# Why do exhibitors string up their dogs in those pix?



## Pointgold

Where is your first judging assignment? (I wouldn't enter, but I _sure _would want to watch...)


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## paula bedard

Hi Monomer, glad you're around again, I missed reading your posts.
I'm laughing at Laura's comment. I'd kinda like to see that too.


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## Pointgold

For now, anyway, I'm going to stick to showing to judges who've actually been to a dog show.


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## monomer

Pointgold said:


> Where is your first judging assignment? (I wouldn't enter, but I _sure _would want to watch...)


Down at the Shaggy Pines dog park every Saturday afternoon... I'm judging the all-breed class... and I do mean *ALL* breeds.


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## monomer

Pointgold said:


> For now, anyway, I'm going to stick to showing to judges who've actually been to a dog show.


 If you count the Eukanuba dog show on Aminal Planet then I've been to lotsa dog shows... from the comfort of my own couch.


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## Lucky's mom

I always assume the collar positioned like that is the ideal position for handler control.

Well...that is where I put Lucky's choke chain when I noticed a squirrel headed our way...


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## monomer

paula bedard said:


> Hi Monomer, glad you're around again, I missed reading your posts.
> I'm laughing at Laura's comment. I'd kinda like to see that too.


Yeah essentially things are finally winding down... its exam week here. After this week I will be basically unemployed for the whole summer... but this is a good kind of unemployed... with PAY!! Whoopie!!! who says you can't stay in school forever? I living proof one can!!!


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## Emma&Tilly

Ive often wondered about the different styles of showing and have thought that sometimes dogs do look quite 'strung up' in other countries...can anybody explain the benefit? You don't seem to see that over here...show dogs in the US always looks so **** serious in their photos!

Here is a pic of Ch. Creekwood Zeke by Gold-Rush, now to the untrained eye that position does not look comfortable or very pleasing to look at...Im sure the dog is used to it and doesn't really hurt but it just does not look very nice to me.

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That is opposed to the style of showing over here which looks much more natural and to be honest the dog looks much happier! I would rather see that any day!! (this is a picture of Sh Ch Flyngalee Northern Lights JW ShCM)


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## Golden Leo

I was thinking the same thing, please no hard feelings but from the first time I saw "american way" handling in GR I asked myself- why are they strangling the dogs?! But I guess I'm just used to another way and you are used to this way.... It works for both perfectly so no problem


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## Pointgold

monomer said:


> If you count the Eukanuba dog show on Aminal Planet then I've been to lotsa dog shows... from the comfort of my own couch.


 









"I don't need no stinkin' (judge's) badge!"


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## Pointgold

Photos do not accurately portray what is going on. The dogs are not "strung up" or "choking to death. The collar is placed where it is to prevent the dog from appearing throaty, from charging forward after the tossed toy which most photogs use to get the dog up on his toes and looking attentive, and also keeps the collar and lead pretty much out of the photo.


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## Pointgold

monomer said:


> Down at the Shaggy Pines dog park every Saturday afternoon... I'm judging the all-breed class... and I do mean *ALL* breeds.


Wow. Very impressive! It takes most judges _years _to learn all the standards and to be licensed for all breeds.


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## Pointgold

Emma&Tilly said:


> Ive often wondered about the different styles of showing and have thought that sometimes dogs do look quite 'strung up' in other countries...can anybody explain the benefit? You don't seem to see that over here...show dogs in the US always looks so **** serious in their photos!
> 
> Here is a pic of Ch. Creekwood Zeke by Gold-Rush, now to the untrained eye that position does not look comfortable or very pleasing to look at...Im sure the dog is used to it and doesn't really hurt but it just does not look very nice to me.
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> That is opposed to the style of showing over here which looks much more natural and to be honest the dog looks much happier! I would rather see that any day!! (this is a picture of Sh Ch Flyngalee Northern Lights JW ShCM)


 
I happen to appreciate both styles. I think that the dog in the top photo looks _very _happy - alert and animated, and while the European dog is truly lovely, he looks about to nap. 

It is definately cultural, and purely a matter of preference.


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## Emma&Tilly

Pointgold said:


> Photos do not accurately portray what is going on. The dogs are not "strung up" or "choking to death. The collar is placed where it is to prevent the dog from appearing throaty, from charging forward after the tossed toy which most photogs use to get the dog up on his toes and looking attentive, and also keeps the collar and lead pretty much out of the photo.


I do see how it gives the dog a completely different shape at the front (compared to the UK pic) its almost like an 's' shape with the dogs head up and back like that. Maybe they should do away with throwing a toy so the dog isn't tempted to lunge...clearly a dog cannot stand like that themselves so is a bit of a odd way to present a dog to me...


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## Pointgold

Emma&Tilly said:


> I do see how it gives the dog a completely different shape at the front (compared to the UK pic) its almost like an 's' shape with the dogs head up and back like that. Maybe they should do away with throwing a toy so the dog isn't tempted to lunge...clearly a dog cannot stand like that themselves so is a bit of a odd way to present a dog to me...


Dogs can and do stand like that on their own, as when free stacked.

The top photo is also taken at an angle, where the bottom one is full profile, so you are not seeing the actual position of the dog.


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## Emma&Tilly

Pointgold said:


> while the European dog is truly lovely, he looks about to nap.


nap? lol! He is just stood...in a very natural stance with a smile on his face! Must be a matter of interpretation but the word 'happy' really does not spring to my mind when looking at the gold rush dog...infact it almost looks like a frown on his face, I'll give you 'alert' but in a ever so slightly forced way!


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## Tanyac

Wow, I'm amazed how different two dogs of the same breed can look! To see examples of both next to each other like that... I've been studying them both back and forth for ages!!! I know that different 'styles' of trimming produce a different effect, but bone structure and angles are different too...


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## Pointgold

Emma&Tilly said:


> nap? lol! He is just stood...in a very natural stance with a smile on his face! Must be a matter of interpretation but the word 'happy' really does not spring to my mind when looking at the gold rush dog...infact it almost looks like a frown on his face, I'll give you 'alert' but in a ever so slightly forced way!


 

We'll agree to disagree. Very different dogs, very different presentations. Shows in Europe are much more casual than in the US - here we dress up more, and presentation is more stylized, for lack of a better word. As I have said, I appreciate both styles.


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## arcane

Emma&Tilly said:


> ..clearly a dog cannot stand like that themselves so is a bit of a odd way to present a dog to me...


I have seen this in my own back yard many many times! When the dogs catch sight of my cat out in the pasture hunting!!!!!!! Granted it is NEVER when I have the blasted camera in hand!!!!!: As for the UK dogs, my beef is the dang lead left hanging over their shoulders, just remove it, thank you very much!!!!!!! It is distracting!!!!!


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## Pointgold

tanyac said:


> Wow, I'm amazed how different two dogs of the same breed can look! To see examples of both next to each other like that... I've been studying them both back and forth for ages!!! I know that different 'styles' of trimming produce a different effect, but bone structure and angles are different too...


 
The dog shown as an example of a US dog is not necessarily representative of all US dogs. Looking at K9 Data at images linked to pedigrees will show that there are many different variations of handling styles - some more moderate or extreme than others. So the GoldRush dog in the above photo is not going to be the style of dog here.


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## Jo Ellen

I like the 2nd photograph best, myself. Both dogs are beautiful but the second dog looks happier, more natural and less staged or pretentious. Kind of like he/she's interacting with the people around and not just there for being viewed or photographed.


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo

Summer salary, eh? I don't know why they "string" up the doggies!


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## Loboto-Me

I only read the first page so far but decided to comment on Emma and Tilly's picture.

I happen to like the look of that first golden in the show picture. To me it looks "regal", and yes formal as well. I liken the pose to be like when, let's say a ballerina or a royal personage gets their photo shoots for a portrait.

The other pose is nice as well, but just not formal.


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## Emma&Tilly

Loboto-Me said:


> I only read the first page so far but decided to comment on Emma and Tilly's picture.
> 
> I happen to like the look of that first golden in the show picture. To me it looks "regal", and yes formal as well. I liken the pose to be like when, let's say a ballerina or a royal personage gets their photo shoots for a portrait.
> 
> The other pose is nice as well, but just not formal.


Yeah, I agree, it definitely looks a more formal pose...and if shows in the US are a lot more formal in other areas I can see why that style would be appreciated...I like the fact that in the UK most show dogs are owner handled and having a professional handler would be unusual (I think.) Ive read before that in the US dogs are sent off travelling around with a handler for months on end to gain points, which to me sounds very odd to send your own dog off with someone else! I guess logistics have a lot to do with it, I suppose travelling to different shows is a huge undertaking in such a large country! I think owners here show more for the enjoyment of spending time with and handling their dog and wouldn't find much fun or glory in having your dog in the ring with someone else. It's sad that you may be at a slight disadvantage if want to show your own dog if you have little experience, must be quite a daunting prospect amongst the pros! I'd love to attend a US show just to understand the difference in atmosphere...the shows I have been to here (as a spectator) seem very friendly and fun...


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## Emma&Tilly

Pointgold said:


> The dog shown as an example of a US dog is not necessarily representative of all US dogs. Looking at K9 Data at images linked to pedigrees will show that there are many different variations of handling styles - some more moderate or extreme than others. So the GoldRush dog in the above photo is not going to be the style of dog here.


It would be interesting to view some of the different styles..I just chose goldrush as I knew it was quite a big name in goldens in the US. Would that be considered quite an extreme handling style then? I must say the dog in your avatar pic looks lovely free stacked and looks very natural to me...alert without the look of it being forced. 

I do realise that when a golden is free stacked in the field (when they have their eye on something interesting) they do look alert and very regal, I just don't think it is natural for a golden to stand with their head so far up and back like that...and its more the obvious force lifting the head up (tight under the chin) that looks un-natural and uncomfortable to me.


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## Pointgold

Emma&Tilly said:


> It would be interesting to view some of the different styles..I just chose goldrush as I knew it was quite a big name in goldens in the US. Would that be considered quite an extreme handling style then? I must say the dog in your avatar pic looks lovely free stacked and looks very natural to me...alert without the look of it being forced.
> 
> I do realise that when a golden is free stacked in the field (when they have their eye on something interesting) they do look alert and very regal, I just don't think it is natural for a golden to stand with their head so far up and back like that...and its more the obvious force lifting the head up (tight under the chin) that looks un-natural and uncomfortable to me.


 
But there truly is no "force" lifting the head up - our dogs do it all the time when running in the field if something catches their eye, and they obviously are not uncomfortable doing it. 
As for our shows, breeder/owners, and owner handlers, do very well against the pros, particularly in the classes. At the breed and group levels you will see more pros, and this is where some owners will send their dogs out. As for appearance, you would be hard pressed to be able to tell who is pro and who is not (with the exceptions of a few very green novices who have not had any help or training.)


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## peeps

I like the top shot better as well - part of that would also be grooming I find the bototm picture looks a bit unkept. The staging or posing for pictures isn't any different between the two photos just two different styles of dogs - personally I found the bottom dog very drab and lifeless looking in comparison to the top. I am also a big fan of ears and dodn't like the hanging ones on the bottom. Interesting though- the two completely different styles of grooming and stacking.

PS - if you look at the pic of Dancer in my signature - when I took that shot she was looking at a squeeky I htrew and no one was touching her.


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## Emma&Tilly

Pointgold said:


> But there truly is no "force" lifting the head up - our dogs do it all the time when running in the field if something catches their eye, and they obviously are not uncomfortable doing it.


My point is that it _is_ being forced in that particular show picture...if that handler was not stood holding the head up for that picture the dog would not be in that position naturally...there is an upwards pressure under that dogs chin, there must be else there would be no need for the handler to have the lead held up there. Im not saying the dog is in pain, it just does not look pleasing to me. If a dog is watching something in the field and he holds his head up high then that _is_ natural for the mere fact that he is doing it himself! (although I do argue that it wouldn't ever be quite as high and far back as it is in the picture.) With the UK pic the dog is clearly standing how he likes in that given environment as there is no lead pulling anywhere....to me that would be a preferable position for a dog to be in...just stood!


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## Tanyac

I can't actually tell, is that a dog or bitch in the first picture?? If its a dog then he's got quite a small head. Or maybe I'm just used to the more 'blocky' head of the UK Goldens??


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## Emma&Tilly

peeps said:


> I personally I found the bottom dog very drab and lifeless looking in comparison to the top.


Bit harsh...I definitely do not see a lifeless dog, his face looks just like a happy golden to me...I've seen that dog a couple of times at shows and he is really lovely. He has 8CC's, not bad for a drab looking dog!


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## Pudden

Emma&Tilly said:


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I laughed at reading the OP - you summed up what I think about those show pictures, too.

This dog looks strangled and forced. Just look at his facial expression: like he's saying, "get it over with, Mom, so I can move again". He's a gorgeous creature, but I much would prefer to see him in a natural stance.


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## peeps

*"Bit harsh"* it wasn't meant to be harsh just an opinion - like strangled, forced and unnatural are all opinions. I don't find that he has any sparkle to him - he just looks like he is standing there wondering what's going on... don't get me wrong there are many gorgeous english style goldens out there I just prefer them to be stacked and groomed a little more like the westerner's do it


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## Emma&Tilly

peeps said:


> just an opinion - like strangled, forced and unnatural are all opinions.


But all completely and totally due to the handler! The dog is without question a beautiful, beautiful animal and would be in any pose! My opinion of your (very valid) opinion is that it sounded a bit harsh to the dog instead of the style of handling....as you commented that the pose and staging are the same for both dogs I assumed you meant the dog was just a drab looking dog.


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## peeps

Emma&Tilly said:


> But all completely and totally due to the handler! The dog is without question a beautiful, beautiful animal and would be in any pose! My opinion of your (very valid) opinion is that it sounded a bit harsh to the dog instead of the style of handling....as you commented that the pose and staging are the same for both dogs I assumed you meant the dog was just a drab looking dog.


No just a show stack for both dogs. But I believe that the second dog would look a little more alert etc in a more upright pose. I don't think that show stacks are meant to be the all the time natural pose of a dog but a pretty outline. I find both of these dogs to be very attractively posed and both look a little more alert.


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## Pointgold

Emma&Tilly said:


> My point is that it _is_ being forced in that particular show picture...if that handler was not stood holding the head up for that picture the dog would not be in that position naturally...there is an upwards pressure under that dogs chin, there must be else there would be no need for the handler to have the lead held up there. Im not saying the dog is in pain, it just does not look pleasing to me. If a dog is watching something in the field and he holds his head up high then that _is_ natural for the mere fact that he is doing it himself! (although I do argue that it wouldn't ever be quite as high and far back as it is in the picture.) With the UK pic the dog is clearly standing how he likes in that given environment as there is no lead pulling anywhere....to me that would be a preferable position for a dog to be in...just stood!


You cannot tell from a photo that the head is being "forced" up, and I will tell you that I have many show photos where my dog's heads are exactly like that and I was _not _lifting/forcing them at all. The collar is positioned under the jaw, at the throat, and simply held by where the rings meet, along with the lead. No force, no "lift", no pressure.
As for the UK dog, I don't think he looks "drab", but he's definately not as animated looking as we like our US dogs (and Canadian, too) to look. Neither one is "right" or "wrong", but simply the style preferred for their country.


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## Jo Ellen

The second dog looks happier, he/she's relaxing their mouth ... I take that to indicate a more natural stance.


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## FranH

After being in the show ring many times, would the first dog make that stance naturally because it's been trained to do so?


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## paula bedard

monomer said:


> Yeah essentially things are finally winding down... its exam week here. After this week I will be basically unemployed for the whole summer... but this is a good kind of unemployed... with PAY!! Whoopie!!! who says you can't stay in school forever? I living proof one can!!!


Well, I hope this means you'll be hanging around a bit more. My son was a teacher up until this year. He always took the 9 month payment plan and worked a summer job. His last summer job stole him away from teaching. Now I can't brag 'My Son's A Teacher!' I miss that. 

Looks like you've started a lively topic.

I just saw Fran's post. I would think that they would 'assume to position' automatically too. I think that each pose looks good, though different.


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## Lucky's mom

arcane said:


> I have seen this in my own back yard many many times! When the dogs catch sight of my cat out in the pasture hunting!!!!!!! Granted it is NEVER when I have the blasted camera in hand!!!!!: As for the UK dogs, my beef is the dang lead left hanging over their shoulders, just remove it, thank you very much!!!!!!! It is distracting!!!!!


 
Hey, that is what I was thinking. Lucky ain't no show dog, but when he's prancing and excited he has the American Presentation look. (I love that look...makes me think he's a happy dog).


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## peeps

I have a question about the second dog's grooming - why would they spend the time straightening and trimming his tail but not groom the rest of him to that degree?


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## Loboto-Me

I'm a little confused because in Canada, it seems we should be doing little to the coats of our show dogs as well.

This taken from CKC Breed Standard:


*Coat and Colour:
Dense and water repellent with good undercoat. Texture not as hard as that of a short-haired dog nor silky as that of a setter. Lies flat against body and may be straight or wavy. Moderate feathering on back of forelegs and heavier feathering on front of neck, back of thighs and underside of tail. Feathering may be lighter than rest of coat. Excessive length, open coats or limp, soft coats are undesirable.* *The natural appearance of coat or outline should not be altered by cutting or clipping, other than the trimming of the feet and neatening of stray hairs.* *Colour lustrous golden of various shades. A few white hairs on chest permissible but not desirable. Further white markings to be faulted except for greying or whitening of the face or body due to age. Any noticeable area of black or other off-colour hair is to be faulted*

Would that mean blowdrying and other things such as product is frowned upon in Canadian shows as that would fluff up a dog and give the illusion of more or less of a trait?


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## Pointgold

FranH said:


> After being in the show ring many times, would the first dog make that stance naturally because it's been trained to do so?


How many times do you think Tommy had been in the ring when I took this picture?


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## Pointgold

Loboto-Me said:


> I'm a little confused because in Canada, it seems we should be doing little to the coats of our show dogs as well.
> 
> This taken from CKC Breed Standard:
> 
> 
> *Coat and Colour:*
> *Dense and water repellent with good undercoat. Texture not as hard as that of a short-haired dog nor silky as that of a setter. Lies flat against body and may be straight or wavy. Moderate feathering on back of forelegs and heavier feathering on front of neck, back of thighs and underside of tail. Feathering may be lighter than rest of coat. Excessive length, open coats or limp, soft coats are undesirable.* *The natural appearance of coat or outline should not be altered by cutting or clipping, other than the trimming of the feet and neatening of stray hairs.* *Colour lustrous golden of various shades. A few white hairs on chest permissible but not desirable. Further white markings to be faulted except for greying or whitening of the face or body due to age. Any noticeable area of black or other off-colour hair is to be faulted*
> 
> Would that mean blowdrying and other things such as product is frowned upon in Canadian shows as that would fluff up a dog and give the illusion of more or less of a trait?


It is the same in the US. Blow drying a dog _correctly _would not open the coat of make the dog look "fluffy", and there are far fewer exibitors following that trend than there used to be (thankfully). And good judges aren't fooled one bit by grooming. (Most were pro handlers in their day and they know ALL the tricks...) Product (mousses, sprays, chalk) that are left in the coat or can be seen/felt will be penalized.


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## Pudden

Pointgold said:


> How many times do you think Tommy had been in the ring when I took this picture?


I don't think anyone doubts that dogs can assume that position naturally. Pud stands like that all the time when something really gets her attention. 
Still, in the pic in question the dogs looks uncomfortably yanked up, suggesting that at that particular moment that particular dog would have preferred a different stance.


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## Pointgold

Pudden said:


> I don't think anyone doubts that dogs can assume that position naturally. Pud stands like that all the time when something really gets her attention.
> Still, in the pic in question the dogs looks uncomfortably yanked up, suggesting that at that particular moment that particular dog would have preferred a different stance.


All I can tell ya is that every dog that I have handled, will do that with_out _being "yanked" at all, and are certainly not uncomfortable. I'll also tell you that I can name _several _well known judges who have no qualms at all about slapping the hand of someone if they think that a dog _is _being strung up.

You cannot tell from pictures, and until you've been in the shows, or at them, you really don't see how much the dogs love what they are doing. And every dog that I have shown LOVES getting to the photographers stand, and start looking just like that - head up, alert expression (and tails wagging like crazy...) because they love the toys and fun noises they make.


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## Lucky's mom

Pudden said:


> I don't think anyone doubts that dogs can assume that position naturally. Pud stands like that all the time when something really gets her attention.
> Still, in the pic in question the dogs looks uncomfortably yanked up, suggesting that at that particular moment that particular dog would have preferred a different stance.


I really don't think the dog is being "yanked". But I do think he's being posed.

My kids had professional pictures taken a couple of weeks ago. My daughter was asked to smile even though she was grumpy. They sat on rather uncomfortable props and told to pose in positions that seemed awkward in order to present a certain "look". 

This is how I view these pictures. They are posing the dog. When you "pose" or present a look, the point isn't to have the dog do what it feels like doing at the time.


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## Pudden

Pointgold said:


> All I can tell ya is that every dog that I have handled, will do that with_out _being "yanked" at all, and are certainly not uncomfortable. I'll also tell you that I can name _several _well known judges who have no qualms at all about slapping the hand of someone if they think that a dog _is _being strung up.
> 
> You cannot tell from pictures, and until you've been in the shows, or at them, you really don't see how much the dogs love what they are doing. And every dog that I have shown LOVES getting to the photographers stand, and start looking just like that - head up, alert expression (and tails wagging like crazy...) because they love the toys and fun noises they make.


oh, I don't doubt the doggies love it and I never for a second thought there was any unkindness involved. The Pudden would eat it up - all the attention 

All I'm saying is, it _looks _odd in the pictures. The pictures are not flattering. And the point is to show the dog at its best, isn't it? I think it would be much nicer if the leash was held slack, so that the viewer actually saw that the dogs are doing that position on their own. Such as some other pics posted here where the dogs just stand like that and look gorgeous. Why hold the leash so tightly upwards if there's no pressure on it? It just makes the dog look like a marionette. 's all I'm sayin...


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## Pointgold

Lucky's mom said:


> I really don't think the dog is being "yanked". But I do think he's being posed.
> 
> My kids had professional pictures taken a couple of weeks ago. My daughter was asked to smile even though she was grumpy. They sat on rather uncomfortable props and told to pose in positions that seemed awkward in order to present a certain "look".
> 
> This is how I view these pictures. They are posing the dog. When you "pose" or present a look, the point isn't to have the dog do what it feels like doing at the time.


Sorta. But my dogs have never not wanted to do it.


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## Pointgold

Pudden said:


> oh, I don't doubt the doggies love it and I never for a second thought there was any unkindness involved. The Pudden would eat it up - all the attention
> 
> All I'm saying is, it _looks _odd in the pictures. The pictures are not flattering. And the point is to show the dog at its best, isn't it? I think it would be much nicer if the leash was held slack, so that the viewer actually saw that the dogs are doing that position on their own. Such as some other pics posted here where the dogs just stand like that and look gorgeous. Why hold the leash so tightly upwards if there's no pressure on it? It just makes the dog look like a marionette. 's all I'm sayin...


I'm sure that to those unfamiliar with dog shows a lot of things may look odd. 
The leash is held up because the leash dangling looks sloppy and is distracting.


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## Jo Ellen

Why not just drop the leash and have the dog assume the show pose naturally?


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## Pointgold

As stated before, to keep them from blasting after the toys, and also because unless in an obedience exercise, all dogs are to be on a lead.


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## Lucky's mom

Jo Ellen said:


> Why not just drop the leash and have the dog assume the show pose naturally?


Why drop the leash? I don't understand the reasoning...


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## Pudden

Pointgold said:


> The leash is held up because the leash dangling looks sloppy and is distracting.


ya got me there.
My only experience with dog shows is watching the movie "Best in Show", which I thought was hilarious :lol:


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## Pointgold

Pudden said:


> ya got me there.
> My only experience with dog shows is watching the movie "Best in Show", which I thought was hilarious :lol:


 
I. LOVE. THAT. MOVIE. !!!!!!!

Gini and I were at dog shows and went to see it. We nearly died laughing. Even funnier than the movie is that there are so many dog show people who were actually offended by it!!!! Now, THAT cracked me up! Hellloooo... can you say "_mockumentary" ? _And the very best humor is based on truth. That movie is brilliant!


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## K9-Design

Lucky's mom said:


> I really don't think the dog is being "yanked". But I do think he's being posed.
> 
> My kids had professional pictures taken a couple of weeks ago. My daughter was asked to smile even though she was grumpy. They sat on rather uncomfortable props and told to pose in positions that seemed awkward in order to present a certain "look".
> 
> This is how I view these pictures. They are posing the dog. When you "pose" or present a look, the point isn't to have the dog do what it feels like doing at the time.


Bingo. You just won something at a show. You want a perfectly posed shot with every foot and hair in the right place along with your ribbon and the judge, or you want the dog to stand there yawning with his tongue hanging out and all four feet pointing in different directions, just like he does standing in your living room?
I love watching the UK dog shows when they occasionally show them on TV. The dogs are generally just as lovely as their American peers but -- oh god -- the handling is primarily atrocious. There is a very wide gulph between US and UK handling, both skill and style. This doesn't make the dogs any better or worse but we have obviously put much more emphasis on presentation here.


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## Pointgold

K9-Design said:


> Bingo. You just won something at a show. You want a perfectly posed shot with every foot and hair in the right place along with your ribbon and the judge, or you want the dog to stand there yawning with his tongue hanging out and all four feet pointing in different directions, just like he does standing in your living room?
> I love watching the UK dog shows when they occasionally show them on TV. The dogs are generally just as lovely as their American peers but -- oh god -- the handling is primarily atrocious. There is a very wide gulph between US and UK handling, both skill and style. This doesn't make the dogs any better or worse but we have obviously put much more emphasis on presentation here.


 
I have said that I understand and appreciate the differences in styles, but I have often wondered what a couple of the UK dogs that Ithink are fabulous would look like if presented by say, Amy, Sylvia, Laurie, or Bruce or Clint... just for fun.


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## K9-Design

Hi again -- okay -- totally off topic but this is so cute -- we did field training today and Fisher is totally down for the count. He started off right behind me here in the office laying splayed out frog dog, and in the past hour as I did computer stuff he has flipped over on his side, re-flipped to frog dog, flipped back lateral, enough times that he's moved about four feet towards the door, all without actually getting up off the ground. Nice.
 My sweetie is sweepy


----------



## MurphyTeller

Pointgold said:


> I. LOVE. THAT. MOVIE. !!!!!!!
> 
> Gini and I were at dog shows and went to see it. We nearly died laughing. Even funnier than the movie is that there are so many dog show people who were actually offended by it!!!! Now, THAT cracked me up! Hellloooo... can you say "_mockumentary" ? _And the very best humor is based on truth. That movie is brilliant!


BUSY BEE!!!


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## Pointgold

WHo did you want to punch worse - Mr. Whineyrammer or Mrs. Whineyrammer? HAHAHA


----------



## MurphyTeller

Pointgold said:


> WHo did you want to punch worse - Mr. Whineyrammer or Mrs. Whineyrammer? HAHAHA


I was hoping for a two-fer on that one  It'd be even more hysterical if I didn't know dog show people who were JUST like that....


----------



## Pudden

the best thing is, my Mom got a lil' dust-mob pocket pooch, and it's the same breed that wins in the movie (forgot what it's called - some terrier). It's very cute, and a world-champion humper, my Mom reports.

I can't wait to show her this movie when she comes to visit


----------



## Pointgold

Pudden said:


> the best thing is, my Mom got a lil' dust-mob pocket pooch, and it's the same breed that wins in the movie (forgot what it's called - some terrier). It's very cute, and a world-champion humper, my Mom reports.
> 
> I can't wait to show her this movie when she comes to visit


 
A Norwich Terrier. Wonderful little dogs. I own 3 copies of the movie. I actually got 5 as Christmas gifts, and a 6th as a birthday gift. Can you say "regifting rocks?" It IS hysterical and we've watched it over and over again.


----------



## monomer

I got these pictures somewhat at random off the Internet... and since they were already in the public domain I suppose its okay to post them here...
...still I feel kinda uncomfortable about posting photos of someone else's dogs but I will say I think they are all very beautiful examples of the Golden Retriever breed.

In the first two photos, its the same dog... however I much prefer the second photo. The last two photos are of very beautiful dogs that appear a little unnaturally strung up. There were much more exaggerated photos of essentially beautiful Goldens I was looking at earlier today and those pix really gave the impression of a dog being choked for real but since those were so extremely unflattering I don't think it appropriate to post them here.

Anyway, judge for yourselves...

*********************************************************************************** 

EDIT: Unfortunately the photos have now been removed due to possible copyright infringement... I don't wish to take the chance and get the GRF in trouble.... sorry all for the inconvenience.

EDIT of an EDIT: Turns out it is NOT a copyright infringement to re-post pictures that are merely being displayed in public on the Internet... however, it would be too much of a pain-in-the-butt to find and then copy-n-paste them back into this posting so... might I suggest one simply do their own Internet search and after viewing enough 'trophy pix' make up your own mind if you think that type of posing is attractive vs a more natural look.


----------



## Pointgold

The owner of these dogs (a member here) should consider herself very lucky to have someone who has never even been to a dog show critique her dogs.


----------



## Pointgold

I wonder why, prior to the new judge educating everyone, whenever anyone posted photos of Goldens in show poses, everyone ooohed and ahhhed over them - UK or US or wherever? No one went on about them being "strung up" or looking "drab"?


----------



## Emma&Tilly

I suppose because this thread was deliberately opened to discuss the way a dog is handled at shows (I think anyway.) Previous to this thread I have noticed the differences in the ways in which dogs are shown and have probably mentioned it is general conformation topics, just as I have asked about different styles of grooming and enquired about the different ways in which dogs gain titles in the US compared to the UK...I find it quite interesting how different the systems are. I only posted those particular photographs to demonstrate how different two styles of handling could be and would never question the beauty or conformation of the dog...merely the way it is handled.


----------



## Pointgold

Emma&Tilly said:


> I suppose because this thread was deliberately opened to discuss the way a dog is handled at shows (I think anyway.) Previous to this thread I have noticed the differences in the ways in which dogs are shown and have probably mentioned it is general conformation topics, just as I have asked about different styles of grooming and enquired about the different ways in which dogs gain titles in the US compared to the UK...I find it quite interesting how different the systems are. I only posted those particular photographs to demonstrate how different two styles of handling could be and would never question the beauty or conformation of the dog...merely the way it is handled.


And we've had just those kinds of discussions before. But I can never recall any of them opening with "Okay, I just read some books and watched some videos and am now going to the park and judging the dogs there, and the way that UK dogs are shown is _not _attractive. I've never been to a show or handlled a dog, but here's how you should do it"...

I love discussing the topic. Whether I prefer one style of presentation over another , I respect and appreciate the differences, and love learning from those fellow exhibitors and fanciers in other countries. And even as someone who has been showing dogs for a very long time, I would never presume to come here and deem the way it is done by someone else as ugly, painful or uncomfortable, and especially not based on photos. 



Just as an aisde, I think it is quite interesting that when UK quarantine protocols changed and American dogs began exhibiting at Crufts, persented in our "style", they did very well. Including American Champions winning Best in Show in 05, 06, 07, and 09. 

An interesting article:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1578898/Crufts-turns-all-teeth-and-hair.html

Also:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article3511824.ece


----------



## monomer

Settle down there... it is merely about preferences and everyone has them. It is an opinion on what looks better and everyone can have and express theirs, its okay, its a big world, lots of people out there... its really as simple as that. There is no international conspiracy here, some people would rather see a Champion Golden looking 'au natural' in the 'trophy photo' and some prefer that posed position. What I was referring to was the number (and there are quite a few) of what appears to be extreme head positioning poses, of which I cannot in good taste show those photos in this thread as examples. There were actually several 'posed vs natural pix of the same dog' photos I came across last night (just doing a quicky 15-minute search) but they either were inconveniently sized or showed the handler fully in the photo... so unfortunately I couldn't use those examples. In every case though, I found I much preferred to see the dog without any 'strings' attached... but hey, that is just my own preference, totally un-influenced by anyone, anywhere else in the world. There need not be an 'us vs them' mentality to this discussion... let's just keep it simple and light.


----------



## arcane

monomer said:


> In the first two photos, its the same dog... however I much prefer the second photo.


This is NOT the same dog! The top dog is father to the bottom dog! LOL : I just happen to have puppies due by the handsome son!!! Nice choice on photos


----------



## Pointgold

I don't believe that I've made it (nor has anyone else) an "us vs them" discussion at all. And preferences are fine, obviously. But when someone with no knowledge of what is happening during the taking of those photos suggests that the dogs are "strung up", and "choking to death" and that it is "uncomfortable" or "painful", that needs to be addressed and clarified by people who DO know. Because those sorts of statements end up being run with and offer a completely unrealistic and often blatanlty untrue picture of what happens at dog shows. Those of us who compete have all too often heard about how "those poor show dogs never get to play or be real dogs", and "those poor show dogs are mistreated and unhappy", yada yada yada. It's occurred right her on this forum, in fact. 
Statements like that will be taken out of context and it won't be "simple and light". Structure, movement, showing and presentation really is not "simple and light" at all, it takes a lot of work, and committment, to do it well. And I am sure that those members who are sticking their toes in the water, venturing into the rings with their first show dogs, would agree that books and videos alone are not enough to make someone good at it, and without the help and mentoring of a seasoned competitor, it's difficult to do well. Likewise with judging. Check out the requirements for attaining an AKC judges license,. It too is a bit more invovled than reading some books or watching some videos.


----------



## monomer

arcane said:


> This is NOT the same dog! The top dog is father to the bottom dog! LOL : I just happen to have puppies due by the handsome son!!! Nice choice on photos


Whoops! So sorry, thanks for the correction...
...it was very late last night and I was so sleepy, okay that's all the excuses I've got.

Anyway, it was just to use as an example of a possible difference in posing style... :doh:


----------



## arcane

monomer said:


> I got these pictures somewhat at random off the Internet... and since they were already in the public domain I suppose its okay to post them here...


ps. I believe these photos were posted on a private website, with copyright infringement clauses noted. While jo public thinks it is ok to scoop, It really is not without permission from the website owner.


----------



## monomer

arcane said:


> ps. I believe these photos were posted on a private website, with copyright infringement clauses noted. While jo public thinks it is ok to scoop, It really is not without permission from the website owner.


Okay, gotcha...
... I already deleted the photos in my posting, now if you would please delete the photos captured in your quotes of my postings I think we will be all squared away.


----------



## monomer

Just found this on a super-fast internet search and it would appear there was no infringement on my part but evidently it is still up to the courts to make some future ruling some day... I guess after someone actually attempts to bring the issue before a court of law.


"Many photographers post their images on the web. Are those images "published" for purposes of copyright registration? It depends.

You have published your copyright when you distribute copies of your work to the public by sale, lending, or leasing. Publication also includes the offering to distribute copies of your work to others for the purpose of further distribution. Display of a work without more does not in of itself constitute publication. 

The courts have not spoken directly on whether posting a photo on a website constitutes publication. But it should not make a difference that the photo is posted on the internet as opposed to displaying a print. In other words, it is not the act of putting a photograph on a website, but the intent of the posting of the image, that is the determining factor that a photo is published. If it appears that you are offering to license the image or sell a print of the photo from your website, it likely would be classified as published. If you are posting your image only to share it with others, without any obvious intent to sell or further distribute it, it may not be deemed published. "


----------



## mylissyk

Pointgold said:


> I don't believe that I've made it (nor has anyone else) an "us vs them" discussion at all. And preferences are fine, obviously. But when someone with no knowledge of what is happening during the taking of those photos suggests that the dogs are "strung up", and "choking to death" and that it is "uncomfortable" or "painful", that needs to be addressed and clarified by people who DO know. Because those sorts of statements end up being run with and offer a completely unrealistic and often blatanlty untrue picture of what happens at dog shows. Those of us who compete have all too often heard about how "those poor show dogs never get to play or be real dogs", and "those poor show dogs are mistreated and unhappy", yada yada yada. It's occurred right her on this forum, in fact.
> Statements like that will be taken out of context and it won't be "simple and light". Structure, movement, showing and presentation really is not "simple and light" at all, it takes a lot of work, and committment, to do it well. And I am sure that those members who are sticking their toes in the water, venturing into the rings with their first show dogs, would agree that books and videos alone are not enough to make someone good at it, and without the help and mentoring of a seasoned competitor, it's difficult to do well. Likewise with judging. Check out the requirements for attaining an AKC judges license,. It too is a bit more invovled than reading some books or watching some videos.


PG, it was his opinion, why are you taking it as a personal affront? My opinion also, dogs in that position do not appeal to me, they look "hung". I much prefer a more natural appearing stack. That's my personal opinion, and yes I know it is based on zero experience and knowledge the show ring methods, but it's what I prefer.

And, did you really not get that the "judging" was said in jest? To suggest that he meant he was actually comparing his opinion to a licensed judge is ridiculous.

Lighten up, this doesn't have to be an argument.


----------



## Ash

LOL I find this whole conversation pretty entertaining. I don't know how someone can say that dog was choking without being there????? When looking at numbers of pet owner members (most who have never been to a dog show or went to handling classes) and then seeing the number of breeders and exhibtors on this forum - the fact that the members who are active within the conformation community are still going to appear "wrong" as there is such diffrence in numbers. So all you are saying is *you* prefer a freestack over a handstack. Period.


----------



## Lucky's mom

I think when dogs are brought into that position, panting...it may look "strung".

Dogs who go into that position of alertness because they are excited don't pant. Their mouths shut tight.

Regardless my preferance is the "alert' pose..panting or not.


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## mylissyk

What's wrong with a personal preference?

I don't think a professional hand stack is "wrong".


----------



## Ash

I don't think anything is wrong with personal prefrence. I have mine to and I prefer both  I think the thread could have been executed in a positive manner starting with the title. Thats all I am saying. 

ETA: I can tell you 100% that this dog was not "strung up", "gaging", or uncomfortable while taking this photo. As can the person taking the photos who have been in the ring more then myself and finished and pointed more dogs then myself


----------



## Pointgold

mylissyk said:


> PG, it was his opinion, why are you taking it as a personal affront? My opinion also, dogs in that position do not appeal to me, they look "hung". I much prefer a more natural appearing stack. That's my personal opinion, and yes I know it is based on zero experience and knowledge the show ring methods, but it's what I prefer.
> 
> And, did you really not get that the "judging" was said in jest? To suggest that he meant he was actually comparing his opinion to a licensed judge is ridiculous.
> 
> Lighten up, this doesn't have to be an argument.


Gads, Mylissa - I'm not taking it as a personal affront. If you read my posts I have said in nearly every single one of them that I am well aware that it's a matter of preference. And that I appreciate them ALL. I do have a problem with the US style being described in terms that would make it appear that the dogs are somehow being "forced" to do something that they do not want to, or are being cause pain or discomfort, and I've posted why I do. 

As for my own comments on the judging comments, no comment.


----------



## Pointgold

Lucky's mom said:


> I think when dogs are brought into that position, panting...it may look "strung".
> 
> Dogs who go into that position of alertness because they are excited don't pant. Their mouths shut tight.
> 
> Regardless my preferance is the "alert' pose..panting or not.


 
Behaviorists and veterinarians will tell you that in addition to panting to "sweat" that -
"dogs also pant for a lot of other reasons. They pant when they're stressed, when they are happy, when they are excited, and also when they are in pain or discomfort."

I've taken dogs to the photographer for win pics and they've been panting like fiends, along with their butts swinging and their tails wagging. They LIKE being there, the judge is talking to them, the photog is talking to them, and there are TOYS. It can take several attempts to get them settled enough for a decent pic. And then there are dogs like Lyric, who Kim Booth (show dog photog) used to call "One Shot Lyric". She could walk right into position without me and pose herself. AND, she waited until Kim or I would say "OKAY, it's all yours!" before grabbing the tomato toy he always used for her.
Again, preferences aside, unless you are there, and you know the dog, you can't say what was going on.


----------



## peeps

Ash said:


> I don't think anything is wrong with personal prefrence. I have mine to and I prefer both  I think the thread could have been executed in a positive manner starting with the title. Thats all I am saying.
> 
> ETA: I can tell you 100% that this dog was not "strung up", "gaging", or uncomfortable while taking this photo. As can the person taking the photos.
> 
> 
> Nope definitely not strung up , and gorgeous as usual!! This has gotten out of hand. I want to clarify my DRAB description which keeps getting brought back into this conversation - The DRAB description I used was in reference to the two dogs stack and how the first looked so much more alert and present(however i have NEVER shown a dog in a UK ring or a ring where they stack them like that). It is all preference and of course everyone likes a good debate - There are two sides to every story or stack as it were


----------



## Pointgold

peeps said:


> Ash said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think anything is wrong with personal prefrence. I have mine to and I prefer both  I think the thread could have been executed in a positive manner starting with the title. Thats all I am saying.
> 
> ETA: I can tell you 100% that this dog was not "strung up", "gaging", or uncomfortable while taking this photo. As can the person taking the photos.
> 
> 
> Nope definitely not strung up , and gorgeous as usual!! This has gotten out of hand. I want to clarify my DRAB description which keeps getting brought back into this conversation - The DRAB description I used was in reference to the two dogs stack and how the first looked so much more alert and present(however i have NEVER shown a dog in a UK ring or a ring where they stack them like that). It is all preference and of course everyone likes a good debate - There are two sides to every story or stack as it were
> 
> 
> 
> Don't feel bad. I think I said he looked ready for a nap.  But it truly wasn't meant derogatorily, just as compared to the other dog.
> 
> But to suggest that we are "forcing" the dogs into an unnatural posture and causing them discomfort does irk me. It would be as if I would have said "Well, I think that second dog has been given tranquilizers he looks so somber." ******I DO NOT THINK THAT!!!!!! I'm just using it as an illustration! I THINK HE'S LOVELY and presented beautifully in the UK style!!!******
Click to expand...


----------



## peeps

I agree PointGold, I was miffed when I saw the strangled, forced etc too...I have stacked lots of dogs for the ring, photos etc and never forced their heads that way or had them choke!


----------



## Emma&Tilly

This thread is getting a bit pointless now...everyone is just repeating the same thing...so I will aswell (lol) I only posted the photos to demonstrate the different styles, I had no idea they would be referenced to throughout the entire thread and it was more for my own enquiry as to why they are shown in such different ways and what are the reasonings/benefits from a comformation point of view. I said several times that I am sure the dogs are not in pain but the position of that one dog in that one photo, to me does look forced/staged...forced only in the fact that if the handler was not holding up the lead in the way he is in THAT particular picture I think the dog would not have his head up as high as that, his shoulders would be lower and the neck would not be as lengthened as it is...my personal preference!! I do retract the use of the word 'uncomfortable' as you have all assured and convinced me the dogs are perfectly comfortable to be 'guided' into this position by the handler...maybe 'guided' is a better word than forced. I wish I could be there in real life to see if the lead was slackened would the dog move his head and shoulders down? well, I personally believe he would and that is how I would prefer to view him. I don't believe he is been choked/strangled/yanked but I do believe if the handler wasn't holding up the lead he would look in a more natural stance...more like the UK dog which others have given their opinion of also, whether complimentary or not.

Are we all still friends?


----------



## peeps

lol I agreed a few pages ago


----------



## monomer

This is like discussing any interest group or group activity... like toddler beauty pagents, a religious cult, a neo-nazi organization, a political party, the NRA, the Adkins diet people, whatever... You have the general population that pretty much ignores most of what goes on, then there are those 'outsiders' who don't approve, which is obviously why they remain outside the group.. then there are those within the group who tend to be a bit fanatical which is why they are in or affiliated with that group in the first place... they truly believe in what the group is doing or stands for as they have a personal stake in this. Their eternal argument always boils down to the outsider is not part of this group therefore the outsiders will always lack the understanding and are forever misinterpreting the actions of the group. Now of course this is somewhat of a catch-22 situation... and thus a stalemate. This latter group can often be said to be a little hyper-sensitive (due to a reasoning process needed to advert any possible cognitive dissonance within themselves). Doesn't mean the group's interest or the group's activity is right/wrong or good/bad or may indeed be simply misterpreted, rather it just means differing perspectives (or a lack of understanding) winds-up engendering differing opinions. This is a normal part of the human condition.


If only 'safe topics' are allowed where everyone must agree with everyone else or personal offense is the only sure immediate outcome then what's the point of a forum... any forum for that matter. Be happy you have been provided an opportunity to dispell the beliefs/myths of a dog choking, etc. rather than continue to have people thinking it but then 'politely' not wishing to broach the subject of their thoughts for fear of offending someone. If one is looking to be offend, trust me, one can never be dissappointed... ever!


Again I'm proctoring a final exam so I'm killing some more time and decided to put forth some more thoughts on the matter and about the turn this thread has taken so far...


----------



## Pointgold

Emma & Tilly, of COURSE we are still friends, and I totally understand your points. My concerns are when derogatory words are used, and then as is always the case, are taken out of context and dog shows and exhibitors are ultimately painted as being cruel, and exploiting/forcing, etc dogs. 

As Ash stated, were the discussion truly meant to be about learning about the topic, it would not have been named as it was, and the op wouldn't have used his standard explanation (as is his last post) to assure us all that us "insiders" have yet again not invited the "outsiders" to the party, and simply have been "fanatic" and "hyper-sensitive". 

"Hail Cesar" redeux much? LOL


----------



## monomer

Pointgold said:


> ...As Ash stated, were the discussion truly meant to be about learning about the topic, it would not have been named as it was, and the op wouldn't have used his standard explanation (as is his last post) to assure us all that us "insiders" have yet again not invited the "outsiders" to the party, and simply have been "fanatic" and "hyper-sensitive".
> 
> "Hail Cesar" redeux much? LOL


There it is again... you can find offense everywhere you look if you wish to see it...
I never took any of your snide remarks to the point of offense, wish you'd be able to say the same... end of story.


----------



## historicprim

monomer said:


> This is like discussing any interest group or group activity... like toddler beauty pagents, a religious cult, a neo-nazi organization, a political party, the Adkins diet, whatever... You have the general population that pretty much ignores most of what goes on, then there are those 'outsiders' who don't approve, which is obviously why they remain outside the group.. then there are those within the group who tend to be a bit fanatical which is why they are in or affiliated with that group in the first place... they truly believe in what the group is doing or stands for as they have a personal stake in this. Their eternal arguement always boils down to the outsider is not part of this group therefore the outsiders will always lack the understanding and are forever misinterpreting the actions of the group. This latter group can often be said to be a little hyper-sensitive (due to a reasoning process needed to advert any possible cognitive dissonance within themselves). Doesn't mean the group's interest or the group's activity is right/wrong or good/bad or may indeed be simply misterpreted, rather it just means differing perspectives (or a lack of understanding) winds-up engendering differing opinions. This is a normal part of the human condition.
> 
> 
> If only 'safe topics' are allowed where everyone must agree with everyone else or personal offense is the only sure immediate outcome then what's the point of a forum... any forum for that matter. Be happy you have been provided an opportunity to dispell the beliefs/myths of a dog choking, etc. rather than continue to have people thinking it but then 'politely' not wishing to broach the subject of their thoughts for fear of offending someone. If one is looking to be offend, trust me, one can never be dissappointed... ever!
> 
> 
> Again I'm proctoring a final exam so I'm killing some more time and decided to put forth some more thoughts on the matter and about this thread so far...


I think you are missing the point which is a very simple one. 
Its call passion and devotion for what they do. You cant learn that in books or cds!


----------



## Pointgold

monomer said:


> There it is again... you can find offense everywhere you look if you wish to see it...
> I never took any of your snide remarks to the point of offense, wish you'd be able to say the same... end of story.


 
C'mon, Monomer. You can bury or veil the words in a long monologue, but calling people "fanatics" and "hyper-sensitive (due to a reasoning process needed to advert any possible cognitive dissonance within themselves)" :doh: is most certainly not being done in the spirit of good discussion. 

I think that with very few exceptions, those of us who have participated in this discussion in that very spirit have enjoyed it and respected each other's preferences.


----------



## monomer

historicprim said:


> I think you are missing the point which is a very simple one.
> Its call passion and devotion for what they do. You cant learn that in books or cds!


Yes, but please go back and re-read the postings and you will see that was never the issue... PG kept trying to make it part of her personal rail against me as if it were the issue. As if it were repeated enough somehow it would be construed as being an issue... evidently judging by your posting it indeed did worked to some extent. What I actually did was I merely stated a personal preference about the look of many trophy pictures I've been viewing but presented it along with a background story to introduce how it all came to be. Its what I always do... some people find it very interesting to hear a complete thought process as opposed to a simple one or two liner posting all the time. Passion and devotion is also a part of hyper-sensitivity and being a fanatic... I am this way about Plastics Technology and teaching but I try my best to understand this in myself and rein in my attitude when teaching (I also do quite a few industry seminars where my audience/students are long time 30-40 year experienced professionals and also high-level execs). If I took offense to every comment made I'd have never been so successful in educating all these people about plastics processes and their major issues. One has to step outside of one's self on occassion to get a more objective view of how the rest of the world might see things. This entails taking a neutral reading of comments and suggestions and allows for differing perspectives.


----------



## monomer

Pointgold said:


> C'mon, Monomer. You can bury or veil the words in a long monologue, but calling people "fanatics" and "hyper-sensitive (due to a reasoning process needed to advert any possible cognitive dissonance within themselves)" :doh: is most certainly not being done in the spirit of good discussion.
> 
> I think that with very few exceptions, those of us who have participated in this discussion in that very spirit have enjoyed it and respected each other's preferences.


I tire of this foolishness. You will see whatever you wish to see... you've always been that way and I assume will be forever. It's your MO.

Enough of this silly bickering... you can have the rest of it all to yourself like always.


----------



## Pointgold

Is that your final answer? LOL 
A fanatic is defined as a person marked or motivated by an extreme, unreasoning enthusiasm, with an intolerance for differing opinions. Seems more relevant to your following of Cesar Milan's methods than to my participation in dog shows, as demonstrated by my appreciation and understanding of other styles and preferences in presentation. Because you've even gone so far as to suggest that people who do not agree with Cesar Milan are in fact racist, and wouldn't feel that way if he were not Mexican. 

Seriously. My concerns were the words used, right from the naming of the thread, which would give the impression that dogs were being treated poorly.


----------



## Ambertru

monomer said:


> Just found this on a super-fast internet search and it would appear there was no infringement on my part but evidently it is still up to the courts to make some future ruling some day... I guess after someone actually attempts to bring the issue before a court of law.
> 
> 
> "Many photographers post their images on the web. Are those images "published" for purposes of copyright registration? It depends.
> 
> You have published your copyright when you distribute copies of your work to the public by sale, lending, or leasing. Publication also includes the offering to distribute copies of your work to others for the purpose of further distribution. Display of a work without more does not in of itself constitute publication.
> 
> The courts have not spoken directly on whether posting a photo on a website constitutes publication. But it should not make a difference that the photo is posted on the internet as opposed to displaying a print. In other words, it is not the act of putting a photograph on a website, but the intent of the posting of the image, that is the determining factor that a photo is published. If it appears that you are offering to license the image or sell a print of the photo from your website, it likely would be classified as published. If you are posting your image only to share it with others, without any obvious intent to sell or further distribute it, it may not be deemed published. "


Just for the record, the photos that you used were from my website, of my dogs (with exception of one who is the sire of my boy) and it is clearly posted on my site "All graphics copyright Ambertru Golden Retrievers. Copying without permission is strictly prohibited". Not that I wouldn't have gladly given permission had you asked. 

For the record, there is a huge difference between holding a collar in a flattering position on an alert dog and stringing one up. As you could clearly see in Logan's self stack picture there was no stringing up involved. He just happens to have a beautiful long elegant neck. That same picture, with someone holding his collar up and out of the way could be misinterpreted as stringing up. (see photo below) Trust me, he was having a good time as were all the dogs in the represented pictures.


----------



## historicprim

I thought this was a good example of a dog free stacked as far as the natural position of her neck and head. Wish she had that tail up and stacked better


----------



## Pointgold

Oh oh! Look! She's being strung up!!!!


----------



## arcane

monomer said:


> Just found this on a super-fast internet search and it would appear there was no infringement on my part but evidently it is still up to the courts to make some future ruling some day... I guess after someone actually attempts to bring the issue before a court of law.
> "Many photographers post their images on the web. Are those images "published" for purposes of copyright registration? It depends.
> 
> You have published your copyright when you distribute copies of your work to the public by sale, lending, or leasing. Publication also includes the offering to distribute copies of your work to others for the purpose of further distribution. Display of a work without more does not in of itself constitute publication.
> 
> The courts have not spoken directly on whether posting a photo on a website constitutes publication. But it should not make a difference that the photo is posted on the internet as opposed to displaying a print. In other words, it is not the act of putting a photograph on a website, but the intent of the posting of the image, that is the determining factor that a photo is published. If it appears that you are offering to license the image or sell a print of the photo from your website, it likely would be classified as published. If you are posting your image only to share it with others, without any obvious intent to sell or further distribute it, it may not be deemed published. "


You know, maybe my contract would stand up in court either, BUT it is just common courtesy to ask permission. In this "I'll just take what I want society" I guess there are many that don't have a clue about the concept.


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## Ljilly28

Pointgold said:


> Dogs can and do stand like that on their own, as when free stacked.
> .


I have never shown Tally in conformation, and he just learned Stand for Exam for the Obedience ring recently. However, he does naturally compose himself into a "stack"like the one being discussed as naturally as he breathes. It takes my breath away. I think that is why dogs are stacked that way in the American showring- to convey th take-your-breath-away emotion of a dog who is balanced, alert, with a lovely topline, front and rear. 

I would be skeptical too if I'd only seen photos with the leash looking 'strangley", except that I see Tally put himself in that show position so easily&often.


I grew up showing Morgan horses, who learn to stack themselves much like an American golden, at a tap on the shoulder and the command "set up". This is to very slightly exagerate the horse's best points and show the best in his topline and rear, crest and front and elegant neck, as he leans forward. It is a stretch and a weight distribution difference from "normal", but not painful in any way. It is festive and much more beautiful than the same horse just standing there. 

At dog shows, you see the goldens who are experienced stack themselves.

The UK dog in the photo, no matter how deserving and well-structured, does not even come close to taking my breath away. There's not as much "show" in the show dog. . . That's just my taste in presentation though, not a comment on the dog.


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## arcane

Ash said:


> ETA: I can tell you 100% that this dog was not "strung up", "gaging", or uncomfortable while taking this photo. As can the person taking the photos who have been in the ring more then myself and finished and pointed more dogs then myself


*Ash I think you are pulling on her tail!!!!!!!!!!! * :curtain:eepwall:


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## Loboto-Me

Gorgeous dogs! They look very proud, as they should be  .


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## arcane

here is one I quickly dug up ..this shot was in the middle of a snow storm and something caught her eye "Tauri as a little one" I much prefer to showcase my guys this way! AU Natural!!!!!!!!! See they can and Do ....do this on their own! No Strings Attached!!! :


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## Doolin

I have to agree with the dogs being able to free stack themselves into the position you see in many of the Show Photos. These photos are of my boy at just under two years old and just under 4 months old. You can see that this is quite a natural pose and very much untrained. Dogs with good structure will just fall into this pose when at attention. The key at the shows is to keep them from leaping off the platform.


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## Ljilly28

Doolin, who is the pup in the 2nd picture? So beautiful!


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## Kohanagold

historicprim said:


> I thought this was a good example of a dog free stacked as far as the natural position of her neck and head. Wish she had that tail up and stacked better


I think for the most part, this picture shows exactly the point. I dont mean to signal you out, historicprim, but I dont think I could get a better picture if I tried. This shows exactly why the collar is held how it is. Notice how the collar has fallen back on the dogs neck? It causes the illusion of a dog with a short neck because it cuts the neck almost in 1/2. If the collar was held up, out of the way, behind the ears, it would then show the true length of neck of the dog. You can see easy enough in a picture where the base of the neck is, but when the collar is right at the top of the neck (behind the ears), it shows that the dogs neck is acutally NOT short and is quite lovely and it turn, makes it obvious how truly nice the dog's neck is. 

I have to say, I'm a neck and head person, so when I see a dog with a lovely neck, I really like to see it shown off. The other method of the picture, while you can tell the dog has a nice long neck, it appears short because its as though the dogs head is being held too far forward. I dont like to see dogs with their head directly above their front feet, but there are certainly 2 extremes. I also find it somewhat "sloppy", but that's just my opinion. Bring out a squeeky or a ball and you'll see a completely different dog.

I, too, obviously prefer the "strung up" look (cant think of how else to decipher them, sorry). I also think that people that have had a hand in shows over here do appreciate both styles, but they have a preference. Unfortunately, no number of photos showing the pose as natural seems to have any bearing on bringing the blinders down. Sad...... BJ


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## Bogey's Mom

Ljilly28 said:


> Doolin, who is the pup in the 2nd picture? So beautiful!


Are they both Putter? That would be my guess.


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## Ash

arcane said:


> *Ash I think you are pulling on her tail!!!!!!!!!!! * :curtain:eepwall:


LMAO - I should try putting that tail on a leash.


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## historicprim

Kohanagold said:


> I think for the most part, this picture shows exactly the point. I dont mean to signal you out, historicprim, but I dont think I could get a better picture if I tried. This shows exactly why the collar is held how it is. Notice how the collar has fallen back on the dogs neck? It causes the illusion of a dog with a short neck because it cuts the neck almost in 1/2. If the collar was held up, out of the way, behind the ears, it would then show the true length of neck of the dog. You can see easy enough in a picture where the base of the neck is, but when the collar is right at the top of the neck (behind the ears), it shows that the dogs neck is acutally NOT short and is quite lovely and it turn, makes it obvious how truly nice the dog's neck is.
> 
> I have to say, I'm a neck and head person, so when I see a dog with a lovely neck, I really like to see it shown off. The other method of the picture, while you can tell the dog has a nice long neck, it appears short because its as though the dogs head is being held too far forward. I dont like to see dogs with their head directly above their front feet, but there are certainly 2 extremes. I also find it somewhat "sloppy", but that's just my opinion. Bring out a squeeky or a ball and you'll see a completely different dog.
> 
> I, too, obviously prefer the "strung up" look (cant think of how else to decipher them, sorry). I also think that people that have had a hand in shows over here do appreciate both styles, but they have a preference. Unfortunately, no number of photos showing the pose as natural seems to have any bearing on bringing the blinders down. Sad...... BJ


I understand exactly what you are saying and I do agree, just wanted to show a picture of a dog who is relaxed and not baited. My husbands trainer on the other hand teaches people to loose lead.
Her theory is the judges are impressed by this method, also if you notice this lead is way to small for her, it's one of our other girls leads. Here's a better photo of her.


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## Kohanagold

historicprim said:


> I understand exactly what you are saying and I do agree, just wanted to show a picture of a dog who is relaxed and not baited. My husbands trainer on the other hand teaches people to loose lead.
> Her theory is the judges are impressed by this method, also if you notice this lead is way to small for her, it's one of our other girls leads. Here's a better photo of her.


She's lovely! I just read my post and realized that it could be taken that my comments about the lead were directed at you. LOL. That's not the case, so I hope you dont feel that way. I just thought it was a great picture to show why the collar is held up behind the ears, rather than having it "loose" or something that appears to be less choking to the dog. Kinda my version of the answer as to "why they do that". My appologies if I stepped on any toes and that certainly was not my intent. BJ


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## Doolin

Sorry, to answer the questions- yes that is Putter in both picks. I just thought it was a good example of a dog pulling himself into the position being discussed... naturally.


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## goldengirls550

MurphyTeller said:


> BUSY BEE!!!



Sorry for being off topic, but this is one of my FAVORITE scenes! I laughed so hard during this movie, I was DYING!!


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## Gwen

Pointgold said:


> Oh oh! Look! She's being strung up!!!!


Behave, Laura!

Since I haven't put my 2 cents worth in, I'd rather hang a picture with pose #1 on my wall than pose #2. Pose #1 is so much more regal than the more relaxed #2. Does this regal pose come at any cost/harm to the dog - it can take a little more time and the dogs seem to enjoy their "posing" (at least my Nyg does). When I look @ Nyg's pictures similar to #1, I remember the toys/treats thrown to get him into that pose.

Yes, I vote for pose #1! Final answer!


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## avincent52

Pose #2. Why? Two rather attractive young ladies, which is better than much of what I see in most dog show photos.

And that's how it's going to be in the show Monomer and I are running. (I'll be a judge too since I read that thread yesterday.)

Welcome to the IAMS-Maxim Top Dog, Top Model competition. In this made-for-TV event, all the dogs will be handled by supermodels and celebrity hotties! Look at that front! Look at those hocks! 

Sure, the grooming and heeling may leave a little to be desired. And this dog does look just a bit "strung up." But will host David Spade really care?


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## hotel4dogs

I think the pose looks a bit unnatural. Most people don't hold their arm up like that. Also, the smile looks more like a grimace. Not natural at all. The hair coloring doesn't seem to be natural, either, I suspect there's been some product added.
I think she's been strung up and should have been posed more naturally. Or maybe strung out....



avincent52 said:


> Pose #2. Why? Two rather attractive young ladies, which is better than much of what I see in most dog show photos.
> 
> And that's how it's going to be in the show Monomer and I are running. (I'll be a judge too since I read that thread yesterday.)
> 
> Welcome to the IAMS-Maxim Top Dog, Top Model competition. In this made-for-TV event, all the dogs will be handled by supermodels! Look at that front! Look at those hocks!
> 
> Sure, the grooming and heeling may leave a little to be desired. And this dog does look just a bit "strung up." But will host David Spade really care?


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## paula bedard

Wow, I've been away for a while and this Thread is still going strong. Pretty interesting and fun read, though Monomer might not agree. Loved 'Best In Show', hilarious. Allen does it again too. Where do you find these pictures? I'd like to see her walking a Chi-Neuf. 

Hotel4Dogs, I think you're right about 'strung out'....the huge dark glasses are a dead give away. That dog's a bit close for comfort to her shirt ties also....one quick tug and I do believe she'd then be 'au naturale.'


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## hotel4dogs

AND just for the record, one of the first things I learned in conformation classes is that a PROPERLY positioned collar doesn't choke the dog at all. It's when the collar isn't in the right place you will get the dog choking and gagging. 
So I'm thinking maybe people who have never had that explained might be perceiving the "stringing up" as the same type of choking you see with pet owners who are trying to control their dogs, whereas really it's more like someone putting their hands under your chin and lifting your head a bit.


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## MurphyTeller

avincent52 said:


> Welcome to the IAMS-Maxim Top Dog, Top Model competition. In this made-for-TV event, all the dogs will be handled by supermodels! Look at that front! Look at those hocks!
> 
> Sure, the grooming and heeling may leave a little to be desired. And this dog does look just a bit "strung up." But will host David Spade really care?


Wow - that's one way to finish a dog in a hurry!! Heck, Teller would even carry her bag for her!!

Does she do ringside drop-off? (Giggle)


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## Pointgold

Can anyone tell me if social groups on the forum are invitation only or open to everyone?


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## avincent52

> I think she's been strung up and should have been posed more naturally. Or maybe strung out....


I agree. Here'a a more natural pose, where you can see her true conformation. It is really amazing how different the dog looks in both pictures. That's the mark of a great handler.












MurphyTeller said:


> Wow - that's one way to finish a dog in a hurry!! Heck, Teller would even carry her bag for her!! (Giggle)


She could probably finish more than a dog.


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## Thor0918

avincent52 said:


> I agree. Here'a a more natural pose, where you can see her true conformation. It is really amazing how different the dog looks in both pictures. That's the mark of a great handler.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She could probably finish more than a dog.


 Oh, I'm sure she could.

PG which social group do you want to join??? I don't think I could keep up with the big dogs


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## avincent52

Thor0918 said:


> Oh, I'm sure she could.
> 
> PG which social group do you want to join??? I don't think I could keep up with the big dogs


I'm looking to join an anti-social group. 

allen


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## Thor0918

avincent52 said:


> I'm looking to join an anti-social group.
> 
> allen


Oh no, not you. You wouldn't fit in!:no:


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## avincent52

Thor0918 said:


> Oh no, not you. You wouldn't fit in!:no:


Would too, ******!


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## T&T

Thor0918 said:


> Oh no, not you. You wouldn't fit in!:no:


 
WHY NOT ?


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## sammydog

My not so expert opinion here. Since I know nothing about showing dogs 

Barley got to have his picture taken for his agility wins at the Regional, so I got to see quite a few of the conformation dogs having their pictures taken as well. It was a very fun experience. As an "outsider" opinion, all of the dogs and people seemed very happy and proud. Never once did the thought of dogs being "strung up" cross my mind. I think anything that involves treats, toys and being the center of attention is good in any Golden's book!

I think the conformation win pictures are absolutely stunning! Congrats to everyone who has one hanging on their wall.

It’s probably best to reserve such strong comments like “choking to death” unless you have actually seen the pictures being taken…


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## Pointgold

Anyone who might be interested in a serious discussion group re: structure/movement please pm me.


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## Gwen

No stringing up required here although Nyg's feet aren't in proper placement!


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