# Learning to Train the Dog You Have



## Stretchdrive (Mar 12, 2011)

This post brought tears to my eyes.

I am so sorry you are going through this. I know the fear a person carries with them after having another dog attack their dog, and I have seen the uneasyness that a dog carries with them after the horrible event. I had it happen to me years ago with one of my GSD's. It made me scared to take my dog for a walk for the longest time, and I also carried pepper spray. I hope you will be able to work through this, I can not imagine the pain you feel from this happening not once, but twice to the same dog. I hope the pro that you will be working with has lots of great ideas for you, and you will be able to move on.


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## aerolor (May 27, 2011)

Thats really sad to hear Goldensail. You have probably thought of this but is it possible for Scout to start over with regularly meeting some safe, non-threatening and friendly dogs so that she can very gradually build up her confidence again.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Ohhhh.... I'm so sorry to hear that happened. Good for you for moving forward.

What's her threshold distance around other dogs?


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

I remember the moment I had the same moment with Lexi...it helped me to think of different dogs following different paths.... 
Did I, and do I, feel sad that she doesnt get the same thrill from going to shows and other busy, active, high-stim, locations as Liberty and Tracer...sure...
Over the years I have sometimes felt sad leaving her behind...her world is physically smaller then theirs...but I do all I can to be sure she is given opportunities to continue to learn and engage the world in a way that makes her happy...

One of my favorite child rearing quotes also popped into my head: 
"Children want to be loved uniquely, not equally." 
IMHO, dogs thrive under the same....


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## OriJames (Jan 23, 2009)

This too brought tears to my eyes, GoldenSail. I can't imagine how you must be feeling, I thankfully haven't been in such a situation but I have had to watch Ori closely in more public settings as he is very spooked easily (especially by strange dogs). I can only keep hoping that Jasmine's full-of-life and "I'm invincible" outlook can rub off on him a little and give him more confidence.

I wish I had direct advice for you, but I know absolutely nothing about this type of training. Perhaps talking to your obedience instructor (or highly recommended ones at least) about what specialist trainer they would recommend, or if they could help you find one. I'm sure there must be one somewhere who works with trauma cases such as this.

Keeping you and Scout in my prayers and thoughts.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

A series of attacks caused my Casey to become reactive. He was attacked 3 times in a short period of time (twice at trials, once at a training session) and it left him reactive. He has been retired for over 6 years, I neutered him at around 7 years old, and while I still train him I don't think he will ever be comfortable in the ring again.

It hurts when a dog with tons of promise and drive is not shown, this I know. But, you do train the dog you have. If Casey never again is in a ring (he occassionally comes out in agility), I can still celebrate his successes during training.

I have also learned to be rude and at times ruthless towards other dogs - No dog, and I mean no dog is allowed close to my dogs now unless I know and trust them. If a dog does approach I step between them and am on a constant alert for dogs approaching. I will take a bite for my dog and even clueless owners seem to be concerned about that.

Now that being said, Ms Towhee is a social butterfly so I need to walk her separately when other dogs might be around 

I am sorry you too have had these experiences. It truly hurts to watch a previously friendly dog become reactive - in Casey's case it has calmed down but that may also be age/maturity.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Thankfully she's not reactive to every dog. In general she's more nervous around larger dogs. I think I've caught it early so hopefully taking measures now will prevent it from escalating. I probably could let her play with the right dog and she would be fine and happy...but she has triggers and I am not willing to risk letting her be around other dogs right now in order to learn her triggers.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Awww, that is sad to read, I didn't know you guys were going through this. 
The good news is, I have always had the feeling hunt tests/field training were you and Scout's strong suit, and frankly they don't ever have to be face-to-face with other dogs in that venue. Besides that you learn so much about dogs in general, field training. I hope you will continue with field work and pursue her HT titles.
This confirms my feelings toward a situation I'm "sort of" dealing with now. The property owner where we field train 2-3 times a week has two intact male FT goldens, and twice they have gotten loose and ran into our training setup, luckily both times my two dogs were in their crates. The landowner's two dogs come hauling ass toward us barking their heads off, absolutely do not listen to anyone, and I know have been aggressive with other people's dogs. It scares me to death, could you imagine if I was working one of my boys when they did this? My training partner (who has girls only) doesn't understand what a disaster that could be. Your post confirms I am right to be worried about it! Fisher was attacked by the pit bull several years ago while we were obedience training and while Fisher was completely unfazed by it, I am hyper about people and their loose dogs.
Sorry to yammer on; thanks for posting about this.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

While Conner wasn't attacked, when he was about two he suddenly became aggressive towards dogs getting too close to him. He would growl and lunge towards dogs getting in his space, and he seemed to have a especially high dislike of shelties. I was beside myself, how was I supposed to deal with my future obedience dog when he couldn't be around other dogs? I took him to a behaviorist and thankfully after about six months he seemed to get over it. Although he has had no issues in public in the six years since then I still to this day am super vigilant about making sure no strange dogs run up to him.

Now I am dealing with the opposite problem...Flip thinks all other dogs want to share their space with him. 

I handle both dogs the same way when needing to get by other dogs in tight quarters: hand in collar, and if really close other hand on muzzle. Just by my doing that it makes it clear to others that my dogs are not there to visit, and if another dog did still come up to my dog I would have total control over my dog's head.

I do not take my dogs on walks at all because there are too many loose dogs running around here.

Not a whole lot of point to what I posted, other than to sympathize with you and to share that I have been through my own issues with my guys. Best of luck to you and Scout.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

K9-Design said:


> The good news is, I have always had the feeling hunt tests/field training were you and Scout's strong suit, and frankly they don't ever have to be face-to-face with other dogs in that venue.


Unless the stupid Marshall doesn't think their dog has to be on leash, who confronts your dog, who is on a leash, TWICE! And ya, I tried to avoid him, but I had to go past their pickup to go to the line.:no:

However, for the most part Anney is correct. I am so sorry you have to go through this with Scout. You know your dog best, and I'm confident you will do what is right for both of you. It may take a while, but I hope you can overcome this challenge and fulfill your dreams for her.

We are here for you.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Yes, you get accumstomed to walking your dog with your palm resting against your dogs cheek for either nervous or way too friendly dogs.

Jodie - you really need to meet Towhee


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Been there too with Faelan  The pres of the club finally called his dog (and the other 2 owners got a hint) when I raised my leg to kick one of the circling dogs - plus a friend of mine jumped in. 




DNL2448 said:


> Unless the stupid Marshall doesn't think their dog has to be on leash, who confronts your dog, who is on a leash, TWICE! And ya, I tried to avoid him, but I had to go past their pickup to go to the line.:no:
> 
> However, for the most part Anney is correct. I am so sorry you have to go through this with Scout. You know your dog best, and I'm confident you will do what is right for both of you. It may take a while, but I hope you can overcome this challenge and fulfill your dreams for her.
> 
> We are here for you.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Tito's been attacked rather violently twice at shows, and recently a dog came out of the back of a car and went after him. 
It sucks big time that people can't and/or don't control their dogs. I'm sorry that you are going through this, and I hope the person you are working with is able to help you work through it.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

The pro I am working with is actually the pro field trainer as well...he started working with aggressive dogs when a dog came to him for field training that had an aggression problem that he couldn't fix. So he went out to learn more about it and started training dogs for free at first, now he is very experienced and he is a very nice, humble man. 

He says I might reach a point where I can show her. It is encouraging to hear...he told me he once ran a very aggressive chessie (aggressive to people as well) with no birds, several dogs in close proximity etc but it wasn't a problem because he had trained the dog and he was a good handler. Good handling is a large part of it.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

K9-Design said:


> This confirms my feelings toward a situation I'm "sort of" dealing with now. The property owner where we field train 2-3 times a week has two intact male FT goldens, and twice they have gotten loose and ran into our training setup, luckily both times my two dogs were in their crates. The landowner's two dogs come hauling ass toward us barking their heads off, absolutely do not listen to anyone, and I know have been aggressive with other people's dogs. It scares me to death, could you imagine if I was working one of my boys when they did this? My training partner (who has girls only) doesn't understand what a disaster that could be. Your post confirms I am right to be worried about it!


I hope people see this and think twice about where they take their dogs and what they are willing to do if something ever did happen. I never really thought taking a walk through the neighborhood could cause so much harm. It used to sound overly cautious to me, but now I totally understand why my obedience instructor will not walk her dogs in the neighborhood, or take them to the park, and will handpick which dogs she lets her boys socialize with.

I have had a few people tell me they've had similar experiences and it has completely changed their dog's personality.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

GoldenSail said:


> (.... 'Why do we learn to fall? So we can learn to pick ourselves back up again.' So that's where I am at right now. I am seeking the help of a pro who has had years and years of experience with this. I am learning to accept and love the dog I have, and how best to train her and move forward. So rather than focus on the many things I am feeling like I can't have; I am trying to focus on the things that I can. I am moving to a point where I am looking at this as an opportunity to learn something new, grow as a person, and become a better trainer and handler.
> 
> I have since armed myself with pepper spray whenever I take my dog out. Although, I am right now really sour to the idea of taking her public places to train. You just can't trust people to manage their dogs.


I just wanted you to know how much I admire your spirit and your refusal to give up without a fight. I have seen this happen to my parents with their sweet yellow lab, Kacey. It infuriates me that careless people who refuse to manage their dogs properly can ruin a great dog through these type incidents. My parents don't have the same committment to a dog sport that you do, but for them, having Kacey as a walking partner on a daily basis is a huge part of their lives. She was attacked a few times walking in their neighborhood wwithin 2 years and became extremely fearful/reactive with strange dogs. My parents' trainer had them use Kacey's extreme love of treats to focus her attention onto them and away from approaching dogs and it's been successfful to the point that Kacey now sees a dog and will actually automaticaly sit and look at my mom or dad for her treat. My parents live in a new neighborhood now, and there hasn't been an attack in a few years now, but my mom is still so afraid anytime she sees a dog with an invisible fence. My dad carries a tall walking stick and I've given them pepper spray. It has become part of their routine. 

I guess I wanted to let you know that no, I don't think Scout or you will ever havve those memories completely wiped away and I'm so, so sorry for that. It just stinks. I did want you to know that there are others who have managed to get a handle on working with the problem with extreme patience and dedication. And I have faith that you will too. Your attitude gives me total confidence in both you and Scout.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I'm really sorry you are dealing with this... especially since from what I saw of your videos she had so much brilliant possibilities for the obedience ring... 

The one thing I can think of as far as the obedience ring is that I know of quite a few dogs who are showing in obedience and are reactive to other dogs. I swear that every border collie I've met through classes is dog aggressive. It means their owners have to be on the ball at all times when they are outside the ring, and they really have to drill their dogs to obey them when in the obedience ring and stick those stays. But these people do get their obedience titles, even if they unfortunately have CDX and UD dogs who can not be off leash or un-monitored outside the ring. 

My personal experience... our collie does not like other dogs. We chose not to do any obedience with him because he will not stop challenging and refusing to turn his back on dogs and people around him. I believe he is like that because he was bullied by other collies at the rescue. 

He has no issues with Jacks... I think possibly because Jacks came as a puppy and was never any challenge to him. So it is possible that some day you can bring another puppy home... I think if you give Scout time to learn control and mellow a bit more. And keep socializing her with other dogs. 

The only other thing I can think of... some awesome female goldens that I know can be a bit witchy when it comes to dogs being pushy around them (like my dog sneaking in to check out their ears and mouths). I can't imagine them attacking other dogs, but they give a little warning when they want their space.


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

WOW that is horribly sad. 

I know fear takes time to overcome, and Oct was not that long ago. However with history of other instances it will take longer. I would stay away from venues where you would compete "with" other dogs, like obedience (sits and downs). It would be hard in the closed in areas, but if you started say doing agility, or rally or hunt tests where you are outside in a large area, and all dogs SHOULD be leashed (not saying all are) and you can control "your" area, I think that could help. Give your dog more confidence in itself. 

I had a horse who was attacked in a paddock with other horses. When I found the right barn, I had them put him in a paddock and until he was willing to visit over the fence, not to turn him out with others. They had a great set up, a small paddock inside the big one, then when he seemed ready they put one quiet one in with him, then two. When all that was good they put him out with the group and he did great. My other horse it was not so easy. He HATED for the rest of his life, horses coming up behind him. He wouldn't "kick" he would BUCK and land riders in the hospital. After my first winter with him, we turned him out from Nov - March. The less time he was ridden in the indoor arena the better. He never bucked me off. 

Give your dog time, work 'near' dogs but where they are definitely controlled. Lots and lots of treats. It may never be great, but it could get better. I hope your neighbors can control their dogs from now on.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

DNL2448 said:


> Unless the stupid Marshall doesn't think their dog has to be on leash, who confronts your dog, who is on a leash, TWICE! And ya, I tried to avoid him, but I had to go past their pickup to go to the line.:no:


Oh geez -- what a wreck -- I have seen this as well...I have found that saying something VERY LOUDLY and in a slightly demeaning manner such as "YOUR DOG IS BEING A NUISANCE, YOU NEED TO PUT HIM UP NOW" works very well! Or if you feel the loose dog is approaching yours, yell "NO NO NO NO" trust me that will get a lot of attention. I have done both of these several times at different dog events with very good results!


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## OutWest (Oct 6, 2011)

This thread is really an eye opener for me. I've heard of dogs becoming scared from an attack but didn't realize it was so common or the long lasting implications it could have. 

I've been successfully taking Tucker to the dog park since he got his last shots. I really need the dog park as a place for him to exercise. I was very careful when we started--and still am--so that he'd have only good experiences there. But lately I've noticed that he seems to have a sign on his back that says "hump me." At first it was sort of funny. When he's playing with a puppy his age, it's no big deal because they are pretty much equals. But the older male dogs seem to seek him out for that dominant treatment. As I've gotten to know Tucker over the past four months, it's become clear to me that he's very UN-domimnant. He's easy going and doesn't want a fight of any kind--he just wants to play around. 

Yesterday we had the weirdest experience. We went to a new dog park and Tucker tried to play with a male GR one month older that he. But the other dog only wanted to hump him. He was really pushy and mean. Didn't want to play at all. The owner kept pulling him off but the dog was very persistent. We finally left the park, with no complaint from T-man. The owner knew why we left, too. 

I think I'm going to have to be more assertive with the dogs and the owners, after reading all this. I don't want Tucker hurt and I don't want him scared to go to the dog park. I know many people here don't go to them at all, but I've never had problems before.

I want to give him another six months or so before I neuter him, but I suspect the humping is because he's still intact.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> I want to give him another six months or so before I neuter him, but I suspect the humping is because he's still intact.


My bet is that it is because he's allowing it. 

After we neutered our 10 year old golden, he would not even allow other dogs to check him out. Same thing with our neutered collie.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

My Sally, many years ago, was attacked in our club by a rottweiler while doing a Novice recall. Many, many weeks later, she was able to do her usual recall. She got her CD and CDX and I was the rate limiting step for going further.

Currently, I am at the point of learning to train the dogs you have.... 3 of my girls were sent out with the same conformation handler. The handler breeds and shows a Working Breed and her philosophy is not like mine. Anyway, Mantha didn't get ruined as she went out with her for the first time at almost 2. And Mantha and I had a solid relationship in obedience training with each other. However, Tiki and her daughter, Emmie both went out at 6 months(you would think I would've smartened up after Tiki). Anyway, both started out loving the show ring... and both ended up seeming to hate it. Although if I show Tiki, she is happy, but Emmie, you don't know if you are going to get Emmie the Show girl or Emmie let me drag myself around this ring to get out!! And both have carried the behavior into obedience training.. in fact, I gave up on Tiki years ago. But, I decided recently to go back to my obedience "roots". My trainer friend has been helping me with Emmie's ability to shut down and I think it could work with Tiki. And my trainer friend keeps on telling me how wonderful Mantha is (well, we have always had a solid relationship and I have decided at 9.5 years, she will get her CD). So my point, is these are the dogs I have and I have to find a way to make it work...

I personally dislike when I am at one of my son's soccer or lacrosse games..( I usually bring 2 or 3 dogs) and some idiot lets their snarling, stupid dog get in my dogs' faces(I purposefully sit away from all dogs)....I have angrily chastised those idiots. I am not a fan of letting dogs sniff each other... and I tell my clients that, too.


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## sammydog (Aug 23, 2008)

My Sammy was attacked (I don't do dog parks anymore) and was fear aggressive and also had low self confidence to start with. We did a lot of classical conditioning, LOTS of treats when he was confronted with "scary" dogs/people/things. That is also the reason we wanted to do agility. I will tell you agility helped A LOT!!! It gave him confidence, I just needed to always keep an eye on our surroundings. He got to a point though where he was very comfortable in crowds and long as people/dogs were not trying to interact with him too much.

I am very very sorry you are going through this. I hope you are able to get her to a point where you can show her. I have a feeling you will. I know you said at some point you had wanted to do agility, I think it is a HUGE confidence builder, maybe that is something to try...


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

It also might be worth it to get her thyroid tested just in case. So many goldens have thyroid problems, and if hers is just a little low it could be making problems worse than they normally would be.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

I'm so sorry Scout has had to go through this. I know you will do whatever it takes to help her recover. Field should be a good outlet for you both since it is usually one dog at a time.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

I've thought about thyroid but since she was recently spayed I am worried that could mess with it.

I really don't know about being able to do the regular obedience classes...the thing is she has been in two fights where she has drawn blood. The most recent was Christmas morning, of all days. My sister's border collie x aussie was there and they were fine together...until that dog nipped at my dad's heels. That caused Scout to react and she jumped the other dog. I was stupid and I tried to break up the fight and Scout redirected and bit me. I am in shock. I can't trust her around other dogs period. I couldn't anticipate that something like that could be a problem. 

It is unfair to put her in a ring off-leash with other dogs at this point.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Rally and tracking are other dog sports sports that she might be fine with - and with time she might be able to do obedience with other dogs.


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## Jige (Mar 17, 2011)

There are plenty of other areas that you can show her and she doesnt have to be incontact with other dogs. 


I have been on the other side of this. I have a American Pit Bull Terrier. I use to take her to classes. It was so hard as other people would let their dogs just run up to my girl. I never knew which dog my dog wold hate and it was very stressful for me. I would constantly tell people to please keep their dogs away from Vendetta but they would be "oh I thought all dogs were nice or I shold be able to let my foo foo run and play" You should have your dog under control not all dogs are nice and accepting of other dogs and I paid for the class too. 

Goldensail I would still work with your dog in public places but maybe just go at quiter times. Remeber too what ever you are feeling goes down that leash and right into Scout. If you are fearfull she will be also.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Lisa don't give up on the obedience, keep training her through utility and you can show her in graduate open and versatility without having to worry about the stays. And hopefully with time you will get past this. Whether it is right or not, there are a lot of dogs in obedience that have a tendency to be dog aggreessive but have been taught to completely ignore other dogs.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

My obedience trainer said we could shoot for Beginner Novice and the non-regular classes. Pete (pro retriever trainer and aggression trainer) felt like if I learned to train and manage her well a stay shouldn't be a problem...we'll see as we go. Of course in Open you actually do out of sight stays and I didn't tell him that. One step at a time.

My biggest fear is not being able to get another dog in a few years. I can accept that we might not be able to do certain things and try and find the things we can do...but it is hard knowing that it might not be safe to get a puppy to start training with  

It is all up in the air though. At least I am doing something about it. I can't stand idly by and watch it escalate.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I'm so sorry you're facing this disappointment. We have a similar result with Chloe but for different reasons. Her hip prelims came back bad on her right hip (and before anyone asks, yes they were sent to the OFA and yes they were done by the local go-to radiologist so I know positioning was not the issue), so all my goals of field and agility with her are out, let alone conformation.... So for different reasons I can identify with what you're going through.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> I'm so sorry you're facing this disappointment. We have a similar result with Chloe but for different reasons. Her hip prelims came back bad on her right hip (and before anyone asks, yes they were sent to the OFA and yes they were done by the local go-to radiologist so I know positioning was not the issue), so all my goals of field and agility with her are out, let alone conformation.... So for different reasons I can identify with what you're going through.


Wait... how bad are her hips? 

I can imagine dropping conformation because what's the point in campaigning a dog who can't be bred... but you can still train her for field. Even agility depends on how comfortable she is.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Megora said:


> Wait... how bad are her hips?
> 
> I can imagine dropping conformation because what's the point in campaigning a dog who can't be bred... but you can still train her for field. Even agility depends on how comfortable she is.


I don't want to de-rail this thread, but they came back moderate on her right hip - already arthritic changes in the joint. She is not symptomatic that we know of, but the ortho vet said he was very surprised she wasn't (as did the radiologist). I would just never forgive myself if pushing her to do field or agility ended up requiring surgery or causing her pain... I'm looking into tracking though. And she swims, does limited retrieving in our back yard and walks. And of course plays with Jack and Kira. She's also on a regimen of supplements to prevent inflammation, etc. She's not even 18 months with arthritic changes in her hip....if it were me on the outside I would probably also say to let her do field and agility and manage the symptoms as they arise, but it's just different when it's your own dog for some reason.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> I'm so sorry you're facing this disappointment. We have a similar result with Chloe but for different reasons. Her hip prelims came back bad on her right hip (and before anyone asks, yes they were sent to the OFA and yes they were done by the local go-to radiologist so I know positioning was not the issue), so all my goals of field and agility with her are out, let alone conformation.... So for different reasons I can identify with what you're going through.


I know someone who is on her second bitch with the dreams of wanting to show and breed and that bitch did not pass clearances after being sent in twice. It's hard.

I know it is different when it is your own dog...but at the same time I wouldn't rule out agility or field. Jump her at lower heights, keep her on supplements, etc. It will be important to keep her in shape...so let her be a little active.


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## boomers_dawn (Sep 20, 2009)

Hee hee I learned from Sunrise (that's a compliment). She saw me hollering at the top of my lungs "GET YOUR DOG AWAY FROM MY DOG!!!" out in public when a pack of off-leash nuisances rushed poor innocent leashed Gladys.
The response? "It's ok, they're all friendly". 

However the topic of this thread is really sad. I hope with time and doing fun activities that don't involve other dogs in her face, she can overcome with tiime.
It's probably similar to when people are victims of crime or violence, to be afraid and need some time and recovery.

I also wanted to point out, Boomer won't start a fight, but he will finish one if a dog (esp male) barges up to him on leash. Someone, I forget who, pointed out to me that I contribute to the problem, by tensing up and pulling back on the leash when other dogs approach. So I give him the message "watch out, here comes a dog!".

I just wanted to suggest when you work with the trainer also explore if you as a handler do anything to pepetuate the reactivity.

I was a little confused because I know I'm vigilant and react when other dogs barge up to us, and I feel my vigilance and telling people don't let your dog get in my dog's face has prevented some skirmishes. I guess it might be a matter of balance and learning to read dog language, like not pull away from all dogs, especially if they're at an ok distance, but decide which ones might be a threat and how close/far is ok.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

I hate it when people say their dog is friendly...well I can guess I can tell them now mine isn't.  It makes me sad to see her ears pinned back in fear when in her crate and other dogs get too close. To watch other dogs run around and play with each other knowing that she can't have that anymore.

I really think our obedience career is over. I mean, we can do BN and some of the non-regular classes and maybe, just maybe Novice. I don't think it is fair to entertain the idea of Open particularly after I talk to more people. At a recent trial during the stays a pigeon landed in the ring and just about every dog broke to go chase it. Then if there is the chance that you might have wandering dogs or a large dog next to yours...if you could count on zero problems than I think it might be fine. Problem is you can't...and it is my responsibility to protect my dog.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Grins - yep!! 

You go after my dog, or your dog goes after my dog and you get to learn what 'Fighting Irish' means  



boomers_dawn said:


> Hee hee I learned from Sunrise (that's a compliment). She saw me hollering at the top of my lungs "GET YOUR DOG AWAY FROM MY DOG!!!" out in public when a pack of off-leash nuisances rushed poor innocent leashed Gladys.
> The response? "It's ok, they're all friendly".
> 
> .


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> It makes me sad to see her ears pinned back in fear when in her crate and other dogs get too close.


Is she any better when you have her out of her crate and just hanging out with you? Maybe in a quiet spot? I only ask because from what I've seen of some dogs, the crate exasperates any issues that some dogs might have. It can make them feel cornered. 

The stays - it can be thoroughly trained. There are aggressive dogs out there all the time who can't sit next to a dog outside the ring but learn to ignore the other dogs in the ring. It just takes more time. It's a training challenge.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Megora said:


> The stays - it can be thoroughly trained. There are aggressive dogs out there all the time who can't sit next to a dog outside the ring but learn to ignore the other dogs in the ring. It just takes more time. It's a training challenge.


I am sure it can be trained...but for the same reason I am having this problem I can't control other people's dogs. If one were to get up and wander near her that could be a very bad thing. If something really exciting (like a pigeon) caused multiple dogs to break it could be a bad thing. It is the unknown that frightens me. Like I said earlier I don't know what her triggers are...I thought I did. 

My opinion is it that it is unfair to the other exhibitors who have worked hard training their dogs. Wouldn't you be pissed if your dog got into a fight at a show during a stay? Particularly after having a hard time working on stays? Particularly if it was known that this dog had some fear-reactivity issues? I am still going to take things day by day, but right now I just don't think it is fair. It sounds a little selfish.


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## boomers_dawn (Sep 20, 2009)

WOW! A pigeon! That is the ultimate distraction. I wonder what Gladys would do??

I know how you feel. You're the one suffering and missing out, doing the right thing to protect your dog while the others go in the ring with their little breakers.

Last week at drop in we had a dog who the owner said chronically breaks to go "visit" others, take the opportunity of being off leash for recalls to run up to Boomer. I'm sorry, but your mature intact male does not barge up in my senior male dog's face to "visit" or to play. So Boomer missed out on long sits and downs for the same reason.

I just think it's part of life sometimes we take the high road and it's not fair. But in a way, if we did the right thing, we win.

As for controlling the unknown, I'm not sure we can always control every single thing. They are dogs and sometimes they just ... act like dogs.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

GoldenSail said:


> My opinion is it that it is unfair to the other exhibitors who have worked hard training their dogs. Wouldn't you be pissed if your dog got into a fight at a show during a stay? Particularly after having a hard time working on stays? Particularly if it was known that this dog had some fear-reactivity issues? I am still going to take things day by day, but right now I just don't think it is fair. It sounds a little selfish.


No... I agree. Which is why I think it is a good idea you are not doing obedience right now. Even Novice has a certain danger because when you are walking in for the stays you will have a dog in front of you and a dog behind you. 

I simply didn't want you to lose hope of getting into obedience down the road - especially after all the work you've done with her. 

It's obviously not the same thing, but Danny was the same age when I was dealing with his anxiety and fear issues about people approaching him. Guys especially. That behavioral issue never completely went away and he needed special handling the rest of his life. But 4 years of group dog classes helped get him through well enough that he had rock solid stands. He would close his eyes and hold his breath while the judges touched him, but he got through it. 

Compare that to when he was 2 years old and taking off and running and/or exhibiting clear signs of fear and panic (shuddering and shaking) when our instructor (who'd been in his life since he was 8 weeks old) would come to pat him down.

I'm saying that it's great that you are working with a behavioralist, and I'm sure they are telling you that Scout is always going to have issues. But it's not always the end of the world.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

I usually don't pay much attention to this section, but your post caught my eye.

I'm sorry you're going through this. I know that even a nice, relaxing walk through the neighborhood can be anything _but_ when you have a fear reactive/aggressive dog. You can't count on other people to contain or control their dogs, so you have to be on your toes all the time. I have to tell you, though - DON'T GIVE UP! I know that every dog is different, but I believe that it CAN get better. You can work her through this.

A year ago, I wouldn't have believed that Riley could be within a few feet of another dog without wanting to attack, but that's where we are now. 

At his worst, he would lunge at other dogs 20-30 feet away, just for making brief eye contact with him. I was determined (mainly because we had no other choice.) No matter when I take him for a walk, there are always other people out walking their dogs in the neighborhood and I had to get him to a point where we could pass without him going ballistic. After working on it every single day for nearly a year, he now walks by the vast majority of other dogs, on a loose leash and barely glances at them. I've taught him to keep his attention on me, instead. I haven't moved much past that point, yet. I'm still a little too afraid to take it to the next level and really let him interact, but we'll get there.

I know it's a whole different ballgame when you're talking about competing, but if Riley can make so much progress (with an owner/trainer who really has no idea what the heck she's doing!) I have to believe that you can help your girl through this.


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## softballmom (Sep 6, 2011)

I am really glad I happened on this thread and that you shared your experience. While Watney is only 4 months, I have learned she is pretty good one-on-one with other dogs but larger groups can overwhelm her and her tolerance turns to reactive. Nothing has really happened per se, but enough to make me uncomfortable at times especially when I feel I have lost control of the situation. At the end of her puppy training classes they allow the pups to "socialize". Last time they had a new pup, a Newfie who is Watney's size but a month younger. Watney was playing nicely then the Newfie escalated it and I didn't like what he was doing, thought it was a tad too aggressive from all the behavior I had seen previously during the socializing. To my horror, my foot instinctively came out to block or kick that dog away, I didn't care. I was afraid things might escalate. I have shared my concerns in the past with the trainer and she has always maintained if my comfort level is jeopardized, feel free to call and restrain my dog which I did. The owners of the Newfie said they have an older one at home who is 2 years old and that is how they play. I'm grateful this is the last class coming up that I have to see this dog. I am moving on to the next level of training because Watney loves it, and this thread further confirmed some of what I have been feeling. My husband and I have been talking about walking with pepper spray, especially when I am at the park and other people drive in and let their dogs go right out of the car, off-lead, and they clearly have no voice control over their dog. 

I am sorry for what you are going through as it seems to be a passion for you and Scout. I have missed the videos that others mentioned and am anxious to see them. Good luck with the trainer you have found and with Scout.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

What a rotten thing to be going through. Butch was bitten in the face by another dog we used to train with when he was a puppy, and then that dog's son went after him a week later (another puppy thank goodness so not able to do any real damage.) There have also been several incidents over the years where diffferent dogs have gone after Winter. I interevened in all of those situations to keep things from escalating. Once, when one of Breeze's sons came back for a visit Winter tried to assert himself--and because I did not want the management situations I have seen others have, I nipped that in the bud and gave him what-for.

I am sure you can find some events where Scout will still be able to play--field certainly. There they are to be so focused on that bird, that even REALLY aggressive dogs don't seem to have an issue. You just have to be vigilant about airing, and what other people are doing with their dogs. Work the program that your pro sets up to start the desensitization process.

That said, I also think you need to consider the "travelling down the lead" aspect. You are going to be an important part of the puzzle in getting her to relax and not be reactive. The incident with your sister's dog gives an indication that one of the things she has taken from her experiences is that SHE needs to do the protecting--of herself, of her people. So now she needs to know that YOU have it under control.

I keep a riding crop tucked in my pocket when I am airing my dogs at a test, or even taking them for a walk or training at the conservation area--it is not for MY dogs! I will, and have used it, and my foot if need be, on dogs that have come at my dogs with intent, usually with no owner in sight or after I have told the owner to call their dog off. I add "I will protect my dog!" to the end of that holler for them to call their dog! The loose dog can generally read that I mean business as well, and it is only on rare occasions that I have had to use that force. So my dogs know that I am the "big dog", and I will protect them--and that goes a long way to forestalling a fight. Butch is such a weenie that he would just hit the ground, but I believe Winter would stand up for himself if I was not there. I just make sure he doesn't have to to the best of my ability. You cannot control every circumstance, but your dog has to feel that confidence in you.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

In order to keep this thread going as it has obviously been a learning tool for some, I have two questions..

First: How much is too much? I have two boys and a girl. Now, of course, when Breeze comes into heat, she is out of the scene completely and my radar is up accordingly. In the meantime, the boys will play wrestle and it gets pretty rambunctious at times. I stop it immediately if I thing it is going too far, but I have heard of those that don't even let them vocalize or play bite.

Second: How much is too much in regards to protecting your dog? With the world in a sue crazy mode, at what point do you draw the line? Me? I will defend my dogs to the death, but what is the cost from the other side of the fence? (Are you getting what I am trying to say?)


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

DNL2448 said:


> In order to keep this thread going as it has obviously been a learning tool for some, I have two questions..
> 
> First: How much is too much? I have two boys and a girl. Now, of course, when Breeze comes into heat, she is out of the scene completely and my radar is up accordingly. In the meantime, the boys will play wrestle and it gets pretty rambunctious at times. I stop it immediately if I thing it is going too far, but I have heard of those that don't even let them vocalize or play bite.
> 
> Second: How much is too much in regards to protecting your dog? With the world in a sue crazy mode, at what point do you draw the line? Me? I will defend my dogs to the death, but what is the cost from the other side of the fence? (Are you getting what I am trying to say?)


1. My guys ae allowed to wrestle and play bitey-face. Breeze has done that with her kids since they were in the whelping box, so it would be hard to stop it now! I however do not tolerate dominace posturing or resource guarding--if a toy elicits grumbles, it goes away and no one gets it...

2. I guess I would employ the same standard that applies to defense of one's self--use as much force as is necessary to stop the attack, and do not engage further.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Thanks Shelly,

The pro did say that at this point a lot of it falls on me...learning to be a good dog handler and how to manage and read my dog as well as protect her. Of course there will be training involved, but the major work is going to be with me and not her. Well, I am committed and will take an opportunity to learn something else and become a better handler and trainer...sucks I have to learn it the hard way.

She is worse in her crate of course because she there is no escape. A year ago she used to be fine. Now if I take her training and someone else is airing their dog near my car her ears are back and if they get too close she'll snap at the dog. It makes me sad...everyone I train with has been made aware so that they can also be mindful of her.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

See that's the thing, we are RESPONSIBLE dog owners. In my second question, I was picturing a Something Doodle running at our dogs. Joe Q Public yells out, oh their friendly, but you can tell, they do not have friendship on their minds. You kick or strike their dog to protect yours, you end up in court. Lord knows how much emotional trauma you caused to their charging "baby". 

Shelly, I like you, allow bitey face and vocal wrestling, but take away any toy that causes gerriness. Tag is still young enough that he shows deference to Doo, he knows about the birds, still doesn't have a clue about the bees...Soon, though.

It breaks my heart you are faced with this situation with Scout. I know you will do the right thing.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

My understanding is that if your dog is under control (i.e. leash) and another dog attacks the dog, or even if your dog attacked the off-leash uncontrolled dog the bad dog owner is responsible in both cases. Their dog was not under control but your dog was. 

I hate it when I hear someone say they had their dog off-leash and they let it run up to a leashed dog and the leashed dog snapped at their dog. They are offended by the leashed dog's behavior but fail to see that it was their fault for not managing their dog.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Interesting enough, I just came back from class and there was a beautiful Belgian Malinois there. Beautiful young dog, but she either has ramped up guard instincts or she is slightly dog aggressive. 

Her owner told everyone as she came in that her dog had issues. And that was about all that was necessary. That and her dog growling at my "welcome committee" dog who was excited about a new dog coming in and was gawking at her.

There were around 8 people in our class and a lot of us were heeling, some off leash, and moving across the floor together. Nobody heeled up to her dog's butt and she took care on her end to keep space around her dog. She put her dog in the stay lineup with the other dogs. 

^^^ Just trying to show that there are people dealing with this all the time.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

DNL2448 said:


> In order to keep this thread going as it has obviously been a learning tool for some, I have two questions..
> 
> First: How much is too much? I have two boys and a girl. Now, of course, when Breeze comes into heat, she is out of the scene completely and my radar is up accordingly. In the meantime, the boys will play wrestle and it gets pretty rambunctious at times. I stop it immediately if I thing it is going too far, but I have heard of those that don't even let them vocalize or play


I let my guys play together until it looks like an injury might occur. Once the boys end up on back legs in a bear hug, I break it up because I don't want to deal with any breaks, rips, tears, etc. 

If one keeps messing with the other and being a general pest, and it is clear the other dog isn't wanting to play in return and is attempting to avoid the interaction, I will step in and remove the pest so the other dog doesn't feel like he needs to "fix" the situation himself.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

GoldenSail said:


> Thanks Shelly,
> 
> She is worse in her crate of course because she there is no escape. A year ago she used to be fine. Now if I take her training and someone else is airing their dog near my car her ears are back and if they get too close she'll snap at the dog. It makes me sad...everyone I train with has been made aware so that they can also be mindful of her.


Are you able to use it as an opportunity to counter-condition? Have great treats and feed as other dogs loiter outside her crate, keeping them far enough away so that she's aware and concerned by their proximity, but not over-threshold to the point of snapping?


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

DNL2448 said:


> See that's the thing, we are RESPONSIBLE dog owners. In my second question, I was picturing a Something Doodle running at our dogs. Joe Q Public yells out, oh their friendly, but you can tell, they do not have friendship on their minds. You kick or strike their dog to protect yours, you end up in court. Lord knows how much emotional trauma you caused to their charging "baby".


That's a big part of why I carry Direct Stop. I'd rather spray a dog to back it off than do something to make physical contact ... not that I wouldn't if I had to, but ...


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

I, too, carry Direct Stop. 

I always keep in mind that even if the other dog truly IS friendly and isn't looking for a fight, Riley's reaction to it could spark one. I figure the Direct Stop should, in most cases, give me the chance to stop a situation before it starts. 

It's annoying as hell that other people let their 'friendly' dogs run amok, but I sort of figure that the bottom line is, MY dog is the one who would cause harm so I have to own it and take every precaution I can to prevent it.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

My boys have ended up at the vets when play turned to fighting. Twice. In the blink of an eye. So they are not allowed to play together and are not unattended when together. Don't get me wrong, they are together when just hanging and when one is playing with Towhee, I'll be paying attention to the other one and then they switch. 

I luckily live in a state where dogs are legally considered property - this allows us to protect our dogs. And I don't know if it is tradition or law, but if one of my dogs were to hurt another dog on my property, the other dogs owner pays while if my dog were to hurt another dog off my property, and my dog was at fault, I would pay. But mostly, everyone I know realizes that dog stuff happens and it is largely on the honor system. 

Dog Parks might be totally different, but then they are disasters waiting to happen as far as I am concerned. Socialization or pack-mentality? Grins - I just don't do dog parks. 



DNL2448 said:


> In order to keep this thread going as it has obviously been a learning tool for some, I have two questions..
> 
> First: How much is too much? I have two boys and a girl. Now, of course, when Breeze comes into heat, she is out of the scene completely and my radar is up accordingly. In the meantime, the boys will play wrestle and it gets pretty rambunctious at times. I stop it immediately if I thing it is going too far, but I have heard of those that don't even let them vocalize or play bite.
> 
> Second: How much is too much in regards to protecting your dog? With the world in a sue crazy mode, at what point do you draw the line? Me? I will defend my dogs to the death, but what is the cost from the other side of the fence? (Are you getting what I am trying to say?)


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

FlyingQuizini said:


> Are you able to use it as an opportunity to counter-condition? Have great treats and feed as other dogs loiter outside her crate, keeping them far enough away so that she's aware and concerned by their proximity, but not over-threshold to the point of snapping?


I thought about it...I will talk to Pete about it. The thing is she does not feel safe and I don't think cookies will make her feel safe and I am worried that it could be rewarding her for the wrong behavior (fear). Also, there is a high probability she won't take them.

My sister's dog is fear-aggressive toward people (but with really good bite inhibition). She has worked with a behaviorist in the past and one thing they tried to do was condition 'Say hello' with treats to introduce the dog positively toward people. It backfired. Instead of garnering a positive association of food with people the dog learned to growl on command...


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## FeatherRiverSam (Aug 7, 2009)

GoldenSail I'm so impressed with your attitude and approach to this tough sistuation. I can identify with just about everything you've said...if anyone can pull this off it's you. Reading through this thread I keep thinking to myself your dog is so lucky to have you in its life and the dog public, as so many don't deserve it, are lucky as well.

Off leash "friendly" out of control dogs are a real pet peeve of mine. What a difference our world would be if more dog owners were as responsible as you!

I hope things work out for you and you're able to get that second dog / pup some time soon down the line - you certainly deserve it!

Pete


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Had her blood drawn today for a thyroid panel and sent it in to Dr. Jean Dodds. I felt kind of silly bringing in a young, healthy, fit dog and when asked her family history had to say that her dad was OFA tested normal thyroid. I really appreciate that the vet was willing to humor me and was supportive and let me send it into the lab I wanted. I also really appreciate a vet that is willing to recommend a trainer.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

A little baffled here...results show decreased T4 and T3 and TGAA negative. Interpretation is that low levels are most likely non-thyroidal illness?


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

Maybe you were right before in thinking that her recent spay could skew the results...?? 

I would email Dr. Dodds and ask her. She's great about answering any questions you have. I contacted her after we got Riley's results back and she answered right away.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Maybe...I tried calling but I don't think they are open yet. I asked a few vets if the spay would affect the results and I was told no.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Have nothing to add here but wanted to send a good thought your way.


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## LifeOfRiley (Nov 2, 2007)

GoldenSail said:


> Maybe...I tried calling but I don't think they are open yet. I asked a few vets if the spay would affect the results and I was told no.


I have no idea what else could cause low thyroid levels, but I hope someone can give you some answers, quickly.


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

GoldenSail said:


> I thought about it...I will talk to Pete about it. The thing is she does not feel safe and I don't think cookies will make her feel safe and I am worried that it could be rewarding her for the wrong behavior (fear). Also, there is a high probability she won't take them.
> Counter conditioning works to change how the dog feels about what she finds fearful- feeding her treats, even though she is reacting is not 'rewarding' her behavior, but opening the door to a new perspective for her - creating the association: scarey dog = good things happen. If she is not taking treats she is too stressed and needs more distance between her and 'it'.
> 
> I am in this as well, I have a people and dog fear reactive foster dog. It is heartbreaking, and emotionally exhausting, however I do believe he can get better, I have to believe to keep on trying. He is a beautifully (behaved for a 1 1/2 year old lab) well mannered dog in my home, but take him outside the gate and he starts to stress immediately, see another dog he 'loses it' completely, and humans are terrifying. I am working with a certified behaviorist, using positive reinforcement to change his view of the world, it is a process, long one, but he is improving.
> ...


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