# Reputation of "Cynazar Goldens" in NJ?



## AcesWild

Paypal right on the website huge red flag, would run right away


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## Jersey's Mom

I started looking through some of the clearances on the girl's page. The only dog with a Cardiac Clearance actually listed is "Arwen." Though for the most part hips and elbows appear exactly how they list them, though with a few exceptions: Snowhite doesn't have a registered name to check (and her sire isn't listed... I didn't check the dam since she is from out of the country), neither does Shaina. Missi isn't listed in OFA at all and they note her as "X-ray clear," whatever that means. Couldn't check any of the CERF clearances because the data base is glitching on me, and don't have the time right now to look into the males. 

Basically, I'd have a number of questions for them... not the least of which is whether they can provide proof of the cardiac clearances as they're not listed on OFA (though that's not 100% necessary, it's more important that it is done by a Board Certified Cardiologist... and the 1 cardiac clearance listed indicates just that, but there should be one for each dog obviously). Hopefully someone else can jump in and check up on the boys as it's past my bedtime... and maybe the CERF site will be back up and running tomorrow. 

There also isn't much indication of how many litters they tend to have at a time (though admittedly I didn't search through the site that much). I agree with Aces that the Paypal on their site is a HUGE turnoff for me and would likely be enough to make me discount them... but at the very least it's something I would ask them about. 

Oh, just one other note... I couldn't find any Buyer's Contract online. I don't necessarily expect that everyone should post theirs online (in fact, most small hobby breeders don't as their websites tend to be very underdeveloped) but it's something I'd want to examine closely to help determine an opinion of a breeder. So basically I'm not much help... but mostly I'm left with a number of questions from the site. My best advice is to look through GRF's Puppy Buyer Fact Checker ( http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=22440 ) and interview them thoroughly.

Julie and Jersey


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## Ljilly28

There is no way (personally) I would buy a puppy from this breeder, although I am glad they do seem to try for most clearances. It will be important to see all four(eyes, heart, hips, elbows) for both parents, bc the recorded ones at OFA are spotty. Some have wonderful hips, but then no cardiac listed etc. You'd have to track down any omitted clearance and make sure it exists. They don't seem to be the worst choice but also far from the best choice. The British/English creme rhetoric turns me off for reasons often discussed on the forum. If they are "british -type" or imported, do they come from an excellent, reputable European breeder? This is too often a cheap-shot marketing ploy. The lack of any performance, training, obedience, citizenship, or conformation titles bothers me bc it tells me they don't spend time with their dogs and their peers the way I want my breeder to. For 1,500 you could do much better. I would keep looking and researching.


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## Pointgold

Blechh. The site tuns me away for a myriad of reasons.


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## Griffyn'sMom

I never heard of them and I live in Central Jersey!

Just make sure you do your homework with clearances. If you're really interested, visit them and go with your gut.


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## Cynazar Goldens

Hello,
My name is Jenne Black and I represent Cynazar Goldens. May I ask, if everyone is so curious about our website and our dogs, why not email or call me and ask? I always get back to my emails and I am a phone call away. In fact, while searching the web, this one string of posts is the ONLY negative information that I can find against us- which I find quite funny that not one of the people who posted about us has ever spoke with us or has owned a Cynazar puppy before. How can you judge a breeder just by the layout of their website? It is important to speak with people who have actually dealt with us in order to get a better idea about who we are and what our dogs are like.

diggingforgoldens-
I can put you in contact with families who own a Cynazar Golden. In fact, many of our puppy owners choose to stay connected with eachother through our exclusive Facebook group, where they can share photos, comments, and brags about their Goldens. I would imagine that a breeder with something to hide would never put his or her clients in direct communication with eachother. Our reputation speaks for itself when it comes to the quality of puppies that we breed.

AcesWild-
I understand that the CynazarGoldens website may have been a bit rudimentary back in 2008, but I can personally assure you that it is updated and well-written now. May I ask what you think of my website now? I put my heart and soul into making it better and more informative every day. I would love to hear some feedback.

Jersey's Mom-
I can assure you that our dogs' hearts are cleared by a board-certified cardiologist. Please feel free to stop by any time and take a look at the original certificates. We use the term "X-Ray Clear" when we take a dog under two years of age for x-rays (a.k.a. sneak and peeks) and their hips look nice. We prefer to take the extra step and make sure that our future breeding dogs' hips are sound. We do not breed until our dogs pass their OFA's for hips and elbows (at two years of age), and of course their cardio and CERF. I wasn't aware that not having our contract posted online was a sign that we are in any way unprofessional or unethical? Feel free to interview me at any time and decide for yourself whether or not I am qualified to be a part of Cynazar Goldens!

Ljilly28-
You are entitled to your opinion, but I am sure that if you actually came and spent time with our dogs, you would feel quite differently. We are very discerning with the quality we breed. You are welcome to view the pedigrees of our European Imported males and females on the website, as I have them posted there for all to see. Please realize that it isn't the color we're after in the "English Cream" Goldens we have chosen to breed- it is the health, temperament, and conformation. All shades of the Golden Retriever are beautiful in their own way. I would like to let you know that our family spends all of our time with our dogs. No, I personally have not been able to get out in the agility ring, although I would love to! I believe that I would make a wonderful professional trainer with all the experience I have training our own dogs. Many of our Cynazar puppies have been and are being trained as Service and Therapy dogs, as well as being trained for agility and obedience. Have you heard of ADAI (Assistance Dogs for America, Inc.) and Can Do Canines? I can put you in contact with several references that can verify this if you would like.

Pointgold-
I hope you do not feel the same way about my site now?

Griffyn'sMom-
I was born and grew up here in Central Jersey, as did my parents. The majority of our puppy owners live right here in Central Jersey as well. Maybe we just haven't bumped into eachother? (It's not like we advertise our puppies in the local papers )

Please feel free to contact me about anything!
Thanks
Jenne


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## Mssjnnfer

I know it's almost Halloween, but Frankenstein threads like this just aren't cool. It's been dead over a year.


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## Cynazar Goldens

Lol I know, but this thread has been in the back of my mind for a while and I figured that I should put my two cents into it, since it is about "me".
Anyone who googles "Cynazar Goldens" will find this, so it's better late than never as far as a reply.
Happy almost Halloween, since you brought it up! :]
-Jenne


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## Ljilly28

This is just feedback from a devoted pet owner as I do not breed any dogs. 

I am really glad to hear all your breeding dogs have all four clearances- that's wonderful. 

I see you had a Mulder puppy, and I'm curious as to why not show/ compete in obedience or out in the field? Ideally, a breeder is trying to contribute to/improve on the overall health and standard for a loved breed, and the processes of getting out there with peers helps measure if the dogs one is breeding are falling short of previous generations or improving. I think showing that your breeding dogs are really capable in mind and body when measured against peers is helpful for a buyer. 

For me, I would love to see some credentials like CGC, TDI, CD, JH, SH, Can CH, Am CH at the minimum to know that the breeders are aware of where their breeding program's dogs are relating to their peers.

How many puppies/teenagers/ older dogs a year do you, in your opinion, think a responsible breeder can raise & train & sell in an ideal, loving way? It seems like there are 20-30 dogs on your property.

Cynazar BG's Beauty
Cynazar Let It Snow
Cynazar Lots of Snow
Cynazar Lycinan LOTR Arwen
Cynazar Mr. Big Time
Cynazar Pocket Pooch Plush
Cynazar Smoke 'N Mirrahs
Cynazar's All Shook Up
Cynazar's Cyndarella's Slipper
Cynazar's Dunkin' Donut
Cynazar's Golden Diamond
Cynazar's Grand Illusion
Cynazar's Ice Cream Sundae
Cynazar's Illustrious Illusion
Cynazar's Jersey Devil
Cynazar Lycinan Treasure
Cynazar Pocket Pooch Plush
Cynazar Smoke 'N Mirrahs
Cynazar's Crystal Blue Persuasion
Cynazar's Nocturne in Black and Gold
Cynazar's NYY Legend Bernie Williams
Cynazar's Snowhite


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## AmbikaGR

The below response was my response to Jenne in another thread on this breeder on this forum. 

No where on your site do I read that "We require that a family come to our home so that we can get a feel for how they are".
Well you still advertise them as "English Creams". It is a marketing ploy used by savvy breeders to charge more for their pups.
You state that all your breeding stock has CERF certification. Yet the first three dogs listed (Skimo, Diamond, Beauty) can not be found in CERF's database. 
I decided not to waste any more time on your site. And I just hope others doing searches on the web for you see this and the other thread.


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## Pointgold

Cynazar Goldens said:


> Hello,
> My name is Jenne Black and I represent Cynazar Goldens. May I ask, if everyone is so curious about our website and our dogs, why not email or call me and ask? I always get back to my emails and I am a phone call away. In fact, while searching the web, this one string of posts is the ONLY negative information that I can find against us- which I find quite funny that not one of the people who posted about us has ever spoke with us or has owned a Cynazar puppy before. How can you judge a breeder just by the layout of their website? It is important to speak with people who have actually dealt with us in order to get a better idea about who we are and what our dogs are like.
> 
> diggingforgoldens-
> I can put you in contact with families who own a Cynazar Golden. In fact, many of our puppy owners choose to stay connected with eachother through our exclusive Facebook group, where they can share photos, comments, and brags about their Goldens. I would imagine that a breeder with something to hide would never put his or her clients in direct communication with eachother. Our reputation speaks for itself when it comes to the quality of puppies that we breed.
> 
> AcesWild-
> I understand that the CynazarGoldens website may have been a bit rudimentary back in 2008, but I can personally assure you that it is updated and well-written now. May I ask what you think of my website now? I put my heart and soul into making it better and more informative every day. I would love to hear some feedback.
> 
> Jersey's Mom-
> I can assure you that our dogs' hearts are cleared by a board-certified cardiologist. Please feel free to stop by any time and take a look at the original certificates. We use the term "X-Ray Clear" when we take a dog under two years of age for x-rays (a.k.a. sneak and peeks) and their hips look nice. We prefer to take the extra step and make sure that our future breeding dogs' hips are sound. We do not breed until our dogs pass their OFA's for hips and elbows (at two years of age), and of course their cardio and CERF. I wasn't aware that not having our contract posted online was a sign that we are in any way unprofessional or unethical? Feel free to interview me at any time and decide for yourself whether or not I am qualified to be a part of Cynazar Goldens!
> 
> Ljilly28-
> You are entitled to your opinion, but I am sure that if you actually came and spent time with our dogs, you would feel quite differently. We are very discerning with the quality we breed. You are welcome to view the pedigrees of our European Imported males and females on the website, as I have them posted there for all to see. Please realize that it isn't the color we're after in the "English Cream" Goldens we have chosen to breed- it is the health, temperament, and conformation. All shades of the Golden Retriever are beautiful in their own way. I would like to let you know that our family spends all of our time with our dogs. No, I personally have not been able to get out in the agility ring, although I would love to! I believe that I would make a wonderful professional trainer with all the experience I have training our own dogs. Many of our Cynazar puppies have been and are being trained as Service and Therapy dogs, as well as being trained for agility and obedience. Have you heard of ADAI (Assistance Dogs for America, Inc.) and Can Do Canines? I can put you in contact with several references that can verify this if you would like.
> 
> Pointgold-
> I hope you do not feel the same way about my site now?
> 
> Griffyn'sMom-
> I was born and grew up here in Central Jersey, as did my parents. The majority of our puppy owners live right here in Central Jersey as well. Maybe we just haven't bumped into eachother? (It's not like we advertise our puppies in the local papers )
> 
> Please feel free to contact me about anything!
> Thanks
> Jenne


 
I do feel the same way about your site now. In fact, even more strongly. Is it intentional that in the the middle of information about GOLDEN RETRIEVERS, you indicate that Ch Cynazar's LA Woman was the #2 female in 1993? I ask, because she was a Shar Pei. Interesting to note would be that the AKC lists 37 Shar Pei with the Cynazar prefix but she is the only Champion, or even titled, dog. How nice that your only champion would be #2 Female... really? And the AKC lists 40 Golden Retrievers with the Cynazar prefix - not one is titled. How are you gauging this eye for perfection that you have? And how do you jusitfy marketing whites, and English Cremes, etc etc and expect to have knowledgeable people respect you? Are you aware of the issue of Pigmentary Uveitis in GR's? Your CERF record would suggest no. 
So yeah, sorry. I feel the same.


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## Pointgold

_"No, I personally have not been able to get out in the agility ring, although I would love to! I believe that I would make a wonderful professional trainer with all the experience I have training our own dogs."_

And while I have not been to medical school, I believe I would make a wonderful neurosurgeon with all the experience watching Grey's Anatomy episodes that I have!


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## joysgirls

@Pointgold- LMAO-AWESOME !!!


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## PeytonsMommy

Hi All!

You have all been very sweet and welcoming since I've posted here a few times, and I just wanted to give you my input, because I actually OWN a Cynazar golden. 

I can speak for Peyton, his temperament, and the kind of dog he is. He is a handsome, beautiful half English/half American golden. I am always complimented on how gorgeous he is, trotting along just like a prince! He has loads of energy, and just as much love to give. When I come home, he plops himself in my lap just like he's still a 15 lb. puppy, and gives endless kisses. He watches me from the window when I leave, and I hear is quite the mope when I'm gone. Favorite hobbies including stealing shoes, and being as friendly and happy as possible. He is my best friend and the reason I look forward to coming home every day. I also have spoken with his sister's owners as well as his half-sister's owners, and both have said nothing but wonderful things. 

Cynazar also has a group on Facebook for owners of their dogs, filled with glowing comments. 

Now, to be completely truthful, he does have a sensitive stomach which caused the occasional upset tummy. However, ever since I found the right food (which he's been on for quite a while now), he's being doing wonderful!!

He is my little angel, I don't know what I'd do without him!


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## pegburns

I have had 3 Golden Retrievers and the last I got from Cynazar last June, 2009....my dog Kasey is amazing!!!...the most personality and intelligence...she walks with a wonderful trot and is extremely beautiful!!!.....the breeders (Cynazar) were so informative and helpful, providing me with all clearance information and even calling to see how the puppy was doing.....this dog is clearly the best Golden I've had and I highly recommend Cynazar!


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## pegburns

@AmbikaGR....Cynazar DOES require that potential buyers come to their home before buying a puppy...I spent 2 hours answering questions about my home life and experience with dogs and also had a multitude of my questions answered before picking out a pup.....there was absolutely no pressure: it was a very positive experience.... While I am not an expert on "show" dogs, I feel after my experiences with my 2 previous Goldens (both wonderful dogs!), I am at least qualified to comment on the quality of my Cynazar ddog, Kasey....I have never received so many compliments on a dog as I get for Kasey... not only on her beautiful looks but her extremely loving and obedient nature....I seriously question the intelligence of anyone basing their opinions of a breeder from a website and not on the "product" and without doing a comprehensive research which includes testimony from actual Cynazar Golden owners.


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## pegburns

@Pointgold.....your "neurosurgeon" comment was childish and rude!


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## LibertyME

Speaking for myself only, but suspecting that I speak form many on the board...
We are all want the best for every dog/puppy. We can EASILY separate the dog and those that love them a from the breeder. Many of us have dogs that come from shelters where the pedigree is totally unknown. EVERY dog deserves a loving home...and we are glad that your puppy landed in your home.

However IMO, this breeder is a greeder. They charge the same amount of money and dont do any of the extras that very good, very reputable breeders do for the *same price*. Which leads me to believe that they are riding the coat tails of excellent breeders...without having to do any of the extra work or reinvesting back into their breeding program.


They mistakenly think that they are somehow on the same quality level as very good breeders just because there are buyers out there willing to pay the money.... just 'loving' the dogs that put food on their table is not enough....

If I have the choice to spend $1500.00 on a puppy that comes from Cyanzar or the hundreds of others that fall into the same category.... or spend the same $1500.00 *(or often times less!)* on a puppy from a breeder that has NOT ONLY spent the cash on clearances, but has also invested time energy and money in training & showing - I know where my money will go. It will go to the breeders that walk the walk...not just talk the talk.


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## tippykayak

I do not find it productive to mock this breeder. It distracts from more important issues and violates forum rules to boot. If we really want to do what's best for the dogs and potential buyers, let's sort out the big issues that seem to have cropped up:

First, the claim on the website that all dogs are CERFed, even though few (none?) are in the CERF database. Is the breeder not getting the dogs CERFed and lying, or is she simply not sending in the forms? If so, does she realize how important it is for yearly eye clearances to be updated in the database so more progress can be made in eliminating PU from the breed?

Second, the breeding of dogs without entering in conformation or some kind of competition to help the breeder really, truly know which dogs are worth breeding and which conform more tightly to physical and working ability standards (i.e., the complete lack of any titles on these dogs). Does this breeder understand how important it is to hold your dogs up against other dogs from the breed in order to continuously strive for better and better dogs, rather than just producing litter after litter for profit?

Third, I haven't heard an answer to LJilly's very astute question about proper socialization of puppies in a high volume operation. How are they being socialized and raised if there are so many litters on the ground at a time?

Fourth, under the "for sale" section, there are literally a couple of dozen dogs without homes, many of which are out of puppy stage. Are these dogs just living in an enclosure out back in a pack, waiting for somebody to buy them? What kind of training and socialization are they getting?

Personal attacks on the breeder, while amusing, do not help the dogs. They make us look like a bunch of internet losers with nothing better to do than pick fights, rather than breed enthusiasts who want what's best for dogs and their potential owners.


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## LibertyME

yet the comment was accurate none the less....




pegburns said:


> @Pointgold.....your "neurosurgeon" comment was childish and rude!


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## tippykayak

LibertyME said:


> If I have the choice to spend $1500.00 on a puppy that comes from Cyanzar or the hundreds of others that fall into the same category.... or spend the same $1500.00 *(or often times less!)* on a puppy from a breeder that has NOT ONLY spent the cash on clearances, but has also invested time energy and money in training & showing - I know where my money will go. It will go to the breeders that walk the walk...not just talk the talk.


My personal experience is that the really good small volume breeders I know actually charge significantly less for significantly better dogs than high volume pet breeders. They want to produce a great litter for their own next generation of competition dogs, and they sell the others to cover the costs. They'd rather sell at a lower price and have the dogs go to working or active homes than sell at a higher price and lower their standards.

These same people are hard to find if you're on the market for a pet and not involved in your local breed club or GR people network, and that leaves a big market opening for people who don't compete to charge a lot more.


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## 5edie5

I love my Cynazar golden and wouldn't go anywhere else. When my beloved Gracee died last month I contacted Jenne and am happy to say we are now going through the joys of puppy training once again. Gracee was a beautiful dog and great companion. She was loved by all that met her. While our new guy Jack does not replace her in anyway, he is filling our live with love. We do not intend to show him...or breed him...bringing him into our family was about companionship. My family and I drove up to PA to visit the puppies. The farm where the dogs live is amazing....These dogs are well loved and well treated. I am sure that looking at a website can give you some information about a breeder but if you really want to see what is going on take the drive to PA, meet the dogs and puppies, talk to the Cynthia and Jenne... you will not be disappointed only surprised at what a great mother daughter team they are. They produce fine dogs. I am looking forward to a happy life with Jack.


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## tippykayak

5edie5 said:


> I love my Cynazar golden and wouldn't go anywhere else. When my beloved Gracee died last month I contacted Jenne and am happy to say we are now going through the joys of puppy training once again. Gracee was a beautiful dog and great companion. She was loved by all that met her. While our new guy Jack does not replace her in anyway, he is filling our live with love. We do not intend to show him...or breed him...bringing him into our family was about companionship. My family and I drove up to PA to visit the puppies. The farm where the dogs live is amazing....These dogs are well loved and well treated. I am sure that looking at a website can give you some information about a breeder but if you really want to see what is going on take the drive to PA, meet the dogs and puppies, talk to the Cynthia and Jenne... you will not be disappointed only surprised at what a great mother daughter team they are. They produce fine dogs. I am looking forward to a happy life with Jack.


Hi Edie,

Do you understand the concerns that people have about the operation? Nobody is saying that the dogs aren't nice or that the breeder is evil (though some have been unfortunately personal).


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## Pointgold

How about the "breeder" answering the VALID questions that have been asked here, rather than puppy buyers coming to defend her with general statements about how wonderful she is, when she in fact is only doing (partially) what any decent breeder would do? Requiring a potential puppy buyer come to their home before committing to a sale, and calling to see how a puppy is doing after the sale are the_ minimum_ that any breeder should do. I am far more concerned about lack of clearances in the databases, no attempts to _prove_ their abilities as show or performance dogs, and again, the listing of a SHAR-PEI as "#2 Female" without making it clear that this was NOT a Golden Retriever, or even offering substantial proof of the Shar-Pei's ranking as such - 1 dog out of 37 listed by the AKC with any title at all... The general pet buying public may be impressed by such claims, but experienced folks are certainly going to question the validity - and when the answers given are vague at best, and even blatantly untrue, red flags go up. 
Pets purchased by people from Cynazar may be loving, and it's exciting and flattering to have people comment on how pretty they are. But frankly, people said the same thing about GRM's dogs. 
As for "mocking" this person, I can only imagine the response I would have gotten if I were to to say that I had no experience in a particular venue but I know I'd be an excellent trainer in it. It's ridiculous. I've asked the tough questions, politely and genuinely. All I've seen is "Hey - I changed my web site. Do you like me now?" No. You have to be able to PROVE your claims, and when you put yourself out there as with an internet website, you better believe you've opened yourself up to scrutiny. I'm NOT impressed until it can be proven that a breeder is "walking the walk" and not just "talking the talk". Because the bottom line is _the dogs._ It is, ultimately _the dogs_ who suffer when all the fancy claims cannot be backed up. And nice people who either do not understand the ramifications of NOT having the claims proven, or, who simply do not care until all of sudden they are forking out lots of money for veterinary care. 
How many "Cynazars" are out there who are aware of PU in Goldens, and who are asking that their pet buyers are doing annual exams, (let alone who are actually CERF'ing their breeding dogs for their LIFETIME, not just when they are bred)? There's too much at stake for those of us who _really _care about what is best for the dogs and their potential owners. And if I use humor (sarcasm, "mocking", whatEVER one would like to call it) to vent my frustration with people who claim to "care" but don't (other than the checks they receive) and you don't like it, don't read it. Until you've been on the other side of the whelping box, you wouldn't understand.


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## PeytonsMommy

Please understand it is very difficult for us to see the breeder criticized who brought our family members to us. I have only had Peyton for a year and a half, but love him like a child! I am a member of the Cynazar facebook group, and have noticed when they make status updates about taking the dogs for clearances. 

Also, to address the concern about there being too many pups at one time...when I went to pick a pup, there were only about 8-9 puppies. Peyton was wonderfully socialized. He's incredibly friendly with both people and dogs.


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## Pointgold

PeytonsMommy said:


> Please understand it is very difficult for us to see the breeder criticized who brought our family members to us. I have only had Peyton for a year and a half, but love him like a child! I am a member of the Cynazar facebook group, and have noticed when they make status updates about taking the dogs for clearances.
> 
> Also, to address the concern about there being too many pups at one time...when I went to pick a pup, there were only about 8-9 puppies. Peyton was wonderfully socialized. He's incredibly friendly with both people and dogs.


 
And please understand that the criticism has nothing to do with you, or your dog. As a long time breeder who has been involved with the breed for well over 30 years, and who has worked tirelessly to do the very best that I can FOR THE DOGS, and to educate those interested in Goldens, it is extrodinarily frustrating to see fraudulent claims made, and nice people who take those claims at face value because they have fallen in love with a cute puppy - and aren't they all? 
Golden Retrievers have wonderful temperaments and are loving, happy dogs. Even, for the most part, in spite of less than stellar breedings. A dog with genetic health issues may still be wonderfully socialized with dogs and people. That's all dandy.

I pray that your Peyton, who is only a year and a half old, _never _suffers from any genetic health issues. Did your breeder discuss Pigmentary Uveitis with you? Were you asked/required to annual CERF eye exams on your puppy? Does _she?_ Because there are only TWO Cynazar dogs in the CERF database - report dates 2002. 
There is SO much more to this than a happy, loving family member.


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## tippykayak

PeytonsMommy said:


> Please understand it is very difficult for us to see the breeder criticized who brought our family members to us. I have only had Peyton for a year and a half, but love him like a child! I am a member of the Cynazar facebook group, and have noticed when they make status updates about taking the dogs for clearances.
> 
> Also, to address the concern about there being too many pups at one time...when I went to pick a pup, there were only about 8-9 puppies. Peyton was wonderfully socialized. He's incredibly friendly with both people and dogs.


I get that, but nobody's criticizing your pup, and nobody would tell you he isn't totally wonderful. The dog that made me fall in love with the breed over 20 years ago was a BYB dog who had shoulder surgery for a congenital condition at 3 and died at 7. I'm very thankful to have known and loved the dog, but I would not defend the breeder's practices (she just let her two lovely pet GRs have puppies).

If you only saw 8 or 9 puppies, I really do wonder where she's keeping the 20-odd dogs between 16 weeks and 5 years old that she has listed on her website as for sale, as well as the fairly high number of breeding bitches she must have on site in order to produce this volume. Also, last June/July there were three litters on the ground at the same time. That's a lot of volume and a lot of puppies to be personally socializing every day.

I think you'll find that if you talk about Peyton in other threads, post pictures, or ask advice, you'll get a very warm reception. Nobody will discriminate against him because his breeder appears less than ideal. However, I hope you'll see how important it is to breed dogs to the highest health, conformation, and temperament standards and why people in this thread are asking tough questions.


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## PeytonsMommy

Pointgold, I absolutely understand and am not by any means taking what you're saying personally, I am only providing my testament for what I know so far (from my own experience) to be quality dogs. Peyton was sold, as are many of their pups, with limited registration and is neutered (was never intended to be a show dog, or a sire). The reason I chose Cynazar initially was because they stated on their website that certifications for the parents were available. 

I also hope he has a long, healthy, wonderful life. I truly love him and hope to spend as much time with him as possible!


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## Pointgold

PeytonsMommy said:


> Pointgold, I absolutely understand and am not by any means taking what you're saying personally, I am only providing my testament for what I know so far (from my own experience) to be quality dogs. Peyton was sold, as are many of their pups, with limited registration and is neutered (was never intended to be a show dog, or a sire). The reason I chose Cynazar initially was because they stated on their website that certifications for the parents were available.
> 
> I also hope he has a long, healthy, wonderful life. I truly love him and hope to spend as much time with him as possible!


 
Did you ask to see those certifications? Were they _offered _to you? And again, I ask - were you informed about Pigmentary Uveitis in GR's?


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## AmbikaGR

pegburns said:


> @AmbikaGR....Cynazar DOES require that potential buyers come to their home before buying a puppy...I spent 2 hours answering questions about my home life and experience with dogs and also had a multitude of my questions answered before picking out a pup.....there was absolutely no pressure: it was a very positive experience.... While I am not an expert on "show" dogs, I feel after my experiences with my 2 previous Goldens (both wonderful dogs!), I am at least qualified to comment on the quality of my Cynazar ddog, Kasey....I have never received so many compliments on a dog as I get for Kasey... not only on her beautiful looks but her extremely loving and obedient nature....I seriously question the intelligence of anyone basing their opinions of a breeder from a website and not on the "product" and without doing a comprehensive research which includes testimony from actual Cynazar Golden owners.





pegburns said:


> @Pointgold.....your "neurosurgeon" comment was childish and rude!




And you comment is ...? :--dumbfounded:
Welcome to the GRF. :wavey:
I am glad your experience with this breeder has so far been a positive one. 

As to the rest of your comment I will totally disagree. Breeding loving, sweet, good looking look dogs is far from enough in my book. And as far as doing "comprehensive research" on the breeder that is exactly what I am doing. Holding them to the minimal standards as set by the Golden Retriever Club of America and they did/do not meet them.


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## PeytonsMommy

tippykayak said:


> I think you'll find that if you talk about Peyton in other threads, post pictures, or ask advice, you'll get a very warm reception. Nobody will discriminate against him because his breeder appears less than ideal.


I would _hope_ that goes without saying! *A golden is a golden* -- whether rescued from the street, a shelter, or purchased from a breeder! I was under the impression we were not here to judge one another based on where our goldens come from, but to share in the joy of owning a member of such a wonderful breed!

I do not feel comfortable answering some of the detailed questions you are asking about Cynazar's daily practices, as I am not there day-to-day. I was simply providing my *personal testament* for Peyton's temperament, and the experience of purchasing a golden from Cynazar. Specific questions (about certifications, where the dogs live and spend their days, how many dogs are on the premises, etc.) should be directed to Jenne, as she requested back on the first page. She always responds efficiently to me, and I'm sure would be happy to do the same for anyone else. After this post, I have no further intentions of replying to this thread.

I waited 26 years to have a dog, and for various reasons was never able to do so. I knew from the moment Peyton was handed to me he was the most precious thing in the world, and nothing, and I do mean *NOTHING* will ever change that fact.


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## Cynazar Goldens

Hi again- It's Jenne.
I do offer all health clearances for those who come to buy a puppy, and am more than happy to send them home with copies of each as well. I see that I'm probably going to have to scan in all the CERF forms and post them up on the website, since there is a big controversy with not sending them into the CERF online site.
As far as having multiple litters at the same time, actions speak louder than words. Our last litter was born in the beginning of August, and we are not due for our next litter until January. Besides Cynda's upcoming litter, we have no other dogs pregnant. Experienced breeders understand that when females live together, their cycles synchronize, which can mean having most of your litters all within the same month.
Any breeder who slaps two dogs together in order to bring in the cash is incredibly irresponsible. We hold onto our pick puppies from almost every litter. If anyone is wondering why we have adolescents available, this is why. We hold onto our best dogs and see how they turn out. Our dogs aren't "thrown out together in wild, unsocialized packs". If a breeder doesn't have enough time to spend with each of his or her dogs, they probably have too many dogs. Our puppies are always whelped and raised in the kitchen, and our adolescents and adults are kept in the house- of course let out to run at different times and different areas. When breeding our Goldens, we put them in one of the three runs located conveniently on our patio. Golden Retrievers aren't a breed that takes well to "isolation"- they are family dogs and need to be kept in the house and with people!
A breeder who breeds for profit would probably have buildings full of animals, litters of unsocialized dogs year-round, and probably won't spend the time to find the ideal, qualified homes for their dogs. They would also try to sell entire litters by the time they are 7 weeks old, just to get them out of the door. When we sell a puppy, we expect to maintain a close relationship with the family for at least the rest of the puppy's life. We wait until we find the right home for each of our puppies and dogs before we consider letting them leave our home.
Like I said, the three areas we find most important to breed for are Health (number one), Temperament, and Conformation.
I believe that the Cynazar owners that post here have every right to do so, considering that they are giving valid, reliable, and truthful testimonials about the dogs in question. If anyone can speak for or against us, it's them!


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## Pointgold

Cynazar Goldens said:


> Hi again- It's Jenne.
> I do offer all health clearances for those who come to buy a puppy, and am more than happy to send them home with copies of each as well. I see that I'm probably going to have to scan in all the CERF forms and post them up on the website, since there is a big controversy with not sending them into the CERF online site.
> As far as having multiple litters at the same time, actions speak louder than words. Our last litter was born in the beginning of August, and we are not due for our next litter until January. Besides Cynda's upcoming litter, we have no other dogs pregnant. Experienced breeders understand that when females live together, their cycles synchronize, which can mean having most of your litters all within the same month.
> Any breeder who slaps two dogs together in order to bring in the cash is incredibly irresponsible. We hold onto our pick puppies from almost every litter. If anyone is wondering why we have adolescents available, this is why. We hold onto our best dogs and see how they turn out. Our dogs aren't "thrown out together in wild, unsocialized packs". If a breeder doesn't have enough time to spend with each of his or her dogs, they probably have too many dogs. Our puppies are always whelped and raised in the kitchen, and our adolescents and adults are kept in the house- of course let out to run at different times and different areas. When breeding our Goldens, we put them in one of the three runs located conveniently on our patio. Golden Retrievers aren't a breed that takes well to "isolation"- they are family dogs and need to be kept in the house and with people!
> A breeder who breeds for profit would probably have buildings full of animals, litters of unsocialized dogs year-round, and probably won't spend the time to find the ideal, qualified homes for their dogs. They would also try to sell entire litters by the time they are 7 weeks old, just to get them out of the door. When we sell a puppy, we expect to maintain a close relationship with the family for at least the rest of the puppy's life. We wait until we find the right home for each of our puppies and dogs before we consider letting them leave our home.
> Like I said, the three areas we find most important to breed for are Health (number one), Temperament, and Conformation.
> I believe that the Cynazar owners that post here have every right to do so, considering that they are giving valid, reliable, and truthful testimonials about the dogs in question. If anyone can speak for or against us, it's them!


 
You have not answered any of the questions posed.
Why do you not send your ACVO exam forms into CERF? Do you understand PU and the ramifications of not requiring annual exams on ALL GR's?
Why are there not Hip/elbow,cardiac and CERF numbers in the databases for all the dogs that you use for breeding?
As for your puppy buyers, they of course have a "right" topost here, and while they may be posting "valid, reliable and truthful testamonials" as they undertand them, they do not have the knowledg or the undertanding to answer what is being asked of you, as a breeder, by breeders. That is up to you.


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## tippykayak

Cynazar Goldens said:


> Hi again- It's Jenne.
> I do offer all health clearances for those who come to buy a puppy, and am more than happy to send them home with copies of each as well. I see that I'm probably going to have to scan in all the CERF forms and post them up on the website, since there is a big controversy with not sending them into the CERF online site.


Please post them to the CERF database instead of scanning them. The more data we have organized, the better we can fight genetic eye problems.



Cynazar Goldens said:


> Our puppies are always whelped and raised in the kitchen, and our adolescents and adults are kept in the house- of course let out to run at different times and different areas. When breeding our Goldens, we put them in one of the three runs located conveniently on our patio. Golden Retrievers aren't a breed that takes well to "isolation"- they are family dogs and need to be kept in the house and with people!


How many dogs do you have on the property, not counting pups under 8 weeks? From your site, it looks like 20 or 30 at the minimum. Is my math inaccurate?

Also, I'm still concerned that you don't compete at all, in any venue. How do you know you're improving on conformation if the dog are never held against the standard in a competition?

Your posters have every right to say they love your dogs, and more power to them. And for what it's worth, I don't think you're a horrible evil breeder. I do still have lots of questions that remain unanswered, though.


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## Ljilly28

Cynazar Goldens, you have a good amount of feedback now that both getting your paperwork in order and taking the time to train, trial, and campaign your dogs would really help your credibility and build better peer relationships. It would be wonderful if, at this time next year, you were able to show us a nice conformation title on several of your dogs and/or a few performance titles. It's important to wait to claim things about yourself as a trainer or about your dogs as more than pets until you have concrete accomplishments. If you do not have time to train for these things, than you have too many dogs imo, if you would like to be respected as a breeder by the community of golden breeders.


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## pegburns

@tippykayak....I agree with you wholeheartedly!!!....I am not a breeder, just a dog lover....I bought my first 2 Goldens from another breeder with all clearances and papers, saw the parents on site before buying, spoke with other owners, etc. and within 2 years, both dogs became very sick and were diagnosed with cancer....so NO breeder can absolutely guarantee a dog will be loving, obedient, and not get sick, no matter how diligent they are in getting clearances, socializing, etc......Cynazar breeders have a huge home in Pa with many acres where the dogs run and socialize....bottom line is that I am extremely happy with the breeeder and my wonderful Kasey....everyone, even us lowly non-breeders, is entitled to their opinion!


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## tippykayak

pegburns said:


> @tippykayak....I agree with you wholeheartedly!!!....I am not a breeder, just a dog lover....I bought my first 2 Goldens from another breeder with all clearances and papers, saw the parents on site before buying, spoke with other owners, etc. and within 2 years, both dogs became very sick and were diagnosed with cancer....so NO breeder can absolutely guarantee a dog will be loving, obedient, and not get sick, no matter how diligent they are in getting clearances, socializing, etc......Cynazar breeders have a huge home in Pa with many acres where the dogs run and socialize....bottom line is that I am extremely happy with the breeeder and my wonderful Kasey....everyone, even us lowly non-breeders, is entitled to their opinion!


I'm a lowly non-breeder too, just an enthusiast who's willing to do lots of reading.

I hope you're not trying to make the point that because any dog can get sick, it's pointless to be diligent with all the health work. It sort of sounds like that, but I can't imagine that's what you mean. Obviously, diligent attention paid to health can produce sounder, longer-lived dogs over time. Also, submitting health clearances to their respective databases allows scientists and doctors to track trends in the breed and help reduce and eliminate crippling or even deadly diseases.

I would like to see two things: more diligence from this breeder in keeping health certs up to date and submitted (and that's assuming that none are missing, and it sort of seems like some are), and some kind of participation in the world of showing and working dogs so we can really see that her dogs are maintaining breed standard.

Everything we love about Goldens comes from their working background, and breeding them only as pet dogs without showing them in any venue can dilute their ability and the physical aspects of their conformation that make them sound, athletic dogs. That's why people take it so seriously.


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## pegburns

@Pointgold.....I find your post stating Cynazar dog oweners do not have the knowledge or understanding of what the breeder should provide is not only insulting, it reveals a deep seated ignorance and arrogance that runs through all your posts....I am an intelligent and knowledgeable dog owner who has owned Golden Retrievers my entire life....I have made knowledge about this breed a priorty in my life in order to give my dogs the best life possible....reading through the posts, it's obvious that Cynazar repeatedly states that they are taking all criticism as constructive and are going to improve in areas suggested.....that's not enough for you??!!...bottom line is you are a bully not interested in advising a fellow breeder but only in mocking them...that says volumes about you!!


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## pegburns

@tippykayak....no, obviously I am NOT saying that a breeder should not be diligent concerning health issues...I am saying NO breeder is perfect and I find it very offensive that others are only interested in putting this breeder down in a very agrressive manner....isn't there any brotherhood in the breeder family?....are these breeders so competitive that they can't advise in an adult and intelligent manner?....and stating that non-breeders don't have the knowledge or understanding to know what is expected of breeders when they're buying a Golden?...aren't you offended by that?


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## Pointgold

pegburns said:


> @Pointgold.....I find your post stating Cynazar dog oweners do not have the knowledge or understanding of what the breeder should provide is not only insulting, it reveals a deep seated ignorance and arrogance that runs through all your posts....I am an intelligent and knowledgeable dog owner who has owned Golden Retrievers my entire life....I have made knowledge about this breed a priorty in my life in order to give my dogs the best life possible....reading through the posts, it's obvious that Cynazar repeatedly states that they are taking all criticism as constructive and are going to improve in areas suggested.....that's not enough for you??!!...bottom line is you are a bully not interested in advising a fellow breeder but only in mocking them...that says volumes about you!!


None of the loyal Cynazar puppy buyers, nor Cynazar, has anwered any of the valid questions I have asked. Rather, you all come back and cry foul and say how wonderful the dogs are. I again ask you - _were you shown all clearance certifications - hip/elbow, CERF eye and cardiology? Were you informed about Pigmentary Uveitis and asked/required to do annual CERF certifications on your Cynazar dogs? _

This "bully" wants only what is best for the dogs, and I don't want ANY dog to suffer the loss of an eye due to PU, nor do I want nice pet owners to have to deal with the expense of, and caring for, a blind or crippled dog.

The "brotherhood" of breeders is very concerned about these issues, and when these questions cannot/will not be answered, it is a problem.


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## tippykayak

pegburns said:


> @tippykayak....no, obviously I am NOT saying that a breeder should not be diligent concerning health issues...I am saying NO breeder is perfect and I find it very offensive that others are only interested in putting this breeder down in a very agrressive manner....isn't there any brotherhood in the breeder family?....are these breeders so competitive that they can't advise in an adult and intelligent manner?....and stating that non-breeders don't have the knowledge or understanding to know what is expected of breeders when they're buying a Golden?...aren't you offended by that?


There's no blue line when it comes to the health of dogs. People get super serious about that, and with good cause. There are so many breeders out there making a profit and hurting the breed or the individual dogs that it's really important for people to take a stand for the principles of ethical, health-oriented breeding.

Nobody on here is competing with Cynazar. Nobody is competing in the puppy sales market, and since they don't compete in any kind of show or sport, there's obviously no competition there. Every piece of criticism you've heard, whether it's been politely phrased or not, is about the health and safety of the dogs and the breed.

Cynazar, for all that you've had a good experience, seems not to meet some of these important guidelines, and breed enthusiasts take that really seriously. No breeder is perfect, but many are truly excellent in their attempts to do right by their dogs.

I'll repeat my particular concerns, both of which have been brought up by others repeatedly, yet have not been answered by anybody (which isn't a good sign, frankly).

How many animals are on the property?
Why aren't the clearances complete, up to date, and registered properly?


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## Pointgold

*Energy Level:*​




*5 Middle Of The Road*

*6 On The Happy Side*​









*$1,800*​ 















 


Just took a little time to peruse the Cynazar site (because, to date, all I've done is look for clearances.)

Um, really? "Guaranteed to pass all clearances when sold under full registration"?????? Additionally, Full registration is offered on several older dogs for an additional $1000.00. The AKC considers this to be selling papers, and is a suspendable offense. 

I'd also like to know who is evaluating these dogs and can, with any credibility, proclaim them to be show quality?
Sorry, folks. I need someone to explain to me how this is reputable, and responsible.


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## Braccarius

~~~~~~~~~~~


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## pegburns

@LibertyMe....I've just joined this group and am totally turned off by the childish, immature bullying attitudes of this group.....that comment was not necessary, as are most of the nasty comments on this blog....I understand frustration encountered when you don't think a breeder is being honest, but stooping to personal, mocking comments is not necessary... rest assured, even if you breed the most wonderful Goldens ever, an increasingly growing group of people reading these blogs would not ever consider buying from you...there are other breeders out there just as good who have integrity, which is sorely lacking in this group...frequent comments about non-breeders inability to comprehend what is expected of breeders is an arrogant attack; I am disgusted and anyone who states this is not personal is delusional.


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## pegburns

@Pointgold.....yes....we were shown clearances on my dog and informed about PU...at no time was I asked to pay for this information....I can only speak for myself because I have owned 2 other Goldens and have made it my priority to be knowledgeable and I suppose asked the "right" questions.....however, Cynthia (Cynazar breeder) also referred me to her vet, who I visited the following week...the vet showed me all health records and spent time explaining the necessary exams....I truly understand that all of you are concerned for the dogs and the buyers, but the "help" seems more like attacks and very personal at times.


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## Braccarius

pegburns said:


> @LibertyMe....I've just joined this group and am totally turned off by the childish, immature bullying attitudes of this group.....that comment was not necessary, as are most of the nasty comments on this blog....I understand frustration encountered when you don't think a breeder is being honest, but stooping to personal, mocking comments is not necessary... rest assured, even if you breed the most wonderful Goldens ever, an increasingly growing group of people reading these blogs would not ever consider buying from you...there are other breeders out there just as good who have integrity, which is sorely lacking in this group...frequent comments about non-breeders inability to comprehend what is expected of breeders is an arrogant attack; I am disgusted and anyone who states this is not personal is delusional.


This is the most ridiculous post I have EVER read on this forum. YOU have the audacity to question the integrity of a board whose SOLE INTEREST is the betterment of the breed?


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## arcane

ok quick peek and I am very disturbed! why so many puppies available? ranging from 8 wks onward, older bitches (5-6 yrs of age? ) that look like they have been used for breeding, possibly retiring but still asking $700-$900 ( and new family has to spay ) :doh:

As Tippy has asked, HOW MANY DOGS are on this property? I don't care who you are or how many family members you have there is NO WAY they can be properly socialized :no:....If I was just a layperson *that fact* alone would have me walking NO running the other way...


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## Pointgold

pegburns said:


> @Pointgold.....yes....we were shown clearances on my dog and informed about PU...at no time was I asked to pay for this information....I can only speak for myself because I have owned 2 other Goldens and have made it my priority to be knowledgeable and I suppose asked the "right" questions.....however, Cynthia (Cynazar breeder) also referred me to her vet, who I visited the following week...the vet showed me all health records and spent time explaining the necessary exams....I truly understand that all of you are concerned for the dogs and the buyers, but the "help" seems more like attacks and very personal at times.


 
Can you please share what you were told about PU?


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## Pointgold

Braccarius said:


> This is the most ridiculous post I have EVER read on this forum. YOU have the audacity to question the integrity of a board whose SOLE INTEREST is the betterment of the breed?


 
Seriously. VALID questions have been asked politely, and repeatedly, without answers being given. These questions have been posed for quite some time - perhaps it has taken a while to Google those answers? 

What is ridiculous is that constant cry of being "attacked", and how we must be in "competition" with Cynazar, when nothing is further from the truth.


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## Braccarius

I suddenly get the suspicion we're being baited on this and I encourage everybody to check their emotion on this subject and just drop this thread entirely. There are numerous "new" posters including the thread starter coming out of the woodwork.


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## AmbikaGR

For all the new Golden Retriever Forum members I would like to clear up what apears to be a misconception of this Forum. The vast majority of members here, likely more than 95%, are not breeders. The minority of us that are breeders have very strong beliefs on what a breeder should do, bare minimum, to be considered responsible. And when we are presented with a breeder who does not meet these minimums we feel it is in the best interest of the potential puppy buyer to point that out. It is not bullying. It has nothing to do with competition. It has EVERYTHING to do with educating the public so as not to make the same mistakes many of here at GRF have ourselves made before we were educated.


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## AmbikaGR

Braccarius said:


> I suddenly get the suspicion we're being baited on this and I encourage everybody to check their emotion on this subject and just drop this thread entirely. There are numerous "new" posters including the thread starter coming out of the woodwork.



I think that would be totally wrong way to go. If I was someone looking for info on the breeder being discussed and I read this thred and it suddenly just ended without the questions at the heart of the matter being answered, and the person who could answer those questions being here, as very odd. Might even it take as to mean "Well I quess it was really not that important." And it really is.


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## LibertyME

sorry...not a breeder -  ...just love the breed..




pegburns said:


> @LibertyMe....I've just joined this group and am totally turned off by the childish, immature bullying attitudes of this group.....that comment was not necessary, as are most of the nasty comments on this blog....I understand frustration encountered when you don't think a breeder is being honest, but stooping to personal, mocking comments is not necessary... rest assured, even if you breed the most wonderful Goldens ever, an increasingly growing group of people reading these blogs would not ever consider buying from you...there are other breeders out there just as good who have integrity, which is sorely lacking in this group...frequent comments about non-breeders inability to comprehend what is expected of breeders is an arrogant attack; I am disgusted and anyone who states this is not personal is delusional.


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## Braccarius

AmbikaGR said:


> I think that would be totally wrong way to go. If I was someone looking for info on the breeder being discussed and I read this thred and it suddenly just ended without the questions at the heart of the matter being answered, and the person who could answer those questions being here, as very odd. Might even it take as to mean "Well I quess it was really not that important." And it really is.


Post opinion as opinion and fact as fact. Just avoid being vexatious or defamatory as this is the FIRST thing you find when you type in this breeders name in google.


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## Pointgold

There are SO many questions - some that really should not be difficult to answer, and have been asked. Many times. And others tht are just, well, "odd". On the Cynazar website, it was posted that Ch Cynazar's LA Woman was the #2 Female. Nothing about the bitch having been a Shar Pei, it lead one to believe this was a Golden. After some of the questions asked here, that has now been changed to correctly identify her as a Shar Pei. Now, in addition, the sites states that the owner finished 6 dogs. In the AKC database, there are 37 Shar Pei listed with the Cynazar prefix. Only ONE had any title at all - the LA Woman bitch. Oddly, there are 3 Shar Pei listed in the database under ILP numbers/ Their names are the same as 3 listed with full registration numbers, the only difference bing the prefix as Cynazar, or, Cynazar's, which is odd. 
So, what other 5 dogs were shown to championships? And what system ranked the LA Woman bitch as #2? (I was showing quite few Shar Pei for a well respected breeder up here throughout the early 90's, and did finish several, just as an aside.) People who build websites should be very aware that information is pretty easy to verify. 
Being honest is really just SO much easier.


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## Ljilly28

The breeders here really do apply high standards to everyone. I am sorry people want to join the board just to defend poor practices and protocols rather than set high goals for themselves. I hope they will read other threads and see that this breeder is not being attacked personally. 

As an aside, I do not believe I have ever heard anyone single out LibertyMe before for anything except profuse thanks for her support and help, and she has been on this board for so long. To me, that is a sign of people not being willing to grow, learn, and educate themselves. She is a very diplomatic member of GRF, and very caring about the breed.


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## Ljilly28

PeytonsMommy said:


> Please understand it is very difficult for us to see the breeder criticized who brought our family members to us. I have only had Peyton for a year and a half, but love him like a child!
> .


I want to say how much I empathize with this. I, and two of my past dog's breeders, have taken their share of hits on GRF, and it does hurt. However, it also educates, and takes nothing away from that wonderful family member sleeping on your feet! It takes a long time to become educated about the ethics of purebred dog breeding, and some of it stings. I have surely been there. In the end, I have battled with myself not to get so defensive that I cannot learn. Some of this defending of iffy practices is like putting your hands over your ears and eyes- see no evil, hear no evil- because you want to believe that if you love your dog, your dog is from a breeder respected by her peers. I spent a solid year passionately defending a breeder about whom the GRF was correct all the time, and now it just makes me sad with myself and sheepish. The important thing is the fluidity of the situation. A breeder may change for the better, may embrace the GRCA's code of ethics from now on, etc.


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## pegburns

@Bracarius.....your post just proved my point...."YOU have the audacity to question the integrity of a board whose SOLE INTEREST is the betterment of the breed? "...."YOU" in capital letters as if I am inferior to you??!!!.....you don't even know me!!...maybe we should turn the tables and ask for testimonials from your buyers.....all of them satisfied?...NEVER any problems??


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## pegburns

@Pointgold....I don't have to answer any of your questions and this will be my last post on this forum as I find it offensive.....you asked what I was told about PU...first of all, I have researched PU for myself since I have been a long time owner of Golden Retrievers.....what Cynazar advised me was that PU has been determined to be a serious heriditary condition in GR which can lead to cataracts, glaucoma, and eventually blindness and greatly affect a dog's quality of life.... even though I was provided with clearances, it would be necessary for me to have my dog examined yearly for life since this a disease that usually presents later in the GR's life and it would be preferrable if my dog was examined by a certified opthamologist.


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## Pointgold

pegburns said:


> @Pointgold....I don't have to answer any of your questions and this will be my last post on this forum as I find it offensive.....you asked what I was told about PU...first of all, I have researched PU for myself since I have been a long time owner of Golden Retrievers.....what Cynazar advised me was that PU has been determined to be a serious heriditary condition in GR which can lead to cataracts, glaucoma, and eventually blindness and greatly affect a dog's quality of life.... even though I was provided with clearances, it would be necessary for me to have my dog examined yearly for life since this a disease that usually presents later in the GR's life and it would be preferrable if my dog was examined by a certified opthamologist.


 
Interesting. I've read this.


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## HiTideGoldens

pegburns said:


> @Bracarius.....your post just proved my point...."YOU have the audacity to question the integrity of a board whose SOLE INTEREST is the betterment of the breed? "...."YOU" in capital letters as if I am inferior to you??!!!.....you don't even know me!!...maybe we should turn the tables and ask for testimonials from your buyers.....all of them satisfied?...NEVER any problems??


I don't think anyone is saying that you're inferior. Quite the opposite, actually. They're saying that the buyers on coming on here to defend their dogs - which is a natural thing to do. But that you may not be well versed in the GRCA code of ethics and what is required to be considered an ethical breeder. But the point is, the BREEDER is the issue, not you or your dog. That's the peril of message boards and communicating via typed word in general. If you can take breath and read what Amibika, PointGold and others are saying - they're right. It is not a dig at your dog at all, who I'm sure is a lovely member of your family, but they ARE right.


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## Braccarius

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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## BeauShel

copying this thread into this one for future questions:
http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/golden-retrievers-main-discussion/58864-new-jersey-breeders.html


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## Ljilly28

Braccarius said:


> Obviously you're under the mistaken assumption that we must all be competing breeders trying to slice out a piece of the "puppy pie" for ourselves. This couldn't be further from the truth. I don't breed because I cannot afford the emotional toll nor the finances of parading champions between competitons and vetinarians for the appropriate clearances. I do however have great respect for those who do and contempt for those who pretend to.


Wow, I wish I'd written this. It really sums up something that was bothering me- the assumption that everyone here is writing out of a profit motive. As Ambika said, 95 percent of us own goldens but will never, ever breed a puppy. As for the breeders here, it is very hard to land a pup from one of them, and the competition, lol, is between buyers to prove themselves ideal homes more than between the breeders and anyone else. Not one breeder on GRF is in competition of any kind with the subject of this thread. Some people contributing rescue and foster goldens from high volume breeders, and know first hand how sad it is to mass produce pups or to breed them with risky health practices.


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## nixietink

Ljilly28 said:


> Wow, I wish I'd written this. It really sums up something that was bothering me- the assumption that everyone here is writing out of a profit motive. As Ambika said, 95 percent of us own goldens but will never, ever breed a puppy. As for the breeders here, it is very hard to land a pup from one of them, and the competition, lol, is between buyers to prove themselves ideal homes more than between the breeders and anyone else. Not one breeder on GRF is in competition of any kind with the subject of this thread. Some people contributing rescue and foster goldens from high volume breeders, and know first hand how sad it is to mass produce pups or to breed them with risky health practices.


Thank you Jill! I COMPLETELY agree with this. :yes:


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## graceerestinpeace

Hi yall. okay so i am on my second dog with cynazar. We just bought our second puppy jack only about a month ago and hes 5 months ago. He is a wonderful dog. I do not know anything about showing. My family and I love dogs as companions. I will tell you do not base any of your opinions on their site. Visit them. Talk to them. They had all the papers on Jack and our previous dog gracee who we lost this past Septemeber. The first thing I did was contact Jenne. She is wonderful as well as he mother. They are completely honest and I do not have any complaints. Jack is georgous. Absolutely georgous. I recomend that any one who wants a beautiful golden to talk to Jenne in one way shape or form. She gets back to you with in the same day most of the time. Shes completely helpful. As for the medical standards, both dogs i had were cleared for everything. My vet cleared them both. Gracee had to have surgery once because she liked stick, but then again what kind of dog doesnt? anyway she poked herself in the eye with a stick. Only problem i have ever had. They are incredibly intelligent. Jack is almost completely housebroken and he is 5 months old. Gracee and Jack have both had completely friendly temperments. They were truely the best behaved and well mannered dogs i have ever met. I ercomended cynazar to my friends. They know have a dog of their own, Max, who is turned 7 months old today. Housebroken already. No complaints. CONTACT JENNE!!! TRUST ME!!!


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## HiTideGoldens

You're missing the point. Completely missing the point. Of course you love your dog and think your dog is great. We all love our dogs. But that does not mean that your dog came from a reputable breeder who adheres to the GRCA code of ethics.


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## Pointgold

graceerestinpeace said:


> Hi yall. okay so i am on my second dog with cynazar. We just bought our second puppy jack only about a month ago and hes 5 months ago. He is a wonderful dog. I do not know anything about showing. My family and I love dogs as companions. I will tell you do not base any of your opinions on their site. Visit them. Talk to them. They had all the papers on Jack and our previous dog gracee who we lost this past Septemeber. The first thing I did was contact Jenne. She is wonderful as well as he mother. They are completely honest and I do not have any complaints. Jack is georgous. Absolutely georgous. I recomend that any one who wants a beautiful golden to talk to Jenne in one way shape or form. She gets back to you with in the same day most of the time. Shes completely helpful. As for the medical standards, both dogs i had were cleared for everything. My vet cleared them both. Gracee had to have surgery once because she liked stick, but then again what kind of dog doesnt? anyway she poked herself in the eye with a stick. Only problem i have ever had. They are incredibly intelligent. Jack is almost completely housebroken and he is 5 months old. Gracee and Jack have both had completely friendly temperments. They were truely the best behaved and well mannered dogs i have ever met. I ercomended cynazar to my friends. They know have a dog of their own, Max, who is turned 7 months old today. Housebroken already. No complaints. CONTACT JENNE!!! TRUST ME!!!


Do you know what PU is?


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## Pointgold

graceerestinpeace said:


> Hi yall. okay so i am on my second dog with cynazar. We just bought our second puppy jack only about a month ago and hes 5 months ago. He is a wonderful dog. I do not know anything about showing. My family and I love dogs as companions. I will tell you do not base any of your opinions on their site. Visit them. Talk to them. They had all the papers on Jack and our previous dog gracee who we lost this past Septemeber. The first thing I did was contact Jenne. She is wonderful as well as he mother. They are completely honest and I do not have any complaints. Jack is georgous. Absolutely georgous. I recomend that any one who wants a beautiful golden to talk to Jenne in one way shape or form. She gets back to you with in the same day most of the time. Shes completely helpful. As for the medical standards, both dogs i had were cleared for everything. My vet cleared them both. Gracee had to have surgery once because she liked stick, but then again what kind of dog doesnt? anyway she poked herself in the eye with a stick. Only problem i have ever had. They are incredibly intelligent. Jack is almost completely housebroken and he is 5 months old. Gracee and Jack have both had completely friendly temperments. They were truely the best behaved and well mannered dogs i have ever met. I ercomended cynazar to my friends. They know have a dog of their own, Max, who is turned 7 months old today. Housebroken already. No complaints. CONTACT JENNE!!! TRUST ME!!!


Be honest, here...who contacted you and asked you to come here and post this? Because this surely is not random. I get that you love your doggie. We all do. I think it is possible, though, that you don't know what is meant by clearances...do you?


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## pegburns

@Pointgold....you asked what I was told about PU by the breeder and I answered you.....I also read the info in my answer in many articles over the year as well as in the info supplied by the breeder and my vet....all of you continue to state that this is not about the owners but about the breeder, yet you continue to direct your questions and comments to the owners, as in the remark to gracerestinpeace about clearances.....if you feel this breeder is not being honest, investigate and research them and only then state the facts...right now all you have is conjecture and suspicions and your personal opinions....a reputation is at stake here so I think it's only fair to do due diligence....BTW, I came to this site after a friend of mine looking for a breeder came across this blog and saw the Cynazar name and told me about it...I thought it was an informational site.


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## Pointgold

pegburns said:


> @Pointgold....you asked what I was told about PU by the breeder and I answered you.....I also read the info in my answer in many articles over the year as well as in the info supplied by the breeder and my vet....all of you continue to state that this is not about the owners but about the breeder, yet you continue to direct your questions and comments to the owners, as in the remark to gracerestinpeace about clearances.....if you feel this breeder is not being honest, investigate and research them and only then state the facts...right now all you have is conjecture and suspicions and your personal opinions....a reputation is at stake here so I think it's only fair to do due diligence....BTW, I came to this site after a friend of mine looking for a breeder came across this blog and saw the Cynazar name and told me about it...I thought it was an informational site.


 
Well, I have to be honest. I am having a difficult time believing that you were informed about PU by the breeder. If it were so, you would have very likely answered the question right away. Additionally, the breeder is not doing CERFs, and were she well informed about the disease, they'd be on there. And, it would most assuredly be mentioned on her oh so comprehensive web site. As for my comment about clearances, I do wuestion whether these puppy buyers actually do know what is being referred to, because whatever they are supposedly being shown is certainly not in the databases, as would be if they were done.
This conclusion is arrived after doing investigation and research, in fact. Additionally, the breeder changes her website to reflect what she is challenged about here on this forum. Those are the facts. The databases (OFA, CERF, and AKC) do not lie.


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## Pointgold

IS Cynazar a NJ breeder, or a PA breeder? She lists Starucca, PA as her location, with New Brunswick, NJ "on certain dates".


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## AmbikaGR

Welcome to the GRF!!! :wavey:
I am sorry to hear you lost your Gracee last September. It is wonderful that Jack is gorgeous but there iis much more to breeding dogs than just breeding "absolutely gorgeous" dogs. And although I may not know who your vet is I can assure you he is not qualified to provide them with the clearances we speak about here with regard to the Gaolden Retriever Club of America's Code of Ethics. Here is a link to a site to read them in their entirety. 
Golden Retriever Club of America - The GRCA Club
As far as contacting Jenne, she has been here to this very thread and read the questions and concerns many have on this forum with her breeding practices. She has gone as far to make some changes to her website to reflect that fact. But she chooses not to reply to them. She prefers to have her puppy people come here and give testimonials on her behave, but still no answers. 
And finally, we do trust you to be honest and a loving pet owner. However due to this breeder's reluctance to provide facts and answers it casts her in a even more dim light to many of us here.




graceerestinpeace said:


> Hi yall. okay so i am on my second dog with cynazar. We just bought our second puppy jack only about a month ago and hes 5 months ago. He is a wonderful dog. I do not know anything about showing. My family and I love dogs as companions. I will tell you do not base any of your opinions on their site. Visit them. Talk to them. They had all the papers on Jack and our previous dog gracee who we lost this past Septemeber. The first thing I did was contact Jenne. She is wonderful as well as he mother. They are completely honest and I do not have any complaints. Jack is georgous. Absolutely georgous. I recomend that any one who wants a beautiful golden to talk to Jenne in one way shape or form. She gets back to you with in the same day most of the time. Shes completely helpful. As for the medical standards, both dogs i had were cleared for everything. My vet cleared them both. Gracee had to have surgery once because she liked stick, but then again what kind of dog doesnt? anyway she poked herself in the eye with a stick. Only problem i have ever had. They are incredibly intelligent. Jack is almost completely housebroken and he is 5 months old. Gracee and Jack have both had completely friendly temperments. They were truely the best behaved and well mannered dogs i have ever met. I ercomended cynazar to my friends. They know have a dog of their own, Max, who is turned 7 months old today. Housebroken already. No complaints. CONTACT JENNE!!! TRUST ME!!!


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## Griffyn'sMom

:doh:Hold on - I see a thread asking about NJ breeders has been locked and is referred to this thread. 

UMMMMMM - This is not the only Golden Breeder in NJ folks! I've had a couple of people PMing me asking about breeders because they can't get a good suggestion on this forum. 

Good Golly Miss Molly! This thread looks like a bad case of PMS! :yuck:


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## arcane

this question is directed to the puppy purchasers raving about this breeder and her establishement, Do you not have an issue with 20-30 dogs (?)  (I am speculating here b/c the breeder herself has not answered the question that has been asked numerous times!) NUMEROUS puppies & adults for sale at one given time? the sheer volume astounds me! I have 7 dogs and find it hard to keep up...this makes my head spin:doh::doh::doh:


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## Griffyn'sMom

That wouldn't be a breeder I would consider so case closed for me.


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## Pointgold

I still wanna know how purchasing a full registration for a thousand bucks additional makes it GUARANTEED that the dog will pass all clearances.
Because if that is the case, I will start selling every single dog I ever produce with FULL REGISTRATION. Shoot, I won't even charge the extra grand. I'll more than make it up not having to do clearances, since evidently it has to do with the registration rather than genetics.


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## LibertyME

I don't understand why a person should not base 'any' of their opinions on their website? 
It is the image they have carefully chosen to present to the public... 
It is their opportunity to introduce themselves and show the the value and integrity of their breeding program. 
If I'm going to make a major purchase I do the research first before I look for a salesman.
...no one forces any breeder or any person to have a web page...



graceerestinpeace said:


> Hi yall. okay so i am on my second dog with cynazar. We just bought our second puppy jack only about a month ago and hes 5 months ago. He is a wonderful dog. I do not know anything about showing. My family and I love dogs as companions. *I will tell you do not base any of your opinions on their site*. Visit them. Talk to them. They had all the papers on Jack and our previous dog gracee who we lost this past Septemeber. The first thing I did was contact Jenne. She is wonderful as well as he mother. They are completely honest and I do not have any complaints. Jack is georgous. Absolutely georgous. I recomend that any one who wants a beautiful golden to talk to Jenne in one way shape or form. She gets back to you with in the same day most of the time. Shes completely helpful. As for the medical standards, both dogs i had were cleared for everything. My vet cleared them both. Gracee had to have surgery once because she liked stick, but then again what kind of dog doesnt? anyway she poked herself in the eye with a stick. Only problem i have ever had. They are incredibly intelligent. Jack is almost completely housebroken and he is 5 months old. Gracee and Jack have both had completely friendly temperments. They were truely the best behaved and well mannered dogs i have ever met. I ercomended cynazar to my friends. They know have a dog of their own, Max, who is turned 7 months old today. Housebroken already. No complaints. CONTACT JENNE!!! TRUST ME!!!


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## BeauShel

Griffyn'sMom said:


> :doh:Hold on - I see a thread asking about NJ breeders has been locked and is referred to this thread.
> 
> UMMMMMM - This is not the only Golden Breeder in NJ folks! I've had a couple of people PMing me asking about breeders because they can't get a good suggestion on this forum.
> 
> Good Golly Miss Molly! This thread looks like a bad case of PMS! :yuck:


That other thread was closed because it was turning into almost an identical thread about this breeder so I referred people that would have questions about that breeder to come here. I will see if there is another thread about NJ breeders out there and if not, I will start one.


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## pegburns

@Pointgold....I take offense at being told I'm not being truthful.....I have no reason to lie...I am not a breeder but I am an intelligent person who has had GR all my life....maybe it's hard for you to believe, but there are people besides yourself who are able to assimilate knowledge and understand it...as I stated before, when I went to see the breeder, I had a list of questions based on my experiences with my other GR and the breeder answered them to my satisfaction.... I saw 6 puppies on the premises as well as the parents of the puppies....again, I only can attest to what I was told and what I personally saw when I bought my dog......please be careful when you state on a public blog that you have trouble believing someone....after all, it's a leap of faith to believe anything posted by someone you don't know.....enough badgering the owners of Cynazar dogs who came to this site to learn more about GR and found only a few bloggers who welcomed them because they had the audacity to support a breeder.


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## Cynazar Goldens

Pointgold said:


> On the Cynazar website, it was posted that Ch Cynazar's LA Woman was the #2 Female. Nothing about the bitch having been a Shar Pei, it lead one to believe this was a Golden. After some of the questions asked here, that has now been changed to correctly identify her as a Shar Pei.


I have not changed or edited that paragraph of text on the website. It has clearly stated that Bungee was a Shar Pei since the day I created the "About Us" page- that is a fact! I don't think that the way it is written is misleading at all. My mom did finish 6 Shar Pei champions- at the time AKC did not recognize the breed. Lying about information would only cause people to question our credibility, especially since information is so easily accessed over the internet. Dexie and Bungee were finished with the AKC, those who came before them were finished with the CSPCA.


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## Pointgold

Cynazar Goldens said:


> I have not changed or edited that paragraph of text on the website. It has clearly stated that Bungee was a Shar Pei since the day I created the "About Us" page- that is a fact! I don't think that the way it is written is misleading at all. My mom did finish 6 Shar Pei champions- at the time AKC did not recognize the breed. Lying about information would only cause people to question our credibility, especially since information is so easily accessed over the internet. Dexie and Bungee were finished with the AKC, those who came before them were finished with the CSPCA.


I know that the breed was gaining AKC recognition in 1993, which is likely why 3 or 4 of the dogs have both ILP numbers and AKC reg numbers. Only one is listed as a champion. When I first looked at your site, the claim of #2 FEMALE was not clearly identified on the whatever pageI saw it, perhaps the front? as being a Shar Pei, or else I would not have questioned it. A lot has been edited on your site, based on questions here. Credibility regarding clearances is of much more concern to me. The other is just "interesting".


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## Pointgold

pegburns said:


> @Pointgold....I take offense at being told I'm not being truthful.....I have no reason to lie...I am not a breeder but I am an intelligent person who has had GR all my life....maybe it's hard for you to believe, but there are people besides yourself who are able to assimilate knowledge and understand it...as I stated before, when I went to see the breeder, I had a list of questions based on my experiences with my other GR and the breeder answered them to my satisfaction.... I saw 6 puppies on the premises as well as the parents of the puppies....again, I only can attest to what I was told and what I personally saw when I bought my dog......please be careful when you state on a public blog that you have trouble believing someone....after all, it's a leap of faith to believe anything posted by someone you don't know.....enough badgering the owners of Cynazar dogs who came to this site to learn more about GR and found only a few bloggers who welcomed them because they had the audacity to support a breeder.


It's how I feel. Because it is a leap of faith to believe something posted by someone I don't know. 
And because I know how to verify claims of clearances.
As for Cynazar owners coming her to learn more about GR's, I've not seen that... they've all come to praise the breeder, and already know everything there is to know about clearances, apparently, as well as genetic disease issues.


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## Cynazar Goldens

Pointgold said:


> The breeder is not doing CERFs


We are doing CERFs- Your statement is false. We need to have them done not only to show to our puppy owners that each of our dogs are healthy, but to verify for our own knowledge that we are breeding the best dogs possible. The only thing you can fault us on is for not sending each form into the online database. However, after reading the constructive critisism in this blog, I am going to send the forms in to avoid any further suspicion. I greatly appreciate constructive critisism and helpful advice, but do not appreciate those who are trying to discredit our breeding program by saying that we don't do complete our clearances, that we don't socialize our dogs properly, or that we ever attempted to "dupe" a family into buying one of our puppies. These are all false.


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## Pointgold

Cynazar Goldens said:


> We are doing CERFs- Your statement is false. We need to have them done not only to show to our puppy owners that each of our dogs are healthy, but to verify for our own knowledge that we are breeding the best dogs possible. The only thing you can fault us on is for not sending each form into the online database. However, after reading the constructive critisism in this blog, I am going to send the forms in to avoid any further suspicion. I greatly appreciate constructive critisism and helpful advice, but do not appreciate those who are trying to discredit our breeding program by saying that we don't do complete our clearances, that we don't socialize our dogs properly, or that we ever attempted to "dupe" a family into buying one of our puppies. These are all false.


I've never said that anyone was "duped" into buying a dog. However, there is a patently obviously lack of Cynazar dogs in the clearance databases... 
I've not mentioned the socialization, but valid questions were asked about the number of dogs, and when there is a high number, proper care and socialization can certainly be an issue.
How do you justify charging a thousand dollars _additional_ for full registration, and GUARANTEE that a dog will pass all clearances only if full registration is purchased? This is above the price being asked, which is frankly, out of line with reasonable prices for puppies out of champion sire and dam - your dogs have no titles, in any venue. 
Who evaluates the dogs and has the experience and credibility to deem a dog show quality? The "eye for perfection" as you call it...


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## Pointgold

Cynazar Goldens said:


> We are doing CERFs- Your statement is false. We need to have them done not only to show to our puppy owners that each of our dogs are healthy, but to verify for our own knowledge that we are breeding the best dogs possible. The only thing you can fault us on is for not sending each form into the online database. However, after reading the constructive critisism in this blog, I am going to send the forms in to avoid any further suspicion. I greatly appreciate constructive critisism and helpful advice, but do not appreciate those who are trying to discredit our breeding program by saying that we don't do complete our clearances, that we don't socialize our dogs properly, or that we ever attempted to "dupe" a family into buying one of our puppies. These are all false.


 
No. The statement is NOT false. You may be doing eye exams, but unless they are assigned a number, they are not CERF.


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## Cynazar Goldens

Pointgold said:


> IS Cynazar a NJ breeder, or a PA breeder? She lists Starucca, PA as her location, with New Brunswick, NJ "on certain dates".


This is a good question! My mother, Cynthia, began her breeding program in North Brunswick, NJ. She began breeding our now-favorite breed (Goldens) a little while before I was born. Several years ago, we were blessed to have the opportunity to move our family- both furry and non furry- to an amazing estate in Starrucca, PA. Since we've been here we've fallen in love with the place, and so have our Goldens!! They get a lot of cardiovascular exercise exploring the pastures, forests, mountains, trails, etc. and enjoy being able to run off the leash along side us on horse rides, which we keep with us on our property. Most of the families that own a Cynazar Golden, and many families interested in bringing one of our dogs into their lives, live much closer to our home in NJ than they do to Starrucca. For this reason, and the fact that our vets are located in NJ as well, we return often. We invite families to both locations, depending on where we are at the time.


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## Cynazar Goldens

AmbikaGR said:


> However due to this breeder's reluctance to provide facts and answers it casts her in a even more dim light to many of us here.


That is what I am here for- to answer questions. I am asked a myriad of things via email, over the phone, and in person each and every day, and answer them as truthfully and completely as I can. I see that many questions have been asked over the past 24 hours, during which I've been running errands and haven't had the chance to log on. I've actually been so busy that I've gotten a total of 6 hours sleep over the past 4 days' time (I am amazed that I am still going!!). If I were reluctant to answer questions, I would definitely not be here right now!


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## tippykayak

How many dogs do you have between the two sites, and how big is the staff that cares for them?


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## Pointgold

Cynazar Goldens said:


> That is what I am here for- to answer questions. I am asked a myriad of things via email, over the phone, and in person each and every day, and answer them as truthfully and completely as I can. I see that many questions have been asked over the past 24 hours, during which I've been running errands and haven't had the chance to log on. I've actually been so busy that I've gotten a total of 6 hours sleep over the past 4 days' time (I am amazed that I am still going!!). If I were reluctant to answer questions, I would definitely not be here!


I understand that you recently graduated. Are you actually the person who manages this breeding farm?


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## Rhapsody in Gold

Pointgold said:


> _"No, I personally have not been able to get out in the agility ring, although I would love to! I believe that I would make a wonderful professional trainer with all the experience I have training our own dogs."_
> 
> And while I have not been to medical school, I believe I would make a wonderful neurosurgeon with all the experience watching Grey's Anatomy episodes that I have!


Pointgold, I don't know you but I follow your guidance because I appreciate your insight, perspective, and knowledge about the breed. However, your sarcasm is so unnecessary. You lose credibilty with posts like the one noted above. And your influence is strong - you have a responsibility, don't you think? It is so unfortunate that the post that followed your sarcastic post was a "LMAO" post. I really didn't want to be part of this forum reading that. That kind of behavior is so unprofessional - it is so below you.

Would you talk to another breeder this way in person? Instead of cross-examining her, why not give her a call and share with her what you know? If you know what has to be done, why not offer to mentor her? If you are truly for the betterment of the breed, and I do believe you are, then help her. Perhaps you or one of the breeders here could mentor Jenne. She is just 18 years old - goodness. Why not re-direct the energy here in a positive way?


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## Cynazar Goldens

Pointgold said:


> I've not mentioned the socialization, but valid questions were asked about the number of dogs, and when there is a high number, proper care and socialization can certainly be an issue.
> .....
> How do you justify charging a thousand dollars _additional_ for full registration, and GUARANTEE that a dog will pass all clearances only if full registration is purchased?
> .....
> Who evaluates the dogs and has the experience and credibility to deem a dog show quality? The "eye for perfection" as you call it...


You are right, when someone is overwhelmed with too many dogs, there is no way that a person is able to spend time with all of his or her dogs daily. At the moment, I have every single dog that we have available posted on the website, for everyone's eyes to see, no exceptions. Other than the dogs for sale, we have our breeding girls and boys. I literally live with our dogs, and show them all of my attention every day, even if it's only for a few hours at a time. So does the rest of my family, and family friends (who absolutely love to come over). Our dogs may get muddy paws, and smell like 'wet dog' after running in the rain, but we always take care of each of them extremely well, including immediate medical attention if and when unexpected accidents occur.

Someone coming to buy a full registration dog is mostly concerned that the dog they purchase will pass all clearances at the age of two. Many breeders are surprised that we are so confident that our dogs will pass with flying colors, that we are willing to actually guarantee their clearances. We stand firmly behind the health of all of our puppies, regardless if bought under limited or full. If a problem arises, we address it accordingly. We are there for our Cynazar Golden owners, whether the puppy was sold under limited or full. Furthermore, we sell dogs under full registrations on a very limited basis. Full registration may be an option for several dogs on the website, but they are almost always sold under a limited. We're very picky as far as who we sell full registrations to.

My mother, Cynthia, has an excellent "eye for perfection", as we call it. As you can see by our dogs, she's very good at determining what a quality dog is should look like. She did judge mat shows at one point. It takes talent to be able to discern the good characteristics of the Golden Retriever from those that are incorrect. I suppose that it is personal opinion whether or not the dogs we breed are "beautiful", however we are very familliar with the AKC Standard and adhere as closely as possible to it.


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## Cynazar Goldens

Pointgold said:


> I still wanna know how purchasing a full registration for a thousand bucks additional makes it GUARANTEED that the dog will pass all clearances.
> Because if that is the case, I will start selling every single dog I ever produce with FULL REGISTRATION. Shoot, I won't even charge the extra grand. I'll more than make it up not having to do clearances, since evidently it has to do with the registration rather than genetics.


Please explain what you mean by this statement?
In a nut shell, the clearance guarantee states that the dog must have its clearances completed before it is to be bred, and that if it does not pass a clearance, the dog MUST be either neutered/spayed and returned to us, or returned and then neutered/spayed by us. The owner will be provided a replacement dog (of their choice) of equal value OR full credit for the dog.
Our guarantee is not an "empty promise". Furthermore, I believe that the dog's passing of clearances has everything to do with sound genetics, since we would not be able to sustain such a guarantee if we bred unhealthy dogs.


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## Cynazar Goldens

Pointgold said:


> I understand that you recently graduated.
> ....
> Are you actually the person who manages this breeding farm?


Yes, I turned 18 over the summer, and just like my mom, I have an incredible passion for breeding Golden Retrievers. I know more than your average 18 year old about canine genetics, dog care, dog behavior, the AKC Standard for the Golden Retriever, dog evaluation, whelping and caring for a litter, and the list goes on. My friends know that if they have a question about dogs, ask Jen. From the moment I was born I was with my dogs. My mom has a great photo of me in a litter of Shar Pei, crying my eyes out because they were all licking me! Of course I don't remember the Shar Pei very well since I was so young, but I can name the family trees and pedigrees of our Goldens from memory because I spent the best years of my childhood playing in the dirt with every one of them. I am EXTREMELY motivated when it comes to our dogs; they are not a "business" to me, they are my family. I am lucky that I can begin my career already immersed in what I love to do. I also love graphic design, so I take it to the heart when I hear feedback about my website.

I am co-managing the breeding program with my mom, of course. I can make suggestions, but then again my mom has the final say since she is the one with many more years of experience than I have!

On a side note- It's funny you mention "farm", because over the summer we ordered some exotic chickens (I've always wanted chickens but could never have them in NJ). The dogs LOVE watching them scratch and peck, and when we yell the name "Priscilla" to call her inside, the roosters crow!


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## BeauShel

How can you guarantee that the person that purchases a puppy from you on full registration will not breed the dog before the clearances are done and not become a backyard breeder? Because no person can guarantee once a person leaves your premises with the puppy they will stay in touch with you and do the required clearaces. Do you hold the AKC paperwork or give it when the puppy is given to the buyer? If you give the paperwork to the buyers they now can sell any future puppies as full AKC registered puppies and there is nothing really that you can do. Do you have certain requirements that potential puppy buyers do before you will give them a full registration? Do they have to have some type of breeding background? I am just trying to understand how a breeder goes about the process of allowing a person to have a full registration when the majority of breeders will not give full registration. 

Making the statement that the dog will pass all the clearances on full registrations is misleading in my opinion. It sounds like the dogs are healthier than dogs on limited clearances. And I dont care how good a breeder is, no breeder can guarantee their dogs will pass their clearances. If you get a dog you fall in love with it and just cant give it back to the breeder if it doesnt pass the clearances, especially since the clearances cannot be done until two years of age. At least the people I know coudlnt do that. Only people that are looking at dogs as a money maker and not as a family member could do that. So if a person that purchased a dog on full clearances doesnt want to give the dog up, would you refund the $1000 and have them spay or neuter the dog? Must the dog be returned to you if they can show proof the dog has been fixed? That is one of the biggest thing that really bothers me when I see breeders asking for the dogs back. Most of the breeders that I have seen that I would get a dog from would not ask for a dog back if there was a heriditary problem, they would help with the expense within reason and allow the person to keep the dog. 

I am just trying to understand why you do these things when the majority of breeders will not because they want to control who does the breeding of these dogs to help prevent overbreeding and future health problems in the breed. Our beautiful dogs already have enough issues with elbows, hips, eyes, hearts and cancers. There are so many breeders good and bad out there so the breeding needs to be done by experts. 




Cynazar Goldens said:


> Please explain what you mean by this statement?
> In a nut shell, the clearance guarantee states that the dog must have its clearances completed before it is to be bred, and that if it does not pass a clearance, the dog MUST be either neutered/spayed and returned to us, or returned and then neutered/spayed by us. The owner will be provided a replacement dog (of their choice) of equal value OR full credit for the dog.
> Our guarantee is not an "empty promise". Furthermore, I believe that the dog's passing of clearances has everything to do with sound genetics, since we would not be able to sustain such a guarantee if we bred unhealthy dogs.


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## Jo Ellen

Jenne, this might be a bit off topic but I was looking at the puppy match section of your website and noticed that you included no additional comments under "Do you have a fenced-in backyard?"

You're in Pennsylvania so you must be aware that a lot of home around here (especially central Pennsylvania) do not have fences. What is your philosophy on this and do you ever turn away potential buyers because they don't have fences? What about invisible fences? 

Ollie is beautiful, by the way. I keep going back to look at his picture, I want to play ball with him!


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## Rhapsody in Gold

Cynazar Goldens said:


> . . .My mother, Cynthia, has an excellent "eye for perfection", as we call it. As you can see by our dogs, she's very good at determining what a quality dog is should look like. She did judge mat shows at one point. It takes talent to be able to discern the good characteristics of the Golden Retriever from those that are incorrect. I suppose that it is personal opinion whether or not the dogs we breed are "beautiful", however we are very familliar with the AKC Standard and adhere as closely as possible to it.


Jenne, I hope this is helpful to you. I would give your tag line "eye for perfection" more thought. I think people who look at your website will want to know about the foundation and inspiration for Cynazar Goldens. Why not just tell the story? In terms of pictures and words on your webpage - - - less is more. Select the best pictures. Look at other websites. How is their information presented? What resonates with your heart when you look at their websites. What do you need and want to see? 

I applaud your efforts - I know you are young and are taking on a lot. The people here live and breathe Golden Retrievers and well, you seem to have the maturity to handle the questions. I encourage you to ask your own questions - learn all you can. 

Now I hope you are asleep . . . . just thinking about your Roosters


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## mybuddy

Marty's Mom said:


> Jenne, I hope this is helpful to you. I would give your tag line "eye for perfection" more thought. I think people who look at your website will want to know about the foundation and inspiration for Cynazar Goldens. Why not just tell the story? In terms of pictures and words on your webpage - - - less is more. Select the best pictures. Look at other websites. How is their information presented? What resonates with your heart when you look at their websites. What do you need and want to see?
> 
> I applaud your efforts - I know you are young and are taking on a lot. The people here live and breathe Golden Retrievers and well, you seem to have the maturity to handle the questions. I encourage you to ask your own questions - learn all you can.
> 
> Now I hope you are asleep . . . . just thinking about your Roosters


 
Ahh, that was such a sweet post...warms my heart :--heart:


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## tippykayak

Cynazar Goldens said:


> At the moment, I have every single dog that we have available posted on the website, for everyone's eyes to see, no exceptions. Other than the dogs for sale, we have our breeding girls and boys. I literally live with our dogs, and show them all of my attention every day, even if it's only for a few hours at a time.


How many dogs is that? And what other attention do they get throughout the day besides a few hours with you?


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## Ljilly28

The written word is so open to interpretation from the reader. . . I thought PG's _Grey's Anatomy_ comment was witty and extremely salient. It was not a personal attack, and it made the important point that you can't just say you would be wonderful at something that others spend years and years practicing concretely. The internet is tough, bc we read in so much of the tone. I liked the comment and thought it was clever and funny, without being mean. I also thought it was kind of PG's way of lightening up the thread, and that it was a pretty kindly response given the outlandishness of the original claim.


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## Pointgold

Cynazar Goldens said:


> You are right, when someone is overwhelmed with too many dogs, there is no way that a person is able to spend time with all of his or her dogs daily. At the moment, I have every single dog that we have available posted on the website, for everyone's eyes to see, no exceptions. Other than the dogs for sale, we have our breeding girls and boys. I literally live with our dogs, and show them all of my attention every day, even if it's only for a few hours at a time. So does the rest of my family, and family friends (who absolutely love to come over). Our dogs may get muddy paws, and smell like 'wet dog' after running in the rain, but we always take care of each of them extremely well, including immediate medical attention if and when unexpected accidents occur.
> 
> Someone coming to buy a full registration dog is mostly concerned that the dog they purchase will pass all clearances at the age of two. Many breeders are surprised that we are so confident that our dogs will pass with flying colors, that we are willing to actually guarantee their clearances. We stand firmly behind the health of all of our puppies, regardless if bought under limited or full. If a problem arises, we address it accordingly. We are there for our Cynazar Golden owners, whether the puppy was sold under limited or full. Furthermore, we sell dogs under full registrations on a very limited basis. Full registration may be an option for several dogs on the website, but they are almost always sold under a limited. We're very picky as far as who we sell full registrations to.
> 
> My mother, Cynthia, has an excellent "eye for perfection", as we call it. As you can see by our dogs, she's very good at determining what a quality dog is should look like. She did judge mat shows at one point. It takes talent to be able to discern the good characteristics of the Golden Retriever from those that are incorrect. I suppose that it is personal opinion whether or not the dogs we breed are "beautiful", however we are very familliar with the AKC Standard and adhere as closely as possible to it.


 
Well, we all like to think that our dogs are perfect, but it is proundly helpful to have an objective eye judge that "perfection". Without it, we are nothing but kennel blind. 
Your loyalty andconfidence in your mother's abilities is awesome, and admirable. However, judging mat shows iis often done by people with little or no training whatsoever in any given breed. That is a fact, and not a personal "attack" or slam. There comes a point where the "put your money where your mouth is" phrase would be appropriate, and that would certainly be the case of people selling dogs that they are claiming are show quality, when they themselves are not proving it with their own.

If so many Cynazar dogs are "passing their clearances with flying colors", why are they NOT in the databases? 
Again, how do you justify charging an extra $1000 to guarantee that that they will? Your site reads "GUARANTEED to pass all clearances only if on full registration." Perhaps it is a poor choice of wording and is not what you mean? Because as written, it is quite ludicrous. In addition to being really overpriced even _before _the addtional $1000, when you are selling a puppy/dog out of untitled parents. 
Saying that they are show quality, when they parents aren't and probably wouldn't finish is a stretch.


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## arcane

tippykayak said:


> How many dogs is that? And what other attention do they get throughout the day besides a few hours with you?


I still do not see an answer to this simple question :no: nor one from the people/ purchasers who have visited the property :curtain:


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## Pointgold

Marty's Mom said:


> Pointgold, I don't know you but I follow your guidance because I appreciate your insight, perspective, and knowledge about the breed. However, your sarcasm is so unnecessary. You lose credibilty with posts like the one noted above. And your influence is strong - you have a responsibility, don't you think? It is so unfortunate that the post that followed your sarcastic post was a "LMAO" post. I really didn't want to be part of this forum reading that. That kind of behavior is so unprofessional - it is so below you.
> 
> Would you talk to another breeder this way in person? Instead of cross-examining her, why not give her a call and share with her what you know? If you know what has to be done, why not offer to mentor her? If you are truly for the betterment of the breed, and I do believe you are, then help her. Perhaps you or one of the breeders here could mentor Jenne. She is just 18 years old - goodness. Why not re-direct the energy here in a positive way?


 
I've said nothing that I would not say to a person face to face, including another breeder. And that includes my Grey's Anatomy comment. 
These folks are so convinced that what they are doing is absolutely correct that I sincerely doubt that they are looking for mentoring. (Other than edits to their website, which do not necessarily reflect what they actually do, but what they think people want them to do...as frequently happens thanks to the internet.) Jenne's mentor is her mother. I have no doubt that Jenne, at 18 years old, is a nice girl, and believes that she is doing all the right things.


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## pegburns

@MartysMOM....FINALLY, someone with integrity and professionalism!!!!!.....I am so turned off by the posts on this blog by Pointgold especially but also by tippykayak and AmbikaGR.....how they are handling their "questions" about another breeder is clearly disgusting.....I am a Cynazar Golden owner and feel belittled and insulted by them simply because I supported my dog's breeder.....If I was searching for a breeder on this site and read their blogs, I would never consider them, no matter how good their reputation.....Jenne has answered many of their questions and still they continue what clearly is" bullying"....it's a shame that sarcasm and nasty, unprofessional comments are the only things I, a new member to this site, have seen from these individuals who state their main comcern is the betterment of the breed.....all they have done, in my opinion, is compromised their personal and professional reputations.


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## GoldensGirl

The tone of this thread is really very disturbing, especially since most of the issues seem to be about the design of the Cynazar web site.

Like anything else, a dog is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. That's the way capitalist economies determine value. Some people will pay more for some dogs than others would pay, since value is in the eye of the beholder/purchaser. It is not wrong to charge what the market will bear.

Failure to enter clearances in the national databases doesn't mean the clearances have not been obtained. Other parts of the GRF show people what real clearance documents look like, so those seeking puppies can recognize those documents when they see them. People who have bought Cynazar puppies assert that they have seen the clearance documents.

Does anyone have evidence of problems with the line? Dogs that die young? Dogs that have hip problems? Dogs that have eye problems? Absent such evidence, I believe it is inappropriate to assert that bad breeding practices must exist. Indeed, the absence of evidence of problems seems like a pretty good indication that the breeding program is sound. Titles don't tell us much about health.

By the way, I don't know anyone associated with Cynazar nor do I have a dog from them. I just don't like the attacks. The GRF seems prone to these flamings and they are very discouraging.


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## Rob's GRs

Since this is not even close to an area I know much about I stay out of these topics..... Rescues is more my area. Anyhow, the whole things comes down to when someone posts a question in this forum about a certain breeder, and what to look for, this board is going to give what it thinks are the top thing to cover all that. It comes down to giving you the best information for your search for a possible breeder. Does that mean you have to take the advice, of course not. Does any breeder like what may be said in any of the posts about them.... probably not. However it can be a learning tool for all involved. Some breeders may be on the right track, and some may only need a little more adjustments to their programs. Then of course there will be other breeders out there that are only in it for the money. Questions about breeders are a passionate subject here for many. 

My post here is not even directed at any breeder in this post or any person that has posted in here. My post is just clarifying what this board gives when a post is made about any breeder.


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## Pointgold

GoldensGirl said:


> The tone of this thread is really very disturbing, especially since most of the issues seem to be about the design of the Cynazar web site.
> 
> Like anything else, a dog is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. That's the way capitalist economies determine value. Some people will pay more for some dogs than others would pay, since value is in the eye of the beholder/purchaser. It is not wrong to charge what the market will bear.
> 
> Failure to enter clearances in the national databases doesn't mean the clearances have not been obtained. Other parts of the GRF show people what real clearance documents look like, so those seeking puppies can recognize those documents when they see them. People who have bought Cynazar puppies assert that they have seen the clearance documents.
> 
> Does anyone have evidence of problems with the line? Dogs that die young? Dogs that have hip problems? Dogs that have eye problems? Absent such evidence, I believe it is inappropriate to assert that bad breeding practices must exist. Indeed, the absence of evidence of problems seems like a pretty good indication that the breeding program is sound. Titles don't tell us much about health.
> 
> By the way, I don't know anyone associated with Cynazar nor do I have a dog from them. I just don't like the attacks. The GRF seems prone to these flamings and they are very discouraging.


 
It is not about the design of their website, but rather the content. And, since there are only two Cynazar dogs out of dozens and dozens in the databases, there is a question as to exactly what "clearances" are being shown. Having a dog radiographed by a practioner is not an OFA clearance. Nor is having a practitioner listen to the heart a cardiologist clearance. And having an eye exam done, even by an ACVO vet but not submitting it to CERF, is just that - an eye exam. It is not a CERF clearance. 
Yes, it is true that a dog is worth what someone is willing to pay for it, but marketing it as something that it is not, does not make it that. You should know about show quality, Golden Sail. You should also know about validity of clearances. 
As for any evidence of health issues, that is one of the reasons that the databases exist - to track such things. We don't know that that there are hip problems, but we also don't know that there are not. If you don't look for them, it doesn't mean that they don't exist. If they don't pass and one doesn't allow that information to be listed, we don't know that they do. 
This is a large part of what consititutes good breeding practices. As is proving that your dogs are _____________________ by having trained, objective adjudication. Not blindly asserting that every dog you produce is perfect. 
Questions - valid ones - have been asked, and largely ignored. When finally answered they have been vague, or even incorrect. When it takes a while for an aswer to be given, while in the meantime the person is crying foul for having even been asked, when the answer IS given, you can see how it might be easy to believe that it took that time just to find the answer - not that the answer necessarily is true.

I have seen tough questions asked, but to go so far as to say that anyone has "attacked" these people is a stretch.


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## Pointgold

Rob's GRs said:


> Since this is not even close to an area I know much about I stay out of these topics..... Rescues is more my area. Anyhow, the whole things comes down to when someone posts a question in this forum about a certain breeder, and what to look for, this board is going to give what it thinks are the top thing to cover all that. It comes down to giving you the best information for your search for a possible breeder. Does that mean you have to take the advice, of course not. Does any breeder like what may be said in any of the posts about them.... probably not. However it can be a learning tool for all involved. Some breeders may be on the right track, and some may only need a little more adjustments to their programs. Then of course there will be other breeders out there that are only in it for the money. Questions about breeders are a passionate subject here for many.
> 
> My post here is not even directed at any breeder in this post or any person that has posted in here. My post is just clarifying what this board gives when a post is made about any breeder.


 
To clarify even further, it is NOT about the breeder, or the buyers, it IS about the breeding practices. I express my concerns about those practices regularly, and will continue to do so as the occasion arises. I question and address the _practices. _I'll also continue, I'm sure, to be called "bully", and "mean", and "offensive", and "unprofessional", etc etc. Oh well. I suppose that I could call 3 or 4 of my puppy buyers and ask them to sign on here and sing my praises and go on about how sweet and wonderful my dogs are. But, I prefer to let the databases, and recorded proof as earned by many years of hard work, speak for themselves. There are people here who know my dogs well, and others who have seen them briefly in very busy (and even adverse) conditions. they can vouch for their sound temperaments, if it ever gets down to that. I have nothing to hide, and I will not apologize for defending_ good_ breeding practices, and truth in advertising.


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## Swampcollie

When looking at or evaluating breeders, it always comes down to a simple question of ethics. 


Do they understand the intent of the rules and follow those rules or do they not? 


It really is just that simple.


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## GoldensGirl

Pointgold said:


> It is not about the design of their website, but rather the content. And, since there are only two Cynazar dogs out of dozens and dozens in the databases, there is a question as to exactly what "clearances" are being shown. Having a dog radiographed by a practioner is not an OFA clearance. Nor is having a practitioner listen to the heart a cardiologist clearance. And having an eye exam done, even by an ACVO vet but not submitting it to CERF, is just that - an eye exam. It is not a CERF clearance.
> Yes, it is true that a dog is worth what someone is willing to pay for it, but marketing it as something that it is not, does not make it that. You should know about show quality, Golden Sail. You should also know about validity of clearances.
> As for any evidence of health issues, that is one of the reasons that the databases exist - to track such things. We don't know that that there are hip problems, but we also don't know that there are not. If you don't look for them, it doesn't mean that they don't exist. If they don't pass and one doesn't allow that information to be listed, we don't know that they do.
> This is a large part of what consititutes good breeding practices. As is proving that your dogs are _____________________ by having trained, objective adjudication. Not blindly asserting that every dog you produce is perfect.
> Questions - valid ones - have been asked, and largely ignored. When finally answered they have been vague, or even incorrect. When it takes a while for an aswer to be given, while in the meantime the person is crying foul for having even been asked, when the answer IS given, you can see how it might be easy to believe that it took that time just to find the answer - not that the answer necessarily is true.
> 
> I have seen tough questions asked, but to go so far as to say that anyone has "attacked" these people is a stretch.


Thank you for the explanation. I appreciate clear reasoning about the issues, especially since I am NOT an expert and want to understand. What feels like "attack" is the tone of some posts - the choice of words and writing style that goes beyond the reasoning. In my opinion, when someone who owns a dog from a breeder feels uncomfortable discussing that fact, something has gone wrong with the thread.

The original questions came from someone who sounds a lot like me a few months ago, seeking guidance about a breeder. Helping us understand the concerns of the expert breeders is a tremendous service, and it might even help a less knowledgdable breeder improve breeding practices.

Thanks again and Happy Thanksgiving!
Lucy


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## Braccarius

pegburns said:


> @MartysMOM....FINALLY, someone with integrity and professionalism!!!!!.....I am so turned off by the posts on this blog by Pointgold especially but also by tippykayak and AmbikaGR.....how they are handling their "questions" about another breeder is clearly disgusting.....I am a Cynazar Golden owner and feel belittled and insulted by them simply because I supported my dog's breeder.....If I was searching for a breeder on this site and read their blogs, I would never consider them, no matter how good their reputation.....Jenne has answered many of their questions and still they continue what clearly is" bullying"....it's a shame that sarcasm and nasty, unprofessional comments are the only things I, a new member to this site, have seen from these individuals who state their main comcern is the betterment of the breed.....all they have done, in my opinion, is compromised their personal and professional reputations.


I find it somewhat funny that we read the same posts and have a completely opposite opinion. PointGold and AmbikaGR aren't coming off to me as "bullying" but rather posing direct questions of an individual who would be a peer. I realize people take what they want from what they read, but I always try to look at things with an unbiased view and I truly try not to be judgemental in posting. Where you find rudeness I find an opportunity to take constructive criticism and grow.

______________________________

Cynazar there are a few things about your site or breeding program that seem cumbersom and could use improvement or clarification. As someone who has purchased dogs... there are quite a few things I like to see on websites.

- If you are certifying your dogs, link to their databases on the site. I hate having to go through them on my own. In breeding pairs I like to see a scanned copy online and clickable to a .jpg so that I can see clearances directly. AKC registration and pedigreee, Hips/Elbows, Heart and Eyes are a minimum with thyroid being nice. Simply scanning the results and putting them up would alleviate a lot of the questions you've been asked. (And you've already done that for a few things... just be consistant). Always, always always send in the registrations for eyes. This will not only help future owners, but it helps the entire breed.

- I like knowing as much about the history of a kennel including championships and accolades as I can. The more accolades the closer I assume a breeder adhere's to CKC or AKC. I really don't care if both parents have a title, honestly thats the least of my concerns because there is a lot of politics in showing (at least around here). But, if you have a breeding program, you have to show to build up your bragging rights especially if you claim your dogs to be show quality. Karagold has over 50 champions listed on their site and they STILL show. If you have show quality (and I'm sure you guys do) put them out there and get titles on them. 

- List the number of dogs you have on site and total number of animals. If you have 5 dogs, 3 chickens 6 horses 2 cats and 1 gecko I want to know. Another thing I like to see is an "about us" where the staff are introduced and a blurb about how they got into breeding. You told a very nice story about how you were raised with the dogs on here.... I didn't read it on your site... put it there! 

- If there's older dogs available, I want to know why. A prime example is the schipperkee I babysit. His canter / walk is ridiculously bad... he would never have finished a championship even if the judges were paid. As such, he was sold as a pet to my friend at 2 1/2 because he couldn't make a championship. But, this was clearly posted on the website he purchased him from and he was neutered prior to arrival. If you're selling a retired female, spay her before she goes out, there are people out there who would buy an unspayed female of european descent to get pups from them. A retired bitch with 5 more litters left in her can make some unethical people a lot of money....especially if they are gorgeous and have certifications. There are "doodle" breeders who would crank out litters til the female died and sell the pups at 1200 a piece. No worries about AKC papers on a mix dog either.

- Pictures pictures pictures and more pictures. Take out your testimonials and put up pictures of happy owners with their happy dogs along with full stories. I believe what I see... and I want to see owners with their dogs at the beach when the dogs 14 years old. 

- I always read websites and when they are "all flowers" I always find myself skeptical. I once found a story on a breeders website, once upon a time, about a female who died shortly after giving birth. Trust me when I say this, the posting of that story and reading the obvious heartache made me a believer. Even the best have lowlights.... just google Birnam Wood's "Zoom", or Faera's Starlight "Star" and you'll see that very quickly.


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## Pointgold

GoldensGirl said:


> Thank you for the explanation. I appreciate clear reasoning about the issues, especially since I am NOT an expert and want to understand. What feels like "attack" is the tone of some posts - the choice of words and writing style that goes beyond the reasoning. In my opinion, when someone who owns a dog from a breeder feels uncomfortable discussing that fact, something has gone wrong with the thread.
> 
> The original questions came from someone who sounds a lot like me a few months ago, seeking guidance about a breeder. Helping us understand the concerns of the expert breeders is a tremendous service, and it might even help a less knowledgdable breeder improve breeding practices.
> 
> Thanks again and Happy Thanksgiving!
> Lucy


 
Had the questions been answered right away, and they were asked politely, albeit straight forward, then perhaps no one here would have begun to "push" for answers. They complained right away about even having been asked. _That, _imo, suggests a problem.

It's all about the dogs. Period.

Have a Happy Thanksgiving too, Lucy.


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## GoldensGirl

Pointgold said:


> Had the questions been answered right away, and they were asked politely, albeit straight forward, then perhaps no one here would have begun to "push" for answers. They complained right away about even having been asked. _That, _imo, suggests a problem.
> 
> It's all about the dogs. Period.
> 
> Have a Happy Thanksgiving too, Lucy.


I really appreciate - and share - your concern for the dogs. But it has to be about the people, too - the people who are members of the GRF and who need to be able to ask questions and offer opinions without fear of being belittled or criticised because they don't know or they disagree in a reasonable way. 

Thanks again and best wishes,
Lucy


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## pegburns

@Pointgold.....answers were given and I personally was told by you that you had a problem believing me....that IS an attack on my credibility....I have stated multiple times that I can only tell you what I experienced but that is not enough for you....tell me that you would not be offended and become defensive if told you were not truthful!.....your tone and comments have not been professional and obviously the goal now is for you to be "right" and NOT about the dogs, who from testimony of owners of dogs from this breeder, are healthy.....you have not provided any educational info for dog owners on this blog.....your main concern is that clearances have not been registered but the main concern should be whether the dogs do have clearances....since you clearly won't believe any positive info about Cynazar, it's useless to continue.....as to the question of it taking some time to answer your questions, people have lives outside this site...maybe you should try it!


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## Jo Ellen

Actually, I believe the Cynazar group has a social group on Facebook. It wouldn't surprise me at all that Cynazar puppy owners would come here on their own and want to respond to some of what has been posted here. We have a Cynazar puppy owner member here from before this thread developed and she wanted to respond, as well. I'm glad she did. 

I don't think it is fair, or maybe not even plausible given the Facebook group, to suggest that any of the testimonials have been solicited. Sure it happens, we've seen it before ... but there are other equally likely explanations for our new Cynazar members.


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## Braccarius

pegburns said:


> @Pointgold.....answers were given and I personally was told by you that you had a problem believing me....that IS an attack on my credibility....I have stated multiple times that I can only tell you what I experienced but that is not enough for you....tell me that you would not be offended and become defensive if told you were not truthful!.....your tone and comments have not been professional and obviously the goal now is for you to be "right" and NOT about the dogs, who from testimony of owners of dogs from this breeder, are healthy.....you have not provided any educational info for dog owners on this blog.....your main concern is that clearances have not been registered but the main concern should be whether the dogs do have clearances....since you clearly won't believe any positive info about Cynazar, it's useless to continue.....as to the question of it taking some time to answer your questions, people have lives outside this site...maybe you should try it!


Peg what you wrote seemed like a quote from a website. I can google anything and become an expert on it by just regurgitating what was on another site. Also, if you read the last portion of what you said, I think you've sunk far lower than anyone else.


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## pegburns

@Braccarius.....I would find that funny too except it is you, Pointgold, and AmbikarGR who are being rude and sarcastic, even demeaning.....Pointgold stated that my answer was "hard to believe".....you don't find that offensive?.....you are anything but unbiased and not judgemental....I suggest you re-read the previous posts where your "peers" tell owners they couldn't possibly understand what their issues are with the breeder.....insinuating that if you don't breed GR you can't possibly know the issues....as I stated before, your conjectures and suppositions are just that....I will be happy to agree with you when I see solid evidence that Cynazar dogs are not cleared and are not healthy.


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## pegburns

@Braccarius....You don't even know me...I am a registered nurse with a Masters in Nursing but before college I worked as a vet tech....I am an intelligent individual and have researched hundreds of articles on GR, especially genetic diseases...my 2 previous GR both were from the Gold Rush line and both contracted cancer and died at an early age....that's when I became a fanatic on researching GR heriditary diseases...how can I explain PU without sounding like an article?...PU is a hereditary disease in GR...causes cysts, cataracts, glaucoma, and eventually blindness or loss of an eye if not detected early....even detected early, very hard to treat...yearly exams are highly recommended...is that better??....to insinuate that anyone other than breeders would not know about this unless they looked it up is insulting to all GR owners....any owner taking their GR to any reputable vet would be instructed on PU....your arrogance is astounding!!...if I have sunk lower than anyone else, it's because I have been attacked simply because I supported a breeder I've had a good experience with....no where have I stated that your questions about the breeder are not warrented...it's the tone and unprofessional comments I feel are not necessary....I have been made to feel stupid, uninformed, and accused of lying about my knowledge .....simply defending myself at this point.


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## arcane

I believe this thread should be put to bed.


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## BeauShel

Let's everyone go back to their neutral corners. You will never agree. pegburns you are going to defend your friend and that is commendable but people have legitimate questions about this breeder. Questions that are not being answered. Yes you are a happy buyer and that is wonderful, you were shown the clearances but to upcoming buyers that might be interested the information is not out there. And it should be on the site without them having to drive to the breeder to see them. 

Everyone stop with the name calling. Whatever point you are trying to make gets lost with the name calling being the only thing anyone sees. The same with piling on. This can be good learning experience with everyone without all the bickering. A healthy discussion is one thing but bickering is another.


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## nixietink

I agree. We should close this thread. Some members are starting to personally attack members.

EDIT: I posted at the same time as Carol. Sorry!


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## Braccarius

arcane said:


> I believe this thread should be put to bed.


I should have taken my own advice earlier and kept my trap shut. I'm done now.


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## AmbikaGR

pegburns said:


> @Braccarius.....I would find that funny too except it is you, Pointgold, and AmbikarGR who are being rude and sarcastic, even demeaning....



Please show me where I have been rude, sarcastic or demeaning. I try to NEVER be that way but obviously something I wrote did come across that way to you and I would like to learn from my mistakes. 


Happy Thanksgiving to one and all.


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## Jo Ellen

I personally would like to hear from Jenne again. If we close the thread, we may never. 

I've had a chance to sleep on what has transpired here. A lot of hurt feelings, and not just among our Cynazar members. Our community is fractured today.


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## Rhapsody in Gold

Please accept this post in the positive spirit it is intended to be given. 

I think we all have to be mindful that everyone has their own reason for participating in this community. This forum does not exist so we can impress someone whom we have never met. If you have real knowledge to share, and I do believe many members do, then take care in the words you choose or no one will listen to you or want to participate in a discussion with you. 

Its Thanksgiving folks . . . . saying a silent prayer of gratitude for the good work so many of you do for our wonderful Goldens.


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## Pointgold

pegburns said:


> @Pointgold.....answers were given and I personally was told by you that you had a problem believing me....that IS an attack on my credibility....I have stated multiple times that I can only tell you what I experienced but that is not enough for you....tell me that you would not be offended and become defensive if told you were not truthful!.....your tone and comments have not been professional and obviously the goal now is for you to be "right" and NOT about the dogs, who from testimony of owners of dogs from this breeder, are healthy.....you have not provided any educational info for dog owners on this blog.....your main concern is that clearances have not been registered but the main concern should be whether the dogs do have clearances....since you clearly won't believe any positive info about Cynazar, it's useless to continue.....as to the question of it taking some time to answer your questions, people have lives outside this site...maybe you should try it!


That is your point of view, and you are most certainly entitled to it. However, you came in defensive from the get-go, and posted several replies that were such, without answering the questions. The time it took you to complain about having been asked at all could have been used to provide the answers. If you cannot find any "educational info" in my posts, then you are simply not looking. 

Have a nice day!


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## GoldensGirl

Marty's Mom said:


> Please accept this post in the positive spirit it is intended to be given.
> 
> I think we all have to be mindful that everyone has their own reason for participating in this community. This forum does not exist so we can impress someone whom we have never met. If you have real knowledge to share, and I do believe many members do, then take care in the words you choose or no one will listen to you or want to participate in a discussion with you.
> 
> Its Thanksgiving folks . . . . saying a silent prayer of gratitude for the good work so many of you do for our wonderful Goldens.


Well said. Thank you. 

And Happy Thanksgiving to everyone!

Lucy


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## marshab1

I'm closing this for right now. The thread can be reopened at a later time if needed or wanted.

Happy Thanksgiving to eveyone in the US and to everyone else have a great day!


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## Cynazar Goldens

BeauShel said:


> How can you guarantee that the person that purchases a puppy from you on full registration will not breed the dog before the clearances are done and not become a backyard breeder?
> ....
> Do you have certain requirements that potential puppy buyers do before you will give them a full registration?
> ....
> Do they have to have some type of breeding background?
> ....
> Making the statement that the dog will pass all the clearances on full registrations is misleading in my opinion. It sounds like the dogs are healthier than dogs on limited clearances. And I dont care how good a breeder is, no breeder can guarantee their dogs will pass their clearances. If you get a dog you fall in love with it and just cant give it back to the breeder if it doesnt pass the clearances, especially since the clearances cannot be done until two years of age.
> ....
> Our beautiful dogs already have enough issues with elbows, hips, eyes, hearts and cancers. There are so many breeders good and bad out there so the breeding needs to be done by experts.


Hi BeauShel-
Before considering selling any of our dogs under a full registration we must be sure of who we're dealing with. Any person can't just hand us $1,000 and say "make it full"- I wrote "available under full registration" on the site for organizations and ethical & respectable breeders to be able to quickly sort through what is available as far as what is potential breeding stock and what isn't. When selling a dog with a full reg., we need to have an even more involved relationship/partnership with the person than if it is just a pet home. They must be experienced, ethical, responsible, and trustworthy in their breeding practises- our pet homes spay and neuter our puppies. Anyone breeding for a reason other than for the betterment of the breed is NOT allowed one of my dogs.

The main point of the guarantee we offer for breeding dogs is offering a replacement dog if the original dog does not pass a clearance. We must take the dog back and spay/neuter it, and honor our agreement by replacing the dog free of charge (which I'd say is a pretty sweet deal- we'd be out of our minds to have that guarantee if our dogs didn't usually pass clearances). We are willing to take the financial sacrifice of replacing a dog in order to prevent a dog that did not pass its clearances from being bred.
Someone interested in buying a breeding dog under full reg. is mostly concerned with clearances- if the dog doesn't pass, the dog is useless to their program. We don't suggest the "replacement guarantee" for pets sold under a limited reg., because the families buying the puppies are interested in a companion and would NEVER consider trading in their puppy for another no matter what was wrong. It just doesn't seem to appeal to a pet owner to do something like that, however that does depend on the scenario. As a responsible breeder, we deal with any problems that arise in a manner that is appropriate to the situation- If a problem does occur, we are very reasonable, and prefer to fix the problem at hand. We won't, don't, and can't sell a puppy knowing that it has a problem. Unfortunately, they have not come up with a hip test for puppies at 8 weeks yet. We can only do our best to breed the healthiest parents to produce the healthiest puppies possible.

Dogs that we sell under a full registration must go to appropriate settings. Most of the full reg. dogs that we have sold lately have gone to assistance dog associations looking for healthy, sturdy, and mellow-tempered breeding stock for their program. They take excellent care in doing every sort of test and clearance, as well as keep their dogs healthy and well cared for. The puppies all go to training in order to learn to help those in need- they become the hands, ears, eyes, and special companion for a person who really needs it. After the dogs retire from breeding, they are placed with one of their pre-screened families from their adoption waiting list. What is even more is that we as the breeder are kept informed as to what our dogs are doing.
We also consider fellow reputable breeders who are looking for healthy outside lines in order to diversify their gene pool. We are working on breeding puppies with 100% OFA Excellents behind them in a 3 generation pedigree. That is a personal goal, a "challange" to ourselves, so to speak!
Yes, I would have to say that selling a breeding dog to someone with experience certainly matters in my book. Anyone looking to buy a breeding dog should obviously already have a well-kept breeding program and know a LOT about their breed. Not to mention, an inexperienced person attempting to whelp a litter can be DANGEROUS, take it from me! I prefer to whelp ALL of our litters, because I never leave the female unattended, I am ready to do whatever it takes in order to save a puppy's life, and I know what the signs of distress are. Knowing what to do and when to do it can save a fragile life. Even walking away for a glass of water can mean disaster, especially with a first-time mother. There is potential for her to get up and step on one, chew the cord way too short, leave them to drown in the sack, etc etc. I've seen a first time mother continue chewing the cord and take the puppy's rear paw right off- I can't tell you how horrific that experience was.

I agree with you that the breeding should be done by experts. Health is our number one concern, which should be EVERY breeders main concern. The fact that many American lines are riddled with issues is one of the reasons why we chose to bring European lines into our program related to some of the top dogs in Europe.


----------



## Cynazar Goldens

Jo Ellen said:


> Jenne, this might be a bit off topic but I was looking at the puppy match section of your website and noticed that you included no additional comments under "Do you have a fenced-in backyard?"
> 
> You're in Pennsylvania so you must be aware that a lot of home around here (especially central Pennsylvania) do not have fences. What is your philosophy on this and do you ever turn away potential buyers because they don't have fences? What about invisible fences?
> 
> Ollie is beautiful, by the way. I keep going back to look at his picture, I want to play ball with him!


Jo Ellen-
That is a great question! I believe that back yards with a fence not only keep your dog in, but they keep everything else OUT. You could have a dog trained amazingly well, and one day they could decide to go on a walk-about and get into some form of trouble. Some of our puppy owners use an invisible fence and they have no issues. One of our puppy owners has a wooden fence with an invisible fence installed on the inside of that just to keep her dog away from the edge (anything can be thrown over that can harm a dog, and knowing Goldens, they will gobble down anything!).
If someone contacts me for a puppy and they don't have a fence, my first question is "will you be putting one up?". A great compromise is buying a dog kennel run, where you can let your dog run around safely if you don't have your fence up. Another important question of mine is how tall is your fence/is it secure?
Many years ago, we placed a 5 year old dog with a nice family. It was our Golden's first night at their house and she was certainly not used to them yet. They took her out in the back yard ON A LEASH, and she was doing great. She was milling around quite unenthusiastically, so they put the leash down for one minute, not realizing that the side gate had been left open by their son. A few minutes later, she wandered out of the back yard and was standing on the street. The family ran out chasing and yelling after her, which scared her enough to cause her to run in the opposite direction right out onto the nearby freeway. That same night, a few hours after dropping her home with what we thought was a responsible family, they ended up driving her back to our house in a black trash bag, with two obvious deep ruts in it where the tires smashed her. My mom still cries when I bring this story up because she feels like it is somehow her fault. There's no way my mom could have known, and even though they seemed like a great family, that one mistake that they made cost our Golden her life. After that night, we not only double and triple check where our dogs will be going to, we DO NOT ignore our gut feeling when it's telling us "there's something not right".

Thank you for your compliment on Ollie- he is certainly something! I can't say enough about the intelligence coming from Chase and his offspring. They are little masterminds; very hard to fool ;]
Typical Golden Reaction- "Where's the ball?" Dog- "IT MUST HAVE DISSAPEARED! Now you have both hands free to pet me!!"
Intelligent Golden Reaction- "Where's the ball?" Dog- "It's in your left hand, behind your back. You must throw it now!"


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## Cynazar Goldens

tippykayak said:


> How many dogs is that? And what other attention do they get throughout the day besides a few hours with you?


Hi Brian,
At the moment we have seven puppies ages three months and four months old. They are all listed on the website.
We have twelve girls (that number is including all of our girls that are still too young to breed), and selectively choose who we will breed during which year. We like to keep our boys together for the most part, except when breeding to one of our girls (we have this nice little prefert fencing kennel area on our back porch where we pair them).

I spend a few hours -minimum- each day with them. I usually spend the entire day with them, though. I like to take them out to follow while I go horseback riding, and we will be taking them snowmobiling when the snow falls. I like to introduce new things to them every day, whether it be toys, animals, people, or foods. I love do get creative in the kitchen and can't get enough of it when I'm able to trick them into eating veggies! Throwing a head of lettuce covered in chicken broth across the yard like a football is HILLARIOUS! When they all want it, they will gulp it down as fast as they can so the other one wont take it from them. They don't realize that it's lettuce! No, I don't feed them lettuce and other various plants every day, but I like to spice things up a bit. I am in the process of working with each dog individually on "being nice to the chickens". Unfortunately, once the chicken starts making a run for it, they will chase after it. So far I've taught them not to clamp down on them, at least! Something that has worked for me is tying a 5-knotted rag rope (you know, those extra long ones you see in Petco for a rediculous amount of money LOL) to a rope, and hang it from up high. Then, just swing it as hard as you can and it goes flying in the other direction! Lots of tug-of-war fun with that (not to mention it never gets dirty since it doesn't touch the ground!). I am searching for an obedience set so I can add that into my fun list of dog activities as well. In the summer some of our dogs like getting hosed down, so I'll get out there with a bathing suit and have some fun with them! I've taken them swimming in our lakes- can't keep a Golden out of the water! I sometimes work with them in harnesses because I have this fantasy of having a Golden-drawn charriot ;]. I'll hook two or three of them up to a little wagon and put another one in the wagon bed.. that takes a little practise to keep the rider in his seat, though. I really do have endless fun with them.
When we're all tired I literally monkey around in their fur, inspecting them from head to toe, looking inside their mouths, between their toes, on their bellies, giving a doggy massage sometimes. (One of my other passions is my goal of becoming a chiropractor, whether it be strictly animal, or human as well.) These are some of the things I like to do with them- then there is what my mom does, the rest of my family, my friends, and the people who come to see our puppies too! Also, my mom's the professional groomer, so she's the one I call when someone gets into a bush full of burrs or some tree sap. With all that fur, someone's gotta be a groomer around here! Haha
When we're in NJ I find it much easier to take them along in the car when we go places, walk them around the neighborhood (this is where I find it easiest to leashbreak them), and get the new puppies used to the sounds of the loudspeakers and traffic (we live near a school- the announcements go off in the early morning, and the home games can get a little crazy at night.). Oh yes, and the 3 hour ride back and forth from NJ to PA gets them used to long car trips as well.
I hope I answered your question! :]


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## Cynazar Goldens

arcane said:


> I still do not see an answer to this simple question :no: nor one from the people/ purchasers who have visited the property :curtain:


Hi Arcane,
I just answered that question. Forgive me if I was unable to answer it while the forum was closed- I am the one who requested that it be re-opened. Many of our puppy owners have visited our estate in PA- You are more than welcome to visit as well! We love to give a tour of the place- it is a bit over the top and astonishing (even or us, and we've been living here for years!) Haha :]


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## Cynazar Goldens

Pointgold said:


> I've said nothing that I would not say to a person face to face, including another breeder. And that includes my Grey's Anatomy comment.
> These folks are so convinced that what they are doing is absolutely correct that I sincerely doubt that they are looking for mentoring. (Other than edits to their website, which do not necessarily reflect what they actually do, but what they think people want them to do...as frequently happens thanks to the internet.) Jenne's mentor is her mother. I have no doubt that Jenne, at 18 years old, is a nice girl, and believes that she is doing all the right things.


Hi Laura,
I believe that we've got to be doing something right in order to be getting great results! However, I am not about to say that I know every last thing there is to know about breeding. Anyone who says that is a fool. I am always open to tips and suggestions, and greatly appreciate the help! I believe that a person who is gives you good advice is trying to look out for you.


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## Cynazar Goldens

GoldensGirl said:


> Indeed, the absence of evidence of problems seems like a pretty good indication that the breeding program is sound.


Just wanted to say that I appreciate your post and thank you for pointing out the obvious!

I just want to tell everyone here- *When I brought this thread to the attention of my cynazar owners, I showed it to ALL of them, including those few who bought puppies that later developed a problem.* Every breeder will run into some sort of problem eventually- one that tells you that they've never had a problem is lying.
I did not "summon forth my most loyal puppy owners" to defend me, I asked everyone to give their HONEST OPINION of our dogs. I did this because I believe that I could probably sit here answering questions forever and get nowhere, but what good is that if nobody hears from actual Cynazar owners?
This forum is open to everyone who wants to sign up and talk! :]


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## nixietink

How many males do you have?


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## Cynazar Goldens

Pointgold said:


> Having a dog radiographed by a practioner is not an OFA clearance. Nor is having a practitioner listen to the heart a cardiologist clearance. And having an eye exam done, even by an ACVO vet but not submitting it to CERF, is just that - an eye exam. It is not a CERF clearance.
> ....
> Not blindly asserting that every dog you produce is perfect.
> ....
> Questions - valid ones - have been asked, and largely ignored. When finally answered they have been vague, or even incorrect.


Pointgold-
All of our breeding dogs, past and present, have their OFA's. Just go to OFFA.org and see for yourself. We have all of our cardio clearances- we don't just "take them in for a listen" from any old vet. And, because of the advice you and others have given me, I am sending every eye certificate I have into the CERF database so that I can silence everyone who is accusing me of not doing our necessary clearances.
I have never said that every one of our dogs is perfect- how could one say such a thing? "An Eye For Perfection" means that our goal is perfection, not that our dogs are "perfect".
Now about questions- I am obviously making an effort to answer each question asked. I do not live here in this forum- I have a pile of things to do each day, both dog and non-dog related. If it takes me a little while to get back here and answer the long list of questions, I apologize. Furthermore, this forum had been closed for several days, making it impossible for me to post! I requested that it be re-opened so that I could have the chance to answer everything. If you need more clarification on an answer I give, please just ask!


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## Cynazar Goldens

Pointgold said:


> ....
> Oh well. I suppose that I could call 3 or 4 of my puppy buyers and ask them to sign on here and sing my praises and go on about how sweet and wonderful my dogs are. But, I prefer to let the databases, and recorded proof as earned by many years of hard work, speak for themselves. There are people here who know my dogs well, and others who have seen them briefly in very busy (and even adverse) conditions. they can vouch for their sound temperaments, if it ever gets down to that. I have nothing to hide, and I will not apologize for defending_ good_ breeding practices, and truth in advertising.


If this is what you think I did - call three or four of my puppy owners to come praise our dogs - then you are wrong. I brought this thread to the attention of ALL of my puppy owners, not just the ones that I'm "close" with.
See our OFA records- they are there. I am growing tired of debating over the CERF's, so I will let you know once they are posted in the CERF database. We have worked hard for many years to get where we are, too. The Golden Retriever is our only breed, and we try to the best of our abilities to produce the best puppies possible.
I have nothing to hide either, and I believe that there should be more people defending good breeding practices. I am not falsely advertising any of our puppies on the site. Also, I don't doubt you that you must have wonderful dogs. I cannot insinuate that your dogs are of a low quality because I haven't heard anyone who has actually owned one of your dogs tell me anything negative about them.


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## Cynazar Goldens

Braccarius said:


> I find it somewhat funny that we read the same posts and have a completely opposite opinion. PointGold and AmbikaGR aren't coming off to me as "bullying" but rather posing direct questions of an individual who would be a peer. I realize people take what they want from what they read, but I always try to look at things with an unbiased view and I truly try not to be judgemental in posting. Where you find rudeness I find an opportunity to take constructive criticism and grow.
> 
> ______________________________
> 
> Cynazar there are a few things about your site or breeding program that seem cumbersom and could use improvement or clarification. As someone who has purchased dogs... there are quite a few things I like to see on websites.
> 
> - If you are certifying your dogs, link to their databases on the site. I hate having to go through them on my own. In breeding pairs I like to see a scanned copy online and clickable to a .jpg so that I can see clearances directly. AKC registration and pedigreee, Hips/Elbows, Heart and Eyes are a minimum with thyroid being nice. Simply scanning the results and putting them up would alleviate a lot of the questions you've been asked. (And you've already done that for a few things... just be consistant). Always, always always send in the registrations for eyes. This will not only help future owners, but it helps the entire breed.


You and I have the same idea- at the moment I'm "half way through" editing the site, making it a little more navigable. It sometimes takes me weeks to finish what I start to edit on the site, and have been particularly busy lately. I'm already on the CERF submission ;] I'll be able to link all the clearances right into each page as soon as they're up!




Braccarius said:


> - I like knowing as much about the history of a kennel including championships and accolades as I can. The more accolades the closer I assume a breeder adhere's to CKC or AKC. I really don't care if both parents have a title, honestly thats the least of my concerns because there is a lot of politics in showing (at least around here). But, if you have a breeding program, you have to show to build up your bragging rights especially if you claim your dogs to be show quality. Karagold has over 50 champions listed on their site and they STILL show. If you have show quality (and I'm sure you guys do) put them out there and get titles on them.
> 
> - List the number of dogs you have on site and total number of animals. If you have 5 dogs, 3 chickens 6 horses 2 cats and 1 gecko I want to know. Another thing I like to see is an "about us" where the staff are introduced and a blurb about how they got into breeding. You told a very nice story about how you were raised with the dogs on here.... I didn't read it on your site... put it there!


That is a great idea! The page would be up for editing constantly, seeing as how we are eating chickens, selling puppies, and sometimes collecting new animals.



Braccarius said:


> - If there's older dogs available, I want to know why. A prime example is the schipperkee I babysit. His canter / walk is ridiculously bad... he would never have finished a championship even if the judges were paid. As such, he was sold as a pet to my friend at 2 1/2 because he couldn't make a championship. But, this was clearly posted on the website he purchased him from and he was neutered prior to arrival. If you're selling a retired female, spay her before she goes out, there are people out there who would buy an unspayed female of european descent to get pups from them. A retired bitch with 5 more litters left in her can make some unethical people a lot of money....especially if they are gorgeous and have certifications. There are "doodle" breeders who would crank out litters til the female died and sell the pups at 1200 a piece. No worries about AKC papers on a mix dog either.
> 
> - Pictures pictures pictures and more pictures. Take out your testimonials and put up pictures of happy owners with their happy dogs along with full stories. I believe what I see... and I want to see owners with their dogs at the beach when the dogs 14 years old.
> 
> - I always read websites and when they are "all flowers" I always find myself skeptical. I once found a story on a breeders website, once upon a time, about a female who died shortly after giving birth. Trust me when I say this, the posting of that story and reading the obvious heartache made me a believer. Even the best have lowlights.... just google Birnam Wood's "Zoom", or Faera's Starlight "Star" and you'll see that very quickly.


Most of our older dogs we have for sale are typically because they are the _best_ of the litter, not the worst. Like I said, we keep our best stuff, and narrow it down as they grow. The two spayed girls up on the site are there now because of just that- they are spayed. lol
As far as selling intact females- we prefer spaying our retired girls just for that reason- greedy people out there will breed a female with no regard as to how old she is.
I have short testimonials from some people (with pictures :] ) on the "what owners have to say page". I suppose I can ask for long testimonials and post those up as well!
I posted a few stories here on the forum, but for the future I could attempt a "true stories" page on the site. Is that what you would suggest as far as the title?
Thank you for your detailed, well thought out, and helpful tips. You've given me some good new ideas!


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## Cynazar Goldens

Pointgold said:


> Had the questions been answered right away, and they were asked politely, albeit straight forward, then perhaps no one here would have begun to "push" for answers. They complained right away about even having been asked. _That, _imo, suggests a problem.
> ....QUOTE]
> 
> Did I complain about being asked a question? People are curious, and if they don't ask, how will they ever know the answer? However, I believe questions should always be asked politely, no matter how long it takes for them to be answered.
> I'm sure nobody has this forum updating directly onto their Blackberry.


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## Cynazar Goldens

Jo Ellen said:


> Actually, I believe the Cynazar group has a social group on Facebook. It wouldn't surprise me at all that Cynazar puppy owners would come here on their own and want to respond to some of what has been posted here. We have a Cynazar puppy owner member here from before this thread developed and she wanted to respond, as well. I'm glad she did.
> 
> I don't think it is fair, or maybe not even plausible given the Facebook group, to suggest that any of the testimonials have been solicited. Sure it happens, we've seen it before ... but there are other equally likely explanations for our new Cynazar members.


Hi Jo Ellen,
Some of the new members are here because I brought this thread to everyones attention on our Facebook group. I asked them all equally to put in their honest opinion about our dogs. Some chose to come and post, but I have no control over who comes, and no control over what they have to say. That's the way I wanted it! :]


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## Cynazar Goldens

Jo Ellen said:


> I personally would like to hear from Jenne again. If we close the thread, we may never. QUOTE]
> 
> Jo Ellen,
> After this thread was closed, I made a page on my website - www.CynazarGoldens.com - for questions from everyone here. Luckily, the thread was reopened so I can just continue answering everything here. Nobody seemed to post questions for me anyway.. I guess you all rather post here!
> If you ever have any questions for me you can find me at [email protected]. That, I do have forwarded to my Blackberry ;P


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## Cynazar Goldens

nixietink said:


> How many males do you have?


Four studs, and two goofball adolescents listed on the website for sale, one out of both OFA Excellent parents, the other who is even more beautiful out of an OFA Good x OFA Excellent.


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## GoldensGirl

I am glad to see this thread reopened and the questions being answered by Jenne of Cynazar Goldens in a careful way. It appears that GRF member criticisms and suggestions are being taken to heart, resulting in changes to the Cynazar web site and certifications being added to databases. 

Selfishly, I hope this dialogue can go forward in a way that is constructive. I learn a lot from the questions and responses.

Thanks, Jenne.

Lucy


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## Jo Ellen

GoldensGirl said:


> Selfishly, I hope this dialogue can go forward in a way that is constructive. I learn a lot from the questions and responses.


Me too, sincerely.

Thank you, Jenne, for taking the time to answer my question about fencing!

And thank you to the Mods for reopening this thread and giving Jenne an opportunity to respond.


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## Jo Ellen

Still crushing over Ollie!! :heartbeat


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## Ljilly28

> At the moment we have seven puppies ages three months and four months old. They are all listed on the website.
> We have twelve girls (that number is including all of our girls that are still too young to breed), and selectively choose who we will breed during which year. We like to keep our boys together for the most part, except when breeding to one of our girls (we have this nice little prefert fencing kennel area on our back porch where we pair them).


You have 12 female dogs plus 4 males , plus these pups/older dogs for sale? Do you think it is possible to socialize and train this many youngsters responsibly? 

Harvey 2,100 $
Pogo 2,600 $
Snowhite ( age 5) 700$
Priscilla (age 6) 900$
Gorgeous 1000$
SnowAngel 750$
Two Priscilla puppies born last August 2,000$
Princess 2,000 $
Diamond Puppies from July 1,500$ not sure how many
2 Cynda puppies 1,600$ each
Another Cynda litter upcoming 1,800 each


Maybe I read incorrectly, but it seems like you have in the ballpark of 20 to 25 dogs, all without titles/formal accomplishments of any kind. When your litter is born, how many dogs total will you have?


----------



## HiTideGoldens

I just looked at the revised website. I still think you are being very misleading by posting the following:



[*]Cynazar Kennels has been in love with goldens since 1990. The same passion that went into producing CH. Cynazar's L.A. Woman (Number 2 female 1993) goes into breeding high quality golden retrievers.
An average person reading that sentence will assume that you are showing your goldens and that L.A. Woman was a golden retriever. I'm really surprised you haven't changed that to be more clear - especially given that it was pointed out by PointGold several times. And why aren't you showing your dogs in any competitive venue?? 

And I'm also confused about the number of dogs you have...so you have 12 bitches, 6 dogs and 7 puppies for sale for a total of at least 25 dogs right now with a litter on the way? So you may have upwards of 35 dogs on your property once this litter is born? - maybe more since your website is very confusing????? *I think you need to clarify this.
*


----------



## Jo Ellen

> Buy with confidence from an experienced breeder. Cynthia Black has been involved with dogs and animals since she was born. *She is a professional groomer and breeder and can boast about breeding the Number 2 female Chinese Shar-Pei in the USA in 1993* - this took only 5 years of careful breeding, much to the dismay of other breeders who had been involved for 20+ years. She finished 6 Shar-Pei Champions herself.
> 
> Cynazar Kennels has been in love with goldens since 1990. The same passion that went into producing CH. Cynazar's L.A. Woman (Number 2 female 1993) goes into breeding high quality golden retrievers.



I read this and didn't think LA Woman was a golden, I had read the first bullet point first. Cynthia Black has the same passion for breeding high-quality golden retrievers as she did producing LA Woman, a Shar-Pei.

If you zero in on only the second bullet point, I can see how one could think LA Woman is a golden, but only if you don't read the first part. 

I consider myself to be an average reader, I was not confused about LA Woman being a Shar-Pei.


----------



## eeneymeanymineymo

Jo Ellen said:


> I read this and didn't think LA Woman was a golden, I had read the first bullet point first. Cynthia Black has the same passion for breeding high-quality golden retrievers as she did producing LA Woman, a Shar-Pei.
> 
> If you zero in on only the second bullet point, I can see how one could think LA Woman is a golden, but only if you don't read the first part.
> 
> I consider myself to be an average reader, I was not confused about LA Woman being a Shar-Pei.


It is VERY misleading. I read the first part and no mention was made of the NAME of the "Number 2 female Chinese Shar-Pei in the USA in 1993". Why not? It is mentioned below when discussing the golden retriever. It should be mentioned in the FIRST bullet point. This way no confusion. And the "Number 2 female Chinese Shar-Pei in the USA in 1993" has absolutely nothing to do with breeding golden retrievers. 

The boasting & raving really turns me off when I look at this website. It draws attention away from the real reason someone would want to purchase a GOLDEN retriever. Too much tying to 'sell' everyone on how great their dogs are and they as well. *KISS* - keep it simple sweetie (and I do not mean sweetie as an insult to you.) Less is more and the facts (clearances) are what you should be promoting. 

I find the home page misleading when the very first sentence is " Quality New Jersey Golden Retriever Puppies" and then in the bottom right you mention "we are located in Starrucca, PA 18462". To me, when I see other websites claiming 'we make deliveries to NJ & PA or we will be in NJ & PA on such a date' tells me that they don't want you visiting their home and sell their puppies on the road. Big turn off. 

"Stunning Whites"??? Sorry, the GOLDEN retriever is not white. And the whole shading system you use when rating your puppies - another gimmick. I really dislike marketing ploys. WHITE plays off those looking for the rare white golden. When I googled your kennel name, I found this website: www.whitegoldens.com
Although the website looks outdated, to me the word 'white' was used in your heading "Cynazar's English Goldens - White Golden Retrievers". 

Your claim 'Guaranteed to pass all clearances under full registration' is something NO breeder can claim. Just because the parents have clearances does not mean the offspring will pass. The term 'right to breed and show' is also misleading. Why would you not sell these 'show potential and possible cleared' puppies on limited registration until the puppy obtains their clearances by two years of age? I am certain the market you are attracting are people who want to breed - not show as you don't show your own dogs. I would think a breeder who has worked very hard on their breeding program would be very careful about placing a puppy in a home with someone they might never see again and the puppy is on full registration. Guess what, they can breed that dog without clearances and you will never know. 

Club affiliations? I did not see a link for this on your website but perhaps I overlooked it. I want to see that you are a member of the GRCA, local kennel clubs and yes, it would be nice if you were showing your goldens in the conformation ring since you claim you are breeding for conformation if I was to buy a puppy from you and that your dogs have the 'right to breed and show'. How can you be a mentor to these people who purchase puppies from you if you are not actively showing your own goldens?

I look forward to seeing your dogs eye reports in the OFA & CERF database.


----------



## GoldensGirl

Ljilly28 said:


> You have 12 female dogs plus 4 males , plus these pups/older dogs for sale? Do you think it is possible to socialize and train this many youngsters responsibly?... Maybe I read incorrectly, but it seems like you have in the ballpark of 20 to 25 dogs, all without titles/formal accomplishments of any kind. When your litter is born, how many dogs total will you have?


I understand this concern. Isn't the number of people who are there to work with the dogs also relevant? A home with several adults and teenagers might be able to handle 20-25 dogs, but one woman and a teenage daughter might have difficulty, at least judging by the demands/commands of our three Goldens.

Another post pointed out that the value of competition lies in providing an objective assessment of quality. Are there other forms of assessment or validation that are acceptable? 

Obviously I am not a breeder and have no plans to become one. I also don't show my dogs, who are part of my family. Why should it matter to me whether a breeder has champions in the lineage? I ask because I think it is relevant to this discussion of issues. In fact, our latest pup does have those champions in her ancestry, and I think it shows in her intelligence and personality. However, I have experience with other Goldens who are/were absolutely wonderful pets and family members despite the lack of champion bloodlines.

Thanks for helping to educate me.
Lucy


----------



## Jo Ellen

To each their own, everyone is different. I didn't find the website offensive at all. There's room for individual differences, you're never going to please everyone. 

I read #2 female 1993 in the first bullet point, and again in the 2nd bullet point and knew they were the same. And I also read that Cynthia's passion for producing LA Woman is the same passion that drives her breeding program with golden retrievers. I don't think those two have to be unrelated at all. All I'm saying is that I didn't feel misled. 

And I think Jenne explained very well what she means with the guaranteed clearances under full registration. Eeney, I think you've misunderstood this, or maybe you didn't read her explanation?


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## Florabora22

I always thought it was relatively normal for a breeder to have many dogs. Flora's breeder had upwards of 20 dogs on site, plus... I believe 2.5 litters (half of one litter was already home). Her breeder claimed to pay much attention to all the dogs, and they all seemed pretty happy animals. I don't believe having a large number of dogs on-site necessarily means it's a bad thing.


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## eeneymeanymineymo

I read her response to 'guaranteed clearances under full registration' Jo Ellen and , if you are a breeder or have ever bred a litter of puppies, you would understand that there are never any guarantees to the health or clearances on a dog and no way can you make a claim that they dog is 'guaranteed' to pass. If this were true, then every dog used in one's breeding program would *magically* be perfect conformationally, *magically* get their clearances and *magically* produce the next BIS puppy from every single litter! Let me blow the dust off my crystal ball...

My interpretation is my own of her website & breeding practices. This is my last comment on this thread.


----------



## Megora

You know... reading through this thread, I kinda feel better about my Jacksipants' breeders, who definitely were all "family business" about their breeding operation.  

They were an older couple and did not have the time away from the business and the dogs to compete in shows. That's no excuse where it comes to conformation, as a lot of the time people in the same situation just send their dogs out with a handler who does all the work for a price. But who knows what their reasons were and are. Maybe they just were not interested in conformation. There are plenty of legit breeders in Michigan who are the same way, as they are more interested in hunt, agility, and obedience. This does not mean they are breeding and producing dogs who do not adhere to the golden standard. 

One important thing though is they did train all of their dogs. And I'm pretty sure they kept fewer than 12 females. A lot fewer. When I visited their place, all of their dogs were well-behaved and responsive to the owners. In this case, if the owners ever got it into their heads to start showing their dogs in obedience, I have no doubt that they would excel. 

And the important thing is that these people were able to tell me which litter to look at for an obedience dog, this because they worked with and trained their dogs, and knew which female was especially responsive to training. 

That training thing might not be a big deal if you are just shopping around for a golden puppy who will just be a normal family pet, but as for our guy - they did a wonderful job socializing and training those puppies, because our guy was perfect when he came home. And we've told the breeders again and again that he was the easiest puppy we've ever had. 

Compare that to the small hobby breeder who was so busy showing her goldens to give particular attention to obedience training or household obedience. All of her dogs were wild. They all barked like idiots. And this translated to the types of puppies she produced. We loved our golden out of this breeder and he was our angel boy. He never growled in his entire life. But he was a little more difficult to housetrain and train. The barking was pretty bad. 

I'm not posting this comment to start up any fights and I hope this isn't perceived to be an attack on the breeder here. I have no opinion here and leave that to the others. But I was just trying to point out a reason why it is so important to people that the breeders interact with each dog and do basic household obedience training with those dogs. 

For those goldens being bred... it does help a lot when you rehome them. Please don't take this the wrong way, but maybe if the 5 year old golden were well-trained and socialized with other people, she might not have taken off running and gotten killed. 

I've never had a fence around my home and probably will never have one, but I've never had an adult dog take off*. You can see in my signature that our dogs don't even have collars on when they are outside. Our collie was adopted when he was two. But because my sister is committed to training and so were his former owners, he has always been completely trustworthy when out in the yard off leash.

*For the sake of total honestly, that previous golden I mentioned above who was more difficult to train was never let outside offleash until after he was about 6 years old. That was because, despite major elbow dysplasia and shyness, he did want to run. It took more time and training before he got to the point where he could be offleash in the yard and absolutely trustworthy.


----------



## mybuddy

Holy Cow...you are only 18??? I must say, you are VERY mature, polite and well mannered.

I do believe it is a testament as to how you were raised. Your Mom sounds like a great lady.

I think I read somewhere back that you like to trick your babies into eating vegies. I got a bit of a giggle from that, thinking about my Buddy. Heck, he steals them off the counter. There is nothing that boy wont eat. Cute yes, but yikes...not so cute when licking gum off the road!

I am so glad you are here. Hugs to you, your Mom and your beautiful pups.

Buddy sends his extra special pic just for you!


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## Selli-Belle

GoldensGirl said:


> Another post pointed out that the value of competition lies in providing an objective assessment of quality. Are there other forms of assessment or validation that are acceptable?
> 
> Lucy


For meeting the breed standard, the GRCA has the wonderful CCA program which is non-competitive and so so informative for the owners. In terms of obedience there is the CGC, but I don't think it is too much to ask for someone sells puppies to get out to go to a few obedience trials and get a CD. If you have Goldens who are of breeding quality, they should be able to do this easily.


----------



## tippykayak

Selli-Belle said:


> For meeting the breed standard, the GRCA has the wonderful CCA program which is non-competitive and so so informative for the owners. In terms of obedience there is the CGC, but I don't think it is too much to ask for someone sells puppies to get out to go to a few obedience trials and get a CD. If you have Goldens who are of breeding quality, they should be able to do this easily.


CGCs and CCAs would are a nice token demonstration that the dogs conform to breed standard physically and have at least acceptable temperament. I like to see a CCA on a dog who's titled in sport (i.e., MH, CDX) and a CGC on a dog who has a CH.

The structure, look, and ability are all important parts of the breed, so I like to see that a breeder hasn't lost sight of the big picture even as he or she focuses on one kind of competition.

So for a breeder like Cynazar, I would encourage attempts to get CCAs and CGCs as a starting point. I don't agree that it's OK to breed Goldens solely as pets and just to match up nice looking, sweet dogs, because it's too easy to lose sight of the important elements, like structure, temperament, and ability.


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## Pointgold

I have little confidence when questions are asked, and answers are not given until much later, and then reflect what others state _should _be done by reputable breeders.

And nothing that is being stated as being done is any more than what is minimally done by good, responsible, reputable breeders, and far less is being done insofar as proving these dogs in any particular venue. 
Overpriced pets.


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## tippykayak

Pointgold said:


> I have little confidence when questions are asked, and answers are not given until much later, and then reflect what others state _should _be done by reputable breeders.


To be fair, it was right before Thanksgiving when most of the big questions were asked, and then the thread was closed for over a week. The second it reopened, Jenne answered pretty much all the questions that were hanging.


----------



## Pointgold

To be fair, this thread has been open, and the same concerns expressed, since July of 2009.


----------



## Jo Ellen

To be fair, Jenne wasn't even a member here in 2009. Since she joined our forum only recently, she has been answering everyone's questions. And if I'm not mistaken, she asked the mods to reopen this thread so she could continue to answer questions. She's shown extraordinary grace and courtesy to everyone here.


----------



## Ljilly28

I guess this comes down to the eye of the beholder, and what things we personally believes separates a responsible breeder from a puppy mill/high volume breeder. What is mass producing puppies for profit and what is breeding a precious puppy out of love & respect for the breed itself? Obviously, there is much gray area when we consider all the various viewpoints represented here. 

Can we agree on a minimum standard for breeders who want the endorsement and support of GRF's longtime members? Maybe we cannot? 

In other threads, some people feel that keeping dogs in kennels rather than in the house is wrong; other people feel that many wonderful breeders keep kennel dogs, but few enough so that all receive some personal attention and training, measured objectively by concrete achievements. 

On this particular thread, some people are feeling that having 25 dogs who are not measured in an objective way is okay in this case. 

The ethics of breeding goldens is something much on my mind, so these threads are very helpful. I have never bred a puppy, and the responsibility for each and every life is all too real to me. I ask myself: is this breeding program a role model one? Ending up with more than 20 untitled goldens is something that worries me more than inspires me. 

I have already had someone ask if they could breed to Copley, and it was easy to say NO for twofold reasons: 1) this forum has taught me about the gravity of breeding even one litter and 2) Copley comes from a breeder who raises each litter in the house where all her dogs live and are loved. She specified in a contract I respect that he must pass all his final clearances and attain at least an Am Ch to be bred after age two. 

Even if all that happened, I would/will not breed Copley if he does not have working titles in obedience or if Whyatt/ Harley also complete their championships and are conformationally stronger/better dogs. 

This is just about one dog- 30 dogs? 

Breeding puppies should be about upholding and bettering the breed standard, not about making money. A breeder I respect who owns one of the most titled goldens of his generation will not allow any pups to be sold for more than 1,500 dollars because she wants to safeguard the process from people with a profit motive. Selling a dog for 2,600 who does not meet the AKC's minimum standard for a golden isn't something I could do with a clear conscience. 

For me, 20-30 untitled kennel dogs producing and producing more and more puppies? Buyer beware; shame on the breeder.

It is a serious matter to produce even one litter with a breeder's undivided attention to the socialization of each puppy. To produce 50-100 puppies a year in a kennel situation and have pups unsold at age 6, 10 months? Not for me. 

To me, the bare minimum separating a puppy mill from a serious breeder is that the dogs prove themselves excellent representations of the golden retriever standard. Otherwise, over time, type is lost and the essence of a breed is lost. Breeding white or black dogs and calling them "golden retrievers" anyway, claiming the dogs answer someone's eye for perfection but never testing them in the company of their peers, charging 1000$ more per puppy than the number 1 golden in America's puppies? Not for me. Keeping 25-35 dogs in kennels, placing the older girls when they are done reproducing, and having myriad dogs under one years old for sale . . . That is not going to be for me. 

Others feel differently, and I wish the best to any puppy born on this earth.

I am trying to imagine adding 25 more dogs to Copley, Tally,and Finn, including many under one years old. I am trying to imagine housebreaking each one, teaching them their manners, introducing them to 100 people, 12 walking surfaces, teaching them sit, stay, heel, leave it, touch- all the fun, magical puppy things that ideally happen in a critical window of time.


----------



## AmbikaGR

tippykayak said:


> To be fair, it was right before Thanksgiving when most of the big questions were asked, and then the thread was closed for over a week. The second it reopened, Jenne answered pretty much all the questions that were hanging.





Jo Ellen said:


> To be fair, Jenne wasn't even a member here in 2009. Since she joined our forum only recently, she has been answering everyone's questions. And if I'm not mistaken, she asked the mods to reopen this thread so she could continue to answer questions. She's shown extraordinary grace and courtesy to everyone here.



To be fair Cynazar Goldens has been a member of the GRF since October. 
To be fair most of these questions were posed at that time and before.
To be fair they chose not to answer the questions directly at that time.
To be fair not all the questions have been answered still to this date or have been answered with incomplete answers.
But to be fair Cynazar did request this thread be opened. Only they know the reason for that. 
Could the fact that they brought this thread to the attention of their puppy families and only a handful came forward here have something to do with it. Maybe not. 
Have they realized that when they "google" their kennel this thread is listed in the results very close to the top and they are afraid of the damage it might cause them. Maybe not.


----------



## Pointgold

Ljilly28 said:


> I guess this comes down to the eye of the beholder, and what things we personally believes separates a responsible breeder from a puppy mill/high volume breeder. What is mass producing puppies for profit and what is breeding a precious puppy out of love & respect for the breed itself? Obviously, there is much gray area when we consider all the various viewpoints represented here.
> 
> Can we agree on a minimum standard for breeders who want the endorsement and support of GRF's longtime members? Maybe we cannot?
> 
> In other threads, some people feel that keeping dogs in kennels rather than in the house is wrong; other people feel that many wonderful breeders keep kennel dogs, but few enough so that all receive some personal attention and training, measured objectively by concrete achievements.
> 
> On this particular thread, some people are feeling that having 25 dogs who are not measured in an objective way is okay in this care.
> 
> The ethics of breeding goldens is something much on my mind, so these threads are very helpful. I have never bred a puppy, and the responsibility for each and every life is all too real to me. I have already had someone ask if they could breed to Copley, and it was easy to say NO for twofold reasons: 1) this forum has taught me about the gravity of breeding even one litter and 2) Copley comes from a breeder who raises each litter in the house where all her dogs live and are loved. She specified in a contract I respect that he must pass all his final clearances and attain at least an Am Ch to be bred after age two. Even if all that happened, I would/will not breed Copley if he does not have working titles in obedience or if Whyatt/ Harley also complete their championships and are conformationally stronger/better dogs.
> 
> Breeding puppies should be about upholding and bettering the breed standard, not about making money. A breeder I respect who owns one of the most titled goldens of his generation will not allow any pups to be sold for more than 1,500 dollars because she wants to safeguard the process from people with a profit motive. Selling a dog for 2,600 who does not meet the AKC's minimum standard for a golden isn't something I could do with a clear conscience.
> 
> For me, 20-30 untitled kennel dogs producing and producing more and more puppies sold for more than the top performance/show goldens? Buyer beware; shame on the breeder.
> 
> It is a serious matter to produce even one litter with a breeder's undivided attention to the socialization of each puppy. To produce 50-100 puppies a year in a kennel situation and have pups unsold at age 6, 10 months? Not for me.
> 
> To me, the bare minimum separating a puppy mill from a serious breeder is that the dogs prove themselves excellent representations of the golden retriever standard. Otherwise, over time, type is lost and the essence of a breed is lost. Breeding white or black dogs and calling them "golden retrievers" anyway, claiming the dogs answer someone's eye for perfection but never testing them in the company of their peers, charging 1000$ more per puppy than the number 1 golden in America's puppies? Not for me. Keeping 25-35 dogs in kennels, placing the older girls when they are done reproducing, and having myriad dogs under one years old for sale . . . That is not going to be for me.
> 
> Others feel differently, and I wish the best to any puppy born on this earth.
> 
> I am trying to imagine adding 25 more dogs to Copley, Tally,and Finn, including many under one years old. I am trying to imagine housebreaking each one, teaching them their manners, introducing them to 100 people, 12 walking surfaces, teaching them sit, stay, heel, leave it, touch- all the fun, magical puppy things that ideally happen in a critical window of time.


:appl:to everything that Jill has said, and particularly this:
"For me, 20-30 untitled kennel dogs producing and producing more and more puppies sold for more than the top performance/show goldens? Buyer beware; shame on the breeder."

Extraordinary grace is nice, but there is _far_ more to being a truly responsible breeder.


----------



## GoldensGirl

Ljilly28 said:


> I guess this comes down to the eye of the beholder, and what things we personally believes separates a responsible breeder from a puppy mill/high volume breeder. What is mass producing puppies for profit and what is breeding a precious puppy out of love & respect for the breed itself? Obviously, there is much gray area when we consider all the various viewpoints represented here.
> 
> Can we agree on a minimum standard for breeders who want the endorsement and support of GRF's longtime members? Maybe we cannot?
> 
> In other threads, some people feel that keeping dogs in kennels rather than in the house is wrong; other people feel that many wonderful breeders keep kennel dogs, but few enough so that all receive some personal attention and training, measured objectively by concrete achievements.
> 
> On this particular thread, some people are feeling that having 25 dogs who are not measured in an objective way is okay in this case. I don't get it?
> 
> The ethics of breeding goldens is something much on my mind, so these threads are very helpful. I have never bred a puppy, and the responsibility for each and every life is all too real to me.
> 
> I have already had someone ask if they could breed to Copley, and it was easy to say NO for twofold reasons: 1) this forum has taught me about the gravity of breeding even one litter and 2) Copley comes from a breeder who raises each litter in the house where all her dogs live and are loved. She specified in a contract I respect that he must pass all his final clearances and attain at least an Am Ch to be bred after age two.
> 
> Even if all that happened, I would/will not breed Copley if he does not have working titles in obedience or if Whyatt/ Harley also complete their championships and are conformationally stronger/better dogs.
> 
> This is just about one dog- 30 dogs?
> 
> Breeding puppies should be about upholding and bettering the breed standard, not about making money. A breeder I respect who owns one of the most titled goldens of his generation will not allow any pups to be sold for more than 1,500 dollars because she wants to safeguard the process from people with a profit motive. Selling a dog for 2,600 who does not meet the AKC's minimum standard for a golden isn't something I could do with a clear conscience.
> 
> For me, 20-30 untitled kennel dogs producing and producing more and more puppies? Buyer beware; shame on the breeder.
> 
> It is a serious matter to produce even one litter with a breeder's undivided attention to the socialization of each puppy. To produce 50-100 puppies a year in a kennel situation and have pups unsold at age 6, 10 months? Not for me.
> 
> To me, the bare minimum separating a puppy mill from a serious breeder is that the dogs prove themselves excellent representations of the golden retriever standard. Otherwise, over time, type is lost and the essence of a breed is lost. Breeding white or black dogs and calling them "golden retrievers" anyway, claiming the dogs answer someone's eye for perfection but never testing them in the company of their peers, charging 1000$ more per puppy than the number 1 golden in America's puppies? Not for me. Keeping 25-35 dogs in kennels, placing the older girls when they are done reproducing, and having myriad dogs under one years old for sale . . . That is not going to be for me.
> 
> Others feel differently, and I wish the best to any puppy born on this earth.
> 
> I am trying to imagine adding 25 more dogs to Copley, Tally,and Finn, including many under one years old. I am trying to imagine housebreaking each one, teaching them their manners, introducing them to 100 people, 12 walking surfaces, teaching them sit, stay, heel, leave it, touch- all the fun, magical puppy things that ideally happen in a critical window of time.


Thank you for a very helpful post! I have learned a lot from what you have shared.

The issue of how puppies are priced is puzzling to me. Doesn't/shouldn't location have something to do with it? I live between Washington, D.C. and Baltimore, MD, and this is a very expensive region, especially compared to a rural setting. The very reputable breeder from whom we got our Sunny last August charges around $2,000 for a puppy - well over the $1,500 you mentioned. She certainly is not running a puppy mill. She does have some older pups and young dogs for sale - dogs she kept to assess for breeding and then decided they didn't make the grade, so has trained (some have titles) and neutered them and wants to place them in good homes.

How should price be determined? From what I have read on the GRF and other sites, $1,500 per puppy doesn't come close to covering the cost of having a healthy litter from championship parents. That cost includes the parents' clearances and regular re-examinations, training and showing to maintain the standards and validate the breeding program, vet care for the parents and all the puppies, etc. I don't want to support a puppy mill of any kind, but I also don't think the breeder should have to subsidize every puppy sold. If every puppy represents a significant financial loss to a responsible breeder, only the irresponsible ones will survive!

The health problems of Goldens are a particular concern to me. The databases don't seem to reflect problems that many of us agonize over - cancer, for example, which plagues the breed. And seizures, which apparently afflict 20-25% of Goldens, according to a GRF survey. These problems typically develop after a dog might be bred by a responsible breeder, but can't something be done to track these problems in a line? How can those of us who are not breeders but do care about the breed help? What is our responsibility to the community of Goldens and those who love them?

I am mindful that the person responding to our questions about Cynazar is 18 years old. I think she has handled the questions with courtesy, though I realize that the answers may not be everything some GRF members want to see. Perhaps I am naive, but I sense that she is learning from this process and I hope she will stay here and learn to be the kind of breeder whose dogs enhance the Golden Retriever breed, if that is not already the case.

Thanks again for helping me learn about these issues and grow as a Golden lover.

Lucy


----------



## Meggie'sMom

Jill, I wish everyone had your ethics and your heart for this breed (and all others). Well said.


----------



## HiTideGoldens

I wholly agree with Jill. Great post.


----------



## Jackson'sMom

Ljilly28 said:


> I guess this comes down to the eye of the beholder, and what things we personally believes separates a responsible breeder from a puppy mill/high volume breeder. What is mass producing puppies for profit and what is breeding a precious puppy out of love & respect for the breed itself? Obviously, there is much gray area when we consider all the various viewpoints represented here.
> 
> Can we agree on a minimum standard for breeders who want the endorsement and support of GRF's longtime members? Maybe we cannot?
> 
> In other threads, some people feel that keeping dogs in kennels rather than in the house is wrong; other people feel that many wonderful breeders keep kennel dogs, but few enough so that all receive some personal attention and training, measured objectively by concrete achievements.
> 
> On this particular thread, some people are feeling that having 25 dogs who are not measured in an objective way is okay in this case.
> 
> The ethics of breeding goldens is something much on my mind, so these threads are very helpful. I have never bred a puppy, and the responsibility for each and every life is all too real to me. I ask myself: is this breeding program a role model one? Ending up with more than 20 untitled goldens is something that worries me more than inspires me.
> 
> I have already had someone ask if they could breed to Copley, and it was easy to say NO for twofold reasons: 1) this forum has taught me about the gravity of breeding even one litter and 2) Copley comes from a breeder who raises each litter in the house where all her dogs live and are loved. She specified in a contract I respect that he must pass all his final clearances and attain at least an Am Ch to be bred after age two.
> 
> Even if all that happened, I would/will not breed Copley if he does not have working titles in obedience or if Whyatt/ Harley also complete their championships and are conformationally stronger/better dogs.
> 
> This is just about one dog- 30 dogs?
> 
> Breeding puppies should be about upholding and bettering the breed standard, not about making money. A breeder I respect who owns one of the most titled goldens of his generation will not allow any pups to be sold for more than 1,500 dollars because she wants to safeguard the process from people with a profit motive. Selling a dog for 2,600 who does not meet the AKC's minimum standard for a golden isn't something I could do with a clear conscience.
> 
> For me, 20-30 untitled kennel dogs producing and producing more and more puppies? Buyer beware; shame on the breeder.
> 
> It is a serious matter to produce even one litter with a breeder's undivided attention to the socialization of each puppy. To produce 50-100 puppies a year in a kennel situation and have pups unsold at age 6, 10 months? Not for me.
> 
> To me, the bare minimum separating a puppy mill from a serious breeder is that the dogs prove themselves excellent representations of the golden retriever standard. Otherwise, over time, type is lost and the essence of a breed is lost. Breeding white or black dogs and calling them "golden retrievers" anyway, claiming the dogs answer someone's eye for perfection but never testing them in the company of their peers, charging 1000$ more per puppy than the number 1 golden in America's puppies? Not for me. Keeping 25-35 dogs in kennels, placing the older girls when they are done reproducing, and having myriad dogs under one years old for sale . . . That is not going to be for me.
> 
> Others feel differently, and I wish the best to any puppy born on this earth.
> 
> I am trying to imagine adding 25 more dogs to Copley, Tally,and Finn, including many under one years old. I am trying to imagine housebreaking each one, teaching them their manners, introducing them to 100 people, 12 walking surfaces, teaching them sit, stay, heel, leave it, touch- all the fun, magical puppy things that ideally happen in a critical window of time.


I generally don't get involved in the puppy breeding threads, but Jill's response is spot-on. Well said. And for those who don't know me, I get all my dogs from rescues, and only adult dogs, so I have no personal axe to grind either way with regard to this breeder. I do know that if I were to be in the market for a puppy, this is not a breeder I would consider.


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## tippykayak

I agree with the criticism that's been leveled, and I leveled some of it myself. I also agree wholeheartedly with LJilly's graceful and articulate criticism. Cynazar is not an operation I would buy from or encourage others to buy from.

However, I see a real opportunity here because the breeder seems willing to engage rather than just defend, and that attitude makes me want to educate rather than attack. Except for the volume, they seem to be doing the bare minimum for breeding responsibly, and that says to me that they care about more than money, and if they're really doing all the clearances they say they are, at least they're not perpetuating some of the common health problems. I'm optimistic that they might even make some changes for the better based on the feedback they get.

Whether we like it or not, the popularity of the breed and the nature of our expectations of an ideal breeder have created an economic niche for breeders of expensive pet puppies. Given that great breeders are deliberately small volume, typically unadvertised, and obviously quite picky about where dogs go to, the market for "just pets" is going to be created by simple economic forces, and the prices are going to be whatever the market will bear.

To put it another way, Cynazar is able to sell something on the order of 50 dogs a year at their prices. Were there 50 spare puppies from ideal breedings in that area of NJ and PA? By the GRF definition of an ideal breeding (one where most or all are pre-reserved), no.

So when I see a breeder like this, I recognize that the pet market is going to exist, and I think, "well, that could be a whole lot worse." I think about ways I might encourage them to be better. She's already said she's going to mail in all the CERFs she has and keep them up to date from now on. That's a small step.

Next, maybe we can get them to reconsider the whole "white" Golden thing or even to get CCAs on her dogs. Maybe in the process seeing some pass and some fail, she'll really be able to improve the structure and health of her dogs. Isn't that what the program is for? Maybe she'll read this and go out and get a CGC or even a CD on a dog.

I'm saving my bile for breeders who skip clearances, who breed underage, and who neglect their dogs: those whose motive is solely profit. Here we have somebody who seems to really care about her animals and wants to do right by them.

So if the purpose of the thread is for us to express our endorsement or our chastisement, well, I can't endorse this breeder because of the high volume and the lack of competition to show the dogs' abilities and structure. If the purpose is educating, I think there's some real chance we can accomplish that here.


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## tippykayak

AmbikaGR said:


> But to be fair Cynazar did request this thread be opened. Only they know the reason for that.
> Could the fact that they brought this thread to the attention of their puppy families and only a handful came forward here have something to do with it. Maybe not.
> Have they realized that when they "google" their kennel this thread is listed in the results very close to the top and they are afraid of the damage it might cause them. Maybe not.


Given what she's written, I believe she wanted a chance to answer all the questions and represent her side of things. I respect that. Not everybody has eight hours to sit and write a dozen responses right when they might want to, but she came into a thread that was turning toxic and was very friendly in explaining herself.


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## Jo Ellen

Just a question I've been thinking about .... if only small(er) breeding programs are in place by responsible breeders, how many of us here would have our precious goldens? 

Now I realize this question raises all kinds of red flags. I don't support high-volume, irresponsible backyard breedings or puppy mills. 

But there is such a large gray area between the one end of the spectrum of responsible breeding and the other end where we find the GRM's and puppy mills of this world.

Can I venture to say that it's this gray area where most of us here on GRF have been able to discover the joys of owning our own golden retrievers?


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## Bender

I don't think saying that HVB, puppy mills and less than ethical breeding practices are 'required' to supply everyone wiht their own golden. Most of the breeders I know DON'T breed unless they have enough good homes waiting. They will skip doing a litter if they don't have the homes, and I'm sure would breed that litter if there were the good homes. Many of the applicants they get are turned away as well, because of things like 'our last golden got run over on the highway, need a smarter one this time' or the people not having the time to come meet in person without kids to chat about goldens, and so on. My guess is those people go to the 'not so good' choices to get a puppy where things won't be asked.

As to the breeder on this thread, nobody else has mentioned it, but I think it's pretty unfair to insist that a dog who doesn't pass clearances have to be returned and a replacement puppy offered. I know personally I wouldn't say a thing if my dog failed a clearance if it meant having to give the dog up - and risk another pup/dog with the same issue. To me that's very unethical as a breeder knowing it's pretty likely they won't give up their pet. Just saying...

Lana


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## Jo Ellen

Bender said:


> I don't think saying that HVB, puppy mills and less than ethical breeding practices are 'required' to supply everyone wiht their own golden.


I hope you don't think that's what I said or implied. I was talking about the thousands of responsible golden owners that are out there, including those of us who are here.

I too want to protect the breed, but sometimes from reading here, I come away thinking that golden ownership, if some breeders have their way, could become like a very exclusive or elite group.


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## Ljilly28

Edited bc too boring to myself and others,lol.


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## Jo Ellen

Ljilly28 said:


> Edited bc too boring to myself and others,lol.


Well that's hardly possible


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## Selli-Belle

Oh Ljilly post it. I find your posts interesting and informative.

I too have a problem with the need to return the dog to get the guarantee. Cynazar says that is because the people who want a full registration are only interested in breeding the dog and would need to replace the dog if it does not get all their clearances with another breeding dog. Most dog people, including breeders, form a strong bond with their dogs that is not affected by whether the dog passes its clearances. The dogs are their pets, not their business and if their dogs do not pass their clearances, the dog is altered and remain their pets. The big difference is looking at breeding as a hobby or a business!


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## Jo Ellen

I want to be more clear in what I meant in my previous post -- in case it's important to anyone 

I do not think that everyone who wants a golden retriever should have one -- that's what HVB and puppy mills cater to. We see a lot of suffering in our precious breed because of this. I don't support this at all. 

I do think that every responsible dog owner who wants a golden retriever should be able to have one. Within a broader range of responsible breeding, I believe this can happen. But I question if it can happen if the range narrows to a few in the upper eschelons. Does that make sense? That's what I mean to say


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## nixietink

Ljilly28 said:


> Edited bc too boring to myself and others,lol.


Re-post!! That was SUCH a beautiful and eloquent post.


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## ragtym

Selli-Belle said:


> Oh Ljilly post it. I find your posts interesting and informative.
> 
> I too have a problem with the need to return the dog to get the guarantee. Cynazar says that is because the people who want a full registration are only interested in breeding the dog and would need to replace the dog if it does not get all their clearances with another breeding dog. Most dog people, including breeders, form a strong bond with their dogs that is not affected by whether the dog passes its clearances. The dogs are their pets, not their business and if their dogs do not pass their clearances, the dog is altered and remain their pets. The big difference is looking at breeding as a hobby or a business!


Agreed - I have a male here that didn't pass hips, he is mildly dysplastic. His breeder never asked for his return and I wouldn't have sent him back anyway. I neutered him and she refunded the difference between the show price and the pet price on him. He's still here with me with his 13.5 year old Aunt and 15 month old niece.


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## SheetsSM

I don't get how selling a $2K puppy from unproven lines is enabling responsible golden owners to having a pup--if you're making that much money per pup surely you'd be able to invest in the pups and have them independently evaluated to back up that "eye for perfection". If you're going to do it, then do it right. I'll probably have rescues for the rest of my life, but you can believe if I were to go the puppy route, I'd be going to a reputable breeders who are proving what they claim instead of putting up a slick marketing campaign/website. I do hope this an opportunity to educate the breeder and that she makes the time to learn about the breed and comprehend the claims being made by her family's business.


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## Bender

Jo Ellen said:


> I want to be more clear in what I meant in my previous post -- in case it's important to anyone
> 
> I do not think that everyone who wants a golden retriever should have one -- that's what HVB and puppy mills cater to. We see a lot of suffering in our precious breed because of this. I don't support this at all.
> 
> I do think that every responsible dog owner who wants a golden retriever should be able to have one. Within a broader range of responsible breeding, I believe this can happen. But I question if it can happen if the range narrows to a few in the upper eschelons. Does that make sense? That's what I mean to say


Totally agree and understand. It did sound a bit like you were suggesting there weren't enough good breeders out there, which I think is a bit true - hard to compete with some of the less than great breeders out there (when you have people who want a puppy NOW or think they're saving money going a few hundred cheaper on the price of a dog with no clearances or titles on the parents...).

I know a lot of breeders have that issue, people think 'I want a puppy today' and aren't interested in much else.

Lana


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## Jo Ellen

SheetsSM said:


> I don't get how selling a $2K puppy from unproven lines is enabling responsible golden owners to having a pup--


I'm not wealthy, I'm single, I make $50K/year. Is that TMI?  But if I saved my money and it was important to me to find a responsible golden retriever breeder near me that would sell me a puppy, I could come up with that much money if I wanted to. Not saying healthy golden retrievers should cost that much, just saying I could afford it with a bit of saving. Definitely wouldn't be _I want a puppy today_ kind of situation -- which maybe isn't altogether a bad thing.

Bender, thank you. It was really important to me that you understand what I was trying to say


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## Jo Ellen

I just want to add this ... I'll probably get flamed but I think I have a good point and I know I'm not alone.

I like my pet golden. Some golden owners prefer to have champion lines behind their goldens. I want a healthy pet golden retriever -- it doesn't really matter to me what the championship ancestry is.

There's room for all of us in the world of golden retriever ownership. We all care about the health of the breed. When I start looking for my next golden retriever <<heavy sigh, hard to think about that>> I will be looking for a good history of clearances. The titles aren't going to be any type of determining factor for me. I just want a healthy golden retriever to have fun with. 

What is wrong with this way of thinking?


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## nixietink

Jo Ellen said:


> I just want to add this ... I'll probably get flamed but I think I have a good point and I know I'm not alone.
> 
> I like my pet golden. Some golden owners prefer to have champion lines behind their goldens. I want a healthy pet golden retriever -- it doesn't really matter to me what the championship ancestry is.
> 
> There's room for all of us in the world of golden retriever ownership. We all care about the health of the breed. When I start looking for my next golden retriever <<heavy sigh, hard to think about that>> I will be looking for a good history of clearances. The titles aren't going to be any type of determining factor for me. I just want a healthy golden retriever to have fun with.
> 
> What is wrong with this way of thinking?


Well, IMO, the titles are there for a reason. They are there to show that the dog exemplifies the golden retriever standard in morphology and behavior. The dog is a betterment to the breed. Continually breeding dogs without any formal evaluation is where the wonderful breed begins to get lost...


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## Megora

Jo Ellen said:


> I just want to add this ... I'll probably get flamed but I think I have a good point and I know I'm not alone.
> 
> I like my pet golden. Some golden owners prefer to have champion lines behind their goldens. I want a healthy pet golden retriever -- it doesn't really matter to me what the championship ancestry is.
> 
> There's room for all of us in the world of golden retriever ownership. We all care about the health of the breed. When I start looking for my next golden retriever <<heavy sigh, hard to think about that>> I will be looking for a good history of clearances. The titles aren't going to be any type of determining factor for me. I just want a healthy golden retriever to have fun with.
> 
> What is wrong with this way of thinking?


 
I don't think there is anything wrong with that kind of thinking... except a pet-bred golden should not cost the same as a golden who has a loaded pedigree. That's why people are saying that those goldens are overpriced. I would not fall in love with a breeder simply because they have beautiful dogs and are in the same state as you. 

The other thing is that there is no such thing as a guaranteed healthy golden. _Even with clearances._ That's why you want to go with a breeder who is reasonable and will work with you if something happens. Or at least support your decisions concerning the dog. <- That was a plus with my golden who had severe elbow dysplasia. We never asked for the money back, but could have since it was part of the contract. The breeder was there to help us and was knowledgable enough to help us. Either that or she was able to get us in touch with specialists who did help us.


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## CarolinaCasey

nixietink said:


> Well, IMO, the titles are there for a reason. They are there to show that the dog exemplifies the golden retriever standard in morphology and behavior. The dog is a betterment to the breed. Continually breeding dogs without any formal evaluation is where the wonderful breed begins to get lost...


I agree with you Nicole... and I can also see Jo Ellens P.O.V. 

Structure = Function, I think that is a crucial thing to remember.

If not built correctly, despite having OFA clear hips and elbows, a dog still may not lead a comfortable life because it's structure doesn't allow for it. Does that make sense? I think the CCA + clearances should be a minimum requirement for titling to ensure that the breeding dogs are structurally sound in mind/body.


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## Jo Ellen

Thank you, Megora. I know I'm pushing the envelope here.

You're right, logically they shouldn't be as expensive as champion lines. But if I had to spend say $500 more to get a healthy goden retriever in my state, as opposed to traveling out of state to save $500 ... would I really be saving money in the end? Probably not. And spending the extra now, even if it might be somewhat over the top, could save me even more in the long run. 

I would consider getting a golden retriever puppy from Cynazar. I would have to visit her first, of course, to see first hand. Unfortunately, I don't think she would sell me a puppy -- I don't have a fence :


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## Megora

> The CCA program is also on a point scale requiring the dog to score a minimum of 75 or higher out of 100 possible points, broken down into ten categories. A non-competitive CCA event tests the individual dog on the physical conformation and temperament qualities as set forth in the Breed Standard. There is a limit on the number of attempts that can be made. It also has a mandatory pass for temperament and sets a minimum age of 18 months. While the conformation quality of a retriever MAY improve with maturity and conditioning, the basic structure changes very little.


The impression I got from talking with people and then reading up on the CCA (as above) is that it's not quite the same thing as a conformation title. Because your dog isn't competing against others, then there's more likelihood of dogs with minor but noticable faults getting their CCA. And I don't think it's a bright idea advising people to breed their dogs based on that. Even though I guess it's better than nothing.



> You're right, logically they shouldn't be as expensive as champion lines. But if I had to spend say $500 more to get a healthy goden retriever in my state, as opposed to traveling out of state to save $500 ... would I really be saving money in the end? Probably not. And spending the extra now, even if it might be somewhat over the top, could save me even more in the long run.


Have you actually looked at other breeders in Pennsylvania and closely surrounding states? Have you spoken to them? Are you that certain that they would be charging even $2000 for a pet quality golden? And keep in mind, you do not save money by going with a short-cut breeder. If your dog is unhealthy or has behavioral problems, then it will most definitely cost you more in the long run. Especially if the breeder's only answer to congenital defects is doing the puppy-shuffle.


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## AmbikaGR

Megora said:


> The impression I got from talking with people and then reading up on the CCA (as above) is that it's not quite the same thing as a conformation title. Because your dog isn't competing against others, then there's more likelihood of dogs with minor but noticable faults getting their CCA. And I don't think it's a bright idea advising people to breed their dogs based on that. Even though I guess it's better than nothing.


And that is exactly the purpose of the CCA. It is no less a title that a CD, CDX, UD, UDX, JH, SH, MH, NA, OA, AX, MX, MACH, TD, TDX, etc. as none of these titles require competing against another dog. As for faults - there is no perfect Golden. (unless you want to consider mine ) Each one has some "fault" and quite often conformation judges are accused of "fault judging" rather than judging the whole dog. I know of instances where a finished champion did not pass all three evaluators at when entered in a CCA. Admittedly rare but it has happened. I also know of some people with champions that will not enter a CCA because it is required to measure every dog and some would not be in the allowable height as stated in the standard. Please do NOT sell the Certificate of Conformation Assessment program short. It has taken a LONG time to get it accepted and VERY valuable in my opinion.


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## Jo Ellen

Megora said:


> Have you actually looked at other breeders in Pennsylvania and closely surrounding states? Have you spoken to them? Are you that certain that they would be charging even $2000 for a pet quality golden? And keep in mind, you do not save money by going with a short-cut breeder. If your dog is unhealthy or has behavioral problems, then it will most definitely cost you more in the long run. Especially if the breeder's only answer to congenital defects is doing the puppy-shuffle.


I'm not in the market for a puppy right now. I'm a one-dog kind of girl  And Daisy will be with me for several more years, I sure am hoping. 

No, I haven't seriously researched breeders in my area. I know I do like Harborview up by Erie, that would definitely be a possibility, if I stay in this area. 

I wouldn't go with a short-cut breeder, except for the champion lines -- I might take a short cut there if all the clearances are in place. I'm just saying that if all the clearances are in place and I have a good first-hand feeling about the breeder and the care of their dogs, I can definitely see myself spending more than the average just for the sake of convenience -- I'm not a happy traveler :


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## LibertyME

Thank you Hank...



AmbikaGR said:


> And that is exactly the purpose of the CCA. It is no less a title that a CD, CDX, UD, UDX, JH, SH, MH, NA, OA, AX, MX, MACH, TD, TDX, etc. as none of these titles require competing against another dog. As for faults - there is no perfect Golden. (unless you want to consider mine ) Each one has some "fault" and quite often conformation judges are accused of "fault judging" rather than judging the whole dog. I know of instances where a finished champion did not pass all three evaluators at when entered in a CCA. Admittedly rare but it has happened. I also know of some people with champions that will not enter a CCA because it is required to measure every dog and some would not be in the allowable height as stated in the standard. Please do NOT sell the Certificate of Conformation Assessment program short. It has taken a LONG time to get it accepted and VERY valuable in my opinion.


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## Megora

AmbikaGR said:


> And that is exactly the purpose of the CCA. It is no less a title that a CD, CDX, UD, UDX, JH, SH, MH, NA, OA, AX, MX, MACH, TD, TDX, etc. as none of these titles require competing against another dog. As for faults - there is no perfect Golden. (unless you want to consider mine ) Each one has some "fault" and quite often conformation judges are accused of "fault judging" rather than judging the whole dog. I know of instances where a finished champion did not pass all three evaluators at when entered in a CCA. Admittedly rare but it has happened. I also know of some people with champions that will not enter a CCA because it is required to measure every dog and some would not be in the allowable height as stated in the standard. Please do NOT sell the Certificate of Conformation Assessment program short. It has taken a LONG time to get it accepted and VERY valuable in my opinion.


Put that way, it does make sense.  

I only brought up the competition angle because I was assuming that a lot of those noticable faults would not win in the ring. I forgot that sometimes the judges can be pretty inexplicable in their decisions. 

That said, I did get the idea talking with people about a CCA thing recently that there are three reasons to do a CCA -

- points towards a Versatility Award, if you are showing a neutered or pet registration dog and are doing everything else but conformation.

- to get an idea how your dog would do in the show ring, if you are thinking about conformation. 

- to learn more about the breed, especially the standard. Unfortunately this means hearing about your dog's faults. 

I'm still not convinced it is an ideal replacement for conformation shows for breeding, but for the above reasons I think it's a good idea.


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## AmbikaGR

Megora said:


> I'm still not convinced it is an ideal replacement for conformation shows for breeding, but for the above reasons I think it's a good idea.



Replacement, no. It will never replace the conformation shows but a GREAT alternative to evaluate a dog's conformation. She should make iit a point to go to one and observe it someday, you will be impressed I am sure.


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## Selli-Belle

I believe the CCA is a valid and valuable part of a breeding plan since it judges the dog directly against the standard rather than against the other dogs in the ring. It is easier to get than a CH if only because you can get it in one day and you don't need to train your dog for the show ring.

It also allows for dogs who are within standard but would not win in the show ring due to not being "in fashion" to demonstrate they are within standard. Selli got her CCA, but would not get her American CH because she does not have enough coat. Her coat is a perfectly acceptable "working" coat, but she would not win in the ring. I know a wonderful dog who has his Canadian CH and even won Best Veteran at the Canadian National, but he is 22 1/2" and does not have a big coat. He was campaigned in the US and won one point. He very easily got his CCA since he is well within standard. He has advanced performance titles and has produced some wonderful pups.

I see no reason not consider the CCA as sufficient proof that the dog meets the standard for breeding if that dog also has advanced performance or field titles.


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## hvgoldens4

l have taken the time to read this entire thread and I am very dismayed. I have also taken the time to view the breeders website and it is a concern to me to see the number of puppies/young adults/adult dogs FOR SALE.

I also want to take the time to answer the followng questions because I think that many people of the pet owning public feel/think the same way:

I like my pet golden. Some golden owners prefer to have champion lines behind their goldens. I want a healthy pet golden retriever -- it doesn't really matter to me what the championship ancestry is.

There's room for all of us in the world of golden retriever ownership. We all care about the health of the breed. When I start looking for my next golden retriever <<heavy sigh, hard to think about that>> I will be looking for a good history of clearances. The titles aren't going to be any type of determining factor for me. I just want a healthy golden retriever to have fun with. 

First, I am a breeder and have been for 15 plus years. I have also been competing with our dogs in some venue during all that time. Why is is important that you have Champions/titles behind your pet golden retriever? Very simply, because you want a golden retriever. There is an AKC standard for every pure bred breed of dog. It is this standard that separates a Golden Retriever from a Labrador Retriever from a Poodle or any other breed. This is called type-it is what allows you to see a dog at a distance and know it is a golden retriever vs. an Irish Setter or a labrador retriever. Some things about the breed are rather obvious but there are also little nuances about each breed and their structure, temperament and personalities that make them what that breed is. The AKC standard addresses the dog and what their structure and temperament is to be from the tip of the nose to the tip of the tail. I am not going to discuss politics, etc in the breed ring. If no one ever followed the breed standard or proved that their dog adhered to the standard, we eventually fall away from the standard and a golden retriever is simply a generic dog. The only way to prove that the dog fits the standard is to show the dog and attain its AKC/CKC championship. There are also height and weight desciptions in the standard so there go those breeders who are breeding for the 100 lb golden. This was the reason that dog shows/specifically conformation dog shows were started. They were a showcase of breeding stock and that is still largely what it is today. There are also other titles as many have mentioned such as hunting and obedience titles. These titles show that the dog can still do the work that they were bred to do and obedience titles show that the dog has the biddability to work as a team with the handler. These are ALL inherent parts of a golden retriever and why so many of us love them and are so passionate about them. You may not think your dog still needs to be able to retrieve to be a family pet, but it was that biddability and workability and strong desire to bond with and to the people the goldens live with that has made us each fall in love with this breed. 

Golden Retrievers require a lot of time, attention, grooming and training to be good dogs. There are only so many hours in the day which is why there have been concerns voiced over the number of dogs that Cynazar goldens have. There are also obvious issues about clearances and hopefully, those are now being addressed. It should also be mentioned that CERF will only take an eye exam that is dated within the past year, so if eye exams are out of date, they will need to be re-done in order to be listed with CERF. It may not seem like a big deal that the breeder has the paper forms from the dogs and hasn't sent them in. But, IT IS!! Unfortunately, there is a very aggressive form of PRA that has immerged in golden retrievers that we fortunately have a DNA test for and there is the issue of PU, which is also a very devastating disease. If the information is not sent into the CERF database, it is lost forever and the information is no longer available to anyone who has a dog from them from future generations and breedings. The same is true about hert clearances that must have a C in them so that you know they were done by a cardiologist. SAS is a very serious disease and unfortunately, I still hear from families every year who have gotten dogs from BYB or other sources that have had dogs litterally keel over in their back yards from SAS. I feel very strongly that if you chose to breed your dog, then you have lost your right to keep any information about that dog private. It becomes too important to the descendants of that dog. No one said that you HAD to breed your dog. It is a decision that shouldn't be taken lightly but if you chose to cross the line and become a breeder, then you have opened yourself up to public scrutiny and questions. If you don't like it, don't breed.

Unfortunately, as many people mentioned, there are not large kennels of golden retriever breeders anymore because of economics. This has actually hurt our breed rather than helped it because it is a fact that there is no way that hobby breeders can produce the number of puppies that the public wants. There are also many people who apply for one of our dogs that get turned away as I don't feel they would be a good home. I am not so stupid to believe that these people will not get a golden retriever. They will-from a BYB or a puppy mill or a pet store. THIS IS WHY OUR BREED AND ANY OTHER BREED HAS RESCUE(( Puppies/dogs from reputable hobby breeders are not what is found in rescue. I also beleive very strongly that if you breed, you better do rescue. We have found homes for 4 golden retrievers in the last month who had NOTHING to do with my own breeding program. One was a 10 week old puppy that a breeder wouldn't take back and yes, people have asked about this breeder on the forum.

Lastly, is the issue about competition again. I know many of you really don't beleive that you need to get a puppy from someone who is showing their dogs in some venue. Nothing could be further from the truth. The people who are at dog shows, hunt test, obedience and agility trials are the guardians of the breed-the true students of the breed that will still be here 10 or 15 years from now and not packed up shop and moved on to something else. I am not saying it is easy to devote the amount of time needed to do well at shows. It is a choice I make. I am a mom to 3 children, the youngest who is only 5 years old. We adopted her 3 years ago and obviously, it meant changing some things with the dogs but I did not drop out of showing nor do I use her or my 19 year old son who plays baseball on the college level as an excuse not to do the things I should be doing with my dogs to prove they are good representatives of the breed. 

I live in PA. I charge $1200 for my puppies. I show my dogs in conformation and many owners also do other venues with their dogs. There is no reason that someone who is charging $2000 for a puppy doesn't have the money to spend getting titles on their dogs. As someone else had mentioned, at the very least a CCA is a starting point for people interested in conformation. It is not a competition but there are 3 evaluators who judge the dog against the standard and the dog is given scores in each area of the standard. If they attain enough points, they get a pass, if not, they can continue on. The same would be said for a CGC. Most of the families who have our dogs as family companions get CGC's on their dogs. There is no reason that a breeder who is doing no other competitive arena with their dogs, cannot get this most basic certificate on their dogs.

I am always available to answer any questions that anyone has, so if my post wasn't clear or you have questions, please feel free to contact me.

Jennifer Craig 
Harborview Goldens


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## Jo Ellen

Oh crap, so much for my someday Harborview golden.

I admit I have a lot to learn, that's why I'm here, in this thread. 

:bricks1:


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## Jo Ellen

I do want to say though that if I was turned away from every reputable breeder in my area, I would still not go to a BYB or a puppy mill. I would, simply, weep. And wait.


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## hvgoldens4

I seriously doubt that a breeder would turned you away We all have to learn and start somewhere. No one is born with an innate knowledge about dogs or golden retrievers.  There is certainly no harm in asking questions. I hope you don't feel that I was picking on you because I chose to quote your post. I only did that because I hear this from a lot of people and I thought it would help clear things up to have a direct post.

I should also add to my last post that everyone also wants a healthy golden retriever. Again, it is the hobby breeder that is studying pedigrees and knows lines and what Fido died from and what age he was when he passed. Those are the breeders that can go thru the whole pedigree of the puppy and tell you how long the dogs lived and why they died and if they had clearances, etc. I am not just talking about dogs that they owned or bred but dogs of influence that go back through all golden retreiver pedigrees. They also follow trends to see if this kennel is having diffuculty getting hip clearances, etc. Again, all of this is because the hobby breeder is a true student of the breed.

Jennifer Craig
Harborview Goldens


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## tippykayak

I hope it's clear that I meant (and said) that HVBs are an economic reality created by the current realities of breeding, but that doesn't mean that anybody ought to get a dog from an HVB or put their money toward perpetuating less-than-ideal breedings.

As much as we push people away from them, though, they're going to exist, so the question becomes what's the most effective way to confront a breeders with more litters than seems wise and those who don't compete and involve themselves in the community, particularly those breeders, like Cynazar, that seem open to input and advice.


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## AmbikaGR

tippykayak said:


> I hope it's clear that I meant (and said) that HVBs are an economic reality created by the current realities of breeding, but that doesn't mean that anybody ought to get a dog from an HVB or put their money toward perpetuating less-than-ideal breedings.
> 
> As much as we push people away from them, though, they're going to exist, so the question becomes what's the most effective way to confront a breeders with more litters than seems wise and those who don't compete and involve themselves in the community, particularly those breeders, like Cynazar, that seem open to input and advice.



In an almost perfect world I would agree - in a perfect one this thread would have no meaning. But many of us have seen over the years as the internet has grown many breeders learning the lingo, saying the right things and promising to do things right and then turn around and continue doing just as they have done in the past. It takes more than words and promises it takes ACTIONS. Now maybe Cynazar will do as they say, only time will tell. But until we see the changes I will remain skeptical. But I am hoping to be proved wrong!


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## tippykayak

AmbikaGR said:


> In an almost perfect world I would agree - in a perfect one this thread would have no meaning. But many of us have seen over the years as the internet has grown many breeders learning the lingo, saying the right things and promising to do things right and then turn around and continue doing just as they have done in the past. It takes more than words and promises it takes ACTIONS. Now maybe Cynazar will do as they say, only time will tell. But until we see the changes I will remain skeptical. But I am hoping to be proved wrong!


That's true. How long does a CERF take to show up in the database? Let's check back in a bit and see if the promised CERFs start showing up.

Right now, Jenne hasn't promised any changes beyond that, but I hope she'll check back in and pick some other things to change.


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## GoldensGirl

Megora said:


> Have you actually looked at other breeders in Pennsylvania and closely surrounding states? Have you spoken to them? Are you that certain that they would be charging even $2000 for a pet quality golden? And keep in mind, you do not save money by going with a short-cut breeder. If your dog is unhealthy or has behavioral problems, then it will most definitely cost you more in the long run. Especially if the breeder's only answer to congenital defects is doing the puppy-shuffle.


I'm in Maryland, which shares a very long border with Pennsylvania, and I did a lot of research on breeders before we got Sunny last August. Much of that research was here on the GRF, by the way. Reputable breeders (recommended by GRF members) in this area commonly charge $1800-$2000 and some charge more. I have also visited the puppy-mill kennels that charge those same high prices without providing the certifications or the championship bloodlines. I cried all the way home after one of those visits.

Having gotten my older Goldens from backyard breeders, I was happy to deal with a breeder of champions and take the sweet not-to-be-bred puppy who will never have to be one. That's based on the belief that I might avoid many thousands of dollars in vet bills, not to mention losing a beloved dog at a young age, as has happened in the recent past. My dogs are family and it is hard to draw the line when it comes to medical procedures that might give us more happy years together. But I would rather pay more up front to get a healthier dog, even though my very spoiled dogs will never be shown and never be bred. 

What kind of guarantee can a breeder give that is meaningful? For everything else we buy, the offer to replace with another item is the best guarantee we can get. Our breeder guarantees to refund up to the purchase price towards medical bills, if any. If what someone wants is a breeding-worthy pup, is this a better guarantee? (This is a serious question. I have no skin in this game except for wanting to learn.)

Thanks for the very educational dialogue.

Lucy


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## hvgoldens4

How long does a CERF take to show up in the database? Let's check back in a bit and see if the promised CERFs start showing up.


Having just sent in a whole bunch of them, it only took about 10 days from when I sent them out to appear on the OFA database.


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## GoldensGirl

hvgoldens4 said:


> ...I live in PA. I charge $1200 for my puppies...
> 
> Jennifer Craig
> Harborview Goldens


Thank you for your wonderful, enlightening posts. Learning from you is a joy!

Based on my own summer 2010 survey of breeders in the mid-Atlantic region, you are probably charging much less for your pups than the market will bear. This is excellent news for the lucky souls who get your pups! :wavey:

Lucy


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## Pointgold

GoldensGirl said:


> Thank you for a very helpful post! I have learned a lot from what you have shared.
> 
> The issue of how puppies are priced is puzzling to me. Doesn't/shouldn't location have something to do with it? I live between Washington, D.C. and Baltimore, MD, and this is a very expensive region, especially compared to a rural setting. The very reputable breeder from whom we got our Sunny last August charges around $2,000 for a puppy - well over the $1,500 you mentioned. She certainly is not running a puppy mill. She does have some older pups and young dogs for sale - dogs she kept to assess for breeding and then decided they didn't make the grade, so has trained (some have titles) and neutered them and wants to place them in good homes.
> 
> How should price be determined? From what I have read on the GRF and other sites, $1,500 per puppy doesn't come close to covering the cost of having a healthy litter from championship parents. That cost includes the parents' clearances and regular re-examinations, training and showing to maintain the standards and validate the breeding program, vet care for the parents and all the puppies, etc. I don't want to support a puppy mill of any kind, but I also don't think the breeder should have to subsidize every puppy sold. If every puppy represents a significant financial loss to a responsible breeder, only the irresponsible ones will survive!
> 
> The health problems of Goldens are a particular concern to me. The databases don't seem to reflect problems that many of us agonize over - cancer, for example, which plagues the breed. And seizures, which apparently afflict 20-25% of Goldens, according to a GRF survey. These problems typically develop after a dog might be bred by a responsible breeder, but can't something be done to track these problems in a line? How can those of us who are not breeders but do care about the breed help? What is our responsibility to the community of Goldens and those who love them?
> 
> I am mindful that the person responding to our questions about Cynazar is 18 years old. I think she has handled the questions with courtesy, though I realize that the answers may not be everything some GRF members want to see. Perhaps I am naive, but I sense that she is learning from this process and I hope she will stay here and learn to be the kind of breeder whose dogs enhance the Golden Retriever breed, if that is not already the case.
> 
> Thanks again for helping me learn about these issues and grow as a Golden lover.
> 
> Lucy


 
_I _show and compete with my dogs, and just because it is what _I _do, my puppy buyers shouldn't have to pay for it. If breeders were to price their puppies based on what we have paid for our dogs, fed our dogs, how much we have spent putting titles on them, their clearances, etc etc etc, no one could afford to buy them. Breeders who are doing all of this are doing it for themselves - we breed a litter in hopes of having our next show dog and to continue our breeding programs - which when carefully planned will somehow benefit the breed as well. I will not go so far as to say that I am bettering the breed, although I strive to, I am at the very least maintaining it. 
As for breeding programs - simply breeding lots of dogs is not a "breeding program". There needs to be a plan, a goal, some rhyme or reason to the breedings made - not simply pumping out more puppies and never having any sort of objective measure (ie participating in some competitive venue) by which to guage your progress/success. 
Frankly, I cannot justify a pet puppy, out of untitled parents, costing any more than $800.00. Not when lovely show potential puppies out of finished/titled sire and dam (and many generations of champions from grand and great grands back...,)with generations of clearances can be purchased for $1000.00 - $2000.00 in most areas of the US.


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## Bender

Jo Ellen said:


> I just want to add this ... I'll probably get flamed but I think I have a good point and I know I'm not alone.
> 
> I like my pet golden. Some golden owners prefer to have champion lines behind their goldens. I want a healthy pet golden retriever -- it doesn't really matter to me what the championship ancestry is.
> 
> There's room for all of us in the world of golden retriever ownership. We all care about the health of the breed. When I start looking for my next golden retriever <<heavy sigh, hard to think about that>> I will be looking for a good history of clearances. The titles aren't going to be any type of determining factor for me. I just want a healthy golden retriever to have fun with.
> 
> What is wrong with this way of thinking?



Well, for one thing, you are supporting breeders who do 'short cut'. 

Showing takes a LOT of time, money and commitment. It means going that extra bit to get off your butt, train your dog, condition them and take them out to new places and work on getting those titles. It may not mean much to a pet person, but it means a lot to the breeder who cares enough to do it. It means instead of that money from that pup going into that breeder's anual trip to Vegas fund, it goes back into dogs.

It also is proof, that that parent dog is able to go out in public and do something. That they are mentally stable enough to deal with lots of dogs and pressure to 'work' in some form, without freaking, spooking or going 'cujo' on other dogs or people. That should mean a lot to a pet person IMO.

Take Ticket for example, my 7 year old border collie. Come to the house and he's a doll, very sweet, nice boy. But, take him to a show situation and he's (for lack of a better term) an A$$! I may do rally with him at some point, but really he's better off at home, simply because if there's the wrong type of dog at a show in the wrong situation, it's not going to be pretty. Yet I could (but won't) get his clearances and breed him and nobody would know the difference, until their 'pet' border collie starts acting out. I don't know if they would or not to be honest, it could just be how he was trained and the situations I put him in (but learned from), but I have learned a ton from him and if I ever breed a pup that ends up with the same issues, I can certainly help that owner through it and save that dog.

That's one thing that always kills me when people don't see why titles matter - it's experience on the breeder's end that will help that puppy owner down the road. Someone sitting in their backyard breeding dogs, even with clearances, isn't going to be going to dog training seminars or researching how to raise a better puppy. If they have indoor/outdoor runs and a dozen or more kennel dogs, do they even have a clue on housebreaking a puppy? 

Just my thoughts, but I'd rather support a breeder who is doing everything AND getting out there with their dogs, over the 'quality byb' type - in the end if the dogs don't leave the backyard, they're byb's.

Lana


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## Pointgold

hvgoldens4 said:


> l have taken the time to read this entire thread and I am very dismayed. I have also taken the time to view the breeders website and it is a concern to me to see the number of puppies/young adults/adult dogs FOR SALE.
> 
> I also want to take the time to answer the followng questions because I think that many people of the pet owning public feel/think the same way:
> 
> I like my pet golden. Some golden owners prefer to have champion lines behind their goldens. I want a healthy pet golden retriever -- it doesn't really matter to me what the championship ancestry is.
> 
> There's room for all of us in the world of golden retriever ownership. We all care about the health of the breed. When I start looking for my next golden retriever <<heavy sigh, hard to think about that>> I will be looking for a good history of clearances. The titles aren't going to be any type of determining factor for me. I just want a healthy golden retriever to have fun with.
> 
> First, I am a breeder and have been for 15 plus years. I have also been competing with our dogs in some venue during all that time. Why is is important that you have Champions/titles behind your pet golden retriever? Very simply, because you want a golden retriever. There is an AKC standard for every pure bred breed of dog. It is this standard that separates a Golden Retriever from a Labrador Retriever from a Poodle or any other breed. This is called type-it is what allows you to see a dog at a distance and know it is a golden retriever vs. an Irish Setter or a labrador retriever. Some things about the breed are rather obvious but there are also little nuances about each breed and their structure, temperament and personalities that make them what that breed is. The AKC standard addresses the dog and what their structure and temperament is to be from the tip of the nose to the tip of the tail. I am not going to discuss politics, etc in the breed ring. If no one ever followed the breed standard or proved that their dog adhered to the standard, we eventually fall away from the standard and a golden retriever is simply a generic dog. The only way to prove that the dog fits the standard is to show the dog and attain its AKC/CKC championship. There are also height and weight desciptions in the standard so there go those breeders who are breeding for the 100 lb golden. This was the reason that dog shows/specifically conformation dog shows were started. They were a showcase of breeding stock and that is still largely what it is today. There are also other titles as many have mentioned such as hunting and obedience titles. These titles show that the dog can still do the work that they were bred to do and obedience titles show that the dog has the biddability to work as a team with the handler. These are ALL inherent parts of a golden retriever and why so many of us love them and are so passionate about them. You may not think your dog still needs to be able to retrieve to be a family pet, but it was that biddability and workability and strong desire to bond with and to the people the goldens live with that has made us each fall in love with this breed.
> 
> Golden Retrievers require a lot of time, attention, grooming and training to be good dogs. There are only so many hours in the day which is why there have been concerns voiced over the number of dogs that Cynazar goldens have. There are also obvious issues about clearances and hopefully, those are now being addressed. It should also be mentioned that CERF will only take an eye exam that is dated within the past year, so if eye exams are out of date, they will need to be re-done in order to be listed with CERF. It may not seem like a big deal that the breeder has the paper forms from the dogs and hasn't sent them in. But, IT IS!! Unfortunately, there is a very aggressive form of PRA that has immerged in golden retrievers that we fortunately have a DNA test for and there is the issue of PU, which is also a very devastating disease. If the information is not sent into the CERF database, it is lost forever and the information is no longer available to anyone who has a dog from them from future generations and breedings. The same is true about hert clearances that must have a C in them so that you know they were done by a cardiologist. SAS is a very serious disease and unfortunately, I still hear from families every year who have gotten dogs from BYB or other sources that have had dogs litterally keel over in their back yards from SAS. I feel very strongly that if you chose to breed your dog, then you have lost your right to keep any information about that dog private. It becomes too important to the descendants of that dog. No one said that you HAD to breed your dog. It is a decision that shouldn't be taken lightly but if you chose to cross the line and become a breeder, then you have opened yourself up to public scrutiny and questions. If you don't like it, don't breed.
> 
> Unfortunately, as many people mentioned, there are not large kennels of golden retriever breeders anymore because of economics. This has actually hurt our breed rather than helped it because it is a fact that there is no way that hobby breeders can produce the number of puppies that the public wants. There are also many people who apply for one of our dogs that get turned away as I don't feel they would be a good home. I am not so stupid to believe that these people will not get a golden retriever. They will-from a BYB or a puppy mill or a pet store. THIS IS WHY OUR BREED AND ANY OTHER BREED HAS RESCUE(( Puppies/dogs from reputable hobby breeders are not what is found in rescue. I also beleive very strongly that if you breed, you better do rescue. We have found homes for 4 golden retrievers in the last month who had NOTHING to do with my own breeding program. One was a 10 week old puppy that a breeder wouldn't take back and yes, people have asked about this breeder on the forum.
> 
> Lastly, is the issue about competition again. I know many of you really don't beleive that you need to get a puppy from someone who is showing their dogs in some venue. Nothing could be further from the truth. The people who are at dog shows, hunt test, obedience and agility trials are the guardians of the breed-the true students of the breed that will still be here 10 or 15 years from now and not packed up shop and moved on to something else. I am not saying it is easy to devote the amount of time needed to do well at shows. It is a choice I make. I am a mom to 3 children, the youngest who is only 5 years old. We adopted her 3 years ago and obviously, it meant changing some things with the dogs but I did not drop out of showing nor do I use her or my 19 year old son who plays baseball on the college level as an excuse not to do the things I should be doing with my dogs to prove they are good representatives of the breed.
> 
> I live in PA. I charge $1200 for my puppies. I show my dogs in conformation and many owners also do other venues with their dogs. There is no reason that someone who is charging $2000 for a puppy doesn't have the money to spend getting titles on their dogs. As someone else had mentioned, at the very least a CCA is a starting point for people interested in conformation. It is not a competition but there are 3 evaluators who judge the dog against the standard and the dog is given scores in each area of the standard. If they attain enough points, they get a pass, if not, they can continue on. The same would be said for a CGC. Most of the families who have our dogs as family companions get CGC's on their dogs. There is no reason that a breeder who is doing no other competitive arena with their dogs, cannot get this most basic certificate on their dogs.
> 
> I am always available to answer any questions that anyone has, so if my post wasn't clear or you have questions, please feel free to contact me.
> 
> Jennifer Craig
> Harborview Goldens


 
Excellent post, Jennifer. It always concerns me when people scoff at the standard - "it doesn't matter, because I'm not showing", or, "I LIKE great big (or, little tiny) Goldens!" etc etc. So, the mills and BYB's, and HVB's say "BINGO! A MARKET! And, we don't need no stinkin' standard!" And more and more are pumped out. Many with incomplete (if any) clearances. And, because of the internet, mainly, fancy marketing (English Cream/Creme, Platinum, RARE.....etc etc) dupes a nice, but ill-informed general public into buying overpriced puppies that more often than not are poor, unsound examples of the breed.


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## GoldensGirl

Pointgold said:


> _I _show and compete with my dogs, and just because it is what _I _do, my puppy buyers shouldn't have to pay for it. If breeders were to price their puppies based on what we have paid for our dogs, fed our dogs, how much we have spent putting titles on them, their clearances, etc etc etc, no one could afford to buy them.


Exactly. But if we insist that puppy prices should be low, don't we run the risk of the would-be responsible hobby breeders being driven from the arena because the costs are too high and there is very little return on the investment? I realize that "hobby breeder" implies that this is _not_ a business, but I suspect that it can't be a losing proposition for very long for most people. I fear that will leave quite a void that puppy mills are likely to fill.



Pointgold said:


> Breeders who are doing all of this are doing it for themselves - we breed a litter in hopes of having our next show dog and to continue our breeding programs - which when carefully planned will somehow benefit the breed as well. I will not go so far as to say that I am bettering the breed, although I strive to, I am at the very least maintaining it.


I know far less than you do about the whole process. From what I have read of your posts in this and many other threads, I have no doubt that you are in fact improving the breed. Bless you!



Pointgold said:


> As for breeding programs - simply breeding lots of dogs is not a "breeding program". There needs to be a plan, a goal, some rhyme or reason to the breedings made - not simply pumping out more puppies and never having any sort of objective measure (ie participating in some competitive venue) by which to guage your progress/success.
> Frankly, I cannot justify a pet puppy, out of untitled parents, costing any more than $800.00. Not when lovely show potential puppies out of finished/titled sire and dam (and many generations of champions from grand and great grands back...,)with generations of clearances can be purchased for $1000.00 - $2000.00 in most areas of the US.


All of this reassures me that I made a good decision when I chose the breeder we bought from last summer. I studied her web site and saw a steady improvement in the longevity and health of her dogs. Complete novice that I was/am, the breeding choices made sense to me in terms of what I saw in the certifications. When I began the research, I had no idea that I was going to take a crash course in clearances, genetic issues, etc. It takes a lot more time than I expected when I started the puppy quest - time well spent, mind you. 



Pointgold said:


> Frankly, I cannot justify a pet puppy, out of untitled parents, costing any more than $800.00. Not when lovely show potential puppies out of finished/titled sire and dam (and many generations of champions from grand and great grands back...,)with generations of clearances can be purchased for $1000.00 - $2000.00 in most areas of the US.


Adjusted for inflation, my beloved back-yard-breeder Goldens probably would cost that $800 today. I have more than made up the price difference in very high vet bills to take care of my boys. That's one reason why I did the research and opted for a very reputable breeder this year.

Thank you again for helping me learn. Every post from you and other breeders who know so much is helpful. The more I understand about your concerns, the better I will do for my own Goldens and as a member of the GRF community. I'd like to think that there will be a long-term reward for you, in that having a more knowledgeable will help the breed and the responsible breeders. And maybe other breeders are learning from you, too!

Lucy


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## GoldensGirl

Bender said:


> ...It also is proof, that that parent dog is able to go out in public and do something. That they are mentally stable enough to deal with lots of dogs and pressure to 'work' in some form, without freaking, spooking or going 'cujo' on other dogs or people. That should mean a lot to a pet person IMO.


Excellent point!



Bender said:


> That's one thing that always kills me when people don't see why titles matter - it's experience on the breeder's end that will help that puppy owner down the road. Someone sitting in their backyard breeding dogs, even with clearances, isn't going to be going to dog training seminars or researching how to raise a better puppy. If they have indoor/outdoor runs and a dozen or more kennel dogs, do they even have a clue on housebreaking a puppy?


Also a valuable insight.

Thank you for taking time to share your perspective. We "pet people" need to hear this - or at least _I _ need to. The more I learn, the more respect I have for what the best of breeders do, but I admit that I have been pretty clueless. I am grateful for the careful explanations that are changing that.

Thanks again,
Lucy


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## hvgoldens4

Goldens girl wrote:
Exactly. But if we insist that puppy prices should be low, don't we run the risk of the would-be responsible hobby breeders being driven from the arena because the costs are too high and there is very little return on the investment? I realize that "hobby breeder" implies that this is _not_ a business, but I suspect that it can't be a losing proposition for very long for most people. I fear that will leave quite a void that puppy mills are likely to fill.

Jennifer wrote: 
Just because a family wants to be able to afford a puppy doesn't mean that a hobby breeder must make that family subsidize every cost for the dogs. Feeding dogs and basic care are something that EVERY pet owner has to do and should not enter into the equation for a hobby breeder. There will be some adjustments for cost of living, seemingly on both coasts, but there also has to be a happy medium. Housing prices and food, gas, etc may be higher in some parts of the country but the cost of entering a dog show is no more here in PA than it is in CA. The same is true about stud fees and most costs for breeding. Puppies cannot be priced so that the average family cannot afford a well bred puppy or again, we have made an "in" for the BYB, HVB or puppy mill. 

While we are on this thread there is one other question that I would like people to ponder about the BYB type who doesn't have or pursue any titles on their dogs but may be doing some clearances and seem like they have nice enough dogs. Where do you think they got their original breeding stock from? Did those dogs come from the best hobby breeder or another BYB type person who was willing to sell them a dog on full registration? Did they purchase the best dogs to import from overseas so they could claim they have "english" imports? In 99% of the cases, the answer would be no. So, when you are not breeding the best of the best, how can you justify charging the same amount or more money than someone who is showing their dogs and doing all the clearances and giving all the care needed to the dogs for training etc? When you do purchase a puppy from them, YOU are part of the problem. YOU are keeping that person in business, because yes, that is what this is to them. Where do you think the money they sell their puppies for is going? Most have spotty clearances, no showing expenses, are breeding to other males that they own or that another BYB friend owns, so just how much of that puppy sale is going back into the dogs and how much is going into their pocket for the fancy house or those nice vacations? Someone saying they have an eye for a dog is not enough. Meeting the dog or seeing photos and it seems pretty enough or sweet enough, does not make the dog a golden retriever or what a golden is supposed to be. PROVE IT!!! Would you buy a clunker from a car salesman because they said it was a BMW?? Absolutely not! You would want a title and verifications and you would want them to show you why this is a BMW. Shouldn't you want the same in your next family member?? Make the breeder prove to you that they know the standard by attaining titles on their dogs and doing clearances and belonging to dog clubs so that they are continuing their education. 

A hobby breeder does this because they LOVE the dogs-plain and simple. They aren't trying to make money or supplement their income. If I break even, I am a happy camper. When I say I am breaking even, that doesn't include the time that I spend raising puppies and talking with people about the breed or to families who have our dogs because I love these dogs and that is something that I just do!

Someone else asked about where they can go to get information about cancers and what they can do to help the breed....EDUCATE!!! Talk to other people and tell them what it takes to have a good golden retriever. The K9database will usually not give you specific information about cancer in dogs but you can certainly look up longevity on there and see how long a particular breeders dogs are living. Unfortunately, there are no guarantees on cancer. Genetics is part of it but there are also other indicators. So, make sure that your puppy came from parents, grandparents that were long lived or are still living. Keep in touch with your breeder and let them know if you are having an health concerns with your puppy/dog. Lastly, check the GRCA website often. There are many organizations that are continually sponsoring research into the many problems that plague this breed. Those studies need participants-so if your dog does have a problem that the GRCA or some other organization is doing a study on, take the time and send in the samples needed so that you many one day be able to stop another golden retriever from suffering the same fate as your own. 

Jennifer


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## Pointgold

Cynazar Goldens said:


> If this is what you think I did - call three or four of my puppy owners to come praise our dogs - then you are wrong. I brought this thread to the attention of ALL of my puppy owners, not just the ones that I'm "close" with.
> See our OFA records- they are there. I am growing tired of debating over the CERF's, so I will let you know once they are posted in the CERF database. We have worked hard for many years to get where we are, too. The Golden Retriever is our only breed, and we try to the best of our abilities to produce the best puppies possible.
> I have nothing to hide either, and I believe that there should be more people defending good breeding practices. I am not falsely advertising any of our puppies on the site. Also, I don't doubt you that you must have wonderful dogs. I cannot insinuate that your dogs are of a low quality because I haven't heard anyone who has actually owned one of your dogs tell me anything negative about them.


 
Where are they? If dogs carry the Cynazar prefix, then there are relatively few of them in the database (28 total) and none of those are complete - some are hips only, some are cardiac only, and only a couple with old CERF.

You wrote:
"Dogs that we sell under a full registration must go to appropriate settings. Most of the full reg. dogs that we have sold lately have gone to assistance dog associations looking for healthy, sturdy, and mellow-tempered breeding stock for their program. They take excellent care in doing every sort of test and clearance, as well as keep their dogs healthy and well cared for. The puppies all go to training in order to learn to help those in need- they become the hands, ears, eyes, and special companion for a person who really needs it. After the dogs retire from breeding, they are placed with one of their pre-screened families from their adoption waiting list. What is even more is that we as the breeder are kept informed as to what our dogs are doing."

Can you share the service dog organizations that you refer to? They would have Cynazar dogs in the databases as well, if doing all clearances. So, figuring that at least some of them are yours, and some belong to service dog organizations, that means that even fewer are in there of your own. For as many as are being produced there, where are they all?


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## BeauShel

In my thread and rant of white goldens that I posted this morning, I noticed that your name came up when I googled white goldens. To me this knocks you out of my book for ever getting a dog or recommending you as a breeder even if you did all the required clearances. I am sure you are a nice person and love your dogs but that really bothered me and said alot to me. Because no legimate breeder that is breeding for the right reasons will list their dogs as "White Goldens" For one there is no such thing according to the AKC or GRCA as a white golden retriever. The AKC's exact quote for color is "Rich, lustrous golden of various shades. White goldens would not be allowed to be shown in the show ring. And the GRCA has information about white goldens Golden Retriever Club of America - All About Goldens. 

And on your website you list your dogs as white and various shades of gold. I dont understand that. Anyone looking at the picture can tell the color of the dog. Someone told me onetime their golden was white because it came from an english line. Well any of the people here from the UK will tell you their dogs are not white they are cream color or light golden.


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## tippykayak

Just to further quote the standards:

AKC: "Predominant body color which is either extremely pale or extremely dark is undesirable."

KC (United Kingdom): "Any shade of gold or cream, neither red nor mahogany. A few white hairs on chest only, permissible."

A truly white dog meets neither standard and should not be bred. That doesn't mean he can't be a lovely pet.


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## Cynazar Goldens

GoldensGirl said:


> I understand this concern. Isn't the number of people who are there to work with the dogs also relevant? A home with several adults and teenagers might be able to handle 20-25 dogs, but one woman and a teenage daughter might have difficulty, at least judging by the demands/commands of our three Goldens.
> ....


That is very relevant! Three teenagers and two adults putting 100% of their attention towards our Goldens counts a lot, I'd say. That's what happens here. Our dogs are all kept in the house, so it is impossible _not_ to give them the attention that they deserve. If anyone is wondering, they are let out in "shifts" - you can't let the males run with the females, obviously. I have the girls separated in two groups to make it easier (the larger the group, the more mischief they get into), and the two adolescents explore together with two of our studs, who are good in the house (no lifting of the leg) and who are unexpectedly friendly with other in-tact males. Our two other studs are, well, just that- studs. They can get snippy with another dominant male, which is to be expected, so we have to put them in their own runs. Before that they are run to make sure that they get plenty of exercise.
The only time everyone has to go away (or shuffled into the next room, at least) is a) when I'm cooking, and b) sleep time. Tripping over furry bodies while reaching for the frying pans can be cumbersome, and rolling over only to discover that several furry bodies have commandeered the covers is not too comfortable! Our doors have large windows in them, so even when I shuffle them into the next room, when I turn around I can't help but notice the many eyes peeking through the glass to see what I am doing. They make me laugh very hard at some of the things they do! You can imagine that the whole house is dog-proofed, however we do have a loose Bearded Dragon in the den that scuttles from one end of the room to the other every so often (his name is "Lizerd", we've had him for 6 years, and he is VERY calm). The dogs don't seem to bother him. We also have four cats that think they are dogs (in my opinion, a Golden breeder should always make sure that their dogs and puppies become accustomed to cats from a young age).

I hope that answers your question! I am only going to get to a few questions answered at the moment, since it will be 2:30 AM soon and I am exhausted. I figured I'd stay up and answer one at least, just to let everyone know that I'm still alive .


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## Cynazar Goldens

eeneymeanymineymo said:


> I read her response to 'guaranteed clearances under full registration' Jo Ellen and , if you are a breeder or have ever bred a litter of puppies, you would understand that there are never any guarantees to the health or clearances on a dog and no way can you make a claim that they dog is 'guaranteed' to pass. If this were true, then every dog used in one's breeding program would *magically* be perfect conformationally, *magically* get their clearances and *magically* produce the next BIS puppy from every single litter! Let me blow the dust off my crystal ball...
> 
> My interpretation is my own of her website & breeding practices. This is my last comment on this thread.


Please understand what a "guarantee" means. It means that if the dog does not pass - which some dogs may not - we _replace_ them. Never did I write that our dogs *magically* get their clearances and *magically* produce champions. Honestly, I don't understand how you can get my words twisted to this extent. The guarantee simply _guarantees_ that the breeder ends up with a dog that will pass it's clearances- whether it be the first one they choose, or a replacement dog if that one doesn't pass. There is no magic when it comes to passing clearances. Either the dog is healthy, or it is not. That is why we take the extra step to do pre-lim x-rays, to _ensure_ that the dog will pass.


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## Cynazar Goldens

Megora said:


> ....
> And the important thing is that these people were able to tell me which litter to look at for an obedience dog, this because they worked with and trained their dogs, and knew which female was especially responsive to training.
> ....
> Compare that to the small hobby breeder who was so busy showing her goldens to give particular attention to obedience training or household obedience. All of her dogs were wild. They all barked like idiots. And this translated to the types of puppies she produced. We loved our golden out of this breeder and he was our angel boy. He never growled in his entire life. But he was a little more difficult to housetrain and train. The barking was pretty bad.
> ....
> For those goldens being bred... it does help a lot when you rehome them. Please don't take this the wrong way, but maybe if the 5 year old golden were well-trained and socialized with other people, she might not have taken off running and gotten killed.
> ....


Even though I do not compete in obedience (yet), I am VERY well aware of which of my dogs learn more quickly and are more responsive to commands. We have two extremes here- Elvis and Diamond. Elvis is too busy "having fun" to listen for what you'd like him to do. Diamond (daughter of Chase from the Trenton Thunders team) is SO intelligent, that she knows what you're going to tell her before you tell her to do it. When you live with your dogs, you end up getting to know them in and out.

The breeder you bought your angel boy from obviously didn't have enough time to spend with their dogs, or just not enough patience to teach them how to behave. They certainly aren't a horrible and disreputable breeder because of that, though - they just need to reorganize their schedule in order to fit more doggy quality time in.

I am trying not to take your comment the wrong way, but she was one of our very first Golden Retrievers, and she was VERY well socialized and well behaved. We treated her like a princess, and she LOVED meeting new people. You couldn't have asked for a friendlier or more accepting dog. The most well-adjusted dog in the world can still feel a little strange when first separated from their original family. Our Golden was being such a good girl- if the family hadn't yelled after her, she would have stood still and let them pick up the end of the leash, or probably walk towards them with a wagging tail. Any dog being yelled at, not having any idea where it is, will become upset. It was not her fault that they left the gate open, and she certainly didn't "bolt out of the back yard in a panic". She needed a few days to adjust. She would have lived the rest of her years to the fullest with them. It was the wrong place at the wrong time- the whole thing happened within the first two hours of being at that family's home.


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## Cynazar Goldens

mybuddy said:


> Holy Cow...you are only 18??? I must say, you are VERY mature, polite and well mannered.
> 
> I do believe it is a testament as to how you were raised. Your Mom sounds like a great lady.
> 
> I think I read somewhere back that you like to trick your babies into eating vegies. I got a bit of a giggle from that, thinking about my Buddy. Heck, he steals them off the counter. There is nothing that boy wont eat. Cute yes, but yikes...not so cute when licking gum off the road!
> 
> I am so glad you are here. Hugs to you, your Mom and your beautiful pups.
> 
> Buddy sends his extra special pic just for you!


*Thank you so much, that means a lot to me!*
Your post is the nicest one I've seen here.
Buddy sounds like a female we used to have a few years back named "Arwen". She would eat absolutely anything, and also loved to de-squeak squeaky toys. Talk about driving me nuts!! LOL
I can see from his picture that Buddy is very handsome!


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## Cynazar Goldens

Selli-Belle said:


> For meeting the breed standard, the GRCA has the wonderful CCA program which is non-competitive and so so informative for the owners. In terms of obedience there is the CGC, but I don't think it is too much to ask for someone sells puppies to get out to go to a few obedience trials and get a CD. If you have Goldens who are of breeding quality, they should be able to do this easily.


You are right and I agree with you. I want to pick up where I left off with the competitions. We used to go all the time when I was little.


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## Cynazar Goldens

tippykayak said:


> ....
> I don't agree that it's OK to breed Goldens solely as pets and just to match up nice looking, sweet dogs, because it's too easy to lose sight of the important elements, like structure, temperament, and ability.


We pay particularly close attention to structure in our dogs.
As you know, temperament is a must as well.
We don't do field work with our dogs, but we do breed for dogs that are calm, happy, intelligent, gentle, listen intently, and are always willing to please. Personally, I prefer Goldens without that "birdy" instinct. Snowangel (one of our girls that is available) is VERY birdy - to the point where when I'm holding a chicken, NOTHING will break her concentration. The other day she realized that there is a stuffed goose hanging in our house- she stared at that thing for an hour before losing interest. She is an excellent dog, but I can't bring myself to trust her around my pet chickens :/.


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## Cynazar Goldens

Ljilly28 said:


> ....
> I have already had someone ask if they could breed to Copley, and it was easy to say NO for twofold reasons: 1) this forum has taught me about the gravity of breeding even one litter and 2) Copley comes from a breeder who raises each litter in the house where all her dogs live and are loved. She specified in a contract I respect that he must pass all his final clearances and attain at least an Am Ch to be bred after age two.


Our puppies are raised in our kitchen as well, and our dogs live in the house with us. We also require that any breeding dog sold must pass its clearances before it is to be bred. We are on the same page as far as this.



Ljilly28 said:


> Even if all that happened, I would/will not breed Copley if he does not have working titles in obedience or if Whyatt/ Harley also complete their championships and are conformationally stronger/better dogs.
> 
> This is just about one dog- 30 dogs?


Now the number is 30? Before you insinuated that we have 25. Please make a note - 18 dogs.



Ljilly28 said:


> Breeding puppies should be about upholding and bettering the breed standard, not about making money. A breeder I respect who owns one of the most titled goldens of his generation will not allow any pups to be sold for more than 1,500 dollars because she wants to safeguard the process from people with a profit motive. Selling a dog for 2,600 who does not meet the AKC's minimum standard for a golden isn't something I could do with a clear conscience.


A breeder interested only in profit would not care as to where his or her dogs go. Has anything I've said thus far made you feel that I am breeding out of greed for money?
The only dog I have listed at $2,600 is Pogo, and he is the most expensive dog I have listed. This is because he is a stunningly gorgeous and correct example of the Golden Retriever. I understand that there are many breeders that abhore the cream and white colors, but there are others that specifically breed for that color. Please note- achieving the lighter coat color is one of the least important things to us in our breeding program. We breed for the quality of the dog, not the color it is. Our European Goldens are out of champion European dogs. Will you tell the breeders in Europe that produce white champions that they are not breeding true Goldens? That they are harming the breed by breeding white? The Golden Retriever came from Europe - who are we to tell them that the true Goldens aren't true Goldens?



Ljilly28 said:


> For me, 20-30 untitled kennel dogs producing and producing more and more puppies? Buyer beware; shame on the breeder.


Please inform me as to when I stated that we have 20 - 30 puppy-producing dogs caged up in cold, isolated kennels? Out of our 12 girls, 2 are spayed, and 2 are retired. Out of the rest, some are still under 2 years of age. They are all kept in the house. I believe that Goldens are family dogs, period.
I thought that a "high volume breeder" was one that breeds seven or more litters. I feel like I am in the twilight zone, because what you are describing is certainly nothing close to our breeding program. Buyer beware of the attrocity you are describing. You are shaming me for what, exactly?



Ljilly28 said:


> It is a serious matter to produce even one litter with a breeder's undivided attention to the socialization of each puppy. To produce 50-100 puppies a year in a kennel situation and have pups unsold at age 6, 10 months? Not for me.


If you believe for one moment that I do not cherish every single life brought into this world, you are mistaken. You will not find anyone who works as hard as me to revive a "dead" new born, or to care for the _family members_ I call Cynazar Goldens.
I couldn't even imagine owning 100 puppies, no less taking care of that many at once. Each litter we have I do give my undivided attention to.
Whose kennel situation are you describing? We don't have a kennel in PA, or NJ. We don't own, lease, or use a kennel building anywhere.
Puppies that we make available at 6-10 months old are the Picks of the litter. We usually do not sell the pick puppy, so we can get a better idea of how they will turn out as they grow. This is the only way to be able to continue breeding the best of the best of what you have. The reason why they were not sold when young, is because we made them _unavailable_. Also, at the moment I have no puppies 6-10 months old. Where did you see otherwise?



Ljilly28 said:


> To me, the bare minimum separating a puppy mill from a serious breeder is that the dogs prove themselves excellent representations of the golden retriever standard. Otherwise, over time, type is lost and the essence of a breed is lost. Breeding white or black dogs and calling them "golden retrievers" anyway, claiming the dogs answer someone's eye for perfection but never testing them in the company of their peers, charging 1000$ more per puppy than the number 1 golden in America's puppies? Not for me. Keeping 25-35 dogs in kennels, placing the older girls when they are done reproducing, and having myriad dogs under one years old for sale . . . That is not going to be for me.


Now you are calling us a puppy mill? We do produce excellent representations of the Golden Retriever Standard - both American and European. You are making it sound like we are breeding mutts, please clue me in as to what black dogs we have in our breeding program?
Again with this mystery kennel you speak of that holds 35 dogs inside.
I want to get something straight about our retiring females- a healthy female can be bred up until age 9 in an ethical manner. We CHOOSE to retire our females at the young age of 5. Most breeders think that that is throwing a perfectly good breeding female away. If anything, the fact that we retire our girls so early shows that we are not in it for the profit, but for the well-being of the dog.
Please list the myriad of dogs that I have available under one year old. Are you referring to a whopping total of 7 puppies?



Ljilly28 said:


> Others feel differently, and I wish the best to any puppy born on this earth.
> 
> I am trying to imagine adding 25 more dogs to Copley, Tally,and Finn, including many under one years old. I am trying to imagine housebreaking each one, teaching them their manners, introducing them to 100 people, 12 walking surfaces, teaching them sit, stay, heel, leave it, touch- all the fun, magical puppy things that ideally happen in a critical window of time.


If you assume that I do not do a good enough job raising my puppies, I am sorry that you feel that way. How can you tell me that I do a bad job, especially considering you have never even met one of my puppies. At least speak with someone who owns one of our dogs.
I am deeply disturbed by the false accusations and gross exaggerations that you have stated in this post concerning our breeding program. I am sickened that you believe that I could play a part in an operation such as you described here.


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## Ljilly28

Jenne, your mom has heard feedback from peers about her web site in this thread. If you ever have one of your own, I hope you consider the views expressed when it comes to how many dogs can be trained in a day and the need to support claims of expertise in things like structure and temperament by getting out there and competing shoulder to shoulder with other goldens.

Take every dog you own through CGC, CCA, and CD this year in 2011; With five people involved in the care of the dogs all day, it is a very attainable goal. Try a JH. Rally O titles are extremely user-friendly and easy to attain with even just a little team work with a golden. Ideally, if you want the respect of other responsible breeders, you need to work for Am CH, Can CH, UD. SH. . . It is not that the pet owners need to do this, but the breeder does. 

18 dogs with a litter of pups on the way is a lot, a lot of dogs, especially when several are under one years old. A litter of 10 in January could get you to 28. IF someone (anyone)charges more for an untitled white golden with untitled parents than puppies from a Westminster Best Of Breed dog with his Obedience Hall Of Fame and field titles, it does seem like commercializing for profit motive. I looked at a litter from a dual dog hall of fame dog with extraordinary accomplishments in field, showring, obedience ring bred to a CH girl. Price? 1,400 plus giving the pup fantastic opportunities to excel and be happy. . . If you step so high above what responsible breeders find responsible as a peer group, it doesnt mean you're not nice to your puppies, but it does raise questions about why you want to do that.

I really hope you will join your closest GR club, get involved with other ethical breeders in real life, and participate in the larger golden retriever community. Pay your GRCA dues and subscribe to the GR News( hopefully your already do this), join the breeders email list, study the "blue book", find a mentor outside the immediate family, compete in a dog show, compete in the obedience ring, compete in Rally O and go out to a field training group to put a JH on Pogo. Am CH Pogo JH WC CDX? Can Ch Pogo CD CGC? Each title represents so much team work between human and dog. It will feel awesome if you do it.


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## Cynazar Goldens

AmbikaGR said:


> ....
> But to be fair Cynazar did request this thread be opened. Only they know the reason for that.
> Could the fact that they brought this thread to the attention of their puppy families and only a handful came forward here have something to do with it. Maybe not.
> Have they realized that when they "google" their kennel this thread is listed in the results very close to the top and they are afraid of the damage it might cause them. Maybe not.


Only I know the reason for re-opening the thread?
I requested that it be re-opened because when I got back to it after taking a Thanksgiving Break, it was closed, giving me no way to answer any questions. This isn't obvious?
Honestly, if a puppy owner had something negative to say they would have (and may still). I'm not here because I'm trying to impress anyone. I am here upholding my reputation and making sure only the truth is being said here. I realized back in 2008 that if you google "Cynazar" this thread comes up.


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## Cynazar Goldens

Pointgold said:


> :appl:to everything that Jill has said, and particularly this:
> "For me, 20-30 untitled kennel dogs producing and producing more and more puppies sold for more than the top performance/show goldens? Buyer beware; shame on the breeder."
> 
> Extraordinary grace is nice, but there is _far_ more to being a truly responsible breeder.


Maybe you can explain for what I should have shame placed upon me?
That comment in particular that Jill said is amazing to me. When did a select few females living in excellent conditions, inside our home, being selectively bred, turn into 20 - 30 kennel dogs popping out hundreds of litters? When?
If that were the case, then that is certainly something to be ashamed of. HOWEVER, that statement could not be further from the truth.
How has everything I said thus far been so greatly misconstrewed?


----------



## Cynazar Goldens

Jackson'sMom said:


> I generally don't get involved in the puppy breeding threads, but Jill's response is spot-on. Well said. And for those who don't know me, I get all my dogs from rescues, and only adult dogs, so I have no personal axe to grind either way with regard to this breeder. I do know that if I were to be in the market for a puppy, this is not a breeder I would consider.


What Jill wrote does not describe our breeding program AT ALL. I cannot believe that someone can make false accusations about our program, our dogs, and our ethics and everyone applauds them for it. I am very disturbed that this is what Jill thinks of us. The fact that what she accused me of is so far off base, that it is scares me to think of what else will be said and assumed as "fact" next. Jill has clearly never been to our home, met our dogs, or met me either. I am painted as such an irresponsible, unethical, and immoral person that I honestly can't believe that she is talking about me. Anyone reading what I have wrote so far can see as plain as the nose on their face that we do NOT keep -and never kept at any point in time- our dogs in a kennel, we do NOT have -and never had at any point in time- 30+ breeding dogs turning out dogs, and we are NOT breeding -and never bred at any point in time- for greed and sheer profit.


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## joysgirls

This discourse between the 2 of you is really disturbing in so many ways. I am a past owner and a golden lover. We were looking for a puppy and don't even want to pursue this Breeder search anymore now because of this. Who can you trust or believe ???and for what reason would someone deliberately distort facts about another person. This is very sad !


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## tippykayak

Cynazar Goldens said:


> We pay particularly close attention to structure in our dogs.
> As you know, temperament is a must as well.
> We don't do field work with our dogs, but we do breed for dogs that are calm, happy, intelligent, gentle, listen intently, and are always willing to please. Personally, I prefer Goldens without that "birdy" instinct. Snowangel (one of our girls that is available) is VERY birdy - to the point where when I'm holding a chicken, NOTHING will break her concentration. The other day she realized that there is a stuffed goose hanging in our house- she stared at that thing for an hour before losing interest. She is an excellent dog, but I can't bring myself to trust her around my pet chickens :/.


My point is that a single family cannot be the sole arbiters of good structure, not when you're producing dogs. You have to have the dogs out there, in competition, proving that structure. Having a good idea can make you a great breeder, but without having the dogs consistently evaluated in the public arena, either for the conformation, ability, or both, you cannot be sure you're effectively breeding for those qualities.

And I worry when you say you don't like your GRs birdy...they're bird retrieving dogs, so breeding away from that is a real problem for me.


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## Cynazar Goldens

Bender said:


> I don't think saying that HVB, puppy mills and less than ethical breeding practices are 'required' to supply everyone wiht their own golden. Most of the breeders I know DON'T breed unless they have enough good homes waiting. They will skip doing a litter if they don't have the homes, and I'm sure would breed that litter if there were the good homes. Many of the applicants they get are turned away as well, because of things like 'our last golden got run over on the highway, need a smarter one this time' or the people not having the time to come meet in person without kids to chat about goldens, and so on. My guess is those people go to the 'not so good' choices to get a puppy where things won't be asked.
> 
> As to the breeder on this thread, nobody else has mentioned it, but I think it's pretty unfair to insist that a dog who doesn't pass clearances have to be returned and a replacement puppy offered. I know personally I wouldn't say a thing if my dog failed a clearance if it meant having to give the dog up - and risk another pup/dog with the same issue. To me that's very unethical as a breeder knowing it's pretty likely they won't give up their pet. Just saying...
> 
> Lana


I quite clearly stated and explained this in a previous post. I would NEVER expect a family to give up their beloved Golden for a new one, under any circumstance. The replacement guarantee is for a breeder or organization that is interested in a breeding male or female, not for a pet home.


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## tippykayak

Cynazar Goldens said:


> The only dog I have listed at $2,600 is Pogo, and he is the most expensive dog I have listed. This is because he is a stunningly gorgeous and correct example of the Golden Retriever. I understand that there are many breeders that abhore the cream and white colors, but there are others that specifically breed for that color. Please note- achieving the lighter coat color is one of the least important things to us in our breeding program. We breed for the quality of the dog, not the color it is. Our European Goldens are out of champion European dogs. Will you tell the breeders in Europe that produce white champions that they are not breeding true Goldens? That they are harming the breed by breeding white? The Golden Retriever came from Europe - who are we to tell them that the true Goldens aren't true Goldens?


The KC (English) standard specifically disallows white dogs. If you are breeding to that standard, more power to you, but you wouldn't be producing white dogs if you were. If people in Europe are breeding white dogs, that's their business, but that's not a Golden Retriever that conforms to the breed standard of either England or the US.


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## Ljilly28

> hvgoldens4 said:
> 
> 
> 
> l have taken the time to read this entire thread and I am very dismayed. I have also taken the time to view the breeders website and it is a concern to me to see the number of puppies/young adults/adult dogs FOR SALE.
> 
> First, I am a breeder and have been for 15 plus years. I have also been competing with our dogs in some venue during all that time. Why is is important that you have Champions/titles behind your pet golden retriever? Very simply, because you want a golden retriever. .. If no one ever followed the breed standard or proved that their dog adhered to the standard, we eventually fall away from the standard and a golden retriever is simply a generic dog. . . There are also height and weight desciptions in the standard so there go those breeders who are breeding for the 100 lb golden. This was the reason that dog shows/specifically conformation dog shows were started. They were a showcase of breeding stock and that is still largely what it is today. There are also other titles as many have mentioned such as hunting and obedience titles. These titles show that the dog can still do the work that they were bred to do and obedience titles show that the dog has the biddability to work as a team with the handler.
> 
> 
> I am not saying it is easy to devote the amount of time needed to do well at shows. It is a choice I make. I am a mom to 3 children, the youngest who is only 5 years old. We adopted her 3 years ago and obviously, it meant changing some things with the dogs but I did not drop out of showing nor do I use her or my 19 year old son who plays baseball on the college level as an excuse not to do the things I should be doing with my dogs to prove they are good representatives of the breed.
> 
> I live in PA. I charge $1200 for my puppies. I show my dogs in conformation and many owners also do other venues with their dogs. There is no reason that someone who is charging $2000 for a puppy doesn't have the money to spend getting titles on their dogs.
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a wonderful breeder in your state who took lots of time to write here- maybe a great mentor?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What Jill wrote does not describe our breeding program AT ALL. I cannot believe that someone can make false accusations about our program, our dogs, and our ethics and everyone applauds them for it. I am very disturbed that this is what Jill thinks of us.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I was extremely careful to raise questions and talk about myself, rather than point the finger at you except in trying to count the factual number of dogs. Anyone advertising "white goldens" is greeted with skeptism by me, not just you personally. Anyone selling multiple-age pups on a website is going to get some scrutiny. My point was to try and stop the fighting by asking everyone in the GRF community what they think the differences are between a responsible breeder and a puppymill. I have no problem making an "I" statement that keeping 18 dogs plus puppies is never going to be for me. I hope you do keep all 18 dogs in the house plus the pups and all five of you spend all day training them, petting them, playing with them. I'd be interested to hear what you think is gray area in breeding, what you think is responsible, and what you think is a high volume.
Click to expand...


----------



## Pointgold

Cynazar Goldens said:


> Maybe you can explain for what I should have shame placed upon me?
> That comment in particular that Jill said is amazing to me. When did a select few females living in excellent conditions, inside our home, being selectively bred, turn into 20 - 30 kennel dogs popping out hundreds of litters? When?
> If that were the case, then that is certainly something to be ashamed of. HOWEVER, that statement could not be further from the truth.
> How has everything I said thus far been so greatly misconstrewed?


 
18 dogs living in a house might be considered hoarding in some circles. Selling puppies for far more than those out of titled sires and dams (and I don't mean in Hungary or Romania or Poland - I mean after having been adjudicated here in the US, against peers breeding to the standard and with goals to maintain the characteristics of that standard), with a long and solid history of clearances - is difficult, at best, to justify. 
You wrote that "_a healthy female can be bred up until age 9 in an ethical manner. We CHOOSE to retire our females at the young age of 5. Most breeders think that that is throwing a perfectly good breeding female away. If anything, the fact that we retire our girls so early shows that we are not in it for the profit, but for the well-being of the dog_." 
Really? Who are those breeders? Having 12 females makes it pretty easy to retire one and move on to the next. MOST breeders do NOT have 12, or even 10 or 8 females that they are breeding, and most do not breed up until the age of 9. Nor do most, or many, (other than those who "foster" out their intact bitches and simply USE them for pumping out puppies) sell them off when they DO retire them - they are precious, well loved girls that live their lives out with those breeders, who they gave so much to.


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## Cynazar Goldens

Selli-Belle said:


> Oh Ljilly post it. I find your posts interesting and informative.
> 
> I too have a problem with the need to return the dog to get the guarantee. Cynazar says that is because the people who want a full registration are only interested in breeding the dog and would need to replace the dog if it does not get all their clearances with another breeding dog. Most dog people, including breeders, form a strong bond with their dogs that is not affected by whether the dog passes its clearances. The dogs are their pets, not their business and if their dogs do not pass their clearances, the dog is altered and remain their pets. The big difference is looking at breeding as a hobby or a business!


I understand what you are saying, but this is my school of thought- If a breeder (no matter how responsible you may believe them to be) makes the investment to buy a breeding dog, and that dog does not pass for any reason, I am afraid they may turn around and say "that's alright- we can still breed this dog. I payed money for it!" By offering another breeding dog of equal value to replace the dog with, there is no temptation to breed the dog with the problem. If one of our dogs doesn't pass, we do not want that dog to ever be bred. The only real way to be sure of that is to have it returned to us.


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## joysgirls

hEllo!! Can anyone of you breeders answer MY question??


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## Cynazar Goldens

Megora said:


> I don't think there is anything wrong with that kind of thinking... except a pet-bred golden should not cost the same as a golden who has a loaded pedigree. That's why people are saying that those goldens are overpriced. I would not fall in love with a breeder simply because they have beautiful dogs and are in the same state as you.
> 
> The other thing is that there is no such thing as a guaranteed healthy golden. _Even with clearances._ That's why you want to go with a breeder who is reasonable and will work with you if something happens. Or at least support your decisions concerning the dog. <- That was a plus with my golden who had severe elbow dysplasia. We never asked for the money back, but could have since it was part of the contract. The breeder was there to help us and was knowledgable enough to help us. Either that or she was able to get us in touch with specialists who did help us.


Our Goldens are produced from Champions- just look at their pedigrees.
And being there to support someone 100% if their puppy has a problem is the ethical thing to do, you are dead on with that.
I never wrote anywhere that our dogs' health is 'guaranteed'- that is impossible to say. The guarantee I am trying to explain is that a breeding dog, bought under a full reg, will be replaced if it does not pass.


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## Pointgold

Cynazar Goldens said:


> I understand what you are saying, but this is my school of thought- If a breeder (no matter how responsible you may believe them to be) makes the investment to buy a breeding dog, and that dog does not pass for any reason, I am afraid they may turn around and say "that's alright- we can still breed this dog. I payed money for it!" By offering another breeding dog of equal value to replace the dog with, there is no temptation to breed the dog with the problem. If one of our dogs doesn't pass, we do not want that dog to ever be bred. The only real way to be sure of that is to have it returned to us.


Then you should do a better job of screening your buyers. If you were selling "breeding dogs" to reputable, responsible breeders they would not ever be "tempted" to breed a dog that has not cleared. "Investments", "equal value", "I payed money for it" are not how we evaluate our dogs and our breeding programs. When we sell a puppy that has not cleared, we replace it. We don't require it come back and then re-sell it.


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## Pointgold

Cynazar Goldens said:


> Our Goldens are produced from Champions- just look at their pedigrees.
> And being there to support someone 100% if their puppy has a problem is the ethical thing to do, you are dead on with that.
> I never wrote anywhere that our dogs' health is 'guaranteed'- that is impossible to say. The guarantee I am trying to explain is that a breeding dog, bought under a full reg, will be replaced if it does not pass.


 

From your site:
"GUARANTEED TO PASS ALL CLEARANCES WHEN SOLD UNDER FULL REGISTRATION."

Full registration costs $1000 more, BTW.


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## Cynazar Goldens

Jo Ellen said:


> Thank you, Megora. I know I'm pushing the envelope here.
> 
> You're right, logically they shouldn't be as expensive as champion lines. But if I had to spend say $500 more to get a healthy goden retriever in my state, as opposed to traveling out of state to save $500 ... would I really be saving money in the end? Probably not. And spending the extra now, even if it might be somewhat over the top, could save me even more in the long run.
> 
> I would consider getting a golden retriever puppy from Cynazar. I would have to visit her first, of course, to see first hand. Unfortunately, I don't think she would sell me a puppy -- I don't have a fence :


LOL! Jo, you are welcome on our property any time, I would love for you to meet us and our dogs in person.
Here I am, I said that I would only answer a few posts, (back at 2:30 AM) and it is now 7:30 AM :[
I lost my sleepiness after reading some of the posts here.. :/


----------



## Cynazar Goldens

Megora said:


> The impression I got from talking with people and then reading up on the CCA (as above) is that it's not quite the same thing as a conformation title. Because your dog isn't competing against others, then there's more likelihood of dogs with minor but noticable faults getting their CCA. And I don't think it's a bright idea advising people to breed their dogs based on that. Even though I guess it's better than nothing.
> 
> 
> 
> Have you actually looked at other breeders in Pennsylvania and closely surrounding states? Have you spoken to them? Are you that certain that they would be charging even $2000 for a pet quality golden? And keep in mind, you do not save money by going with a short-cut breeder. If your dog is unhealthy or has behavioral problems, then it will most definitely cost you more in the long run. Especially if the breeder's only answer to congenital defects is doing the puppy-shuffle.


Puppy shuffle? Only answer? Apperently you haven't read all of my posts. We do not expect a family to give up their dog for a "new and better" one. Working with those who buy a puppy that later come up with a problem is very important to us. If the dog has a problem, let's fix it together.


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## tippykayak

Cynazar Goldens said:


> Maybe you can explain for what I should have shame placed upon me?
> That comment in particular that Jill said is amazing to me. When did a select few females living in excellent conditions, inside our home, being selectively bred, turn into 20 - 30 kennel dogs popping out hundreds of litters? When?
> If that were the case, then that is certainly something to be ashamed of. HOWEVER, that statement could not be further from the truth.
> How has everything I said thus far been so greatly misconstrewed?


I don't agree with the comments that insult you, but I don't see anywhere Jill did that. It looks like she did some simple math to come up with 20+. You have 12 breeding females (some too young to breed yet), 12 dogs over 8 weeks listed for sale on your site, 4 (not sure if that number is right) studs, and a litter on the way. That's 24 dogs without counting the litter. Earlier in the thread, you said there were only 7 for sale, so maybe that's 19 dogs and you just haven't updated the site? Or is there overlap between the 12 girls you talk about and the dogs for sale? At one point you mention 18, but is that every single dog on the property or just the dogs in the breeding program?

And given that the dogs have to be separated (the 12 girls can't be with the 4 boys, and the 4 boys can't be together), you must have some kind of enclosure system, whether you call it a kennel or not.

A big part of your getting misunderstood is the fact that what your site says and what you posted in the thread don't add up to the same number of dogs, and you haven't been super clear about how many actual dogs are on the property beyond talking about the 12 girls and the 7 dogs for sale.

I don't think there's an official litters-per-year number that makes somebody an HVB. You do have a lot of dogs and a lot of litters relative to the hobby breeders I've gotten my dogs from, and I know how much work my family of two people puts into the two GRs we have in order to have happy, well-exercised, well-trained dogs. I also know the work my breeders put into socializing and pre-training teeny pups. It's hard for me to imagine a family of four finding time to give to 18 dogs and a litter of puppies, even if it's a full time job for all four of them.

One litter itself is a full time job. Even eight puppies (and litters can be WAY bigger) are hard to give individualized attention to. When I visited Comet's breeder in her home to take a look at the litter, she was giving each 6-week puppy a massive amount of individual time each day as she evaluated their temperaments and exposed them to sights and sounds. She was even working with bird wings and a pigeon at that age to bring out their retrieving instincts! Fourteen puppies meant that she was working with them from dawn til dusk from the moment they were old enough to interact with to the full eight weeks she held them for (and she wouldn't let them go a minute earlier).

And then I think of 18 dogs in a breeding program, a bunch for sale, three litters on the ground, and one family doing it all, and I just don't see how it can be done really well. I'm sure the dogs aren't abused, totally unsocialized, dirty, or ignored, but are they really getting the ideal early education for a life as beloved family pets? Do you need a breeding program that large? Perhaps it's time to scale back and focus on developing dogs who are exemplars of the standard, proven in competition venue.

You are clearly SO much better than many of the breeders who pop up on the forum to defend themselves when criticism is leveled, but I think at least _some_ of the criticism is fair and worth listening to.


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## tippykayak

joysgirls said:


> This discourse between the 2 of you is really disturbing in so many ways. I am a past owner and a golden lover. We were looking for a puppy and don't even want to pursue this Breeder search anymore now because of this. Who can you trust or believe ???and for what reason would someone deliberately distort facts about another person. This is very sad !


If you read around the forum a bit, you will see that LJilly28 has a long track record of friendly, supportive discussions with all kinds of folks. I see no distortions in what she posted. Since the breeder never gave a hard number when it comes to total dogs, it falls to us to add up what she has said and what her website says.


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## LibertyME

joysgirls said:


> hEllo!! Can anyone of you breeders answer MY question??


This thread is *filled* with things to look for......as is the sticky Puppy buyers checklist

Membership in GRCA and in local clubs..
Published, public, current, health clearances...
Titles - Conformation, Obedience, Hunt, Agility 
Breeding "Golden" Retrievers - not white, cream, creme, black

Get a copy of the Golden Retriever Blue Book...so you will know and understand the standard. It is a whopping $12 and supports the breed club.

Honestly....when you look at each breeder and answer each of the questions....
The good breeders will become obvious...and the below average breeders will too.


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## tippykayak

LibertyME said:


> This thread is *filled* with things to look for......as is the sticky Puppy buyers checklist
> 
> Membership in GRCA and in local clubs..
> Published, public, current, health clearances...
> Titles - Conformation, Obedience, Hunt, Agility
> Breeding "Golden" Retrievers - not white, cream, creme, black
> 
> Get a copy of the Golden Retriever Blue Book...so you will know and understand the standard. It is a whopping $12 and supports the breed club.
> 
> Honestly....when you look at each breeder and answer each of the questions....
> The good breeders will become obvious...and the below average breeders will too.


And you can go here: The GRCA's guide to choosing a breeder

Pretty much every single criticism that has been leveled in this thread is taken directly from the GRCA's materials on breeder ethics and the qualities of an ideal breeder.


----------



## Megora

Cynazar Goldens said:


> Our Goldens are produced from Champions- just look at their pedigrees.
> And being there to support someone 100% if their puppy has a problem is the ethical thing to do, you are dead on with that.
> I never wrote anywhere that our dogs' health is 'guaranteed'- that is impossible to say. The guarantee I am trying to explain is that a breeding dog, bought under a full reg, will be replaced if it does not pass.


My golden with the elbow dysplasia and shyness was produced from champions too. His parents were not just breeding dogs, they were actually shown. Back then, he was only $800 (today, I think it would be closer to $1300). And that was full registration. If it weren't for his severe elbow dysplasia and behavioral issues, we could probably have gotten into conformation if we wanted. And his breeder would have helped us, I'm sure.

She showed all her dogs. She still does. But even with five or six females and one male, she did not have the time to train her goldens because she was showing them so much. On one hand, that is proof that even the small hobby show breeders might make some mistakes as far as the training and care of their dogs. 

On the other hand, that is also proof that with five or six dogs there could be problems getting all of the attention and training work in. That's why people are a little uncomfortable about going with a breeder who has close to 20 dogs. 

I do know breeders who have had to make the hard decision to train and work with their females for 3 years and then place them in owner homes after 1 or 2 litters from them. <- This is inexplicable to dog owners who bond with our animals even after 2 weeks. Which is furthermore why that guarantee is not worth the paper it's written on, unless you are selling dogs to other breeders who would have no interest in keeping a faulty breeding animal.


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## Cynazar Goldens

Pointgold said:


> ....
> Can you share the service dog organizations that you refer to?
> ....


There are Cynazar Goldens in;
Paws With A Cause
Can Do Canines
Assistance Dogs of America, Inc.


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## tippykayak

Cynazar Goldens said:


> I understand that there are many breeders that abhore the cream and white colors, but there are others that specifically breed for that color.


I don't know of anybody who has such strong feelings about color itself. The strong feelings are about the intentional breeding of Golden Retrievers who are outside the Golden Retriever breed standards (both American and British) and then the subsequent marketing of those dogs as somehow special. That's why you're also hearing people mention improperly sized dogs and dogs with other color faults. Those are marked by _other_ breeders as "rare" or otherwise worth more money. Nobody is saying you have those other conformational faults in your dogs, but it's a fair argument to make in order to point out the problems with breeding dogs outside the standard and charging extra money for them.


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## AmbikaGR

Cynazar Goldens said:


> I quite clearly stated and explained this in a previous post. I would NEVER expect a family to give up their beloved Golden for a new one, under any circumstance. The replacement guarantee is for a breeder or organization that is interested in a breeding male or female, not for a pet home.



You are saying that you sell on full registration to folks who are interested in breeding and thus the bitch is not a beloved family member? Thus it is okay to require the return to get a replacement?


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## joysgirls

And you can go here: The GRCA's guide to choosing a breeder

Pretty much every single criticism that has been leveled in this thread is taken directly from the GRCA's materials on breeder ethics and the qualities of an ideal breeder.

I have both and have read both!!!- I KNOW what I am looking for. I am disturbed by the bickering tone between breeders here and feel that it is not very helpful to us "lay persons " when you can't agree to disagree and move on. Good Grief!! Sorry -You are NOT being helpful to Me


----------



## AmbikaGR

joysgirls said:


> I have both and have read both!!!- I KNOW what I am looking for. I am disturbed by the bickering tone between breeders here and feel that it is not very helpful to us "lay persons " when you can't agree to disagree and move on. Good Grief!! Sorry -You are NOT being helpful to Me



Well from where I sit I am GLAD that there are folks such as these that have such a passion and love for the breed to not just "agree to disagree" over these issues. Many feel it is critical to the future of the breed and to educate many of the "lay persons" who might stumble upon this thread. And I honestly do NOT think this is an exaggeration at all.


----------



## tippykayak

joysgirls said:


> And you can go here: The GRCA's guide to choosing a breeder
> 
> Pretty much every single criticism that has been leveled in this thread is taken directly from the GRCA's materials on breeder ethics and the qualities of an ideal breeder.
> 
> I have both and have read both!!!- I KNOW what I am looking for. I am disturbed by the bickering tone between breeders here and feel that it is not very helpful to us "lay persons " when you can't agree to disagree and move on. Good Grief!! Sorry -You are NOT being helpful to Me


I'm not a breeder, just as an FYI, and if we don't air these issues and ask these questions of breeders, how will you know who really holds himself or herself to the GRCA's Code of Ethics and other best practices?


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## mybuddy

Cynazar Goldens said:


> *Thank you so much, that means a lot to me!*
> Your post is the nicest one I've seen here.
> Buddy sounds like a female we used to have a few years back named "Arwen". She would eat absolutely anything, and also loved to de-squeak squeaky toys. Talk about driving me nuts!! LOL
> I can see from his picture that Buddy is very handsome!


 
YIKES..you should get some sleep. Good to see you again, guess you are busy getting ready for the holidays etc...are you? Thanks...Buddy is a handsome boy I must say. I am pretty proud of him...not so much with the eating though. I worry about his gobbling outside. Unfortunately in Taiwan, people like to just throw food on the ground and that is heaven for Buddy. It can be dangerous so I have to be on him ALL the time! Anywhooooo....such is life. He is sucking on a kong now and looks like the little girl on the Simpsons 

Have a good night ( or day ) and hug the pups for us!

:wavey:


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## HiTideGoldens

Cynazar Goldens said:


> Our Goldens are produced from Champions- just look at their pedigrees.


I think this statement deserves some clarification. None of your dogs are champions. The fact that some of your dogs have champions back in their pedigrees does not mean that the puppies you sell are "produced from champions." Your dogs are NOT champions in any competitive venue, including conformation. For that matter, I don't see any titles on the parents of Diamond, Beauty, Condi, Lotty or Cynda. Skimo appears to have parents titled in the Slovak kennel club, and Blizzard's father is titled in Romania. But I can't find the K9data links to the dogs for sale, so there may be others without titled parents. You need to be careful about making statements like this when it's very easily verified and can be interpreted to be a false statement. This is what was pointed out to you about the LA Woman statement on your website, which I noticed has been altered now.

But the thing that strikes me as interesting, is that the site mentions how many champions are in the 5 generation pedigree on some of these dogs. (Which means really nothing if they're far back in the pedigree, btw.) You're showing that you KNOW that having titles on dogs you breed is important, but then doing nothing to attain those titles on YOUR dogs. It's hypocritical - at a minimum - to claim it's not necessary to obtain titles but then brag about the champions in a pedigree to entice puppy buyers. 

I hope that after reading everything in this thread you've taken some of this to heart and that you know better now. So DO better. As Jill suggested, maybe its time you scale back your breeding operation and start competing with your dogs.


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## LibertyME

Sounds like a very cold business practice...
Like buying a refrigerator if you own a restaurant...
If it doesnt work, and you need it to run your business, ...return it for a new one.




AmbikaGR said:


> You are saying that you sell on full registration to folks who are interested in breeding and thus the bitch is not a beloved family member? Thus it is okay to require the return to get a replacement?


----------



## Pointgold

LibertyME said:


> Sounds like a very cold business practice...
> Like buying a refrigerator if you own a restaurant...
> If it doesnt work, and you need it to run your business, ...return it for a new one.


 
And I assure you, not one that is practiced by me or my colleagues.

What do they do with dogs that are returned by those breeders who paid an extra $1000 to be guaranteed that clearances would pass.


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## hvgoldens4

joysgirls said:


> And you can go here: The GRCA's guide to choosing a breeder
> 
> Pretty much every single criticism that has been leveled in this thread is taken directly from the GRCA's materials on breeder ethics and the qualities of an ideal breeder.
> 
> I have both and have read both!!!- I KNOW what I am looking for. I am disturbed by the bickering tone between breeders here and feel that it is not very helpful to us "lay persons " when you can't agree to disagree and move on. Good Grief!! Sorry -You are NOT being helpful to Me


 
If you have both of these and understand what the GRCA is telling families who are looking for goldens to look for in a breeder, you would understand the issues that other breeders have with Cynazar. 

1. The GRCA Advises:


Belong to the Golden Retriever Club of America, a local Golden Retriever club, or an all-breed club. Ideally he/she should belong to all three; however, sometimes this is impossible. The reason for this requirement is that this sort of participation indicates depth of involvement. This breeder is exposed to other points of view, learns more about the breed and modern breeding practices, and is kept up to date on AKC rules and regulations.
 Taken directly from the Cynazar website on the About Us page:
When shopping for a puppy, ask the people you contact, "And how long have you been breeding dogs - particularly Goldens and what experience do you have?” You will be amazed what answers you get! Oh, and how many clubs you belong to does NOT make you a qualified or knowledgeable breeder - anyone can join a club.
****This statement is false. All local breed clubs and all breed clubs that I know of require the people applying to the club to meet certain requirements, attend a certain number of meetings and then be voted on by the membership before being allowed to join a dog club.

2. The GRCA advises: 
Be involved in showing his/her dogs in the breed ring, the obedience ring, in hunting tests/field trials, agility, tracking, or in a combination of any of these. The reason for this requirement is that it means that the breeder is not working in a vacuum. The breeder who does not participate has no idea how good his/her dogs really are, and is deprived of the opportunity to share information and ideas with others. Showing provides the competition which encourages breeders to produce better dogs. The breeder who competes wants to prove how good his/her dogs are and is putting his/her breeding program on the line. This breeder is not relying on just a pedigree to indicate quality. Even if you do not want a competition animal, you deserve a companion that is the end result of a carefully planned litter; a puppy which received the same care as a potential champion. The breeder who competes in organized activities is known by others and has a reputation to uphold. This breeder will be as careful and honest in selling you your pet puppy as in selling show stock.

Cynazar is not involved in any type of competition with their dogs, however, on their website and on this forum they have stated that their dogs are champion quality and have champion pedigrees as they sell them to "show" homes and will sell them on full registration for an extra $1000, which can be seen on their website. Jenne has also stated that she doesn't like the fact that goldens have any birdy instinct. This is an innate behavior in golden retrievers and it IS the job that golden retrievers were bred to do.

3. The GRCA says: Unequivocally, your choice should be from the ranks of the SERIOUS HOBBY BREEDER. It is an interesting fact that poor quality puppies from pet shops and backyard breeders are often sold for the same price and sometimes even more than those purchased from the experienced hobby breeder. 

I sell my puppies for $1200 on a limited registration/spay/neuter contract. This is around the same amount that most of my peers are also selling their puppies for. I live in the same state as Cynazar. Cynazar sells their puppies for $2000.

4. The GRCA advises: 

Be able to show you proof that both the sire and dam of the litter have had their hips X-rayed, and evaluated as normal by the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals (OFA) and/or PennHIP; have had their elbows X-rayed and evaluated as normal by the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals (OFA) or a board-certified veterinary radiologist: have had their hearts examined by a board-certified veterinary cardiologist; and have had their eyes examined by a board-certified veterinary ophthalmologist within the last 12-18 months. The breeder should also be willing to answer your questions about any other possible hereditary problems, including but not limited to seizures, hypothyroidism, and skin problems or allergies.
Cynazar Bailey Irish Cream- elbow clearance only
Cynazar Drop Dead Gorgeous- heart clearance
Cynazar Illustrious Illusion- hips CERF 2002 no elbows and no heart
offspring: Cynazar Grand Illusion- hip and elbow only
offspring: Cynazar Mr Big Time- only hips
Cynazar Smoke N Mirrahs- hip and elbow only and have no PI 
Cynazar Pocket Pooch Plush- hip and elbow only
Cynazar All Shook Up- hip and elbow only
Cynazar Chill Factor-only heart clearance listed

Cynazar Mr Big Time(only hips) was bred to Priscilla Mediguard
offspring: Cynazar Snowhite-hip and elbows only
Priscilla Mediguard was also bred to Mission Impossible Of Wolf Point-only hip and elbows
Cynazar kept two of these puppies but quite a few others were sold on full registration as many were bred and have incomplete clearance information on the OFA website.

This is just what I pulled up in less than 10 minutes of surfing the OFA website. I should also mention that none of the dogs listed have a CERF except the one that I showed back in 2002. That has been addressed in this thread and we were told that they will be sending those in. This is particularly important in this age when there is a form of PRA that affects goldens and also pigmentary uveitis. However, CERF bubble exam forms are only good for one year. So, if they are out dated, they will not be accepted. This information should be showing up on the OFA website shortly, if the information was sent in, as we were told.

I think these reasons above should show you why the breeders and other long time members and golden fanciers of the forum have issues with Cynazar. If you have any other questions, I would be most happy to answer them.

Jennifer Craig


----------



## GoldensGirl

hvgoldens4 said:


> I sell my puppies for $1200 on a limited registration/spay/neuter contract. This is around the same amount that most of my peers are also selling their puppies for. I live in the same state as Cynazar. Cynazar sells their puppies for $2000...
> 
> ...I think these reasons above should show you why the breeders and other long time members and golden fanciers of the forum have issues with Cynazar. If you have any other questions, I would be most happy to answer them.
> 
> Jennifer Craig


Jennifer, I learned a lot from your post (of which I included only a small portion). Thank you.

Differences in pricing may have something to do with location. The Washington Post just ran an analysis of costs in 7 different locations and found them to run as much as 72% higher across the board for the most expensive locations. 

I also believe there are philosophical differences about pricing. For nearly everything we buy, price is determined by what the market will bear. If enough people are willing to pay $2000 for a puppy, a breeder might be fiscally unwise to sell for less than that. Is there any other business in which sellers are expected to price something for less than buyers are willing to pay? In the Baltimore-D.C. area, there are well respected breeders (recommended by multiple members of the GRF) who price puppies in that range, as well as some puppy mills that do so. It seems to me that buyers have some responsibility to do their own research, establish their own priorities about the characteristics they want in a dog, and set their own financial limits. 

By the way, I am not a breeder (never have been, never will be) and I did buy a puppy in August of 2010 (NOT for $2000). I remain most grateful to the GRF for providing the guidance that helped me do the research before I found my little gal and that continues to help me take care of her.

Thanks again for explaining your concerns so clearly.


----------



## Selli-Belle

I LOVE Jennifer's response and I love the position taken by the breeder that Jill referenced and I know Pointgold has the same opinion. These people see breeding dogs as something that comes out of their love for dogs, not as businesses where they are trying to get as much as they can from their breedings. I hope that there are always breeders who care more about their dogs than money!


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## Chilton

Jenne, kudos to you coming here and engaging. I'm sure it feels like you're being piled on, but there is so much good stuff to be learned here from people who really know and love Goldens, if you can just separate the light from the heat.

I, like you, started working for the [non-dog-related] family business at an early age. When I began my career, I held my father up on a pedestal, viewing him as an unquestionable do-no-wrong expert in the field. I felt our business was "the best" because we made a good living, and had so many customers who sang my father's praises. It took a while for me to realize that Dad is a mere human, but once I attained that understanding, I became able to view the business with a more objective eye, and could see all the ways that our family business was behind the times. Armed with this knowledge, I did my part to educate the old man on the "modern" ways, and as a result, we now have a much healthier, more thriving business.

From where I'm sitting, it seems that it's your mom who perhaps could most stand to catch up with the times; and you, the product of her tutelage, will hopefully utilize all the outside influences and sources of knowledge available to you to develop a style of your own that is more modern.

Times change. Not too terribly long ago, it was acceptable in Western culture to trade humans as working stock. Today, the general consensus among responsible dog breeders is that we, as the "higher beings" have a responsibility to the dogs we breed to treat them as our faithful companions, not as livestock, as was the norm in the past. [To be clear, by "we", I mean humans. I am not myself a dog breeder.] As Golden fanciers, we have the ability to breed them smarter, healthier, and more fit to do the jobs for which they were originally intended. Unfortunately, the opportunity for shortcutting and greed still exists. It is up to us to shake off the old ways and take what we know to be the high road.

It has to be hard to hear that so many disapprove of your/your mom's breeding practices. In fact, it probably feels like a personal slap in the face. It isn't. Most of those here on this board who breed dogs do it for the love of the dogs, and when some see a "peer" who is, in their view, shortcutting or breeding in what they consider to be an irresponsible or unethical manner, they will not sleep until they influence some form of change. The intent is not to quash "the competition", but to do as they always do: maintain/advance the integrity of the breed for which they care so much.

You obviously love the dogs that you raise, and want the best for them. So, may I suggest you take some time to consider what really is "best". 

As a matter of best-practice, modern, "responsible" breeders get all four of the common clearances [hips, eyes, heart, elbows] performed on their breeding Goldens, and register those clearances with their respective databases. Sure, it cuts into the profits, but they do this because it maintains/advances the health of the breed, and makes the data available to other breeders so they can do the same. Most of them show their dogs in competition, as striving to conform to a standard and being judged objectively also maintains/advances the health/integrity of the breed. They do not sell dogs like Widgets on a website [regardless of how thoroughly they screen prospective owners], because, honestly, it is demeaning to the dogs. To most of us, our dogs are "adopted" as family members, not purchased like cattle.

They Cynazar way is, at least at the surface, very outdated. It's not that you're bad people, but rather that you operate in a bubble and don't seem to have enough awareness of the "modern ways" and resources available to you. It is possible for you to change this, advance the breed and the Cynazar name, and even continue to make a buck or two along the way. But first, you have to recognize that change and progress are necessary.

I hope you take all the critiques you've received to heart. They were all given in good faith, even if it doesn't feel that way right now. Hopefully, one day when you have a few more years of experience behind you, you, in turn will take the time to educate or mentor somebody else who has their heart in the right place, as I believe you do.

My best wishes to you and your dogs.


----------



## pegburns

I haven't been on this site since it closed but it popped up on my e-mail....I read all the posts since it re-opened and once again am sad and discouraged at the tone of this thread.....if there are deficiencies in the Cynazar website or breeding practices, it would make sense to offer advice and comments in a friendly, helpful manner.....that's not what I'm reading here....I give Jenne SO much credit for coming back time after time to answer questions!!


----------



## Rhapsody in Gold

I agree. Quite honestly, I don’t see passion in many of these posts. I see know-it-alls and people who have a need to impress others. I think a novice would be hard pressed to receive help from anyone with real knowledge here because of the tone of these posts. It is inexcusable.


----------



## HiTideGoldens

Marty's Mom said:


> I agree. Quite honestly, I don’t see passion in many of these posts. I see know-it-alls and people who have a need to impress others. I think a novice would be hard pressed to receive help from anyone with real knowledge here because of the tone of these posts. It is inexcusable.



I don't think that this post is any friendlier than the ones you're passing judgment on. And, I completely disagree that anything is motivated by the need to "impress" anyone rather than passion for the breed. It's the internet, who are we impressing?


----------



## Rhapsody in Gold

No, I have stated my opinion - it is based on my interpretation of the posts here - my intuition.


----------



## Pointgold

The newest posts give the impression that someone simply wants to see morecontroversy. They aren't helpful in the least, unless it goes along with any publicity is better than no publicity... keeping Cynazar's name right out there...
As for there being no passion - nothing could be further from the truth. The passion just happens to be for something other than money.


----------



## Megora

goldenjackpuppy said:


> I don't think that this post is any friendlier than the ones you're passing judgment on. And, I completely disagree that anything is motivated by the need to "impress" anyone rather than passion for the breed. It's the internet, who are we impressing?


I agree... sorta. 

And I don't know if everyone is passing judgement. More than not, people are standing up for what they feel is right when it comes to the breed we love. 

Because this is the internet, I think you have more people chipping in for or against, because this is a public forum and this is the breeder's reputation at stake. And it's also a chance to educate people as far as what they should be looking for when they purchase a puppy. A chance to keep people from getting scammed, whether that's what this breeder is doing or not.


----------



## Jo Ellen

I have found Jenne to be quite receptive to the suggestions posted here, I give her so much credit for that. It's not often we see this much class coming from someone so young.

I wish her well.


----------



## AmbikaGR

Pointgold said:


> The newest posts give the impression that someone simply wants to see morecontroversy. They aren't helpful in the least, unless it goes along with any publicity is better than no publicity... keeping Cynazar's name right out there...
> As for there being no passion - nothing could be further from the truth. The passion just happens to be for something other than money.



I agree 100%.

As for Jenne being wonderful, receptive to ideas and changing the way Cynzar does things only time will tell. Till then and with the way their website reads my opinion is still the same, I would not consider nor recommend getting a pup or older dog from there. And that is just my opinion based on posts here and their website.


----------



## Pointgold

AmbikaGR said:


> I agree 100%.
> 
> As for Jenne being wonderful, receptive to ideas and changing the way Cynzar does things only time will tell. Till then and with the way their website reads my opinion is still the same, I would not consider nor recommend getting a pup or older dog from there. And that is just my opinion based on posts here and their website.


 
I agree 100% here, as well. I shudder to think of what sort of "breeding program" a dog advertised like this would be sold to. (I wasn't aware that the OFA was used in European England for there to be amazing OFA ratings packed behind him.)

*"Harvey"*
**Born in Janurary of '09**​

*This petite 100% European English male is packing amazing OFA ratings behind him. With both parents being OFA Excellent, he will surely produce better hips in your breeding program. With a pure white coat and a calm temperament, he'll pass on more than just nice hips to his offspring. Has been X-Rayed and looks like he will get a GOOD to EXCELLENT at 2 years.*​

* Male*​

*Energy Level:*
*4 On The Calm Side​*​








​Given that his sire is Skimo (Eskimo Pie Evidog)and from Slovakia, and none of the dogs in his pedigree have OFA clearances, this is not exactly true information, is it... His mother, BTW, Blizzard De Parmen Auriu, from Romania, has had at least 4 litters, her first being before the age of two.


Yes. We will wait and see - only time will tell.​


​


----------



## Shalva

Pointgold said:


> I agree 100% here, as well. I shudder to think of what sort of "breeding program" a dog advertised like this would be sold to. (I wasn't aware that the OFA was used in European England for there to be amazing OFA ratings packed behind him.)
> 
> *"Harvey"*
> **Born in Janurary of '09**​
> 
> *This petite 100% European English male is packing amazing OFA ratings behind him. With both parents being OFA Excellent, he will surely produce better hips in your breeding program. With a pure white coat and a calm temperament, he'll pass on more than just nice hips to his offspring. Has been X-Rayed and looks like he will get a GOOD to EXCELLENT at 2 years.*​
> 
> * Male*​
> 
> *Energy Level:*
> *4 On The Calm Side​*​
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ​Given that his sire is Skimo (Eskimo Pie Evidog)and from Slovakia, and none of the dogs in his pedigree have OFA clearances, this is not exactly true information, is it... His mother, BTW, Blizzard De Parmen Auriu, from Romania, has had at least 4 litters, her first being before the age of two.
> 
> 
> Yes. We will wait and see - only time will tell.​
> 
> 
> ​



OK I have stayed out of this thread but this advertisement just infuriates me... and is what causes all breeders of english/european type dogs to be painted with the same brush. There is nothing honest about this... not the statement regarding the dogs background and hip clearances, not the color of the dog (he is anything but white even if white were an actual color for goldens he is likely to be a light gold, shoot he may not even be cream) the guarantee about what he is likely to produce in hip scores.... nothing is honest here absolutely nothing. 

There ARE reputable breeders of english/european type dogs... yet as soon as folks see our dogs they assume they come from places such as this. 

so there 
thats all I have to say....


----------



## tippykayak

OFA report on Blizzard De Parmen Auriu. Includes ratings on offspring, full siblings, and half siblings. There are 3 excellent and 8 good hip clearances in that group, though that report doesn't show dogs who weren't cleared.

OFA report on Eskimo Pie Evidog. No hip or elbow ratings available on any offspring, full siblings, or half siblings.


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## Pointgold

Shalva said:


> OK I have stayed out of this thread but this advertisement just infuriates me... and is what causes all breeders of english/european type dogs to be painted with the same brush. There is nothing honest about this... not the statement regarding the dogs background and hip clearances, not the color of the dog (he is anything but white even if white were an actual color for goldens he is likely to be a light gold, shoot he may not even be cream) the guarantee about what he is likely to produce in hip scores.... nothing is honest here absolutely nothing.
> 
> There ARE reputable breeders of english/european type dogs... yet as soon as folks see our dogs they assume they come from places such as this.
> 
> so there
> thats all I have to say....


And I agree with YOU _200%. _
It is extremely frustrating for truly reputable, responsible breeders - no matter the style - those of us with strictly American bloodlines who read the drivel about how "English Cremes" are healthier, better, calmer, etc, and those who do use English (as in from _ENGLAND_) bloodlines for all the right reasons and have to read the drivel about how "rare" these "white" dogs are and how much healthier, better, calmer, etc these "100% English" dogs (from Romania, Slovakia, Poland, Hungary), etc are, and seeing photos of dogs of a quality that they most assuredly would not use in their breeding programs.

BUYER BEWARE. This is absolutely FALSE ADVERTISING.


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## Pointgold

Regarding a "petite" male, "pure white", with a "calm temperament" - these characteristics must have inadvertantly been left out of the UK standard for the Golden Retriever (we'll ignore that little technicality of a few white hairs on chest only, permissible.)

*General Appearance*
Symmetrical, balanced, active, powerful, level mover; sound with kindly expression.
*Characteristics*
Biddable, intelligent and possessing natural working ability.
*Temperament*
Kindly, friendly and confident.
*Head and Skull*
Balanced and well chiselled, skull broad without coarseness; well set on neck, muzzle powerful, wide and deep. Length of foreface approximately equals length from well defined stop to occiput. Nose preferably black.
*Eyes*
Dark brown, set well apart, dark rims.
*Ears*
Moderate size, set on approximate level with eyes.
*Mouth*
Jaws strong, with a perfect, regular and complete scissor bite, i.e. upper teeth closely overlapping lower teeth and set square to the jaws.
*Neck*
Good length, clean and muscular.
*Forequarters*
Forelegs straight with good bone, shoulders well laid back, long in blade with upper arm of equal length placing legs well under body. Elbows close fitting.
*Body*
Balanced, short-coupled, deep through heart. Ribs deep, well sprung. Level topline.
*Hindquarters*
Loin and legs strong and muscular, good second thighs, well bent stifles. Hocks well let down, straight when viewed from rear, neither turning in nor out. Cow-hocks highly undesirable.
*Feet*
Round and cat-like.
*Tail*
Set on and carried level with back, reaching to hocks, without curl at tip.
*Gait/Movement*
Powerful with good drive. Straight and true in front and rear. Stride long and free with no sign of hackney action in front.
*Coat*
Flat or wavy with good feathering, dense water-resisting undercoat.
*Colour*
Any shade of gold or cream, neither red nor mahogany. A few white hairs on chest only, permissible.
*Size*
Height at withers: dogs: 56-61 cms (22-24 ins); bitches: 51-56 cms (20-22 ins).
*Faults*
Any departure from the foregoing points should be considered a fault and the seriousness with which the fault should be regarded should be in exact proportion to its degree and its effect upon the health and welfare of the dog, and on the dog’s ability to perform its traditional work.
*Note*
Male animals should have two apparently normal testicles fully descended into the scrotum.
*Last Updated - December 2008*

Ditto the US standard:
*Golden Retriever Breed Standard*

*Sporting Group*

*General Appearance*
A symmetrical, powerful, active dog, sound and well put together, not clumsy nor long in the leg, displaying a kindly expression and possessing a personality that is eager, alert and self-confident. Primarily a hunting dog, he should be shown in hard working condition. Overall appearance, balance, gait and purpose to be given more emphasis than any of his component parts. *Faults*--Any departure from the described ideal shall be considered faulty to the degree to which it interferes with the breed’s purpose or is contrary to breed character.
*Size, Proportion, Substance*
Males 23-24 inches in height at withers; females 21½-22½ inches. Dogs up to one inch above or below standard size should be proportionately penalized. Deviation in height of more than one inch from the standard shall _disqualify_. Length from breastbone to point of buttocks slightly greater than height at withers in ratio of 12:11. Weight for dogs 65-75 pounds; bitches 55-65 pounds. 
*Head*
Broad in skull, slightly arched laterally and longitudinally without prominence of frontal bones (forehead) or occipital bones. _Stop_ well defined but not abrupt. _Foreface_ deep and wide, nearly as long as skull. *Muzzle* straight in profile, blending smooth and strongly into skull; when viewed in profile or from above, slightly deeper and wider at stop than at tip. No heaviness in flews. Removal of whiskers is permitted but not preferred. *Eyes* friendly and intelligent in expression, medium large with dark, close-fitting rims, set well apart and reasonably deep in sockets. Color preferably dark brown; medium brown acceptable. Slant eyes and narrow, triangular eyes detract from correct expression and are to be faulted. No white or haw visible when looking straight ahead. Dogs showing evidence of functional abnormality of eyelids or eyelashes (such as, but not limited to, trichiasis, entropion, ectropion, or distichiasis) are to be excused from the ring. *Ears* rather short with front edge attached well behind and just above the eye and falling close to cheek. When pulled forward, tip of ear should just cover the eye. Low, hound-like ear set to be faulted. *Nose* black or brownish black, though fading to a lighter shade in cold weather not serious. Pink nose or one seriously lacking in pigmentation to be faulted. *Teeth* scissors bite, in which the outer side of the lower incisors touches the inner side of the upper incisors. Undershot or overshot bite is a _disqualification._ Misalignment of teeth (irregular placement of incisors) or a level bite (incisors meet each other edge to edge) is undesirable, but not to be confused with undershot or overshot. Full dentition. Obvious gaps are serious faults.
*Neck, Topline, Body*
Neck medium long, merging gradually into well laid back shoulders, giving sturdy, muscular appearance. No throatiness. *Backline* strong and level from withers to slightly sloping croup, whether standing or moving. Sloping backline, roach or sway back, flat or steep croup to be faulted. *Body* well balanced, short coupled, deep through the chest. _Chest_ between forelegs at least as wide as a man’s closed hand including thumb, with well developed forechest. Brisket extends to elbow. _Ribs_ long and well sprung but not barrel shaped, extending well towards hindquarters. _Loin_ short, muscular, wide and deep, with very little tuck-up. Slab-sidedness, narrow chest, lack of depth in brisket, excessive tuck-up to be faulted. *Tail* well set on, thick and muscular at the base, following the natural line of the croup. Tail bones extend to, but not below, the point of hock. Carried with merry action, level or with some moderate upward curve; never curled over back nor between legs.
*Forequarters*
Muscular, well coordinated with hindquarters and capable of free movement. _Shoulder blades_ long and well laid back with upper tips fairly close together at withers. _Upper arms_ appear about the same length as the blades, setting the elbows back beneath the upper tip of the blades, close to the ribs without looseness. _Legs,_ viewed from the front, straight with good bone, but not to the point of coarseness. _Pasterns_ short and strong, sloping slightly with no suggestion of weakness. Dewclaws on forelegs may be removed, but are normally left on. *Feet* medium size, round, compact, and well knuckled, with thick pads. Excess hair may be trimmed to show natural size and contour. Splayed or hare feet to be faulted.
*Hindquarters*
Broad and strongly muscled. Profile of croup slopes slightly; the pelvic bone slopes at a slightly greater angle (approximately 30 degrees from horizontal). In a natural stance, the femur joins the pelvis at approximately a 90-degree angle; _stifles_ well bent; _hocks_ well let down with short, strong _rear pasterns._ _Feet_ as in front. _Legs_ straight when viewed from rear. Cow-hocks, spread hocks, and sickle hocks to be faulted.
*Coat*
Dense and water-repellent with good undercoat. Outer coat firm and resilient, neither coarse nor silky, lying close to body; may be straight or wavy. Untrimmed natural ruff; moderate feathering on back of forelegs and on underbody; heavier feathering on front of neck, back of thighs and underside of tail. Coat on head, paws, and front of legs is short and even. Excessive length, open coats, and limp, soft coats are very undesirable. Feet may be trimmed and stray hairs neatened, but the natural appearance of coat or outline should not be altered by cutting or clipping.
*Color*
Rich, lustrous golden of various shades. Feathering may be lighter than rest of coat. With the exception of graying or whitening of face or body due to age, any white marking, other than a few white hairs on the chest, should be penalized according to its extent. Allowable light shadings are not to be confused with white markings. Predominant body color which is either extremely pale or extremely dark is undesirable. Some latitude should be given to the light puppy whose coloring shows promise of deepening with maturity. Any noticeable area of black or other off-color hair is a serious fault.
*Gait*
When trotting, gait is free, smooth, powerful and well coordinated, showing good reach. Viewed from any position, legs turn neither in nor out, nor do feet cross or interfere with each other. As speed increases, feet tend to converge toward center line of balance. It is recommended that dogs be shown on a loose lead to reflect true gait.
*Temperament*
Friendly, reliable, and trustworthy. Quarrelsomeness or hostility towards other dogs or people in normal situations, or an unwarranted show of timidity or nervousness, is not in keeping with Golden Retriever character. Such actions should be penalized according to their significance.
*Disqualifications*
_Deviation in height of more than one inch from standard either way._
_Undershot or overshot bite._
*Approved October 13, 1981*
*Reformatted August 18, 1990*


And here, as posted on the Parmen Auriu website, breeders of Parmen Auriu Blizzard, is the FCI Standard:
Breed Standard

(Which, apparently just by posting it means they adhere to it, although 
much of their website text is exactly contrary to it. SO confusing for unaware buyers.)


----------



## eeneymeanymineymo

tippykayak said:


> OFA report on Blizzard De Parmen Auriu. Includes ratings on offspring, full siblings, and half siblings. There are 3 excellent and 8 good hip clearances in that group, though that report doesn't show dogs who weren't cleared.
> 
> OFA report on Eskimo Pie Evidog. No hip or elbow ratings available on any offspring, full siblings, or half siblings.


I believe the point Pointgold was making that neither the SIRE & DAM of Blizzard De Parmen Auriu nor the SIRE & DAM of Eskimo Pie Evidog are listed with OFA on either one of their OFA reports. Only offspring, full & half siblings are listed. In order to research a pedigree for clearances, the sire & dam need to be listed as well.

Pointgold wrote:

"Given that his sire is Skimo (Eskimo Pie Evidog)and from Slovakia, and* none of the dogs in his pedigree have OFA clearances*, this is not exactly true information, is it... His mother, BTW, Blizzard De Parmen Auriu, from Romania, has had at least 4 litters, her first being before the age of two."

Cynazar's website claims:

""Harvey"
*Born in Janurary of '09*


*This petite 100% European English male is packing amazing OFA ratings behind him. *With both parents being OFA Excellent, he will surely produce better hips in your breeding program. With a pure white coat and a calm temperament, he'll pass on more than just nice hips to his offspring. Has been X-Rayed and looks like he will get a GOOD to EXCELLENT at 2 years."


"Packing amazing OFA ratings behind him".......the sire & dam have OFA excellent hips. Beyond them, nothing exists on OFA generations behind them.


Shalva wrote:
"OK I have stayed out of this thread but this advertisement just infuriates me... and is what causes all breeders of english/european type dogs to be painted with the same brush. *There is nothing honest about this... not the statement regarding the dogs background and hip clearances, not the color of the dog (he is anything but white even if white were an actual color for goldens he is likely to be a light gold, shoot he may not even be cream) the guarantee about what he is likely to produce in hip scores.... nothing is honest here absolutely nothing. *

*There ARE reputable breeders of english/european type dogs... yet as soon as folks see our dogs they assume they come from places such as this. 
*
so there 
thats all I have to say...."


AGREED! I can't imagine how frustrating this must be for you. 

Pointgold wrote:
"And I agree with YOU 200%. 
*It is extremely frustrating for truly reputable, responsible breeders - no matter the style - those of us with strictly American bloodlines who read the drivel about how "English Cremes" are healthier, better, calmer, etc, and those who do use English (as in from ENGLAND) bloodlines for all the right reasons and have to read the drivel about how "rare" these "white" dogs are and how much healthier, better, calmer, etc these "100% English" dogs (from Romania, Slovakia, Poland, Hungary), etc are, and seeing photos of dogs of a quality that they most assuredly would not use in their breeding programs.*

*BUYER BEWARE. This is absolutely FALSE ADVERTISING."
*
THANK YOU for posting this. I am truly tired of it too.


----------



## eeneymeanymineymo

For educational purposes, please read this article "What Exactly Is An English Golden Retriever":

http://www.englishgoldens.net/pdf/WhatExactlyIsAnEnglishGoldenRetriever.pdf


----------



## tippykayak

eeneymeanymineymo said:


> I believe the point Pointgold was making that neither the SIRE & DAM of Blizzard De Parmen Auriu nor the SIRE & DAM of Eskimo Pie Evidog are listed with OFA on either one of their OFA reports. Only offspring, full & half siblings are listed. In order to research a pedigree for clearances, the sire & dam need to be listed as well.


I was not in any way contradicting Pointgold's point; all I did was post verifiable information about those two dogs. In fact, the information I posted appears to _confirm_ what she is saying, not contradict it. There are a handful of good OFA results on one side and _none_ on the other nor any from earlier generations (because those dogs, if cleared, were not cleared by the OFA). I was just putting the available information into the thread without comment on the breeder's character or intentions.


----------



## GoldensGirl

eeneymeanymineymo said:


> For educational purposes, please read this article "What Exactly Is An English Golden Retriever":
> 
> http://www.englishgoldens.net/pdf/WhatExactlyIsAnEnglishGoldenRetriever.pdf


Thank you for this pointer. I found it very informative, especially in this context of so much passionate disagreement.


----------



## eeneymeanymineymo

Cynazar Goldens said:


> We are doing CERFs- Your statement is false. We need to have them done not only to show to our puppy owners that each of our dogs are healthy, but to verify for our own knowledge that we are breeding the best dogs possible. The only thing you can fault us on is for not sending each form into the online database. However, after reading the constructive critisism in this blog, I am going to send the forms in to avoid any further suspicion. I greatly appreciate constructive critisism and helpful advice, but do not appreciate those who are trying to discredit our breeding program by saying that we don't do complete our clearances, that we don't socialize our dogs properly, or that we ever attempted to "dupe" a family into buying one of our puppies. These are all false.


Sorry to bring this thread back to life, but the above quote was made on 11/24/10 and I just checked the OFA website to see if Cynazar Goldens had sent in the ophthalmologist reports as she promised and I see nothing new listed. 

I did notice that the 'shading system' has been deleted from the website on the goldens listed for sale as well as the prices have now vanished on each dog. Additional cost of full registration is no longer listed as well.


----------



## Pointgold

eeneymeanymineymo said:


> Sorry to bring this thread back to life, but the above quote was made on 11/24/10 and I just checked the OFA website to see if Cynazar Goldens had sent in the ophthalmologist reports as she promised and I see nothing new listed.
> 
> I did notice that the 'shading system' has been deleted from the website on the goldens listed for sale as well as the prices have now vanished on each dog. Additional cost of full registration is no longer listed as well.


 
And herein lies the basis of my "love/hate" relationship with the internet. SO much good information is available out there, and so much of it is used by so many to "talk the talk" while not walking the walk. That website was modified so many times during the discussions here to reflect what was said by reputable people...:no:


----------



## AmbikaGR

eeneymeanymineymo said:


> Sorry to bring this thread back to life, but the above quote was made on 11/24/10 and I just checked the OFA website to see if Cynazar Goldens had sent in the ophthalmologist reports as she promised and I see nothing new listed.
> 
> I did notice that the 'shading system' has been deleted from the website on the goldens listed for sale as well as the prices have now vanished on each dog. Additional cost of full registration is no longer listed as well.



It can take several weeks for the results to get posted to the CERF database and then forwarded to the OFA website. And with the holidays I am sure everything is taking longer. But I would assume they are going to go to a club sponsored eye clinic. There are several coming up in the next couple of months in their area that are within easy driving distance. So I would guess it will still be a while., if ever, you will see them there. But I am VERY hopeful.


----------



## Pointgold

AmbikaGR said:


> It can take several weeks for the results to get posted to the CERF database and then forwarded to the OFA website. And with the holidays I am sure everything is taking longer. But I would assume they are going to go to a club sponsored eye clinic. There are several coming up in the next couple of months in their area that are within easy driving distance. So I would guess it will still be a while., if ever, you will see them there. But I am VERY hopeful.


 
But Hank - they already had them done, remember? All they needed to do was mail them.


----------



## AmbikaGR

Pointgold said:


> But Hank - they already had them done, remember? All they needed to do was mail them.



Laura, if the bubble sheets were a year or more old would CERF accept them?


----------



## eeneymeanymineymo

Pointgold said:


> But Hank - they already had them done, remember? All they needed to do was mail them.


EXACTLY!!! Hank - I am very familiar with how long it takes to get the CERF form back and how long it takes to post those results on the CERF website. 

Cynazar Goldens wrote:
The only thing you can fault us on is for not sending each form into the online database. However, after reading the constructive critisism in this blog, I am going to send the forms in to avoid any further suspicion. 

It will be 6 weeks tomorrow since the claim was made that the CERF forms were being MAILED in. Perhaps the Cynazar website will reflect the CERF numbers to prove us all wrong. It does not take 6 weeks to get the actual CERF number back. Yes - agreed the CERF & OFA websites take a bit longer to update each dog once the CERF number has been issued.


----------



## AmbikaGR

eeneymeanymineymo said:


> EXACTLY!!! Hank - I am very familiar with how long it takes to get the CERF form back and how long it takes to post those results on the CERF website.
> 
> Cynazar Goldens wrote:
> The only thing you can fault us on is for not sending each form into the online database. However, after reading the constructive critisism in this blog, I am going to send the forms in to avoid any further suspicion.
> 
> It will be 6 weeks tomorrow since the claim was made that the CERF forms were being MAILED in. Perhaps the Cynazar website will reflect the CERF numbers to prove us all wrong. It does not take 6 weeks to get the actual CERF number back. Yes - agreed the CERF & OFA websites take a bit longer to update each dog once the CERF number has been issued.



Easy.
I believe that post was made on December 4. Today is Jan 4. So that is 4 weeks and 4 days. And in there you have Christmas and New Years also. 
I also interpreted the statement as to imply they would send in future CERF exam reports but I very well could be wrong on this.


----------



## eeneymeanymineymo

AmbikaGR said:


> Easy.
> I believe that post was made on December 4. Today is Jan 4. So that is 4 weeks and 4 days. And in there you have Christmas and New Years also.
> I also interpreted the statement as to imply they would send in future CERF exam reports but I very well could be wrong on this.


Here is the post from Jenne Black on 11/24/2010 in it's entirity:

*11-24-2010, 10:29 PM
Cynazar Goldens 
Jenne Black

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Central Jersey
Posts: 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pointgold 
The breeder is not doing CERFs
We are doing CERFs- Your statement is false. We need to have them done not only to show to our puppy owners that each of our dogs are healthy, but to verify for our own knowledge that we are breeding the best dogs possible. The only thing you can fault us on is for not sending each form into the online database. However, after reading the constructive critisism in this blog, I am going to send the forms in to avoid any further suspicion. I greatly appreciate constructive critisism and helpful advice, but do not appreciate those who are trying to discredit our breeding program by saying that we don't do complete our clearances, that we don't socialize our dogs properly, or that we ever attempted to "dupe" a family into buying one of our puppies. These are all false.*


----------



## AmbikaGR

As I said I very well could be wrong.


----------



## Pointgold

AmbikaGR said:


> Laura, if the bubble sheets were a year or more old would CERF accept them?


I doubt it. But, remember, Hank - they claim to get them done every year... so, they'd be current.

I spoke with CERF and they said that during this busy time it may take up to 3 weeks to get the numbers up.


----------



## AmbikaGR

AmbikaGR said:


> Laura, if the bubble sheets were a year or more old would CERF accept them?





Pointgold said:


> I doubt it. But, remember, Hank - they claim to get them done every year... so, they'd be current.
> 
> I spoke with CERF and they said that during this busy time it may take up to 3 weeks to get the numbers up.



Surprise, I just heard back from CERF and they will accept old exam forms and even issue a certification number for a first time submission. Here is the reply I got.

"We will accept past year forms, even though they are out of date and expired. If this is the first time for a CERF they will still get a CERF number."


----------



## Pointgold

AmbikaGR said:


> Surprise, I just heard back from CERF and they will accept old exam forms and even issue a certification number for a first time submission. Here is the reply I got.
> 
> "We will accept past year forms, even though they are out of date and expired. If this is the first time for a CERF they will still get a CERF number."


 
Well, then. The Cynazar dogs should crash that CERF site soon, there will be so many of them, right???

It actually makes sense. If someone submits past year forms but never current ones, we'd just see that they do not test annually.


----------



## eeneymeanymineymo

AmbikaGR said:


> Surprise, I just heard back from CERF and they will accept old exam forms and even issue a certification number for a first time submission. Here is the reply I got.
> 
> "We will accept past year forms, even though they are out of date and expired. If this is the first time for a CERF they will still get a CERF number."


I had posted this before on another thread 'Pedigree Guru Needed" in December 2010 that you can send past eye exam forms in and have them listed with CERF. So anyone who claims they cannot be sent in after they have expired since it is past one year of the date of the exam is incorrect. CERF will accept them and always have. They are a registry - they are not going to turn your money away. For 10 years worth of eye clearances on a popular stud dog that the stud dog owner claims to have done (but never sends them in) will only cost them $ 15 for the first report, then $ 12 for each for the next 9 years making this a grand total of $ 123 to list the reports on CERF. Having that history listed with CERF is priceless.

_Pointgold wrote:
Well, then. The Cynazar dogs should crash that CERF site soon, there will be so many of them, right???

It actually makes sense. If someone submits past year forms but never current ones, we'd just see that they do not test annually._


LOL !!!! I am still waiting!


----------



## Rhapsody in Gold

Pointgold said:


> And herein lies the basis of my "love/hate" relationship with the internet. SO much good information is available out there, and so much of it is used by so many to "talk the talk" while not walking the walk. That website was modified so many times during the discussions here to reflect what was said by reputable people...:no:


You know what? Here is the problem I am having - the young person you have been communicating with and going on and on about here is just 18 years old. Did you see her picture? There is a line adults should not cross. Do you have children that are just starting out in life - trying to figure out who they are? I think you have made your point and yet you go on and on. Sure, she is probably imitating what she sees out there in the market place . . . 

Quite honestly, I don't know how a reputable breeder could have so much time and energy to beat this young person down. It is so negative. I suggested weeks ago that a breeder mentor this young person. Isn't that what this fine group of people is all about - sharing knowledge and expertise - lending someone a hand? 

You don't know what her home situation is like - you don't know what her family life is like - you don't know if her family is struggling. It just doesn't seem to be an even playing field. 

Be kind . . . Golden Retrievers know how to do that . . . why can't some breeders and owners? Especially to young people . . . holy cow, this is such a good reason not to be here . . . 

I would hope someone would help her - stick their neck out for this young person . . . help the group re-direct the energy in a positive way. Try to remember all the people who helped you along the way . . .


----------



## Enzos_Mom

Marty's Mom said:


> You know what? Here is the problem I am having - the young person you have been communicating with and going on and on about here is just 18 years old. Did you see her picture? There is a line adults should not cross. Do you have children that are just starting out in life - trying to figure out who they are? I think you have made your point and yet you go on and on. Sure, she is probably imitating what she sees out there in the market place . . .
> 
> Quite honestly, I don't know how a reputable breeder could have so much time and energy to beat this young person down. It is so negative. I suggested weeks ago that a breeder mentor this young person. Isn't that what this fine group of people is all about - sharing knowledge and expertise - lending someone a hand?
> 
> You don't know what her home situation is like - you don't know what her family life is like - you don't know if her family is struggling. It just doesn't seem to be an even playing field.
> 
> Be kind . . . Golden Retrievers know how to do that . . . especially to young people.
> 
> I would hope someone would help here - stick there neck out for this young person . . . help the group re-direct the energy in a positive way. Try to remember all the people who helped you along the way . . .


I just wanted to point out that you were all up in arms about Chantilly Retrievers and the "mistakes" in their breeding program in that other thread, which were honest mistakes and not the norm for that breeder. The things mentioned in this thread are things that should be rectified and haven't been, yet you're defending them. This comes off as a bit hypocritical. Eighteen year olds aren't as young and naive as a lot of the people on this forum seem to think that they are. I'm not much older than that myself.


----------



## Pointgold

Marty's Mom said:


> You know what? Here is the problem I am having - the young person you have been communicating with and going on and on about here is just 18 years old. Did you see her picture? There is a line adults should not cross. Do you have children that are just starting out in life - trying to figure out who they are? I think you have made your point and yet you go on and on. Sure, she is probably imitating what she sees out there in the market place . . .
> 
> Quite honestly, I don't know how a reputable breeder could have so much time and energy to beat this young person down. It is so negative. I suggested weeks ago that a breeder mentor this young person. Isn't that what this fine group of people is all about - sharing knowledge and expertise - lending someone a hand?
> 
> You don't know what her home situation is like - you don't know what her family life is like - you don't know if her family is struggling. It just doesn't seem to be an even playing field.
> 
> Be kind . . . Golden Retrievers know how to do that . . . why can't some breeders and owners? Especially to young people . . . holy cow, this is such a good reason not to be here . . .
> 
> I would hope someone would help her - stick their neck out for this young person . . . help the group re-direct the energy in a positive way. Try to remember all the people who helped you along the way . . .


 
This is her mother's operation. How about her mother speaking for herself and not having her daughter do it, unless she acutally is... No one is beating down the young woman at all. If she, or her mother, or anyone else is going to present themself to the public as breeders, and make the claims that they do, they've opened themselves up to the challenges and scrutiny they have gotten.


----------



## Rhapsody in Gold

Enzos_Mom said:


> I just wanted to point out that you were all up in arms about Chantilly Retrievers and the "mistakes" in their breeding program in that other thread, which were honest mistakes and not the norm for that breeder. The things mentioned in this thread are things that should be rectified and haven't been, yet you're defending them. This comes off as a bit hypocritical. Eighteen year olds aren't as young and naive as a lot of the people on this forum seem to think that they are. I'm not much older than that myself.


I disagree.


----------



## Rhapsody in Gold

Pointgold said:


> This is her mother's operation. How about her mother speaking for herself and not having her daughter do it, unless she acutally is... No one is beating down the young woman at all. If she, or her mother, or anyone else is going to present themself to the public as breeders, and make the claims that they do, they've opened themselves up to the challenges and scrutiny they have gotten.


You don't have to answer this, but do you have children, PointGold? You don't know this person. For goodness sakes, this is the internet. You don't know what her mother is like. You don't know a thing about her. If you had called her and talked to her and knew something about her - - - but you are not willing to do that. When is this going to stop? 

I suggest this threat be closed. It is not helpful. I am upset because I have spent way too much time reading this stuff. It is so negative and so draining.


----------



## Pointgold

Marty's Mom said:


> You don't have to answer this, but do you have children, PointGold? You don't know this person. For goodness sakes, this is the internet. You don't know what her mother is like. You don't know a thing about her. If you had called her and talked to her and knew something about her - - - but you are not willing to do that. When is this going to stop?
> 
> I suggest this threat be closed. It is not helpful. I am upset because I have spent way too much time reading this stuff. It is so negative and so draining.


It's a business for Cynazar. Attention to detail and all that.  
There have been more than three instances where there was a lack of attention to detail on their website and several people challenged that. Is the person being 18 the deciding factor there? Do you know how old Chantilly's breeder is? Should it matter?


----------



## Rhapsody in Gold

Pointgold said:


> It's a business for Cynazar. Attention to detail and all that.
> There have been more than three instances where there was a lack of attention to detail on their website and several people challenged that. Is the person being 18 the deciding factor there? Do you know how old Chantilly's breeder is? Should it matter?


I see a picture of a kid - and if you have children you would understand. I see a picture of a kid who does not have much. That breaks my heart. I see a picture of a kid who is trying to do something with her life and fit in. I see a picture of reputable breeders who are assuming the worst about her - I'll bet she is making it up as she goes along - sure - she has no life experience. 

I am not going to address the other thread because it would be misunderstood and cause another breeder more embarrassment, which is something I tried very hard not to do. 

Look, everything you post to this person - who you don't know for sure is the daughter or mother - is a waste of your precious time. You don't know anything about her or her mother - all you know is what is represented on the website, which you detest. See how silly that is? You are better than that . . . its laughable . . . who are you fighting?

I'm sorry . . . but if you truly were as invested in the betterment of the breed (and I do think you are), then you would give the breeder a call - get to know her . . . just try.


----------



## Enzos_Mom

Marty's Mom said:


> I see a picture of a kid - and if you have children you would understand. I see a picture of a kid who does not have much. That breaks my heart.


Where do you get that she does not have much??


----------



## BeauShel

This thread was opened back up to address the questions by request of cynazar goldens but never has answered questions just made posts here and there. Which opened herself up to more questions and no answers. She suggested several times in her posts there was plenty of help on their farm for the dogs. But that is neither here nor there. From what I have been told she wont be back so there is no need to keep going around and around. 

I can only hope she has taken the best points of the thread like doing the proper clearances on the heart, eyes, hips and elbows. Doing the eyes and heart every year. Sending them into the proper places so they will able to be seen by everyone and recorded for they can be part of the databases for future generations. They will start following the Golden Retriever Club of American guidelines and doing everything that should be done to be a responsible breeder. Not breeding until they are at least 2 years old. Competing in some type of venue to get their dogs evaulated by an outside source not just her mother. If the daughter is the one that is now taking over the breeding program from the mother that she finds a mentor to help her because there is no way she can know everything at her age there is to know about breeding. Even people twice her age dont know everything just starting out. Cut down on the number of dogs she has. Become more of a hobby breeder instead of a breeder just popping out litter after litter. 

It would be best to let the thread die and hope the CERF's show up and if they dont, we have our answers, without going on and on over and over again. Maybe in 6 weeks just post CERF not shown up or outdated, and that says it all. Without the bickering again back and forth.


----------



## Pointgold

Marty's Mom said:


> I see a picture of a kid - and if you have children you would understand. I see a picture of a kid who does not have much. That breaks my heart. I see a picture of a kid who is trying to do something with her life and fit in. I see a picture of reputable breeders who are assuming the worst about her - I'll bet she is making it up as she goes along - sure - she has no life experience.
> 
> I am not going to address the other thread because it would be misunderstood and cause another breeder more embarrassment, which is something I tried very hard not to do.
> 
> Look, everything you post to this person - who you don't know for sure is the daughter or mother - is a waste of your precious time. You don't know anything about her or her mother - all you know is what is represented on the website, which you detest. See how silly that is? You are better than that . . . its laughable . . . who are you fighting?
> 
> I'm sorry . . . but if you truly were as invested in the betterment of the breed (and I do think you are), then you would give the breeder a call - get to know her . . . just try.


 
I don't think their situation is quite as dire as you would seem to believe it is. I don't think having a home in NJ and an "estate in PA" is all that heatbreaking. The daughter actually would seem to be quite privileged, based on her own postings. You are correct in that I do not know if I am addressing the daughter or the mother. We'd like to assume, though, that people are not misrepresenting who they are here... I also would assume that the mother is well aware of what is going on, as the daughter names herself as co-breeder, co-manager, etc. 
I do not "detest" their website. It's about accuracy. As you yourself, being a business woman, was keen to point out about Chantilly. I dare say that I do know something about that breeder/family situation, and you might be quite surprised if you were to make comparisons.

You know nothing about me. I don't need to defend my sincerity and my own committment to "betterment of the breed". (I am not actually that unrealistic as to think that what I have done in the breed has "bettered" it, but hopefully I've at the very least helped to maintain it's integrity...) 

Not really sure why you focus strictly on what I have said here, as there have been many others of the same opinion and who have challenged this and other breeders, as well. 

And, by the way, I do have children. Frankly I don't see how it is relevant, though, to this situation.


----------



## Rhapsody in Gold

You can be the wealthiest person and yet be very needy . . . 

I agree with your decision, Carol. I will post nothing further on this thread. Thanks for all you do.


----------



## eeneymeanymineymo

Marty's Mom said:


> You know what? Here is the problem I am having - the young person you have been communicating with and going on and on about here is just 18 years old. Did you see her picture? There is a line adults should not cross. Do you have children that are just starting out in life - trying to figure out who they are? I think you have made your point and yet you go on and on. Sure, she is probably imitating what she sees out there in the market place . . .
> 
> Quite honestly, I don't know how a reputable breeder could have so much time and energy to beat this young person down. It is so negative. I suggested weeks ago that a breeder mentor this young person. Isn't that what this fine group of people is all about - sharing knowledge and expertise - lending someone a hand?
> 
> You don't know what her home situation is like - you don't know what her family life is like - you don't know if her family is struggling. It just doesn't seem to be an even playing field.
> 
> Be kind . . . Golden Retrievers know how to do that . . . why can't some breeders and owners? Especially to young people . . . holy cow, this is such a good reason not to be here . . .
> 
> I would hope someone would help her - stick their neck out for this young person . . . help the group re-direct the energy in a positive way. Try to remember all the people who helped you along the way . . .




Marty's Mom - you just stated "Here is the problem I am having" which you are voicing your opinion - which is fine. This thread is about Cynazar Goldens. You are trying to make it about a child, who is now an adult, being attacked by Pointgold.

The 'child' you describe is an adult once they turn 18 years old in most every state in the union. In NJ, adult means an individual 18 yrs. or older. The age of majority in PA, is 18. They can vote, buy a house, wed their high school sweetheart, get sued and go to jail. 

The age of majority is the threshold of adulthood in law. It is the chronological moment when a child legally ceases to be considered a minor. After attaining the age of majority, a person assumes control over their persons, actions and decisions. S/he terminates the legal control and legal responsibilities of parents or guardian. The age of majority is a legally fixed age, concept or statutory principle, which may differ depending on the jurisdiction. The age of majority may not necessarily correspond to actual mental or physical maturity of an individual.

That child (now an adult) made a statement that she was mailing in all eye reports back on 11/24/2010. It will be 6 weeks tomorrow. I have checked the website which has gone through many changes since Jenne came on this forum and responded to this thread. I have no idea whether the person responding on this forum is Jenne or her mother. I posted today - not Pointgold - that after checking the CERF website, still no listings for eye clearances.

I am not picking on a child (now an adult). I am reading Jenne/her mother's website and interpreting what information has been placed for the PUBLIC to view. White golden retrievers, guaranteed to pass all clearances, paying $ 1000 more for full registration.........all red flags. Remember this is a BUSINESS.

No one set out to intentionally hurt a child. None of us knows her, her lifestyle or her home life......it is a business, remember? Is it her mother responding? Who knows and seriously, what does it matter to you or me? If you feel her mother has not mentored this child (now an adult) properly, then perhaps you should contact her and offer to mentor her. Just a suggestion.

It is unfair to suggest that Pointgold is targeting Jenne. Many people on this forum have responded trying to educate and have faith that Cynazar Goldens could perhaps change their marketing ploys on their website and start showing their dogs in conformation, agility or obedience. Start sending in ALL ophthalmologist reports that they claimed on their website as having CERF #'s. They removed the shading system and now do not list prices on their available pups and adults. Obviously they learned something from this forum.


----------



## AmbikaGR

eeneymeanymineymo said:


> Obviously they learned something from this forum.


And with all they changed on the website, the dogs are still listed as "Eyes - CERF Clear" :doh: 

But I am still pulling for them to get those forms in and the dogs "CERF CLEARED" for real. But they may be dealing with other issues at this time and are putting this on the back burner. Sorry to hear that Jenne is not expected back here.


----------



## mybuddy

Marty's Mom said:


> You can be the wealthiest person and yet be very needy . . .
> 
> I agree with your decision, Carol. I will post nothing further on this thread. Thanks for all you do.


Marty's Mom....your heart is very "golden". ....:--heart:


----------



## mybuddy

Happy New year Cynazar!:wavey:arty2:arty:


----------



## eeneymeanymineymo

AmbikaGR said:


> And with all they changed on the website, the dogs are still listed as "Eyes - CERF Clear" :doh:
> 
> But I am still pulling for them to get those forms in and the dogs "CERF CLEARED" for real. But they may be dealing with other issues at this time and are putting this on the back burner. Sorry to hear that Jenne is not expected back here.


And so am I hoping they get those eye reports in and get CERF's on all the dogs they claimed on this forum as having but never sent them in.

I wasn't even going to mention that the dogs are still listed as "Eyes-CERF Clear' on the website but you did.

I do hope Jenne changes her mind and does come back to the forum as well.


----------



## Pointgold

I would hope that she would come back, as well. If she (or her mother, or whoever) does all that they claim they are going to, why wouldn't she? It would prove us all wrong, and they'd be much better (not to mention the dogs) for doing so.
Hopefully it isn't a case of "we're not going to change/improve, so why come back and hear about it?" rather than hearing "Good for you for doing it RIGHT! Welcome!"


----------



## pegburns

I never thought I'd be posting again on this thread but feel I need to update everyone here as I am Cynazar Golden owner....if you remember I was very defensive of Cynazar... I love my dog and feel she is very special but after reading through all the opinions of Cynazar on this thread, I needed to do some research myself....my dog, Kasey, had a problem at 6 months old...she started to limp sponataneously, without any injury....after x-rays, I was told she had the start of hip dysplasia on the right back hip....I've kept her weight down but in December, the limp reappeared again....after taking her to an ortho specialist, I've been told she will need surgery on both back hips at some time in the future, most likely before she is 3 years old....I was also told that her parents may have excellent hips but Kasey could still have hip problems, due to complex genetics....at this point, I was not angry and did not blame Cynazar for Kasey's problem....however, after e-mailing Jenne, her mother, Cynthia, and Cynazar on their website several times, I have not received ANY response from them....I simply asked for advise on specialists and requested copies of the clearances and medical history on the parents and after a week, no response...I'm extremely disappointed that Kasey's breeder would not be interested in the fact that at least 2 goldens from the same litter have hip problems significant enough to warrant surgery and another golden from a different litter but with the same mother also needs hip surgery at only 8 months old....when Jenne asked the Cynazar golden owners to post their opinions of Cynazar on this thread, I jumped at the chance to help Cynazar out and truly posted my honest opinion but when I asked for Cynazar's help, none was given....I don't blame Cynazar for Kasey's problems but am extremely disappointed that after paying $1800.00 for my precious Kasey, the breeder has shown no interest in her well-being.


----------



## nixietink

pegburns said:


> I never thought I'd be posting again on this thread but feel I need to update everyone here as I am Cynazar Golden owner....if you remember I was very defensive of Cynazar... I love my dog and feel she is very special but after reading through all the opinions of Cynazar on this thread, I needed to do some research myself....my dog, Kasey, had a problem at 6 months old...she started to limp sponataneously, without any injury....after x-rays, I was told she had the start of hip dysplasia on the right back hip....I've kept her weight down but in December, the limp reappeared again....after taking her to an ortho specialist, I've been told she will need surgery on both back hips at some time in the future, most likely before she is 3 years old....I was also told that her parents may have excellent hips but Kasey could still have hip problems, due to complex genetics....at this point, I was not angry and did not blame Cynazar for Kasey's problem....however, after e-mailing Jenne, her mother, Cynthia, and Cynazar on their website several times, I have not received ANY response from them....I simply asked for advise on specialists and requested copies of the clearances and medical history on the parents and after a week, no response...I'm extremely disappointed that Kasey's breeder would not be interested in the fact that at least 2 goldens from the same litter have hip problems significant enough to warrant surgery and another golden from a different litter but with the same mother also needs hip surgery at only 8 months old....when Jenne asked the Cynazar golden owners to post their opinions of Cynazar on this thread, I jumped at the chance to help Cynazar out and truly posted my honest opinion but when I asked for Cynazar's help, none was given....I don't blame Cynazar for Kasey's problems but am extremely disappointed that after paying $1800.00 for my precious Kasey, the breeder has shown no interest in her well-being.


I just wanted to pop back into this thread and say that I am so sorry for what you and your Kasey are going through. I know it is so difficult.  I'm also sorry that Cynazar has not been there for you in this time. It is very bothersome.

Give Kasey a hug!


----------



## solinvictus

Welcome back Peg!

Sincere good wishes for you and your Kasey. I haven't had any experience with hip dysplasia but I think those that have will be happy to give any advice they can offer. Probably better to open another thread just for that though.


----------



## pegburns

Cynazar Goldens said:


> That is what I am here for- to answer questions. I am asked a myriad of things via email, over the phone, and in person each and every day, and answer them as truthfully and completely as I can. I see that many questions have been asked over the past 24 hours, during which I've been running errands and haven't had the chance to log on. I've actually been so busy that I've gotten a total of 6 hours sleep over the past 4 days' time (I am amazed that I am still going!!). If I were reluctant to answer questions, I would definitely not be here right now!


I find this statement about answering e-mails, phone calls, and questions not exactly truthful after my and several other Cynazar golden owners experiences over the past 2 weeks....I have been in contact with several other Cynazar owners who are having health issues with their dogs (8 months old - 1 1/2 years old) who have tried to contact Cynazar with absolutely no response...it seems they respond only to positive feedback from their dog owners.....I have never even met Jenne...I purchased my golden from Cynazar in North Brunswick, N.J. and only Cynthia, the mother, was there....I don't know who really is the breeder here, but if I had showed up to purchase a puppy and an 18 year old was there to sell me the dog, I would have turned around and run....Cynthia seemed to be very intelligent and well informed and answered all my questions, so I felt comfortable purchasing the dog from her....I can only speak from my experience, but I'm wondering why Cynthia is not defending her business herself and is letting her 18 year old daughter deal with the fallout....I'm hoping that Jenne is still following this thread and will respond to my questions.


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## BeauShel

Peg,
I am so sorry that Kasey has the beginnings of hip dysplasia and will need surgery. And so sorry and mad for you that Jeanne and her Mom are not getting back to you. They should be stepping up to the plate now and helping you and the other owners now by at least responding emails. We may be tough here on the forum but it is because of instances like this. We have seen it over and over and breeders just walking away. 

I pray that Kasey will be ok and recover from her surgery. If you have any questions about the type of surgeries or recovery just ask, we have had several members that have gone thru the surgeries. Give her a big kiss. Good luck with everything and I hope you will get some answers from Cynazar.


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## pegburns

solinvictus said:


> Welcome back Peg!
> 
> Sincere good wishes for you and your Kasey. I haven't had any experience with hip dysplasia but I think those that have will be happy to give any advice they can offer. Probably better to open another thread just for that though.


Thanks so much for the welcome....I agree another thread for advice would be a good idea....Thanks to everyone for their advice and good wishes!!


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## pegburns

BeauShel said:


> Peg,
> I am so sorry that Kasey has the beginnings of hip dysplasia and will need surgery. And so sorry and mad for you that Jeanne and her Mom are not getting back to you. I know in the past you thought we were hard on them, but I hope you can see why it is so important when we tell breeders to walk the walk and do the right things for their dogs and for the people that purchase their dogs. It is not to be mean but because we hate to see people like you go thru this with your dog. Yes it can happen with a quality breeder but it will not happen as often when all the proper clearances are done. This is no fault of yours, it is the fault of the breeder.
> 
> I pray that Kasey will be ok and recover from her surgery. If you have any questions about the type of surgeries or recovery just ask, we have had several members that have gone thru the surgeries. Give her a big kiss. Good luck with everything and I hope you will get some answers from Cynazar.


 Thank you so much....I now realize what all the "hard" questions were about!!...Kasey's prognosis is good with proper treatment but as her "mother" I hate to see her go through this....Once again, I don't blame Cynazar for health issues (yet!) but am very disturbed that all the Cynazar dog owners who have dogs with problems have not had a response from Cynazar....I find that not only unprofessional but very suspect....whatever, Kasey will get the best care I can find for her and I appreciate all the advice from all those who have experience with this....Thanks again!


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## pegburns

nixietink said:


> I just wanted to pop back into this thread and say that I am so sorry for what you and your Kasey are going through. I know it is so difficult.  I'm also sorry that Cynazar has not been there for you in this time. It is very bothersome.
> 
> Give Kasey a hug!


Thanks to everone...Kasey thanks everyone for the hugs and kisses...she loves the attention!!!...she is such a loving, sweet dog, so I could never regret purchasing her from Cynazar....my concern is for her and all the other dogs being bred from these same parents.....I thought Cynazar would welcome the info about the health issues so they could investigate themselves and possibly adjust their breeding program....hopefully that is happening even though they are not responding to the owners.


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## tippykayak

pegburns said:


> was also told that her parents may have excellent hips but Kasey could still have hip problems, due to complex genetics....at this point, I was not angry and did not blame Cynazar for Kasey's problem....however, after e-mailing Jenne, her mother, Cynthia, and Cynazar on their website several times, I have not received ANY response from them....I simply asked for advise on specialists and requested copies of the clearances and medical history on the parents and after a week, no response...


That absolutely stinks. I think you'll find lots of other folks on the forum who've been through hip dysplasia and surgery with their dogs, and there's lots of great advice about weight, supplements, appropriate exercise, etc., and you'll get a de facto support group too.

As far as its not being Cynazar's fault, the holes in the hip pedigrees have been discussed several times in the thread. If they're not being consistent about hip clearances, then they're not doing everything they can to prevent this kind of situation. I would be very curious to see your pup's extended pedigree and to check whether all the hip clearances were actually done and whether all the dogs passed.


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## pegburns

tippykayak said:


> That absolutely stinks. I think you'll find lots of other folks on the forum who've been through hip dysplasia and surgery with their dogs, and there's lots of great advice about weight, supplements, appropriate exercise, etc., and you'll get a de facto support group too.
> 
> As far as it's not being Cynazar's fault, the holes in the hip pedigrees have been discussed several times in the thread. If they're not being consistent about hip clearances, then they're not doing everything they can to prevent this kind of situation. I would be very curious to see your pup's extended pedigree and to check whether all the hip clearances were actually done and whether all the dogs passed.


I have asked for the parents' clearances and health history to no avail...when I purchased Kasey, Cynthia showed me clearances on the parents but now I'm enlightened enough to realize I very well may have been duped...if the hip clearances were there, wouldn't Cynazar be more than happy to provide them to me?....I'm more angry at myself for not doing due diligence when purchasing Kasey, but several friends of mine had Cynazar Goldens and had no problems (that I know of!!).....I am very suspect of them now only because they will not respond to my questions but I cannot change my situation...my concern is for future Cynazar goldens and the people who will purchase them....anyone who knowingly continues to breed dogs without clearances is not a dog lover or a reputable breeder.


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## Braccarius

Ugh Peg... thats terrible that she has Hip Displaysia. Just know that HD isn't a sentence to suffering... that there are a LOT of things you can do for your baby to keep her comfortable. 

"Excellents" can produce displaystic puppies, but if it is two in a litter and bilateral I have very substantial misgivings.


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## Pointgold

pegburns said:


> Thanks so much for the welcome....I agree another thread for advice would be a good idea....Thanks to everyone for their advice and good wishes!!


A diagnosis of HD doesn't necessarily mean that Kasey will be crippled or even dramitically limited in how she lives her life. So much can be done to assure her comfort, even without surgical intervention. 

I am very sorry that you have to deal with this, and even more sorry that you have become disillusioned with someone that you so loyally defended. It cannot be easy.

I would like to say that this in no way makes me feel good, or validated, or smug. It makes me sad for the dogs, and the nice people who love them. I have seen far too much of this in my many years in dogs.


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## Braccarius

> I would like to say that this in no way makes me feel good, or validated, or smug. It makes me sad for the dogs, and the nice people who love them. I have seen far too much of this in my many years in dogs.


This is my exact thoughts on this situation as well. There's no satisfaction in health problems -- let alone an animal who doesn't understand why they hurt. The people who love their dogs, truly and completely, wouldn't change them for the world even if they have hip displaysia. My Calvin despite all of his problems was still my dog... and though his life was one of suffering... I'm still blessed to have loved and owned him.

Peg, I feel this thread does not represent what this forum truly is about. I know we seem to be a group of "nitpicking hecklers" from this thread. But, this forum, in my experience, is far more about celebrating dog ownership and that includes the bad things that come with it. Please, stay on with us... we'd love to have you!


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## BeauShel

I am glad that we kept the thread opened and Peg came back posted about Kasey, I know it had to hard. Not all people would. So kudos to Peg. People say we are tough on breeders and maybe we are, but it is not to be mean. It is because we have seen over and over people having problems with breeders saying the right things but not doing the them. And it is the dogs and owners that suffer, not the breeders, they just move on along. 

That is why so important to do the clearances and send them into the proper agencies. Not only will they be seen and easily verified but will be on file for future reference for new buyers and existing buyers. And a good breeder will give a file with all paperwork of clearances, copies of AKC and pedigrees. Some will give more things like pictures, feeding schedules, ideas of caring for dogs, etc.


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## tippykayak

pegburns said:


> I have asked for the parents' clearances and health history to no avail...when I purchased Kasey, Cynthia showed me clearances on the parents but now I'm enlightened enough to realize I very well may have been duped...if the hip clearances were there, wouldn't Cynazar be more than happy to provide them to me?....I'm more angry at myself for not doing due diligence when purchasing Kasey, but several friends of mine had Cynazar Goldens and had no problems (that I know of!!).....I am very suspect of them now only because they will not respond to my questions but I cannot change my situation...my concern is for future Cynazar goldens and the people who will purchase them....anyone who knowingly continues to breed dogs without clearances is not a dog lover or a reputable breeder.


Do you have the parents' registered names and/or AKC numbers?

And I'll look for your other thread about joint advice, but the first thing I'd do in your shoes is start a glucosamine/chondroitin supplement.


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## pegburns

Thanks, already started glucosamine at specialist's advice.....problem is going to be limiting stair climbing and running in a 1 1/2 year old happy, joyful Golden who loves to retrieve and run....that makes me really sad!


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## pegburns

Braccarius said:


> This is my exact thoughts on this situation as well. There's no satisfaction in health problems -- let alone an animal who doesn't understand why they hurt. The people who love their dogs, truly and completely, wouldn't change them for the world even if they have hip displaysia. My Calvin despite all of his problems was still my dog... and though his life was one of suffering... I'm still blessed to have loved and owned him.
> 
> Peg, I feel this thread does not represent what this forum truly is about. I know we seem to be a group of "nitpicking hecklers" from this thread. But, this forum, in my experience, is far more about celebrating dog ownership and that includes the bad things that come with it. Please, stay on with us... we'd love to have you!


Thank you so much...I know I can learn much from this forum.....I'm sorry to hear your Calvin suffered but I know no matter what happens with Kasey's health, I too will always love her and never regret having her in my life.....these are the feelings breeders without ethics prey on....now that I've been "enlightened" from my experience I understand how protective the good breeders are.....I've explored other threads on this forum and found them to be very helpful as well as entertaining.....thanks for accepting my apology and giving me the benefit of your advice...i just want Kasey to have a long, happy life with as little pain as possible...Peg


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## AmbikaGR

Hi Peg :wavey:

I have been hoping you would come forward and make your story public, especially as you know it is not an isolated incident for this breeder. While we all would like to believe this breeder would actually change their ways with each added piece it becomes more and more obvious that it is not going to happen. :no:
Have you been able to get Kasey in for another opinion? Please remember if I, or any of us here, can be of any assistance please let us know. 
Are you still a member of the Cynazar Facebook group? If so have you posed your questions to her there?
Give Kasey hugs and kisses from me also! :smooch:





pegburns said:


> I never thought I'd be posting again on this thread but feel I need to update everyone here as I am Cynazar Golden owner....if you remember I was very defensive of Cynazar... I love my dog and feel she is very special but after reading through all the opinions of Cynazar on this thread, I needed to do some research myself....my dog, Kasey, had a problem at 6 months old...she started to limp sponataneously, without any injury....after x-rays, I was told she had the start of hip dysplasia on the right back hip....I've kept her weight down but in December, the limp reappeared again....after taking her to an ortho specialist, I've been told she will need surgery on both back hips at some time in the future, most likely before she is 3 years old....I was also told that her parents may have excellent hips but Kasey could still have hip problems, due to complex genetics....at this point, I was not angry and did not blame Cynazar for Kasey's problem....however, after e-mailing Jenne, her mother, Cynthia, and Cynazar on their website several times, I have not received ANY response from them....I simply asked for advise on specialists and requested copies of the clearances and medical history on the parents and after a week, no response...I'm extremely disappointed that Kasey's breeder would not be interested in the fact that at least 2 goldens from the same litter have hip problems significant enough to warrant surgery and another golden from a different litter but with the same mother also needs hip surgery at only 8 months old....when Jenne asked the Cynazar golden owners to post their opinions of Cynazar on this thread, I jumped at the chance to help Cynazar out and truly posted my honest opinion but when I asked for Cynazar's help, none was given....I don't blame Cynazar for Kasey's problems but am extremely disappointed that after paying $1800.00 for my precious Kasey, the breeder has shown no interest in her well-being.


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## pegburns

AmbikaGR said:


> Hi Peg :wavey:
> 
> I have been hoping you would come forward and make your story public, especially as you know it is not an isolated incident for this breeder. While we all would like to believe this breeder would actually change their ways with each added piece it becomes more and more obvious that it is not going to happen. :no:
> Have you been able to get Kasey in for another opinion? Please remember if I, or any of us here, can be of any assistance please let us know.
> Are you still a member of the Cynazar Facebook group? If so have you posed your questions to her there?
> Give Kasey hugs and kisses from me also! :smooch:


I have an appoinment in 2 weeks for a 2nd opinion, but I really liked and trusted the 1st specialist....it never hurts to see 2 specialists!.....I am still a member of the Cynazar facebook group but haven't posted anything negative on there yet....I would like to find out if there are other goldens having similar problems but don't know if I'll get honest answers as the site was started by Jenne....all of this could be cleared up if someone from Cynazar would answer our e-mails and provide the clearances and health history....Kasey loves all the hugs and kisses and gives them back to you and your dogs!!


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## Lilliam

wow.....truly sad....my Cassie had double hip surgery, so I know it's not easy....

I hope you understand the passion in the thread. You can see that now that you came back to update on the status of our Kasey you will find very good information and resources. The passion was never against you or Kasey.

I'm sorry you're going through this.


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## pegburns

Lilliam said:


> wow.....truly sad....my Cassie had double hip surgery, so I know it's not easy....
> 
> I hope you understand the passion in the thread. You can see that now that you came back to update on the status of our Kasey you will find very good information and resources. The passion was never against you or Kasey.
> 
> I'm sorry you're going through this.


Thanks.....maybe I can get some advice from you since you've been through this with your Cassie.....I do now understand the passion in this thread.....I'm a very trusting person (too trusting!!) and tend to believe most people but this definirely was a rude awakening for me....Thanks for all the good wishes!!


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## Lilliam

Absolutely, ask anytime.
Get good opinions from really good canine orthos - we were lucky to have been surrounded by performance owners (herding, agility and flyball) and very close to several specialists and a fantastic university program. We were blessed, in a sense. If it had to happen, we were in the perfect place to deal with it. We were in California, so I'm afraid I don't know good surgeons here. 

The surgery is expensive but not prohibitive. I would look into Care Credit, if you don't already have it. It's a really good credit card. 

Learn how to read X-rays and what a good hip should look like. Keep Kasey thin.

Don't do both surgeries at the same time, do the worst one first. Learn how to towel walk her now and start doing it now so she gets used to it.

I cried for days when I looked at my puppykates' X-rays. They were awful. But - she was perfect after recovery from her second surgery. 

Best of luck. Many, many hugs.


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## Lilliam

Oh, Cassie was a border collie, not a golden. She was the love of my life. She's the white dog in my picture below.


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## Tahnee GR

Peg,

If you have the AKC registration for your girl, her parents will be listed there. You can take their official names and enter them at Orthopedic Foundation for Animals and check for hips and elbows. OFA gives you the ability to trace back parents and, if done, siblings and half-siblings as well. 

Also, my friend had a lovely girl, Cokie, who had some of the worst hips the ortho person at the UW vet school had seen. They did the worst hip first, and were going to do the other one later but she did so well after the first surgery that they never did do the second surgery. She lived to be about 12 or 13, and did require some supplementation and management in her later years.


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## pegburns

Tahnee GR said:


> Peg,
> 
> If you have the AKC registration for your girl, her parents will be listed there. You can take their official names and enter them at Orthopedic Foundation for Animals and check for hips and elbows. OFA gives you the ability to trace back parents and, if done, siblings and half-siblings as well.
> 
> Also, my friend had a lovely girl, Cokie, who had some of the worst hips the ortho person at the UW vet school had seen. They did the worst hip first, and were going to do the other one later but she did so well after the first surgery that they never did do the second surgery. She lived to be about 12 or 13, and did require some supplementation and management in her later years.


 Thanks, I will check that out...everyone has been very helpful and the success stories are very uplifting...I know Kasey will do well....Thanks everyone.


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## pegburns

Lilliam said:


> Oh, Cassie was a border collie, not a golden. She was the love of my life. She's the white dog in my picture below.


What a beautiful dog!!


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## Ljilly28

pegburns said:


> I find this statement about answering e-mails, phone calls, and questions not exactly truthful after my and several other Cynazar golden owners experiences over the past 2 weeks....I have been in contact with several other Cynazar owners who are having health issues with their dogs (8 months old - 1 1/2 years old) who have tried to contact Cynazar with absolutely no response...it seems they respond only to positive feedback from their dog owners.....I have never even met Jenne...I purchased my golden from Cynazar in North Brunswick, N.J. and only Cynthia, the mother, was there....I don't know who really is the breeder here, but if I had showed up to purchase a puppy and an 18 year old was there to sell me the dog, I would have turned around and run....Cynthia seemed to be very intelligent and well informed and answered all my questions, so I felt comfortable purchasing the dog from her....I can only speak from my experience, but I'm wondering why Cynthia is not defending her business herself and is letting her 18 year old daughter deal with the fallout....I'm hoping that Jenne is still following this thread and will respond to my questions.


 I was in your position a few years ago, vehemently defending a breeder whose best side I had seen when unfortunately their worst side often prevails. It is a horrible feeling when a sense of betrayal & confusion replaces trust. I had to give up the dream slowly, inch by inch, and be confronted by a very sick pup before believing. It was an ordeal, and it makes me care so much about giving credit to the good work people do in breeding while letting the forum ask hard questions about best practices on the other hand.


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## pegburns

Ljilly28 said:


> I was in your position a few years ago, vehemently defending a breeder whose best side I had seen when unfortunately their worst side often prevails. It is a horrible feeling when a sense of betrayal & confusion replaces trust. I had to give up the dream slowly, inch by inch, and be confronted by a very sick pup before believing. It was an ordeal, and it makes me care so much about giving credit to the good work people do in breeding while letting the forum ask hard questions about best practices on the other hand.


I know exactly how you felt.....Even though I was defending them based on loving the Golden I bought from them, this forum and the hard questions made me think back to when I purchased the puppy and I began to question why certain information was not given to me.....then when I found out Kasey had a problem and I didn't get a timely response from anyone at Cynazar, I completely lost faith.....Coincidentally, after I posted my comments on this thread yesterday, I received an e-mail from Jenne stating she didn't respond because she was waiting for her mother, who has more experience with hip problems, to give her advice to give to me.....she also stated she already knew several dogs from the same mother had hip problems and how upset they were....It makes me mad to think it took my posting my comments here to prompt a response....I contacted the other owners with dogs with hip problems and they still have not received a response....I'm trying hard to believe that Cynazar does care but it's not working for me.


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## Pointgold

pegburns said:


> I know exactly how you felt.....Even though I was defending them based on loving the Golden I bought from them, this forum and the hard questions made me think back to when I purchased the puppy and I began to question why certain information was not given to me.....then when I found out Kasey had a problem and I didn't get a timely response from anyone at Cynazar, I completely lost faith.....Coincidentally, after I posted my comments on this thread yesterday, I received an e-mail from Jenne stating she didn't respond because she was waiting for her mother, who has more experience with hip problems, to give her advice to give to me.....she also stated she already knew several dogs from the same mother had hip problems and how upset they were....It makes me mad to think it took my posting my comments here to prompt a response....I contacted the other owners with dogs with hip problems and they still have not received a response....I'm trying hard to believe that Cynazar does care but it's not working for me.


 
This is unacceptable to me. Obviously, public comment here prompted the response...
The _mother _should contact the owners with health issues _as soon as she is notified of them. _She should not be telling the daughter what to say. This seems to be a pattern - they edit their website based on what they learn that people want to hear (the talking the talk school of dog breeding), and they have excuses for not answering questions/emails/phone calls in a timely manner (the excuse has been that they are too busy answering questions/emails/phone calls :doh, yet they are making daily updates to their website.
So many discrepancies have been posted in this thread alone. There are at least two dogs currently listed on their site for sale as having complete clearances who absolutely do not. There is the CERF issue. Now, it is revealed that there are several owners with dysplastic dogs. 
I wish this were a surprise...


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## LibertyME

Pegburns you may have already answered and apologies if I missed it..
Have your dogs xrays been submitted to OFA for review to become part of the permanent public record?
Cynazar may not choose to publish the results of their breeding animals...but there is nothing stopping you from doing so. 
You can also post factual data about your specific dog on K9data...


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## Pointgold

LibertyME said:


> Pegburns you may have already answered and apologies if I missed it..
> Have your dogs xrays been submitted to OFA for review to become part of the permanent public record?
> Cynazar may not choose to publish the results of their breeding animals...but there is nothing stopping you from doing so.
> You can also post factual data about your specific dog on K9data...


 
Absolutely. And encourage the other owners who have health issues to do so, as well. Having those FACTS out there so that people who are checking the databases to verify clearances and claims of strong genetic health histories will be able to make far more informed decisions. I always see red flags when only _some _of a breeder's dogs are in the database, particularly when so many have been produced. It makes one wonder not only if they've actually be tested, but whether if they HAVE been tested the results were such that they did not want them listed publically...


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## eeneymeanymineymo

Pointgold said:


> Absolutely. And encourage the other owners who have health issues to do so, as well. Having those FACTS out there so that people who are checking the databases to verify clearances and claims of strong genetic health histories will be able to make far more informed decisions. I always see red flags when only _some _of a breeder's dogs are in the database, particularly when so many have been produced. It makes one wonder not only if they've actually be tested, but whether if they HAVE been tested the results were such that they did not want them listed publically...


Originally Posted by LibertyME 
Pegburns you may have already answered and apologies if I missed it..
Have your dogs xrays been submitted to OFA for review to become part of the permanent public record?
Cynazar may not choose to publish the results of their breeding animals...but there is nothing stopping you from doing so. 
You can also post factual data about your specific dog on K9data...

I was wondering the same thing LibertyME and Pegburns - I do hope that Kasey's Xray's WILL BE submitted to OFA for their findings (and any other Cynazar dogs with issues) as well as being published on the database. Even if the Xrays have already been done previously, you can have them sent to OFA by your veterinarian as long as the Xrays were identified as being done on your dog on the actual films.

How old is Kasey (sorry if I missed this) but if under 2 years of age, make SURE you check the box on the OFA submittal form to release all abnormal results as well to the public because if you do not, the prelims will not be published on the OFA website. The dog has to be at least 12 months in order for OFA to release the results to the public database and that box has to be checked. This is very important!

It is so unfortunate Pegburns what you are going through with your Kasey but we are all here for you to help you through this.


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## eeneymeanymineymo

Pegburns: here is the actual hip application showing the bold box that you need to initial to release the abnormal findings (if they are) to the public database on Kasey:

http://www.offa.org/pdf/hdappbw.pdf

Reading back through some of your posts, it looks like she was 6 months when the issue happened and you mentioned surgery before the age of 3 yrs. old. so if the xrays were taken after 12 months but before 24 months, you will need to initial the box.


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## pegburns

eeneymeanymineymo said:


> Originally Posted by LibertyME
> Pegburns you may have already answered and apologies if I missed it..
> Have your dogs xrays been submitted to OFA for review to become part of the permanent public record?
> Cynazar may not choose to publish the results of their breeding animals...but there is nothing stopping you from doing so.
> You can also post factual data about your specific dog on K9data...
> 
> I was wondering the same thing LibertyME and Pegburns - I do hope that Kasey's Xray's WILL BE submitted to OFA for their findings (and any other Cynazar dogs with issues) as well as being published on the database. Even if the Xrays have already been done previously, you can have them sent to OFA by your veterinarian as long as the Xrays were identified as being done on your dog on the actual films.
> 
> How old is Kasey (sorry if I missed this) but if under 2 years of age, make SURE you check the box on the OFA submittal form to release all abnormal results as well to the public because if you do not, the prelims will not be published on the OFA website. The dog has to be at least 12 months in order for OFA to release the results to the public database and that box has to be checked. This is very important!
> 
> It is so unfortunate Pegburns what you are going through with your Kasey but we are all here for you to help you through this.


After reading these posts, I contacted my vet who agreed that this info should be reported and made public...Kasey first had a problem at 6 months and had x-rays which showed mild to moderate hip dysplasia on the right but became worse 2 months ago with limping....repeat x-rays showed significant dyplasia on the right with moderate on left, not present at 6 months.....one of the other dogs who has such significant hip dysplasia she needs surgery is only 8 months old.....Kasey will be 2 years old in April...I have a 2nd opinion scheduled with another ortho specialist and after gathering all that info, I definitely will report the findings.....I did not know any of the info you guys are telling me so I thank you for your help and advice....I have passed all this on to the other owners of the other goldens and together I think we can hold Cynazar accountable and at least adjust their breeding program.


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## Shalva

you and other owners with dogs who have health problems can also alter the k9 data record on your dogs and let people know about the health problems. 

There is no specific field for health issues but in my Bings case and other dogs I know of, we used the honorifics field to plug in the issues... so if you go to Milbrose Wild Winter in k9data.com you will see that I put congenital liver defect into the honorifics field.... you can do the same with your dog then at least that way it is in another public arena that can be checked. 

just my two cents 
s


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## Pointgold

pegburns said:


> After reading these posts, I contacted my vet who agreed that this info should be reported and made public...Kasey first had a problem at 6 months and had x-rays which showed mild to moderate hip dysplasia on the right but became worse 2 months ago with limping....repeat x-rays showed significant dyplasia on the right with moderate on left, not present at 6 months.....one of the other dogs who has such significant hip dysplasia she needs surgery is only 8 months old.....Kasey will be 2 years old in April...I have a 2nd opinion scheduled with another ortho specialist and after gathering all that info, I definitely will report the findings.....I did not know any of the info you guys are telling me so I thank you for your help and advice....I have passed all this on to the other owners of the other goldens and together I think we can hold Cynazar accountable and at least adjust their breeding program.


Peg, you and I have corresponded and I feel made a fresh start. But, I am confused... when you first came here, defending Cynazar, you already knew that Kasey was dysplastic? You said then, too, that you were shown all clearances, by Cynazar as well as by their vet. You got Kasey in June of 2009, which means that at 6 mos when diagnosed, it would have been around October of 2009. Did you tell Cynazar at that time about the dx? I'm trying to understand the timeline here...


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## pegburns

Pointgold said:


> Peg, you and I have corresponded and I feel made a fresh start. But, I am confused... when you first came here, defending Cynazar, you already knew that Kasey was dysplastic? You said then, too, that you were shown all clearances, by Cynazar as well as by their vet. You got Kasey in June of 2009, which means that at 6 mos when diagnosed, it would have been around October of 2009. Did you tell Cynazar at that time about the dx? I'm trying to understand the timeline here...


I did defend Cynazar at that time because I didn't think Kasey had "dysplasia".....I took Kasey to the vet Cynthia from Cynazar recommended, her vet, who assured me that all Cynazar dogs had clearances....Cynthia showed me papers stating that Kasey's parents had clearances and it never occurred to me that she might not be completely truthful... when Kasey started limping at 6 months old, I took her to the vet, x-rays were taken, and I was told Kasey had "hip" problems on the right but nothing keeping her weight down wouldn't control and I believed the vet.....I didn't contact Cynazar at that time because I was told it wasn't a significant problem...it wasn't till Kasey started having pain and limping again a few months ago that I took her to a specialist a friend of mine recommended.....I obtained copies of the x-rays taken at 6 months old and was told by the specialist that I was "mislead" about Kasey's diagnosis and she definitely had hip dysplasia at 6 months old....I am not a breeder or an expert and relied on the expertise and experience of the breeder and the vet she recommended....the majority of Golden lovers are just like me; ignorant of the fact that there are "good" and "bad" Golden breeders and the impact this has on the dogs and their owners.....it was after I came to this forum defending Cynazar that I found out that Kasey has hip dysplasia....I still hesitated to post any of this info on this forum until I gave Cynazar a chance to respond to me and explain...I also was told that my dog's parents could have had all their clearances and Kasey could have still developed hip dysplasia.....it wasn't till Cynazar completely ignored my e-mails and I was contacted by several other Cynazar golden owners with the same problems that I felt I had to retract my support.


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## Pointgold

pegburns said:


> I did defend Cynazar at that time because I didn't think Kasey had "dysplasia".....I took Kasey to the vet Cynthia from Cynazar recommended, her vet, who assured me that all Cynazar dogs had clearances....Cynthia showed me papers stating that Kasey's parents had clearances and it never occurred to me that she might not be completely truthful... when Kasey started limping at 6 months old, I took her to the vet, x-rays were taken, and I was told Kasey had "hip" problems on the right but nothing keeping her weight down wouldn't control and I believed the vet.....I didn't contact Cynazar at that time because I was told it wasn't a significant problem...it wasn't till Kasey started having pain and limping again a few months ago that I took her to a specialist a friend of mine recommended.....I obtained copies of the x-rays taken at 6 months old and was told by the specialist that I was "mislead" about Kasey's diagnosis and she definitely had hip dysplasia at 6 months old....I am not a breeder or an expert and relied on the expertise and experience of the breeder and the vet she recommended....the majority of Golden lovers are just like me; ignorant of the fact that there are "good" and "bad" Golden breeders and the impact this has on the dogs and their owners.....it was after I came to this forum defending Cynazar that I found out that Kasey has hip dysplasia....I still hesitated to post any of this info on this forum until I gave Cynazar a chance to respond to me and explain...I also was told that my dog's parents could have had all their clearances and Kasey could have still developed hip dysplasia.....it wasn't till Cynazar completely ignored my e-mails and I was contacted by several other Cynazar golden owners with the same problems that I felt I had to retract my support.


 
Thank you. It would seem, then, that Cynazar has a vet who is less than ethical, as well. 
This is a scenario that, unfortunately, I am all too familiar with. It is disheartening and beyond frustrating to know just how many of these "breeders" exist.


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## pegburns

Pointgold said:


> Thank you. It would seem, then, that Cynazar has a vet who is less than ethical, as well.
> This is a scenario that, unfortunately, I am all too familiar with. It is disheartening and beyond frustrating to know just how many of these "breeders" exist.


What can be done about this??....if only I knew when I purchased Kasey what I know now, I definitely would have been more careful....but then I wouldn't have Kasey, which I can't even imagine...but what happens to the dogs whose owners can't provide the care they need with these conditions?...and why do these dogs have to suffer with pain because of "bad" breeders?...I'm just so sad and REALLY want to get involved in some way to get this information out there!!!


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## Pointgold

pegburns said:


> What can be done about this??....if only I knew when I purchased Kasey what I know now, I definitely would have been more careful....but then I wouldn't have Kasey, which I can't even imagine...but what happens to the dogs whose owners can't provide the care they need with these conditions?...and why do these dogs have to suffer with pain because of "bad" breeders?...I'm just so sad and REALLY want to get involved in some way to get this information out there!!!


 
I was involved in a years long legal fight with a "breeder", and it started quite similarly. I would recommend that you first contact the OFA, and CERF, and tell them that these people are claiming publically to have clearances with them beyond the few that actually do. ie Cynazar Drop Dead Gorgeous, listed for sale and as having OFA Good, Mormal Elbows, and CERF clearances. She is only listed in the OFA database as being CA normal. There are many others. Both organizations are very good about contacting people like this and issuing a cease and decist order. Post a complaint on Rip-Off Report, and also Complaints Board. Both willl come up when the breeder's name is googled.


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## Pointgold

How nice! Cynazar Goldens is "featured breeder" on a broker's site! :doh:
Golden Retriever, Golden Retriever Puppies, Golden Retriever Puppies For Sale


http://whitegoldens.com/index.html


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## Sally's Mom

The OFA does not take kindly to false reports. Years ago, a BYB in this area falsified an OFA hip clearance. When a puppy came in sired by said dog, I looked at the paper and could instantly tell it was a forgery. Turns out she took a clearance paper from a rottweiler bitch and tried to insert her mildly dysplastic dog's information. So of course, I sent it to the OFA. They wrote her a letter and gave her 10 days to explain herself or she would not be registering dogs with OFA. I believe her subsequent OFA's went under someone else's name.


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## Pointgold

eeneymeanymineymo said:


> I had posted this before on another thread 'Pedigree Guru Needed" in December 2010 that you can send past eye exam forms in and have them listed with CERF. So anyone who claims they cannot be sent in after they have expired since it is past one year of the date of the exam is incorrect. CERF will accept them and always have. They are a registry - they are not going to turn your money away. For 10 years worth of eye clearances on a popular stud dog that the stud dog owner claims to have done (but never sends them in) will only cost them $ 15 for the first report, then $ 12 for each for the next 9 years making this a grand total of $ 123 to list the reports on CERF. Having that history listed with CERF is priceless.
> 
> _Pointgold wrote:_
> _Well, then. The Cynazar dogs should crash that CERF site soon, there will be so many of them, right???_
> 
> _It actually makes sense. If someone submits past year forms but never current ones, we'd just see that they do not test annually._
> 
> 
> LOL !!!! I am still waiting!


 
Just checked CERF. Guess what????? 
(Still none in there other than the 2 WAY outdated ones...surprise!)


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## CarolinaCasey

A local kennel, Goldenrod Kennels in Apollo, PA have aquired 'two new studs' compliments of Cynazar. Great... *thick with sarcasm*


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## Pointgold

CarolinaCasey said:


> A local kennel, Goldenrod Kennels in Apollo, PA have aquired 'two new studs' compliments of Cynazar. Great... *thick with sarcasm*


Wonderful. I wish I'd never looked.

This makes it _so _clear that the rhetoric spewed here by Cynazar is jusst fiction. In addition to not doing the clearances that they advertise that they do, they sold dogs that they knew were to be used for breeding to bitches without elbow, cardiac, or CERF clearances. And it certainly makes me question that "eye for perfection" that they are so fond of referring to - there wasn't a single dog that I saw on that site that looked to have proper structure. :no:


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## MGMF

What a shame. These breeders need to be reported. If they say they are doing it right then they would have nothing to hide.


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## Pointgold

MGMF said:


> What a shame. These breeders need to be reported. If they say they are doing it right then they would have nothing to hide.


The problem is, they aren't doing it "wrong". They are not GRCA members, so a complaint cannot be lodged with them, and as far as animal control or whatever entity is in PA, they are not neglecting or abusing the dogs. I'm sure that compared to many of the mills in PA both Cynazar and Goldenrod are STELLAR examples of breeding operations - clean facilities (at least from photos), and obviouslly well fed dogs. Period. Authorities don't care about health clearances, breed standards, etc. Puppy buyers who purchase dogs from breeders like this that end up with hip or elbow dysplasia, heart problems, and *EYE DISEASES LIKE PIGMENTARY UVEITIS *(my little "shout-out" to Cynazar and their CERF clearance claims) can only resort to legal action in small claims courts if contracts are not upheld, and unfortunately, even if they were to win, most never see the awards (cough_GoldRocks_cough).
It IS wrong, VERY wrong, to knowing breed dogs without clearances, and worse - that you KNOW are producing hereditary diseases, but not illegal. (Unless you want to spend boatloads of money and sue them for fraudulent advertising.)


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## sterregold

And given the bloodlines they are working from they should also be doing the DNA test for GR-PRA1....


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## Pointgold

sterregold said:


> And given the bloodlines they are working from they should also be doing the DNA test for GR-PRA1....


 
Gee, ya think? :doh:


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## sterregold

Yeah but if they won't pay $12 to submit a CERF form, imagine the shock of a $100 DNA test. Naw, they must have managed to import only non-carriers, even before the test was available, if they even bothered to do the research to know the problem is present....:yuck:


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## Pointgold

sterregold said:


> Yeah but if they won't pay $12 to submit a CERF form, imagine the shock of a $100 DNA test. Naw, they must have managed to import only non-carriers, even before the test was available, if they even bothered to do the research to know the problem is present....:yuck:


Oh, I'm sure that must be it. Just like they inform their buyers about Pigmentary Uveitis. Hmmm... ironic - "eye for perfection".


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## CarolinaCasey

Pointgold said:


> Wonderful. I wish I'd never looked.
> 
> This makes it _so _clear that the rhetoric spewed here by Cynazar is jusst fiction. In addition to not doing the clearances that they advertise that they do, they sold dogs that they knew were to be used for breeding to bitches without elbow, cardiac, or CERF clearances. And it certainly makes me question that "eye for perfection" that they are so fond of referring to - there wasn't a single dog that I saw on that site that looked to have proper structure. :no:


I spent an afternoon adding all of Goldenrod Golden Retriever in Apollo, PA's stock to k9data. It saddened me to see the # of breeding bitches and in turn the # of puppies they are producing from parents without proper clearances. *sigh*


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## Pointgold

CarolinaCasey said:


> I spent an afternoon adding all of Goldenrod Golden Retriever in Apollo, PA's stock to k9data. It saddened me to see the # of breeding bitches and in turn the # of puppies they are producing from parents without proper clearances. *sigh*


Yes, isn't it nice to see how much Cynazar cares about their dogs that they would sell dogs, for breeding, to them? And so much for how all their dogs are inside pets. It looks like Goldenrod has outdoor dogs, on straw.


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## sterregold

Pointgold said:


> Yes, isn't it nice to see how much Cynazar cares about their dogs that they would sell dogs, for breeding, to them? And so much for how all their dogs are inside pets. It looks like Goldenrod has outdoor dogs, on straw.


And more's the pity that they are using the same prefix as Harriet Hunt used, who produced some lovely dogs with terrific achievments.


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## Pointgold

sterregold said:


> And more's the pity that they are using the same prefix as Harriet Hunt used, who produced some lovely dogs with terrific achievments.


 
Many of today's "greeders" have only been around long enough to know the value of the internet to market whatever they are selling, and have no idea the history of the breed, or some of the great historical kennels. Harriet Hunt was using the prefix in the 50's. Paigey and Mark Elliott were "Featherquest" _long _before those who use it now (and I've seen a couple of dogs with that as their prefix - and the people likely have no idea who Rachel Paige Elliott was.) Even Goldrock was a historical prefix. 
Oh well...


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## Lilliam

This is so frightening. The *only* reason I got my adorable Maxy-Max is because I came on this site and you guys directed me where to go. I could have walked into a nightmare, simply from not being absolutely familiar with the different breeders. When there is this kind of falsification the only thing a buyer can do is to reach out to the community for information and hope to ask all the right questions.
I don't know if these breeders' practices are just deficient or downright criminal. I'm leaning towards the criminal.


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## lenon

got an adolescent frightened dog from them who does not like to interact with human and run away when human approach the dog. Guess the dog was traumatized while in the care of the breeder. Have no other explanation for this poor animal's behavior. (people ask if this is a rescued dog...)


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## GoldensGirl

lenon said:


> got an adolescent frightened dog from them who does not like to interact with human and run away when human approach the dog. Guess the dog was traumatized while in the care of the breeder. Have no other explanation for this poor animal's behavior. (people ask if this is a rescued dog...)


Welcome to the Forum. There are many people here who can make suggestions about how to help your frightened pup. That's most like to happen if you start a new thread of your own, with a title that asks for the help you want. 

I hope your pup comes to understand the loving life a Golden should have.


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## poocher

Lenon: how is your adolescent now?


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## GoldensGirl

poocher said:


> Lenon: how is your adolescent now?


Welcome to the forum.

Lenon started a new thread about the pup, where you can find the latest posts: http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...ar/99833-frightened-golden-11-months-old.html.


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## lenon

we are celebrating his first birthday. He was diagnosed with Thyroid problem and he is still frightened and avoids other adults and children. When you get an adolescent from a breeder it is clear that they can not give the attention and love in the first few months when they take care of so many puppies. We are still struggling with this purchase and figuring out where we can seek additional help. We did not do our due diligence and got screwed.


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## Ljilly28

Lenon, thank you for sticking with this golden and helping him!


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## Pointgold

Yes, thank you.

How sad, though, that you have to go through this with a breed that is supposed to be so easy to live with.


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## PuppySearch

lenon said:


> got an adolescent frightened dog from them who does not like to interact with human and run away when human approach the dog. Guess the dog was traumatized while in the care of the breeder. Have no other explanation for this poor animal's behavior. (people ask if this is a rescued dog...)


Who did you get your dog from?


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## lenon

got our dog from Cynazar. On top of it all, he has a thyroid deficency which we found within few months of getting him He was losing hair and his Thyroid count was near 0. He is on medication for the rest of his life. Whooo- did I get screwed by purchasing from Cynazar breeder? Big time. Not only on personality but also on health. Needless to say that they refused to refund the money.
Yesterday in the park I saw a similar dog (thought it was my dog's sister) who was rescued from a shelter in NJ with the same issues. The people who bought that female from a breeder in NJ gave up and put her in the shelter. Luckily she was rescued and brought to NY. I have no clue how can anyone ever trust any breeder. They are in it for the money and destroy the life of animals and owners.


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## tippykayak

lenon said:


> I have no clue how can anyone ever trust any breeder. They are in it for the money and destroy the life of animals and owners.


I was with you right until here. There are many breeders out there who are in it for love of the breed and love of the dogs. They will put right in their contracts that if you cannot care for the dog you _*must*_ return him to them so they can keep him or place him with a good family. Their dogs will never end up in shelters unless the owners break their written word. And they screen prospective owners carefully to try to prevent that kind of situation from ever happening.

Good breeders, for example, track thyroid issues in their dogs and even sometimes get thyroid clearances on their breeding animals to prevent precisely the situation you ended up in.

I'm not sure if you did it purposefully, but be careful not lump all breeders in the same category as those that breed high volumes of litters for profit, at the expense of the dogs. That would be like looking at a McDonald's and pronouncing all restaurants unhealthy.


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## Ljilly28

I've been lucky enough to work with five responsible breeders who truly go the distance and fulfill our ideals; I've also worked with a few who left me dismayed and tried to exploit the things I did not know. Big difference! Life is long, and you will have a chance to choose a puppy from a wonderful start in life if you want that good experience.


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## MGMF

tippykayak said:


> I was with you right until here. There are many breeders out there who are in it for love of the breed and love of the dogs. They will put right in their contracts that if you cannot care for the dog you _*must*_ return him to them so they can keep him or place him with a good family. Their dogs will never end up in shelters unless the owners break their written word. And they screen prospective owners carefully to try to prevent that kind of situation from ever happening.
> 
> Good breeders, for example, track thyroid issues in their dogs and even sometimes get thyroid clearances on their breeding animals to prevent precisely the situation you ended up in.
> 
> I'm not sure if you did it purposefully, but be careful not lump all breeders in the same category as those that breed high volumes of litters for profit, at the expense of the dogs. That would be like looking at a McDonald's and pronouncing all restaurants unhealthy.


 

There are many good breeders out their that care about their dogs. Work hard for proper health and temperament. They follow the GRCA code of ethics. Don't market their dogs in some fashion beyond what they are a "Golden Retriever" It is unfair to lump everyone together in the same catagory as this high volume breeder. 

Just because a breeder only has one breed doesn't make them less then a puppy mill when mass producing. Expecially when they are not thinking about what is best for their dogs and the breed.


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## lenon

sorry to offend the good breeders. I think there is some kind of philosophical or ethical disconnect between loving a dog and occasionally breed it for the purpose of continuing an excellent line and having a business with three or four time a year litter in which you can not give the human contact at the level an individual is giving to a singular dog. It is just impossible by nature to care for 8 puppies at the same time 3/4 times a year for many years. These breeders are in it for the money and the business. I shall only buy from someone who limits the number of litters they have from all of their dogs combine. Preferably someone who love dogs will give them for free.


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## Megora

> Preferably someone who love dogs will give them for free.


Huh?

You do realize the $$$$ that a responsible breeder puts into those puppies even before their parents are bred? And those first 7 or 8 weeks are a busy expensive time for those breeders. 

I don't mind giving a responsible breeder money for a puppy I know was carefully bred and carefully handled since birth.

And even my guy came from a bigger kennel where they may breed 2 females at a time, three times a year. All of those adult dogs are handled, trained, socialized, and well cared for. The puppies too are handled and fussed over, every single one of them. 

Don't lump all breeders in with the bad ones.


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## mygoldenpooches

Hello All, I know this thread has been quiet for some time but you must read this:

Cynazar Goldens - A Tragic Puppy Story

These people (if you want to call them that), I have other choice words... MUST be stopped! I have seen this place first hand. I will post more.


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## mygoldenpooches

lenon said:


> got an adolescent frightened dog from them who does not like to interact with human and run away when human approach the dog. Guess the dog was traumatized while in the care of the breeder. Have no other explanation for this poor animal's behavior. (people ask if this is a rescued dog...)



Lenon - I saw the exact type of dog in their possession, cowering up to me, very cautious and bleeding on the elbow. Sickened me. This dog acted as it has very limited contact with humans, but on the website says shes full of love. BS!!

Saw yet another golden, missing patches of fur... Out of control, full of mud, total neglect!! But yet, "they are family members" treated so well. BS!!


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## MikaTallulah

As long as they keep making money they will continue to be "greeders"


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## mygoldenpooches

Any other horror stories from these so-called (Cynazar) "breeders" lately? I feel so bad for this adolescent dogs as well as the puppies, even older "retired" dogs. Need to make more people aware of what is going on!


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## Tennyson

I go to a lot of Trenton Thunder baseball games and Chase and his kids do a wonderful job as bat boys.


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## MikaTallulah

Tennyson said:


> I go to a lot of Trenton Thunder baseball games and Chase and his kids do a wonderful job as bat boys.


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## MaddieMagoo

Go check our their website MikaTallulah and look up under the page "Baseball Goldens"...you will see them carrying bats. 

I already see about a million red flags on this website. It's SO SAD. One of these dogs looks overweight and yet it's trying to move and has some horrible conformation. Some "Champion Show Dogs" they are.  UGH!


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## mygoldenpooches

MaddieMagoo said:


> Go check our their website MikaTallulah and look up under the page "Baseball Goldens"...you will see them carrying bats.
> 
> I already see about a million red flags on this website. It's SO SAD. One of these dogs looks overweight and yet it's trying to move and has some horrible conformation. Some "Champion Show Dogs" they are.  UGH!



Such a shame what some people will do to make a buck! Unfortunately, these poor
Goldens are the ones that suffer in the long run, not to mention their owners having to try to take care of them the best they can. And the ones Cynazar still have in their possession.... heartbreaking!!


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## ilovecynazargoldens

*Cynazar Goldens are top notch!*

I have owned Goldens from this breeder for years. They are THE BEST at breeding Goldens with excellent dispositions and health!
To the people spreading lies and making slanderous comments: are you breeders too, jealous of their success in raising quality pups? It sure sounds that way to me. 
There are countless others who feel the same way I do. But dont take our word for it, go and visit this breeder for yourself. You'll be blown away by their knowledge of and love for the breed. Amazing people, amazing Goldens!


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## SheetsSM

ilovecynazargoldens said:


> I have owned Goldens from this breeder for years. They are THE BEST at breeding Goldens with excellent dispositions and health!
> To the people spreading lies and making slanderous comments: are you breeders too, jealous of their success in raising quality pups? It sure sounds that way to me.
> There are countless others who feel the same way I do. But dont take our word for it, go and visit this breeder for yourself. You'll be blown away by their knowledge of and love for the breed. Amazing people, amazing Goldens!


Seriously? They didn't accomplish clearances until they were outed on this site. Lies? Check the date of the clearances on their dogs and then look at the dates of the litters...looks like someone was breeding without clearances and is now "cleaning up" shop. Glad you got lucky with your pup...tell that to the recent poster who just lost theirs.


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## tippykayak

ilovecynazargoldens said:


> I have owned Goldens from this breeder for years. They are THE BEST at breeding Goldens with excellent dispositions and health!
> To the people spreading lies and making slanderous comments: are you breeders too, jealous of their success in raising quality pups? It sure sounds that way to me.
> There are countless others who feel the same way I do. But dont take our word for it, go and visit this breeder for yourself. You'll be blown away by their knowledge of and love for the breed. Amazing people, amazing Goldens!


Sigh. It's not slander. Even though this thread is super long, I haven't seen anything that could constitute slander on it. The facts about clearances are simply facts and can be verified independently. If clearances are incomplete, they're incomplete. No slander there, no jealousy, just folks trying to protect the health of Golden Retrievers.

Same thing with competition. They don't compete. It's not slander to point it out or to point out that the GRCA has good reasons for encouraging puppy buyers to purchase from breeders who compete. 

As far as the story of the sick puppy, unless it's made up (and are you making that accusation?), it's not slander either.

Most of us aren't breeders, and the breeders that have commented on this thread are people who actually follow the GRCA's Code of Ethics and who compete successfully in conformation, obedience, and other dog sports. Cynazar doesn't do any of that, so I hardly see what there is to be jealous of. Maybe their profit margins?


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## RUFFlife

UGH.... I am frustrated for so many reasons right now (and it is not just because I spent the past hour and a half reading these posts rather than doing work -- oops! )

Although I read this thread back in 2010 when it was first started, I bit my tongue. I was so disgusted by the bullying of an 18 year old girl and although I wanted to defend Cynazar, I did not want to get involved in the immature conversation that I saw taking place. It was my hope that Jenne would get some great pointers from those with more experience and be able to disregard the grown adults who were going out of their way to belitte her. 

Fast forward two years and my heart breaks when I see that Jenne is once again upset by the people posting on here. So I took a break from my work to pop on over to this forum in order to see what was going on. Yet again, I was frustrated by what people were saying, but still felt the same way about Cynazar (good, honest people breeding awesome dogs -- even if they are not doing absolutely everything to get involved in the golden/breeder community). And then I saw the post from pegburns and then the HORRIBLE story on cynazargoldensnj.com and I am both crushed and furious.

Clearly, many of you saw the red flags from the very beginning and even though some of you said it in a better way than others, you were right. I don't think the problem necessarily lies with Jenne, but I know she is limited by what her mother says/wants to do (her mother does not appear to be as motivated/ passionate as Jenne. I would describe her as pretty lazy based on what I saw/heard). 

When others ask where I got my dog, I tell them Cynazar and while I always say that she is a GREAT dog, I say that I would not necessarily go to the same breeder again. Unfortunately, when I went to see her that day, there was just no way that I could have gone home without her! She was just too cute. Even though I was angry when I read others' comments about this family, I was pretty turned off by what I saw when I was there. The house smelled like dog urine (the puppy was allowed to pee through the rug in the living room without anyone cleaning it up, but there was plastic underneath the rug -- ew), but I figured it was hard to avoid that smell with so many dogs. I asked to meet her parents and they came in. The male, however, was quick to lift his leg on absolutely everything in the house and Cynthia just shrugged it off. I remember thinking that although Cynazar charged the same as other breeders, they did not do as much (no unnecessary vaccinations - they believed in more "natural" methods), no microchip, etc.). They did give me paperwork, go over everything, washed her up and were very friendly. Being able to join the Facebook group to share stories and pictures was a huge bonus and made me forget about my experience that day. I guess maybe I had not done my homework.

FORTUNATELY, my dog is healthy and happy as can be, but I am now very concerned about what I might be missing. 

So thank you, Peg, for coming back to tell your story. I'm still disgusted by those of you who spoke to Jenne in such a nasty manner, but I appreciate all that has been done to get the attention of those of us with Cynazar goldens.

Now what? Should I be worried about my dog? Can we help Cynazar or do we try to keep people away from them?


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## Pointgold

I have a very difficult time mustering up any sympathy for a breeder who lies in order to profit off the reproductive organs of their dogs. 
Additionally, there is NO excuse for a male to lift his leg like that IF he in fact was properly trained (or ever allowed in the house,which my guess would be he is not).
That is a disgusting way to live, and flies in the face of all their tales (lies) about their wonderful situation. And sorry, but an 18 year old KNOWS it is a lie and is choosing to perpetuate it.


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## mygoldenpooches

ilovecynazargoldens said:


> I have owned Goldens from this breeder for years. They are THE BEST at breeding Goldens with excellent dispositions and health!
> To the people spreading lies and making slanderous comments: are you breeders too, jealous of their success in raising quality pups? It sure sounds that way to me.
> There are countless others who feel the same way I do. But dont take our word for it, go and visit this breeder for yourself. You'll be blown away by their knowledge of and love for the breed. Amazing people, amazing Goldens!


Jealous? hardly... the conditions these poor animals are living in!
Go visit? I know exactly where they are and how they are treated and being raised! POORLY!! and it is these poor creatures that are suffering... 
Blown away? YES... with the conditions!!


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## Pointgold

ilovecynazargoldens said:


> I have owned Goldens from this breeder for years. They are THE BEST at breeding Goldens with excellent dispositions and health!
> To the people spreading lies and making slanderous comments: are you breeders too, jealous of their success in raising quality pups? It sure sounds that way to me.
> There are countless others who feel the same way I do. But dont take our word for it, go and visit this breeder for yourself. You'll be blown away by their knowledge of and love for the breed. Amazing people, amazing Goldens!


 
Amusing. I AM a breeder, too. I'm pretty confident in saying that myself and the other breeders here who you might be referring to are not the _least _bit "jealous" - we _have _*proveable success in raising quality puppies. *Everything stated here about Cynazar is proveable, but it isn't success.
Nope. It isn't "jealousy" that motivates us but rather SINCERE love and a keen knowledge of the breed and a desire to maintain its integrity, unlike Cynazar.


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## ilovecynazargoldens

My experience with the breeder and my wonderful, beautiful, healthy Goldens (my vet is in agreement) will have me going back to Cynazar time and time again- despite the ridiculousness of these posts.
Enjoy your Goldens, I know I am...


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## SheetsSM

Care to post the registered names of your pup's sire/dam?


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## Sally's Mom

As usual, I am flabbergasted.... Name dog names so clearances can be verified....


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## Sally's Mom

I am a vet, and I can tell you not all are discerning...


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## AmbikaGR

ilovecynazargoldens said:


> My experience with the breeder and my wonderful, beautiful, healthy Goldens (my vet is in agreement) will have me going back to Cynazar time and time again- despite the ridiculousness of these posts.
> Enjoy your Goldens, I know I am...


Listen I understand you are happy with your dog from this breeder, I do get it. Welcome to the GRF! :wavey:
HOWEVER the posts and warnings in the posts on the preceding 40 or so pages are anything but ridiculous. :no:
So if you want to praise this breeder go ahead and do so, but please be as accurate in your praise as the others in this thread who have proven why it is/was not a good idea to get a pup from them.


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## Pointgold

ilovecynazargoldens said:


> My experience with the breeder and my wonderful, beautiful, healthy Goldens (my vet is in agreement) will have me going back to Cynazar time and time again- despite the ridiculousness of these posts.
> Enjoy your Goldens, I know I am...


Well it's good to know that dogs produced under those conditions will at least find good homes. Because it isn't their fault - they don't ask to be born.
Hopefully people coming to this forum looking for help finding a Golden puppy will learn what to consider in choosing a GOOD breeder, and how to verify clearances and other claims made.


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## Pointgold

ilovecynazargoldens said:


> My experience with the breeder and my wonderful, beautiful, healthy Goldens (my vet is in agreement) will have me going back to Cynazar time and time again- despite the ridiculousness of these posts.
> Enjoy your Goldens, I know I am...


By the way. Have you had clearances done on your dogs to be able to confirm that there is no hereditary disease? Your vet cannot make that determination without checking ie radiographing the hips and elbows, (and certifying with the OFA) a cardiology clearance, and even more importantly, ANNUAL CERF eye exams (done by and ACVO specialist). I will assume that your wonderful breeder educated you about PU (after I educated her...)
Because frankly, without them, you have no idea if the dogs are in fact "healthy". Just because you don't look for it doesn't mean its not there...


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## Ljilly28

Cynazar An Absolute Delight
Cynazar Bailey Irish Cream
Cynazar BG's Beauty
Cynazar Blizzard Conditions
Cynazar Bodalicous Goldie
Cynazar Casey Rosebud
Cynazar Dejon's Lucky Chance
Cynazar Drop Dead Gorgeous
Cynazar Goldenrod's Legend Of '58'
Cynazar Goldenrod's Lover Boy Odin
Cynazar Let It Snow
Cynazar Lots of Snow
Cynazar Lycinan Lotr Arwen
Cynazar Lycinan Treasure
Cynazar Mr. Big Time
Cynazar Pocket Pooch Plush
Cynazar Samson
Cynazar Simba
Cynazar Smoke 'N Mirrahs
Cynazar The First Snowfall
Cynazar Woodies Choice Denzel
Cynazar's All Shook Up
Cynazar's Chill Factor
Cynazar's Crystal Blue Persuasion
Cynazar's Cyndarella's Slipper
Cynazar's Dunkin' Donut
Cynazar's Golden Diamond
Cynazar's Good Humor
Cynazar's Gorgeous George
Cynazar's Grand Illusion
Cynazar's Hold On Tight
Cynazar's Ice Cream Soda
Cynazar's Ice Cream Sundae
Cynazar's Illustrious Illusion
Cynazar's Jersey Devil
Cynazar's Klondike Bar
Cynazar's Nocturne In Black And Gold
Cynazar's NYY Legend Bernie Williams
Cynazar's On The Loose
Cynazar's Out O' The Blue
Cynazar's She's So Pretty
Cynazar's Sheza Diva
Cynazar's Snow Angel
Cynazar's Snow Surprize
Cynazar's Snowhite


----------



## tippykayak

Is there a smiley that says "la la la" with its hands over its ears? We need one.


----------



## MikaTallulah

Great breeders have wait lists and don't need to bash others to get business. Cynazar Goldens is not breeder- IMO they are "greeders"- and they may have produced some healthy puppies but this should not be their crowning glory. I have been to their kennels with a co-worker and was horrified. The place was very dirty and smelly. We did not even go in because if we had I know my co-worker would have left with a puppy because they felt sorry for the dogs. 

If someone continually goes to a "greeder" it is a free country and they are allowed to let stupidity rain.


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## mygoldenpooches

MikaTallulah said:


> Great breeders have wait lists and don't need to bash others to get business. Cynazar Goldens is not breeder- IMO they are "greeders"- and they may have produced some healthy puppies but this should not be their crowning glory. I have been to their kennels with a co-worker and was horrified. The place was very dirty and smelly. We did not even go in because if we had I know my co-worker would have left with a puppy because they felt sorry for the dogs.
> 
> If someone continually goes to a "greeder" it is a free country and they are allowed to let stupidity rain.


I agree Mika! Couldn't even breathe in the place! I felt so bad for these poor, helpless dogs. They obviously had NO socialization (older dogs) and were NOT taken care of at all.... missing patches of fur, full of mud, very stinky! Just sad that these people THINK they are good breeders! SICK!


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## lenon

Now that our golden is older we have come to the sad conclusion that he must have been neglected and deprived at the hands of the Cynazar family. At his current age he finally has come out of his shell and is seeking human contact and has been re-trained. It is amazing how long it takes for a dog to recover from bad experiences. it is absoloutly clear to me that this breeder has no love for dogs and i suspect that the conditions on their farm in Penn. are horrific. I recall the visit to the place in N.J in a fealthy house and living room so by extrapulation I assume that the Penn. "farm" is as dirty if not dirtier. Foe all of you dog lovers, the only reason to get a dog from this breeder is simply to rescue an abused dog. Ours is swwet and amazing after 2 years of hard work!


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## Goldenfriend

Lenon, I'm so glad that your dog is doing well now. I also have a dog from this breeder that I got as an 8 week old puppy and we couldn't be happpier with her, but I agree that something may be lacking in the socialization of the older puppies that they keep as potential breeders. I know that the 3rd and 4th months are very important for proper socialization with other dogs (which I'm sure that they get because they have so many) and with new people which they probably at least in your dogs case did not do enough of. It's clear that they want to keep the best puppies to continue their line but they probably have gotten too big to do that themselves. One improvement they could make is to hire HS kids to come be with the dogs for a couple of hours after school each day, or openning up their farm to visitors on weekends to come see and play with the older puppies and dogs. I saw an older dog on their website for sale, but after reading your story I'm really glad that I got a puppy.


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## pegburns

Hi everyone.....I haven't posted on this thread for awhile but have kept current with the comments.....I am intimately aware of Cynazar's business practices......I feel this is one way to let others know what really happens behind the scenes at Cynazar....I am lucky enough to have personally received handwritten correspondence from Cynthia as well as e-mails to me explaining the financial difficulties they are experiencing resulting in inability to keep financially solvent....it might explain why they just had 2 litters of puppies days apart from the same sire which resulted in 20-21 puppies....with only Cynthia and her daughter Jenne to care for these puppies, I can't believe they are getting any kind of significant socialization or care....these puppies are being sold to their new families before 8 weeks of age because Jenne states they have used a new neurological stimulation technique called "Bio-Sensor"....anyone heard of it?....they also group their puppies into 3 price categories: "pet" quality, "show" quality, and "pick of litter" quality with different prices for each category.....guess who decides what quality each puppy is?!!!.....I'm guessing it depends on how much money they need to make and how sales are going......Cynazar Golden owners (including myself in the past) adore their dogs and give all the credit to Cynazar....most of them have never even investigated other breeders and don't realize that if their dog came from a different breeder, they would be standing up for that breeder as
well......I have noticed a slight change in opinion of current Cynazar owners as more and more admit that the surroundings these puppies are sold in are, to put it nicely, less than clean and to put it not so nicely, downright dirty, smelly, and disgusting with puppies and older dogs urinating and "pooping" on the floors, carpet and furniture......these breeders are not interested in breeding healthy dogs....they are only in it for the money.....I'm not sure if anyone from the Cynazar group follows this thread, but it's the only way I can get info out as I know if I posted on the Cynazar facebook site, my post would be deleted as soon as Jenne saw it......I just beg the families that are considering buying these Cynazar puppies in the next few weeks to do some research and get as much information as you can about Golden breeders before making your final decision to go with Cynazar.....I know once you get there and see those precious puppies, the dirt and smells fade to the background and you just want that puppy....you can get a Golden puppy just as adorable but with proper certifications from another REPUTABLE Golden breeder......this is not my opinion of Cynazar, this is my intimate experience with this breeder.


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## AmbikaGR

pegburns said:


> ....these puppies are being sold to their new families before 8 weeks of age because Jenne states they have used a new neurological stimulation technique called "Bio-Sensor"....anyone heard of it?...


No not really new. It has been around for decades and was developed by the US military for their canine program. It is also know as "Super Dog". MANY, MANY breeders have used it over the years. I have used it for my litters in the past.


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## Tahnee GR

Yup, I have used this method for well over a decade. It has nothing to do with when puppies can/should be released to their new homes, which IMHO is between 7-8 weeks at the earliest.


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## RUFFlife

PegBurns, thanks for posting!

My golden is also from Cynazar and while she is fortunately healthy and wonderful, I would not get another dog from them. I have been following the photos and videos of the new litters and agree with all of your comments. I was annoyed by this thread at first, defending Jenn and their goldens, but I have since realized (like many others) that they are not doing things correctly and the conditions are horrible. I don't think Jenn knows any better, but her mother sure should....

In watching the photos and videos of all of the puppies, I realize that not only do they get very little attention, but they never seem to have any contact with the mother(s). Is this normal?? I have to say that they are VERY cute though so it's easy to understand how people end up bringing these puppies home despite the environment/home they come from.

Are you on the FB page? As owners of Cynazar pups, what can we do to help them/help others looking to get a dog from Cynazar?


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## Tjr23

Hi, I'm new to this forum, and had a very sad experience with a cynazar golden. I bought a 10 month old male. One of the most stunning dogs I have ever seen. And really sweet temperament. We fell in love with how he looked, and didn't do any research. They were not able to find his shot records, wrote a contract by hand. They also had some english puppies in a wire pen. When they put them on the floor, they sort of stumbled around. We had reservations, but felt like we'd be doing a good deed getting him out of there.
We tried for 1.5 years to rehabilitate him. I ended up with a traumatized, very expensive rescue dog. He was afraid of everything. The car, the leash, going from tile to hardwood. a new pile of snow, mailboxes, street lights etc. He never adjusted to home living. He followed me upstairs without a leash, once. I'm still heartbroken. Our day care ended up adopting him. Everyone loves him, but he really only loves other dogs. He was clearly never socialized, or introduced to the world. He was supposed to be used in their breeding program, but had some issues, so they sold him. I'm happy for anyone who has had a good experience with this breeder. It just wasn't mine.


Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


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## nolefan

Tjr23 said:


> Hi, I'm new to this forum, and had a very sad experience with a cynazar golden. I bought a 10 month old male. One of the most stunning dogs I have ever seen. And really sweet temperament. We fell in love with how he looked, and didn't do any research. They were not able to find his shot records, wrote a contract by hand. They also had some english puppies in a wire pen. When they put them on the floor, they sort of stumbled around. We had reservations, but felt like we'd be doing a good deed getting him out of there.
> We tried for 1.5 years to rehabilitate him. I ended up with a traumatized, very expensive rescue dog. He was afraid of everything. The car, the leash, going from tile to hardwood. a new pile of snow, mailboxes, street lights etc. He never adjusted to home living. He followed me upstairs without a leash, once. I'm still heartbroken. Our day care ended up adopting him. Everyone loves him, but he really only loves other dogs. He was clearly never socialized, or introduced to the world. He was supposed to be used in their breeding program, but had some issues, so they sold him. I'm happy for anyone who has had a good experience with this breeder. It just wasn't mine.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Petguide.com Free App


This is a truly heartbreaking story. Thank you for taking time to share it. It makes me feel sick that these people are in business.


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## lenon

*cynzar fraud*

It is true that many of the Cynzar's dogs are unsocialized and have no clue how interact with human. The older you get them the worse they are. In our case, it took more then a year to rehabilitate the dog ( we got him at 7 months) and he will always be somewhat damaged and anxious. We feel good that at least we rescued a dog from the abusive hands of this breeder. It is a sad situation since they keep on breeding and hopefully less people are buying from them. What will happen to all of the puppies they are breeding? I wish there was a legal way to stop them?


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## pegburns

Cynazar just sold 20+ puppies from 2 litters over the past 2 weeks...it appears that many of the puppies are sick....here is the latest post from a new Cynazar puppy owner........no response from Cynazar yet and of course now the new owners are paying the vet bills!!!!

Hey fellow Diamond and Diva puppy owners,

I just wanted to write a quick note for all to see: My pup Tucker, Diva pup from 11/17/12, just had his first vet apt. Monday and it turns out he has both a parasite AND giardia and is being treated for both of them. I wanted to share this with you, particularly because I was told giardia is extremely contagious and fairly difficult to eradicate, as in it will probably require a few rounds of treatment and is highly contagious to all animals AND people! So, you all may want to have it checked out ASAP! Good luck to all and feel free to contact me if I can answer any questions you may have or you just want to share!


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## hvgoldens4

pegburns said:


> Cynazar just sold 20+ puppies from 2 litters over the past 2 weeks...it appears that many of the puppies are sick....here is the latest post from a new Cynazar puppy owner........no response from Cynazar yet and of course now the new owners are paying the vet bills!!!!
> 
> Hey fellow Diamond and Diva puppy owners,
> 
> I just wanted to write a quick note for all to see: My pup Tucker, Diva pup from 11/17/12, just had his first vet apt. Monday and it turns out he has both a parasite AND giardia and is being treated for both of them. I wanted to share this with you, particularly because I was told giardia is extremely contagious and fairly difficult to eradicate, as in it will probably require a few rounds of treatment and is highly contagious to all animals AND people! So, you all may want to have it checked out ASAP! Good luck to all and feel free to contact me if I can answer any questions you may have or you just want to share!


I do not want to make light any of the issues that have happened and do happen with the Cynazar puppies. However, it is not at all uncommon for puppies to have parasites(worms, coccidia or giardia) All are pretty normal occurances with puppies. Should the puppies have been checked before they left the premises so they could have been treated? Absolutely. However, a puppy having parasites in and of itself does not make someone a bad breeder. In certain parts of the country giardia is VERY common and where there is standing water, it can also happen. So, periods of time like late fall, early winter when the ground is not frozen and there is a lot of standing water, this can be an issue. It is very common on both coasts. Many breeders treat litters of puppies prophylactically for these things and yes, these things can make puppies rather sick because they won't want to eat, etc.

All of these things are easily treated though with the proper protocols so these issues would be the least of the new owners worries.


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## pegburns

It's not about the parasites....it's about the fact that Jenne (Cynazar) has posted on EVERY post the new owners post but over the past 3 days has been very obviously absent on the Cynazar facebook site....not any advice, guidance, reassurance that the puppies will be fine...NOTHING.....not one comment...that has been my exact experience with them.....ask when the next litter will be available, where to send the deposit, etc. and a response from Jenne is immediate.....tell them that there is a problem....silence....they just don't care once they get the money......again, this is not my opinion, it's what I have personnaly experienced with Cynazar.


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## RUFFlife

I have to echo Peggy's comments here. Although giardia might be common, I don't think that's the biggest issue here. I immediately thought about this forum as well because I now am curious about what can be to done to get them either shut down or to encourage them to change their ways. The horror stories keep coming and despite Jenne's best efforts, I am not buying the BS. Is there anything that can be done??

Their home is incredibly dirty. I personally witnessed male dogs (adults) coming inside and lifting their legs on everything in sight. Having only seen a small area of their home, I can only imagine that the environment contributed to the parasites and giardia. 

While I was incredibly jealous of all the families bringing home adorable new puppies, I was worried that they would have to deal with a lot of what other owners have dealt with. Fortunately, my golden has never had any problems, but the more time goes by, the more I hear from others. This really needs to stop.


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## hvgoldens4

If you read my post, I said I did not want to make light of the issues that go on with Cynazar puppies. I also said that these issues would be the least of the new owners worries and I said that because of the other people who have come on the forum and told their stories about Cynazar puppies.

However, her original post was about the fact that the puppies had giardia and parasites. As a long time breeder myself, I do not want anyone to ever equate the fact that a puppy having worms means that the person is a bad breeder. Puppies do have worms. It is a fact of life. Proper protocols should be followed to rid the puppy of any parasite before they leave for their new homes and stool samples should be checked. However, giardia is very hard to pick up on a stool sample and some parasites are opportunistic in the fact that they only rear their ugly heads at times of stress, like when a puppy leaves for its new home. So, a puppy may have a parasite and that is also why your vet will continue on a regimen to make sure the puppy stays worm free. 

Education is key and that is why places like the forum are important. Unfortunately, there will always be people who do not do their homework and will get a puppy from a place like this. There are also people who a reputable breeder will not sell a puppy to and so they will go to a breeder like this. If the conditions are unsanitary and clearances are not in order, and these things have been discussed ad nausem in this thread with every excuse given by Jenne, then it is up to the buyer not to purchase their puppy from them. They are not rescueing that dog. They are supporting Cynazar and their breeding program by purchasing puppies from them. The best way to stop them is to have people stop purchasing puppies from them. If they cannot sell the puppies they produce, they will stop producing them.


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## SRUTH

I am the new Cynazar puppy owner that wrote post printed by PegBurns. The issue was NOT one of parasites or giardia, it was the totally inflammatory and illicit way in which both Jenne and mother Cynthia of Cynazar handled it! I was chastised, repeatedly called and emailed by them both for having made other owners aware of this! They called me a liar, practically, and accused me of just wanting to set fire in a movie house! never ONCE did either of these alleged "experienced and loving" breeders inquire as to the health and well being of my puppy. Peg is correct in all she is sharing, but I will go one step further by stating that I firmy believe now, which I became aware of only recently, that CYNAZAR GOLDENS in NJ or PA are nothing more than a glorified golden puppy mill!! They can't even keep track of how many litters they have going, adamantly refuse to let anyone visit premises in PA, which is where all the dogs are kept. I shiver at the thought! Also found out they have NO breeder license number in any state! Also, there are no listings in county in PA, where "farm" is, of any inspections or inspection papers for breeders!! They totally fly under the radar, charge outrageous money for their puppies, and care about NOTHING except making money! I would NEVER get another dog from them, NEVER recommend them to anyone, and can only wish and hope there is a way, somehow, sometime, that these horrible people who masquerade around as "breeders" are SHUT DOWN!!


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## solinvictus

Look up the local/county laws in regards to kennels. Those that have complaints on the care of the dogs need to let the State of Pennsylvania know that there is a kennel that may not be regulated and should be. One voice or letter may not be enough but if enough of those that recieve their pups can contribute it may at least start an investigation.

PDA Program Detail - PA Dog Licensing 
*Contact*

*Dog Law Enforcement Office*
(717) 787-3062

[Email a Question]


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## SLD30

Find it very unnerving that there was no reply to this question!


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## hvgoldens4

SLD30 said:


> Find it very unnerving that there was no reply to this question!


What question?? There are pages and pages of information about this kennel and people still buy puppies from them.


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## AmbikaGR

SLD30 said:


> Find it very unnerving that there was no reply to this question!



Which question would that be? There are quite a few in these 40+ pages.


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## MikaTallulah

solinvictus said:


> Look up the local/county laws in regards to kennels. Those that have complaints on the care of the dogs need to let the State of Pennsylvania know that there is a kennel that may not be regulated and should be. One voice or letter may not be enough but if enough of those that recieve their pups can contribute it may at least start an investigation.
> 
> PDA Program Detail - PA Dog Licensing
> *Contact*
> 
> *Dog Law Enforcement Office*
> (717) 787-3062
> 
> [Email a Question]


I wish them luck. The Amish/Mennonites/Millers/Greeders keep churning outing pups. The authorities shut down one and many more pop up.


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## SLD30

*Reputation of Cynazar*



hvgoldens4 said:


> What question?? There are pages and pages of information about this kennel and people still buy puppies from them.


They were asked about their staff who helps them with all their dog's. How much help do they have? Jenne never replied. Forgive my reply. That was my first post and I was having trouble posting to that thread. lol :wavey:


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## hvgoldens4

SLD30 said:


> They were asked about their staff who helps them with all their dog's. How much help do they have? Jenne never replied. Forgive my reply. That was my first post and I was having trouble posting to that thread. lol :wavey:


I don't think you will ever get an answer to that question. Do they need "staff" other than their family-absolutely, with the number of dogs they have. Are they going to pay people to do that?? No, I don't think so........


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## SLD30

*Meaning to this question*



SLD30 said:


> Find it very unnerving that there was no reply to this question!


I'm new and still having problems replying to threads. Someone ask Jenne how many staff members she has helping with the care of ALL the dogs they have. Jenne NEVER replied, which didn't surprise me at all. BTW, they ARE NOT A LICENSED KENNEL!!:doh:


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## solinvictus

"BTW, they ARE NOT A LICENSED KENNEL!!:doh:"

They can still be reported if there are problems.


PDA Program Detail - PA Dog Licensing 

*What are Pennsylvania's Dog Laws?*

You must have a current kennel license if you operate a facility that keeps, harbors, boards, shelters, sells, gives away or transfers a total of 26 or more dogs in any one calendar year.

*Contact*

*Dog Law Enforcement Office*
(717) 787-3062


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## hvgoldens4

SLD30 said:


> I'm new and still having problems replying to threads. Someone ask Jenne how many staff members she has helping with the care of ALL the dogs they have. Jenne NEVER replied, which didn't surprise me at all. BTW, they ARE NOT A LICENSED KENNEL!!:doh:



Not being a licensed kennel will not get them shut down. They will then just have to apply for a kennel license. There is a lot of information on the regulations for "kennels" that another posted listed. However, since they have 2 places in two different states where the dogs are kept, it could be rather hard to know if they would need a kennel license in the state of PA.

For example, if they are housing the dogs in PA, but there are less than 26 of them and they move the girls when they are pregnant to NJ, they would then be under NJ laws and not PA laws. Because puppies would not be being born in PA or sold from that premises, they also would not need to follow PA kennel licensing laws.

I am not saying this is the case....I am just going by information that has already been posted in the thread about them having two different locations in two different states.

Just because they are not licensed, does not neccessarily in and of itself mean that they are breaking any laws.

If a person who has a puppy from them, has an issue with the dog they purchased, they should check the state of purchases puppy lemon laws and file a complaint that way. Even if nothing is done on one particular complaint, having a long history/multiple complaints will begin to raise red flags.


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## SLD30

I believe we talked on the phone not long after you got your pup. I'm so sorry it never worked out. It horrifies me what they have been getting away with all these years! Hopefully something will be done soon!


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## hvgoldens4

SLD30 said:


> I believe we talked on the phone not long after you got your pup. I'm so sorry it never worked out. It horrifies me what they have been getting away with all these years! Hopefully something will be done soon!



The crux of the problem is that people are still buying puppies from these people. People can be horrified, upset, disgusted or any other adjectives that they would like to be but yet, people are still buying the puppies. 

The bottom line is that if people did NOT buy the puppies, they would not breed. Pretty simple law of supply and demand.

There is really no reason that someone should get a puppy from these people and not know what is going on there. If you do a google search on Cynazar goldens, the first thing that comes up is their website. The second thing, is this VERY long thread that describes in great detail the issues with Cynazar puppies and under that, there is even more information about other cases where people have bought puppies from them and had isssues.

So, are you going to tell me that getting a new puppy is not worth less than 10 minutes of your time to do an internet search on the breeder?? People do more research on what kind of washing machine or what kind of car to buy than they do when they are bringing another living, breathing creature into their home. 

What about all the people who go to their home and see the conditions and say it is filthy and dogs are going to the bathroom everywhere and then purchase the puppy any way??? I myself am stunned that people would purchase a puppy from such conditions. People have to know that when they purchase a puppy from these people-they are giving them money and supporting their breeding practices. They are not "rescuing" that puppy. They are telling Cynazar that they need more puppies to meet the demand. Rescuing a dog is where you go to a golden rescue or a shelter and take home an animal-rescue does not involve purchasing a puppy from a breeder.


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## lenon

*Cynazae shut down?*

Is it possible that Cynazar have changed their operation? it seems like nothing happens on their web. No new puppies for sale. Were they finally closed down


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## MikaTallulah

lenon said:


> Is it possible that Cynazar have changed their operation? it seems like nothing happens on their web. No new puppies for sale. Were they finally closed down


I doubt it! Websites are a lot of work to keep up to date especially if you are just out for the money!


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## Ivan30p

diggingforgoldens said:


> I'm looking for a reputable breeder and hadn't seen anything on the forums yet discussing cynazar.
> 
> this is their website:
> Cynazar Home
> 
> I was wondering if anyone has bought a golden from them or heard anything about their dogs?


I purchased a golden retriever. A "Pedigree" with papers. She's going to be 9 yrs old this coming feb. Loooooong story short, she has LVH, CHF, high BP and Cancer. She was obviously breed when she shouldn't have been. My twins are going to be 6 in Feb and will face dealing with the death of their best friend. Thanks to this unethical breeder.


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## Prism Goldens

I'm sorry for your loss of a friend to your twins, your family member ...and what for surely a long and difficult road to go down.


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