# Ok trainers I need some help.



## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

We have been training for decades so not a newbie. My current girl is 15 months and I started working with her on day 1. I could give a list of exercises mastered but have been stumped on getting her to heel so just kept training other stuff. She's ready to start on articles.

I finally realized why she is having so much trouble keeping focus on heel. She can't walk with her head up! It's not about the treat or toy, mentally she has to glance down with each and every step. She's trying, which is a big improvement... even if she holds her head up I can see her eyes glancing down each time she takes a step. I can't get 2 consecutive steps without a downward glance. 

Focus is great if she doesn't have to walk.. but that has been a great deal of work. So, other than continuing to walk backwards with a food bowl on my head, a clicker in my hand and taking one step at a time. Is there a better way?? 

Because I was getting such a good focus on everything else and finally getting effort I thought we had passed this problem. It wasn't until today that I realized she just can't take a step without looking to the ground. 

We had her eyes tested yesterday and she does have retinal dysplasia in one eye, could this be a factor? I haven't researched this yet so not sure if or how this may distort her vision.

Has anyone else ever dealt with this problem?


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## usually lurking (Apr 21, 2017)

Gosh, that is a new one, for sure. Which eye is it? If it's her left, I'd be curious if she looks down when she's on your right. Otherwise, it sounds like a confidence issue. Are there exercises that you'd do with a completely blind dog to help them learn to trust that you aren't going to let them walk into anything? I haven't ever researched that. Alternatively, what if you deliberately set out obstacles and teach her a word that would give her indication that she needs to watch out/stop because something is in her path. Maybe she'd figure out that if there IS something to worry about, you'll let her know?

(I'm not a trainer, but, intuitively, those things would make sense to me.)


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Oh my... should have done my research before asking. This diagnosis explains so many things about my pup. Basically my poor girl can't see the ground with her head up. It explains why she didn't make eye contact when she was a puppy, why she struggled with so many things this last year. 
The breeder offered a full refund and even offered to make the 12 hr drive to come fetch her. As much as I want a working dog & to compete I can't send her back. 

When I stop crying we will have to find another plan and be grateful for the answers I've been praying for. My poor baby, she has been trying so hard. At least now I understand.


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## usually lurking (Apr 21, 2017)

I'm so sorry to hear that. It certainly sounds like she tries her best for you. You have a brave pup!


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

One of the 'life lessons' our dogs come to teach us is to accept them, love them for 'who they are'. Their 'limitations' may not lead us down the path we intended to go, but they do take us on an unforgettable journey of discovery.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

I'm sorry for the diagnosis. I'm glad you are committed to your girl. However she can still be awesome at obedience. As long as she is with you on the heel, not having her head up won't cost you points. My girl doesn't have her head up the whole time but her focus is still 100% there. My obedience instructor said sometimes it is a structural thing -- that some dogs just have really straight fronts so it's easier for them to keep their head up. But, that is not correct golden structure.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

To answer your question, I don't.... think... it would cause a problem. 

Our rough collie had an injury to his eye which occurred at the home of the foster (he got attacked by one of the other dogs) we adopted him from. This basically means his one eye is "deeper" and slightly smaller than the other eye + there is scar tissue on the eye. 

This dog can do heads up heeling very nicely. He actually would have been a wonderful obedience dog.... 

Except we saw some behaviors around other dogs which would have made it difficult to show him at a trial. Primarily inability to work when other dogs were around - not aggression, just control freak temperament. And like most collies as well, he was and still is a barker. 

We decided to skip on obedience and let him focus on stuff he wanted to do. Which was protect his little girl (my niece), herd the golden retrievers, and idolize my mom. 

Bottom line though, is as long as your dog is not blind - you shouldn't have a problem doing obedience. I believe, blind dogs are not permitted to compete...

Heads up heeling - you have to be patient and consistent. 

A lot of trainers are constantly reinforcing position. There is never a point when the dog is "trained" and you never have to work on heeling ever again. A lot of the best trainers I know of do work heeling every day and do all kinds of crazy stuff to build up drive. 

For my next pup... these are the three steps... 

Step 1 = targeting the position for heeling, including head position and focus (the left hand is locked at a point where you want the dog's head to be - this is the target for the dog and it even does start from a stationary position, a lot of people work focus like this - and load a "cue" word that they can take into the ring... ie dog's name + "READY")...

Step 2 = building that position and rewarding (at first you are just working on 1-5 steps, not doing all kinds of crazy heeling, this gets reinforced and built on over time... but I'll say this much, my Jacks and I did 6 weeks of classes with an OTCH trainer way back... and we literally only worked 1-5 steps of heeling with heads up focus for 6 straight weeks)....

Step 3 = weaning off constant rewards and switching to a jackpot or "lucky dog" type reward and "do it to get it" type mentality 

The heads up heeling isn't natural for all dogs*. But it is preferred to eliminate many of the distractions that the dog may experience in the obedience ring. And besides it is helpful for getting precise and clean teamwork from your dog for pace changes and halts. 

A dog whose head is down is going to be fine, but may be more prone to lagging/forging at different points + missing halts and getting caught looking blankly up at the trainer. These are all reasons why people lose points left and right while in the ring.

*But all dogs can be taught to do heads up heeling.... one of the best heeling non-obedience breed dogs I've seen (LOL) was a little pug who could and did do heads up heeling.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

I realize the head up isn't the end of the world but it changes my perception completely. 

usually lurking the answer is yes.. when I had her walking towards me is when I realized the problem. She has a very hard time moving by my side and realize now her positioning is so she can see me... which of course is no where near heel position. I think if she gets too close she looses sight of me. I'm also not sure how good her distance vision is... she knows hand signals but haven't done them from the proper distance so not sure.

She will front, has a good return and sits perfectly in heel position with perfect focus... it's only when we are moving that she goes about a foot in front of me and a couple of feet out.. with her hind end flaring out as well. Because Novice is mostly healing I'm not sure we can get through. Even when we did the pivot training, she does great until I stand beside her and she steps away. Now I know why. I've been working on position for the last 12 months, it's time to let it go. 

Yes life has had a few surprises. I had been in my home for 35 yrs and sold the house and business to retire and be closer to a well known trainer... only to loose my obedience dog 3 months after relocating. Now this... I need to get the message and find another venue 

Maybe because I've done rescue for decades or maybe because I have several special needs grand kids... you just have to do the best you can with what God gives you. 

I can't return her because she has a small vision problem. I enjoy being with her, she has a wonderful personality and spirit about her. To me this is more important than competition. We just need to find her a new vocation.

While the diagnosis sucks the good news is it doesn't get worse. Thanks everyone for the support, it was very much needed today.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

But you don't have to give it up. 

Dogs don't use their eyes to walk. 

You will have problems with jumping possibly. Your might not have confidence in jumping. But shouldn't have any with heeling. 

I'm finding it difficult to believe that your dog will have problems heeling heads up or down with impaired vision in one eye. 

Dogs with cataracts do just fine. 

The dog I mentioned with the injured and scarred eye does just fine. This is a dog who will go for walks around the block with his head up and watching you the entire time. 

Depth perception (going down stairs) + entering dark rooms will cause problems. Entering buildings from outside, might cause problems.

Seeing people at a distance - will cause problems.

Hand signals might be problematic, possibly. It really depends on your dog. If both eyes are NOT involved, you should be fine. 

A dog with an issue with one eye is not blind.

***Dogs move out or sit out away when the trainer uses food in the mouth and puts too much focus on the face for heads up heeling. That is why a lot of us use targets at the hip and train the dogs to look up from that position.

Our collie was trained differently by his prior owners and had to be retaught everything. With sits, he would always step out away and sit facing us - probably because his owners never had a focus on an auto sit during heeling. They likely lured the sit with treats as well. 

If you have access to a good trainer, you might want to get into privates with this person - or look for another trainer who does privates. And you can work specifically on the things you need to work on. It wastes less time. 

I would not immediately jump to the conclusion that your dog is having issues heeling because of one eye being off. I would just go back to basics and reshape heeling position and build from there.


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## usually lurking (Apr 21, 2017)

Megora said:


> But you don't have to give it up. I would not immediately jump to the conclusion that your dog is having issues heeling because of one eye being off. I would just go back to basics and reshape heeling position and build from there.


Agree with the above. Even if the underlying problem with heeling is vision, you might just have to get creative in teaching. It seems like you've put so much time in already, it might be worth trying a few other things before you give up, especially now that you know what you have to work around.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

I agree with you both, it shouldn't be a problem but it is. She is good on retrieves, still have jumps low but doesn't seem to have a problem there either. She has no preference between solid jump and the bar and pretty good at the direction part. She has a great go out but the complete exercise is still a work in progress.
I did make changes with teaching the heel position while we walk and not sure what she sees but something causes her to put distance between us to allow her to look over at me. As soon as she steps away her whole body language changes, tail goes up, ears perk up and she has a wonderful happy gate.
She can move in either direction during pivot training but as soon as I move in to stand beside her she either moves away so she can see me or sits down. Something about moving next to me is very uncomfortable for her.
Maybe if I focus more on getting her to walk it will help her know that it's ok to watch where she is going. This is the only thing she is consistently having trouble with.
Thanks guys!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Do a private with somebody who knows their stuff - having another set of eyes will help a ton. 

Most of the dogs moving out and away to look up - these are more "little dog" issues where they are trying to look at the owner's face. I have seen goldens with this issue - although it's more along the line of dogs sitting in heel position but angling their upper body out. 

You can stick the leash around behind your back to keep her close and work the target hand and do frequent rewards/praise when you get her moving a few steps in correct heel position. 

There might also be other things going on (training issues) which another set of eyes should be able to spot. If you are stepping into her path unconsciously - that might push her off. 

I would look to do a few privates with somebody who is really good (competition trainer, OTCH level, etc).


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

I think you can "fix" the heeling. Can she take one step with you while staying in heel? Two steps? If she can, maybe it's time to reward that without the criteria of her looking at you while she is doing it. Perhaps she was trying too hard to stay focused on you, so is flaring and forging? Take that requirement away, and see what happens.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Thanks Vhuynh2, that's what I started doing today. I am guilty of trying to get eye contact when we walk and need to remove that part, I didn't realize there was an eye issue until yesterday. At least getting this diagnosis explains why this has been such a struggle. I have to approach this more as learning her limitations and working around them. She is trying to do a work around and I just thought she was being stubborn :-(

While the suggestion is really good to call in a trainer that isn't an option. I have OTCH trainers to call for advice but no resources available for trainer visits.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Have you tried heeling against a wall? That would help encourage her to stay in position. I would also practice pivots on a platform if you haven't already. When she realizes she must stay on the platform when pivoting, it might help for when you move in next to her.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> While the suggestion is really good to call in a trainer that isn't an option. I have OTCH trainers to call for advice but no resources available for trainer visits.


Privates would be done at their place.


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## LittleRedDawg (Oct 5, 2011)

Megora's advice is really good...

To add to that, I have a one-eyed dog due to an accident and she has lovely heads-up one-eye contact intense focus. There's a gal with multiple OTCH MACH dogs in Colorado who has a 13 year old with one eye - who still competes and has heads-up heeling.

I'd suspect...you're making excuses for your dog. Go to a good trainer's place (I don't know any decent trainers that do house visits...) and take some lessons. Most of the time, dogs who don't do the work are that way because no one taught them how, not because it is physically/mentally impossible.


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## FosterGolden (Mar 10, 2014)

There are a few hearing and sight impaired dogs doing really well with the Fenzi group, if you want to try to go that route. They do great stuff for impaired dogs (and even handlers), including very fragile dogs, and really work with you to think things through and come up with a plan based on special needs.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Heeling next to wall is something I haven't tried but sounds like a great approach and will certainly give this a try. She is great on the platform training until I move next to her. It's like when I have to move the menu to see it clearly, she moves in order to see me clearly. I realize now that the "look at me" approach needs to be omitted and help her to find heel position and be help her to comfortable walking there.

Taking classes and going to a trainer are both excellent ideas and would love to have that option. I made a video of the behavior and sent to a couple of OTCH trainers for guidance. The nearest training facility is almost 5 hrs. away so classes are not an option.

*"Most of the time, dogs who don't do the work are that way because no one taught them how, not because it is physically/mentally impossible."*

This is a very accurate statement and true in most cases. When I made this cry for help post I was very frustrated that with 40 yrs experience in dog training I failed to get acceptable results on a simple exercise that I have taught hundreds of times.

Things have changed since making this post. Sat. we had an eye exam and it totally changed my perspective of the situation. Sips is not blind, she has a condition that distorts her vision and she must learn to adapt. Whatever she is seeing is more than she can understand or cope with at such a young age but it's not for a lack of effort from either of us. She has made major improvements from where she started and now that I realize the problem I can take a different approach to her training.

Making an excuse, maybe... Anytime you don't get results it is on the trainer not the dog.

I received some pretty devastating news this weekend on her condition and really appreciate the support. I was ready to find another venue so thanks for the encouragement.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

Puddles everywhere,

I read your post all the time. I love how you are always there to give solid information and also reach out with compassion to others when needed. I am so sorry that your baby is dealing with this. It is understandable at the time you are given this information that you would feel crushed, devastated and frustrated. I am glad to read that you are moving past the paralysis upon hearing the news. You are a fighter, someone that doesn't give up. Your young dog loves working with you. She may have limitations but you can find ways to make adjustments so that you both can continue on your journey. You both can do this. Finding a way to have fun while training around her limitations will be fun and challenging. It isn't over it is a new beginning armed with more information. Go Team Sipsy!


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

solinvictus you have no idea how much I needed to hear this! Thank you soooo much. Bless you for your support.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Dogs do not have to heel heads up  They can heel with their head in any position as long as the area between their nose and the neck are in line with your hip. 

Most dogs do heel with their head up but that is merely style and if your girl can heel and maintain position (without distress from not seeing clearly) with her head in a neutral or even downward position - and she enjoys heeling - let it be. You should not lose any points and actually it is a more natural position.

I tend to let all my dogs choose their head positions, and I have trained many dogs with several at UD levels


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## George_M (May 25, 2017)

It sounds like she tries as possible as she can, to be the best for you........


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