# Two Questions for Field Training



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

There are, sadly, some trainers who really go too far with physical corrections. There is a huge difference between a tap under the chin to remind a dog to hold something, and a swat in the face. 
While I am not a fan of purely positive training (not that there's any such thing but I don't want this thread shut down so let's stay clear of that) in the field, I also am not a fan of overly physical corrections. IMHO, if one has to resort to *violence* to teach a dog, one needs to check one's training methods.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

quick question....you said that Josie likes to retrieve. 
Sorry if you put this in another thread and I missed it, but have you tried having a second bumper (or bird) in your hand and when she picks up the first one, start twirling it, acting happy, etc. so she knows another retrieve is coming?
Some dogs are possessive of the bumper or bird, and avoid coming back because they know you are just going to take their prize away from them. Perhaps if she sees she will get an immediate chance at another retrieve, her attitude will improve on the return.


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## abradshaw71 (Jan 13, 2014)

hotel4dogs said:


> quick question....you said that Josie likes to retrieve.
> Sorry if you put this in another thread and I missed it, but have you tried having a second bumper (or bird) in your hand and when she picks up the first one, start twirling it, acting happy, etc. so she knows another retrieve is coming?
> Some dogs are possessive of the bumper or bird, and avoid coming back because they know you are just going to take their prize away from them. Perhaps if she sees she will get an immediate chance at another retrieve, her attitude will improve on the return.


I have not tried that, although I used to do that with her tennis balls so that she would come back to me.  Thank you. That is a great suggestion. As soon as she wakes up from her nap, we are heading outside. Way too nice here in Michigan to be spending time inside. 

As for your other post, I appreciate the tapping of the chin method. I've noticed that others have talked about ear pinches, as well, so that may be something I can use with her. I can't imagine anyone ever smacking Josie in the nose/face. While it may work for some dogs and may be acceptable for some, it wouldn't work for her.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Hmm just a few comments. As far as the videos -- without seeing them, knowing the trainer and knowing the dog it is very difficult to say whether the corrections were appropriate or not. 
Dogs take a LOT of repetitions for behaviors to change. One training session will do very little in the long haul. It sounds like Josie just needs a lot of basic obedience. I would practice this separately from any retrieving. If you only practice your obedience in the context of retrieving, it's the chase/prey drive that is making the dog move and be compliant, you take that away and you're back to square one. For field work I tend to not use food, only verbal praise and petting, and I drill SIT (stay), here and heel. This is completely separate and looks nothing like competition obedience. The dog complies because he is made to with the leash, stick or collar and he wants to comply for my praise and to alleviate pressure should that be necessary. It creates a "you are the coach, I am the player" mentality in the dog. To be successful dogs need both a sense of "want to" and "have to." My guess at the moment is that Josie has a little bit of want to, and not very much have to. 
I would really really encourage you to find a professional or successful amateur to take lessons from. Best of luck!


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## abradshaw71 (Jan 13, 2014)

K9-Design said:


> Hmm just a few comments. As far as the videos -- without seeing them, knowing the trainer and knowing the dog it is very difficult to say whether the corrections were appropriate or not.
> Dogs take a LOT of repetitions for behaviors to change. One training session will do very little in the long haul. It sounds like Josie just needs a lot of basic obedience. I would practice this separately from any retrieving. If you only practice your obedience in the context of retrieving, it's the chase/prey drive that is making the dog move and be compliant, you take that away and you're back to square one. For field work I tend to not use food, only verbal praise and petting, and I drill SIT (stay), here and heel. This is completely separate and looks nothing like competition obedience. The dog complies because he is made to with the leash, stick or collar and he wants to comply for my praise and to alleviate pressure should that be necessary. It creates a "you are the coach, I am the player" mentality in the dog. To be successful dogs need both a sense of "want to" and "have to." My guess at the moment is that Josie has a little bit of want to, and not very much have to.
> I would really really encourage you to find a professional or successful amateur to take lessons from. Best of luck!


Josie and I are going back to obedience class in one week and we are meeting with a trainer on the 19th. You are correct on your guess.  The "want to" increases when she is near water. There is no stopping her. It decreases significantly on land. You're exactly right on the "have to". Thank you for your advice. I was combining the obedience with the retrieving, so it makes sense they need to be separate.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

One small thing to add too... and this goes into retrieves for obedience and not necessarily to the extent of field work, but starting retrieves with an adult dog who has already learned some bad habits with retrieving (broken retrieve), it will be an uphill climb to RE-TRAIN the retrieves to your dog so she knows when you use formal commands and put her in a formal position for a retrieve, she must bring the item back to you. And this to the extent that if you can't reinforce the retrieve - don't use your formal commands and set her up for fail.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

You'll find a wide variety of approaches to field training. A lot of it I'm not comfortable with, which is one reason I'm more likely to be training on my own than with a group. Around here there's a lot of the Good Ol' Boy and his huntin' dawg mentality. My very limited experience has shown that the successful pros are usually better than the macho weekend hunting guy.

The one other golden in the junior test yesterday (Topbrass) had a pro. I have no idea what methods he uses for training, but just watching him interact with the dog going to and from the line, if I ever felt like I wanted to send a dog away he's one I'd look into.


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## coaraujo (Nov 2, 2012)

If Josie is really wild about retrieving and she starts to learn that coming back to you = more retrieving the recall training should start improving with leaps and bounds. With a dog that loves to retrieve the reward is the retrieve, there's nothing better than another bird. When we were having issues with Bernie's recall, whether it was slow or non existent, I'd just jog out there take away the bumper and put him in the crate. I'd take out Oliver and train Oliver. Then we'd take out Bernie again. It didn't take long for him to pick up on the fact that coming back meant more birds and more fun and that dilly dallying, etc meant game over. Lots of praise and tug for coming back, then another bumper thrown. I'm pretty sure it took one training session to fix our recall issue. We also do the swinging a bumper to get him more amped to come back. We have him on a long line, but I didn't find dragging him in all that effective. Its good to keep him from running off, but if I had to do more work reeling him in than he did coming to me - back in the crate it was. We do not use ecollars or aversives so recall will be our biggest challenge with field work. Time out and not being able to work is our biggest punishment. Definitely recommend finding a trainer/group!


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## goldlover68 (Jun 17, 2013)

It is a myth that training a field dog requires pain to be inflicted on the dog. As mentioned already, poor trainer may do this, and it will make an 'obedient' dog. But lots of damage is done in enthusiasm, drive, etc. when this form of pressure is used. NOt to mention is is just wrong! 

That being said, if you really want a well trained Field Dog, a certain amount of pressure is necessary. Let me try and expand...

I relate this to when I was growing up and learning to play competative sports or when my Dad taught me to have a good work ethic. I still remember him saying, "anything worth doing is worth doing well!" All of these required what I thought at the time was "pain". Working until I could not do any more. Running until it "hurt"! 

That is what most field trainers do with the ecollar, Force Fetch, Pinch Collars, etc. You make the dog uncomfortable when they do not do what the know they should do, but not to the point of pain. I use the healing stick to train my dog to heal. If you wave it in front of a dog that is walking in forward of you, instead of healing properly, they back off like you hit them, they instinctively understand. You don't need to hit them, they just know you mean business. Same with the collars, when they feel that light tickle, enough to get them to look back, they know they must do the command.....they very quickly learn that when they do it, they get love, when they don't that darn funny feeling comes on and it won't stop till they do what they know they should do. Only if they bolt out in the street or chasing a deer while hunting would I consider turning up the power, only to save the dog from emanate danger. 

Training for field is a slow steady process, done by a trainer or owner who are following a specific program, step, by step. You always go back if the dog fails the next step, or even if they have trouble after they are trained. Patients, is required...but the end result is an amazing happy dog! Who can be you companion in the field, safely....


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## abradshaw71 (Jan 13, 2014)

Thanks everyone! I just spent some time with Josie working on obedience. She's doing great and it's nice to know that she has retained quite a bit. She is good at down, sit, and stay, but there is always room for improvement there. 

After we were done working on obedience, we played for a bit and then worked on retrieving with two bumpers this time. Bingo! She came back every time with her retrieve waiting for the second one to be thrown. We played again after we were done and now Josie is all tuckered out.  Slow and steady. I just wish this amazing weather we are having in Michigan would stay like this, but anticipating rain for tomorrow. 

I'm eagerly anticipating our obedience class starting in a week and then meeting with the trainer on the 19th. He came highly recommended from Maxs Mom!


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

One thought, don't tire her out on retrieves. Throw 4 or 5 bumpers and call it a day. Leave her wanting more. She'll look forward to the bumpers next time she sees them. After obedience class, throw a couple of bumpers for a reward. She'll be so happy. The retrieve is the reward.


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## abradshaw71 (Jan 13, 2014)

Alaska7133 said:


> One thought, don't tire her out on retrieves. Throw 4 or 5 bumpers and call it a day. Leave her wanting more. She'll look forward to the bumpers next time she sees them. After obedience class, throw a couple of bumpers for a reward. She'll be so happy. The retrieve is the reward.


The obedience class ends at 9 pm. Is it appropriate to take bumpers with me to class? Otherwise, it's dark out by the time we're done and get home. Unlike Alaska in the summer.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Gosh I didn't think about it being that late. I'd skip it then. Yes there is nothing like going for a hike with your dogs at 10 pm in the summer.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

coaraujo said:


> *We do not use ecollars or aversives so recall will be our biggest challenge with field work.*


Hmmmmm....don't bet on it.....


> Time out and not being able to work is our biggest punishment.


As you move along ---- this will only get you so far...



> Definitely recommend finding a trainer/group!


Absolutely!!!!


---Edit:

OK at the risk of being called a big old meanie let me clarify.
With an initial goal of passing a Junior Hunter test... Rarely do Junior dogs fail because they will not come back to their handler. Once the dog understands the "game" (which will take 2-10 sessions of marks with gunners) they need little more motivation to return to the handler because they know another retrieve is coming. Using gunners rather than hand throwing bumpers yourself will accentuate this and the dog will pick up on it even quicker.
Most Junior dogs fail because of lack of perseverance (giving up hunting, or refusing to go all the way to the area of the fall, typically in water) or not delivering the bird to hand. 
The reason I continue to use a modern force fetch based retriever training program and encourage others to do so is it has built-in steps to address these things (and more, obviously) in an elegant, efficient, concise and logical way. 
If a recall is the biggest problem you bump into on your way to Junior -- consider yourself very lucky!!!!


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