# advice please



## coppers-mom

Here I am again with my old boy's problems.

He has a recurring skin infection and various old dog problems. His current skin infection did not respond to cephalexin so he was put on clavamox (375mg 2X day) last week. It is better, but not completely cleared up. 

At the same visit I told the vet that there is some dark staining at the end of his sheath. I thought it might be a bladder infection (he's had those before). The vet thinks the dark coloring is from his urine being concentrated due to the heat. Has anyone heard of that? He did not have a temperature and shows no signs of feeling poorly. Vet said the clavamox would clear up any infection if any was present.

We went back today and he got another week of clavamox. Same dose. His skin is better and I got some chlorhexadine shampoo that has helped before (I had run out) so I am hoping that is now on the way to being resolved.

Unfortunately when he did his business this morning I noticed blood in his stool. He is on rimadyl. He started it in Feb. 25mgs 2X a day and had to be upped to 50mg 2X a day a couple of months ago. This is the first time I have noticed blood in his stool.

The vet did not check for blood - just asked me if it was bright red or dark. He said it is from the rimadyl and to take him off a few days and start giving copper gastroguard for his GI tract. He expects copper to stay on that the rest of his life to help reduce the ill effects from NSAIDS.

I don't feel good about the dark urine around his sheath even though I have been reassured. It was dark again today.
I am worried about the blood in his stool even though it didn't seem to be too bad it was definitely evident. I can only hope the gastroguard will enable him to start back on something for his arthritis. He cannot get up without medication at this point in his life.

If it isn't better by next week, I'll schedule a visit with the specialists. I'd sure like some advice and info from anyone who has an opinion.


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## coppers-mom

I'm a worry wart. Should I wait and see how he does for another week of antibiotics and the gastroguard or should I try to get to see the specialists tomorrow?

It's sad to pay your vet so much money (3 dogs, 5 cats and 2 horses) and have lost your faith in them.


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## GoldenCamper

I posted this in your orthopedic specialist thread, time to give it some serious thought.



GoldenCamper said:


> I found a couple IVAS certified acupuncturist vets that I think are near you.
> 
> http://www.sodvm.com/aboutus.htm (Aiken,SC)
> 
> http://www.holisticvetsc.com/acupuncture.html (Travelers rest,SC)
> 
> Hope that helps...



Sorry Copper is going through this, Tucker went through the same thing with NSAID's and wound up with a more serious issue having to be fed home cooked meals. We tried the acupuncture and it worked for us.


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## coppers-mom

thanks Steve, I had forgotten.:doh:
There is one pretty close to me and I will call them tomorrow. Ooops - it is the one you listed in Traveler's rest. They have a confusing array of offerings. I'll schedule an initial visit and see what they suggest.


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## GoldenCamper

I hope they can get you in quick, with the Rimadyl wearing off and all. Here is a bio about the lady that does it, she has been doing it a long time.

http://www.holisticvetsc.com/fowler.html


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## BeauShel

Can you try the metacam instead of the rimadayl if the acupuncture doesnt work? I know Beau had problems with the rimadyl and we took him off it and he did better on the metacam for awhile then we put him on the tramadol. I will say a prayer for Copper too.


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## MillysMom

I'm sending good thoughts and prayers your way.


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## 58loosy

That is really to bad about the skin infections, I went through that w/ my springer, it would come back. We changed his food to wellness simple solution salmon and his skin cleared up, the vet said his fur has never looked better. My vet didn't want to keep giving him antibiotics. I have heard Riamadyl has alot of bad side effects, look that up on internet, do you think maybe the blood in the stool could be from that? I have used metacam for pain, my springer hurt his neck. Sending prayers to Copper.


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## Dallas Gold

I'm so sorry Copper is dealing with these issues. I hope you can get some answers soon.

Regarding the dark urine--why hasn't your vet done a sterile urine analysis??? We routinely did this for Barkley when his urine showed some protein in it. It can really help you figure out some things. It's possible the urine is dark because there is blood or blood pigment in it. 

I live in the heat and don't know if that is the cause of all concentrated urine. We make sure the dog(s) have plenty of water and I would think hydration would eliminate that issue.

As far as the blood in the stool, would a sonogram/radiograph be in order just to rule anything internal out? Barkley's stools got very dark right before his cancer diagnosis (don't want to worry you though).

Also, is he still on duralactin? If so is it possible that is causing some issues?


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## paula bedard

I have no helpful advice to offer, just sending along a prayer. Hopefully these are easily remedied issues. My Bridge boy Sam did not do well on Rimadyl, it caused bloody stools. He actually did best on coated aspirin. I gave him tramadol on only very bad days...which, luckily, he did not have many of.


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## coppers-mom

Thanks everybody.
1. Steve - I'll call the holistic vet and get him an appointment. We'll see what they recommend.

2. 58loosy - Skin issues; he has his spleen removed 1.5 years ago and this started after. It might just be an age thing too. He has had pancreatitis twice and is on Science Diet WD. I'm afraid to change his food since changing is what triggered the last pancreatitis attack and that almost killed him. Guess we're in a bit of a catch 22.

3.Dallas Gold - that is what I am worried about with the dark urine - a tumor and/or cancer. It doesn't seem like something that could be from heat to me. Copper drinks quite a lot and shows no other signs of dehydration. If I want a urine test, I have to take him to the specialists. That was one big reason I wanted to know if anyone had heard of that. I have to have a referral usually and it takes a little while to get in. It is especially worrisome with the blood in his stools. I've never noticed dark staining around his sheath before even in the middle of summer.

4. Beaushel/Paula - I asked about switching him and they said if he is having trouble with Rimadyl, he will have trouble with any of the NSAIDS. He has tried Deramaxx and that might have been a contributing factor to the last pancreatitis. Tramadol makes him so dopey, I'm afraid he will fall down and really hurt himself. I could insist on a switch to Metacam and will if he doesn't stop bleeding.

He is only taking rimadyl, antibiotic and gastroalieve (I got it wrong before) right now. I took him off all other supplements a month ago at the specialists recommendation in order to have less variables to consider. and a the moment, he isn't taking Rimadyl. I will restart him Friday or Saturday if the bleeding is no longer evident.

Side note: I took him to the ortho guy again last month because Copper was limping on his front right leg. They said they could not find a specific reason so it must be arthritis. Copper's dose of rimadyl was increased at that time. I think I found the reason and it isn't the big lipoma in his shoulder joint - he has a growth between his toes on that foot. I thought it looked like a foot/lower leg problem. I doubt we can do anything about the growth, but I will have it checked too. At least I think I know the answer to that problem. the increase in rimadyl probably won't help with that so I'll take him back down to a lower dose and see how he does.:crossfing


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## GoldenCamper

coppers-mom said:


> It's sad to pay your vet so much money (3 dogs, 5 cats and 2 horses) and have lost your faith in them.


I am sorry for your frustration. If you want a urine test you have to take him to a specialist? that doesn't sound right. Hand your vet a cup of Copper pee and tell him to send it off to a lab for goodness sake..geez.



coppers-mom said:


> I asked about switching him and they said if he is having trouble with Rimadyl, he will have trouble with any of the NSAIDS.


I disagree, not a very educated or open minded view IMHO. Every dog is a individual and will react differently to any number of NSAID's. If you do try a different one, give Copper's system a 7-10 day break before trying another and watch for side effects.



coppers-mom said:


> He has had pancreatitis twice and is on Science Diet WD.


FWIW, Tucker was on Science diet ID for a bit and he licked his forearms so much some hair is missing and he pooped out hairballs. Maybe the food might have something to do with Copper's skin problems? Hard to say. I think a home cooked diet would work wonders for Copper, it has worked wonders for Tucker, another thing to consider doing. Just simple stuff for a few weeks, chicken rice etc., no need to worry about proper balance of minerals/ vitamins in that short of time. You mention he has had Pancreatic problems, and although he does not have EPI, this website has a ton of useful information that may be of help to you. http://www.epi4dogs.com/apps/forums/



coppers-mom said:


> He is only taking rimadyl, antibiotic and gastroalieve (I got it wrong before) right now.


I tried to Google that, had no luck, but did with the aforementioned Gastroguard. Used to help with stomach ulcers? My vet also asked about the color of the stools, whether red or black, but I brought a sample anyway just in case of worms or Giardia etc, nothing conclusive came back. If I remember correctly, red is indicative of a small/lower intestine problem. Black would mean the problem is further up in the esophagus/stomach.

Sorry for the long post, can you tell I share in your frustration? I wish you the best with your Copper boy, thoughts and prayers sent of course. You know what is in his best interest and I know you will do the best for him, whatever you think that may be. Give him a hug for me.


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## Dallas Gold

I'm still wrapping my head around the fact your vet won't do a urine culture. That's the first thing they do with my boy(s). I hope you can get into the specialist soon. 

What does the growth in the paw look like? Is it possible it could be something more than a lipoma? Can you post a photo? I don't want to worry you but I learned that some growths can be cancer (cutaneous hemangio or melanoma)....I really hope that isn't true, but just in case I'd get it checked out pronto. 

I'm frustrated with you as well.


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## FlyingQuizini

Have they done blood to see how his organ function is?

I'd second the Matacam over long-term Rimadyl. Accupuncture is great, too.


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## hotel4dogs

oh no, I'm so sorry to hear about Copper. I wouldn't wait, I'd see the specialist. Our spleenless boys have so little immune system, waiting isn't good.
Sending healing thoughts and prayers your way. Be sure to let me know what the specialist says.


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## hotel4dogs

has he been checked for demodex mange, the scourge of dogs with no spleen? That would explain the recurring skin infections....


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## rappwizard

Sorry to hear about Copper too; I know with any NSAID that is upsetting the GI system, if there is bleeding, don't delay in checking it out--my Jake at the Bridge is a deramaxx victim.

Also, I agree with the poster who wrote that if one NSAID doesn't work, there are hundreds of others--that's practically a direct quote from my vet. Hugs to Copper--I hope he feels well real soon--he has the sweetest looking face--I sure do love the ol' ones.


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## 58loosy

I would make my own meals for him like you said the science diet has alot of corn in it that he could be allergic to. Don't forget to look up Rimadyl on internet, my vet won't use it, too many issues w/ it. Metacam or something else would be better. I am praying you get some improvement. He has such a sweet face how old is he? I love the white faces when they get older.


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## Finn's Fan

Take your vet business elsewhere. For a vet not to do a urine culture in his office is absurd. I would be concerned about that concentrated urine, too, so if it's a specialist you need to get a culture done, then I'd make the appointment. Also, and this would send me screaming from that vet, to say that all NSAIDs will create the same reaction in a dog is bordering on malpractice. I'm sorry that poor Copper is having issues, but I don't think your current vet is capable of getting to the bottom of them. Give your sweet guy a gentle pat from me, please.


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## coppers-mom

58loosy said:


> He has such a sweet face how old is he? I love the white faces when they get older.


I got Copper from a shelter 5.75 years ago after the second call from them. He'd been there for about 6 weeks and was out of time. He was already getting gray at that time so I am guessing about 12 - 13????

Steve - the gastroguard is for ulcers. It is what I got for my horse:doh:. I'll have to doublecheck the stomach calming medicine and see what it is. I thought it was Gastroalieve or Gastrolieve. Senility is sad. I can't remember things.

His regular vet says a "pee sample" will be contaminated so they have to take the urine from the bladder with a needle. The specialist does that.

The growth on his foot is between his toes. It is hard and is not a lipoma - probably not an adenoma either. It might be a "bad" one. I'll have his surgeon/orthopedic specialist check that and his internal specialist check his bladder.

Good news is no blood in his stools yesterday. He did not need to increase the rimadyl since his new limping is due to the growth and not arthritis. We'll go back down and see how he does.

I have a call in to the specialist to schedule an appointment with the surgeon/ortho guy and internal specialist. I am not sure if his dark sheath is from discolored urine or the doggone skin problem now tht I looked really closely. Maybe both?????? I'll see if a picture will attach. If not, I'll attach it later. Pooh - if it is bladder, he needs to see one vet and if skin a different one. I'll go with the internal specialist I think.

Rappwizard- I remember about Deramaxx causing your boy to die. I am so very, very sorry. You wrote me about that in September when Copper came down with pancreatitis 5 days after starting Deramaxx. I have refused to consider it since.

The first pic is the tip of his sheath and the second one is of one of the irritated places on his skin. It is much better than last week, but still itchy. This is after 8 days on antibiotics and 2 baths with chlorhexadine shampoo (Duoxo I think).


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## hotel4dogs

wow, the tip of Toby's sheath looks like that, too (this is freaky!!) but I'm ignoring it because he has freckles EVERYWHERE. I just assumed it was more dark freckles! Are they raised? toby's aren't, just dark.


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## coppers-mom

Toby and Copper are definitely twins. The dark areas are slightly raised and I believe that area is very itchy. Copper has been "bike pedaling" his back feet for 3 weeks now and it seems to be better, but not well.

He has dark areas all underneath. Some have been there for years and some have come up since he started getting these skin infections. The discoloration does not always go away once he is "cured". Some are flat (I think those are freckles) and some are slightly raised. Kind of like a mole on a person. His sheath did not have these dark areas until recently so I think it is due to the skin problems. there is some dark hair at the tip as well, but I am leaning towards it being a skin/yeast infection from that area staying wet.

He has an appointment with the ortho/surgeon and internal specialist tuesday. That is the earliest both are available. Now that I know the limping is from this growth in his foot, that is the most worrisome. He was holding his paw up today and did not want to walk on it. I just don't know if they can take if off. It must not have been as big when he was examined by the ortho vet last month.

His blood test at that time was excellent. He shows no signs of feeling poorly other than itching and limoing on that paw.:crossfing


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## Dallas Gold

Barkley had pigmented skin and freckles everywhere, but those look more like moles/growths and slightly raised, not freckles. I'd definitely get them checked out ASAP if not sooner (immediately) just to rule something nasty out. Barkley's black areas increased during his chemotherapy (and after his splenectomy) but none of them were raised. 

I don't have a clue about the skin irritation. Poor Copper boy. 

I understand why Copper would need a sterile sample from the bladder, but....our regular vet does it routinely--what is your vet's issue with doing it himself? I thought it was standard procedure for non-specialist vets!


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## coppers-mom

the specialists office called and the ortho/surgeon has an opening at 10:00 am tomorrow. I took the appointment. I'm quite worried about the growth in his paw. it feels hard and seems to be located in the lower joints of his two outer toes.

I will also ask the ortho/surgeon who he thinks should look at Copper for the dark hair and skin around his sheath and if it might be a UTI or whatever. 

The oncologist is also the dermatologist and we could most likely see her (or an associate) tomorrow as well. Needless to say, we have spent time on that side of the building too. Luckily his biopsies have all been benign previously. 

His internal specialist is working in Asheville this week so we can't see her. It's never easy huh?


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## GoldenCamper

Glad you could get in earlier for the growth on his paw to get looked at  I hope it is something that can be dealt with :crossfing It is just so disheartening to see our guys not being themselves.


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## Dallas Gold

Oh boy, I'm relieved you are seeing some specialists tomorrow! I hope you get good news. We'll keep Copper in our prayers.


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## coppers-mom

I was looking up "skin plaques" in an effort to try to explain what these dark areas on Copper's abdomen and sheath look like and I found what might be wrong with his paw. It doesn't sound great, but better than cancer which is what I was thinking:crossfing This also ties in with the recurring skin infections and dark skin plaques. He also has a cyst and adenoma on his head that are chronically infected and seeping.

_











































































































































































































Interdigital furunculosis, dog _
_




























_Interdigital furuncles, often incorrectly referred to as interdigital cysts, are painful nodular lesions located in the interdigital webs of dogs. Histologically, these lesions represent areas of nodular pyogranulomatous inflammation—they are almost never cystic.

Demodicosis (_ Mange in Sheep and Goats_) may be a primary cause of interdigital furunculosis. (Does this sound familiar Barb???)

Clinical Findings and Lesions:Early lesions of interdigital furunculosis may appear as focal or generalized areas of erythema and papules in the webbing of the feet that, if left untreated, rapidly develop into single or multiple nodules. Interdigital furuncles are most commonly found on the dorsal aspect of the paw, but may also be found ventrally. 

Furuncles are usually painful, and the dog may be obviously lame on the affected foot (or feet) and lick and bite at the lesions. 

Diagnosis:This is often based on clinical signs alone. The most useful diagnostic tests include skin scrapings for Demodex mites, impression smears, or fine-needle aspirates to confirm the presence of an inflammatory infiltrate. Unusual or recurrent lesions should be excised for histopathologic examination. Solitary lesions may require surgical exploration to find and remove foreign bodies such as grass awns. 

Treatment:Interdigital furuncles respond best to a combination of topical and systemic therapy. Cephalexin (20 mg/kg, PO, tid, or 30 mg/kg, PO, bid) is recommended for 4-6 wk of initial therapy. However, because the lesions are pyogranulomatous, it may be difficult for antibiotics to penetrate them; therefore, >8 wk of systemic antibiotic therapy may be required for lesions to completely resolve.

Topical foot soaks in warm water with or without an antibiotic solution (eg, chlorhexidine) and the application of mupiricin ointment are recommended. Antihistamines given for the first several weeks of treatment may partially alleviate pruritus, if present. Glucocorticoids are contraindicated. Chronic, recurrent interdigital furunculosis is most often caused by inappropriate antibiotic therapy (too short, wrong dose/dosage, wrong drug), concurrent corticosteroid administration, demodicosis, an anatomic predisposition, or a foreign body reaction to keratin.


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## rappwizard

Wouldn't it be so much better if it turns out that some benedryl to help with the skin problems and some skin soaks is what he needs--not all these other meds? I sure hope so--fingers crossed and I'll try to cross Mac's paws for Copper.


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## coppers-mom

rappwizard said:


> Wouldn't it be so much better if it turns out that some benedryl to help with the skin problems and some skin soaks is what he needs--not all these other meds? I sure hope so--fingers crossed and I'll try to cross Mac's paws for Copper.


I am trying not to get my hopes up, but I am hoping anyway.:crossfing Thank goodness I have an appointment in the morning now. I would have a heck of a time waiting until next week.

The area between his toes is also discolored like the plaques on his abdomen. He's also been chewing and licking them to the point he developed a lick granuloma on his right front lower leg. It is almost healed now.
Well, I'm jumping the gun but I sure hope this is related to his splenectomy and skin issues that occured after that.


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## Karen519

*Coppers-Mom*

CoppersMom

Wish I had some wisdom to offer, but I don't, but you'd better believe I will be praying for him and you and your appointment tomorrow.


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## coppers-mom

Karen519 said:


> CoppersMom
> 
> Wish I had some wisdom to offer, but I don't, but you'd better believe I will be praying for him and you and your appointment tomorrow.


Thanks Karen. That means a lot and has made all the difference before.


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## hotel4dogs

I'm so glad you got in earlier to see the specialists! Will be hoping and praying for good news, be sure to let us know just as soon as you can. I feel so connected to Copper!


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## coppers-mom

hotel4dogs said:


> I'm so glad you got in earlier to see the specialists! Will be hoping and praying for good news, be sure to let us know just as soon as you can. I feel so connected to Copper!


Toby and Copper seem to share some major psychic karma. These boys must be twins who were separated at birth.

Do you suppose Copper has some form of demodectic mange/mites too????? That was mentioned as a frequent cause of the skin plaques and furuncles. He just can't stand to have Toby one-up him.
They even have freckles in similar places.:


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## coppers-mom

We're back.
The ortho/surgeon did a very thorough exam on Copper. We walked and trotted up and down the hall so he could observe Copper's gait. His front end frequently sort of trots while his back end walks like frankenstein. He also manipulated every joint the poor old boy has. Copper made a grimace a couple of times, but no really strong reaction that indicated pain. Sometimes I wish he wouldn't be so tolerant and stoic. We could get a better idea of what is going on.

Suspected possible neuro issue which turned out to not be definitely diagnosed today. He said he didn't think a ???? test was recommended since Copper would not be a candidate for extensive treeatment due to his age and other issues.
The lump in his toes is a "cyst/lesion" caused by the skin infection. He didn't use the word furuncle, but that does sound like what it is.
He thinks the limping is from the shoulder area and not that, so Copper had 3 or 4 more x-rays. They showed an increase in arthritis and involvement/disease of the biceps ligaments, but no evidence of a mass or definitive diagnosis.

He changed him to a course of prednisone for the next month and then a recheck. No rimadyl. If the steriods work, we might use them instead for however long we get. There are dangers to using the steroids, but there are dangers with any drugs so we are going to try it with an eagle eye on his GI tract. If they don't work, we will try a different NSAID. Some quality time is what we are hoping and aiming for and if the meds make his time shorter, I think that is what he would want if he could have the time be better.

He thinks the reglar vet should take care of the skin issue. Pooh - we're getting nowhere fast with that. I'll add in some foot soaking with chlorhexadine and more medicated baths. Also a change in antibiotics if he is not completely better after this course of clavamox.

He wasn't impressed with the gastralieve (made by Butler) and recommended he start pepcid (famatodine). I have some here since he has had it before.

So. No scary growths evident; Skin infection not resolved at this time; bladder infection or lack thereof not determined, but he said the current course of antibiotics would take care of one if present. He also said he is not qualified to diagnose the skin issue so I should seek a dermatologist if it does not clear up. The oncologist was great about helping his skin infection that had caused a huge mass in his chest last november so she is probably next on tap.

I'm sorry I'm so late getting on. We got home around 1:45pm but I fell asleep in the basement. I got a call at 11:30 last night to come help a friend whose horse was colicing. We had to keep IVs going all night (20 liters total!). I took Copper since we were about an hour from home and I thought we might be there all night. I drove there and then had to meet the vet another 15 - 20 miles down the road to get 3 additional bags of IV fluids. Poor doggone Copper would not stay in the nice cool house with friend's DH - he insisted on staying in the barn and fretting because he couldn't come in the stall with me. (Friend's DH had had oral surgery and was not real functional to help with horse or she would not have called me).
We left at 9:00am to make it to the vets. The horse seems fine and was doing well by 4:00am or so, but we kept giving her IVs as told. I fell asleep in the exam room while waiting for the vet.:no:


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## Dallas Gold

I'm glad you got to see the ortho guy at least today. By the way, we were required to have 2 weeks off between the rimadyl and starting Barkley's Temeril-P for his allergies (that has prednisone in it). My guess is there can be some issues with having both in a dog's system at the same time, but I don't know what to look for.

Barkley could not handle large doses of prednisone--he became a wild crazy dog, moving full Vittle Vaults across the house and doing a ton of counter surfing and trash can dumping. Hide your trash can and make sure nothing bad is on the countertops!! 

I hope the antibiotic clears up the bladder, but you are wise to have it looked at. Since you saw the oncologist earlier, is it possible you can call directly and schedule, instead of waiting for a referral? One of the specialists Barkley saw in 2004 told us we could do that, and we did in 2006! 

Get some rest! You are worn out! Give Copper a big old hug from his Dallas friends!


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## coppers-mom

They didn't mention waiting. I thought we should start tomorrow. I'll leave a message, but may not hear since it almost the weekend.:uhoh:

I have to work tomorrow since I took today off between being up all night and the vet's until 12:30. Ugh. Oh well, that's what friends are for.

I should be able to go directly to the oncologist since this is an issue she has seen him for before.


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## Dallas Gold

Maybe you should ask the question about the waiting period and what issues might happen if you don't clear the rimadyl from the system in the Health section and someone will chime in about it. Not everyone looks here (though I don't know why because we all know the seniors are so cool!).


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## coppers-mom

Dallas Gold said:


> Not everyone looks here (though I don't know why because we all know the seniors are so cool!).


I know, but it has always been my favorite. I don't know much about puppies, but I can sometimes help out with older dog issues. I also love to see their faces. All my rescues have been older because most people won't take them. I understand since they tend to cost more in general vet wise and you probably won't have them as long, but they sure do tug at my heart.:smooch: You are right - they are so cool!


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## Karen519

*Coppers Mom*

Coppers Mom

So glad you got to see the ortho specialist with Copper and So sorry you were so TIRED!!

YOU certainly are an AMAZING FRIEND-God Bless you for that and I'm SURE THEY love you for it!!


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## fostermom

I am glad you got in to see the specialist. I am glad you got him off from the rimadyl. That was my first thought when I saw your post (sorry, I just saw it for the first time tonight).


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## goldencontriever3

I am so sorry to hear Copper is having a rough time. I am glad you got to see the specialist. I hope the changes will have him feeling better. 

I know your frustrations with the skin issues and bladder infection. We went through a six month period with Tasha. I think we tried every antibiotic ever made. I did take a new vet to solve the problem. He did do a sterile urine draw and it showed she did not have an infection. Maybe getting a new look from another vet will help Copper.

We will keep you both in our prayers. Take care of yourself and give Copper a big hug from us!


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## rappwizard

Looks like you have some answers to some questions--still that skin problem though--hopefully you will find a vet that can help you get to the bottom of that puzzle. Hugs to Copper--he was such a trooper to be by your side as you helped your friend and the horse. The ol' ones are so special.


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## coppers-mom

rappwizard said:


> Looks like you have some answers to some questions--still that skin problem though--hopefully you will find a vet that can help you get to the bottom of that puzzle. Hugs to Copper--he was such a trooper to be by your side as you helped your friend and the horse. The ol' ones are so special.


I soaked his feet in a chlorhexadine/oatmeal solution this evening. I'm hoping it will clear up the lesions on his right foot and help prevent any problems in his left.:crossfing I still think it is at least part of what is making him limp. I'll increase his baths with the chlorhexadine shampoo and spray it on the lesions/skin plaques too. Hopefully the antibiotics will help as well. He did get put on some special antibiotic last november for skin infections by the oncologist so that is in my back pocket too.

That sweet trooper is sooooooo clingy now that he is older.:uhoh: I wish he would have stayed in the nice cool house, but he would not without me! Poor baby had to switch off between sleeping in the SUV and pacing and panting outside the stall. My horses are very good with my dogs, but my friend's horse might have stepped on him. She's not mean - just not as aware of him and she was in pain.

Thanks everybody for the good thoughts, prayers and advice.


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## Dallas Gold

I'm starting to wonder if some dogs without spleens can even handle rimadyl. We were never able to pin down the exact cause of Barkley's skin and fur issues after his splenectomy, but we narrowed it to 3 possibilities: high pollens, the chemotherapy and the rimadyl. We added the rimadyl to that list only after I went into the Pfizer website, pulled up the patient information for it and saw that one of the possible adverse reactions was allergic skin issues and itching! That was about the same time the vet wanted me to take him off of the rimadyl for 2 weeks so we could start the Temeril-P antihistamine/prednisone combo pill. Barkley's itching/scratching/black spot growth got noticeably better as soon as we did that. 

In thinking about it after the fact maybe there is a connection between the rimadyl and Barkley not having a spleen, like your Copper. I'm sure there are a lot of spleenless dogs that do well on it, but perhaps for those like ours they have these issues.


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## Dallas Gold

One more thing: I googled combining rimadyl and prednisone and there are a lot of posts on other dog forums saying don't combine them--that if both are in the system at the same time it can increase GI ulcers and other issues. I know you want to give Copper relief but I'd definitely check with the prescribing ortho vet first about waiting a few days or a week at least just so the Rimadyl is out of Copper's system.


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## hotel4dogs

I'm glad to hear the mass on his foot turned out to be benign!! That was something that was really worrying me.
As far as the skin infections, I would probably see the dermatologist. Our boys without spleens just have such a time fighting off these infections. If they haven't done a deep scrape and/or hair biopsy for demodex, you really can't rule it out. The anti-parasitic T-cells are produced by the spleen. 
Toby has been on Rimadyl for about 8 months. So far (knock wood) hasn't had a problem with it. I think it is more of an issue for dogs with liver problems than without spleens, because it's metabolized in the liver. 
Toby sends hugs and good thoughts to Copper. We're having a heck of a time getting the upper hand on the demodex this time around, so it's probably Toby's fault that Copper is having ongoing skin issues


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## hotel4dogs

ohhh, one more thing. IF you can get in to see a dermatologist SOON, don't start the prednisone until you rule out demodex. 
Prednisone causes demodex to grow like wild. It's why we can't give it to Toby, even with his pain and/or neurological issues.


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## paula bedard

I've been keeping an eye on this thread and sending along prayers for Copper...and Barb's Toby. My Sam had a few if the same issues, but not until the very end, so I did not become as acquainted with them as you've had to. I hope you are able to find as much quality time as possible with your sweet boy...and Barb with Toby.

I agree with Dallas Gold too, our Senior Goldies Rock!


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## coppers-mom

I think that last time Toby and Copper did their psychic communication, Copper was the instigator on an ear infection so I guess it is okay if toby is sending skin infection vibes this time.

Copper has been off Rimadyl since tuesday/ July 13th. I did not start the prednisone this morning based on the comments on here. I'll wait at least a week and longer if he is still doing okay getting up.:crossfing

I am going to see if he can go to the oncologist next week about his skin issues. She did a great job last time and is the closest thing to a local dermatolgist I can find. One does come up from Charleston, SC once a month, but sooner is better.: I'll ask her if she can check for demodex. Shrug- why not. he and toby share everything else.

he's still his happy self and I am so glad for that. he is now taking Clavamox and the stomach medicine only (made by Butler - Gatralieve). He will finish the Clavamox in 4 days(that will have been 2 weeks worth) and he will start Cephalexin at that time if this doesn't work (and it doesn't seem to be).

Do you think he could have a low dose aspirin a day while we are waiting to get his GI tract improved? There has not been any visible blood in his stool for a few days although it could be evident microscopically.


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## GoldenCamper

coppers-mom said:


> Do you think he could have a low dose aspirin a day while we are waiting to get his GI tract improved? There has not been any visible blood in his stool for a few days although it could be evident microscopically.


*NO! *Aspirin is a NSAID too and can slough away the stomach lining just like the others!

That's what Tucker's Ortho vet told me when I asked why I had to wait 7-10 days to start the Metacam. The stomach lining needs to repair itself. I told him there was no blood in the stool and he told me that it did not mean damage was not already done in there. He also told me people are mistaken if they think aspirin is safe, he has seen dogs die from it just like the other NSAID's.

I am so glad Copper is his happy self  You are lucky you do not see any blood, took me 2 weeks of cooking for him for the blood to stop. His system was so screwed up he couldn't handle kibble.


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## coppers-mom

GoldenCamper said:


> *NO! *Aspirin is a NSAID too and can slough away the stomach lining just like the others!
> 
> That's what Tucker's Ortho vet told me when I asked why I had to wait 7-10 days to start the Metacam. The stomach lining needs to repair itself. I told him there was no blood in the stool and he told me that it did not mean damage was not already done in there. He also told me people are mistaken if they think aspirin is safe, he has seen dogs die from it just like the other NSAID's.
> 
> I am so glad Copper is his happy self  You are lucky you do not see any blood, took me 2 weeks of cooking for him for the blood to stop. His system was so screwed up he couldn't handle kibble.


I'm glad I asked then. I knew my friends would come through for me and Copper.


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## GoldenCamper

It is really tough not to give them anything  Tucker was not happy at all waiting to start something else. Does Copper show the wax & wane type of effect with his arthritis? Tucker would have a string of good days followed by a few bad ones. If Tucker gets hurt again I'm doomed, he can't have any of the NSAID's anymore. Good thing the acupuncture has worked for him!


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## coppers-mom

Acupuncture is next on my list! I have money squirreled away for emergency needs. Well, mostly Copper so far and that counts.

His arthritis started out slow, but progressed fairly rapidly I think. He does okay once he gets up, but getting up is really tough for him. His hips were the first to get bad and now his shoulders are being affected too.

Once he gets up and steadied, he does well and heads off with tail awagging. He can usually get up by himself with some effort, but this morning he couldn't. I'm not sure there wasn't something on the floor that his front paw was slipping on, but I hope that was the problem.:crossfing He's only been off Rimadyl 5 days and we need to wait another 5 at least right?


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## GoldenCamper

coppers-mom said:


> He's only been off Rimadyl 5 days and we need to wait another 5 at least right?


Best to ask the vet that knows him and his history the best. :scratchch:gotme: Hope you can get a hold of someone Monday.:crossfing


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## coppers-mom

I'll get in touch with his ortho/surgeon vet Monday about the rimadyl/prednisone questons.

He had to be helped getting up when I got home tonight. My husband said he had been wandering all over the yard with him today. I wonder if he knows I will help him so he waits for me when I am here? I swept the floor in case it was slippery from the gold bond powder I put on his paw earlier.

Anyway, that means I will move the acupuncture visit to next week if I can. He needs help sooner rather than later. It's a good thing I have my "lunch money" hidden in the closet. I think DH would have a fit about an acupuncturist so it shall be our secret.


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## GoldenCamper

I don't know if I had given you this link in the past, tons of useful info, also says to wait at least a week preferably longer when going from a NSAID to Prednisone.

http://www.dogaware.com/health/chronicpain.html

Wandering all over the yard may have been a bit much for him? I know I had to set strict boundaries for Tucker. It's a catch 22, to little exercise and they lose muscle mass. To much and it increases inflammation and they take a step back. It can be a tricky balancing act to get anywhere.


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## coppers-mom

I'll get him to take it easier. DH was busy doing some chores and Copper insists on following. He won't even stay in the front yard if you go to the back and that is up a hill. I'm usually home on the weekends and he is busy staying close to me since the umbilical cord doesn't seem to be as long as it used to be. He'll take it easy this week.

I washed him in chlorhexadine shampoo yesterday, towel dried him and then put a chlorhexadine rinse on him. He seems much more comfortable this morning.:crossfing I went ahead and switched to the cephalexin Saturday since the clavamox wasn't clearing it up and that has helped too.

The dermatologist won't be able to see him for at least a month since they only come here on a monthly basis. The specialists said they will have to send his records (that will be BIG box:doh and set up an appointment.

I have a message in to the orthopedic vet about when to start the prednisone. I expect a call back this morning. I gave him a tramadol last night and it totally trashed him out. He slept soundly though so maybe that was a good thing.

Thanks for the link. I will check that out and take all the info into consideration. If he can get an appointment with the accupuncturist this week, I will definitely wait until after that to start the prednisone.


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## coppers-mom

No call from the ortho vet yet, but we do have an appointment with the acupuncturist/holistic vet on Thursday at 10:30am:crossfing so I won't start the prednisone for now.

The initial visit and herbals coud be $250 so I will raid my closet stash since DH has a problem with us trying a vet who specializes in eastern medicine. I hope it works!

They want his records from all his vets.:doh: I'm not even sure how many he has. 8? AT last it is only 4 offices. I guess I should get his records from the ER too.

She said him lacking a spleen will have a big impact on his treatment. I think I forgot to mention the bouts of pancreatitis. She wants his records for biopsies, skin infection (especially since he has one now), ortho evaluation....... It sure sounds like she will be thorough and will have a lot of reading material on my old guy.

I love his old sweet self.: He does seem much more comfortable today with the skin issues at least.:doh:


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## Karen519

*Coppers Mom*

CoppersMom

Praying for Copper and you.


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## hotel4dogs

Hoping Copper is having a good day today. Toby overdid it in the yard yesterday and is very stiff and sore today, poor boy....


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## GoldenCamper

Glad to hear Copper is going to acupuncture this week. I like what I am reading about this lady. How she wants all the records, sounds very thorough. How she has been a vet for over 30 yrs and got into the holistic side of things years ago like Tucker's vet. I believe the combination of eastern and western medicine can truly help your boy. I was still a little apprehensive about the eastern side of things even though over the years I have personally known dogs that have benefited from it. I can understand your DH's view, the 1st time I had Tucker in for it the vet was telling me of the couple's that come in and once he begins explaining things how all the DH's would roll their eyes.

I kept an open mind and it happened I saw results within the first day, hope it goes that way for Copper. I am sure she told you it can take a few visits. Glad he feels more comfortable with his skin issues today 

I just got off the phone with my vet and finally remembered to ask him the name of the massage technique he taught me. To be specific the one I am using is called Tui Fa (pronounced twee-fah) which is in the same family of Tui Na (twee-nah) massage. Something to ask about when you go this week. Here is a link to a brief description of Tui Na.

http://www.holisticjunction.com/categories/HPD/chinese-medical-massage-tui-na-practitioners.html


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## coppers-mom

I forgot that I started Copper's massage again Saturday. I have been slacking off.
that might also be why he is feeling better today. He still has trouble getting up, but he just seems more comfortable overall.

thanks for the link. I will check it out and try it on him too.


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## rappwizard

I had an excellent experience with acupuncture with my second golden, Alli, and here's hoping that Copper's is just as productive. My vet also practices eastern and western medicine. I took Alli to the vet when she couldn't jump up on the bed anymore. My vet was able to determine that Alli had wrenched her back when we had gone tracking--she gave her a couple of acupuncture treatments and adjustments and she taught me how to massage her and also warm her up before we went tracking and she was as good as new.

I now massage Mac after a long day of fun and she loves it! I massage her on the grooming table and she jumps up on the table to have her special time with me. I hope the treatments work for Copper and that they make him feel better. I am a big believer in eastern medicine and what it has to offer and I think you'll be pleasantly surprised too. Let us know!


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## goldencontriever3

I am glad Copper is feeling a bit better today. I hope he continues to improve and that the acupuncture helps. Give him a big hug from us.


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## coppers-mom

We had our visit with the holistic vet this morning. It had mixed results.
Part of that is my fault. The specialist couldn't fax his records because it is so very many pages and included a CD of his x-rays. I did not get them to this vet prior to our visit because I could not get there when they were open. The vets are an hour apart and an hour from my house so an hour to get to one, an hour to get to another and another hour to get home.
Just too busy this week. Copper is a priority, but I have to keep my job to pay his vet bills you know?

She was dismayed by the amount of pathology he has and has had. 

1.Multiple types of arthritis in his shoulders and hips, something in his right shoulder (biceps muscle/ligament disease??) and a mostly healed partial ACL tear in his left hind. On friday his ortho vet also mentioned his disconnected gait. He sort of trots on front and walks like frankenstein on the rear. He suspected neurologial involvement. I did agree to x-rays at that time to see if a tumor was evident on his spine and so they could get a better idea of what is going on in his shoulder. I declined an MRI due to expense and the fact that I would not consider surgery if a mass was found.
2. Multiple tumors removed from him - both inside and outside. Multiple tumors still evident and probably inside as well. Well, what do you do? He's had them removed, aspirated and biopsied. He is still just full of "things".
3. Pancreatitis history means some herbals can not be used and increases the difficulty of his care.
4. I don't believe they approved of the fact that I have a limited amount of money to spend on this. IF I see results, I'll find more money but if I don't see results $400 - $450 down the road I shall stop his treatments.

Anyway, he had a session of acupuncture, laser therapy and got 4 types of herbals for inflammation, pain, skin and ? 
She said his improvement would be slow. 
I'll take him back in the morning for another laser treatment and hope it all goes better.


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## GoldenCamper

From reading your post you sound discouraged and I don't blame you. Tucker has a bunch of lumps too and he has to lay a certain way for me to do the massage along his spine or I bump into at least 2 of them.

I hope it goes better in the morning.:crossfing I hope you notice a change soon!:crossfing:crossfing

FWIW, here is a link to a video & article on the laser thing, my vet uses the same one, but when he did it was to stimulate the needles and did not have that flashlight type head on it, but the same machine.

http://www.petthor.com/why-use-lllt-/-cold-laser-on-pets.html


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## hotel4dogs

I'm sorry it didn't go better for you. 
Sending a hug. Don't know what else to say.
Toby says hi.


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## rappwizard

Hugs to Copper and to you too. Sounds like you need one.

Hope he's at least feeling a bit better.


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## Dallas Gold

I'm sorry your visit was a mixed bag. I hope the acupuncture and laser begin to help Copper as soon as possible. I was told it could take several treatments to see improvement, but we were fortunate to see it almost immediately. 

I'd eliminate the herbs before I cut the acupuncture/laser, but that is just because of my experience with Barkley's allergies and sensitivities. We finally got a couple of herbs that both our regular vet and the holistic vet agreed on and they helped his allergies, but I don't think they helped his orthopedic issues as much as the acupuncture did. My regular vet drew the line with anything herbal that contained ground deer antler (wasting disease concerns).

Also, just because Copper has lots of issues should not be causing your holistic vet dismay! Sheesh--that's what they are in business to help! I get the feeling perhaps this isn't a good fit for you guys, but I realize how hard it is to find a holistic vet in your area. Our acupuncture vet acknowledged Barkley had tons of issues, but told me that is why she does what she does and she did her work quietly, without commenting on how bad off he was. She told me she would try to help him and we would adjust treatments as we went along to see what worked best. We knew going in there were no guarantees. We did go very often at first, then tapered down after a short time.


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## coppers-mom

This morning's visit was better. Copper had another session of laser therapy.
He might have shown some gait improvement too. It might be because I want him to and not because he is moving better, but maybe.....

He is scheduled for another laser therapy session in the morning and then laser/acupuncture next week. I did ask her to look at his paw since he immediately lifted it in an "ouch" move when he walked on the rocks in the path. She said the lesion/cyst could be causing some pain and he had it lasered as well. I dunno. We shall see.

I will also look up furuncles again and do all the treatments they recommend as far as soaking and such so maybe that will help too.

I did not have time to bathe him this morning and he was not allowed to have a bath yesterday because it would interfere with the acupuncture so he is off schedule on that. Luckily his skin infection still seems to be under control evenm though he missed his bath.:crossfing

Oh yeah - I got his cool III water/cool bed in yesterday. he likes it very much and it is sooooo much softer than the tile he prefers to sleep on. I hope it makes him feel better too.


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## GoldenCamper

I am glad Copper might be showing improvement. Odd you mentioned it, I just ordered the Cool Bed 3 this morning  Can't wait for it to come in!


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## coppers-mom

I didn't spring for the cover, just the bed and I covered it with a sheet.

Once you fill it with water you need to remove the excess air. The directions say to press towards the air holwe/vent. it is MUCH easier and effective to use a broom handle or some such item to press with than your hands. Start on the side away from the air vent and then press firmly all the way across. Have I explained it all right?????? You'll never get all that air out with your hands.:doh:

Copper is giving it two paws up. I am a little concerned that the little feist - trouble (appropriately named) will chew it, but we shall see.

Copper did start some herbals yesterday as well as the laser/acupuncture and he does seem to feel better. I hope you and Tucker are having a good day.:smooch:


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## Jleway

I will send a prayer your and Cooper's way.


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## GoldenCamper

I did not spring for the cover either, we think alike, a bed sheet is fine Thanks for the broom handle tip, I read somewhere of another person doing the same thing. Hope your feisty Trouble behaves with Copper's new bed.


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## Claire's Friend

Erin has a cool bed and loves it. Of course it has to go on top of the pink Princess bed or she won't use it. It don't have any kind of cover on hers, is that bad? She seems to like laying right on top of the cool rubber.


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## goldencontriever3

So glad Copper seems to be feeling better today. I hope each day brings a little more relief. Keeping you both in our prayers. Give Copper a big hug from us!


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## coppers-mom

Hugs will be given.

He seems a little more exuberant. I have not been able to spend much time with him today - doggone work so I have not observed him as much.

Another laser treatment in the morning and then a weekend of watching and evaluating him.:crossfing

Thanks for all the advice and good wishes.


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## hotel4dogs

Glad to hear he's feeling a bit better!!! Is his skin cleared up now, too?


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## GoldenCamper

I hope this mornings treatment went well, please give Copper a gentle hug for me! The weather this weekend is downright horrid with the heat and humidity, surprised our senior guys can move around at all in this stuff. Thank god for A/C!


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## coppers-mom

Today's visit went well. The vet had not been able to read the CD from his specialist so could not see his x-rays. I took the CD to work yesterday and managed to get some prints on 11 X 17 paper. I am very glad I did. She said his left hind stifle is pretty bad (which I knew) and it needs extra attention. He is also getting laser treatment on his right front paw since she agrees it hurts, but can't find out why. Well, none of the other vets could either and they said it didn't hurt so that is progress to me.

His front legs seem to be moving in a more controlled and leisurely fashion. He was raising them very high and about 1.5 times as fast as his hind legs. A very strange disconnected gait.

He seems to feel better and is maybe moving better. I'll know more after the weekend. His appetite has improved, but actually he never had a problem with that. He just wants more now so I hope that means he feels better.

He still has the skin infection going on. It may be slightly worse since he didnt' get his bath midweek since it would interfere with the acupuncture. He'll get a bath today and another on Tuesday since his next acupuncture/laser appointment is Wednesday.:crossfing He is still on cephalexin and will be for another 2 weeks at a minimum.

Steve - you are so very right about the heat. I was just out watering the garden and thought I'd melt into a puddle of lard.


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## Bob Dylan

HUGS & KISSES for Copper and you!

Try to stay cool, it is just so HOT in NJ.


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## goldencontriever3

Oh I am so glad to hear Copper's treatment is helping. We will keep you both in our prayers. Hope Copper continues to improve. Hugs to you both!

Keep cool. This heat is terrible!


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## Karen519

*Copper*

TERESA: So glad to hear Copper is doing better!!

My Sister lives in Galloway, NJ, half hour from Atlantic City and she said it is BEASTLY OUT THERE!!!


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## RedWoofs

hope i'm not too late to add: on the notion of bed covers, i just get fabric or a sheet and make a sack. it's serged on three sides, long on the one end, and then once in place i do a european fold to keep it secure. If you need me to make one for you happy to do so!

and this heat is dreadful!!!!!!! I'm in MD and your description of melting into a puddle of lard had me laughing hard!


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## Karen519

*Copper*

Just checking in on Copper.


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## coppers-mom

Copper is doing pretty well. His hips are hurting again so he has an appointment in the morning for acupuncture and laser therapy.:crossfing
The heat does a number on him as it does me so we are not spending as much time outside.

His skin infection seems to be healed although he still has "furuncles" in his right front paw that cause him pain. Those things seem to take a very long time to heal. He is still on antibiotics for them.

My "dog mobile" has been in the shop, but is now fixed. I will pick it up tonight and he can ride in comfort if not style. It is my 1997 camry (302,000+ miles) and he is allowed to be as dirty and wet as he wants to be in it. I've been having to use DH's mazda SUV to haul him around and it must be kept clean.

We will resume our trips to the big creek and do some fishing this weekend. Wet, dirty and happy for me, him and brother Jack.

All in all - some ups and some downs in the last few weeks but more "ups". That's great - especially when you have an older dog with many issues. I'll gladly take what we are getting.

REd Woofs - thank you so much for the offer to sew him a cover. I don't sew on buttons.:uhoh: He removed his cover from his cool bed and seems to really like the feel of the vinyl. I was only covering it so little "Trouble" wouldn't chew it to pieces and she has left it alone.:crossfing I'll just continue to hope her uncharacteristically good behavior continues.


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