I go way beyond the bare minimum. My comparatively better off relatives don't do for their dog half of what I do for mine and I think half question my sanity over my Heartguard and my Frontline and my this and that. But I really love my dog and find a way to do what *I* think needs to be done anyhow.



> And that is wonderful. I do not question your love or devotion to your pup, not in the least. But I, me, myself as the breeder of a pup would not be comfortable putting one of my pups into that kind of situation.


I don't really mind that people want to choose who they sell their puppies to and where they're homed. You can be as picky as you want to be about that and won't got much argument from me. What bothers me is that same breeders turn around and then say breeders who are willing to sell to caring committed dog owners who don't meet some of the ritzier breeders' often financially based criteria are somehow automatically evil or wrong or should be stopped. They're providing a valuable service to a lot of loving dog owners who value that companionship and otherwise wouldn't have it, and creating a lot of dogs who are loved and cared for and happy, and who otherwise would have never been born.

There's sometimes sort of this implication that dogs like mine would be better off not existing (Because that's what would happen if you shut down the breeders like the ones I bought from) than living with me. I think that's ridiculous. Today my dog has gotten a nice treat, some food, water his monthly flea/tick medicine, a heartguard chewable, some allergy medicine, etc.. He's gotten to hang out around me almost all day (If I didn't have health problems and had to work all day, he'd be stuck by himself). Soon we're going to go for a walk. Later we'll probably play some indoor fetch. I took him to the backyard earlier, we'll do it again before bed. I pet him so often that people think he's professionally groomed.

Yesterday, he got to ride in the car and go visit my relatives and their dog and another dog they are house sitting, and I took them out to the yard several times where they could all run around and wrestle and play bite and slide down hills and mark bushes and trees and have a grand old time.

I am not saying my dog is like living a totally awesome top 1% life, but he's got it pretty good for a dog. 



AmbikaGR said:


> So I guess in this time of "NOW" no one needs to save for what they truly want. It should just be given to them.


You ever tried living on like $1,000 a month? Saving ain't easy when things are that tight. You've got to have a superb amount of self-discipline that is well beyond most people to do that on that income. Heck, it takes discipline to save when you make $5,000 a month, I'm sure, but not nearly as much, because you don't have to go without nearly as much to put $100 or $200 a month away when your base income is higher- it hurts a lot less.



> And some vet clinics will work with you some will not. It does not mean one is right and one os wrong.


I think it kind of does. I know veterinary medicine is a business, but if you go into that business, I'd like to think that you love animals enough that if you see one suffering and an owner who wants to pay you to help, you'd be willing to provide that help, even if it means getting paid in installments, or discounting your rate a little bit, or even offering an alternate course of treatment that might save the owner money.

Vets who see a dog with a tumor and want to charge $1,000 for excision and testing, all upfront, and then just tell the owner "Have the dog put down if you can't pay it." (A story I read in an online review) are jerks and should find another field of work. Do the excision without the testing so the owner can afford it (Which is what the person in the story found a vet who would do), offer the owner a payment plan for the combination, maybe offer a discount if the owner can provide proof of (lack of) high income, do whatever (lots of possibilities); but if your only answer is "If you want, I can kill your dog for you instead.", that's a problem. Even if I were rich, I wouldn't want to go for a vet like that, because I question whether a vet like that really cares about the animals she treats.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

At this point I will do as someone earlier suggested. I'll just agree to disagree and move on.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Claudia M said:


> I don't look at just *The Breed* even though we are dog people and absolutely love the GRs. We look at all unfortunate animals who either fell in bad hands or may fall into bad hands.


And by you purchasing one, you encourage the production of more...unless of course you intend to purchase every backyard bred puppy, but then again you want females right? for the potential to have a litter?


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

SheetsSM said:


> And by you purchasing one, you encourage the production of more...unless of course you intend to purchase every backyard bred puppy, but then again you want females right? for the potential to have a litter?


I wonder, when Claudia M had to convince her husband to go along with picking a girl, if possibly making money off of a litter was used to convince him to agree.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

to the OP, I do hope you find a responsibly bred golden. I had the privilege of walking with my golden girl in the Parade of Rescues last year at Nationals and was able to finally see & meet well-bred goldens, what a difference. For me, I'll probably always have rescues, but by learning how/what breed should be it just makes me that more of advocate for responsible breeding and educating folks on what a truly responsible & reputable breeder is (though I realize it's not always so clear). The dogs deserve better.


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## goldy1 (Aug 5, 2012)

Tayla's Mom said:


> .....
> AKC will give papers to almost anyone as my husband's first dog was AKC from a pet store.


This is true. Our first dog together when we bought a house (back in '79) was from a pet store (we didn't know better back then). My puppy's parents were both AKC registered and we registered him. A German Shepherd, he had a great temperment and was healthy and lived until almost 14. This was pure luck I know now, many years and dogs later.


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## goldy1 (Aug 5, 2012)

Watching the Parade of Rescues always brings tears to my eyes. (not sad tears, good ones!)


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

SheetsSM said:


> to the OP, I do hope you find a responsibly bred golden. I had the privilege of walking with my golden girl in the Parade of Rescues last year at Nationals *and was able to finally see & meet well-bred goldens, what a difference.* For me, I'll probably always have rescues, but by learning how/what breed should be it just makes me that more of advocate for responsible breeding and educating folks on what a truly responsible & reputable breeder is (though I realize it's not always so clear). The dogs deserve better.


Are you talking about looks?


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## Bentleysmom (Aug 11, 2012)

I've had rescues my whole life but never heard of the Parade of Rescues, sounds like a lot of fun!



SheetsSM said:


> to the OP, I do hope you find a responsibly bred golden. I had the privilege of walking with my golden girl in the Parade of Rescues last year at Nationals and was able to finally see & meet well-bred goldens, what a difference. For me, I'll probably always have rescues, but by learning how/what breed should be it just makes me that more of advocate for responsible breeding and educating folks on what a truly responsible & reputable breeder is (though I realize it's not always so clear). The dogs deserve better.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

goldy1 said:


> This is true. Our first dog together when we bought a house (back in '79) was from a pet store (we didn't know better back then). My puppy's parents were both AKC registered and we registered him. A German Shepherd, he had a great temperment and was healthy and lived until almost 14. *This was pure luck I know now*, many years and dogs later.


Pure luck? So I had bad luck because my well breed dog was unhealthy?


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Golden999 said:


> I think it kind of does. I know veterinary medicine is a business, but if you go into that business, I'd like to think that you love animals enough that if you see one suffering and an owner who wants to pay you to help, you'd be willing to provide that help, even if it means getting paid in installments, or discounting your rate a little bit, or even offering an alternate course of treatment that might save the owner money.
> 
> Vets who see a dog with a tumor and want to charge $1,000 for excision and testing, all upfront, and then just tell the owner "Have the dog put down if you can't pay it." (A story I read in an online review) are jerks and should find another field of work. Do the excision without the testing so the owner can afford it (Which is what the person in the story found a vet who would do), offer the owner a payment plan for the combination, maybe offer a discount if the owner can provide proof of (lack of) high income, do whatever (lots of possibilities); but if your only answer is "If you want, I can kill your dog for you instead.", that's a problem. Even if I were rich, I wouldn't want to go for a vet like that, because I question whether a vet like that really cares about the animals she treats.


Your sense of entitlement is astounding! Breeders who pour countless hours and many thousands of dollars into their breeding programs and who are already very likely selling their puppies at a loss should cut their prices by 2/3 because that's all you can afford to borrow from some well meaning person to get yourself a dog. Vets who spent upwards of $100,000 dollars on school and who are responsible for putting food on their family's table -- as well as for paying the vet techs, office assistants, billing specialists and whoever else may happen to work for them so that they can do the same -- should donate their care to you. Where does it end? What else does the world-at-large owe you? 

Oh, and if you honestly believe that you know human medical people who would perform an operation or procedure on your dog as a favor to you, you should think again. No human doctor is going to put his or her license on the line because you couldn't bother to plan ahead for an emergency with your dog. Not to mention that the anatomy of a human differs significantly from that of a dog, as do the safety and dosage of various medications. They would not be able to provide competent care to your dog. But hey, I suppose risking their livelihood and living with the guilt of possibly butchering your dog is just another thing that these people "owe" to you.

I googled some rescues in Pennsylvania. Going adoption fees seem to be between $300 and $400 for young dogs (including puppies). Seems the adoption fee could certainly have been affordable had you been willing to wait for the right pup to come in. As long as you don't lie to the rescue about abandoning your dog alone in the backyard, you have no worries about a black ops mission to steal the dog back. Since you've already stated you don't do that... no problem there. So what's the real reason you didn't rescue? If I had to bet, I'd guess it came right back to that "I want it and I want it NOW" attitude some other posters mentioned.



Wyatt's mommy said:


> Pure luck? So I had bad luck because my well breed dog was unhealthy?


Unfortunately, yes. What else would you call it? Do you believe that the breeder intentionally produced an unhealthy puppy and sold it to you? (honest question) If not, if you believe that they were trying to do the best that they could, unfortunately bad luck is all you have left. I'm very sorry for your loss and hope you don't take any of this as sarcastic. It's not at all. My breeder (who also happens to be my father) lost Jersey's littermate at 15 months to a very aggressive cancer that had no history in the lines behind our dogs. Tissue samples were sent to experts for opinions, and all anyone could come up with is the fact that goldens are prone to cancer and she happens to be one of the ones that got it. There was nothing that could have been done (with the limit of knowledge we currently have about cancer) to avoid it. It was a crushing blow to all of us. But the unfortunate fact is that even when you try to do everything right, bad things still happen sometimes.

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Jersey's Mom said:


> Unfortunately, yes. What else would you call it? Do you believe that the breeder intentionally produced an unhealthy puppy and sold it to you? (honest question) If not, if you believe that they were trying to do the best that they could, unfortunately bad luck is all you have left. I'm very sorry for your loss and hope you don't take any of this as sarcastic. It's not at all. My breeder (who also happens to be my father) lost Jersey's littermate at 15 months to a very aggressive cancer that had no history in the lines behind our dogs. Tissue samples were sent to experts for opinions, and all anyone could come up with is the fact that goldens are prone to cancer and she happens to be one of the ones that got it. There was nothing that could have been done (with the limit of knowledge we currently have about cancer) to avoid it. It was a crushing blow to all of us. But the unfortunate fact is that even when you try to do everything right, bad things still happen sometimes.
> 
> Julie, Jersey and Oz



I would call it an unhealthy dog. A breeder that unfortunately produced an unhealthy dog. Yes all dogs can develop cancer I know that but he had alot of other problems also. And I don't think I am lucky my Wyatt is healthy. 
He is healthy because his breeder produced a healthy dog.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> I would call it an unhealthy dog. A breeder that unfortunately produced an unhealthy dog. Yes all dogs can develop cancer I know that but he had alot of other problems also. And I don't think I am lucky my Wyatt is healthy.
> He is healthy because his breeder produced a healthy dog.


And his breeder was lucky to do so considering he or she put absolutely no effort into avoiding common genetic issues with hips, elbows, hearts or eyes (at minimum). You sound like you honestly believe that breeders who perform clearances as a whole have dogs who are less healthy than your average Joe Schmo BYB up the street who breeds Fluffy to Bruno just because he happens to have two dogs with sex organs intact. You sound like the breeder of your first dog should have known better. Yet I think I read in another thread that you still recommend people to that breeder because it wasn't their fault. I really don't get it. If it wasn't their fault and it wasn't bad luck... what else could it possibly be? 

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Jersey's Mom said:


> And his breeder was lucky to do so considering he or she put absolutely no effort into avoiding common genetic issues with hips, elbows, hearts or eyes (at minimum). You sound like you honestly believe that breeders who perform clearances as a whole have dogs who are less healthy than your average Joe Schmo BYB up the street who breeds Fluffy to Bruno just because he happens to have two dogs with sex organs intact. You sound like the breeder of your first dog should have known better. Yet I think I read in another thread that you still recommend people to that breeder because it wasn't their fault. I really don't get it. If it wasn't their fault and it wasn't bad luck... what else could it possibly be?
> 
> Julie, Jersey and Oz


Quit putting words in my mouth. I don't believe anything of the sort. I have always said it was not my breeders fault. Yes she is still my friend and yes I would recommend her.

You asked me other than bad luck what else could it be. Truth is it was an unhealthy dog. Not unlucky. If that were the case than we would be saying she just got "lucky" with her healthy dogs.

Wyatt's breeder is one lucky breeder. We have get togethers with all the other puppy's in the litter. I will be sure to tell them how lucky we are . LOL!


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Quit putting words in my mouth. I don't believe anything of the sort. I have always said it was not my breeders fault. Yes she is still my friend and yes I would recommend her.
> 
> You asked me other than bad luck what else could it be. Truth is it was an unhealthy dog. Not unlucky. If that were the case than we would be saying she just got "lucky" with her healthy dogs.


I didn't put any words in your mouth. I told you what it sounded like to me. And said I didn't understand because you had said something that sounded different in another thread. No need to get snarky. 

Yes he was an unhealthy dog. That kind of goes without saying. You were unlucky to have to live with the pain of losing him too young. His breeder was unlucky to have produced a dog with a number of problems despite trying her best to do the right things. That's what makes her healthy dogs more than luck, though. She put effort into it. Wyatt's breeder did not. I am truly happy for you that he has been healthy and happy. But it doesn't change the fact that his breeder took a huge gamble in breeding two dogs whose health she (or he) knew very little about. 

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## Nairb (Feb 25, 2012)

I found that everyone was charging $1500-$1700 in my area....even the questionable breeders. I had to go to a neighboring state to find a breeder I was comfortable with. Prices were in that rage there as well.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Jersey's Mom said:


> I didn't put any words in your mouth. I told you what it sounded like to me. And said I didn't understand because you had said something that sounded different in another thread. No need to get snarky.
> 
> Yes he was an unhealthy dog. That kind of goes without saying. You were unlucky to have to live with the pain of losing him too young. His breeder was unlucky to have produced a dog with a number of problems despite trying her best to do the right things. That's what makes her healthy dogs more than luck, though. She put effort into it. Wyatt's breeder did not. I am truly happy for you that he has been healthy and happy. But it doesn't change the fact that his breeder took a huge gamble in breeding two dogs whose health she (or he) knew very little about.
> 
> Julie, Jersey and Oz



Nah you assumed way too much nonsense. You could have straight out asked me. Wyatt's breeder knows everything about her dogs. Every person that purchase's a dog takes a risk.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Vhuynh2 said:


> I wonder, when Claudia M had to convince her husband to go along with picking a girl, if possibly making money off of a litter was used to convince him to agree.


You know what happens when you assume. You are one nasty and indecent poster on this forum. I certainly hope you are not a breeder because anything you produce does not deserve you!

If you read my post with comprehension you would know that I would never sell a puppy, they would simply be given to family and friends. But obviously since you do not have any reading comprehension you also did not understand that I am weighing Rose's health in my decision to or not to breed. 
SHAME ON YOU!


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

What was the original question? There are some valid points, but isn 't there a bit of digression?


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Claudia M said:


> You know what happens when you assume. You are one nasty and indecent poster on this forum. I certainly hope you are not a breeder because anything you produce does not deserve you!
> 
> If you read my post with comprehension you would know that I would never sell a puppy, they would simply be given to family and friends. But obviously since you do not have any reading comprehension you also did not understand that I am weighing Rose's health in my decision to or not to breed.
> SHAME ON YOU!


I did read, that's why I said "possibly". I am not trying to be nasty or indecent.. It's just that when people say they want to breed their pup makes me really mad, especially when you said you wanted to save her from being bred for profit. Sorry if I made you angry or mad.. I am not implying you are a bad person either, just misinformed. If you were truly concerned about her health though, there would be no question that you should not breed her.

I know you probably said it out of anger, but my pup is very lucky to have me, as I am lucky to have her. You implying that my pup doesn't deserve me is extremely mean and hurtful. I am not a breeder, but you shouldn't be one either. And I am not going to say your pup doesn't deserve you, even though you are already planning on breeding her when she's way too young for you to even know what kind of temperament she is going to grow up to have. Shame on YOU for wanting to breed your backyard bred dog. That's what we need right, more backyard breeders with "amazing" dogs who should be bred because so many friends and family want a pup out of them, or simply just to profit off of them. 

I am not here to make enemies with you or anyone else.. so I am sincerely sorry that I have hurt your feelings.. whether you see the other side of it all or not..


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## vcm5 (Apr 20, 2011)

Claudia M said:


> You know what happens when you assume. You are one nasty and indecent poster on this forum. I certainly hope you are not a breeder because anything you produce does not deserve you!


I'm sorry but this is a horrible, mean thing to say to anyone - far worse than the comment that got you so upset. What a horrendous level to sink to, to imply that someones dogs or potential puppies deserve better than to be with them! How absolutely ugly! I know I would feel horrible if someone said that to me.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Is it just me...or do some members think that clearances are useless??? Because that is what it sounds like to me. Correct me if I am wrong!


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

vcm5 said:


> I'm sorry but this is a horrible, mean thing to say to anyone - far worse than the comment that got you so upset. What a horrendous level to sink to, to imply that someones dogs or potential puppies deserve better than to be with them! How absolutely ugly! I know I would feel horrible if someone said that to me.


Thank you, but I am not going to hold it against her, even though it really did hurt my feelings. People say a lot of things they shouldn't when they are angry.


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## vcm5 (Apr 20, 2011)

Vhuynh2 said:


> Thank you, but I am not going to hold it against her, even though it really did hurt my feelings. People say a lot of things they shouldn't when they are angry.


I am sorry I got so up in arms, I just know all the things you have done for Molly and all the worries you have had and the X-Rays and everything, it just hurt me to see that implied! I know I would be so sad if someone said that to me.

We may all disagree about breeders and clearances - I know I disagree about a lot of the things being posted here about breeding practices. But I disagree with bad breeding, I don't think that anyone is a bad owner or that anyone has a bad dog and I think that we should never go to that level. 

Lets discuss breeders and clearances and proper breeding practices and costs, but lets not get personal about each other and our dogs.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

kfayard said:


> Is it just me...or do some members think that clearances are useless??? Because that is what it sounds like to me. Correct me if I am wrong!


I can only speak for myself . No I don't think they are useless.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

vcm5 said:


> I am sorry I got so up in arms, I just know all the things you have done for Molly and all the worries you have had and the X-Rays and everything, it just hurt me to see that implied! I know I would be so sad if someone said that to me.


You're so sweet  I have gone above and beyond for Molly, so I know I'm a great doggy momma.. regardless of what other people say


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Nah you assumed way too much nonsense. You could have straight out asked me. Wyatt's breeder knows everything about her dogs. Every person that purchase's a dog takes a risk.


I assumed nothing. I told you what I was "hearing" and told you I didn't understand (in other words, asked you to clarify). You don't need to be defensive and call it nonsense. You could have just explained. 

Does Wyatt's breeder know what his parents' hips and elbows look like? How about their retinas? Does she know without a doubt that they are without a heart murmur? If the clearances weren't done, the answer is no, she does not. She knows that they run and play and have fun. So does my rescue puppy with bilateral hip dysplasia. I know he has dysplasia because I cared enough to run a simple X ray (which was not sent to OFA because he is an unknown mix with no intent for breeding... there would be no benefit). Similarly, so does my father's dog with retinal dysplasia. He knows she has retinal dysplasia because he cared enough to bring her to a board certified opthamologist for a CERF exam. I'm certain that Wyatt is a wonderful dog and truly hope that he remains healthy to a very old age, but the facts are the facts. And the fact is that no, his breeder did not know everything about her dogs. Because it wasn't important enough to her to bother finding out. That's not a breeder I would recommend to anyone, even if she did happen to produce a wonderful pup in Wyatt.

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Vhuynh2 said:


> I did read, that's why I said "possibly". I am not trying to be nasty or indecent.. It's just that when people say they want to breed their pup makes me really mad, especially when you said you wanted to save her from being bred for profit. Sorry if I made you angry or mad.. I am not implying you are a bad person either, just misinformed. If you were truly concerned about her health though, there would be no question that you should not breed her.


Once again VHNYNH2 - you assume that she is not suitable for breeding. I DO NOT KNOW and I have no clue how many times I should say this if she is or not suitable for breeding. Her papers are quite impressive even though YOU and the rest of your ilk seem to discard. I have time to make that decision. I am not misinformed, as a matter of fact I weigh in all the options and the ONLY person I trust is my VET as I said it in my previous post. My vet will check her parents as well as her. And yeah I can afford it. The info people read online are both pro and against spaying, it is unbalanced and both sides are exaggerated. You guys are ONCE AGAIN way too quick to assume one as a money hungry, irresponsible breeder, not suited to have a puppy (see your comments to Goldy999) just because it does not come from your little inner circle of life. Please stop assuming things about people. 
And once again it comes to reading comprehension - I said *IF YOU ARE A BREEDER*


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Claudia M said:


> Once again VHNYNH2 - you assume that she is not suitable for breeding. I DO NOT KNOW and I have no clue how many times I should say this if she is or not suitable for breeding. Her papers are quite impressive even though YOU and the rest of your ilk seem to discard. I have time to make that decision. I am not misinformed, as a matter of fact I weigh in all the options and the ONLY person I trust is my VET as I said it in my previous post. My vet will check her parents as well as her. And yeah I can afford it. The info people read online are both pro and against spaying, it is unbalanced and both sides are exaggerated. You guys are ONCE AGAIN way too quick to assume one as a money hungry, irresponsible breeder, not suited to have a puppy (see your comments to Goldy999) just because it does not come from your little inner circle of life. Please stop assuming things about people.
> And once again it comes to reading comprehension - I said *IF YOU ARE A BREEDER*


What? I never said you (or golden999) shouldn't/is not suited to have a puppy. And I'm not going to insult your reading comprehension. If I implied anything, it would be that there is a right and wrong time for things.. many people don't want to wait for the right time.. but I don't want to go back to the finances issue. I also never said you couldn't afford anything. Maybe it's just me, but I like to plan for disasters when two of my friends had multi thousand dollar surgeries for their dogs before they were even one year old. One can't just hope that the bad things won't happen because they don't happen to every dog. There was a thread where someone's vet recommended that they get pet insurance BECAUSE they own goldens, since they are prone to health problems. And NO, I am not implying that YOU don't have the funds or that you don't plan ahead.

What does it matter, breeder or not? Breeders have puppies.. I have a puppy.. what is the difference? If I bred puppies they don't deserve me, but somehow one that I purchased and is LIVING with me (vs if it were a pup who will end up with other parents) does?

You know, a lot of people say their dogs are healthy and fit to be bred because they were checked out by a veterinarian. Do you think that's all a good breeder does before they breed dogs? Take them to the vet? If you can afford it, please get all four clearances done.

Who is against spaying? Early spaying yes, but spaying all together?


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

Jersey's Mom said:


> Your sense of entitlement is astounding!


I think entitlement is awesome.  Everyone should feel entitled to lead the best life they can manage and to pursue happiness to the best of their ability as long as they aren't hurting others in so doing. No one should feel restricted by the disapproval of busybodies who like to watch people suffer and go without because it makes them feel better about themselves.  In my personal opinion.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Claudia M said:


> I am not misinformed, as a matter of fact I weigh in all the options and the ONLY person I trust is my VET as I said it in my previous post. My vet will check her parents as well as her.


You must have one impressive vet who is qualified to take OFA quality x-rays and is a certified cardiologist and an ophthalmologist!


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## AbbysMom505 (Jun 16, 2012)

That seems fairly normal...the goldens in this area go for $500 to $1,000 each. About $800 in Oregon where my Mom lives.... We were super fortunate...both of our girls were free...they were *surprise* litter.  


Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


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## Denlie (Nov 3, 2011)

Wow. Who likes to watch people suffer and go without? 

I'm a single mom who makes about $1200 per month. I completely understand about living paycheck to paycheck. I desperately wanted a dog and my kids wanted a dog. But I waited until I could save the money to get the kind of puppy that we wanted.

I don't begrudge people who have more than me. I will save my money if I really want something. And if I don't have the money....I just don't buy it.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

denlie said:


> wow. Who likes to watch people suffer and go without?
> 
> I'm a single mom who makes about $1200 per month. I completely understand about living paycheck to paycheck. I desperately wanted a dog and my kids wanted a dog. But i waited until i could save the money to get the kind of puppy that we wanted.
> 
> I don't begrudge people who have more than me. I will save my money if i really want something. And if i don't have the money....i just don't buy it.


thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you!!!!!!


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Golden999 said:


> I think entitlement is awesome.  Everyone should feel entitled to lead the best life they can manage and to pursue happiness to the best of their ability as long as they aren't hurting others in so doing. No one should feel restricted by the disapproval of busybodies who like to watch people suffer and go without because it makes them feel better about themselves.  In my personal opinion.


You left the part out where you expect to do this at others' expense. I don't like to see people suffer. I like to see them succeed on their own merit and save for the things they want. It's ridiculous for a grown adult to go through life expecting others to provide whatever they want whenever they want it because they think the world owes them something.

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

AmbikaGR said:


> So I guess in this time of "NOW" no one needs to save for what they truly want. It should just be given to them. And some vet clinics will work with you some will not. It does not mean one is right and one os wrong.
> 
> *Yes one should always save for what the WANT. But one will never be fully prepared for the future. I am fortunate and thankful for what I have but I was not always able to pay for what I have. I worked and made sure I kept my commitments*
> 
> ...


*Those two paragraphs are connected in subject. I, myself always try to help someone. I have paid other's vet bills or in other ways. Yes, there are people who will take advantage of you and you need to know how to read people. A simple contract and in house financing for the deserving people can go a long way. Could probably have gone a long way for Goldy999 for example. However he seems pretty happy with his puppy so maybe in the long run it has worked for the best. 
*


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Jersey's Mom said:


> And his breeder was lucky to do so considering he or she put absolutely no effort into avoiding common genetic issues with hips, elbows, hearts or eyes (at minimum). *You sound like you honestly believe that breeders who perform clearances as a whole have dogs who are less healthy than your average Joe Schmo BYB up the street who breeds Fluffy to Bruno just because he happens to have two dogs with sex organs intact. You sound like the breeder of your first dog should have known better.* Yet I think I read in another thread that you still recommend people to that breeder because it wasn't their fault. I really don't get it. If it wasn't their fault and it wasn't bad luck... what else could it possibly be?
> 
> Julie, Jersey and Oz


 
You really heard the above in my posts? Seriously? LOL! Wow! No other comment.



Jersey's Mom said:


> I assumed nothing. I told you what I was "hearing" and told you I didn't understand (in other words, asked you to clarify). You don't need to be defensive and call it nonsense. You could have just explained.
> 
> Does Wyatt's breeder know what his parents' hips and elbows look like? How about their retinas?Does she know without a doubt that they are without a heart murmur? If the clearances weren't done, the answer is no, she does not. She knows that they run and play and have fun. So does my rescue puppy with bilateral hip dysplasia. I know he has dysplasia because* I cared enough* to run a simple X ray (which was not sent to OFA because he is an unknown mix with no intent for breeding... there would be no benefit). Similarly, so does my father's dog with retinal dysplasia. He knows she has retinal dysplasia because *he cared enough* to bring her to a board certified opthamologist for a CERF exam. I'm certain that Wyatt is a wonderful dog and truly hope that he remains healthy to a very old age, but the facts are the facts. And the fact is that no, his breeder did not know everything about her dogs. Because it wasn't important enough to her to bother finding out. That's not a breeder I would recommend to anyone, even if she did happen to produce a wonderful pup in Wyatt.
> 
> Julie, Jersey and Oz


I know what the facts are in my situation. I know what clearances Wyatt's breeder has AND doesn't have. I'm ok with that. I am afterall the one that purchased him. I was actually conscious when I made that decision. The *fact *is no breeder without a doubt can predict they will have healthy puppies regardless of clearances. That was what I have always said all along if you had read any of my posts. My Cody was a freaking example. Oh and I'm glad you and your father CARE ENOUGH for your dogs at least we all have that in common


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

AbbysMom505 said:


> That seems fairly normal...the goldens in this area go for $500 to $1,000 each. About $800 in Oregon where my Mom lives.... We were super fortunate...both of our girls were free...they were *surprise* litter.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


LOL! For some reason between all this crazy bickering that made me chuckle.


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## AbbysMom505 (Jun 16, 2012)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> LOL! For some reason between all this crazy bickering that made me chuckle.


Glad I could help! LOL yes...they were a surprise...the neighbors pure bred jumped the fence and romanced my dear friends pure bred girl...so
now we have our free pure bred surprise arrival baby girls.  


Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

AbbysMom505 said:


> Glad I could help! LOL yes...they were a surprise...the neighbors pure bred jumped the fence and romanced my dear friends pure bred girl...so
> now we have our free pure bred surprise arrival baby girls.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using PG Free


Wow 2 puppies? I commend you. I would have gone insane I must say their parents were very irresponsible


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## AbbysMom505 (Jun 16, 2012)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Wow 2 puppies? I commend you. I would have gone insane I must say their parents were very irresponsible


Oh yes...I do believe I was borderline there for a while...  Fortunately, we are getting things in order...thank you to strict daily schedules! I now have a new found respect for parents of twins! They certainly did have a very irresponsible Mommy & Daddy...but so thankful they were... 


*~* Abby & Maggie's Mom *~*


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

AbbysMom505 said:


> Oh yes...I do believe I was borderline there for a while...  Fortunately, we are getting things in order...thank you to strict daily schedules! I now have a new found respect for parents of twins! They certainly did have a very irresponsible Mommy & Daddy...but so thankful they were...
> 
> 
> *~* Abby & Maggie's Mom *~*


That's awesome! I'm a firm believer that things happen for a reason! We have both been blessed


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## AbbysMom505 (Jun 16, 2012)

I do believe you're right!  I do believe both of these rowdy fluffs of gorgeous blond hair picked us...and it was love at first sight for us! It's nice to speak with people who adore their pups as much as I do! Your pup is quite adorable I must say, btw! 


*~* Abby & Maggie's Mom *~*


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> You really heard the above in my posts? Seriously? LOL! Wow! No other comment.


 Helpful and mature. Yes, that's what it sounded like to me. Just as I said.

My first post to you was friendly. I shared a similar experience my family and I went through in losing a dog far too early despite trying to do all the right things. You responded that it wasn't bad luck it was an "unhealthy dog" (which, frankly doesn't make sense given your original question... but I won't dwell on symantics). You stated that Cody was unhealthy because that breeder produced an unhealthy dog and Wyatt is healthy because the breeder produced a healthy dog. Well, yeah... that's fairly obvious. You've yet to offer any sort of reason besides luck (bad and good, respectively) that you believe this could be attributed to. Instead you've gotten defensive and rude. You want to be angry about what happened to Cody? I understand that feeling well. But don't take it out on me.



Wyatt's mommy said:


> I know what the facts are in my situation. I know what clearances Wyatt's breeder has AND doesn't have. I'm ok with that. I am afterall the one that purchased him. I was actually conscious when I made that decision. The *fact *is no breeder without a doubt can predict they will have healthy puppies regardless of clearances. That was what I have always said all along if you had read any of my posts. My Cody was a freaking example. Oh and I'm glad you and your father CARE ENOUGH for your dogs at least we all have that in common


I never questioned your mental state when you purchased Wyatt. You stated that the breeder knew everything about her dogs. I simply pointed out that it's not an accurate statement. True, no breeder can predict with 100% reliability whether the dogs they produce will be 100% healthy. Unfortunately we have neither a full understanding of canine genetics nor a map of the canine genome. There are no genetic tests for the issues that plague our dogs. So the best someone can do is look at the phenotype (outward expression) of those genes and try their best to avoid perpetuating the problem. The worst someone can do is not be bothered with it and breed anyway. I choose to support the best and encourage others to do the same. To that end, I choose to point out the fallacy in stating that a breeder who does not do at least the minimum 4 clearances prescribed by the GRCA Code of Ethics knows "everything" about his or her dogs. I have no doubt that you care for Wyatt deeply and that you provide everything he needs and wants in life. The person who fell short was his breeder, not you.

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

Treat others with respect, there is no need for name calling or personal attacks. This thread had taken a turn from the OP but keep it civil! There is room for adult discussion.


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## pandamonium (Apr 18, 2012)

Claudia M ...

...What is an " ilk " ?...


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## CStrong73 (Jun 11, 2012)

whispered memories said:


> Claudia M ...
> 
> ...What is an " ilk " ?...


noun. 1. family, class, or kind: he and all his *ilk*


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

AbbysMom505 said:


> I do believe you're right!  I do believe both of these rowdy fluffs of gorgeous blond hair picked us...and it was love at first sight for us! It's nice to speak with people who adore their pups as much as I do! Your pup is quite adorable I must say, btw!
> 
> 
> *~* Abby & Maggie's Mom *~*


Ah thanks! I see your 2 in your avatar. Do you have any other photos of your two cuties?


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

whispered memories said:


> Claudia M ...
> 
> ...What is an " ilk " ?...


ilk... people who are like him... he and his ilk.... he and those like him or who are of like mind


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

Jersey's Mom said:


> You left the part out where you expect to do this at others' expense. I don't like to see people suffer. I like to see them succeed on their own merit and save for the things they want. It's ridiculous for a grown adult to go through life expecting others to provide whatever they want whenever they want it because they think the world owes them something.
> 
> Julie, Jersey and Oz


Wow, I've never been condemned by two golden retrievers before.  I wonder if Jersey and Oz would feel the same way in person. Most golden retrievers love me. 

Anyhow, where did I say anyone else has paid for my dog or veterinary bills? I didn't. I did say someone offered to let me borrow the money to buy the dog in the first place, and I paid them back. Never put anything on a credit card? Never taken out a mortgage on a house? If so, you're in the minority.

If there were some sort of catastrophic thing, I might need to try to work out a payment plan with a vet, or do an alternate course of treatment that's less expensive. Big deal. If you think that makes me a horrible person, feel free to throw as many virtual stones at me as you want. Easy to sit up on your high pedestal of awesomeness and heckle the peons.

Also, I'm just going to say that, in general, if you're disabled, you're not going to have enough money to get stuff done, and occasionally you might have to borrow money or cut corners in life to not be living in a tent staring at your tent ceiling wanting to die.  And, yeah, you may get your income from some program you paid into when you weren't disabled (or as disabled)- that's how things work.

And, really, same goes for people who work at McDonalds or 7-11 or whatever.

I don't think being poor is always the fault of the person being poor and that they should live their life as one long penance for not having the abilities or opportunities others get. I think they should try to carve out the best life they can for themselves and not feel guilty about it. I think people who try to judge people like us and try to make us feel guilty are pretty bad excuses for human beings, or at least people who have a blind spot in certain areas when it comes to empathy and understanding (and maybe are otherwise good folks). Not directed at anyone in particular (and I'm serious about that), it's just a generalized statement.

I love this country and our American culture, but one the flaws we have is that people seem to have this idea that money determines worth, and that people with a lack of it don't deserve to try to have, say, a pet as a companion, or get something decent for themselves once in a while. I've even had people tell me I shouldn't ever buy beer. Frack them.

I toned this down so it wouldn't as offensive as how I actually feel.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Jersey's Mom said:


> Helpful and mature. Yes, that's what it sounded like to me. Just as I said.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I'm sorry if that was not helpful, I thought it would make you go back and read what I actually posted. My apologies. However I have to say I used a considerable amount of restraint.

Thank you and I agree that we don't have a full understanding of canine genetics. So in essence* no* *breeder* knows everything about their dogs.
My bad that I said Wyatt's breeders did. That is one of my reasonings of why a well bred dog can produce an unhealthy puppy. I hope that was helpful. Bad luck is a bad poker hand.

I am not angry with what happened to Cody. I feel privileged to have him as long as I did. He is the one that has changed my views on *many* things. I am glad you are passionate about your views. I respect that. All I can do is ask the same of you.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

SheetsSM said:


> You must have one impressive vet who is qualified to take OFA quality x-rays and is a certified cardiologist and an ophthalmologist!


As a matter of fact, my VET who has taken care of all our animals since 1972 has done EVERYTHING for us. Sets up all the contacts and appointments as he deems necessary - I do not argue with him, what he tells me to do I do it. All our dogs lived to be between 14 and 16 which is pretty darn good for a Golden Retriever. Maybe that's is one reason they have been in business THIS long. 

We only bred one dog before and all the puppies were given to family members and close friends and we kept one. 

I am funky like that, I want to know how well they are taken care of. I did that last October as well when the cat we rescued brought 4 kittens at my office. We got them vaccinated, spayed and neutered and gave them in pairs to two clients with whom I am in contact. They frequently post pictures of the kitties on FB to keep me updated. If they need help with the vet bills I am there for them as long as they love the kittens and give them a good home.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

And is your vet well read when it comes to the GRCA code of ethics and for that matter, are you? I should be moving to the DC area (Virginia) next year, would love to know your vet's name as my vets have been referring me to actual specialists in each field (example going to Auburn Univ next week for a consult with a neurologist)--would be nice to have one-stop shopping & to have one that is an expert of the golden breed would be an added bonus.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

My colleagues are not nearly as discerning or critical about conformation like I am. Eight years ago, I bred a litter... One male remained unneutered despite what the contract said. Her veterinarian thought the dog was gorgeous. He was gorgeous if you think the standard allows for over sized males that look like blonde newfies. And this veterinarian bred labs! Anyway, she came to see me, wasn't interested in any kind of showing and he got neutered... Not all vets know....


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Golden999 said:


> Wow, I've never been condemned by two golden retrievers before.  I wonder if Jersey and Oz would feel the same way in person. Most golden retrievers love me.
> 
> Anyhow, where did I say anyone else has paid for my dog or veterinary bills? I didn't. I did say someone offered to let me borrow the money to buy the dog in the first place, and I paid them back. Never put anything on a credit card? Never taken out a mortgage on a house? If so, you're in the minority.


I was referring to your suggestions that reputable breeders cut their prices by 2/3 or vets charge you less for services. Perhaps you missed that part of my post? You may have also missed the post from a single mother who brings in only $200 more than you per month and has at least 1 child to support (I don't know how many children she has). Yet she managed to commit herself to taking the time and saving the money to work with a reputable breeder. No excuses. No entitlement. No demanding a price break. Just hard work and self-sacrafice. That's how most of us get the things we want in life. 

Nobody is trying to begrudge anybody anything based on income or any other standard. We are advocating for reputable breeders who maintain the health and standard of this breed we love. You chose to go another route. It was your decision to make. But don't pretend it was your only option. 

You can't expect that people who are following their passion and taking every precaution in breeding their dogs (at a loss) are going to hand you a dog just because you want one. Similarly, you can't expect someone who has student loans to deal with, a family to feed and workers to pay to give you their services for less than they are worth. You are clearly a true dog lover and committed to your pup. So are the rest of us. Most of us struggle to get by. But we understand that luxuries come at a cost and we are prepared to make the sacrifices necessary to obtain the ones we want most.



Wyatt's mommy said:


> I'm sorry if that was not helpful, I thought it would make you go back and read what I actually posted. My apologies. However I have to say I used a considerable amount of restraint.
> 
> Thank you and I agree that we don't have a full understanding of canine genetics. So in essence* no* *breeder* knows everything about their dogs.
> My bad that I said Wyatt's breeders did. That is one of my reasonings of why a well bred dog can produce an unhealthy puppy. I hope that was helpful. Bad luck is a bad poker hand.
> ...


I did read what you actually posted. And I explained to you the impression it gave me. Then I stated I didn't understand because it seemed to conflict with a very straightforward comment you made in another thread. Again, all you had to do was explain. Not be dismissive and rude.

I agree with you, no breeder knows everything about their dogs. But some know a whole heck of a lot more than others because they invest the time and money to find out. Others just assume there's no problem because they don't see one. A reputable breeder who is doing everything possible may still have the misfortune of producing an unhealthy dog... and by extension, some owner will have to suffer the misfortune of losing them too soon. But it is far more likely that the breeders who don't bother to have their dogs examined and cleared are going to perpetuate the crippling and sometimes fatal issues that so frequently crop up in golden retrievers. 

Perhaps this is a philosophical difference. Maybe your view of what constitutes "luck" is very different than mine and maybe that's why we seem to be having such a difficult time communicating here. I see luck (or lack thereof) in many aspects of life.... well beyond a hand of poker. Maybe some people call it fate or destiny or just plain old reality... but I do see the events surrounding the loss of my family's very young dog (which was in some ways similar to yours) to be a case of an "unlucky" roll of the genetic dice. Bad things happen to good people (and good dogs) all the time. But that isn't enough to convince me that stacking the odds in my favor is a waste of time or stop me from advocating for others to do the same.

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Jersey's Mom said:


> But that isn't enough to convince me that stacking the odds in my favor is a waste of time or stop me from advocating for others to do the same.
> 
> Julie, Jersey and Oz


I'm not trying to convince you or anyone anything. Advocate away.


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

Jersey's Mom said:


> I was referring to your suggestions that reputable breeders cut their prices by 2/3


I think my suggestion was actually more along the lines of that the expensive breeders should *either* stop complaining about breeders who offer more affordable puppies so that lower income folks can experience the joy of having golden retrievers who otherwise might not exist *or* lower the cost of their own puppies. That was the context. You're free to sell your puppies for a million dollars each if you want, but it's unseemly to to then complain about breeders who allow less well off people to have the dog companions they dream off at prices they can afford.

You want to sell the "luxury" model, fine, but of course there is going to a a market for the "regular" model, too, because not everyone can afford top of the line everything (or anything). And, you know what? I love my dog. I'm not sure I'd have been happier had I gotten a dog from a breeder who was all about pedigree and agility and all that jazz, even had the prices been in my ball park. But you can't say I didn't give your kind a shot- I came to folks like you first, and then I went to folks who would actually sell me a dog. 



> or vets charge you less for services.


Again, you missed the context of that comment as well. I was talking about a case I read about where someone came to a vet with a dog who had a growth. The vet gave that person only two options- have the growth removed and tested for $1,000, or pay the vet a lesser fee to euthanize (aka kill) their beloved pet. What I said is that the vet should have worked a little harder to figure out a good solution for the dog and his human- like the other vet the person wound up going to who was willing to remove the growth without testing (Thus lowering the cost by cutting out some elements of the procedure). I listed a few other possibilities like a payment plan where the owner could have paid maybe $100 a month for 10 months or whatever. Then I said *or* offer a straight out discount. I didn't just say offer a discount period. I think vets who just offer the most expensive possible procedure or offer to kill a dog with no in between are not really looking out for the best interests of their dogs or their clients, and in general are just jerks and should find another field. Just my opinion.



> You may have also missed the post from a single mother who brings in only $200 more than you per month and has at least 1 child to support (I don't know how many children she has). Yet she managed to commit herself to taking the time and saving the money to work with a reputable breeder. No excuses. No entitlement. No demanding a price break. Just hard work and self-sacrafice. That's how most of us get the things we want in life.


*Yawn*. So self-righteous. Not everyone lives life according to your puritan ethic or meets with your rigorous standards. That doesn't mean we're bad people or bad pet owners. You might be happier if you learned to embrace diversity and stopped trying to force everyone to meet your arbitrary and exacting standards.



> Nobody is trying to begrudge anybody anything based on income or any other standard.


Really? I've had people here flat out tell me I shouldn't own a dog. Maybe not in this thread, but over the years.



> We are advocating for reputable breeders who maintain the health and standard of this breed we love. You chose to go another route. It was your decision to make.


Alright, but if you are following that logic to it's conclusion, than you must support people's right to breed their dogs that way my breeder did it, right? Because it's all well and good to say I had a choice to go another route, but I get the feeling some here would like to make that route illegal or otherwise close it by putting those type of breeders out of business and shrugging their shoulders at people like me and go "Too bad, so sad. Dogs are luxury items. Excuse me while I have another bite of caviar.".


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

To all those still posting to this thread. I believe that the points being discussed on both sides have been thoroughly perhaps exhaustively stated. I wrote earlier, there is no winner here. There are passionate folks on both sides and as the thread grows both sides dig in. I guessed this would become a "30 page thread of reputable breeders being portrayed as money grubbers who only want rich folks to own dogs and pet owners who will be emotionally invested because any point discussed is a personal attack on their dog, economic status, or decisions".
Guess what? Two days later we are already over half way there. Who is getting any satisfaction out of this? 
The only observation I have to offer is that any time this thread seems to come back to a semblance of normalcy, Golden999 pops back in to add about a half of page of comments back to several posters at a time. His original post is how this thread went from a request for help to the reputable vs. back yard breeder battle ground it is.
I am hoping he either stops posting since he is clearly on a repeat loop now or that if his intent is to garner a captive audiance we will stop feeding into whatever need is driving him.
I also know my post will most likely be quoted next for his response. I am telling you now Golden999 I think you are probably a great owner. I don't know you so, how can I say for sure. I am glad you have something in your life that brings you joy. Please go enjoy it, leave this posting to die as it should. You will never win this battle because no one can live your life for you and you can not live anyone elses. Agree to disagree so you can get back to quality time with your dog. 

Just so you know, since I do believe you are purposely stiring the pot, I will not reply to you no matter what you say about this post.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

LJack said:


> To all those still posting to this thread. I believe that the points being discussed on both sides have been thoroughly perhaps exhaustively stated. I wrote earlier, there is no winner here. There are passionate folks on both sides and as the thread grows both sides dig in. I guessed this would become a "30 page thread of reputable breeders being portrayed as money grubbers who only want rich folks to own dogs and pet owners who will be emotionally invested because any point discussed is a personal attack on their dog, economic status, or decisions".
> Guess what? Two days later we are already over half way there. Who is getting any satisfaction out of this?
> The only observation I have to offer is that any time this thread seems to come back to a semblance of normalcy, Golden999 pops back in to add about a half of page of comments back to several posters at a time. His original post is how this thread went from a request for help to the reputable vs. back yard breeder battle ground it is.
> I am hoping he either stops posting since he is clearly on a repeat loop now or that if his intent is to garner a captive audiance we will stop feeding into whatever need is driving him.
> ...


Sorry but you already replied


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

To Wyatt's Mom I will of course post back to you. Even though we don't agree on several things I know you always have the dogs at heart. If i could figure out how to make the smileys you would see one here. 
Thank you for pointing out my grammatical error. I did mean "this post". English comp was never my strong suit. Fortunately Jinx does not mind!


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## Rob's GRs (Feb 25, 2007)

We are putting this thread to rest. No need for more heated breeder variety conflicts here.


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