# Does anyone have any experience with Mountain Springs Kennel?



## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Quick glance is no, clearances aren't complete & not a breeder I personally would be seeking out. Do you have a particular litter you're looking at? Have you reached out to the breeder referral at your local golden club?


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Here is a thread that might give you some leads:

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...py/443737-help-english-cream-breeders-ny.html


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## Kalhayd (May 4, 2016)

Is it typical to charge $500 to $1000 more based purely on the color of the dog? I'm very new to reading clearances, but some of the dogs I pulled I couldn't even find- the others were missing or had outdated reports. The link Nolefan provided should be very useful to you! Good luck!


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

If you are looking for full and verifiable health certifications, you are not going to find it with this breeder.


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## HAOregon67 (May 29, 2018)

Nezrah said:


> Hey,
> 
> I am looking into getting a really light golden retriever that appears to be called an "English Creame", but health is most important to me. I can't figure out how to look up and verify OFA and other health certifications. Is there anyone that has the time to help me out?
> 
> ...


 I realize this information is probably coming too late but we recently purchased a puppy from Mountain Springs kennel in cinebarre Washington and he has multiple health issues including urinary tract infection, your infections in both ears, he was underweight when we first got him. Showed signs of aggression and we are testing him for possible lepto and A genetic chronic in curable skin disease called ichthyosis, Which is chronicly flaking , red and irritated skin. This opens the dog up to skin infections as they’re losing their outer layer of skin. We have spent several hundred dollars on vet bills in the six weeks we have had the puppy. In contacting the breeder they showed no concern for the dog other than just to say bring him back. We adore the puppy and he is part of our family and we are of the mindset that when you adopt a puppy or any pets it is for life. But we are saddened that he has so many health conditions for such a young dog . They have not tested for the skin condition as we found out. There is no cure and treatment is expensive and very very time-consuming as he will need baths four times a week with special shampoo and conditioner that must sit on his coat 15 to 20 minutes apiece. I did a lot of research before going to this breeder but there are no reviews online about them, And their website and Instagram accounts are all very glowing. So we thought we were OK to buy a puppy from them.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I started inputting Bear's OFA into K9data this AM- what a rabbit hole to go down! So many issues with dysplasia in this pedigree. I only got two of them into the database.


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## Molly Picatti-Baker (Sep 24, 2018)

Bear was in utero when mom was imported. You will not find past him as European dogs are not in our system for hips. My guy just turned 3. Hes never made mess in house. He could sit at 8 weeks and tested to be therapy dog at 1. I have complete health records and certificates. Love my guy so much getting full brother this fall.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Pedigree: Lake Country Mountain Snow Bear is Bear. Whether imported or not, his dam should have an OFA record and does not. Our clearances are much more stringent than those in the Ukraine... and she lives here. Especially since the website quite clearly claims 'all our dogs/co-owned dogs have their hips and elbows OFA cleared' ... which is obviously not true.


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## Molly Picatti-Baker (Sep 24, 2018)

Mountain Springs doesn't own Bears mom. She has certification under European standards. I know when they has a female they kept who had fair hips at initial inspection, they found her a home and didn't keep her for breeding. I have seen certs on all the dogs parents I have gotten, so not sure where its coming from that they dont have them. All 3 males have certs, and looks that all but maybe 2 females dont outside of the retired ones. Lake Country Misty Morning is actually Lake Country Misty Mountain, as I know 1 of her puppies. If your worried, ask the owners or dont get a puppy from a litter combination without one. Like I said I have known many of their dogs and none have cancer or issues. Every breeder can have a fluke in a litter over the years.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Not sure I'm reading OFA correctly but appears "Bear" was bred twice (under age, born 2014 & bred 2015) before getting hip & elbow clearances and no eye or cardiac clearances posted to OFA? Out of 6 offspring listed 3 have elbow dysplasia and one failed hip. Certainly not a male I would want to breed to.


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## Molly Picatti-Baker (Sep 24, 2018)

Prism Goldens said:


> I started inputting Bear's OFA into K9data this AM- what a rabbit hole to go down! So many issues with dysplasia in this pedigree. I only got two of them into the database.


If they dont have OFA's as being in Europe, where did you find all these issues with dysplasia?


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Molly Picatti-Baker said:


> If they dont have OFA's as being in Europe, where did you find all these issues with dysplasia?


https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=1695833 easy breezy... and awful. I can tell you feel defensive and bothered that this breeder is being criticized, but it is what it is. 
If you are going to invest in more puppies from this breeder, you should try to learn to read OFA by going to siblings, their offspring, his own offspring, and realize when you see an elbow number and no hip number, that is a fail hip.. and vice versa.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

And also- importing bitches in whelp, not a great idea. 
The shots the export requires sometimes cause
birth defects, particularly in the heart, and just from the standpoint of best practices, who sells a bitch in whelp anyway? Or buys one, for that matter?


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=1664418 here is your misty mountain or morning- the databases say mountain-
https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=1619373 Kita's page
Bailey has no clearances
Charm- https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=1600009

these are all pretty scary OFA pages imo. 
There is a White Lightning with roman numerals on OFA, he came out of Sandar stock. You have to be involved in the breed or open to learning to realize these are not bets a preservation breeder would make or pedigrees they would build on. I hope you will be lucky.


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## Molly Picatti-Baker (Sep 24, 2018)

Mountain springs didnt import the mom, so I would look at that breeder for doing that. The dogs are all sold on limited registrations, so as with my 3yr old, I didnt do hips or elbows as he is not for breeding. He is a great therapy dog at the military hospital out here and at the USO at the airport and brings joy to our soldiers and their families. He has had no issues, nor has any in the litters with the cross he is. When I had a female years ago and went thru the OFA's the hips and elbows were done differently as elbows were not as big of a deal then. Having had my last 2 die of cancer, 1 being from Westminster Best in Group Andy, I look for cancer lines and the imported creams are healthier around this area. Most breeders have Rush Hills in them and and has flooded this area, great dogs, just not alot of diversity locally. Its too bad that someone had a problem with a dog, but I have seen that happen in high end breeders. Honestly my best golden was a back yard breed in 1989. He had great OFA's and lived to be 15. Also looking at say Bears offspring, the poor elbows seem to be connected possibly to another kennel where it looks like the dam doesnt have any OFA's. Now is it bad that the breeding happened, yes, but the current kennel may not have owned him. I also know that the Jan 1 2014 date is wrong. My guy just turned 3 and Bear was not a puppy when he was born. Also he shows half siblings on dams side with exact same bday. I think there are some errors.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

But here is the thing- if you don't want to see it, you never will- 
regardless of who imported the bitch in whelp, or who did what, THIS dog is being used for breeding and for that one CAN blame this breeder. 

Here (happenstance happens) a link on Sandar came up today:https://www.goldenretrieverforum.co...uppy/215178-sandar-goldens-4.html#post7664030

These are just not lines used by breeders interested in health and longevity. Consider that the 'imported creams' in your area are not really healthier, there is just less info out there. These animals from eastern europe are not the best the breeder made, or they wouldn't have sold them- and they are also typically clearanced at a year or less, and there are no databases to verify any of it much less longevity. As well, typically the breeders of this type dog have zero experience in any venue of competition, they are just making puppies for sale. I do wish you best w your dog, but also do think you seem intelligent and should try to research the pedigree you're considering buying from an unemotional place and look at the sibs, offspring, etc. Elbows have been 'a thing' since 2000, it was 2001 or so that they became Code of Ethics clearances.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

I have European lines in my breeding program, as in I flew to Europe to be able to work with a great breeder who will not just ship puppies over here to anyone with cash. Honestly, you could not pay me to take a puppy from this breeder. There is just so much lacking here in terms of depth of certifications. 

Please remember lack of information is not proof of lack of issues. European bred dogs absolutely have cancer. It is just that overseas it is seen as a more private affair and not as openly discuss or discloseed as it in the US. Also, you have many lack luster breeders here who don’t know and don’t care what is behind their dogs and don’t dig in to research. The first dog to die of cancer in the Morris foundation cancer study was of completely European pedigree. 

If you like the look/style, there are better breeders out there. This is just a lot of risk.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Molly Picatti-Baker said:


> I also know that the Jan 1 2014 date is wrong. My guy just turned 3 and Bear was not a puppy when he was born. Also he shows half siblings on dams side with exact same bday. I think there are some errors.


If that date is wrong it is also wrong on his three full sibs on OFA- which means 4 separate applications had the wrong date on them. k9data shows these dogs all input by different people (check change history) with the same birthday. And the half sib w same DOB out of dam- that's obviously a dual sire breeding...


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

So Molly, is Bear your dog? Or are you the breeder that imported his mom and Bear is the pop that as in utero? This is getting hard to follow


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

puddles everywhere said:


> Not sure I'm reading OFA correctly but appears "Bear" was bred twice (under age, born 2014 & bred 2015) before getting hip & elbow clearances and no eye or cardiac clearances posted to OFA? Out of 6 offspring listed 3 have elbow dysplasia and one failed hip. Certainly not a male I would want to breed to.


I count 3 breedings before he was 2- out of Traditions Maya, Lake Country Misty Mountain, Mountain Morning Star. And you're right about the dismal OFAs. People that aim for coat color only are the only people who would breed to him. It should go without saying, folks looking, that coat color isn't the thing to shop for.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

for those interested in Eastern European titles, which I looked up the process for simply because I wondered why someone would 'invest' in finishing a CH on a bitch then export her in whelp to a not well known breeder in the US, it is not even as hard as the easy intCH here in the US- 
add to that their show schedule shows two shows each day of each weekend most weekends of the year, I would hazard a guess that every dog there is a CH. 


Awarding of the "CHAMPION OF UKRAINIAN KENNEL UNION" title
(is awarded by the titles received in 2011, CAC is not devalued for the next titles, does not give right to show in the Champion Class)

The "CHAMPION OF UKRAINIAN KENNEL UNION" title is awarded if the owner of the dog provides the UKU office with the certificates of:
- 2 х САС + 2 х САСIB awarded at the double CACIB Dog Shows in Kyiv (in April - "Golden Gates" and "Ukraine", in December - "Kyiv Rus" and "Crystal Cup").
- for the working breeds Working Certificate + 1 х САС + 1 х САСIB awarded at the double CACIB Dog Shows in Kyiv (in April - "Golden Gates" and "Ukraine", in December - "Kyiv Rus" and "Crystal Cup").
- for the breeds not recognized by the FCI 2 х САС + 2 х Best Dog of the Breed or 2 х Best Bitch of the Breed.

Awarding of the "CHAMPION OF UKRAINE" title

The "CHAMPION OF UKRAINE" title is awarded if the owner of the dog provides the UKU office with the certificates of:

- 6 х САС at the САС Dog Shows in Ukraine for the period not less than 1 year and 1 day (given at least by 5 different judges).
- 3 х САС at the CАС Dog Shows in Ukraine + 1 х САС at the CACIB Dog Show in Ukraine for the period not less than 1 year and 1 day (given by different judges).
- 3 х САС at the CАС Dog Shows in Ukraine + 1 х САС at the double CACIB Dog Show in Kyiv (in April - "Golden Gates" and "Ukraine", in December - "Kyiv Rus" and "Crystal Cup") for the period not less than 6 months (given by different judges).
- 2 х САС at any double CACIB Dog Shows in any city of Ukraine and 1 x CAC at the double CACIB Dog Show in Kyiv (in April - "Golden Gates" and "Ukraine", in December - "Kyiv Rus" and "Crystal Cup").
- 2 x CAC at the double CACIB Dog Show in Kyiv (in April - "Golden Gates" and "Ukraine", in December - "Kyiv Rus" and "Crystal Cup").
- for the working breeds Working Certificate + 1 х САС + 1 х САСIB 
- 1 x CAC at any dog show in Ukraine and certificate of the Best Dog or Best Bitch at the National Breed Championships in Kyiv

The citizens of Belarus, Bulgaria, Georgia, Cyprus, Latvia, Lithuania, Moldova, Russia, Romania, Serbia, Monte *****, Finland, Estonia, Poland, Czech Republic provide: 
- 1 x САС - awarded at any CACIB Dog Show in Ukraine and the certificate of the Champion of the dog owner's native country.
- 2 x САС - awarded at any CAC Dog Show in Ukraine and the certificate of the Champion of the dog owner's native country.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

I'm guessing Molly bugged out... never did reply to my question. I'm guessing (from the post) that Bear was her dog and she is responsible for breeding this boy at 13 months. So did she buy the mom or just Bear? I'm so confused! 

OK, I realize there can be more than one sire in a litter but going to ask a rookie question. How do you know which pups belong to which sire without doing DNA testing on all the puppies??


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

puddles everywhere said:


> I'm guessing Molly bugged out... never did reply to my question. I'm guessing (from the post) that Bear was her dog and she is responsible for breeding this boy at 13 months. So did she buy the mom or just Bear? I'm so confused!
> 
> OK, I realize there can be more than one sire in a litter but going to ask a rookie question. How do you know which pups belong to which sire without doing DNA testing on all the puppies??


The only way to know is to DNA each puppy, mom and dad's. It's one of the reasons dual sired litters are so expensive to do!


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## CoveredInDogFur (Sep 17, 2018)

From what I understood, it sounded like they own one of Bear’s offspring.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Thanks covered... wow was I off base, totally didn't pick up on that. What a crazy mess... I would be doing paternity testing! Or at least asking for the dna results IF they were done. I take that back... I would have NEVER gotten involved with this in the 1st place.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

puddles everywhere said:


> Thanks covered... wow was I off base, totally didn't pick up on that. What a crazy mess... I would be doing paternity testing! Or at least asking for the dna results IF they were done. I take that back... I would have NEVER gotten involved with this in the 1st place.


Not suggesting this is what happened here, since they don't appear to be students of the breed, but there are good reasons for doing dual sire sometimes- say your bitch is on her last litter and Studly Sr is dead but frozen and perfect for her, but you don't want to miss this last breeding so you do a surgical w the frozen and then let Young Fella cover her IRL, then you DNA the puppies, mama and Sr would have DNA on file w AKC (since he's frozen)but Young Fella would also have to do AKC DNA. That all before you register the litter.
It's costly- two stud fees, a surgical breeding, two DNAs most likely and then all the puppies DNA's, and the extra fee AKC charges for dual sire and the interpretation fee for the DNA, and many more progesterones to do the surgical by...


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Thanks... I get there can be valid reasons for dual sires and having done the DNA thing myself I can see how costly this type of breeding could be if done correctly. But not sure why a breeder would go through all this to sell the bitch with pups in utero? Alternate theory is the bitch owner had two males and wasn't paying attention  So guessing the expense of sorting the parentage of the puppies falls to the person purchasing the bitch. That must have been quite a purchase contract! 

Considering Molly thinks the AKC/OFA dates are wrong I'm not sure she received or understands the whole story about her dog (whoever that is) bloodlines. Either way this boy... Bear should not be producing puppies in my opinion.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

The dates aren't wrong. It'd be unbelievable that that many people got the dates wrong on OFA. And on k9data. 
It's not like one person did all of the inputting and certainly the owners of the animals involved know their dog's DOB. But I suppose she needs to believe all those are mistakes so she doesn't believe her dog was sired by a puppy.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

I actually went and looked at their website... posted all of their dogs have OFA clearances. What a scam, so sorry people believe the site vs. the truth. Even the ones that do have clearances don't have all 4 and there are so many failed elbows as well as some failed hips. Really sad.

As for Molly, I'm happy you have a loving dog and doing such good works with him. But I'm reminded of something my dogs opthamologist said after telling him the breeder claimed my dog was the only one out of a litter of ten to have inherited eye problem. He simply smiled and asked how many have been tested.


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