# Rant on breeders



## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

Bumping up


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## gr56 (May 11, 2019)

Oh man I’m watching this thread


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I apologize for all the breeders doing this to you, and take this with a less-excuse bent than just what it is.... as organized as some of us are, this is a difficult time. We are used to doing things just as we always have, and take the time from name-taking or deposit or whatever breeder does til pups are born to get to know better. All of a sudden there are 50 inquiries a day requiring answers because if you don't answer immediately people complain loudly... and it's pretty easy to start to hate the email program. 
It's also easy to get people mixed up, more so if you have the same first name as someone else waiting. 
I admit I have stopped sending my long informational to everyone solely because it appears recipients cannot read and then imagine they can start asking me to send them my rhythm or list method or whatever same day, and expect ME to keep up with them. Nope. 
I have even taken a couple days and not answered ANY emails but we all know what that leads to- lots of deleting. 
As to the FB posts- that is more social time to most people I think. I do imagine the breeder who offered up on her page without asking folks waiting if they'd like the pup just didn't think of it.. that, or she had more time and money invested in him and assumed perhaps wrongly that people would feel upcharged.


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## gr56 (May 11, 2019)

Ok so I get your frustrated
Understand a dam should only breed 2 a year? And a breeder may decide even longer between births. Also a average litter size is around 8 and could sadley even result in 1 puppy or on the opposite side 15 but let’s stick with 8 . So every year between these 3 breeders only 48 people get a golden ticket to take home a puppy

Your not dealing with puppy mills either and these breeders as stated could easily have 50 people on their heals?? Just as you try to vet breeders, they also have to vet owners. you don’t get to just pull a number and wait like at the deli. Even without covid people wait years.
Like I said I understand your frustrated and just complaining. However it comes off entitled and condescending.
idk if your really trying to understand the world of a breeder to ease your frustrations?it sounds like you haven’t even gotten to the point of putting down a deposit and moneys not even envolved at this point and still something is owed? Even with deposits things happen, deposited get returned. Things in this world are fluid.


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## pawsnpaca (Nov 11, 2014)

I know how frustrating this must be... especially when breeders aren't responding to you and may not have been clear on how they handle their waitlists. It's impossible to say for sure what might be going on. Some of what Prism described may be playing into it. I know one breeder who has 30 "return buyers" on her list AND another list of 30 new customers on her waitlist, and she decides who will actually be offered a puppy based on how many pups she has, what their sexes or personalities are, and whether there is a particularly promising puppy she might want to keep, and/or might even offer a pup to someone as a co-own (whether that person has expressed an interest in advance or not). I don't believe how long someone has been on her waitlist has much bearing on who actually gets offered a puppy (though I certainly hope she has made it clear that she hasn't "promised" a puppy to ANYONE on her list and that those individuals are free to wait or keep looking as they see fit). And of course, it's always possible that, for their own private reasons, "your" breeders decided they no longer want to offer you a puppy and want to avoid the conflict of flat out telling you that. Or they're just flakey... Whatever the reason, puppies are in such demand right now that breeders don't have to worry much about losing a frustrated buyer anymore (other than just simple courtesy, compassion, and ethics of course).

I really feel for you, but if these breeders are being this unresponsive to you currently, they may continue to be after you buy one of their pups, so maybe they aren't such a great match after all, and maybe it's worth moving on to other breeders (I know... easier said than done, and even more delay, and SO disappointing and frustrating!). I don't think that what you are experiencing is typical... but nothing in 2020 is typical.

I sure hope it's all just a misunderstanding or unforeseen circumstances and that you have your puppy very soon!


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## GoldenRMP (Dec 30, 2020)

Prism Goldens said:


> As to the FB posts- that is more social time to most people I think. I do imagine the breeder who offered up on her page without asking folks waiting if they'd like the pup just didn't think of it.. that, or she had more time and money invested in him and assumed perhaps wrongly that people would feel upcharged.


I highly doubt that, as he was only a held back for a few weeks. She knows I would pay whatever price for the right dog. To not ask, then publicly say you have a male available, then not respond to that inquiry, then sell that male to someone who weeks earlier just bought his brother is beyond rude. In my eyes, she either craves the attention, is completely unprofessional and in way over her head or she's doing this to create some sort of bidding war. Either way, I wish I knew this about her before I waited so long.

I understand breeders are getting a ton of Emails and a ton of people changing their minds, but to not maintain a list and communicate that list with those that are on it is insane to me. Its creating so much competition and 100x more emails and communications then necessary. I'm not asking for weekly updates. I just want to know that I have a spot reserved and that the list is being honored and maintained (I would think quarterly, 4x times a year, would be sufficient.) But out of those 3, not a single one gave me my position or any sort of update after the fact and apparently can't be bothered to reply. Doing so probably pushes a lot of people to apply to 25 different breeders, just exacerbating the problem. I figured this was happening going in, so I even offered to pay in full, in cash before hand just to communicate that I was serious about the puppy and would not change my mind, so I know that can't be the issue. 

Just researching and finding a reputable breeder can be overwhelming. To do so, then be completely ignored after months of patiently waiting is upsetting. Now even the squeaky wheel isn't getting the grease, which most likely comes back to not maintaining a list and not wanting to tell me that she's probably allowed 20 others in front of me (I can't think of another reason why. I'm 35, own my own house with a fenced in 2 acres. Have a very stable life that allows for 24/7 care for the dog. Only putting this in here because I can't imagine the amount of COVID dog wanters that will probably change their minds in 2 months when they go back to work.)


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## GoldenRMP (Dec 30, 2020)

gr56 said:


> Ok so I get your frustrated
> Understand a dam should only breed 2 a year? And a breeder may decide even longer between births. Also a average litter size is around 8 and could sadley even result in 1 puppy or on the opposite side 15 but let’s stick with 8 . So every year between these 3 breeders only 48 people get a golden ticket to take home a puppy
> 
> Your not dealing with puppy mills either and these breeders as stated could easily have 50 people on their heals?? Just as you try to vet breeders, they also have to vet owners. you don’t get to just pull a number and wait like at the deli. Even without covid people wait years.
> ...


None of these wanted a deposit until a puppy was born. I offered to even pay for it up front. 

I understand its not a deli, but even the deli doesn't give you a ticket and then lock the doors for the day. 

And these breeders have multiple litters per year.


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## gr56 (May 11, 2019)

GoldenRMP said:


> None of these wanted a deposit until a puppy was born. I offered to even pay for it up front.
> 
> I understand its not a deli, but even the deli doesn't give you a ticket and then lock the doors for the day.
> 
> And these breeders have multiple litters per year.


It’s the **** storm of 2020 keep reaching out to the GR clubs in your area.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

I'm sorry you're having such a crappy experience. I really am. I am hoping that what happened falls into the category of what Prism explained - these are just regular people and the sheer numbers of communications makes it hard to keep things straight. I promise that no one here is trying to excuse rude and inconsiderate behavior toward you, more of just trying to think of what could have gone wrong. I hate that you've been trying to do things as well as possible and are getting burned. I know it does you no good, but please know I have sympathy for what you're going through. Something to keep in mind, if the breeders you were in touch with have truly, no excuses, treated you badly, the only condolence is t,hat you wouldn't have wanted to deal with them if you ever needed help with the puppy and you certainly wouldn't want to give them your money. Fingers crossed something comes through soon...


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## GoldenRMP (Dec 30, 2020)

gr56 said:


> It’s the **** storm of 2020 keep reaching out to the GR clubs in your area.


I just started to after realizing these breeders weren't getting back to me. What's to say the issue wont happen again and now I'm 7+ months behind. If I wanted a dog in 3 years, I'd just wait 2 and then apply because once this Covid mess is over I can't imagine there will be any sort of demand for a decade. 

One things for sure, I will NEVER use a breeder that can't articulate how their waitlist works. I just lost one of mine, so I'm already down about that. Now finding a puppy has become this never ending competition and has really taken any sort of joy out of the process. 2020 just sucks.


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## gr56 (May 11, 2019)

GoldenRMP said:


> Just researching and finding a reputable breeder can be overwhelming. To do so, then be completely ignored after months of patiently waiting is upsetting. Now even the squeaky wheel isn't getting the grease, which most likely comes back to not maintaining a list and not wanting to tell me that she's probably allowed 20 others in front of me (I can't think of another reason why. I'm 35, own my own house with a fenced in 2 acres. Have a very stable life that allows for 24/7 care for the dog. Only putting this in here because I can't imagine the amount of COVID dog wanters that will probably change their minds in 2 months when they go back to work.)


here is the GRCA coast to coast listing by state of the golden retriever clubs under their umbrella 





Local Golden Retriever Clubs - Golden Retriever Club of America







grca.org





If you do end up starting over try reaching out a referral as they have already vetted reputable breeders and will be able to cast a wider net


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## GoldenRMP (Dec 30, 2020)

gr56 said:


> here is the GRCA coast to coast listing by state of the golden retriever clubs under their umbrella
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thank you. I reached out to a few. Just want to puke thinking the entire vetting process is starting over (I was amazed at how many breeders aren't doing things ethically even while preaching about ethics in breeding. IE breeding males under 2 without clearances)


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

This is exactly why I refuse to keep a list. It would be cumbersome for me, who works a regular 9-5 and the dogs are my passion not income. The word list also creates an unrealistic expectation from buyers that I am assigning them a number and that first come, first served has anything to do with my placement process. I select what I feel is the best home for each puppy. That’s right, I pick the home for the puppy, not the other way around. So the best home could be one that contacted me months ago or one that just reached out today. For me as a breeder it is all about fit. It is not about lists, it is not about money, it is not about putting any buyer desire over what is best for this little life I caused to come into the world.

Yes, I will always try to be transparent, honest and professional but if any tries to place business expectations on me like I am Amazon, they will be very disappointed.

I have a feeling that most breeders are like me.

This different view point may be what is causing your frustration especially with the deli example you shared. Buying a puppy is just not like most other things you vast consumer experience is based on.

I do hope everything works out for you and I am sorry you are getting ghosted, that is certainly not right.


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## GoldenRMP (Dec 30, 2020)

LJack said:


> This is exactly why I refuse to keep a list. It would be cumbersome for mewho works a regular 9-5 and the dogs are my passion not income. The word list also creates an unrealistic expectation from buyers that I am assigning them a number and that first come, first served has anything to do with my placement process. I select what I feel is the best home for each puppy. That’s right, I pick the home for the puppy, not the other way around. So the best home could be one that contacted me months ago or one that just reached out today. For me as a breeder it is all about fit. It is not about lists, it is not about money, it is not about putting any buyer desire over what is best for this little life I caused to come into the world.
> 
> Yes, I will always try to be transparent, honest and professional but if any tries to place business expectations on me like I am Amazon, they will be very disappointed.
> 
> ...


So say you have a 12-18 month _waitlist or _group of names or whatever you want to call it. You are honestly telling people it could be next week or it could be 18 months I will let you know a week before hand? To each their own. To be honest, I would've passed on that breeder that handles it like that. I understand that you want to place a puppy based on the owner and well a lot of factors and I could see moving people around a litter or two to accomplish it, but that sort of open ended timeframe just isn't for me (Especially after losing one unexpectedly. I couldn't imagine 18 months of checking my emails every 15 minutes to see I I won the lottery)

_But either way you maintained some sort of list and communicated it with the group, which is what I'm complaining about *hasn't *happened to date._


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

LJack said:


> This is exactly why I refuse to keep a list.


My breeder didn't have a list either. The first time around it made for some anxiety cause I was getting puppy pictures and updates but I didn't know if I was for sure getting a puppy from that litter or not (though to be fair, I was also in the market for a boy and so when both boys turned out show quality and she picked show homes for them, she told me she didn't have a boy for me but if I wanted a girl she had the perfect girl for me. And she did. Lana is perfect. The second time around I was less anxious. What was to be would be. 

Both times I inquired with our breeder re: puppy plans, I was told she had a breeding planned but was waiting on her girl to come into season and to check back. And even after she's been bred, you just don't know if the pregnancy took, or how many puppies will be whelped or of those whelped how many will make it to 8 weeks cause a lot can go wrong. And once the puppies are on the ground and thriving, you're looking at sorting out the personality and the puppies needs with the people who are interested. Cause you don't want to sell a puppy to a home that is ill equipped to handle that dog or to a home where the puppy's strengths will languish. It's a delicate balance. One of which I don't envy from the breeder's POV. 

And all the breeders I inquired with BEFORE we asked Lana's breeder never responded and this was back in 2017-2018 before COVID took a red hot fly swatter at smacked everyone around. 

I get that it's harder when you have no dogs at home and the weight of having lost a dog recently is kinda pressurizing the search. I wish you the best in your search, OP.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

GoldenRMP said:


> So say you have a 12-18 month _waitlist or _group of names or whatever you want to call it.
> 
> _But either way you maintained some sort of list and communicated it with the group, which is what I'm complaining about hasn't happened to date._


No, I don’t maintain a list at all.

I offer to have people actually complete a survey and start the interview process only when I have an expectation of a litter I.e. I have completed a breeding (still I have no idea if it will take but it is just a couple of months to fin out at that point. There is no way I would hand anyone anything they could even misconstrue as a commitment until we have had a very thorough interview process and it seems we both think we and the dogs are likely to be a good fit. I am not willing to sacrifice my family and dog time to interview people when my next litter might be months or a year from now.

I do it this way because I don’t want to string people along and again I am not a first come, first serve type of person.

I can only speak of my process but I think you may be finding similarities in other breeders. Did any of the three conduct interviews with you? You might be hearing list and think you are pre-approved. They might mean list in the sense they should follow-up when they expect they might have a puppy for you. Either way I agree there is no excuse to not respond even if that is a decline.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

LJack said:


> .... I pick the home for the puppy, not the other way around. So the best home could be one that contacted me months ago or one that just reached out today. For me as a breeder it is all about fit. _It is not about lists, it is not about money, it is not about putting any buyer desire over_* what is best for this little life I caused to come into the world.*...I have a feeling that most breeders are like me....


It is a huge responsibility. I admire your commitment to the dogs you bring into the world.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

GoldenRMP said:


> I highly doubt that, as he was only a held back for a few weeks. She knows I would pay whatever price for the right dog. To not ask, then publicly say you have a male available, then not respond to that inquiry, then sell that male to someone who weeks earlier just bought his brother is beyond rude. In my eyes, she either craves the attention, is completely unprofessional and in way over her head or she's doing this to create some sort of bidding war. Either way, I wish I knew this about her before I waited so long.


Maybe there is something about the brother's person that held additional appeal, such as a show home. I dk.


GoldenRMP said:


> I understand breeders are getting a ton of Emails and a ton of people changing their minds, but to not maintain a list and communicate that list with those that are on it is insane to me. Its creating so much competition and 100x more emails and communications then necessary. I'm not asking for weekly updates. I just want to know that I have a spot reserved and that the list is being honored and maintained (I would think quarterly, 4x times a year, would be sufficient.) But out of those 3, not a single one gave me my position or any sort of update after the fact and apparently can't be bothered to reply. Doing so probably pushes a lot of people to apply to 25 different breeders, just exacerbating the problem. I figured this was happening going in, so I even offered to pay in full, in cash before hand just to communicate that I was serious about the puppy and would not change my mind, so I know that can't be the issue.


This paragraph says you don't understand how good breeders choose the homes. I am one who does take deposits- but sending me a deposit only insures your name goes on my upcoming litters folder, it doesn't assign you a number on that folder or anything besides the fact that I have vetted you, gotten an app from you, showed you the contract you will sign when you do take a puppy home, and you seem likely to make a good home for one of my puppies. I wouldn't take prepayment nor would I tell you more than I expect to have a puppy for you in the next year if that is true. You can get your deposit back at any time up until my litter is 2 weeks old and you have been notified there is likely a puppy in it for you- after that, I am going to donate it to the GRFoundation. Puppies can come all one gender, or be a small litter, or any number of things can arise that make someone whose name I just wrote on the folder get a puppy sooner than the other excellent home whose name was there 6 months ago. I'm really clear on that when someone tries to push me for 'if there are 3 boys I get one' scenario, because that just may not happen. It's a serious choice, on my part, of home. I feel a responsibility for every puppy I create. I want the very best life I can get for them.

Your comment on 2 years from now's glut in 'the market' isn't probably going to be problematic for good breeders- we had people waiting before covid and will have people waiting after covid. What WILL be a problem if we don't choose well now is the care and position in the home when people go back to work. I would like to think everyone is being super careful on as much as they can, as to future plans. And I would also imagine repeat families would usually take priority since they had earlier proven themselves with one of our preciousnesses.


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## GoldenRMP (Dec 30, 2020)

LJack said:


> No, I don’t maintain a list at all.
> 
> I offer to have people actually complete a survey and start the interview process only when I have an expectation of a litter I.e. I have completed a breeding (still I have no idea if it will take but it is just a couple of months to fin out at that point. There is no way I would hand anyone anything they could even misconstrue as a commitment until we have had a very thorough interview process and it seems we both think we and the dogs are likely to be a good fit. I am not willing to sacrifice my family and dog time to interview people when my next litter might be months or a year from now.
> 
> ...



Everyone seems to be getting hung up on this list thing. You clearly maintain a List / Record/ Group/ Register of names and you update that group. Whatever you want to call it, its not like your selling your puppies on Craigslist. Your selling to someone who you've interviewed and agreed to sell a puppy to. I don't want to get hung up on how you categorize it. I had zero expectations on timing and completely understood how most puppies are placed. 

But at the end of the day, somewhere there was a list of names that people knew they were on with the expectation of getting a puppy at some point. *This is what these breeders lacked.*

And I did do interviews with all 3 and all 3 seemed genuinely excited about finding me a puppy.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

GoldenRMP said:


> Everyone seems to be getting hung up on this list thing. You clearly maintain a List / Record/ Group/ Register of names and you update that group.


No, I don’t.

When I have actual plans I post online. My website, my FB, my Insta, and breeders.net. It is up to those who reached out previously to reach back out at that point. I have never had any issues finding quality homes. There are alway more people looking than well bred puppies available. So, no - no list at all.


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## GoldenRMP (Dec 30, 2020)

Prism Goldens said:


> This paragraph says you don't understand how good breeders choose the homes. I am one who does take deposits- but sending me a deposit only insures your name goes on my upcoming litters folder, it doesn't assign you a number on that folder or anything besides the fact that I have vetted you and you seem likely to make a good home for one of my puppies. I wouldn't take prepayment nor would I tell you more than I expect to have a puppy for you in the next year. Puppies can come all one gender, or be a small litter, or any number of things can arise that make someone whose name I just wrote on the folder get a puppy sooner than the other excellent home whose name was there 6 months ago. I'm really clear on that when someone tries to push me for 'if there are 3 boys I get one' scenario, because that just may not happen. It's a serious choice, on my part, of home. I feel a responsibility for every puppy I create. I want the very best life I can get for them.


We're getting hung up on this, and its not my issue. What you just described, putting peoples name on a folder, is literally the definition of a list. They have a spot at some point in the future. That's all I wanted to know from these breeders. I understand how they're placed and I understand that having your name in doesn't guarantee a puppy from any one specific litter. Don't have a problem with that. But I bet you update those people that have put deposits down throughout the year, or with each litter. This is the disconnect I'm having. From being told I'm on a list, waiting 7 months and now not getting a response.


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## GoldenRMP (Dec 30, 2020)

LJack said:


> No, I don’t.
> 
> When I have actual plans I post online. My website, my FB, my Insta, and breeders.net. It is up to those who reached out previously to reach back out at that point. I have never had any issues finding quality homes. There are alway more people looking than well bred puppies available. So, no - no list at all.


To each their own. I can't sit around waiting to find someone who breeds like that, only to be told that 10 people contacted them within the 1st 30 seconds of that post. 

In 2020, to find a healthy puppy by sleuthing around the internet hoping to stumble on a litter that hasn't been committed too months in advance would be a full time job.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

GoldenRMP said:


> And I did do interviews with all 3 and all 3 seemed genuinely excited about finding me a puppy.


You completed an application and did an in person visit? Did you get offered a contract to review? Lots of breeders talk on the phone to many buyers, so what some may think is an interview call might have just been a conversation. IDK because I was not privy to your search. I just find it odd three responsible breeders would interview you, promise you a puppy and then ghost. That is highly unusual.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

GoldenRMP said:


> To each their own. I can't sit around waiting to find someone who breeds like that, only to be told that 10 people contacted them within the 1st 30 seconds of that post.


You are not understanding. I don’t know if it is intentional or not. I (like I think almost breeders are) are looking for the best fit homes. My puppies are not the PS5 at Christmas. It is not me throwing open the doors on Black Friday and saying I have 30 random inquiries, I am done now. I am looking to see that you are a good fit. If the inquiries are wonderfully full of what the family wants their dogs life to be and others that say how much and when, guess who will get invited to fill out the initial survey?

But, yes I do expect buyers to shoulder some of the work. I want them to want one of my puppies enough to invest a once a week quick peek at any of my online sites. If not, they want a puppy but not my puppy. I am okay with working with families that chose my dogs not any dogs.


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

Let's maybe shelf the list verbiage and just focus on the sum of the compliant. OP has 3 breeders that are no longer communicating with them. What do you do? 

IMO, drop them a line and say something like "hey it's been a while since we connected. I'm not sure where you are in your breeding plans right now but I wanted to let you know I'm looking around at other breeders to see if their timelines might be a better fit for our family. Feel free to contact me back so we can chat, even if it's just a lead for another litter I might be interested in. Thanks again for all your help and time the past several months. I really appreciate it."

There are also FB groups that offer litter listings but it's up to the buyer to vet the breeders/breedings listed to ensure they comply with the COE in regards to clearances and what not. In the scheme of things, it's like a small step up from the AKC marketplace. 

FWIW, while I'm not a breeder myself, I do know a handful of them and they all work full time in addition to their dog hobbies. And I'm just a pet owner who works full time and this year has put me through the ringer. The amount of energy or motivation I have to even get through the work day is severely limited compared to what it was back in March (or even in August). I'm sure other people are feeling similarly so maybe to that end, this is just a byproduct of people being overwhelmed with all that life is throwing at them right now. As LJack said, I agree you should have received some sort of communication, and for the lack of communication you've received, I'm sorry.


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## Sunpuppy (Jul 24, 2013)

I think my breeder works much like LJack. I have known my breeder for about 22 years when she let me have her 5 month old male that she felt wasn't right for the show ring. Getting a well-bred puppy was different then, for sure. 

I've gotten 3 other puppies from her since then and am "on her list" for a 4th. I think the first ones that make "the list" are the ones she knows for sure will take care of her precious puppies like she wants them to be taken care of. They're her puppies and she has every right to make sure they go to the very best home she knows about at the time. 

Her web site said she wasn't taking any more applications, but I was able to get in line for a male from a nice litter; sadly, it didn't work out. Hopefully, the puppy meant for me will come this spring.

I would have no problem if I didn't get a puppy because she said, "I'm sorry, I don't have a puppy for you because I am keeping him to show him" or "I have a show home I want him to go to" or even, "Your home is just not the right fit for a puppy from this litter."

I guess my advice is keep trying, but make your inquiries about the puppy and the life you would give it. That's the utmost concern for the best breeders. It's just not about you or someone's place in line. It's about the puppies and the best home for each one.

And the very best advice I can give is, after you do get a puppy--stay in contact with your breeder! Believe me, he or she wants to know how that puppy is doing. They want pictures and updates. If people did that, they would have far less trouble getting the next puppy down the line.

Good luck in your search.


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## tobypuppy (Dec 7, 2020)

In my current search, I have had good and poor communications with reputable breeders. Just a awkward time to get a puppy. To few puppies, to many buyers. Tough time to be without a fur buddy.


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## eeerrrmmm1 (Apr 15, 2018)

GoldenRMP said:


> I just started to after realizing these breeders weren't getting back to me. What's to say the issue wont happen again and now I'm 7+ months behind. If I wanted a dog in 3 years, I'd just wait 2 and then apply because once this Covid mess is over I can't imagine there will be any sort of demand for a decade.
> 
> One things for sure, I will NEVER use a breeder that can't articulate how their waitlist works. I just lost one of mine, so I'm already down about that. Now finding a puppy has become this never ending competition and has really taken any sort of joy out of the process. 2020 just sucks.


Yep. It's a weird competition. We're in the same boat more or less - very good candidates for a puppy for the same reasons you mentioned (fenced in yard, house owned outright, have experience w/ goldens, both of us partially work from home, very active, will pay basically anything) but I doubt we'll be able to get a puppy for a year plus. We need more breeders that are doing health clearances. There was a shortage before the pandemic and now it's just insane. 

As far as breeders keeping lists - I'm guessing the majority are not from the world of organized spreadsheets and I imagine most prefer to be... unconstrained with how/when/who they sell their puppies to - because they can and they want to do whatever they believe is best for the puppy and makes them (the breeder) feel good at that particular time. 

I understand the irritation though, if choosing buyers was done in a purely organized and meritocratic way, we'd probably be getting puppies sooner.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

eeerrrmmm1 said:


> As far as breeders keeping lists - I'm guessing the majority are not from the world of organized spreadsheets and I imagine most prefer to be... unconstrained with how/when/who they sell their puppies to - because they can and they want to do whatever they believe is best for the puppy and makes them (the breeder) feel good at that particular time.
> 
> I understand the irritation though, if choosing buyers was done in a purely organized and meritocratic way, we'd probably be getting puppies sooner.


Spreadsheets might make sense to me as a breeder if 
1. I was not drowning in contacts, most of which are not good indication of what type of home they would actually be. 
2. I had any real control over the if, when, how many and what sexes of puppies I produce.
3. All the potential homes I would have sacrificed family time for to interview and put on this spreadsheet would absolutely stay put, no changes of plans, no “I found a puppy sooner but didn’t tell you” or “I found a cheaper puppy and didn’t tell you.

The day my dogs become a full time job, while I still have the full time job is when I will stop breeding. My hobby is certainly not about spreadsheets or spending several hours a day after a full work day, answering or returning calls. I don’t think that is fair to me, my family or my dogs.

Regardless of if you agree or not most breeders don’t think of the dogs as a business. This understandably frustrates families looking for puppies because they have a extensive experience as consumers and expect breeders to behave in the same way business do.

I do honestly get the frustration. I buy puppies too. I have to wait too. I have to get hopes up to only find out there were not enough puppies too. It sucks.


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## GoldenRMP (Dec 30, 2020)

LJack said:


> You are not understanding. I don’t know if it is intentional or not. I (like I think almost breeders are) are looking for the best fit homes. My puppies are not the PS5 at Christmas. It is not me throwing open the doors on Black Friday and saying I have 30 random inquiries, I am done now. I am looking to see that you are a good fit. If the inquiries are wonderfully full of what the family wants their dogs life to be and others that say how much and when, guess who will get invited to fill out the initial survey?


Ye


LJack said:


> You are not understanding. I don’t know if it is intentional or not. I (like I think almost breeders are) are looking for the best fit homes. My puppies are not the PS5 at Christmas. It is not me throwing open the doors on Black Friday and saying I have 30 random inquiries, I am done now. I am looking to see that you are a good fit. If the inquiries are wonderfully full of what the family wants their dogs life to be and others that say how much and when, guess who will get invited to fill out the initial


So after you vet them, before the puppies are born, how would you catorgize the people you selected? How would you maintain that information?

A list of some sort? I’m not trying to be rude, but your missing my point. And to be quite honest I did not come here to debate how you find a home for your dogs.

Of the 50+ breeders I spoke to, literally every single one maintained some sort of list. I never claimed it was set in stone.
What you just described is the exact process of vetting and maintaining a list that you claim isn’t what you do. 

Again, I’m not here to debate that. Just to vent that for some people it’s more then just a dog, so when these highly reviewed breeders don’t communicate well or simply stop communicating because their inundated with inquires, it’s hard on those that actually deserve one and who have been patient.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Random thoughts from my two functioning brain cells:

Call it a list if you want, but just because I take your information and interview you doesn't mean you're going to ever get a puppy from me. It's way too early to tell. What I call those applications is "a bunch of people who have asked about getting a puppy from me." Basically a "pool," not a "list." A list, to me, implies some sort of order. Mine has none of that, and it sounds like I'm "on all fours" with LJack in that way.

If you were ghosted by three reputable breeders, my _guess _would be that there is something about you that doesn't make them comfortable enough to commit to you, but doesn't turn them off enough to reject you outright. It's a sucky limbo to be in, I'm sure. I've had some like that, too. I'm troubled by them, but not enough to just dump them straight up. Maybe they'll be right for a puppy, maybe (probably) not.

I collect applications and spend a tremendous amount of time interviewing everyone. It's a huge task. But I don't commit to anyone until I know what I have on the ground (and that includes temperament, which you don't know when the dam whelps) and who else I have to choose from. I give priority to (in this order) me, repeat buyers, friends, and show or performance homes. Everyone else is competing for whatever is left over after that.

On Mauna Kea there is a grand telescope that can image stars and things in space 12 times better than any previous telescope, ever. On Mt. Palomar there's a more recent telescope that has six times the imaging capability of the Mauna Kea telescope. If you were to put the Mauna Kea telescope inside the Mt. Palomar telescope, you still could not see the amount of interest I have in what you want. My only, my sole, my driving, and my overriding concern is what is the best home for each individual little soul I am responsible for bringing into the world. My duty is to them, not to you. I'll do what I think is best for those puppies, no matter what. And like Laura, I don't care if it's someone who submitted an application 18 months ago or someone who submitted one yesterday, the best home for _that particular puppy _is going to get it. This is not a business. You are not a customer. I don't sell a product. This is me trying to avoid lying awake at night regretting that I gave a puppy to someone and lamenting that dog's life.

I had a 7-week old litter, and had picked out people for the puppies after an arduous process. I had a puppy party where I invited them all to come and interact with the puppies. There, the wife of one of the buyers did something that made me realize they weren't the home I thought they were, despite all the effort I put into vetting them. Buyers get sophisticated about showing you only what they want you to see. Even though I had already promised a puppy to that buyer, I pulled them and gave the puppy to someone else. Why? Because I care about the puppies, not the buyers. People find that so hard to understand! And I don't understand why. It's a simple concept. Each little soul is one I brought into the world. It will live a life. That life will be somewhere between desperate and euphoric. I want them all up near the euphoric end. I have actual nightmares about making a mistake placing a puppy. I care about their lives when they are tiny puppies and when they are grizzled seniors. My duty is to them. Not you.

Now, all that said about what's best for the puppy and all, I do try to be honest and up front about the process, and not lead people on. Even after having a litter on the ground for weeks, I have told many people that they are in a group of, say, 60 people vying for 8 puppies, so 52 of them will be disappointed. And I invite them to withdraw if that's not for them. So they understand what the situation is. These are 60 people who would be a generally acceptable dog home, but not necessarily the _best _home for any particular one of these puppies. And I do temperament testing at around 7.5 weeks, so I don't make my final decisions until just before puppies go home. Sometimes by then I've narrowed it down to just people who will get a puppy. Sometimes it's still fairly wide open among the group. It just depends on the particular pool of people I have and the particular puppies.

If I could keep them all, I would. I cannot. So I have to give them the best lives I can elsewhere. Maybe it's you. Maybe it's not. And it might not be until the last week until you and I will know. If you can't handle that, move to another breeder. And I _never _tell buyers they can get a puppy from my next litter, because I'll go through the same process for each individual puppy in the next litter, too.

It would be so much easier if I could just make a list and go down the list! But I can't. I just cannot in good conscience do that.

I feel fairly certain that someone will find my extremely hysterical and funny comment about the telescopes offensive, but I enjoyed the joke so much I'm gonna leave it up there. Sometimes the jokes are just for me.  Ya gotta admit, it does make the point.

To continue with the deli metaphor, you might stand in line for an hour at my deli counter, only to get to the front of the line and hear me say, "No soup for you!" (And if you don't get that reference, you probably have a life and don't watch enough TV.)


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

The reason I keep talking about my process is because I don’t know what your breeders are doing. Yes, I think we (breeders) have quite a bit in common so I do expect quite a bit of cross over to your breeders assuming as you asserted that they are reputable.

So, let me clarify list and what it means to me. It means trouble, work and misconceptions. When someone emails me and says add me to your list, I tactfully say no, there is no list. Watch my site and when I announce plans (I do try to give approximate like mid-2020 as an example) and to please reach back out at that time if they are still interested to begin my interview process.

If they do, they start with a survey. Then if I am seeing good indicators on the survey I move to a true phone interview (we are interviewing each other), at that time if we both think we are a good fit, we will agree to sharing more communication including a draft of my contract. I never go beyond that unless we have had a follow up discussion about the contract. Then I would send more self initiated communication of the pregnancy, puppies, rearing milestones etc. but at this time there still is no guarantee I will have a puppy for them and they still need an in person meeting. For me that is when the puppies are about 4 weeks old. If at that visit everything still feels good, that is when I take a deposit. Life happens so I still can’t guarantee but that is the point when I commit, with in my power to that family. So, if list to you means guaranteed a puppy and you want to box me into that definition of the word, I guess when the puppies are 4 weeks old is when you would consider that I have a list.

I hope that is transparent. I do feel a lot of breeders are like me. I think the definition of list may be very different to different people. It seems your definition if I am understanding is guaranteed a puppy at some point. I don’t use it at all. I imagine some mean a list of interested people with no commitment on either side.

So, on these three breeders, did you do an in person visit or see a contract?


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Oops. Random repost, and I can't delete.


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## GoldenRMP (Dec 30, 2020)

DanaRuns said:


> Random thoughts from my two functioning brain cells:
> 
> Call it a list if you want, but just because I take your information and interview you doesn't mean you're going to ever get a puppy from me. It's way too early to tell. What I call those applications is "a bunch of people who have asked about getting a puppy from me." Basically a "pool," not a "list." A list, to me, implies some sort of order. Mine has none of that, and it sounds like I'm "on all fours" with LJack in that way.
> 
> If you were ghosted by three reputable breeders, my _guess _would be that there is something about you that doesn't make them comfortable enough to commit to you, but doesn't turn them off enough to reject you outright. It's a sucky limbo to be in, I'm sure. I've had some like that, too. I'm troubled by them, but not enough to just dump them straight up. Maybe they'll be right for a puppy, maybe (probably) not.


Fine, let’s all use the word pool and stop discussing it. We’re all on the same page on how most breeder do it. 

I was waiting for someone to blame it on me. Trust me there’s zero reason any breeder would hesitate. These dogs are my life. They’re walked daily, have a yard and other dogs around, are never left alone, fly with me, swim in the lake weekly and are pampered to death. Not offended at that possibility though, but it’s not the case.

I really think some these breeders are super overwhelmed or assume we’re on 25 different lists. Kinda wish I would’ve picked a less popular one but Facebook tells me this is pretty common lately


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## gr56 (May 11, 2019)

GoldenRMP said:


> I really think some these breeders are super overwhelmed or assume we’re on 25 different lists. Kinda wish I would’ve picked a less popular one but Facebook tells me this is pretty common lately


Please follow the advice below no one will blame you . Get yourself lined up with 25 breeders.College applicants don’t just apply to Harvard Oxford and Princeton. Cast your net and cast it wide. 


Brave said:


> IMO, drop them a line and say something like "hey it's been a while since we connected. I'm not sure where you are in your breeding plans right now but I wanted to let you know I'm looking around at other breeders to see if their timelines might be a better fit for our family. Feel free to contact me back so we can chat, even if it's just a lead for another litter I might be interested in. Thanks again for all your help and time the past several months. I really appreciate it.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

GoldenRMP said:


> I was waiting for someone to blame it on me.


Honey, I wasn't blaming you. I'm just trying to figure out why three good breeders would treat you that way. What's the common denominator? I am absolutely not challenging that you appear to be a fabulous home. But there's something going on. What do _you_ think it is?


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## eeerrrmmm1 (Apr 15, 2018)

LJack said:


> Spreadsheets might make sense to me as a breeder if
> 1. I was not drowning in contacts, most of which are not good indication of what type of home they would actually be.
> 2. I had any real control over the if, when, how many and what sexes of puppies I produce.
> 3. All the potential homes I would have sacrificed family time for to interview and put on this spreadsheet would absolutely stay put, no changes of plans, no “I found a puppy sooner but didn’t tell you” or “I found a cheaper puppy and didn’t tell you.
> ...


I'm assuming that no breeder would be keeping a spreadsheet of people who didn't make the cut of what the breeder would consider an excellent home. There's certainly no point in keeping info on every rando that emails or calls. If I were a breeder, I'd definitely have a spreadsheet w/ columns like fenced yard, small children, other animals (breed/age), house owned or mortgaged, occupations etc. Then I'd be picky as hell and whoever made the cut, I'd then google stalk the ish out of them to make sure no red flags surfaced. And all of the people that had small children, a dog breed I don't trust or a yard that wasn't fenced or some occupation that I didn't feel was recession proof, all of those people would be complaining about me. Lol.

Point number 2 is understood. 

Point number 3 is interesting but seems like the sort of thing that would be easy to adjust around and would actually help organize so if one qualified candidate falls through, it's simple to move on to the next qualified home.

Your last point about buyers wishing that breeders behaved as a business is exactly right. I do look at almost all other transactions and compare them to what I would or wouldn't tolerate in my place of business and you're right. Good breeders are often hobbyists and it's not a business model.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

So on point one, let’s take me specifically.

My last litter was in May of 2019 my next is in mid to late 2021 _hopefully_. How much time would I loose if I went through my whole vetting process when I had no expectation of puppies in a reasonable timeframe? If this were say June 2020, could I count on my spent time away from my family and the risk (not COVID but that is a concern now too) to be worth it when I would loose people who probably wouldn’t be content to wait for “I hope to have puppies in a year or so”?

It is not about deleting a line from a spreadsheet, that’s easy. It is all the other time and effort. It is about inviting basically strangers to my home when breeders have been targeted, robbed or attacked all the way up to being killed.

Choosing my homes is more than do they have a fence, so that selection process is hours and hours of invested time. If I ran a spreadsheet in the way you seem to indicate, the spreadsheet would not be the time consuming part but the process behind creating, maintaining and following up to determine who decided my puppies were not worth the wait would be.

For breeders like me that do not produce multiple litters a year or even a litter every year, there is just not much if any value in doing that, unless we took deposits that are non-refundable and that is not a good option for soooo many reasons. Like I personally never want to hold someone hostage because of point 2.

So, to me personally the spreadsheet kept way head of possible litters is a solution looking for a problem or perhaps more accurately, it is a buyer solution without a matching breeder problem. It helps people who may or may not end up in my group of families while not helping me at all and adding work, stress and time away from my family. I would want a solution that benefits both parties. Is what I do perfect? No. It just happens to work for me. If you can think of a better way that doesn’t end up with heaps more work on my shoulders, I am all for it.

I do get that the uncertainty is not fun. Trust me, I really do. Try planning a trip to Italy, dealing importation papers, internationally moving money and appropriate vaccinations, all while you wonder if there really will be a puppy for you. Been there done that.


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## ravi87 (Jun 4, 2020)

Don’t bother complaining about your breeder issues here, you will just get lectured about how amazing the breeder community is.


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## guyerk (Sep 18, 2020)

gr56 said:


> It’s the **** storm of 2020 keep reaching out to the GR clubs in your area.


Not the original poster, but I can't even get replies from most of them. I have had phone calls, voicemails, and emails all ignored. The only person who responds is from out of state, and thank God she is helping me. However, I'm still without a pup almost a year later...


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## eeerrrmmm1 (Apr 15, 2018)

LJack said:


> So on point one, let’s take me specifically.
> 
> My last litter was in May of 2019 my next is in mid to late 2021 _hopefully_. How much time would I loose if I went through my whole vetting process when I had no expectation of puppies in a reasonable timeframe? If this were say June 2020, could I count on my spent time away from my family and the risk (not COVID but that is a concern now too) to be worth it when I would loose people who probably wouldn’t be content to wait for “I hope to have puppies in a year or so”?
> 
> ...


Yeah, maintaining a list of qualified buyers when you're not planning on a litter for a year plus makes no sense.

I think the frustration being expressed here in this particular thread is related to it seeming like getting a puppy is largely about pure luck in timing of contact. I do understand that it's a multilayered problem with a lot of variables. My personal intention isn't really to express irritation w/ breeders, more vague disappointment that the process isn't more like a test so I could just score well and get a puppy. Lol.


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## gr56 (May 11, 2019)

.


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## gr56 (May 11, 2019)

eeerrrmmm1 said:


> more like a test so I could just score well and get a puppy. Lol.


I’m just a bad test taker lol


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## ewokzzz (Aug 31, 2020)

It is interesting (though unsurprising) to see the breeders so quick to defend and justify this other breeder's actions, to suggest why it happened, and also quick to suggest it is perhaps this person's fault that the breeders are passing him over. Basically the theme is, well we get so many inquiries lately, and it's so hard to pick the best homes, so you can't blame us. But we are overlooking the issue here which is is not the fact that these breeders were unable to accommodate this person - the issue is that the breeders led this person to believe that he was "in line", so to speak. If the breeder did not maintain a list, or this person had no chances of getting a puppy anytime soon, the breeder(s) should have made that clear. Instead this person has put in the time to contact the breeders, was led to believe they have passed a certain barrier due to some sort of interview of extended communication, and they are now thinking they are on a waiting list, when apparently they were not. And we do hear time and time again, from the breeders giving advice to puppy-seekers, that it's purely a matter getting on a waiting list and once you are on that list, you simply bide your time. "Don't be impatient, it's worth waiting to go with a hobbyist!" is what we see, over and over again. Now suddenly it's, "well waiting lists aren't exactly waiting lists, this isn't a deli". It shouldn't be hard to see why puppy seekers are perpetually frustrated with this process. I believe the crux of this communication issue is: What is the point of contacting a breeder to get on a breeder's list if they might perpetually pass you over for a better option? How long is a person expected to wait before they begin to look elsewhere? What sort of reassuring communication is prudent for them to be receiving while they wait? I have seen breeders on here talk about being upset when they contact a person to offer a puppy, only to find they got a dog elsewhere - well, can you blame them?

To be clear - It's totally okay if that's not how you do things and you don't have a list that you maintain, it's your right to do things however you want and give the puppies to whatever homes you see are the best fit - but that should be clearly communicated. I don't think anybody would disagree with that. So due to a miscommunication, this person has to start all over with their search, and they are rightfully upset about that. So they are told, _again_, "just contact the club in your area and get a list of reputable breeders to contact and keep inquiring" (as though it's that simple - 90% of the breeders on that list will probably delete or ignore the email regardless of the quality of the inquiry). Really this is ironic: the suggested resolution to problem, which results from the fact that breeders are overwhelmed with inquiries and can't keep waiting lists, is to tell seekers to send more inquiries with hopes of getting on a waiting list. It's a catch 22 for all involved.

I believe the reality of this tale lies in the middle - perhaps this person was not as thorough in their communications as they could have been, or had unrealistic expectations, or misunderstood what the breeders told them, misread the situation and were never on a list to begin with, whatever. But also the breeder themself is not necessarily without fault here either, as it's entirely possible that they themselves miscommunicated, or screwed up due to disorganization, or frankly just blew this person off or decided they wouldn't give them a puppy but chose not to tell them. We will never know, but we should not be so quick to assume that either side of this tale is really in the right or wrong. Nobody is infallible.
If I was led to believe I was vetted and on a waiting list, and then I saw that breeder offering up a puppy on facebook, I would indeed be upset, too.

edit: I fear it's a matter of time before breeders come here and claim I am attacking them, as has happened in similar threads before when I've presented a viewpoint that might differ from theirs, so I just want to be clear this is not meant as an attack or a generalization. Just to say that the root of this issue is clear upfront honest communication, as it's pretty clear that is how this frustrating situation could have been prevented. This whole dance of seekers and breeders is challenging for all parties and we should all have more empathy for each other. The breeders should try consciously to not treat people as "just another inquiry" (which yes, they often do), and the puppy-seekers should try to remember that the breeders just have the puppies' best interests at heart (as in, don't take it personally if you don't get picked).


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## gr56 (May 11, 2019)

guyerk said:


> Not the original poster, but I can't even get replies from most of them. I have had phone calls, voicemails, and emails all ignored. The only person who responds is from out of state, and thank God she is helping me. However, I'm still without a pup almost a year later...


So this story isn’t about puppies just about how I got my job. I was consistent to the point that I thought I was annoying.
A contract representative visited my college. We exchanged info. Every couple of months I updated him about my progress in my coursework and I always inquired about a position and environment of future job prospects. I kept emailing about every 1-2 months I was never expectant and appreciated any correspondence. This went on for 2 1/2 years. Out of the blue I got a phone call while in Salvation Army about a possible job, he said he thought to call me because how consistent I had been keeping in touch with him (annoying in my brain). However he pointed out the job didn’t align perfectly with what he thought best for me. So we both agreed we would wait til the perfect position came up. I continued my correspondence and 6 months later I was in my dream job. I beat out people with fancier education and higher degrees. Not to say I wasn’t qualified, but I made sure to make a impression and maintain relations with the person who held the key to opening doors for me. 3 years of emails and correspondence.

Yes it’s hard to wait for the day to come where you will bring home a new best friend but when that day comes the moment will be that much sweeter
Build those relationships.


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## ewokzzz (Aug 31, 2020)

LJack said:


> No, I don’t.
> 
> When I have actual plans I post online. My website, my FB, my Insta, and breeders.net. It is up to those who reached out previously to reach back out at that point. I have never had any issues finding quality homes. There are alway more people looking than well bred puppies available. So, no - no list at all.


As a puppy seeker, I have been told many times that it is inappropriate to message a breeder to ask if there are puppies anytime soon - I am told that the better MO is to attempt to get on a list well in advance and be clear you are not impatient, and you are willing to wait. And be prepared to wait for many months. Now you are saying, that doing it well in advance is useless, and the only way in is to catch you when you have imminent upcoming plans.

Most of the time, when a breeder posts a pregnancy or a planned breeding on their website, there is a note attached saying "these were all reserved well in advance". Yet in this thread, we are told that being "on a list in advance" isn't a sure bet either, as most breeders don't actually keep lists. So which one is it? Obviously, it's different for everybody. Therefore, it's not fair to lambast puppy-seekers for the type or volume of inquiry that they send. Puppy seekers are constantly told we must be doing something wrong - yet the truth is you can do everything right and still not get a puppy because supply does not meet demand. So with this in mind, it really should not be hard to see why a person would be upset that they thought they were on a list, but in reality they were not.

And fwiw, you might be the exception, but most breeders are terrible at keeping up with their websites, and social media is basically just cute puppy photos with comments saying "not available, all spoken for - but look how cute!".

Can you really blame anybody for being so extremely frustrated with the difficulty of this?


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## gr56 (May 11, 2019)

ewokzzz said:


> As a puppy seeker, I have been told many times that it is inappropriate to message a breeder to ask if there are puppies anytime soon - I am told that the better MO is to attempt to get on a list well in advance and be clear you are not impatient, and you are willing to wait. And be prepared to wait for many months. Now you are saying, that doing it well in advance is useless, and the only way in is to catch you when you have imminent upcoming plans.
> 
> Most of the time, when a breeder posts a pregnancy or a planned breeding on their website, there is a note attached saying "these were all reserved well in advance". Yet in this thread, we are told that being "on a list in advance" isn't a sure bet either, as most breeders don't actually keep lists. So which one is it? Obviously, it's different for everybody. Therefore, it's not fair to lambast puppy-seekers for the type or volume of inquiry that they send. Puppy seekers are constantly told we must be doing something wrong - yet the truth is you can do everything right and still not get a puppy because supply does not meet demand. So with this in mind, it really should not be hard to see why a person would be upset that they thought they were on a list, but in reality they were not.
> 
> ...


I mean this in the best possible way if things have become too frustrating, and your in immediate need of a companion please don’t rule out adoption. If you have your heart set on a golden I understand. However there are wonderful shelter dogs/puppies/cats/birds/snakes/ rabbits a friend that maybe a great big sister or brother for your future golden down the line.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

ewokzzz said:


> Can you really blame anybody for being so extremely frustrated with the difficulty of this?


I think everyone in this thread and certainly myself understands the frustration of this. Yes, I am an easy target here because in fairness, my way of doing things is the only one I have control of and therefore the only one I can responsibly discuss. I have made my self visible and it is easy to take potshots at how I do things, which I have admitted is not perfect, just what allows me to function without having to basically work two full time jobs. 

I have no idea who these three breeders are, I have no idea what was communicated. I do know as you did the run down the OP felt they were promised/guaranteed a puppy from three breeders. I don’t doubt that was their understanding but communication is imperfect. What I shared was in the hopes of seeing a breeders perspective of lists and that if that was the only promise, “you are on the list”, that could mean different things to different people and personally why I don’t keep one though other breeders do. That is by no means excusing these breeders if they did make a commitment and then changed their minds, they absolutely should have already reached out to the OP. If that is the case and they waited for the OP to reach out only to ignore the inquiry, that is deeply wrong. 

Yes, I talked about lists a lot because the OP was rather insistent that I have to have a list. I don’t and said so but still was repeatedly misunderstood or maybe they thought I was lying. 🤷🏼‍♀️ Do some breeders have list/pool/spreadsheets/folders, yes. So the suggestion to find a breeder or breeders you like and start a relationship if you will is valid. Is it a guarantee, no.

Truly, I get that it is frustrating. I doubt you are advocating for breeders to just put a number to anyone who contacts them and give them a puppy in what ever order they contacted and regardless of if that contact inspires any trust. It is disheartening though as a breeder who is trying to help people by posting here and helping people on other platforms too, that we are painted consistently as awful people. We are not leaning over our cauldrons cackling about how we are ruining the dreams of others. We are not gleefully stringing along families knowing we wouldn’t place a shoe in their care let alone a living soul. We are not intentionally producing too few puppies or not the right sex. I personally am as dissatisfied 
with this process as you are. So, you (generic you) tell me how do we fix it?

I can share with you the reality of what I as a breeder face and I can see the frustrations buyers face but I have no idea how to fix it. We kind of need to because at some point this issue and being painted as a bad guy for not having a puppy for every “Got puppies, how much?” email may drive responsible breeders to leave breeding altogether. 



ewokzzz said:


> As a puppy seeker, I have been told many times that it is inappropriate to message a breeder to ask if there are puppies anytime soon - I am told that the better MO is to attempt to get on a list well in advance and be clear you are not impatient, and you are willing to wait. And be prepared to wait for many months. Now you are saying, that doing it well in advance is useless, and the only way in is to catch you when you have imminent upcoming plans.


To clarify again, my process is not a catch me, in the moment, Black Friday sales type situation. I tell folks a general idea of when I expect I may have an update and for them to check. It’s also not like I have a 5 minute time frame and if you missed it too bad. Realistically, if someone is really interested in my puppies, I don’t think expecting them to check a website or FB once a month is asking a lot, heck I will gleefully answer follow-up emails even if the answer is still “no news yet”. I am just not willing personally to invest my family time to track down every inquiry and send constant updates when I breed so infrequently. If dogs were my income or my litter average was more than .75 litters per year perhaps I would. At this point gosh I hope you can see through me, I can‘t imagine I could be more transparent on this one breeder’s (my) process.

I do think there is huge value in reaching out ahead of time. Just listen to the communication you get back. If the breeder has a list, clarify what that means and of course get on it, if you like the breeder. If they say no to the list, listen to what they say. It could be they do keep one but it is currently closed/full or perhaps like me they will give you a “check back later” and/or more information on how/when to do that.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

ravi87 said:


> Don’t bother complaining about your breeder issues here, you will just get lectured about how amazing the breeder community is.


That's untrue when it comes to the whole mass of people breeding Goldens in this country. Breeders complain about this forum because they feel criticized. I got emails THIS week from someone we vetted for a person who declined a puppy from that breeders, all the blame on US instead of just doing the right thing.
Good breeders? Maybe that's true. The reason we defend everyone's right to their own process for their own litters has to do with the fact that they likely feel as we do- looking for the best home for the puppies we chose to make.
OP- no one is blaming you but like Dana, I find it odd that there are 3 good breeders who've skipped past you- something must have triggered that. It is probably not anything you realize would worry a breeder, maybe even just a comment taken the wrong way, but breeders do talk to each other and maybe your 3 talked? Maybe it's something as unidentifiable as an action such as Dana saw in the wife of the man she'd invited to her puppy party.


ewokzzz said:


> It is interesting (though unsurprising) to see the breeders so quick to defend and justify this other breeder's actions, to suggest why it happened, and also quick to suggest it is perhaps this person's fault that the breeders are passing him over.
> I believe the reality of this tale lies in the middle - perhaps this person was not as thorough in their communications as they could have been, or had unrealistic expectations, or misunderstood what the breeders told them, misread the situation and were never on a list to begin with, whatever. But also the breeder themself is not necessarily without fault here either, as it's entirely possible that they themselves miscommunicated, or screwed up due to disorganization, or frankly just blew this person off or decided they wouldn't give them a puppy but chose not to tell them. We will never know, but we should not be so quick to assume that either side of this tale is really in the right or wrong. Nobody is infallible.
> If I was led to believe I was vetted and on a waiting list, and then I saw that breeder offering up a puppy on facebook, I would indeed be upset, too.


Firstly, positing possible scenarios is not defending. I apologized for the behavior of the unknown 3 in my first post. The whole FB thing isn't right.
And I agree- somewhere in the middle might be truth. It's not blaming to suggest perhaps there was a misunderstanding, and almost certainly something set at least one of the 3 on 'worry level' for this buyer who presumably was in communication w breeder who offered the pup on FB. I think we all have people we really want puppies for- and I see things on FB and PM the breeder to tell them about the person I feel badly I haven't had a pup for and who would be an amazing home. Never works, pup's always spoken for by the time I see it but I still do that. Maybe the best solution for all would be to ask about the process, ask specifically if one is 'on the list' even if there is no list. And then stay in touch. I don't imagine asking if there will be a pup the week of whelp is a good idea but touching [email protected] that time to say you're thinking of the litter and know breeder is tired but well wishes are on the way IS a good idea. Just be the always there, always supportive squeaky wheel. That doesn't mean 7 weeks won't go by and all the puppies are spitfires when you really need a couch potato, but it's likely in that case your breeder will be asking her peers to find room for you on their litters..
It is a frustrating time- covid did more than just be, and increase interest. It also caused the 2020 to be cancelled which in FL and the SE in general caused breeders to miss breedings. And is going to do same for 2021. Everyone has had to revisit who they are going to 'sacrifice' since perhaps they missed a cycle due to 2020 and then a whole new year has to be considered..more time lost. I didn't word that right but maybe it's clear enough. I know my own girls are only getting older every day- and I've reconsidered the national and breeding this year with just that very age thing considered. I will not have the entries I had planned on for 2020. It's in my town, and had it been last Oct, when I had been working on coat for months and planning multiple entries, a whole different thing than 2021, when I either have to breed my 4YOs or give that idea up forever so they can have coat for 2021 national. Covid has messed with more than just puppies demand and availability for breeders who compete.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

I'm guessing it was this bit that turned people off: 


GoldenRMP said:


> None of these wanted a deposit until a puppy was born. I offered to even pay for it up front.


I don't mean to blame you here @GoldenRMP , but offering to pay upfront would be a turn off to many responsible breeders because it's not about the money. I'm sure you didn't mean it that way and - assuming you're telling the truth about yourself - you sound like a fantastic home, but offering to pay upfront could be seen as throwing money at them to get what you want.


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## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

I'm not sure getting on 3 different breeders lists was a good idea. Good breeders are a tight knit network. If you were on three lists it may indicate that you want "a puppy" not "their puppy". If I was a breeder I would want to know that my puppies were going to homes that valued the time and effort I put into choosing my breeding pair.

I got a puppy this year in June. I don't know exact dates, but I do know I contacted the breeder sometime late summer of early fall of 2019. I was on a list with a particular breeding she had planned. I honestly loved the sire she planed to use. The breeding didn't take. I stayed on the list for the repeat try on the next heat cycle, 6-9 months wait. That breeding didn't take. In the mean time this same breeder did a breeding with a different dam and sire. I had exact qualities I was looking for. I wanted a Male, confident, birdy (from a conformation breeding), great bone and structure. I figured out over all the months I stayed in contact with the breeder that she and I had a ton in common with what we felt the perfect Golden was. Through building this relationship I knew that most likely any breeding pair she chose would produce at least one puppy that met my requirements. During the time I was on the wait list with this breeder I saw at least 3 litters announced that I probably could have gotten on the list for. I had no interest in the other litters because I knew the breeder I was waiting on understood what I wanted.

I guess my point is that I know if I was a breeder I would want my puppies to go to homes that appreciated the effort I put into selection of breeding pairs, traits, my selection process, the work I had put into training and titling my own dogs. When I want to add a puppy to our family I feel I am probably as picky about the breeder as they are about me, but I think it should be that way.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

ravi87 said:


> Don’t bother complaining about your breeder issues here, you will just get lectured about how amazing the breeder community is.


Honestly, have you read anything here in any attempt to see the bigger picture? Anything at all? No breeder is ever given a free ride here. 

The whole point is that these are living creatures and also, breeding dogs is a little crazy. I don't think it would be exaggerating to say that many hobby breeders fall somewhere on the spectrum of "slightly eccentric". Why would you be shocked to find out that they may have a way of doing things that is different than buying a puppy at a petstore where the first person who shows up with cash walks away with a puppy? 

Let me ask you this: Would you be able to sell your dog to someone you've never met just because they have a fenced in yard and promise to walk it every day? Think about that, because it's essentially what you're asking a breeder to do - don't think they haven't developed bonds with these puppies: they have planned the litter - often for years, coddled the mama, delivered each life into the word, nursed them through the nights, watched them take their first steps and evaluated their emerging personalities and you think that cash and a spot in line is all that matters? Is that how you would sell your own dog? Why would you insist they sell their dogs this way?



DanaRuns said:


> ... This is not a business. You are not a customer. *This is me trying to avoid lying awake at night regretting that I gave a puppy to someone and lamenting that dog's life*.
> ....Each little soul is one I brought into the world. It will live a life. That life will be somewhere between desperate and euphoric. I want them all up near the euphoric end.* I have actual nightmares about making a mistake placing a puppy.* I care about their lives when they are tiny puppies and when they are grizzled seniors. My duty is to them. Not you....If I could keep them all, I would. I cannot. So I have to give them the best lives I can elsewhere.


The above from Dana is why I haven't made a foray into breeding. In spite of having a quality dog and quality mentors I trust, I can't stand the thought of making a mistake placing a puppy. 
The fact that some of you don't appear to understand how much a breeder is personally invested in the life of each individual puppy and how that plays out when placing those puppies for life, could be the foundation for why you're not at the top of anyone's list. A few of the attitudes on display here show little understanding of how the human heart works when caring for a helpless and dependent life. It's not a toaster on the shelf at Walmart. If you give off a vibe that you don't get that, then all the money in the world won't fix it.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

gr56 said:


> ...I made sure to make a impression and maintain relations with the person who held the key to opening doors for me. 3 years of emails and correspondence....Yes it’s hard to wait for the day to come where you will bring home a new best friend but when that day comes the moment will be that much sweeter
> *Build those relationships.*


This concept has been covered in a recent thread by Danaruns and it came to light that most people commenting found this idea to be unreasonable. However, you have just described the process of how I have my current Golden, almost to the letter. Bonus points if you have the patience to read the story 

I fell in love with a dog owned by a member of this forum, the dog was handsome and talented but most important to me - he was entirely owner trained and handled to all of his titles. (Surely with genetics like this, I could end up with a puppy whose natural talents and willingness to learn would help cover my shortcomings learning new dog sports.  ) I talked to the owner of the sire and found out about a litter he was siring that was being planned, I 'friended' the breeder on facebook and discovered I loved the look of her dogs and admired her accomplishments with them in field work. It was fun to be a 'fan' of her dogs and applaud their successes, ask questions about their training etc. I spent months doing that, filled out an application to give her my info and when I was on vacation that spring in her state, I arranged to come meet her and her dogs in person and I was lucky enough that the sire and one of his sons came to visit as well. I had fun meeting them all and they could see that I was a dog person in real life sitting on the ground with their dogs and asking questions about health clearances and that even if I never trained my puppy to the levels they accomplished with theirs, he would have a life being loved and made a priority.

Sadly, after waiting several months, the first breeding didn't 'take' and the breeder was busy with her real life job so decided to skip a 'season' so she'd be less busy and I ended up waiting almost 2 years for this planned litter to be born. Still checking in and maintaining the facebook friendships. The day they were born was happy and sad, there were only 3 puppies. 2 girls and a boy. I have always had male dogs and never intended to do anything else. The owner of the sire wanted the boy to keep and I knew that there were other people on the wait list for this special litter that had much more proven experience in showing and training dogs than I did. I was devastated and sent the breeder a 'dear john' email congratulating her on the puppies and thanking her for her consideration but I understood that I would certainly not be getting one. To say I was sad would be an understatement. The next morning she called me and told me she and her husband had talked and they wanted me to have one of their girls. I absolutely flipped. 9 years later, I still count that as one of the very best days of my life. My girl, Ellie, has been a dream come true and she has been worth every minute I waited. The breeder and sire owner have become friends and they really opened up a whole world to me. All because I invested in the ground work of relationships and patience.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Despite the raw talk here -- or maybe because of it -- I think this is a fantastic thread.



ravi87 said:


> Don’t bother complaining about your breeder issues here, you will just get lectured about how amazing the breeder community is.


Are you new here? LOL!  To me, it seems like we are constantly picking breeders apart and trashing them for any failure we can find or any doubt we have. Sometimes there are huge pile-ons against breeders, pages and pages, threads and threads. It doesn't take much looking to find that.

You just sound like sour grapes. I can't recall anyone, any breeder, any buyer, anyone at all lecturing anyone about how amazing the breeder community is. If you can find an example, please enlighten me.



ewokzzz said:


> What is the point of contacting a breeder to get on a breeder's list if they might perpetually pass you over for a better option?


I find this quote super interesting. My first thought is: Why _wouldn't _a breeder pass someone over for a better option? What do you think they _should _do?

My second thought was: Aha! This is a perfect example of the commerce fallacy. You're thinking like a customer who is shopping at a business. And we breeders keep saying this over and over: This is not a business. You are not a customer.

I seriously would like to know what you think breeders ought to do if not go for the better option.



ewokzzz said:


> edit: I fear it's a matter of time before breeders come here and claim I am attacking them, as has happened in similar threads before when I've presented a viewpoint that might differ from theirs, so I just want to be clear this is not meant as an attack or a generalization. Just to say that the root of this issue is clear upfront honest communication, as it's pretty clear that is how this frustrating situation could have been prevented. This whole dance of seekers and breeders is challenging for all parties and we should all have more empathy for each other. The breeders should try consciously to not treat people as "just another inquiry" (which yes, they often do), and the puppy-seekers should try to remember that the breeders just have the puppies' best interests at heart (as in, don't take it personally if you don't get picked).


Not from me. No attacks here. I completely understand the frustration. It's a function of there simply not being enough puppies for all the people who want one. From my perspective, breeders are constantly being attacked because we don't have puppies for everyone.

My solution has been to try to encourage (1) more people to become ethical breeders, and (2) this forum to loosen their death grip a little bit on their strict requirements in favor of a more fluid, more tiered approach. After all, not everyone who wants a perfectly bred puppy will be able to get one. What are they to do?



ewokzzz said:


> Can you really blame anybody for being so extremely frustrated with the difficulty of this?


Nope. I think we're all frustrated. I don't like being attacked because some dude somewhere didn't get a puppy when he expected to. Buyers don't like thinking they are in line to get a puppy only to find out on Facebook that they are not. Valid gripes and frustrations abound everywhere. I just want to keep those frustrations in perspective, and not generalize them to everyone who is a "breeder" or a "buyer." It's a bad situation for everyone.



LJack said:


> It is disheartening though as a breeder who is trying to help people by posting here and helping people on other platforms too, that we are painted consistently as awful people. We are not leaning over our cauldrons cackling about how we are ruining the dreams of others.


Every breeder here -- and especially LJack and Prism -- give tremendous amounts of time and energy trying to help people (puppy buyers) on this forum. And they are far better at it than I am. I mentally check out about the 200th time I see a thread asking about how to interpret clearances, or begging for help with a mouthy puppy. But Laura and Robin and others here have endless patience helping with the same things, over and over, to people who never seem to be satisfied.

And then, of course, for their efforts they (we) get roundly trashed. It is quite disheartening. And for me, at least, it makes me constantly question whether it's worth it to make the effort. Surely it would be more satisfying just to beat my head against a wall or hit my shins with a hammer.



DblTrblGolden2 said:


> I'm not sure getting on 3 different breeders lists was a good idea. Good breeders are a tight knit network. If you were on three lists it may indicate that you want "a puppy" not "their puppy". If I was a breeder I would want to know that my puppies were going to homes that valued the time and effort I put into choosing my breeding pair.


I actually advocate for people to get on as many "lists" (I won't argue the term) as people can. It's a fact that there simply aren't enough puppies to go around.

And while it would be satisfying to my ego to have my buyers completely enthralled to get _my_ puppy rather than _a_ puppy, that's not how most pet buyers work. They see puppies as essentially fungible, and the deepest they look is to seek a particular gender or color. If I asked them what they preferred about my breeding program as opposed to someone else's they wouldn't be able to articulate it. Performance homes can. Show homes can. But for most pet buyers that's an impossible and unreasonable ask.

Besides, it's desperate times. People have to get whatever puppy they can or be left in the dust for being too choosy.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

DanaRuns said:


> I actually advocate for people to get on as many "lists" (I won't argue the term) as people can. It's a fact that there simply aren't enough puppies to go around.


Same here. I have no issues with people talking to multiple responsible breeders. Heck if a peer breeder has space on some sort of list and I think you’re a great home, I’ll reach out to see if I can help you snag that spot. Unfortunately right now the chances for that are very slim. And I whole heartedly agree frustrations abound for all. I wish that were not the case.


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## tobypuppy (Dec 7, 2020)

As a puppy seeking person I see both sides. 
Most prospective puppy buyers just want a healthy pet. Not a show or breeding dog. Most don't care if coat is not perfect color or length, if size is smaller or larger than breed specs, if parents are show champions. 

True to type-function is important. Especially personality and demeanor. And certainly, health clearances are very important. We are probably never going to enter a show ring, compete in field trials or breed our pets. We just want them in our lives.

Perhaps upgrading professional commercial breeders would take up the slack that hobby breeders can't fill. They could offer better puppies, breeding stock with all health clearances and quality facilities. Perhaps they could get some sort of certification if they measure up.

Hopefully something will change, but, telling us to live without a Golden Retriever puppy for months if not years,is not a solution.

Sorrry for any misspelling or typos. Fat fingers.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

I empathize with the OP and feel as though I've now lived on both sides of the coin. COVID aside, I feel for the average family seeking out a golden retriever for a family pet from a responsible breeder or for that matter even being selected by a rescue. After mastering the learning curve of interpreting clearances and wading through the marketing that some breeders dance around the truth, it is still an uphill battle to be the chosen one. We on this forum recommend people reach out to their local golden clubs for a referral. There is no standard between clubs on what a referral constitutes. Some might be willing to refer to club members that have litters with availability or are breeding on a frequent enough of a basis where there is a potential of a pup within a year, others provide a list of club members that are breeders that meet the criteria to be listed regardless whether these breeders are actively breeding. Other clubs may only offer up litters in which a club member paid to have listed, otherwise are only able to refer back to the GRCA website and provide educational material. Nevermind the fact there are a great number of stellar breeders who are not members of their local clubs and if they are, they don't want (need) puppy referrals. Some breeders take offense to people being on multiple wait lists while other breeders encourage it. Some breeders are great at communicating availability others aren't so I understand the mass emails being sent. One breeder recommended on here has a history of taking nonrefundable $1K deposits and then ghosting the families perhaps hoping they move on and cut their losses or perhaps forgot. Now there seems to be a charm school of sorts families need to run through to market themselves or as it seems unless you're a serious enthusiast, you may never find your name drawn. I still remember my first pursuit of a puppy and being left feeling over exposed, bearing my own heart out on paper to tell my story hoping to be deemed good enough. It has become a perpetual game of go fish for those without an "in" and one wrong move and the game begins all over again. However, it's not a game with real people and real emotions involved. While it would be easy to point the finger back at the OP in doing something wrong so as to not being chosen, if you sift through just a handful of threads on this very forum, you'll see the recurring barriers families like the OP face further compounded by barriers breeders face (anti breeder policies/regulations, aging breeder population) and because puppies aren't commodities sitting on a shelf awaiting distribution, there is no easy resolution to the supply/demand dilemma. Having spent the past year assisting a friend with two litters where I was there 24/7 from the first breeding to the birth to the never-ending laundry and poo patrol to the moment the pups were placed into eagerly awaiting arms of their families, I get the emotional attachment and heavy sense of responsibility for these lives I had a hand in bringing into the world. But I also know what it's like to live in a home graced with the thundering pitter patter of golden paws and the glorious feeling of being a golden's chosen person that I find as an enthusiast of the breed a responsibility to help others who desire the same so that they too may have their own love affair.


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## ewokzzz (Aug 31, 2020)

DblTrblGolden2 said:


> I'm not sure getting on 3 different breeders lists was a good idea. Good breeders are a tight knit network. If you were on three lists it may indicate that you want "a puppy" not "their puppy". If I was a breeder I would want to know that my puppies were going to homes that valued the time and effort I put into choosing my breeding pair.


And yet we see here, in this thread, that simply having interest and being vetted is still no guarantee you will get a dog from that person, because they have many others with just as much genuine interest, and that "lists" mean nothing, and beside that we have many other moving parts and factors to consider as well. You could be waiting forever and never get that dog, no matter how chummy and genuine you are or what kind of esteem the breeder holds you in.

I see two conflicting points of view presented here:
1) That you pick a breeder, show a sincere interest, commit to _them_, communicate often, and wait with trust that your time will come.
2) That you are wrong to assume that being in touch, or on a "list", or anything really, will ever guarantee you a dog (and therefore it makes sense to cast a wide net because placing all your eggs in one basket is simply not mathematically reasonable if you ever want to get yourself a Golden).

The only conclusion here is that there is no single way things are done, and once again we see that communication is paramount. We are quick to put each other in groups and paint with wide brushes, but it's not that simple - all breeders are individual people with differences of opinion and circumstances and priorities. Same goes for people who want puppies.

As for fine-tuning the communication on this side of things, it's a fine line between being respectful of the breeder's time, and being the squeaky wheel. And it's impossible to know where that line is when you get _zero_ feedback from the breeders to gauge where you lie on their scale of how your attempts are being perceived. Some would think that perpetually emailing the same person despite never getting a reply is rude - others would commend the perseverance.

I actually think that Dana's suggestion, which I've seen her post elsewhere, of "favoring a more fluid approach", is a really great perspective. My personal experience is that the more I learned and educated myself, the more stringent I became in my search. But then I realized had to temper those expectations if I ever want to actually take a dog home. So constantly moving my own goalpost, telling myself "wow this stuff is really important I'm glad I educated myself", to then, "well I'll probably never find a dog who checks _every_ box, so which boxes are most important?" It's very difficult to navigate. For somebody already steeped in this world, it's an all-or-nothing situation. For the rest of us, we are left to make difficult judgement calls, and with a limited pool of options.

Whenever you ask about a pairing, you are simply told all the ways that they are not perfect and the reasons why you should pass on this litter (No NCL testing, practitioner heart clearance, no championships/titles, etc etc) And of course I don't blame others for pointing out criticisms, and trying to help, and having high standards for themselves and others. It can be extremely helpful in the process of learning about all this and to get the perspective of somebody who wants to truly check every box thoroughly, so I don't mean to sound like I don't appreciate that point of view or the time spent pointing these things out, this forum has been a great resource and learning experience for me and if I post about a pairing I know to _expect_ the more seasoned perspectives to be more rigid. But finding that middle ground is really a challenging task because it's lonely inside that area - unable to have the same standards of the most rigid hobbyists because it's probably never going to happen that way, but above the standards of people who just go to directly to BYBs and don't care to be educated at all. And correct me if I'm wrong but I think Dana is perhaps suggesting that the breeders help people navigate inside that area and assess priorities. Not just for puppy seekers, but for BYBs who have room to improve, and forego the binary "all or nothing" perspective on things. In the long run, this will make things better overall.

My own outlook is fluid, changing from, "I will never go with a commercial breeder", to, "is this a commercial breeder I'd feel comfortable supporting?" The hobbyists sometimes scoff at the suggestion of going to a commercial breeder at all - often saying, "its worth the wait to go with a reputable hobbyist instead" Which brings us right back to where we started - which is that simply "waiting" is likely to be futile, and that it's wrong to think that being on a waiting list means anything at all, because, after all, this isn't a deli.

re: Dana's comment about the "commerce fallacy", we have discussed this previously and you are not wrong, I agree that it's a perspective thing. However I feel like I have to mention that the approach of "getting on a waitlist well in advance and being patient" is literally what we are told, by hobbyists, is the best approach to take. I have seen people say that the only time it's acceptable to go with a commercial breeder is if time is of the essence, and often times, puppy seekers are accused of being impatient. Yet patience is clearly not guaranteed to be rewarded, even if you _also_ do everything else perfectly - because another _more_ perfect home could present itself each and every time.

Which brings me back to the questions I presented in a previous post: at what point, if ever, should a puppy-seeker feel confident they will _eventually_ get a dog from a particular breeder? Where is the line between "being patient" and simply hoping for the best against all odds? What sort of communication is prudent? I know these are questions without perfect answers and difficult for the breeders to navigate as well and I don't mean to imply that breeders are not trying their best - I know they are and this forum has helped me see their point of view. But my point is that, and this might be hard to swallow: it's easy to see how a seeker could conclude that the _logical_ solution to this never-ending uncertainty is to go with a commercial breeder instead, because finding a hobbyist is likely to leave you floundering in perpetuity and never getting a dog. That's not a judgement of how hobbyists do things, but it's clearly just a fact of the matter, and it's unfortunate.

I'll end this post on a positive note to say that over the course of this year I have learned a lot from this community and it's clear the people here truly care and desire to help. Despite the countless hours I've put in to finding myself a well-bred golden and my frustration that I have experienced because, well, my substantial efforts are still fruitless - I appreciate this community, and the willingness of others to generously share their knowledge and perspective. My greatest hope is that once the pandemic is behind us, that this process will prove less difficult, and the time I've spent researching and educating myself will continue to inform me and allow me to participate in this community as a well-bred dog owner, and not just a frustrated seeker adding more tally marks to my spreadsheet where I keep track of the ignored inquiries I've sent out (response rate is around 4%, btw).


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

I'm getting into this a bit late but I agree with the OP. it is getting a bit insane with pricing and the overall interaction with a lot of breeders.

My feeling is most breeders quality hobby breeders will only have 2-4 liters a year. Let's pull the litter sizes on the high side at 10 pups per litter. That's 40 pups max a year. Then let's take out 2 pups/litter that won't be available for general sale to families/people. That leaves 32 pups a year for sale. There is no reason to have any more than AT MAX double that number for wait lists for cancellations or not enough males or females for requests. I mean a list of 150 people is a 5 year wait list for crying out loud. What's the point? No one is going to wait that long for a puppy, they will just go to a BYB before waiting that long (or hopefully another quality breeder).

That said, why are breeders creating wait lists for 150+ people!?!? There are some in here that have stated they have a list that large already. This makes the lists unmanageable and situations like the OPs is the result due to bad communication skills, bad people skills or just not caring enough because they have so many people in a list, who cares if they ghost a few.

It's bad business practice because when the pandemic is over, a lot of people will remember this and skip over them next time.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

ewokzzz said:


> it's easy to see how a seeker could conclude that the _logical_ solution to this never-ending uncertainty is to go with a commercial breeder instead


That might satisfy a lot of puppy buyers, and give them the experience they are expecting. I keep saying "this is not a business, and you're not a customer," but for commercial breeders it _is_ a business and you _are_ a customer. So that might be the best option for folks who want that shopping experience. I'm not sure you're more certain to get a puppy, I just don't know.

One other thing I want to comment on: This whole thread treats hobby breeders as a whole. We are not. We are individuals. I'm sure there are plenty of people who have a "list" and when you get to the top you get a puppy. I'm also sure there are horrible people who will tell you you're getting a puppy and then ghost you. It runs the entire gamut. You cannot extrapolate from one breeder to another. That's also one of the problems with hobbyists.

Besides, hobby breeders are some horrible people in general. Uncommunicative. Arrogant. Vague. Unreliable. It's a truth that many of us get into dogs and breeding because we lack social skills and emotional maturity, and we do much better with dogs than we do with people. Even among each other, it can be quite difficult among breeders sometimes. Keep that in mind when seeking a puppy. You might have to be the one to exercise those superior social skills in order to have a meaningful interaction.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Maggie'sVoice said:


> why are breeders creating wait lists for 150+ people!?!?


I think I'm the only one here who has ever mentioned having 150 people on a "list" (and it wasn't a list, darn it!). So, to be clear:

My last litter was born in July. Before that, during the beginning of covid-19, I and every other hobby breeder in the country was getting 20 or more inquiries _per day. _I took their information, told them about my upcoming litter, and sent those interested a puppy questionnaire. In a few weeks, I was up to 150 puppy questionnaires, and at that point I simply told anyone else who inquired that I wouldn't have any more puppies available until 2022, and I declined to send them puppy questionnaires even if they asked for one. I said, "If you're still interested in 2022, contact me then."

So I had this pool of 150 questionnaires. It's not as if I maintained lists of 150, or took 150 reservations for puppies, or told all 150 they could eventually get a puppy. I had an onslaught of interested people, and it was up that high in just a few weeks, between the day we did the breeding and the day we discovered it took. I didn't want to cut it off in the first week. I had no idea how many of those, if any, would be acceptable puppy homes. I was just being buried in puppy requests.

I do not, and I don't think anyone does, "create wait lists for 150+ people."



Maggie'sVoice said:


> It's bad business practice because when the pandemic is over, a lot of people will remember this and ship over them next time.


It's not a business. And you are not a customer.

And please skip over me next time! LOL! The last 9 months have been an overwhelming nightmare of puppy buyers. Just today I blew someone off, and they wrote back insisting they would wait until 2022 and please could I send them a questionnaire and get them in line now. Plus, breeders aren't going to worry about you skipping over them. We _never_ have a problem finding homes for our puppies. Pre-covid, I had buyers for all my puppies before they were born, and so did every other breeder I know. I could have committed to all of them the day the litter was born. There is _always_ far greater demand than there is supply. It's just incredibly insane during covid-19. Once it returns to normal, it will be just ordinary insane.


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

GoldenRMP said:


> We're getting hung up on this, and its not my issue. What you just described, putting peoples name on a folder, is literally the definition of a list. They have a spot at some point in the future. That's all I wanted to know from these breeders. I understand how they're placed and I understand that having your name in doesn't guarantee a puppy from any one specific litter. Don't have a problem with that. But I bet you update those people that have put deposits down throughout the year, or with each litter. This is the disconnect I'm having. From being told I'm on a list, waiting 7 months and now not getting a response.


Honestly, once a person/family is better and the background checks out, they should be placed in an order of dated added to the list with having being informed that based on the type of puppy temperament being sought and the temperament testing done, that the top of the list may be altered to place the puppy with the right situation.

A place of the list should NOT be just to have a spot sometime in the future. 

I have gotten my last 2 puppies from the same breeder. The first was in 2005 after a handful of calls I was in the list for an upcoming pair and within 5 months has my pup and the last one was 2017 after hemming and hawing over a litter that just landed i called, gave my deposit early October and wasn't guaranteed a pup from the list. Thanksgiving weekend I got a call from my breeder and said I was getting a female (what I requested) and got her on 12/8/17. The dam had 10 pups 3 males, 7 females. I probably got my girl because more wanted makes or because this pup was very pushy and headstrong and the breeder didn't want it to go to an inexperienced family. Either way the breeder was very communicative and placed the pup properly.

This is how it should be communicated to the buyers going on a wait list and how is much easier to handle a wait list that isn't insanely huge.


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## gr56 (May 11, 2019)

Another way to get a puppy.


This might only work if you already have a Golden, or might work even if you don't. Join your local breed club and become active in it. Volunteer for every activity you can, and get to know the other people who volunteer their time. Not only will you have fun, meet people, and do good things...




www.goldenretrieverforum.com





I found this thread interesting but most of you already participated in this conversation and seems like your still having to repeat yourself here but that’s alright I found some of this helpful.


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

DanaRuns said:


> I think I'm the only one here who has ever mentioned having 150 people on a "list" (and it wasn't a list, dammit!). So, to be clear:
> 
> My last litter was born in July. Before that, during the beginning of covid-19, I and every other hobby breeder in the country was getting 20 or more inquiries _per day. _I took their information, told them about my upcoming litter, and sent those interested a puppy questionnaire. In a few weeks, I was up to 150 puppy questionnaires, and at that point I simply told anyone else who inquired that I wouldn't have any more puppies available until 2022, and I declined to send them puppy questionnaires even if they asked for one. I said, "If you're still interested in 2022, contact me then."
> 
> ...


It is a business to a point Dana, you need to sell the puppies. Bad word or mouth can come back to haunt you if your known to just put people in a list and pass over then without communication. You can be as cost was you want to be till a time comes. Maybe that time never comes as there truly aren't many reputable breeders percentage wise. But to say it isn't a business at some level is fooling yourself or the buyers.

And if you're asking me to ship over you... Not interested to in your dogs personally.


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## gr56 (May 11, 2019)

Maggie'sVoice said:


> It is a business to a point Dana, you need to sell the puppies. Bad word or mouth can come back to haunt you if your known to just put people in a list and pass over then without communication. You can be as cost was you want to be till a time comes. Maybe that time never comes as there truly aren't many reputable breeders percentage wise. But to say it isn't a business at some level is fooling yourself or the buyers.
> 
> And if you're asking me to ship over you... Not interested to in your dogs personally.


If I read correctly that wasn’t Dana’s norm. They are explaining what happened to them because of COVID. Trying to offer an insight behind the curtains.
Also I appreciate Dana’s transparency as it offers clarity to the situation at hand


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Maggie'sVoice said:


> It is a business to a point Dana, you need to sell the puppies. Bad word or mouth can come back to haunt you if your known to just put people in a list and pass over then without communication. You can be as cost was you want to be till a time comes. Maybe that time never comes as there truly aren't many reputable breeders percentage wise. But to say it isn't a business at some level is fooling yourself or the buyers.


If only that were true. I would love if bad breeders couldn't sell puppies. And I have some specific ones in mind. But the very worst of the worst breeders still have no problem selling puppies. Indeed, they might be selling them easier than I do. I truly wish that bad treatment of people and word of mouth from that would ruin breeders. That might make us more responsive overall. Unfortunately, that hasn't been the case.

Oh, and I guess I'm fooling myself, then. Because I don't run a business. I don't have a business license, a fictitious name, a corporation, a kennel facility, a resale license, or advertising, or collect sales tax, and the IRS won't let me deduct my expenses. I usually don't make money, I could charge more than I do and still sell every puppy easily, and I can go more than a year without bringing in a penny. If it's a business, it runs at a loss. And I will never have a problem placing puppies. I breed for me, not for money, and I keep at least one puppy from every litter I breed. And if I couldn't sell them, I'd give them away. It's not a business. You're not a customer. It's a hobby like trading baseball cards or collecting stamps. I'd have more money if I never sold a puppy. This hobby costs me money. So I guess I'm fooling myself in your eyes. And I do run a business, but it's a law firm, not a puppy breeding business. I think I know the difference. But maybe I'm just fooling myself.



> And if you're asking me to ship over you... Not interested to in your dogs personally.


Ouch. That seemed unnecessary. That's like me saying to you, unbidden and out of the blue, that I would never sell a puppy to you. Needlessly insulting and adversarial.

But I was using the generic plural "you" when saying skip (it's skip, not ship, right?) over me or someone else. I wasn't talking about you as an individual. As far as I know, you never tried to get a puppy from me. Especially since you're not interested in my dogs, right? I was speaking in general.

I don't think I'm one of those horrible people who doesn't communicate, anyway. I don't know how others feel, though. There are people on this forum who have gotten puppies from me, perhaps they can say whether I'm a bad guy or a good guy in this context. I'm always open to improvement.

But, you know, this conversation has lost interest for me. I didn't come here to argue semantics about business or be passive-aggressively insulted. I'm out.


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## gr56 (May 11, 2019)

So at the end of day 
Puppies< new owners

This word is fully with ambiguity with nothing guaranteed 
I hope we are adults and everyone can balance out the choices you comfortable in making. To each their own. 

Those who are receptive to help I hope receive it. 

For those put off by their experience I hope you remember breeding isn’t a corporate conglomeration and each individual handles themselves differently.

Happy New Year’s Eve 
May 2021 bring you all better days to come


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## GoldenRMP (Dec 30, 2020)

Maggie'sVoice said:


> That said, why are breeders creating wait lists for 150+ people!?!? There are some in here that have started they have a list that large already. This makes the lists unmanageable and situations like the OPs is the result with due to bad communication skills, bad people skills or just not caring enough because they have so many people in a list, who cares if they ghost a few.
> 
> It's bad business practice because when the pandemic is over, a lot of people will remember this and ship over them next time.


Pretty much hit the nail on the head. It’s a gold rush, they have 20 times more customers then possible and then a normal year, so who cares if you bother a few because your so disorganized in the chaos you over promise.

I appreciate everyone’s discussion on the topic. I know none of this has been intentional, but it’s still very-troublesome.


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## ceegee (Mar 26, 2015)

GoldenRMP said:


> Pretty much hit the nail on the head. It’s a gold rush, they have 20 times more customers then possible and then a normal year, so who cares if you bother a few because your so disorganized in the chaos you over promise.


Except it isn't a gold rush, unless you're a commercial breeder with a dozen dogs in your barn, churning out as many puppies as you can and selling them off at inflated prices on a first-come, first-served basis. If that is the kind of breeder you're contacting, then yes, I agree, 2020 has probably been a gold rush for them and they can afford to break promises and treat people badly because the demand for their product has outstripped the supply.

But it simply isn't the case for good breeders who do it right, including Dana and the others who have contributed to this thread - and nor is it the case for any of the breeders I personally have ever interacted with. Their lists for 2020 were full before COVID even hit. So the only difference the pandemic has made to them is in the vast amount of time they have to spend answering "how much are your pups and how soon can I have one" inquiries from people who suddenly want a dog, and want it "now", because that's what you do in a pandemic.

You can't paint all breeders with the same brush. They're just not the same. And it isn't fair to insult the good ones by suggesting that they're no better than the bad ones.


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## SoCalEngr (Apr 11, 2020)

I have been monitoring this thread, but wanted to see how it developed before chiming in (yes, I know everyone was simply waiting around for my sage input 🤣). As a general comment, I believe there is still some level-of-disconnect between the transactional expectations of those seeking to buy puppies and the transactional reality of hobby breeders, both individually and as a group.

The end result is a predictable frustration on the part of those seeking to buy a puppy, exacerbated by the responses from the hobby breeders. Responses which I understand, but are still difficult for puppy buyers to deal with.



GoldenRMP said:


> Again, I’m not here to debate that. Just to vent that for some people it’s more then just a dog, so when these highly reviewed breeders don’t communicate well or simply stop communicating because their inundated with inquires, it’s hard on those that actually deserve one and who have been patient.


This is the only quote that I'm responding to out-of-sequence. The notion that somehow, being "_deserving_" (irrespective of what criteria one uses to establish "_deserving_") somehow translates to "_will get one_". While some might take this as a comment on "_entitlement_", that is not my intent. Rather, it is an observation on expectations. From my experience, these expectations may be rational and realistic...in another context. "_Buying a puppy from a hobby breeder_" is not a context in which "_normal expectations_" translate well. Not saying that this is good. Neither am I saying that this is bad. I am simply saying "_it is_".



GoldenRMP said:


> I completely understand that there is a significant wait time as everyone seems to be buying a dog due to COVID(I'm not), but never in my wildest dreams did I expect these breeders to be so disorganized and downright unprofessional.
> 
> Why cant they just assign a number and update those that are on the list? Its literally that simple. I know things may change somewhat, its part of the breeding, but at least that would give you a ballpark timeframe. Would it really be that difficult to say 'I have X amount of people in front of you.'


I read this as an attempt to project an expectation on a group that is actively rejecting the attempt. There has been some back-and-forth about "_lists_", and I see this as crosstalk on an overloaded term. In some form, I do believe there is a list. But, however it exists (as an actual list, as scraps of paper with names in a folder, etc.), it is an unordered list.

So..."_Would it really be that difficult to say 'I have X amount of people in front of you._" Yes, 100% impossible with an unordered list and folks who reserve the right to deal from anywhere within the deck (no ill intent intended).




GoldenRMP said:


> She knows I would pay whatever price for the right dog.


As has already been noted, this, in-and-of-itself, may cause some hobby breeders to mentally eliminate you as a potential home for their puppy.




GoldenRMP said:


> I understand breeders are getting a ton of Emails and a ton of people changing their minds, but to not maintain a list and communicate that list with those that are on it is insane to me.


Again. "_Lists_" and "_expectations_". It may seem insane to you. It may seem insane to me. But, reality? What you and I think doesn't matter. Like it. Don't like. Agree with it. Don't. "_Doesn't matter_". This attitude may seem harsh, but life gets much better once this reality is accepted and becomes the basis for making decisions.




GoldenRMP said:


> One things for sure, I will NEVER use a breeder that can't articulate how their waitlist works.


Just an observation, but this may severely restrict your options amongst hobby breeders.




LJack said:


> This is exactly why I refuse to keep a list. It would be cumbersome for me, who works a regular 9-5 and the dogs are my passion not income. The word list also creates an unrealistic expectation from buyers that I am assigning them a number and that first come, first served has anything to do with my placement process. I select what I feel is the best home for each puppy. That’s right, I pick the home for the puppy, not the other way around. So the best home could be one that contacted me months ago or one that just reached out today. For me as a breeder it is all about fit. It is not about lists, it is not about money, it is not about putting any buyer desire over what is best for this little life I caused to come into the world.


"_...what is best for this little life I caused to come into the world._" 
This is not the first time I have heard this from a hobby breeder. And, once I accepted that this is "_the only rule that matters to the hobbyist_", everything else falls into place. Then again, we already have Kona, so it's admittedly easier to appear uber-objective about all this when I'm not in-the-trenches still trying to get a golden retriever puppy.




LJack said:


> This different view point may be what is causing your frustration especially with the deli example you shared. Buying a puppy is just not like most other things you vast consumer experience is based on.


Same song. Fourth verse...and chorus. Only 223 verses left to go. Hint...they're all the same.




GoldenRMP said:


> So say you have a 12-18 month waitlist or group of names or whatever you want to call it. You are honestly telling people it could be next week or it could be 18 months I will let you know a week before hand?


I get the feeling you're saying this somewhat incredulously, but...exactly! Especially with the working context of "_unordered list_".




Prism Goldens said:


> It's a serious choice, on my part, of home. I feel a responsibility for every puppy I create. I want the very best life I can get for them.


Same song. Fifth verse...and chorus. Only 222 verses left to go. Hint...they're all the same.




GoldenRMP said:


> But at the end of the day, somewhere there was a list of names that people knew they were on with the expectation of getting a puppy at some point. This is what these breeders lacked.


Ah, that unordered list that seems like it should be ordered. But, again, since it's unordered, being "_on the list_" brings no expectations of any future resolution.




LJack said:


> Regardless of if you agree or not most breeders don’t think of the dogs as a business. This understandably frustrates families looking for puppies because they have a extensive experience as consumers and expect breeders to behave in the same way business do.


Aaaaaaaaaaaaaand...there it is! It's all about "_context_". And we, "_the consumers_", don't establish the context in which hobbyists operate.




DanaRuns said:


> Call it a list if you want, but just because I take your information and interview you doesn't mean you're going to ever get a puppy from me. It's way too early to tell. What I call those applications is "a bunch of people who have asked about getting a puppy from me." Basically a "pool," not a "list." A list, to me, implies some sort of order. Mine has none of that, and it sounds like I'm "on all fours" with LJack in that way.


Hmmm...I think I've heard this before. Maybe elaborated a bit differently, but...oh, wait, that was me! 🤣



DanaRuns said:


> On Mauna Kea there is a grand telescope that can image stars and things in space 12 times better than any previous telescope, ever. On Mt. Palomar there's a more recent telescope that has six times the imaging capability of the Mauna Kea telescope. If you were to put the Mauna Kea telescope inside the Mt. Palomar telescope, you still could not see the amount of interest I have in what you want. My only, my sole, my driving, and my overriding concern is what is the best home for each individual little soul I am responsible for bringing into the world. My duty is to them, not to you. I'll do what I think is best for those puppies, no matter what. And like Laura, I don't care if it's someone who submitted an application 18 months ago or someone who submitted one yesterday, the best home for that particular puppy is going to get it. This is not a business. You are not a customer. This is me trying to avoid lying awake at night regretting that I gave a puppy to someone and lamenting that dog's life.


So...you're saying I have a chance? 🤣😁




DanaRuns said:


> Why? Because I care about the puppies, not the buyers. People find that so hard to understand! And I don't understand why. It's a simple concept. Each little soul is one I brought into the world. It will live a life. That life will be somewhere between desperate and euphoric. I want them all up near the euphoric end. I have actual nightmares about making a mistake placing a puppy. I care about their lives when they are tiny puppies and when they are grizzled seniors. My duty is to them. Not you.


Same song. Sixth verse...and chorus. Only 221 verses left to go. Hint...they're all the same.




DanaRuns said:


> If I could keep them all, I would. I cannot. So I have to give them the best lives I can elsewhere.


This is an extra layer of understanding that really drives home the emotion and commitment behind the hobby breeder that I simply cannot connect to.




GoldenRMP said:


> I was waiting for someone to blame it on me. Trust me there’s zero reason any breeder would hesitate. These dogs are my life. They’re walked daily, have a yard and other dogs around, are never left alone, fly with me, swim in the lake weekly and are pampered to death. Not offended at that possibility though, but it’s not the case.


The reality is that there's at least three (3) breeders who did. Good, bad. Right, wrong. Irrespective. I could opine with many thoughts. I'll run with "for every puppy, there's likely 10's of homes that all offer the breeder an opportunity to frustrate all-but-one".




ewokzzz said:


> But we are overlooking the issue here which is is not the fact that these breeders were unable to accommodate this person - the issue is that the breeders led this person to believe that he was "in line", so to speak.


Having read through the posts, I'll disagree with this sentiment. My belief is that the OP interpreted the situation from their own context, which led to a belief that there was "_a line_". It could be argued that the breeders "_allowed_" the OP to believe this, but an alternate perspective is that the breeders had no reason to correct a perspective that they were unaware existed. Or, I could be complete wrong for these three (3) breeders. But, what I have consistently heard from hobbyists on this forum gives me no reason to believe that I would ever be on an ordered list when working with a hobby breeder.




DanaRuns said:


> My solution has been to try to encourage (1) more people to become ethical breeders, and (2) this forum to loosen their death grip a little bit on their strict requirements in favor of a more fluid, more tiered approach. After all, not everyone who wants a perfectly bred puppy will be able to get one. What are they to do?


That's part of the rationale behind my post about levels-of-risk and mitigating practices by breeders.


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

gr56 said:


> If I read correctly that wasn’t Dana’s norm. They are explaining what happened to them because of COVID. Trying to offer an insight behind the curtains.
> Also I appreciate Dana’s transparency as it offers clarity to the situation at hand


I'm aware that isn't the norm but there are people who will take 70 or 80 on a list. I have seen that in the past.


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

DanaRuns said:


> If only that were true. I would love if bad breeders couldn't sell puppies. And I have some specific ones in mind. But the very worst of the worst breeders still have no problem selling puppies. Indeed, they might be selling them easier than I do. I truly wish that bad treatment of people and word of mouth from that would ruin breeders. That might make us more responsive overall. Unfortunately, that hasn't been the case.
> 
> Oh, and I guess I'm fooling myself, then. Because I don't run a business. I don't have a business license, a fictitious name, a corporation, a kennel facility, a resale license, or advertising, or collect sales tax, and the IRS won't let me deduct my expenses. I usually don't make money, I could charge more than I do and still sell every puppy easily, and I can go more than a year without bringing in a penny. If it's a business, it runs at a loss. And I will never have a problem placing puppies. I breed for me, not for money, and I keep at least one puppy from every litter I breed. And if I couldn't sell them, I'd give them away. It's not a business. You're not a customer. It's a hobby like trading baseball cards or collecting stamps. I'd have more money if I never sold a puppy. This hobby costs me money. So I guess I'm fooling myself in your eyes. And I do run a business, but it's a law firm, not a puppy breeding business. I think I know the difference. But maybe I'm just fooling myself.
> 
> ...


I understand that but charging top dollar and treating people like that will push more people to those BYB when those pups are 1500 or 2000 and not 3000 or 3500. I wasn't being passive aggressive but Peace!


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## GoldenRMP (Dec 30, 2020)

SoCalEngr said:


> I have been monitoring this thread, but wanted to see how it developed before chiming in (yes, I know everyone was simply waiting around for my sage input 🤣). As a general comment, I believe there is still some level-of-disconnect between the transactional expectations of those seeking to buy puppies and the transactional reality of hobby breeders, both individually and as a group.
> 
> The end result is a predictable frustration on the part of those seeking to buy a puppy, exacerbated by the responses from the hobby breeders. Responses which I understand, but are still difficult for puppy buyers to deal with.
> 
> ...


I don’t have the time to rip this apart right now. Just letting you know, I will tomorrow because it’s dumbest thing I’ve read all year.


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## gr56 (May 11, 2019)

Have you guys ever watched the movie Waiting?

If not the first 6 minutes of that movie taught me so much about life lol ahahaha


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## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

GoldenRMP said:


> I don’t have the time to rip this apart right now. Just letting you know, I will tomorrow because it’s dumbest thing I’ve read all year.


ROFL don't care if you're talking to me. Rip away what you think is dumb. Probably forgot more about dogs and goldens then most people will know. Do you realize how much wrong and misinformation is out there and on this site? It's boggling, There is a lot of good too, but just as much the other way.I just gave up and rarely post anymore.


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## SoCalEngr (Apr 11, 2020)

GoldenRMP said:


> I don’t have the time to rip this apart right now. Just letting you know, I will tomorrow because it’s dumbest thing I’ve read all year.


LOL! Can't tell you how much I had hoped this was posted early this AM vice late last PM. Whilst I have a premonition that the overall tone may be somewhat adversarial, I always look forward to an opportunity to view my thoughts through others' perspectives.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I’ve read this thread and I find it interesting how many puppy buyers continue to argue with and question the way numerous hobby breeders say we do things. If the purpose is to vent frustration, I get it. The situation with puppy availability is terrible right now and there are many good homes waiting. Put that on top of a poop show of a year and it ramps up the level of frustration. But if you take a step back and listen (or read carefully,I guess) what the breeders are saying (which I won’t repeat because we all pretty much do the same thing right now and are all overwhelmed) you would realize that arguing with the breeder isn’t going to change the breeders’ response to you - because they are our puppies to sell if we even have them. 

And let me digress for a second on this point. I recently got a particularly nasty email from a person just days after tragically losing a singleton puppy. Not only would I not have had a puppy for this person anyway (there was only 1) but I was then dealing with mastitis in the dam and just generally sad and exhausted. This person was so focused on themselves that the response to my email about losing the puppy was really crappy and in a particularly mean way told me that I should have updated them immediately when the puppy was born. As if this person I’ve never spoken to but I only told to “check back with me for updates” should have been my top priority at that time. I did eventually update people who checked back in with me and I continue to do so, and I understand that people were disappointed by the circumstances. But I don’t breed for “people” I breed for me. So it was sad for me and the co owner of my girl. Just as puppy buyers may think breeders are not being reasonable, please understand that many many puppy buyers also have unrealistic expectations from breeders. We cannot guarantee puppies. We cannot give you a time frame on when we will have a puppy for you. No, you cannot give me a deposit now for a puppy I may never have for you. 

What may help is changing your perspective on this away from a commercial transaction. Commit to developing a relationship with a breeder. I have said this on numerous threads in here. Be willing to be patient and don’t jump from breeder to breeder. I don’t keep a list either but if I recognize your name when you email me that is a start. I have people who are on my radar for the next time we have puppies if they are still looking.

My apologies for the long winded reply but my point is ripping someone else’s post apart isn’t going to help you find a puppy. Listening to the breeders on this thread will.


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## tobypuppy (Dec 7, 2020)

HiTideGoldens said:


> I’ve read this thread and I find it interesting how many puppy buyers continue to argue with and question the way numerous hobby breeders say we do things. If the purpose is to vent frustration, I get it. The situation with puppy availability is terrible right now and there are many good homes waiting. Put that on top of a poop show of a year and it ramps up the level of frustration. But if you take a step back and listen (or read carefully,I guess) what the breeders are saying (which I won’t repeat because we all pretty much do the same thing right now and are all overwhelmed) you would realize that arguing with the breeder isn’t going to change the breeders’ response to you - because they are our puppies to sell if we even have them.
> 
> And let me digress for a second on this point. I recently got a particularly nasty email from a person just days after tragically losing a singleton puppy. Not only would I not have had a puppy for this person anyway (there was only 1) but I was then dealing with mastitis in the dam and just generally sad and exhausted. This person was so focused on themselves that the response to my email about losing the puppy was really crappy and in a particularly mean way told me that I should have updated them immediately when the puppy was born. As if this person I’ve never spoken to but I only told to “check back with me for updates” should have been my top priority at that time. I did eventually update people who checked back in with me and I continue to do so, and I understand that people were disappointed by the circumstances. But I don’t breed for “people” I breed for me. So it was sad for me and the co owner of my girl. Just as puppy buyers may think breeders are not being reasonable, please understand that many many puppy buyers also have unrealistic expectations from breeders. We cannot guarantee puppies. We cannot give you a time frame on when we will have a puppy for you. No, you cannot give me a deposit now for a puppy I may never have for you.
> 
> ...


Again, the problem is too few puppies for demand, not the methods of puppy dispersal. Changing the interaction between those wanting a puppy and those breeding healthy puppies does nothing to solve supply problem. No matter how breeders are approached, most of those seeking a puppy will be disappointed in their quest for a healthy Golden Retriever puppy unless the go to commercial or professional or backyard breeders. This is just what passonate hobby breeders preach against.

Some solutions?
Increase the number of puppies that come from hobby breeders.
Upgrade quality of puppies from commercial/profesional breeders. (perhaps make another level of A
KC registration which include health clearances of parents).
Cease the war against "white" or "European" lines.
Or incourage puppy seakers to choose a different breed.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

tobypuppy said:


> Cease the war against "white" or "European" lines.


What "war"? Does that mean overlook the fact that there are a lack of clearances and health testing and stop pointing out that a "championship" paid for in a weekend with zero competition is the same as an AKC CH? Does that also mean stop pointing out the fallacies in the claims such breeders make regarding foreign = longer lived lives and no cancer? So in other words, as long as you can produce papers citing it's a golden retriever that should be the benchmark for a "responsible" breeder?


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## gr56 (May 11, 2019)

SheetsSM said:


> What "war"? Does that mean overlook the fact that there are a lack of clearances and health testing and stop pointing out that a "championship" paid for in a weekend with zero competition is the same as an AKC CH? Does that also mean stop pointing out the fallacies in the claims such breeders make regarding foreign = longer lived lives and no cancer? So in other words, as long as you can produce papers citing it's a golden retriever that should be the benchmark for a "responsible" breeder?


I think there is no problem joining a line that has been separated for many years .As long as it’s not done haphazardly. However what frustrates many as you say is the marketing attempts made in favor of one over the other.
Also what I don’t think the previous commenter before this one understands the shady sides of breeding.
People will go to Europe or England and get their hands on a dog that has been retired for good reason and then come here and continue to breed them haphazardly under false claims.
Is this every European line? No but it does happens that people need to be cautious of.


tobypuppy said:


> Some solutions?
> Increase the number of puppies that come from hobby breeders.


This comment feels a little reckless. A responsible breeder can not breed to the demand of the consumers demand. As explained many times over. The better option? Have more BYB’s guided under mentorship to begin breeding in a more responsible way


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## tobypuppy (Dec 7, 2020)

SheetsSM said:


> What "war"? Does that mean overlook the fact that there are a lack of clearances and health testing and stop pointing out that a "championship" paid for in a weekend with zero competition is the same as an AKC CH? Does that also mean stop pointing out the fallacies in the claims such breeders make regarding foreign = longer lived lives and no cancer? So in other words, as long as you can produce papers citing it's a golden retriever that should be the benchmark for a "responsible" breeder?


Just the war over color, not poor breeding. White (color) should not disqualify dog from AKC registration or from show ring. Be against bad breeders, not color!


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## gr56 (May 11, 2019)

Biggest problem? 
Consumers have become gluttonous expectant and demanding in a globalized market. anyone want to share examples? I got a simple one ,fruits and produce. How is this of any relation? Well a long time age people had to wait til a fruit was in season. Now we can import whatever we want when we want , no waiting a whole year to enjoy a raspberry. 
We have also become accustomed to sacrificing quality in exchange of price and time. Even worse somehow we think these same rules apply to a living creature?
Our expectations are warped in this world of instant satisfaction.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

gr56 said:


> ....a long time age people had to wait til a fruit was in season. Now we can import whatever we want when we want , no waiting a whole year to enjoy a raspberry.
> *We have also become accustomed to sacrificing quality in exchange of price and time*. Even worse somehow we think these same rules apply to a living creature?
> Our expectations are warped in this world of instant satisfaction.


hahahahaha!! You've just dated yourself  I think you have to be 50 or older to get this. How many people have a clue that produce was such a luxury item. 

It's funny but not only have we become a country who has no idea where our food really comes from but we also have no idea where our animals come from either. Part of the problem with puppy buyers understanding that breeders don't just wave a magic wand and have puppies available is that most of us have no idea that female dogs can only get pregnant when they are in 'season' which is only a very short window approx. every 6-9 months. Most of us don't realize that sometimes they don't get pregnant or they do and then there are only a few puppies. Or how about the reason that dogs have bigger litters is because puppies often die before, during or shortly after birth. A whole litter can be wiped out with one virus that isn't a problem for adult dogs but kills puppies in a heartbreaking few days. I had no idea really before I joined this forum what can go wrong and what breeders deal with. How long it takes to even plan a litter, wait for the bitch to come in season and then wait to find out if she's even pregnant and then wait for them to be born. 

Sadly I also think you're correct that our society has greatly sacrificed quality in so many things for convenience. Those strawberries that come shipped across country from California are no where near the quality you can get during the month of May in South Carolina or this month in Florida. The varieties of tomatoes that ship well have poor taste and flavor compared to the old heirloom varieties. Same thing with clothing, good luck getting a high quality 100% cotton sweatshirt like you could during the 20th century. Clothing is poorly made of synthetic materials now because we wanted cheap fashion. It's awful. I've tried to teach my kids that it's better to have fewer items that are made better. I do think that dogs are a similar idea, if it's worth having, it's worth waiting for.


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## tobypuppy (Dec 7, 2020)

gr56 said:


> Biggest problem?
> Consumers have become gluttonous expectant and demanding in a globalized market. anyone want to share examples? I got a simple one ,fruits and produce. How is this of any relation? Well a long time age people had to wait til a fruit was in season. Now we can import whatever we want when we want , no waiting a whole year to enjoy a raspberry.
> We have also become accustomed to sacrificing quality in exchange of price and time. Even worse somehow we think these same rules apply to a living creature?
> Our expectations are warped in this world of instant satisfaction.


You miss the point, it is not wait time but math, only a few will EVENTUALLY get a puppy from a reputable breeder, the rest will have to get a poorer bred puppy, change breeds or go without a puppy. More seekers than puppies. Answer is not changing seekers gratification but decreasing buyers or increasing puppies.


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## gr56 (May 11, 2019)

nolefan said:


> hahahahaha!! You've just dated yourself  I think you have to be 50 or older to get this. How many people have a clue that produce was such a luxury item.
> 
> It's funny but not only have we become a country who has no idea where our food really comes from but we also have no idea where our animals come from either. Part of the problem with puppy buyers understanding that breeders don't just wave a magic wand and have puppies available is that most of us have no idea that female dogs can only get pregnant when they are in 'season' which is only a very short window approx. every 6-9 months. Most of us don't realize that sometimes they don't get pregnant or they do and then there are only a few puppies. Or how about the reason that dogs have bigger litters is because puppies often die before, during or shortly after birth. A whole litter can be wiped out with one virus that isn't a problem for adult dogs but kills puppies in a heartbreaking few days. I had no idea really before I joined this forum what can go wrong and what breeders deal with. How long it takes to even plan a litter, wait for the bitch to come in season and then wait to find out if she's even pregnant and then wait for them to be born.
> 
> Sadly I also think you're correct that our society has greatly sacrificed quality in so many things for convenience. Those strawberries that come shipped across country from California are no where near the quality you can get during the month of May in South Carolina or this month in Florida. The varieties of tomatoes that ship well have poor taste and flavor compared to the old heirloom varieties. Same thing with clothing, good luck getting a high quality 100% cotton sweatshirt like you could during the 20th century. Clothing is poorly made of synthetic materials now because we wanted cheap fashion. It's awful. I've tried to teach my kids that it's better to have fewer items that are made better. I do think that dogs are a similar idea, if it's worth having, it's worth waiting for.


28 but I always loved the store of why a Christmas orange was such a treat long ago


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

gr56 said:


> 28


I'm impressed, not many younger people understand the context of what a luxury our modern food accessibility is. The fact that it is relatively inexpensive and easy to come by is pretty miraculous.


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## tobypuppy (Dec 7, 2020)

nolefan said:


> I'm impressed, not many younger people understand the context of what a luxury our modern food accessibility is. The fact that it is relatively inexpensive and easy to come by is pretty miraculous.


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## tobypuppy (Dec 7, 2020)

God bless our farmers and todays technology that makes them so capable.
Still, we here in Wisconsin can only get real (local) corn-on-the-cob for 6 weeks a year.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

HiTideGoldens said:


> I recently got a particularly nasty email from a person just days after tragically losing a singleton puppy.


Oh Michelle, I'm so sorry for the loss of your singleton little baby.  And I'm doubly sorry you had to endure that buyer while you were grieving and dealing with a sick mama. If it was before I last saw you on December 6th (when you finished a new champion!  ), I'm sorry I didn't know and didn't say anything.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

tobypuppy said:


> Some solutions?
> Increase the number of puppies that come from hobby breeders.


Well, that one's a non-starter. We have only so many girls each, and they come into season only when nature dictates, and they have only as many puppies as we can help them to have.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

I'm going to add to what has become a rant on buyers, that for the folks I get it appears to be largely a generational thing. The buyers who expect to have all their preferences and wants met tend to be the younger adults. I've had some very strident ones who seemed very entitled and seemed to just want what they want when they want it, and couldn't step back and see any other perspectives. I wonder if it's just a function of how much time a person has been an adult and had to deal with a world that doesn't cater to them, whereas older people have grown used to having to wait, and compromise, and suffer disappointment. Or something like that. But it does seem _generally_ to have an age factor.


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## tobypuppy (Dec 7, 2020)

Of course, understand nature. So what is the solution for those who are not luckly enough to be among the chosed few, switch to cats?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

tobypuppy said:


> Just the war over color, not poor breeding. White (color) should not disqualify dog from AKC registration or from show ring. Be against bad breeders, not color!


Incorrect color for the dogs (See, read, and understand the breed standard for this breed) is a fault - not a DQ.

Although, I would venture to say that if a dog is actually "white" and not a "let's pretend that if this color is not the same shade as paper it's not white" shade of gold, it should be a DQ for a breed that has a specific color stated in the name. 

Currently the only DQ's are for height (over an inch above or below specific heights for dogs and bitches) and incorrect bites (over/undershot and/or not scissors bite). 

There is no reason why people cannot show their dogs - it just costs a lot of money to find and chase judges that would put up dogs with pretty big color faults + it would expose them to the circle of people that GET CLEARANCES ON THEIR BREEDING DOGS.  Not that they do in all cases. There are still breeders who have dogs who fail elbows left and right and or they want to breed the dogs before they turn 2 (and are old enough for clearances). 

If you are against bad breeders - stand with the rest of us and call on people to do better.


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## tobypuppy (Dec 7, 2020)

You bet, I do stand against dogs bred without health clearances.
Also I think that ALL prospective dog owners should be able to get just that. Not just a few. Todays situation will not allow that. Not enough supply. So, again, what is the answer?


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## gr56 (May 11, 2019)

tobypuppy said:


> You bet, I do stand against dogs bred without health clearances.
> Also I think that ALL prospective dog owners should be able to get just that. Not just a few. Todays situation will not allow that. Not enough supply. So, again, what is the answer?


Patients

Educate future buyers and curb expectations 

Encourage commercial and BYB to uphold the requirements set by GRCA

Look into other breeds as you stated

Adopt

No one wants what happened to bulldogs to ever happen to GR.
Breeding the Breed to ruin


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## tobypuppy (Dec 7, 2020)

Why not include heath clearances of parents for AKC litter registration?
Make white color (like Canada) acceptable, make those breeders of white (European) goldens have to compete with rest. Just like field goldens.

Just so you all know, being 76, I have had different breeds. My goldens were out of Chief Sands (many years ago), Topbrass Cotten and a combo of Topbrass and Show. All great hunters, great companions, some with a better off switch. All lived long healthy lives. I also have had Great Pyrenees and Bernese Mountain Dogs. My first Berner was out of Dalleybecks Jackson Eco (Jack) And the last was out of Swiss imports (with Swiss and OFA health clearances). They all lived over 10 years. Finding Berners that were long lived is difficult. With a small gene pool, breeding is important especially since they have become popular. Like bulldogs.

So, I am very much into quality breeding. Has served me well. I have been lucky in that I have had good personal relationships with quality breeders (show and field) and one way or another they always found a great pup for me with fairly short wait times. I have also been very lucky in that I have not had to find a puppy often, just every decade or so. My last dog Harley, a Bernese Mountain dog, went to join the angels just after Thanksgiving. Miss him terribly, just terribly.

I know that the only way to fill the hole in my heart is another dog. Covid and shortage of puppies is causing me some anxiety. And I will have to start over with breeder contacts since my breeder friends, ones still living (lol), have all retired.

I found that the personalities of Berners and Goldens to be similiar and suit me and my wife (and cats) very well. Being older, I decided on a Golden because Berners just get a little heavy (115 lbs to 140 lbs) for me to help getting in and out of vehicles. Also they too, have a supply problem with healthy — not prone to early cancers — puppies.

I hope that I haven't ruffled too many feathers. Wish me luck in finding at least one more great puppy one more time.


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## gr56 (May 11, 2019)

tobypuppy said:


> I hope that I haven't ruffled too many feathers. Wish me luck in finding at least one more great puppy one more time.


ruffles those feathers we all like a stacked GR😉

if your in need of a companion until you find a puppy maybe your old breeders can find you someone to loan you a dog for companionship?


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## SoCalEngr (Apr 11, 2020)

tobypuppy said:


> You bet, I do stand against dogs bred without health clearances.
> Also I think that ALL prospective dog owners should be able to get just that. Not just a few. Todays situation will not allow that. Not enough supply. So, again, what is the answer?


As with most of life's questions, how's about "_*there isn't one*_"? Leastways, not one that is going to satisfy all involved.

From the hobby breeder perspective, a hobby breeder is, first and foremost, a hobbyist. As such, they are immune (ambivalent?) to market demand. Based on comments I've observed, I'd opine that the only demand driving hobby breeders is their own (and, I mean "their own" at the level of the individual hobby breeder, not hobby-breeders-as-a-group). None of this is a knock on hobby breeders. It's just a simple observation of what appears to be an "_as is_" state that is unlikely to change.

Interestingly, I'll offer that increasing the ranks of hobby breeders will actually be self-defeating. Why? Because my assumption is that "_more hobby breeders_" will also mean more hobbyists. So, the internal-demand for puppies from within the hobbyist community will also go up, and we'll be back at the current situation. And, "yes", my observation assumes that the core issue is that hobby breeders do not produce enough puppies to satisfy the non-hobbyist's demands.

Which places the onus on the non-hobbyist puppy buyers. Unfortunately, I will offer that the majority of non-hobbyist puppy buyers are not as interested in things like clearances and CoE guidelines. This is most likely due to "_lack of awareness_", but reality is that "_lack of care_" also has a significant role. More importantly, until the non-hobbyists act in unison (more or less) to demand higher standards and CoE-compliance from non-hobbyist breeders, there's no reason for those breeders to do anything different.

Personally? I am engaging with the breeder/kennel I obtained Kona from. They are a commercial outfit, but need just one-small-tweak to be compliant with the four core guidelines of GRCA's CoE. Encouraging small changes, by those most likely to do so, and then rewarding these changes with commerce, is likely the best course-of-action for non-hobbyists to pursue.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

tobypuppy said:


> Make white color (like Canada) acceptable, make those breeders of white (European) goldens have to compete with rest. Just like field goldens.


Have you read the CKC breed standard?

"Colour lustrous golden of various shades. A few white hairs on chest permissible but not desirable. Further white markings to be faulted except for greying or whitening of the face or body due to age. Any noticeable area of black or other off-colour hair is to be faulted."











The other thing is keep in mind showing in CKC is different than showing in AKC. One is a little easier than the other.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

tobypuppy said:


> Again, the problem is too few puppies for demand, not the methods of puppy dispersal. Changing the interaction between those wanting a puppy and those breeding healthy puppies does nothing to solve supply problem. No matter how breeders are approached, most of those seeking a puppy will be disappointed in their quest for a healthy Golden Retriever puppy unless the go to commercial or professional or backyard breeders. This is just what passonate hobby breeders preach against.
> 
> Some solutions?
> Increase the number of puppies that come from hobby breeders.
> ...


Well that is not what the OP of this thread said. But to address one of your points, I’m under no obligation to breed my girls to satisfy market demand. And no reputable breeder would do so. 

if these are the solutions to the problem though, then why don’t you become a reputable breeder and help solve the problem?


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## pawsnpaca (Nov 11, 2014)

tobypuppy said:


> Just the war over color, not poor breeding. White (color) should not disqualify dog from AKC registration or from show ring. Be against bad breeders, not color!


I've been an active member on this forum for quite a few years and I haven't seen anyone having a "war" over color. Per the breed standard, Golden Retrievers should not be white. As in... if they are truly "white," they are likely NOT purebred golden retrievers! The AKC does not care what color your golden is, as long as the breeder submits paperwork claiming two Golden Retriever parents who are also registered with the AKC. As far as I know, color also will not disqualify a Golden in the show ring... as long as they are registered and clearly only a very light shade of gold rather than truly white. I agree some JUDGES can be somewhat biased against light dogs in the U.S., (which is why some breeders of the lighter colored dogs will go to Canada to compete instead), BUT there is nothing in the breed standard that says medium or dark coats are preferable to light coats.

The reason we jump all over some breeders of "English Cremes," "English Creams," "White Goldens," etc is because the breeders who breed and advertise dogs described this way are almost always NOT adhering to the GRCA Code of Ethics. They also tend to get their breeding stock from Ukraine and other eastern European countries where historically breeding stock does not undergo the kind of extensive health testing that is done in the US by reputable breeders. So. we tend not to trust any health clearances done in Europe unless it is redone here in the US and posted to OFA (and then, still, we don't have the depth of knowledge about that dog's ancestors who are still in Europe). These breeders also tend to make unsubstantiated claims about European dogs being healthier or having lower cancer rates and they use that as a marketing ploy to feed off people's fears.

For those who love the look of the lighter golden with the stockier build that is typical of European goldens, there are plenty of reputable breeders who are breeding this type of dog, AND doing well in the breed ring (either here or in Canada... or both). For example, check out this thread... Ethical "English Creme" breeders


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## tobypuppy (Dec 7, 2020)

HiTideGoldens said:


> Well that is not what the OP of this thread said. But to address one of your points, I’m under no obligation to breed my girls to satisfy market demand. And no reputable breeder would do so.
> 
> if these are the solutions to the problem though, then why don’t you become a reputable breeder and help solve the problem?


At my age it would not be fair to start an endeavor such as that. But if I could maybe that would not be such a bad idea. I think one of my goals in breeding any dogs would be to spread the joy of a well bred puppy to others, not just to breed that one show stopper. Hopefully I would at least be open to different ideas other than my own.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

tobypuppy said:


> At my age it would not be fair to start an endeavor such as that. But if I could maybe that would not be such a bad idea. I think one of my goals in breeding any dogs would be to spread the joy of a well bred puppy to others, not just to breed that one show stopper. Hopefully I would at least be open to different ideas other than my own.


Well that’s awfully presumptuous of you, as you don’t actually know any of us at all. When you learn that every litter puts your own loved girl at risk you might change your tune about breeding your own dogs just to produce puppies. It is not all fun and puppy breath. But the joy we see in our puppy homes is part of what makes taking the risk worth it.


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## tobypuppy (Dec 7, 2020)

HiTideGoldens said:


> Well that’s awfully presumptuous of you, as you don’t actually know any of us at all. When you learn that every litter puts your own loved girl at risk you might change your tune about breeding your own dogs just to produce puppies. It is not all fun and puppy breath. But the joy we see in our puppy homes is part of what makes taking the risk worth it.


OK consider me put in my place. I don't you and you do not know me. And I have bred one of my own, but that was generations ago. I was only trying to insert some ideas, ideas from a different view. 

I have had such great dogs, saw me through tough times. Only wish that for all dog owners, not for just a few.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

tobypuppy said:


> OK consider me put in my place. I don't you and you do not know me. And I have bred one of my own, but that was generations ago. I was only trying to insert some ideas, ideas from a different view.
> 
> I have had such great dogs, saw me through tough times. Only wish that for all dog owners, not for just a few.


The purpose is not to put anyone in their “place”. I think sharing viewpoints is helpful but it’s never helpful to make assumptions about one another. If you read my original post in this thread it was responding to the “ghosting” and lack of responses from breeders. I was trying to give context to that.


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## Debsunshine58 (Apr 24, 2020)

I understand your frustration. Breeders are like rare book dealers I work with ! They are weird ! I am picking up a puppy at tri Golden’s in Tennessee in a few days . I’ll see how it goes . At least they seem normal . Boy i have had some bad experiences ! Big fat excuses . Some play in your heart strings . This is wrong . I put down a $300 deposit and waited almost a year . But I knew that . I had a 30 day delay . Not bad . You are exactly correct in your description. You seem like a good person with integrity and good character . Unfortunately you will find out not all people have these same qualities . And YES breeding is hard work so is everything in life ! Keep the faith !



GoldenRMP said:


> I've been looking for a male golden for about 9 months now. Back in June, I narrowed down the search to 3 breeders that all have very high reviews on here.
> 
> I spoke with all 3 at the time, completed their applications, got on their 'List' and waited. About 3 months after, I followed up just to confirm I hadn't been forgotten and to see if they had spring litter plans. The responses I got at the time should have scared me away as all three called the situation 'Fluid' and were unsure of where I fell on the list or even how many people were in front of me and one had even 'lost' my application. I thought, OK whatever I know its hectic right now but at least they responded and I'm still probably on their list. One even replied that It was possible I could get a male from a litter in Oct. Well she only had 3 males, but at least I must be close, Right? RIGHT? That was 2 litters ago and she completely ghosted me....
> 
> ...


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## WesNH09 (Sep 26, 2014)

GoldenRMP said:


> I just started to after realizing these breeders weren't getting back to me. What's to say the issue wont happen again and now I'm 7+ months behind. If I wanted a dog in 3 years, I'd just wait 2 and then apply because once this Covid mess is over I can't imagine there will be any sort of demand for a decade.
> 
> One things for sure, I will NEVER use a breeder that can't articulate how their waitlist works. I just lost one of mine, so I'm already down about that. Now finding a puppy has become this never ending competition and has really taken any sort of joy out of the process. 2020 just sucks.


As an occasional breeder I understand - the application process can be overwhelming on my end - and far too many applicants are obnoxious ! You are correct to avoid anyone that can't clearly lay out the process or keep you updated on your application. 

Find some other breeders and try again - hoping you have much better luck !


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## Debsunshine58 (Apr 24, 2020)

GoldenRMP said:


> I've been looking for a male golden for about 9 months now. Back in June, I narrowed down the search to 3 breeders that all have very high reviews on here.
> 
> I spoke with all 3 at the time, completed their applications, got on their 'List' and waited. About 3 months after, I followed up just to confirm I hadn't been forgotten and to see if they had spring litter plans. The responses I got at the time should have scared me away as all three called the situation 'Fluid' and were unsure of where I fell on the list or even how many people were in front of me and one had even 'lost' my application. I thought, OK whatever I know its hectic right now but at least they responded and I'm still probably on their list. One even replied that It was possible I could get a male from a litter in Oct. Well she only had 3 males, but at least I must be close, Right? RIGHT? That was 2 litters ago and she completely ghosted me....
> 
> ...


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Debsunshine58 said:


> I understand your frustration. Breeders are like rare book dealers I work with ! They are weird ! I am picking up a puppy at tri Golden’s in Tennessee in a few days . I’ll see how it goes . At least they seem normal . Boy i have had some bad experiences ! Big fat excuses . Some play in your heart strings . This is wrong . I put down a $300 deposit and waited almost a year . But I knew that . I had a 30 day delay . Not bad . You are exactly correct in your description. You seem like a good person with integrity and good character . Unfortunately you will find out not all people have these same qualities . And YES breeding is hard work so is everything in life ! Keep the faith !


Sigh... a puppy IS after all the goal but it is a shame this breeder doesn't have full clearances Opal- has no OFA record for heart/eyes, her dam has no OFA record and her sire appears to have failed hips. 
Naga- the other litter there- no OFA record at all. 

Genetic testing isn't enough. It just isn't .


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## cjnees (Nov 20, 2019)

GoldenRMP said:


> I've been looking for a male golden for about 9 months now. Back in June, I narrowed down the search to 3 breeders that all have very high reviews on here.
> 
> I spoke with all 3 at the time, completed their applications, got on their 'List' and waited. About 3 months after, I followed up just to confirm I hadn't been forgotten and to see if they had spring litter plans. The responses I got at the time should have scared me away as all three called the situation 'Fluid' and were unsure of where I fell on the list or even how many people were in front of me and one had even 'lost' my application. I thought, OK whatever I know its hectic right now but at least they responded and I'm still probably on their list. One even replied that It was possible I could get a male from a litter in Oct. Well she only had 3 males, but at least I must be close, Right? RIGHT? That was 2 litters ago and she completely ghosted me....
> 
> ...


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## Debsunshine58 (Apr 24, 2020)

Debsunshine58 said:


> I understand your frustration. Breeders are like rare book dealers I work with ! They are weird ! I am picking up a puppy at tri Golden’s in Tennessee in a few days . I’ll see how it goes . At least they seem normal . Boy i have had some bad experiences ! Big fat excuses . Some play in your heart strings . This is wrong . I put down a $300 deposit and waited almost a year . But I knew that . I had a 30 day delay . Not bad . You are exactly correct in your description. You seem like a good person with integrity and good character . Unfortunately you will find out not all people have these same qualities . And YES breeding is hard work so is everything in life ! Keep the faith !





Prism Goldens said:


> Sigh... a puppy IS after all the goal but it is a shame this breeder doesn't have full clearances Opal- has no OFA record for heart/eyes, her dam has no OFA record and her sire appears to have failed hips.
> Naga- the other litter there- no OFA record at all.
> 
> Genetic testing isn't enough. It just isn't .


it’s okay 
I’ll not looking to breed my puppy 
I just will love my puppy ❤
Thanks for vote of confidence ha !


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## cjnees (Nov 20, 2019)

Go to Golden Retriever Rescue, or try Save a Golden. You will be so happy that you did😍


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

Debsunshine58 said:


> it’s okay
> I’ll not looking to breed my puppy
> I just will love my puppy ❤
> Thanks for vote of confidence ha !


That's not why it's important (and recommended by our breed club) for breeding pairs to have clearances... it's to reduce the risk to the offspring, that lovely puppy you want to just love. But as the forum has driven home, time and time again, recently, you the buyer are responsible for knowing the risks and being comfortable with the risks you take with whatever breeder you choose. I wish you the best of luck with your puppy and I hope they live a long and healthy life and grace you with many years.


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## Debsunshine58 (Apr 24, 2020)

Debsunshine58 said:


> it’s okay
> I’ll not looking to breed my puppy
> I just will love my puppy ❤
> My friend got her puppy from the same place he’s 7 now the most healthiest golden she has ever had !
> Thanks for vote of confidence 🙏


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## Magnificent Max's Mom (Jun 10, 2020)

DanaRuns said:


> Random thoughts from my two functioning brain cells:
> 
> Call it a list if you want, but just because I take your information and interview you doesn't mean you're going to ever get a puppy from me. It's way too early to tell. What I call those applications is "a bunch of people who have asked about getting a puppy from me." Basically a "pool," not a "list." A list, to me, implies some sort of order. Mine has none of that, and it sounds like I'm "on all fours" with LJack in that way.
> 
> ...





DanaRuns said:


> Random thoughts from my two functioning brain cells:
> 
> Call it a list if you want, but just because I take your information and interview you doesn't mean you're going to ever get a puppy from me. It's way too early to tell. What I call those applications is "a bunch of people who have asked about getting a puppy from me." Basically a "pool," not a "list." A list, to me, implies some sort of order. Mine has none of that, and it sounds like I'm "on all fours" with LJack in that way.
> 
> ...



I think this was beautifully explained by Dana Runs. It actually brought tears to my eyes because it makes me realize how deeply a conscientious breeder loves the Golden Retriever. This is a good discussion because it explains to all of us (buyers) what the process is - after all, how would we know? As a buyer, we just know we are yearning for a puppy and have a wonderful home and life to give it. So I am happy for what Dana Runs wrote and so many other breeders on this site. But I also have empathy for Golden RMP. When I was looking for a Golden in January, I focused on 4 different breeders. That seemed like a "fair" amount to be inquiring about a puppy, and not be a pest to everyone out there. Two of the breeders' web sites said, "puppies are here"......So I thought (without reading any version of Dana Runs most recent post - I wasn't on the Golden Retriever Forum at that time) I would fill out their application - as their sites invited me to do so. Two months later, one site still said, "puppies are here". What? Confused.....Is this an old site....Is she still breeding? Are there more puppies now? Did she not like my completed form?
When I completed these forms, I put my heart and soul into it. I explained all about my family, my home, my circumstances, my previous Goldens - the beauty and the heartaches....and all the love my family had to give to this puppy I was yearning for. No response - ever. I called a previously used breeder - No response - ever. (that's 3 no responses and yes, some did have a Facebook with periodic changes of pictures and puppies......making me think they still were in fact breeding.) You have to realize that to those of us looking for a puppy, we don't know if you are still breeding - when there is absolutely no interaction, no response, what are we to think? We are not trying to pressure you or disrespect your process - but we just don't know what to think. Should I move on? Should I allow more time? Did you even get the questionnaire I completed? Is the data on your website even current? Seems like many breeders are no longer breeding.....We don't know what to think and our hearts are aching for a Golden Retriever - as only a Golden Retriever parent would know. Now Golden RMP had gone further along in the process than I did - and still has come up with no hope. I can understand why she/he is frustrated. It is degrading to someone inquiring to not receive a reply of some sort (as was the case with me). None of the breeders explained anything like Dana Runs. That certainly would have taken the wind out of my sails - but would have made me realize there would be a longer than expected wait. The reality is that there are just so many people wanting a dog now. Even the Golden Rescue has only a few dogs (Last time I looked.) People are really hungry for Golden companionship - after all, there's a lot of ugliness going on in our world right now. All I will say is that a breeder should say - right upfront - I usually have 48 people wanting a puppy and only 12 born per year. Or, I'm sorry, I won't be able to help you. We just don't know about your world. And there was a day when you could get a Golden Retriever much sooner. So there are 2 sides to the story - and I do believe that breeders could be a little more upfront about what is going on. I remember spending past midnight completing applications......and then looking every day for a response - no current phone number for some breeders.....It is very frustrating for us. And yes, I was using GRCA sites. I got the impression that many were no longer breeding. Again, very frustrating because you want to choose a good breeder, but nothing seems like it's happening out there. Luckily, I finally did get a response from a good breeder and we have our Golden - who is wonderful. So that made my wait 4 months. But even that breeder did not contact me until the puppies were close to being born. It's just not something you can rush - I understand - but a more respectful response would be appreciated.


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## MissmyKona (Dec 31, 2020)

gr56 said:


> Please follow the advice below no one will blame you . Get yourself lined up with 25 breeders.College applicants don’t just apply to Harvard Oxford and Princeton. Cast your net and cast it wide.


I've been looking for a male pup for almost a year after losing my beloved golden a year ago. I have no other dogs, so the house is empty, as is my heart. I loved my dog as though he were my child. In fact, I moved to this house because I knew it would be better than my old house for my dog. He was well trained (Canine Good Citizen), and my world revolved around him. I've reached out to GRCA contacts in my state and area for referrals. Only 1 or 2 have responded. Thankfully, 1 from out of state has been trying to help me. However, I have contacted more than 75 breeders and have probably filled out almost as many applications. (I keep a spreadsheet.) I have also opened up my search area. It hasn't helped. I'm on a number of "lists," and I still don't know when or if I'll get a puppy. I was offered a couple of puppies during this time, 1 without knowing I was on the list, but they were not from reputable breeders. So, I had to decline, which broke my heart because of how much I want a puppy. Every time I get my hopes up when learning a litter from a reputable breeder is being born, my heart gets broken again when I don't get one. Sometimes, I have only found out after the fact that they are all spoken for when I reach out to check in. It is really hard right now for those of us who are searching. I don't know if I'll ever be able to have just one golden in the house after this. I waited 10 years for my first one, and if I have to go through this again when I lose my next one, I don't know if I can. (Hopefully, a pandemic won't be causing problems at that time, but still.) Good luck to all of us. I'm sorry you're in this position, too.


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## Dogsport (Mar 8, 2020)

I haven’t read all the posts in this thread but want to comment because I have a slightly different perspective. When I’ve rushed into getting a puppy before I’ve made mistakes or not spent enough time looking. This isn’t a good time to find a puppy. If I wanted a dog in the next few weeks or months, I would contact every breeder and ask if they have a list for older puppies that were returned who didn’t work out for good reasons (health of owner, loss of income, lack of time) and be more flexible than only wanting a new puppy.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

A message for all the poor souls currently trying to get a Golden Retriever puppy:

*THERE ARE NO ETHICALLY BRED GOLDEN RETRIEVER PUPPIES AVAILABLE IN THE UNITED STATES.*​
I mean, I can't say that there are zero. But for all practical purposes, the supply has simply run out. You think toilet paper was tough in March 2020? That was easy compared to Golden puppies. Unless you are somehow very, very lucky, most buyers are going to have to go to their Plan B. You can rant against breeders all you want, it's not going to change anything. We've had such a tsunami of inquiries over the last 10 months that it has just sucked availability dry. And it will take some time for it to reset.

My best guess would be that puppy supplies will return to normal sometime in 2022.

This is the new reality. I wish it were otherwise.

So, what's your Plan B?


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

This thread has been quite the read.

I may sound like I'm kissing up, but I don't spend a lot of time caring what people think about me.

I am thankful:

1) To have found a very knowledgeable breeder who cares very much where she places her puppies. Plus, I liked her when I met her. Not weird (lol) -- I found the statement "breeders are weird" to be weird. What a generalization!;

2) To have found a breeder who gave me a lot of information, kept me updated with emails and videos throughout the waiting process, and who has been available when I have questions;

3) To have found a breeder who has done so much study/research and puts all of her knowledge into making sure the sire and dam chosen are a good mating in terms of health and maintaining the breed standards; and

4) To have found a breeder who is interested in the dogs beyond the breeding process -- involvement with the GRCA, conformation, field trials, rally, agility, etc. I think if you love dogs, you want them to be happy and have purposeful lives.

If I used incorrect terms in the above, my apologies.

I was thinking as I read this thread the breeders who do care, are knowledgeable, put tons of time into breeding, and do everything they can to maintain the integrity of the breed probably feel somewhat anxious (correct me if I'm wrong) about every placement if they are dealing with someone they don't know personally. As was mentioned -- these aren't products (my husband is a car dealer -- he sells products), they are beautiful living beings who are totally dependent on their caretakers. All the breeders can do is try their best to make an assessment before they entrust each puppy to an individual. What a responsibility.

A couple of more things -- someone back in this thread mentioned breeders just pushing people towards backyard breeders. That's bull. People are responsible for their own decisions, so if someone goes to a backyard breeder due to frustration and impatience, that's on them and them alone.

Debsunshine -- health clearances matter. Genes matter. The integrity of the breed matters. Future generations of puppies are affected by unethical breeding. GRCA Health Screenings

In summary, I never think it's a good idea to bite the hand that feeds you. Do your research and ascertain proper health clearances. Patience is a virtue -- Goldens are well worth the wait. Don't choose BYBs. Live up to what your dog deserves.


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## StarBright (Nov 11, 2015)

I understand your frustration. Getting a pup can end up being very frustrating. I lucked out with my most recent. The litter was already a couple weeks old when posted and somehow I got on the waitlist for 1of 3 girls. I didn’t know if I was to be 1st or 2nd pick, though really any of the 3 would have been great. I got my girl and all went quick and perfect. The pup before this went not so well. Several breedings were planned for a breeder I had previously used. Some of the litters didn’t take, though they weren’t what I was looking for. But when one finally did take it seems everyone was moved to that wait list even though very different type than the other two breedings, show, field... I was very interested since this was the type I had hoped to get a girl pup from. But with the bigger wait list, it was wait and see how many pups were born. The litter was all boys. After much back and forth, both myself and the breeder, I did end up getting one of the boys. But it was all a very negative experience. One I probably should have passed on. Though I love my boy very much. I don’t think I will go through that again. I was so very lucky with the way my girl worked out. Hopefully the goldens I have now will live long into their senior years so I won’t need to be be looking again. We usually also adopt non purebred dogs needing rescue so that will be the route we take from now on.


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## goldens9 (Apr 7, 2020)

Our friends just purchased a pure bred golden retriever at *puppyfind.com* Search and research the breeder. Ask for pics of the parents, any clearances, pedigree, breeder history, pics of the parents in the show ring, etc...As usual it is buyer beware, do your own research.


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## Missmcbeth (Mar 16, 2019)

DanaRuns said:


> Random thoughts from my two functioning brain cells:
> 
> Call it a list if you want, but just because I take your information and interview you doesn't mean you're going to ever get a puppy from me. It's way too early to tell. What I call those applications is "a bunch of people who have asked about getting a puppy from me." Basically a "pool," not a "list." A list, to me, implies some sort of order. Mine has none of that, and it sounds like I'm "on all fours" with LJack in that way.
> 
> ...


I have no insights to add to the conversation other than to say that I am currently in line at a deli counter myself and hoping for the best but..the joke about the telescopes... completely unexpected and hilarious! 🤣


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## MyWayGoldens (Dec 31, 2020)

DanaRuns said:


> A message for all the poor souls currently trying to get a Golden Retriever puppy:
> 
> *THERE ARE NO ETHICALLY BRED GOLDEN RETRIEVER PUPPIES AVAILABLE IN THE UNITED STATES.*​
> I mean, I can't say that there are zero. But for all practical purposes, the supply has simply run out. You think toilet paper was tough in March 2020? That was easy compared to Golden puppies. Unless you are somehow very, very lucky, most buyers are going to have to go to their Plan B. You can rant against breeders all you want, it's not going to change anything. We've had such a tsunami of inquiries over the last 10 months that it has just sucked availability dry. And it will take some time for it to reset.
> ...


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## MyWayGoldens (Dec 31, 2020)

Agree with Dana. I wish it was a very different situation in so many ways but it's not. 

All reputable breeders have been so overwhelmed and we just can't keep up with the demand. The reputable breeders will not breed underage dogs, they will have full clearances and genetic testing done not just on their current bitches and stud dogs but for generations too. 

Reputable breeders are also weighing out vet care during this covid crisis. We are trusting our dogs and puppies to go in without us. We are concerned also what if vet team gets covid and we have to send our girls in to ER vet we have no relationship with. Who will take care of our bitches and litters if we get sick or worse yet get hospitalized or die? 

Do you really think these ethical reputable breeders take any of these lightly? Do you think we are a bunch of unsesitive folks? Not just for our bitches and puppies that we have spent 20 30 years or more building our programs or those folks that are wanting a puppy from this group of ethical reputable breeders that we really are insensitive or uncaring? 

We do care. We do hear you all and yes doing our very best to be persurvist of this wonderful breed. 

I love Dana's term of a tsunami very fitting.


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## tobypuppy (Dec 7, 2020)

Once the border with Canada opens up (soon I think) maybe make another avenue for puppy seekers to go to.


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## Magnificent Max's Mom (Jun 10, 2020)

MyWayGoldens said:


> Agree with Dana. I wish it was a very different situation in so many ways but it's not.
> 
> All reputable breeders have been so overwhelmed and we just can't keep up with the demand. The reputable breeders will not breed underage dogs, they will have full clearances and genetic testing done not just on their current bitches and stud dogs but for generations too.
> 
> ...



My suggestion since you all have such good intentions (which I'm sure you do) while breeding is to spell it out on your web sites. If the buyer knows what to expect when looking at your web site, it will quell the storm. People will know right up front what they can expect. Also, there is nothing wrong with saying to a potential buyer: "While you meet many of our requirements for placing one of our puppies in your home, we have others that more closely resemble the type of placement we are looking for.....we wish you luck as you continue to search for a puppy." Or, "Thank you for your inquiry....we are very much backlogged with our puppy demand right now so we are not taking any additional applications. You can check back on our site at a later date when this situation might change and we will post that information accordingly. Thank you for your inquiry." What would be wrong with that? Instead, people complete 50 applications - all a bit different and spend a lot of time and emotion doing so. You can make up some standard responses, and simply cut and paste and use them so that the potential buyer knows what to expect and can move on with dignity. You may be the breeder and spend a lot of effort being so, but we are the ones who will love the dog for 10-13 years. We are very important.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

I'm gonna need to quit my full-time job to make buyers happy.


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## MyWayGoldens (Dec 31, 2020)

I do have posted on my website in red in bold print in a few areas that I will not have any available till 2022. I still get between 5 and 10 emails daily. And yes I still try to respond to each one but work full time, am the POA to one of my original mentors who has gone through a horrible health crisis over the last few months and is a full time job in its self, have a family and my dogs. There are just not enough hours in the day to doy best right now with responding in a timely manner unfortunately. So yes responding to the demand is the least of my worries and concerns right now. 

In emails and in my closed fb I am still responding and reminding where I stand. And still the request are pouring in. Yes I do cut and paste, yes I have a standardized email to send but you all want a personal touch too but this all takes time too. 

I know many many ethical reputable breeders all in the same boat and doing their very best to balance all the demands of life and yes future puppy owners. 

Unfortunately Max's mom this is a huge huge storm we are in the mist of. We are human too. We do need to eat and sleep from time too on top of our other responsibilities. We are not denying that puppy owners are not doing their do diligent too. We do hear your concerns. 

A big part of the issue is that pressure needs to be put on those that are not following the code of ethics to become ethical reputable breeders.


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

I love that photo MyWayGoldens. Beautiful. I’m glad you brightened her day.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Magnificent Max’s Mom, that is pretty much what I do. Yet, several people earlier on in these posts expressed that they would have no desire to work with a breeder who does work like that. There seems to be people who want breeders who let them complete applications and make deposits months or years in advance. I don’t know why but my way of doing things as imperfect as it is, has been deemed undesirable. Or perhaps the undesirable part is that I don’t have 10-30 puppies a month that I am trying to find homes for, nor for the record do I want to.

How often do I feel people actually read my website where I have my process completely laid out? Almost never. Often people spend exactly enough time on my website to find my contact me option.

My website is pretty much everything any buyer would need to know but that is not stemming the tide of inquiries and questions. Sure, I could do what some others have done and completely remove my contact information but, personally I feel an educational responsibility which I can’t do if I make myself unreachable.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

This is on my website.









And this is pinned to the top of my Facebook page.









And of course you can see the message at the bottom of every post I make here.

Yet I still get _multiple_ inquiries per day.

I continue to respond to most emails, but it's fairly terse and discourages further communication. With all the notices I give, and all the volume we still have, I'm not feeling any obligation to respond anymore.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Magnificent Max's Mom said:


> You may be the breeder and spend a lot of effort being so, but we are the ones who will love the dog for 10-13 years. We are very important.


This part just really ground my gears when I read it last night, and I'm not even a breeder (yet). This wording implies that breeders stop loving the puppies after they go to their homes...


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## MyWayGoldens (Dec 31, 2020)

And we do love them as much as any owner does as I got a call last night as one of my puppies I breed 12 years ago will be crossing the bridge in the next few days. 

The owners reached out to me. Yes I have moved my schedule around so I can be with them today as we all say good bye to Belle and until we meet again!


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## SoCalEngr (Apr 11, 2020)

ArkansasGold said:


> This part just really ground my gears when I read it last night, and I'm not even a breeder (yet). This wording implies that breeders stop loving the puppies after they go to their homes...


I tend to attribute a lot to "_the limitations of the communication channel_". In addition to the lack of audible inflection in the discussion, there is also lack of facial/body expression, and the immediate feedback (on both sides of the discussion).

I tend to think of posting on forums as "_I got an email that raised some concerns, made a phone call, and now everything's okay_", but without that phone call.

Yes, there are trolls. And, there are times when the relative anonymity of forums results in people posting things that they would never say directly to another person (leastways, they'd phrase it differently?). But, all-in-all, I attribute most of the nonsense on forums to limitations-of-the-medium, and my life is much less stressful.


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## ewokzzz (Aug 31, 2020)

During my time here I’ve come to understand the perspective of the breeders and therefore the struggles on both sides of this coin. I believe that Dana is right that there simply are not enough dogs.
I also think that some members of this community could do well to really internalize that fact, and stop telling puppy seekers that it’s always their own fault if they aren’t achieving the ultimate success, be it due to lack of patience or poorly written inquiries or something else. Some of the ageism and mischaracterization that people are simply out for immediate gratification is wrong - the truth is that even delayed gratification is hard to come by. I don't mean to overlook the good intentions of people who give suggestions on ways to increase the chances of success, though! 

With that said, I 100% agree with SoCalEngr that the subtleties and nuances of communication can be easily lost in this medium and while many of the posts in this thread might seen contentious, everybody here probably has a lot more respect for each other than it might seem, and if this conversation was happening in person I feel it would be much more apparently positive and respectful (notwithstanding the fact that the last post we saw of the OP was clearly not in good faith).

I will say again, I think that what’s happening here is that we have a situation where two perspectives are correct despite being seemingly at odds with each other:
I think the puppy seekers are right that it feels disrespectful to never get a response and that the breeder's may not know just how challenging it is to try and get through and be noticed.
I think the breeders are right that they have no obligation to try and meet demand, or to give each and every inquiry a portion of their limited time and energy. For every seeker who reads the website thoroughly, there are many who don’t. And likewise for every breeder who gives an earnest effort to respond and communicate, even just to say no, there are many who don’t. It's not fair to place people in groups when we are dealing with individuals here. 
I will admit that that for a time, I was guilty of feeling a bit of resentment towards hobbyists as a whole, because from the outside it does often feel like an exclusive club and like I was being unfairly dismissed. And it wouldn't be fair if we didn't recognize that this is a natural feeling considering how much effort I was putting into the process and how little I was getting in return, and how emotionally draining that was. It began as a fun, exciting, educational process, it morphed into feeling like I was on a hamster wheel of unanswered emails that was draining my emotional energy. 
On retrospect, it was all a part of the journey, and it was only due to all of this (and the fact that I shared openly here and didn't sugar coat how I felt, but subsequently and allowed myself to be open to being wrong and consider other viewpoints) that I was able to learn from the hobbyists and ultimately get a wider perspective on this space as a whole. 

While this thread is probably past having run it's course, I wanted to share this post to say that I have come to understand all sides here and I don't blame anybody, no matter what their position, for feeling the way that they do, and I believe that taking a deep breath and having empathy is the key. Let's not forget that we are all living through a pandemic and having our own struggles, and anything emotional is easily magnified these days. The struggles of getting though to a breeder are indeed real and justified and that can be emotionally draining. Same is true for the struggles of being overwhelmed with inquiries and having the responsibility of doing best by the puppies. I'll end this post by saying how much I appreciate every member of this forum for being a part of this process with me, even those I've disagreed with.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

SoCalEngr said:


> I tend to attribute a lot to "_the limitations of the communication channel_". In addition to the lack of audible inflection in the discussion, there is also lack of facial/body expression, and the immediate feedback (on both sides of the discussion).
> 
> I tend to think of posting on forums as "_I got an email that raised some concerns, made a phone call, and now everything's okay_", but without that phone call.
> 
> Yes, there are trolls. And, there are times when the relative anonymity of forums results in people posting things that they would never say directly to another person (leastways, they'd phrase it differently?). But, all-in-all, I attribute most of the nonsense on forums to limitations-of-the-medium, and my life is much less stressful.


The remaining content of the post was very much “this is what you breeders should do to satisfy puppy people.” Clearly, the other posts in this thread and other threads weren’t read thoroughly or were ignored. I feel as though Dana, Laura, Robin, and others have waxed eloquent about their process, methods, not being a business, making puppies for themselves, that they are doing their best, etc. and they were still told what to do by this person.

I just chose to comment on the part that was really poorly worded. I waited until today to reply because I am well aware that tone and intent cannot be conveyed very well via the internet. The intent of my reply was more to the point of “choose your words more carefully because this is how you sound.” I guess I should have chosen my own words more carefully. Lol


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