# Fear of the Jumps; Again



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

How old is he?? I think right around 12-14 months they go thru a second fear stage, when they are afraid of the strangest things! Hopefully he'll just forget he was even afraid of it in no time at all.
When the Tito monster was about 13 months old, he suddenly decided to be terrified of the teeter. I had never seen him afraid of anything, and he previously loved the teeter. wouldn't even set one paw on it.
The next week he ran right up it again.
No idea what was up with that, but someone told me they go thru a weird fearful thing right about that age.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

How old is Augie and what height was the jump?
When he balks at a jump in the past was it the bar also? 
What kind of warm-up do you do with him immediately prior to starting the course at class?


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Oh, I missed this the first time around.
There's your answer. Augie saw you write the check for the trial entry and mail it in.
Happens every time! 



Augie's Mom said:


> Augie's afraid of the jumps again. Of course this would happen right before a two day trial. :doh: If only this would have happened next week.


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## Augie's Mom (Sep 28, 2007)

Augie just turned two last month and his jump height is 16", but he won't even jump (step over) it at the lowest height which is 4". The bar jump seems to be what starts the fear behavior, then it generalizes to the others.

We usually warm up by doing a few heeling patterns and various rally exercises
interspersed with playing tug and treats.

Thanks everyone for helping brainstorm this, it is just so perplexing.


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

I know a lab that went through a similar fear - but in her case she was VERY soft and a little lazy and there was a clear incident that created the problem - the ring gates fell down around her while she was jumping (midair), fell on the jump and crashed everything. 

I don't think it's a fear stage in your case. So he either doesn't understand the exercise, he isn't comfortable jumping (you say you've ruled out physical issues - and vision too with a vet?) or he's reacting to something else. 

You need to go back to a bar on the ground - back way way up...click him for looking at the bar - toss the treat BEHIND him so he has to turn around and come back to you. He looks at it again - click and toss (OK if he's on leash btw - but make sure he's able to get the treat without getting a leash pop. After a few of these guage how he's feeling about the jump. See if you can then catch him looking at the jump, click and toss the cookie 2" or so on the other side of the bar (so he has to put his neck over the bar), repeat this shaping process until he is stepping over the bar with his front feet - then toss the treat further so he goes over. If you can get this in one session, put the bar away. Keep the bar on the ground while you start adding motion. Work other exercises separately and even when he's more confident you need to reward the jump EVERYTIME for a while. In the lab's case it was several weeks before she was confidently going over a bar on the ground with his mom running along side...

I'd also scratch the show this weekend. Letting him understand that the jump is "optional" in a ring situation is a really bad plan. Never let a dog practice something incorrectly when you can't fix it - and you know it's a problem. If you are the type of person who can go in there and NOT ask him to take the jump maybe you could still go - but honestly - you don't want to run him by too many jumps in competition even if you aren't asking for it...

Erica


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## Augie's Mom (Sep 28, 2007)

Augie just passed his eye (normal), hip(good) and elbow(normal) clearances and he hasn't hurt himself. He knows how to jump, he's just afraid to do it. He also takes Agility classes and doesn't have the issue in Agility. 

He never gets yelled at if he doesn't do something right, we just try again. I try to ignore the bad and celebrate the good. 

We are going back to square one and desensitize the jumps, but I would really like to find what causes his jump fear to re-surface every few months. I'm hoping he will grow out of this.

Please keep the ideas coming, all ideas are helpful.

Thanks.


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## bizzy (Mar 30, 2007)

Another thing you could try is to put a jump up in your house where he has to jump it all the time. Make it a part of every day life. I did this more to build condtioning than for fear. Put boards and such up in doorways that he goes thur all the time.

Oh yes sending in the entry did "break" things


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

Augie's Mom said:


> Augie just passed his eye (normal), hip(good) and elbow(normal) clearances and he hasn't hurt himself. He knows how to jump, he's just afraid to do it. He also takes Agility classes and doesn't have the issue in Agility.
> .


The agility thing is interesting...he jumps in agility but not in rally? What if you put an agility looking jump out and heel up to it and send him over. What is the visual difference between your obedience bar jump and your agility jumps? Straight stripes vs spiral stripes? If he's doing agility he's seen a panel jump (high jump) - is your problem with just the bar jump or the high jump too? Broad jump you said was (is) fine? Do you notice a difference with winged jumps vs non-wing jumps? If you put a wing on the other side of a bar jump (change the picture) does his confidence come back?

You could make a jump chute for him too with the bar on the ground. An ex-pen on either side of the jump set at 4 inches - ask someone to restrain him, you RUNto the other side (over the jump) with his favorite toy (or liver, hamburger, spam - whatever something yummy) and call him - his choice to go over the jump. PARTY!!!

What about putting a bar jump at 24" (or whatever he jumps in agility) - is he looking and not seeing a bar where he expects it to and therefore he's worried about hitting what he can't see?

What about replacing the bar on the obedience jump with an agility bar? Same thing? Take the jump bar totally out of the equation - will he run through a set of obedience jump uprights? What about uprights with a leash serving as a ground pole?

I think you need to do some investigation as to what he's reacting to...process of elimination...

Erica


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

I agree it is odd that he has no issue with the bar jump in agility but he at times does so in rally. Is the rally class you are taking indoors? Are the walls mirrorred? Get down to his level and look at and past the jump, what is it he is seeing? I know in my obedience class some dogs have issues with jumps when they are along a mirror wall. 
Just some random thoughts.


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

It seems like doing the rally jump would be pretty stressful/confusing for an agility dog because he's heeling up to it and then has to come right back to heel after he's done. Maybe go back to the bar on the ground and then gradually raise it up (always heeling up to it and coming back to heel afterwards) with a different word than you use for agility and everything, and making a really really big deal out of it. If I were an agility dog I wouldn't be a fan of the rally version of jumping at all either, so you have to make it extra exciting for him.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

if you can, try putting 2 bars up and see if that helps.


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## MurphyTeller (Sep 28, 2008)

katieanddusty said:


> It seems like doing the rally jump would be pretty stressful/confusing for an agility dog because he's heeling up to it and then has to come right back to heel after he's done.


In my experience the rally jump hasn't been an issue for agility dogs - if anything it's getting them back after the jump or the green dogs that see you heading towards a jump (shoulders) and leave to take that jump before you send them...

E


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## Augie's Mom (Sep 28, 2007)

After speaking with his breeder I'm beginnng to think it's a family trait though she didn't think it was an inherited thing. His father, his brother and his sister from a repeat breeding all have confidence issues. What do the breeders out there think?

While I know how to retrain the jumps, having to do it every few months is goofy.

Any thoughts on if this is a personality trait issue, can it be permanently fixed? I'm already a very positive style trainer so do I need to somehow adjust my training practices?

Thanks for the advice, it is all appreciated.


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## gabbys mom (Apr 23, 2008)

When Gabs consistently needs help w/ an issue or I have to consistently go back to an issue, I tend to realize that there were gaps/holes in the way that I initially taught it (or that she simply didn't understand). My instinct is that if you are having to go back to this issue multiple times, every couple of months that you missed a step in training it initially somewhere (or he missed a step and you didn't realize it) and that the "patches" temporarily fixed but didn't completely.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Augie's Mom said:


> After speaking with his breeder I'm beginnng to think it's a family trait though she didn't think it was an inherited thing. His father, his brother and his sister from a repeat breeding all have confidence issues. What do the breeders out there think?
> 
> While I know how to retrain the jumps, having to do it every few months is goofy.
> 
> ...


I definetely believe it can be an inherited thing. But I do think it can be permanently fixed, the jumping issue that is not really the confidence issue. I am not one of the ALL positive trainers but in this case I truly believe that is the way to go. At this time I would not use pressure to get him to do it as it will probably make matters worse. When he has an issue just say something like "Oops, let's try that again you silly dog" in a very up tone. 
My Keeper was like this with the weave poles, well with many things really. She would frett anytime I would redo an exercise because heaven forbid it meant she made a mistake. And she would melt when she made a mistake. A trainer friend showed me how just taking a ho-hum type of attitude when she made a mistake was the best thing in the world for her. It truly worked and it is tool I used right from day one with her daughter Lucy, who although not anywhere as soft as her mom, at times could display this same issue.
Hope it works as well for you.


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## Augie's Mom (Sep 28, 2007)

Thank you all for your advice. 

We did go to agility class today, and while he initially balked at the bar jump after he got over the first one he didn't have an issue with the other jumps. The only jump he wouldn't take was the triple bar jump; which he has taken in the past. The good thing is that agility class made him happy happy happy and we did alot of jumps. 

So I guess the good thing is that this is exactly what has happened before so I know I can retrain the jumps. And since it seems I have a delicate flower I will also try to boost his overall confidence. I've been reading "Control Unleashed" and I think I will incorporate some of those principles into his training and see if it helps.

Thank you all again for your support. I was feeling really bad that my poor baby was so scared and not knowing how to fix it.


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