# I hit/smacked my puppy very hard, what should I do?



## leximoo (Aug 12, 2014)

Ok, before you reply telling me I should not own a dog at all, please read what I have to say.


Me and my puppy (who is about 4.5 months) were both up on my bed about to go to sleep. I was lying underneath the covers, and he was lying on top. He was lying on top of my leg, so I decided to move it from underneath him. I pulled it away, and he looked at my leg moving from under the covers. He quickly took an interest in it and before I knew it he was standing up on the bed holding my leg and humping it. It happened so fast it took me a moment to realise what he was actually doing.

*Before I continue*... note that I am a VERY, VERY strict trainer when it comes to my own dogs. I would rather not own the dog than have it badly trained. I love the dog to have the most free will possible, but when I ask him to do something I expect it done immediately. For example, I allow him to walk entirely off the lead on road sides and in the woods, providing that he listens to recall and commands first time. He is now in the habit of doing this every time. I like it and he likes it. 

*Back to the point*... So as soon as I realised he was humping me I sat up and shouted 'NO' to him. I was quite upset that he was humping my leg and in my eyes, this is a COMPLETELY unacceptable behaviour, as I've said I'm very strict. As soon as I said 'NO' I *immediately* hit him, very hard, on his thigh. Honestly, it was very much a reflex action. As soon as I hit him I was very remorseful and actually very shocked at what I had done. I didn't plan it, I didn't even think about it. I was just very shocked and let it out. After hitting him, he immediately stopped and looked at me, stunned. I continued to say no, about 5 more times. His gaze drifted from my eyes, from side to side, and after the last 'no' he got off the bed and sat on the floor on the other side of the room looking at me. 

Of course I felt disgusted at what I had done, and still recognise that it was the wrong thing to do.

After a minute I invited him back onto the bed with a happy voice, and gave him a treat. I asked him to give me a high-five, and he did so, so I gave him another treat. Then he looked at me for a few seconds watching me from the corner of his eye and quickly fell asleep.

Basically.... WHAT DO I DO NOW????:yuck::yuck::uhoh:

How do I deal with the trust and respect? He obviously isn't that fearful as he did not pee, and he came back on the bed. I know that the smack was the wrong way to deal with it, but I honestly admit that it was a very reflex-type action, no thought given to it at all.

*Do you think he knew it was my leg?*


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

"Well what do I do now?"

Don't hit your dog. What happens is exactly what occurred. You expect a 4.5 month old to know NO already or what you mean by get off? 

Dogs will hump.... If he was not physically hurting you, you shouldn't have hit him.

You need to earn trust back with love and training. Use treats to get a good behavior and then praise.


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## Dancer (Apr 5, 2010)

He humped your leg. You hit him and yelled 'no'. Now you get on with life. It was just a single moment in time, you don't need to dwell on it forever and you can bet your dog isn't. If this was all it took to break his trust, then I don't think it was very strong to begin with. I think this is more 'mole-hill ' than 'mountain' in the grand scheme of things . 


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## Allan's Girl (Apr 16, 2009)

Ok I haven't slept in 30 hours, so I'm going to try to be delicate

Here is my suggestion and I think it's a very good one. Get yourself and your puppy in with a good trainer. That way you will BOTH learn what is appropriate behavior! Many trainers offer group classes. They are not that expensive especially when you consider what you get out of it and that is a good working relationship between you and your dog BASED ON LOVE AND MUTUAL RESPECT.

I'm sorry if this offends you. I am trying to be constructive here


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## Doug (Jul 17, 2010)

Well done for recognising that you could have handled the situation better. 

Take a moment to put yourself in your pups position. Pups deal with an extraordinary amount of wild energy. They release this energy by exploring the world and do what appears to us as crazy things. 

It is like us trying to learn Japanese. If we make a mistake, we need empathy, guidance and compassion so that we can learn positive options rather than focussing on our mistakes. In the same way (despite how frustrating it is) we need to show great patience and redirect the pup towards a better way to behave. The key is knowing how to redirect them within that split second of that moment. This comes with practice.

We along with our pups are all learning along the way.
Now that you know better you will do better.


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## Rkaymay (May 12, 2014)

I'm confused as to why the humping bothered you so much. Obviously he didn't think it was a dog! You make it sound like he's never humped you before. So how would he know this is unacceptable behavior? It's completely normal in his world! He most likely became overexcited by the movement of SOMETHING under the blanket, and in his excitement reacted by humping.

Besides gaining his trust back, you're going to have recreate the situation so that you can teach him, gently, that you find this behavior unacceptable.


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## wjane (Oct 12, 2013)

What difference does it make whether he thought it was your leg?! He was doing what comes natural to many dogs. You shouldn't have hit him. period.


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## leximoo (Aug 12, 2014)

Ok ok.

Thanks to those of you who have given me some constructive advice.

YES, hitting the puppy was the wrong way to deal with it, I'm not evil, I know that. When I say it was a reflex action, I mean it, literally. I didn't even think about it, I just hit him hard because I was so, so shocked that he was humping me. It was the first time he ever had.

Thank you for the advice peeps, we have been to group training, but I will get us in with another trainer in the next month to help build on our relationship positively. 

I guess I really want to know whether he would have understood why I was reprimanding him. Even though I didn't even intend to hit him in the first place. It was a slip up, and I need to learn to control it more, I know that.


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## Doug (Jul 17, 2010)

No, he wouldn't have understood. It would have come out of the blue to him. That is why punishment does not work and positive methods of redirection and praise are the way to go.


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## Anon-2130948gsoni (Apr 12, 2014)

I think it might be really important to understand that his behavior isn't sexual? Some of us carry some human baggage in that area, so if our beloved pup suddenly seems like a pervert, it can freak us out? I'm only speaking from my own experience, but just in case it applies here...

We all make mistakes. The one thing I would suggest is that asking for instant obedience in a very young dog is setting him and you up for failure, so maybe give both of you a bit of a break here, yes?


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## leximoo (Aug 12, 2014)

Noreaster said:


> I think it might be really important to understand that his behavior isn't sexual? Some of us carry some human baggage in that area, so if our beloved pup suddenly seems like a pervert, it can freak us out? I'm only speaking from my own experience, but just in case it applies here...
> 
> We all make mistakes. The one thing I would suggest is that asking for instant obedience in a very young dog is setting him and you up for failure, so maybe give both of you a bit of a break here, yes?


Thank you so much for the kind words and suggestions. A huge relief. It sounds like it makes sense.


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## Melfice (Aug 4, 2012)

Doug said:


> No, he wouldn't have understood. It would have come out of the blue to him. That is why punishment does not work and positive methods of redirection and praise are the way to go.


 Very true, and punishment by hitting and hurting only leads the dog (animal) to fear you. Which is not a good thing at all.

I'm glad the OP is concerned about their pup, and taking the steps so this won't happen again


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## Bentleysmom (Aug 11, 2012)

I do not believe in hitting a dog for any reason whatsoever. Period! That being said, I did hit Bentley when he was about 4 months old. I don't even remember why it happened now but I know I felt so bad and that feeling has never, ever left me or even lightened up. It didn't hurt him but it sure hurt me in ways I can't even put into words. 

Some day at the pearly gates I will be asked "what's the worst thing you ever did?" My answer will be hands down, "Once I hit my dog".

I don't think Bentley even remembers it but I sure do. My suggestion is to recognize how very wrong is was to do and make a solemn promise that it will never happen again. 

One thing I know for sure is, we are all humans and we all make mistakes. We learn from them and our wonderful, faithful dogs go right on loving us. ♥


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## Aleksandrina (May 27, 2014)

First of all, a 4 and a half month old puppy should not be sleeping in your bed. That’s what crates and dog beds are for. 

Puppies hump for a variety of reasons, including excitement and playfulness. So humping your leg wasn’t necessarily a sexual thing. 

Imagine this scenario: I'll give you $100 if you do a "bodongakhork." Come on, do it. Come on. No? You don't want $100? Okay, then. Why didn't you do it? Oh, because you didn't know what "bodongakhork" means. I see. That's exactly how your dog feels when you yell "no." Puppies don’t know what “no” means… unless you teach them and show them repeatedly. It's like you're chattering in a foreign language to them. Now onto hitting your puppy... Do you want him to obey your orders because he fears you? Or would you rather have a loyal dog who respects you and follows commands to please you? 

There’s a difference between being a strict trainer and being abusive towards an innocent animal. If I were you, I'd never let it happen again. You need to possess patience to properly train any animal. I recommend using positive reinforcement (food, treats, toys, play time, belly rubs) and never physical abuse.


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## Bentleysmom (Aug 11, 2012)

In her defense, she does recognize how wrong it was. It sounds like she puts a lot of time into training her dogs. I think belittling her at this point is pointless & cruel and one of the reasons people hesitate to bring up any serious topic on here anymore.


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## Tennyson (Mar 26, 2011)

Aleksandrina said:


> First of all, a 4 and a half month old puppy should not be sleeping in your bed. That’s what crates and dog beds are for.


 Wait............where did this come from? Who said a puppy can't sleep in their owners bed?


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## Aleksandrina (May 27, 2014)

Tennyson said:


> Wait............where did this come from? Who said a puppy can't sleep in their owners bed?


As far as I'm concerned, a puppy shouldn't be allowed to sleep in your bed until he is fully trained, including potty training and the ability to always recognize and follow basic commands ("no" and "off" being 2 of them.) 4.5 months is too young for both in my opinion.


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## leximoo (Aug 12, 2014)

Bentleysmom said:


> In her defense, she does recognize how wrong it was. It sounds like she puts a lot of time into training her dogs. I think belittling her at this point is pointless & cruel and one of the reasons people hesitate to bring up any serious topic on here anymore.


Thank you for the support.

Aleksandrina - I know it was wrong. It has been two or three hours and he is fast asleep beside me on the bed and I am on my laptop crying about it because I really do feel very, very bad about it. I use positive reinforcement to train my dogs and this puppy to do everything. Everything the pup knows I did with positive reinforcement.

It's hard to be honest online, but I was abused with punishment as a child, and subsequently developed lots of mental health problems because of it. eventually, I ended up beating my parents once I became an adult. I would strangle them and try to kill them and my life was a mess.

Now I don't work, or have children or a partner, nor can I ever, because I know how badly I will treat them, without even meaning to, because of my past.

I thought that this beautiful puppy would be a turning point for me in life, and he truly has. I have never felt so happy and I thank God every day that I have been blessed with this beautiful boy in my life. Sadly, I am a vulnerable person, but I think I did alright to admit to my wrongdoings here. All I ask for is some constructive advice on how I can rectify our trust and bond, and show him that I do love him and that I am sorry. If anyone has any ways that I can cope with the frustration when he is not listening that would be helpful too.

It does sadden me to think of myself as an abuser, I've been called that by almost everyone who knows anything about me, but I promise to my puppy that I made a regrettable mistake that I didnt even think about beforehand.


By the way, he knew 'off' since 3.5 months, and 'no' solidly since about 3 weeks ago. He is very smart and I spend at least 5-6 hours a day training him, and the rest of the day with him doing other things. It wasn't the fact that he didn't respond to the 'NO' that I hit him, it was just the sight of it that made me so upset that I barely even got the chance to think about how to deal with it, I felt that I had to control the situation and in a cloudy response just hit him hard on his thigh. It was all in the moment and was not intended. I dont need a scolding, I am beating myself up enough, I just need some advice on where to go from here.


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## mybuddy (Mar 2, 2007)

Aleksandrina said:


> First of all, a 4 and a half month old puppy should not be sleeping in your bed. That’s what crates and dog beds are for.


 
Really? Why? Buddy is 12 years old and has never slept in a crate or a dog bed in his life. He's fine. More than fine, actually.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

IF you can learn to control your temper and keep your violence to yourself for minor infractions - get yourself a good trainer who can help you rebuild your relationship with your puppy. You have proven to your puppy that you cannot be trusted so it is up to you to try to regain that trust.

If you cannot keep your violent tendencies from surfacing, rehome your puppy.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Tennyson said:


> Wait............where did this come from? Who said a puppy can't sleep in their owners bed?


That's exactly what I thought.  My dogs have _always_ slept on my bed.


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## Anon-2130948gsoni (Apr 12, 2014)

Honey, you're doing the best you can. The fact is that dogs bring out soooo much stuff in us...I ADORE my dogs but it doesn't mean I don't call them evil names (albeit in a very happy voice) on a regular basis.

You might want to read, "A Pack of Two," by Caroline Knapp. It addresses how complicated our relationships with our dogs can be, both for good and for bad.

No one, NO ONE is a perfect pet owner. Our dogs love us anyway and we all get back up and try again. Trying again is what love is about.

I admire your honesty and your bravery in coming to ask for help. You can do this.


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## mybuddy (Mar 2, 2007)

Aleksandrina said:


> As far as I'm concerned, a puppy shouldn't be allowed to sleep in your bed until he is fully trained, including potty training and the ability to always recognize and follow basic commands ("no" and "off" being 2 of them.) 4.5 months is too young for both in my opinion.


I guess it depends on the dog and the owner. Buddy was trained at that age so he was fine. He was always in my bed and was never an issue.


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## Aleksandrina (May 27, 2014)

mybuddy said:


> Really? Why? Buddy is 12 years old and has never slept in a crate or a dog bed in his life. He's fine. More than fine, actually.


I just explained "why" above. I personally don't think that having a puppy pee in your bed in the middle of the night (because his bladder hasn't completely developed at 4.5 months) constitutes "fun."  

And that's just one scenario that comes to my mind...


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## mybuddy (Mar 2, 2007)

Aleksandrina said:


> I just explained "why" above. I personally don't think that having a puppy pee in your bed in the middle of the night (because his bladder hasn't completely developed at 4.5 months) constitutes "fun."
> 
> And that's just one scenario that comes to my mind...


 I guess we were typing that at the same time which is "why" I didn't see your explanation.

To each his own.


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## Tennyson (Mar 26, 2011)

Aleksandrina said:


> As far as I'm concerned, a puppy shouldn't be allowed to sleep in your bed until he is fully trained, including potty training and the ability to always recognize and follow basic commands ("no" and "off" being 2 of them.) 4.5 months is too young for both in my opinion.


 Well your opinion on this is not absolute.
Since you didn't provide a link to a study suggesting puppies will become wild if they sleep on owner's beds it's just your opinion.
You've had your puppy for 10 days. Maybe wait a month before you reference your personal absolutes.


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## Anon-2130948gsoni (Apr 12, 2014)

Sunrise said:


> IF you can learn to control your temper and keep your violence to yourself for minor infractions - get yourself a good trainer who can help you rebuild your relationship with your puppy. You have proven to your puppy that you cannot be trusted so it is up to you to try to regain that trust.
> 
> If you cannot keep your violent tendencies from surfacing, rehome your puppy.


With all due respect, this isn't helpful. I understand your frustration, but is there a pet owner among us who can honestly say they have never been at their wit's end with a dog? This isn't a regular pattern, she's asking for help, and trying to make things better. It takes real courage to come here and ask for help, knowing the kind of reaction she was likely to get.


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## Bentleysmom (Aug 11, 2012)

Noreaster said:


> Honey, you're doing the best you can. The fact is that dogs bring out soooo much stuff in us...I ADORE my dogs but it doesn't mean I don't* call them evil names (albeit in a very happy voice) on a regular basis.*
> 
> You might want to read, "A Pack of Two," by Caroline Knapp. It addresses how complicated our relationships with our dogs can be, both for good and for bad.
> 
> ...


This made me laugh out loud!! I can't tell you how many times I say to Bentley "You are a very big pain in the behind , oh yes you are" in a VERY happy voice. His tail wags like he's getting the best compliment in the world LOL


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Aleksandrina said:


> As far as I'm concerned, a puppy shouldn't be allowed to sleep in your bed until he is fully trained, including potty training...


For me the easiest way to potty train a puppy is to _have_ them in bed with me. I know exactly when they wake up and need to be taken out. I get up, take them out, then bring them right back to bed with me and right back to sleep. I've always done this and have never had any issues at all.


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## Tennyson (Mar 26, 2011)

leximoo said:


> Thank you for the support.
> 
> Aleksandrina - I know it was wrong. It has been two or three hours and he is fast asleep beside me on the bed and I am on my laptop crying about it because I really do feel very, very bad about it. I use positive reinforcement to train my dogs and this puppy to do everything. Everything the pup knows I did with positive reinforcement.
> 
> ...


You'll be fine. Times get tough with your puppy you just come on this forum and either vent or search. 
Mostly great advice can be found here.


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## Aleksandrina (May 27, 2014)

Tennyson said:


> Well your opinion on this is not absolute.
> Since you didn't provide a link to a study suggesting puppies will become wild if they sleep on owner's beds it's just your opinion.
> You've had your puppy for 10 days. Maybe wait a month before you
> reference your personal absolutes.


Did I say that my opinion is "absolute?" No. It's a forum where everyone is free to express their opinion. And that's exactly what I did. 

Also, I've had 4 other dogs prior to Theo. And my parents were breeders for about 14 years before they moved to New York. So don't be so quick to judge me.  

If you want a study that explains how dog bladders grow with age, feel free to Google it yourself. I would've gladly provided you with one, but I'm not sure I appreciate your attitude towards me.

Having a puppy this young in bed at night _might_ create a problem. Simple as that.


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## jeffro01 (Feb 3, 2010)

Tough crowd here... I'd venture to guess that most everyone, regardless of whether they want to admit it or feel like getting off of their high horse, has had a moment of over aggression in the disciplining of their dog, children, etc... 

The problem comes in when that's the first method of correction, when you instill fear. It sounds like that isn't even in the realm of applicability in this case so I would worry not. 

For whatever reason, some people are extremely judgmental and over the top arrogant in how quickly and strongly they are to point fingers. The way you worded your OP was a clear sign of you being afraid of those people to which I would say, ignore them. Perfection is awfully hard for humans to obtain so we wouldn't want that to get in the way of those who seem to think they've obtained it...

Jeff


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## Bentleysmom (Aug 11, 2012)

And....I'm out. Good luck with your dog and good on you for having the courage to bring up this topic. 
When I see someone that wants to argue for arguing sake and act like they're C. Millan I have to stear away from the thread for my own well being. Best of luck ♥


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

I'm not going to respond at all to the part about hitting your dog. I get from your posts that you believe it was the wrong thing to do. There's absolutely nothing I can say on the topic that would be at all helpful and, quite frankly, I would end up being very rude. I want to respond to something else you mentioned in your first post. You stated that you routinely walk your 4.5 month old puppy off-leash along the road. Let me make this very clear: there is no 4 month old puppy on earth who will never again in their life miss a single recall command. Puppies go through fear stages. What if your puppy were to be spooked by some unexpected sight or sound and take off into the road? Puppies go through.... Let's call them "forgetful"... stages where they seem to have no idea what you are asking even though they knew it yesterday. What if your puppy finds himself "forgetting" what "come" means just as a truck is coming down the road? Puppies go through rebellious stages. What if your puppy blatantly blows you off and takes off running to parts unknown? Puppies eventually notice bunnies or squirrels and discover their prey drive. Bunnies and squirrels have no respect for the road and frequently wind up as road kill. Though this risk remains to some degree throughout a dog's entire life (please see the recent threads regarding Bone, a golden who went missing from a Massachusetts dog show when he ran scared from a crashing awning), the risk to a pup of this age, who has had only a few months to learn your rules and who is barely the dog equivalent of a toddler, is astronomical. I don't care how "strict" of a trainer you think you are. This puppy has a heck of a lot of growing up to do. How would it feel to know that your puppy died or was otherwise lost for no better reason than your arrogance? Please protect that puppies life. Put him on a leash and get back into classes with a trainer who has some idea what they are doing and who can guide you and teach you. 

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

With all due respect, I did find my response helpful -- if the OP can learn to control her temper, she should enlist the help of a qualified trainer - to help her train her puppy and to guide her through puppy antics; in addition to giving her someone to call when things happen. 

As someone who grew up in an abusive home, I can assure you that I know full well that it takes a lot of work and discipline to learn to control the impulse to strike out & hurt. Some people can learn, others cannot. 

And yeah, when I ran into problems with my first golden, I called a trainer and worked very very hard with my trainer.



Noreaster said:


> With all due respect, this isn't helpful. I understand your frustration, but is there a pet owner among us who can honestly say they have never been at their wit's end with a dog? This isn't a regular pattern, she's asking for help, and trying to make things better. It takes real courage to come here and ask for help, knowing the kind of reaction she was likely to get.


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## leximoo (Aug 12, 2014)

Alright, thanks guys. I appreciate every one of your replies.

I guess I am in shock that I would even do this myself to be honest, but thank you for your thoughts and opinions.

Bentleysmom and Noreaster - Truly thank you for understanding and reassuring me, it does help. I have vowed to puppy never to touch him like this again, and I will even be careful not to raise my voice with him in the future.

With regards to how I am training my puppy - Please don't get me wrong. I'm not stupid. I would not let him off leash on a highway, or any road, whether it was a main road or a backstreet road. We live in a very, very quiet (almost dead) town, where there is a population of maybe 100. We have a 5 minute walk from my house to the woods, and maybe 1 car can be heard during all of that time. I have taught him to walk beside me on the sidewalk when we are walking to the woods, and as soon as we get there, after he sits and waits for a treat, he can go and play and enjoy himself. I would never walk him on a normal, busy road without a leash. I don't want him to die because of my negligence. I have some free time since I am not working, and just thought it would be nice for him if I could teach him to walk with me on the sidewalk. I have taught him to ignore squirrels when heeling, not to go into the road on any circumstance, not to walk ahead of me but beside me, slightly behind, and even his most favourite (bunnies and flying leaves), he knows to leave when we are heel walking without the leash. If I ever deem it unsafe, he is on the leash. On windy days he is on the leash. When it is busy road times (3 cars, max), he is on the leash. He sits at the road crossing before we cross, he is well behaved. When he goes through fear stages, I know about it. Then he is on the leash. When he becomes a teenager, he will be on the leash. I am not trying to jeopardize his safety, I just wanted to mention how much time I spend training him so you understand how much I care and love him!


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## Rkaymay (May 12, 2014)

I just want to say, you hit your pup ONE time. His trust in you, while momentarily confused, is probably NOT destroyed. Keep hitting him and it will be, but by your obvious repentance, I don't believe you want that to happen again.

Many of us here, however unwilling to admit it, have hit their dogs or come very close. Don't worry so much about regaining your puppies trust - the wonderful thing about dogs is how quickly they forgive. Worry instead about preventing the incident from happening again.

Like others have said - find a trainer, someone who can relate to you as well as your pup, and relax. You'll be just fine.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

leximoo said:


> With regards to how I am training my puppy - Please don't get me wrong. I'm not stupid. I would not let him off leash on a highway, or any road, whether it was a main road or a backstreet road. We live in a very, very quiet (almost dead) town, where there is a population of maybe 100. We have a 5 minute walk from my house to the woods, and maybe 1 car can be heard during all of that time. I have taught him to walk beside me on the sidewalk when we are walking to the woods, and as soon as we get there, after he sits and waits for a treat, he can go and play and enjoy himself. I would never walk him on a normal, busy road without a leash. I don't want him to die because of my negligence. I have some free time since I am not working, and just thought it would be nice for him if I could teach him to walk with me on the sidewalk. I have taught him to ignore squirrels when heeling, not to go into the road on any circumstance, not to walk ahead of me but beside me, slightly behind, and even his most favourite (bunnies and flying leaves), he knows to leave when we are heel walking without the leash. If I ever deem it unsafe, he is on the leash. On windy days he is on the leash. When it is busy road times (3 cars, max), he is on the leash. He sits at the road crossing before we cross, he is well behaved. When he goes through fear stages, I know about it. Then he is on the leash. When he becomes a teenager, he will be on the leash. I am not trying to jeopardize his safety, I just wanted to mention how much time I spend training him so you understand how much I care and love him!



I don't think you're stupid. But I do think that you are significantly overestimating the self control, focus, and level of understanding a 4.5 month old puppy possesses. It only takes one car at an inopportune time to end your puppy's life. It may, in fact, be all the more risky for your pup's lack of exposure to vehicles and your resulting lack of opportunity to train him to ignore or keep away from them. Can you honestly predict every sight, sound and breeze that you will encounter on a walk? Can you honestly predict the exact moment when your pup will hit a fear stage or when that teenage rebellion will begin? Again, I don't think you are stupid. Note that the word I used was arrogance, not ignorance. 

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## alphadude (Jan 15, 2010)

Jersey's Mom said:


> I'm not going to respond at all to the part about hitting your dog. I get from your posts that you believe it was the wrong thing to do. There's absolutely nothing I can say on the topic that would be at all helpful and, quite frankly, I would end up being very rude. I want to respond to something else you mentioned in your first post. You stated that you routinely walk your 4.5 month old puppy off-leash along the road. Let me make this very clear: there is no 4 month old puppy on earth who will never again in their life miss a single recall command. Puppies go through fear stages. What if your puppy were to be spooked by some unexpected sight or sound and take off into the road? Puppies go through.... Let's call them "forgetful"... stages where they seem to have no idea what you are asking even though they knew it yesterday. What if your puppy finds himself "forgetting" what "come" means just as a truck is coming down the road? Puppies go through rebellious stages. What if your puppy blatantly blows you off and takes off running to parts unknown? Puppies eventually notice bunnies or squirrels and discover their prey drive. Bunnies and squirrels have no respect for the road and frequently wind up as road kill. Though this risk remains to some degree throughout a dog's entire life (please see the recent threads regarding Bone, a golden who went missing from a Massachusetts dog show when he ran scared from a crashing awning), the risk to a pup of this age, who has had only a few months to learn your rules and who is barely the dog equivalent of a toddler, is astronomical. I don't care how "strict" of a trainer you think you are. This puppy has a heck of a lot of growing up to do. How would it feel to know that your puppy died or was otherwise lost for no better reason than your arrogance? Please protect that puppies life. Put him on a leash and get back into classes with a trainer who has some idea what they are doing and who can guide you and teach you.
> 
> Julie, Jersey and Oz
> 
> ...


Thought I was the only one who fixated on that part. Ax is *extremely* well trained and responds to my verbal and visual commands without question. I would NEVER walk him along a road without a leash. All it would take is one squirrel or a momentary lapse and he could be KILLED...in 3 seconds. I value his life *W A Y* more than to take a chance like that. 

BTW, This is from a guy who has his dog(s) off leash 95% of the time... just not along a road. Nothing good can *possibly* come of it.


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## Anon-2130948gsoni (Apr 12, 2014)

I'm glad you're feeling better. I think you can do this, I really do.

I do worry, though, that when your dog hits that magical adolescent moment, you will no longer have the kind of verbal control you have right now. It's nature's way, really...you're the mama, and like all adolescents, your dog is going to test your limits in every way possible! You might want to seriously consider keeping him on a leash whenever you're on the roadside, no matter how little traffic there is, just because you never know when that magical hormonal moment might arrive. Even with my adult dogs--I live on a one-lane private road that's nearly two miles from the nearest paved road...and it's 25 mph even there...I always have my dogs on a leash, regardless. Why yes, I am paranoid , but far better for me to be safe than so desperately, desperately sorry.


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## Dancer (Apr 5, 2010)

If you feel this is a problem and not how you want to raise your pup, then by all means find other methods. But I have smacked my dogs, I have given them a jerk by the scruff, and I have even kicked a ball at Steve when he was about a year old and digging in my flower bed. He now thinks I can teach him anywhere! Nothing I have ever done to them has been as physically aggressive and potentially painful as the things they do when playing with each other. I'm not ashamed, sorry, or sad about it. I am not abusive, uncaring, or cruel. My dogs are trusting, kind, mostly obedient, and the easiest dogs to be around of any that we babysit or hang out with. (Yeah that's right- other people line up to leave their dogs with us because they like how their dogs are looked after by us). Interestingly enough, the people who know me do not labour under the impression that I am the devil EVEN THOUGH I will physically discipline my dogs if I feel it's appropriate. 

To the OP: if YOU feel it's a problem, then change it, but don't beat yourself up because of what you or other people are perceiving as a lapse in judgement. Just move on and change if that's what you need to do. 

To my fellow forum members: tolerance. Just because people are utilizing a different method of raising dogs than you are choosing to use doesn't make you right and them wrong. I am certain many people will disagree with me and will feel entitled to tell me I'm a bad person for raising my dogs this way. But being opinionated won't make me change what I perceive as a perfectly legitimate method if raising my beautiful golden family. And I KNOW there are a lot if other people on here who do things as I do, but who don't feel any more free to share that with people than I previously have because it's exhausting to defend yourself against a barrage of self-righteous indignant dog owners. So why don't we call a truce ? How about everyone just shows respect to each other as fellow golden lovers who are all trying to do best by their dog?? How about we ALL feel free to offer advice or opinions on what's worked for us? And most importantly: how about we all try to understand that not everyone will do things or think the way ourselves do, but that doesn't make them bad people or bad golden parents??? 



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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

I agree, one time isn't going to ruin your relationship with your puppy. But, you said you couldn't have a partner or children because of the way you feel you would treat them and that people that know you would consider you an abuser. Please continue to get help for this. What you hit your puppy for was a very minor infraction. I don't want to keep hounding that point, but my concern is if that was your response for humping how will you deal with stuff a teenage dog can get into and the destruction they can do. I just think you need to give that some serious thought and have a plan ready for how to deal with your reflex anger. We've all been furious with our puppies at some point in time, but you will need a plan for how to control your instinct to hit.

For the walking to the park, if it is such a short walk to an area that he can play, and you are having him in that tight of a heel, what difference would it be to snap a leash on? From your description he probably wouldn't notice any difference and it could save his life if you aren't 1000% correct about his training.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

You seem torn between your pride in being a strict trainer and knowing that you went way too far. I went to an interesting lecture by a well known dog trainer, and one of his objections to punishment training between humans and animals is that is is reinforcing for the human. We like to punish. I still do not know if I believe that, but I chewed on it alot.

From growing up with dogs and horses, and also teaching English to teenagers, I have never lost my temper with a dog. For sure though, I have gone too far and said an awful thing here and there in human romantic relationships- you have that sinking feeling what is done cannot be undone. Usually, things normalize again, and it is not that bad and the damage can be repaired. I am not comparing the two kinds of relationships, but just the horrible feeling of wishing to hit rewind on a moment and take it back.

I think it is important to soul-search why this happened, and not let it ever happen again. The pups entire view of the world,itself in the world, and humans is shaped by you and you have all the power.


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## Max's Dad (Apr 23, 2012)

Aleksandrina said:


> First of all, a 4 and a half month old puppy should not be sleeping in your bed. That’s what crates and dog beds are for.
> 
> Max slept on our bed his first night home at 11 weeks old. He was fine. Now he sleeps in our bedroom in various spots, sometimes on the bed. We got him a dog bed--he did not use it; he has never been in a crate.


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

Aleksandrina said:


> I just explained "why" above. I personally don't think that having a puppy pee in your bed in the middle of the night (because his bladder hasn't completely developed at 4.5 months) constitutes "fun."
> 
> And that's just one scenario that comes to my mind...


Max never had an accident in the house after he was home for 2 weeks - so he was about 10 weeks old - about 2 months shy of 4.5 months. He slept in his crate because he seemed to like it - and he never peed in it, so I doubt he would have peed in my bed had he been sleeping there.


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

Bentleysmom said:


> This made me laugh out loud!! I can't tell you how many times I say to Bentley "You are a very big pain in the behind , oh yes you are" in a VERY happy voice. His tail wags like he's getting the best compliment in the world LOL


Me too
I used to tell Max, while smiling and being very happy, "I'm going to take you to Hake's (local small grocery store) and have them turn you into Max burgers, yes, I am!"


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## wjane (Oct 12, 2013)

I'm not a psychiatrist, but it sounds like you have some unresolved anger issues - whether they be warranted or not due to your upbringing. You have it within you to overcome your past and I will say this, that little bundle of fluff that you have is counting on you for everything and will forgive you many times over and always be there for you. I wish you the best in your future endeavors.


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## Bwilson (Mar 25, 2014)

Don't beat yourself up to much it effected you more then the puppy probably. Tomorrow is a new day and just treat it like you always do. May consider get him neutered when he is allowed so you don't have to deal with the hormone changes. I understand sometimes losing my temper and will have to take some breathers. You can always try a rubber band on your wrist to pop on yourself or a stress ball. I understand the whole mental and physical abuse and have to try not to turn back to how I was raised. Hopefully this puppy will open your world up and will teach you a lot of patients and eventually help you with more personal relationships with people. You picked a breed that will attract some attention. Once you get through these next difficult stages it will get better and you will have a friend for life. Hang in there and remeber that we all make mistakes and just learn from it and move on.


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## gobolts (Dec 22, 2013)

I understand that you are remorseful over this which is good but I am still wondering why the gigantic overreaction because a puppy was humping your leg.


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## maggiesmommy (Feb 23, 2010)

laprincessa said:


> Me too
> I used to tell Max, while smiling and being very happy, "I'm going to take you to Hake's (local small grocery store) and have them turn you into Max burgers, yes, I am!"


With our first Golden, Sammi, every time she was naughty...which was often...my mom would say, in a sing song voice "Pack all your belongings, you're going to the pound."

To the OP, don't beat yourself up too much about 1 smack...your puppy has probably already forgotten about it. It is good that you recognize it as going too far and want to prevent it in the future. I always think of being a puppy like you being dropped into a foreign country. At first, you don't speak the language and you don't understand the customs, but as you live in this country you eventually learn enough of the language to get by and you learn how to behave in that society.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

leximoo said:


> he immediately stopped and looked at me, stunned. I continued to say no, about 5 more times.


I didn't see anyone else bring this up, but what would be really confusing for the dog is for you to continue to tell him no after he stopped. If you told him no, hit him and he stopped, but you kept telling him no, how does he know what he's in trouble for? For being on the bed? For panting? For being gold? Obviously some of that is an ridiculous, but the point is a dog isn't going to associate his prior behavior with you still telling him no. It's just as important to let the dog know when they are doing the right thing (not humping), or it's just as confusing to the dog as why their owner just hit them.


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## Max's Dad (Apr 23, 2012)

Members often post pictures of their dog(s) when they first join. Do you have photos of your boy? What is his name? Is he a Golden? I know we all enjoy seeing pictures of puppies.


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## lhowemt (Jun 28, 2013)

Loisiana said:


> I didn't see anyone else bring this up, but what would be really confusing for the dog is for you to continue to tell him no after he stopped. If you told him no, hit him and he stopped, but you kept telling him no, how does he know what he's in trouble for?


Thank you, I was about to make that point, I completely agree. Never punish a dog AFTER it has done what you want. Yelled at and hut for humping, yelled at for not humping. Yelled at until he got off the bed confused.

The other is do you really train 5-6 hours a day with a 4.5 month old puppy? Strict training? Wow, that has got to be overloading for him! He may be burnt out, on the training, or associate it with you, and more sensitive than you realize until now. It should be fun, especially at that age! Don't overdo it!


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Jersey's Mom said:


> I'm not going to respond at all to the part about hitting your dog. I get from your posts that you believe it was the wrong thing to do. There's absolutely nothing I can say on the topic that would be at all helpful and, quite frankly, I would end up being very rude. I want to respond to something else you mentioned in your first post. You stated that you routinely walk your 4.5 month old puppy off-leash along the road. Let me make this very clear: there is no 4 month old puppy on earth who will never again in their life miss a single recall command. Puppies go through fear stages. What if your puppy were to be spooked by some unexpected sight or sound and take off into the road? Puppies go through.... Let's call them "forgetful"... stages where they seem to have no idea what you are asking even though they knew it yesterday. What if your puppy finds himself "forgetting" what "come" means just as a truck is coming down the road? Puppies go through rebellious stages. What if your puppy blatantly blows you off and takes off running to parts unknown? Puppies eventually notice bunnies or squirrels and discover their prey drive. Bunnies and squirrels have no respect for the road and frequently wind up as road kill. Though this risk remains to some degree throughout a dog's entire life (please see the recent threads regarding Bone, a golden who went missing from a Massachusetts dog show when he ran scared from a crashing awning), the risk to a pup of this age, who has had only a few months to learn your rules and who is barely the dog equivalent of a toddler, is astronomical. I don't care how "strict" of a trainer you think you are. This puppy has a heck of a lot of growing up to do. How would it feel to know that your puppy died or was otherwise lost for no better reason than your arrogance? Please protect that puppies life. Put him on a leash and get back into classes with a trainer who has some idea what they are doing and who can guide you and teach you.
> 
> Julie, Jersey and Oz
> 
> ...


I was going to comment on this as well. A 4.5 month old puppy is YEARS too young to be allowed off leash, especially next to a road. Your puppy is going to see a leaf blowing in the wind and go chasing it right into the street and could be hit by a car, or get scared by a loud noise and bolt off down the street and never be seen again. A 4.5 month old puppy has toddler mentality, he is NOT trained and you are risking his life letting him off leash on walks. Please put him on a leash and keep him on it when you take him out.

As far as the incident on the bed, let it go and move on. Reflex reaction or not, just ensure you never do it again.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

gobolts said:


> I understand that you are remorseful over this which is good but I am still wondering why the gigantic overreaction because a puppy was humping your leg.


I'm wondering that also.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

leximoo said:


> Alright, thanks guys. I appreciate every one of your replies.
> 
> I guess I am in shock that I would even do this myself to be honest, but thank you for your thoughts and opinions.
> 
> ...


This is all great training, keep it up it will serve you well as he gets older and you will end up with a beautifully trained, well behaved dog, but do it on leash.

But you are expecting what is essentially a baby to understand, remember, and always perform correctly. Think about how many parents take a preschooler shopping and turn around and the child has wandered off. Of course the parents have told the child, taught the child they are supposed to stay with them, but they are preschoolers they aren't going to remember, or they are going to disregard because something "over there" caught their attention. You are basically in the same point in his development.


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## Aleksandrina (May 27, 2014)

Max's Dad said:


> Max slept on our bed his first night home at 11 weeks old. He was fine. Now he sleeps in our bedroom in various spots, sometimes on the bed. We got him a dog bed--he did not use it; he has never been in a crate.


Off topic - I am happy for you that Max was able to sleep in your bed with no accidents. I decided to give this a try. I just attempted to have Theo in the bed (for less than 10 minutes.) 

And guess what? He peed on our bed... I took him off of it to clean it up. And he managed to poop in the corridor in the meantime. :doh: 

I now have a guilty-looking pup, an annoyed husband and a comforter that needs washing. (And the building's laundry is closed until tomorrow. So I guess we get to sleep with no comforter tonight.) 

I think it's safe to say that my little experiment has failed. And until we have Theo fully potty-trained, I am keeping him off the bed.


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## mybuddy (Mar 2, 2007)

Buddy peed on my bed once but wasn't until he was almost 4 years old. Strange thing. I was just watching TV, he jumped up as he always does, peed and ran away. I am pretty sure he was just try to piss me off (no pun intended). Once I got over the initial shock, I laughed hysterically. It was just so bizarre and random. 

He really was a prodigy puppy


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## Max's Dad (Apr 23, 2012)

Aleksandrina said:


> Off topic - I am happy for you that Max was able to sleep in your bed with no accidents. I decided to give this a try. I just attempted to have Theo in the bed (for less than 10 minutes.)
> 
> And guess what? He peed on our bed... I took him off of it to clean it up. And he managed to poop in the corridor in the meantime. :doh:
> 
> ...


Well, that goes to show that every puppy is different.  We were lucky with Max. He was extremely easy to housebreak. Sorry to hear about your soiled comforter. Given what happened, keeping Theo off the bed is probably a good idea.


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## tine434 (Nov 24, 2013)

I couldn't read every single post but as a social worker after what I did read I felt a ton of empathy and also sickness...

First off,
OP are you seeking help for your childhood and now adult difficulties? Because having a dog is just like having a child or a partner. It is having someone intimately connected with you who you can easily turn to and hurt, because they are so vulnerable.
Why must you be such a "strict trainer"? Is this a form of over control as a way to manage what you COULDN'T control in your own life?
Dogs can be well behaved without being over strict. My dogs are very well behaved, but boy you should read my crazy days with them! But at the same time, Rem got a dead animal one time, said drop it, and he did immediately. Now, does he do crazy and insane antics? Yes! But that's because he is a puppy and his concentration is very little if not nonexistent at times.

Please seek help for yourself so you can heal. If you think you could never have a spouse or child or family, then don't assume a dog is any different or a miracle worker. You have deep wounds it seems.

As far as the training. If your puppy knew no for 3 weeks very well, then he probably would have stopped at no. Humping is excitement. Like how a kitten attacks your toes under a blanket when you move them, a puppy gets super excited and can't help it. It isn't controlling, dominance, or sexual.


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## Rkaymay (May 12, 2014)

Aleksandrina said:


> Off topic - I am happy for you that Max was able to sleep in your bed with no accidents. I decided to give this a try. I just attempted to have Theo in the bed (for less than 10 minutes.)
> 
> And guess what? He peed on our bed... I took him off of it to clean it up. And he managed to poop in the corridor in the meantime. :doh:
> 
> ...


Zelda peed in my bed probably 20 times over the first 5 months of her life. I washed my sheets sooo many times. Even after her accidents decreased, she still managed to have them in my bed. And yes, I crated her until she turned 6 months - for some reason, if she had to pee in my room, it just happened to be on my bed. So these things can happen even if they're crated at night!

That being said, I wish she had been able to sleep outside her crate before 6 months, but she wasn't ready. Some dogs are; others are not. It really depends on the dog.


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## leximoo. (Aug 13, 2014)

tine434 said:


> I couldn't read every single post but as a social worker after what I did read I felt a ton of empathy and also sickness...
> 
> First off,
> OP are you seeking help for your childhood and now adult difficulties? Because having a dog is just like having a child or a partner. It is having someone intimately connected with you who you can easily turn to and hurt, because they are so vulnerable.
> ...


(I am OP)

Yes, I am receiving help for my problems of course. I'm a difficult case, so far nothing has made much difference in several years, but I am still receiving help nonetheless.

I would NOT abuse a spouse or family member, maybe I did not phrase that correctly. My parents would call me abusers, because of what I did to them when I grew older. I thought, and still do think, that they deserved it. Medical professionals said it was the fault of my parents for provoking me. But nonetheless, I would never have human family because I know how vulnerable I myself am and how I could not cope with it. 

You are right, tine434, I think I am trying to have immaculate behavior from the dog as a means of controlling something in my life. I'm not unfair in general, but I am strict. He can do whatever he wants, just that if I ask him to do/not to do something I expect it done or not done. I wont chase after the dog, and if the dog doesn't listen to me then I take that as a fault of my own where I have not trained him properly, so I go back to more positive reinforcement training. I just do not want the dog to be a burden or to make me upset, because I have nothing else in my life so I suppose it feels very important to me. And there is nothing wrong with this either, in my opinion. It is my dog, and the dog is an animal. I would never intentionally hurt the dog. That is why I posted this here, to get suggestions about how to manage his behavior, not my behavior. I know my behavior needs addressing, and I am the best person to address that.



At the end of the day, I don't really want my puppy to hump me, or anything/anyone else. What do I do to correct that behavior, and stop him humping people, other, larger, dogs, as he frequently gets snapped at for it.


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## leximoo. (Aug 13, 2014)

And to others with regards to my training and what I am teaching him: back off.

He is a bright boy, and I am very, very careful. I would not, ever put his life in jeopardy. I have been working with dogs for a long time, and everybody who has met him comments on how well behaved and polite he is. people hardly believe he is 4.5 months because of his behavior. He is *NOT* just like this because he is a puppy. In fact, before I started training him so intensely, he was very troublesome. He would not walk on the lead for a LONG time, even with trainers' help, after learning recall he would decide to ignore it for other dogs' attention or waste food on the ground, he would jump up on people, he would run off. He even ran off at one point in the woods and ignored the recall completely. Yes, IGNORED, not because he didn't know it. After then, I began working with him for long periods each day, making it very, very fun. Feeding him bacon, sausages, delicious chicken, and now a month later people are amazed that he walks perfectly without a leash on roadside, that he does not EVER jump up on people, and that he responds immediately to his recall when 60 metres away playing with 3 other dogs and enjoying himself.

Yes, my expectations are high. And I like it, he likes it too. He has more freedom than any other dog, especially of his age, and in return for it, I have taught him to behave well. When we are walking in woodland areas, he is off having fun, I don't keep him by my side, he walks ahead, smells, explores, plays, but he *listens* now.

Yes, he has been through fear periods OFF LEASH on busy roads. And you know what? I know when the time comes and I put extra measures in place to ensure he is safe. He has been off leash during fear periods when a house alarm was going, motor cyclists were passing, horns were beeping, and I worked with him to ensure that he knew things were alright without nurturing the fear and without him running off.

He was crated for only one week. Then his crate was taken out and is gone. He sleeps on the bed, he likes it, and he has not once soiled it. Because I have trained him well does not mean you can call it 'arrogance' and misjudgement. He was housetrained in 6 days. After 10 weeks old, he has never had any accidents indoors again. That goes not just for my house, but for other peoples' houses, in stores, and in cars.

I don't need training advice and lectures, especially from inexperienced chatterboxes. I was asking for thoughts and suggestions regarding the over-correction I gave him, we all make mistakes, and what people thought I could do to rectify any damage done. I already knew about instilling trust after an issue like this, but I wanted _additional_ opinions from what I _thought_ was a fairly decent community.

And for the record, he is still the same happy boy today, is not hand shy, is enjoying my company, and still enjoys the bed.


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## Anon-2130948gsoni (Apr 12, 2014)

I don't want to upset you further, I really don't, but as someone who has raised several dogs from puppies, what you have at 4.5 months in most cases is completely different from what you will be dealing with when he reaches adolescence, which could be any day now. Do a search on this board on teen pups and see how many owners have the world's greatest puppy...and then the world's worst teen! 

So I hope you will forgive him AND YOURSELF when that inevitable day comes that he's not perfect and he starts to test your boundaries about everything, especially recalls. It's easy to assume that all training progress is linear and cumulative, but it really isn't, especially when you are dealing with an adolescent dog.


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## Tayla's Mom (Apr 20, 2012)

People here gave you their best advice. Some people didn't post anything because some things are better left unsaid. However, insults are never appreciated by anyone and to call people who were offering you honest advice "inexperienced chatterboxes" is uncalled for. I'm sorry you have had a bad life. Many have. When you post on a forum you get lots of responses especially when you supply so much information. If you just wanted a response on humping you only needed to as how do I stop my dog from humping?


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## ktkins7 (Jul 20, 2013)

I'm not going to get into with anyone so if anyone comments negatively on my post trying to stary something I'm just going to ignore it. 

Mistakes happen. You understand hitting your dog is not the right answer. What had happened did so in the spur of the moment. I see it at work all the time with humans. What I've been telling people is when they feel themselves getting frustrated or whatever their own indicator is of losing their temper, is to remove themselves from the situation. Whether it's in another room or going out sonewhere. Redirect yourself. Do an activity that you can either use as an outlet or that will calm you down. Exercise, hitting a punching bag, video games, taking a walk, etc. If you can trust yourself not to hit your dog you can take him if he relaxes you, but not where if he misbehaves it's only going to make it worse. This may not apply to you but I'm just trying to help prevent a future repeat. 

As for the trust issue. I'm sure everyone has lost their temper with their dog at some point. I know I've yelled at Ella rarely when she has done something very naughty. It only gets her more excited. I have used my hand hard enough to get her attention, but for me it's been more of a tap then a hit, just enough to distract. Personally I don't think only 1 slip us will ruin your bond with your dog unless your bond was very fragile to begin with. Just keep up what your doing working with him and make sure he has positive experiences with you. Maybe do sone classes together if you can, like nose work or agility when he's old enough (I don't know the age).

That's it from me. Good luck.


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## leximoo. (Aug 13, 2014)

ktkins7 said:


> I'm not going to get into with anyone so if anyone comments negatively on my post trying to stary something I'm just going to ignore it.
> 
> Mistakes happen. You understand hitting your dog is not the right answer. What had happened did so in the spur of the moment. I see it at work all the time with humans. What I've been telling people is when they feel themselves getting frustrated or whatever their own indicator is of losing their temper, is to remove themselves from the situation. Whether it's in another room or going out sonewhere. Redirect yourself. Do an activity that you can either use as an outlet or that will calm you down. Exercise, hitting a punching bag, video games, taking a walk, etc. If you can trust yourself not to hit your dog you can take him if he relaxes you, but not where if he misbehaves it's only going to make it worse. This may not apply to you but I'm just trying to help prevent a future repeat.
> 
> ...


thank you, I appreciate it and will give these a try.


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## Tayla's Mom (Apr 20, 2012)

Nose work can be done at any age and it is a wonderful activity for focus, but not a good activity if YOU want control. Unlike obedience, in nose work the dog is in control.


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## Katduf (Mar 10, 2013)

Physical punishment is never ok. Two words...Anger. Management. 


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## boomers_dawn (Sep 20, 2009)

I'm afraid for your puppy. Walking in the street off leash may work ok now, but when your puppy gets a little older, he may start testing limits and as others pointed out, all it takes is a second for tragedy to happen. Just like letting toddlers and children out in traffic. They need us to keep them safe, to provide structure and boundaries and clear expectations.

Our trainer suggests puppies don't sleep on the bed until they're well trained an know their role - that the human is the boss - so you can say "off" and they will get off the bed. That way you can use an "off" or "leave it" when your dog is well enough trained to commands to do what you say when you say it. That way you can just say "off" or "leave it" .

His suggestion is age 2 - again when they're well trained, mature, and understand their role.

Best wishes to you.


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## tine434 (Nov 24, 2013)

You said you wouldn't intentionally hurt your dog but this hit was unintentional. So therefore obviously what you unintentionally do is important to you. 

You just said you need advice for your dog's behavior not yours. You never asked how to curb the humping behavior you asked about the dual relationship between you and him and trust and things, which does involve YOU and your behavior.

That's all I have to say.


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

I didn't read everything.

Love the comment she/he made: "been working on it for a long time". The puppy is 4.5 months old. that's 18 weeks, 8 of which were with it's mother. NOT a long time to be working with a puppy.

Love the comment: "walking off leash beside the road as long as he listens". When he chooses NOT to listens, he will be running in front of a car and getting killed. 

You need to stop using this puppy to validate yourself: people are amazed he's so well trained. 

Let people be amazed that he's so cute and cuddly at this age. 

I'm not nearly as upset about the random smack on the fanny as I am about the whole general attitude of this owner. Your statements about what he has LEARNED in the last 10 weeks shows that you might be a very strict trainer with high expectations but you don't know dogs. A puppy of this age can't KNOW anything...nothing is proofed. No behavior can be counted on. I suspect the pup has shut down because it isn't being allowed to be a puppy and just be nuts in a safe, fenced in area. Too sad that OP is missing out on the best part of having a puppy...the PUPPY. Plenty of time later for the well-trained DOG. :-(


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

I just want to mention that a 4.5 month old pup has been alive on this earth for approximately 137 days total. 

*" Do you think he knew it was my leg?" *

I don't know why it matters but it is very possible that he didn't know it was your leg. But we can't be sure because even though he is a baby they are smart has a high sense of smell so he could have known it was your leg. 

Puppies hump because they can. It is not sexual or dominant behaviors. It is usually a conflict behavior. The pup decides it wants to play and doesn't know how to engage the person or other dog and uses humping as an icebreaker. This usually can happen when they are a little over excited (happy) but can be when they also feel insecure. It is part of their natural instinct of behaviors. If you have alternate good behaviors that are solid when a pup does this just cue him to do one of those solid behavior you like and then reinforce for the good behaviors. It is better not to make a big deal out of the humping (marking it). But to offer alternatives to replace it. The more reward/reinforcement/encourgagement for the alternative behavior will help your pup choose to do the alternative behavior in place of the behavior you do not like and it will continue to fade away. Since they are young and don't always generalize well it may pop up in different contents from time to time until he is more mature.



I want to add to this....

If I remember correctly your leg was under the dog under a blanket. You moved your leg. This triggered excitement possibly a little prey drive which he didn't know how to deal with the excitement and it came out in the form of humping. This is just a guess. It triggered the chase and grab part of his natural instincts but instead of biting your leg he humped.


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

leximoo. said:


> That is why I posted this here, to get suggestions about how to manage his behavior, not my behavior. I know my behavior needs addressing, and I am the best person to address that.





> And to others with regards to my training and what I am teaching him: back off.





> I don't need training advice and lectures, especially from inexperienced chatterboxes. I was asking for thoughts and suggestions regarding the over-correction I gave him, we all make mistakes, and what people thought I could do to rectify any damage done. I already knew about instilling trust after an issue like this, but I wanted _additional_ opinions from what I _thought_ was a fairly decent community.


It is hard to convey intent in writing, so please know that I mean this with the utmost respect for you and am truly only trying to help. I can see that you love your guy very much and we all want the same thing here, a good bond between you and your boy.

This is a great community. I think maybe you need to take a breath and decide what you are asking. The quotes above are from 2 back to back posts. They seem to contradict each other with what you are asking for help. Help with your training? Managing his behavior is training, but then you tell us to back off. Help with how you dealt with the humping? For me at least I am a little confused exactly what you are asking for help with?

Also know that this community only has your and your dog's best interest at heart. We have many professional trainers and people who have worked with their dogs to get obedience championships involved in this thread. They are only concerned about some of the things you are doing (i.e. off leash near a road) because their years of experience tells them that a dog at that age with a really good recall isn't infallible. It is concern not judgement that they are saying these things. It could be that your dog is the exception, but that is a risk that I would not be willing to make.


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## leximoo (Aug 12, 2014)

Jennifer1 said:


> It is hard to convey intent in writing, so please know that I mean this with the utmost respect for you and am truly only trying to help. I can see that you love your guy very much and we all want the same thing here, a good bond between you and your boy.
> 
> This is a great community. I think maybe you need to take a breath and decide what you are asking. The quotes above are from 2 back to back posts. They seem to contradict each other with what you are asking for help. Help with your training? Managing his behavior is training, but then you tell us to back off. Help with how you dealt with the humping? For me at least I am a little confused exactly what you are asking for help with?
> 
> Also know that this community only has your and your dog's best interest at heart. We have many professional trainers and people who have worked with their dogs to get obedience championships involved in this thread. They are only concerned about some of the things you are doing (i.e. off leash near a road) because their years of experience tells them that a dog at that age with a really good recall isn't infallible. It is concern not judgement that they are saying these things. It could be that your dog is the exception, but that is a risk that I would not be willing to make.



Thanks Jennifer. Let me clarify some things.

Yes, my dog is an exception. I have brought up about 8 puppies of my own prior and worked with many more dogs, puppy and adult. I am willing to take the risk, because there is very little risk. He is different. I know best with regards to his safety and his understanding and knowledge, as I'm his owner and the one that works with him. That is for my judgement only, and I didn't request feedback for this, nor do I require any. The temperament of this dog, as the breeder told me herself, was 'very laid back', and that he would likely be an 'observer' from very early on. He is. He does play with other dogs, but not as OTT as other puppies do, it's just his temperament, and I'm using that to my advantage, training him these calm habits at an early age. He does enjoy running around freely (in response to Penny's mom), often, he enjoys himself, but he knows the time and place. On the roadside is not the place, but once I have told him he can play once we are in open space, he plays himself, with other dogs, and with me for as long as he wishes, without me controlling him. I do nose work with him when we are out in open space, he enjoys freedom and control. Of course his roadside walking is not proofed. But it is getting there and he's doing very well. I am well informed on the adolescent phase, and I know how I shall cope with it. No real need to speak about that any further.

When I say I do not need help training, I mean that I do not need any feedback regarding his off leash road walking, his recall, etc. I am asking for opinions on his humping, and how is best to correct this. People can feel free to 'back off' with the concerns regarding his off leash walking, etc. I am super responsible with it. It is also within the law in our area, and I have seen a significant number of others walking their dogs on our roads off leash. Never would I do this in any other area, or on our roads any time I felt that it was unsafe to do so. He is well socialised. While in the woods he will happily run up to other dogs to say hi, he does not pay attention to dogs on the other side of the road when they are trying to get to him even on leash. I need not defend myself with regards to this anymore, it isn't anybody else's concern.

I don't find humping acceptable behavior, regardless of reason. The dog as an intelligent animal is smart enough for the behavior to be modified. I'm wondering the best way to modify this to avoid the humping of curtains, toys, legs, other dogs. Let's take bite inhibition for example. We teach the puppy not to bite as it hurts. Now I'm trying to teach puppy not to hump as it is unacceptable the way mouthing is. How do I go about this?

From about 10 weeks he was humping curtains. Then he started on his dog bed, very frequently. Then he did it obsessively with particular toys. He started with larger dogs about two months ago, and now does it more frequently to larger dogs, getting snapped at and occasionally bitten in the process. Yet he continues.

Please put your own beliefs aside and, if you want to really assist, then I will gratefully welcome your suggestions as to how the behavior should be modified and proofed positively.


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## tine434 (Nov 24, 2013)

The best way to stop humping is catching it as soon as you see that arch to the back sotospeak or as soon as you feel they are about to, and distract. With Rem I would either distract or if he started I would go "Nuh uh!" Which was his que to stop. His version of "no". I wouldn't yell or do it in a mean way, just a standard nuh uh! And then do something else, like grab a toy and play. Eventually humping became less and less.

With that said, Rem comes from a long line of calm, laid back, lazy, no energy therapy dogs. His adolescent stage is totally different. Will he grow out of it back to how he was as a puppy? Probably so. But for now he is totally different than at 5 months old. No longer my perfect pup.

May I ask where the other 8 dogs you've raised are now? Just curious.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

"I don't find humping acceptable behavior, regardless of reason."

I don't think humping is an acceptable behavior either. IMO, I don't believe anyone here believes it is acceptable either. 

I do believe understanding the reason in each context is important so that you know what activity triggers it and when so you can either prevent it from happening before it happens or are ready to ask for an alternative behavior that will make it impossible for the pup to do the unacceptable behavior. Reinforcing the good behaviors you ask for to replace it will help your pup choose to make the better choice that you like building up on good habits. As in one of your posts you mentioned how you put a very high rate of reinforcement on behaviors you want and you have your pup making great choices in those situations do it here also. 

Sometimes even as an adult I too can lack some impulse control and will be a chatterbox. 

I didn't see you mention your pups name. What is his name please?


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## leximoo (Aug 12, 2014)

tine434 said:


> The best way to stop humping is catching it as soon as you see that arch to the back sotospeak or as soon as you feel they are about to, and distract. With Rem I would either distract or if he started I would go "Nuh uh!" Which was his que to stop. His version of "no". I wouldn't yell or do it in a mean way, just a standard nuh uh! And then do something else, like grab a toy and play. Eventually humping became less and less.
> 
> With that said, Rem comes from a long line of calm, laid back, lazy, no energy therapy dogs. His adolescent stage is totally different. Will he grow out of it back to how he was as a puppy? Probably so. But for now he is totally different than at 5 months old. No longer my perfect pup.
> 
> May I ask where the other 8 dogs you've raised are now? Just curious.


Thanks a lot

I know that puppy will go through the adolescent stage, and when he starts to show signs of distraction and non-compliance I will of course have him on leash to protect against any unwanted bolting or bad decision making.

1 was a family pet labrador when I was slightly younger who I took most responsibility for, who past away at the age 15 but had a lovely long life. 2 of them, smaller breeds, I raised for a family member as she bought them at the wrong time and her housing situation went upside down, leaving her in an apartment where she could not have dogs, until they were both 11 months and could be taken fully by her again once she found alternate housing. And the remaining 5 were pets of my own. 3 are still with me and the other two passed away some years ago now, one due to bone cancer and the other I believe simply old age.


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## leximoo (Aug 12, 2014)

solinvictus said:


> "I don't find humping acceptable behavior, regardless of reason."
> 
> I don't think humping is an acceptable behavior either. IMO, I don't believe anyone here believes it is acceptable either.
> 
> ...


Ok thanks, so for example I can make him sit or lay down when he beings to hump? Should he listen to this straight way in theory, what if he doesn't? He has 2 behaviors he tends to sometimes continue even if I tell him to stop or try and distract him, which are a) rolling in fox poop and b) humping toys or dogs.

His name by the way is Baxter


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## mybuddy (Mar 2, 2007)

Buddy is 12 and still humps when he is happy. His hump of choice is a pillow. He is free to choose whichever one he wants off the bed and can have at it. I don't see any harm in it whatsoever. Sometimes he will go for my leg, only at times when he is really happy. I don't particularly like him humping my leg, but would ever get mad at him for it. I will just tell him to go find his "humpy pillow" and he will. Just relax with your dog and enjoy him. The humpy behavior can be pretty funny when you look at it objectively


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

leximoo. said:


> And to others with regards to my training and what I am teaching him:
> 
> He is a bright boy, and I am very, very careful. I would not, ever put his life in jeopardy........
> 
> .....I don't need training advice and lectures, especially from inexperienced chatterboxes. I was asking for thoughts and suggestions regarding the over-correction I gave him, we all make mistakes, and what people thought I could do to rectify any damage done. I already knew about instilling trust after an issue like this, but I wanted _additional_ opinions from what I _thought_ was a fairly decent community...


#1 - This is a very decent community. Whether you realize it or not, your italicized comment is insulting and uncalled for. The people who have taken time out of their day to respond out of concern for the puppy and your relationship with him do not deserve this attitude. When you post on a public forum, you must be prepared to hear some responses you don't like. Be a grown up and control your temper.

#2 Name calling is immature and counter-productive. "Inexperienced Chatterboxes?" This is not how you win friends and influence people. The majority of people on this forum have more experience than you do in raising either puppies or human children and there is great similarity in the mindset behind being successful with both projects. Losing control of your temper with either a child or a dog is something we all have experience with at some time or another. While not everyone has raised their hand in anger, they have raised their voice or spoken in an ugly tone out of anger at some point in their lives. Learning to handle it the best way possible without causing damage to the living creature we have been entrusted with is a life skill. You may not appreciate all of the insight given here but, it's your job to weed through and be open to different approaches that work best for your situation. A life skill like self control (and make no mistake, that is what this is about) can be learned from a lot of different people, not just top notch dog trainers.

#3 - Telling us that you let a 4 month old puppy off leash in dangerous situations because your puppy is bright and that you would never endanger his life let's us all know that you're probably no older than your mid-twenties. You have allowed your good luck thus far to give you the impression that you know something that adults with 40, 50 or 60 years of both life and dog experience are too simple to have discovered or has only been discovered by you. You show up here, tell us you made a very human mistake that anyone who knows about children or puppies would let you know is about self control on your part and then inform us that you know more than we do when we express concern over what we see as a simple safety issue. If you don't see the irony in that, there may be little we can do to help you since you already know it all. Anyone with enough life experience can tell you that children and puppies have immature brains that are not 100% reliable in making good decisions in all situations. Life experience let's you know that's nothing is fool proof with puppies or children and expecting too much too soon out of anyone who isn't ready will catch up with you at some point.

My heart goes out to you that your childhood and relationship with your parents was so rocky that you have relationship issues with humans. I hope you will discuss what happened with your puppy with your therapist. Your statement that your dog should not be a "burden or an upset" concerns me a great deal. Anytime you open your heart to another living creature, 4 legged or 2 legged, you risk that they will upset you. When you are responsible for the health and safety and well-being of that creature there will be responsibilities on your part that will go beyond what is always comfortable or convenient for you, it may be burdensome at some point during the life of that dog. Expecting more than your dog is mentally mature enough to deliver is a sign to me that you are not just a strict trainer with high expectations, you are a person with unrealistic ideas about limitations and your own responsibilities to an innocent who relies on you to keep him safe and protected. A loving parent or leader provides safety even when it conflicts with the child's or dog's idea of fun or with your misguided idea that the most freedom possible is the standard of quality life. 

I truly wish you luck with your progress in therapy and with your puppy.


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

Quote: "From about 10 weeks he was humping curtains. Then he started on his dog bed, very frequently. Then he did it obsessively with particular toys. He started with larger dogs about two months ago, and now does it more frequently to larger dogs, getting snapped at and occasionally bitten in the process. Yet he continues."

You never encountered this before in your vast experience? How did you train your other dogs?

This sounds like frustration turned inward and/or boredom. And it sounds like he isn't socialized with other dogs. 

Please remember that while your puppy may DO the appropriate things, that alone does not indicate that he KNOWS anything. No dog can actually REASON that running to the left is into the path of a car that can injure and kill but running to the right is the safe way to go. NONE!


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## leximoo (Aug 12, 2014)

Penny's Mom said:


> Quote: "From about 10 weeks he was humping curtains. Then he started on his dog bed, very frequently. Then he did it obsessively with particular toys. He started with larger dogs about two months ago, and now does it more frequently to larger dogs, getting snapped at and occasionally bitten in the process. Yet he continues."
> 
> You never encountered this before in your vast experience? How did you train your other dogs?
> 
> Please remember that while your puppy may DO the appropriate things, that alone does not indicate that he KNOWS anything. No dog can actually REASON that running to the left is into the path of a car that can injure and kill but running to the right is the safe way to go. NONE!


yes, I have encountered humping with my other dogs. But I've never been humped by a dog of my own, and have never physically reprimanded one for humping either. I was shocked and literally like a reflex action hit him on his thigh. I trained the other dogs by making it less pleasant for them to hump using water guns, but I want to know if there are more effective ways of doing this as he humped my leg, which I don't appreciate so much.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

Welcome to you and Baxter. Great name. 

Since he isn't solid in sit or down in super highly exciting moments I would continue to work on them separately from this situation. Keep him slightly under threshold in exciting and challenging situations and continue to work them. You are on the right path.

Dogs do learn from failure but we really want them to learn from their successes. We build on those successes.

For the next week or two if he humps go ahead and use a lure to stop him. You are not teaching in these moments. Just call him away from the object and run to a hidden jar of cookies saying lets get a cookie or even into another room to put some distance between him and the object.

As soon as you know you got super super solid sit or down then you can ask for it. And if he does it have a huge party and give a jackpot reward. This will really make an impression in his little mind. After that you can give just normal rewards and every once in a while the huge reward.

For humping a toy if he won't do the behavior you ask for just put the toy away for awhile. The problem with saying no etc is you are actually giving him attention for his inappropriate activity. This is actually reinforcement even if it isn't as nice as a yes or a treat. You want to stop the humping behavior without bringing attention to it. If he is humping you don't acknowledge him just get up or move to another area where he cannot engage in that activity. Until you know he will listen to that sit or down cue.

Even after he will listen to the sit or down cue and he does and you reward him sometimes they will just go back to doing what they have done so it is important if you see that happening to continue to engage him long enough in other good behaviors until he forgets how much fun he was having doing that activity. 

Many people do use aversives and it may even stop the behaviors sooner but it is a chance that you will cause problems with your relationship. It is better to take a little time to work through this than to risk problems later down the road. Because this is a natural instinctive activity sometimes it takes a little time for them to realize that the choices you like and reinforce are actually more fun. 

Unfortunately, humping is self reinforcing so you have to use things that are more valuable than that self reinforcement. 

Young pups need a lot of routine, structure and rules and exercise in constructive ways so you are on the right track.

Lots of times when they are making choices we don't like they just haven't had enough good habits build in that exact context and just don't know what to do with themselves.

Lots of training is really good but for me I like to do it in short spurts so they have some time to think about all they have done. Many young pups need up to 18 hours of sleep a day so their bodies can actually take the time to grow. Each pup is different though. 

Again since this activity is instinctive it is really important to really reinforce good behaviors, and to prevent it from happening.

If Baxter is humping another dog I would work on calling him away from that play. (recall work) if he doesn't stop and come at this point I would just gently remove him from his friend and put more value in your recall before asking for that again. 

The more good habits he has the less he will be unsure and use this as a default behavior.


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

Mr. Darcy's humping went away when he finished teething. Your puppy is still growing and developing. He's really just an infant. His humping may be something he does to comfort himself because he's in pain from teething. It is probably no more than thumb sucking would be for a human. As with all puppies, things can turn into games and excitement quickly. Like moving your leg under him was exciting and he started to play. No big deal.


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## leximoo (Aug 12, 2014)

solinvictus said:


> Welcome to you and Baxter. Great name.
> 
> Since he isn't solid in sit or down in super highly exciting moments I would continue to work on them separately from this situation. Keep him slightly under threshold in exciting and challenging situations and continue to work them. You are on the right path.
> 
> ...


Thanks thats really helpful.  So I take from your explanation that in time he will decide to do the better habit rather than the humping? Does that mean he will hump less overall on his own, or just get better at stopping when asked to do something else?

The reason I'm asking these questions here is because Ive used a lot of aversive techniques in the past, and though they have worked I find that it is easy to take it too far (as youve seen in my first post) when you are particularly frustrated. So really Im just looking for more positive ways of getting him to put his energy into more constructive behaviors.


By the way - Today, he seems pretty much his normal self. He is just as good on walks in the woods and doesn't seem hesitant with recall, or my touch etc. Our bond was very strong before this incident last night besides, but do you think he could have taken anything away from this in terms of being more wary of me and is there particular training or communication I can give to reinforce a positive bond between me and Baxter?


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## leximoo (Aug 12, 2014)

Penny's Mom said:


> Mr. Darcy's humping went away when he finished teething. Your puppy is still growing and developing. He's really just an infant. His humping may be something he does to comfort himself because he's in pain from teething. It is probably no more than thumb sucking would be for a human. As with all puppies, things can turn into games and excitement quickly. Like moving your leg under him was exciting and he started to play. No big deal.


Sure, it makes a lot of sense and I get it now. I think that he likely thought it was play and became excited. I see that *now*. But in the moment last night I was obviously tired with clouded judgement and made a bad decision physically reprimanding him for something he didn't mean in the way I thought he had. Granted, I do feel very bad about it. I continued to repeat 'no' a few times after he had stopped and he avoided eye contact and jumped off the bed and turned round to look at me once he was off. Later I invited him onto the bed again to which he was happy to come up.

What do you think he could have taken away from this situation, if anything? Would it be more likely that he was entirely confused by my actions or could he have understood I was reprimanding him for something? I guess I feel even worse if he didn't know it was my leg.


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

I think they are sponges and soaked up everything...it's how they survive. It's how they learn their place at the "kill". By reading body language, they learn which individuals to be warying of and steer clear of.

That said, if this is the only aversive thing you've done, then probably it won't make a lasting impression on him. His mind was on something else at the time which lessened the emotional impact.

They are sensitive and sponges but also pretty resilient. Good for you to want to learn new techniques to handle problems more effectively!


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## thegoldenjoyride (Dec 18, 2005)

leximoo said:


> Ok thanks, so for example I can make him sit or lay down when he beings to hump?


For my girl if there's an undesirable behaviour that I sense is about to happen then I redirect her to come/watch me/sit/down/etc and then she gets praised for these desired behaviours...


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

So I take from your explanation that in time he will decide to do the better habit rather than the humping?

Only if you present a better reinforcement for the good behavior.

We are messing around with their brain chemicals.

Every time they are reinforced with something really fun/exciting/yummy anyone of them (what they value not what we think is good) we are building a rush of pleasurable chemicals in their brains. If we put a ton or reinforcement behind these good behaviors then they will eventually choose them instead of the behaviors we do not like.

Since humping also brings those pleasurable chemicals through the brain we want to prevent it with management as much as possible so the idea of humping or any other behavior that is strongly instinctive will fade. 

I only ask you not to ask for the sit or down or recall etc if you think Baxter will blow you off. So it is just a short duration immediate way to stop him from doing it. Using the actual lure is considered an emergency at that moment. Once you have the sit and down in any excitable situation you will use them and those are your teaching moments. So you want to get them really solid really fast but you should be able to do so as you have said he good at them now. 

Using me as an example.

I like clean dishes. I hate to do dishes. My husband praises me for doing the dishes. ahem so what. it is a form of payment but really isn't that valuable to me. But if he said every time you do the dishes you can take the dogs to training school and play and work them. I would never have any dirty dishes in the sink and would be over the moon happy because I would be spending tons of time with my dogs. Which is more powerful to me? Which one will make me want to do the dishes? over time I will start feeling okay about doing them. My brain chemicals will start making me happy to actually do the dishes. With lots of reinforcement in the beginning my husband can then change the reinforcement level of every 3rd day every 2nd day every week if I do the dishes I can go and play/train the dogs. Slowly extending the time between reinforcements but the brain chemicals will continue to work each time I do the dishes.

It works. The pup/dog is happy/feels good you feel good and over time he will just want to do the behaviors that have been rewarded. Baxter will never be perfect he may have slip ups here and there just like we do as humans but it really works and is really powerful.

It also builds up your relationship because good and fun things happen because of you until the association isn't to the cookie or toy but those brain chemicals flow just because he is with you.


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

^^^^^^she's right!


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## Willsmum (Aug 12, 2014)

From the sounds of it you enjoy training, and if you're looking for a fun and effective way to train I'd recommend trying clicker training. 

And example of how this might work: he decides to hump, you grit your teeth, grab a treat and lure him off your leg. When his fore paws hit the floor, click and treat. By this point you would have "charged" the clicker so he sees it as a "good job!" noise, so makes the connection between paws and the floor and you being pleased. 

Karen Pryor has written a great deal about clicker training, google her and you'll find some fantastic ideas for using a clicker in your training. 

I'd also suggest books by behaviourist Sarah Whitehead. One in particular is "Gentle hands off dog training," where she discusses methods and theories of training using nothing but positive reinforcement. 

Some people say positive only training doesn't show dogs what NOT to do,but done properly there's no need to ever reprimand. Behaviour can be shaped using purely positive methods, which is great if you want to build a solid and trusting relationship with your dog. You just need to sometimes be extra patient and inventive, but that's half the fun. 

Just a little note, I'm new around here and have my first golden, but also four cavaliers, previously a couple of collies, and experience with practical training. I also think everyone makes mistakes, but it's never impossible to make something good happen I'm the future. Maybe trying something like clicker training will help improve your bond with your dog, it certainly did mine. In fact, at times it's leant a clarity to our communication that almost breaches the language barrier.


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## solinvictus (Oct 23, 2008)

"What do you think he could have taken away from this situation, if anything?"

Baxter sounds like a very solid confident little guy. You said he wasn't hand shy of you today. That today has been pretty normal for him. Where I would watch to see if it had any impression or not would be tonight in the bedroom or bed. I do believe he has put it in his memory bank that Mom was unpredictable/crazy once. If it never happens again it will fade away from his memory bank. If he is a little unsure tonight at bedtime or right after then I would make bed time a little more fun but not to much or you will get him to excited to sleep. Just make bedtime a positive quiet fun experience and you should be fine.

If Baxter was an insecure or timid dog it might have caused you more problems in your total relationship. 

Most puppies are in the normal range and can handle a few mistakes from us and just move on. The immediate problem is if a pup is in a fear period or is on the insecure timid side of the spectrum then it might really be harmful.

That being said think of their little brains as a scale.

Every good association on one side and every bad association on the other side of the scale. 
Every day we are adding to both sides of the scale. We want to be sure that we are weighing that good association side down heavily to build our relationship.

We are also in competition with the pups surrounding enviroment. The more fun that happens in the enviroment that isn't associated with us makes us have to work a little harder for our dogs to choose us over them. And the ultimate is for them to choose us. To want to be and do things with us.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

leximoo said:


> Sure, it makes a lot of sense and I get it now. I think that he likely thought it was play and became excited. I see that *now*. But in the moment last night I was obviously tired with clouded judgement and made a bad decision physically reprimanding him for something he didn't mean in the way I thought he had. Granted, I do feel very bad about it. I continued to repeat 'no' a few times after he had stopped and he avoided eye contact and jumped off the bed and turned round to look at me once he was off. Later I invited him onto the bed again to which he was happy to come up.
> 
> What do you think he could have taken away from this situation, if anything? Would it be more likely that he was entirely confused by my actions or could he have understood I was reprimanding him for something? I guess I feel even worse if he didn't know it was my leg.


Are you under the impression his actions were sexually oriented toward you? They were not.

He was entirely confused by your actions, he only knew you were not happy with "something" but could not know what that was. I don't believe he "knew" it was your leg, only that something moved and looked fun. He did not have the thought process, "that's her leg I'm going to hump it." 

Cats will play with your foot if you move it under the covers. They don't know it's your foot, only that it's a moving object to play with. Same concept.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

nolefan said:


> #1 - This is a very decent community. Whether you realize it or not, your italicized comment is insulting and uncalled for. The people who have taken time out of their day to respond out of concern for the puppy and your relationship with him do not deserve this attitude. When you post on a public forum, you must be prepared to hear some responses you don't like. Be a grown up and control your temper.
> 
> #2 Name calling is immature and counter-productive. "Inexperienced Chatterboxes?" This is not how you win friends and influence people. The majority of people on this forum have more experience than you do in raising either puppies or human children and there is great similarity in the mindset behind being successful with both projects. Losing control of your temper with either a child or a dog is something we all have experience with at some time or another. While not everyone has raised their hand in anger, they have raised their voice or spoken in an ugly tone out of anger at some point in their lives. Learning to handle it the best way possible without causing damage to the living creature we have been entrusted with is a life skill. You may not appreciate all of the insight given here but, it's your job to weed through and be open to different approaches that work best for your situation. A life skill like self control (and make no mistake, that is what this is about) can be learned from a lot of different people, not just top notch dog trainers.
> 
> ...


What she said.


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

^^^^^^Ditto^^^^^^


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## Rkaymay (May 12, 2014)

I doubt your pup is wary of you. He does not sound like a soft, sensitive pup, so my guess is it hardly made an impact on him. I would quit worrying about it. You're probably stressing him out and he doesn't know why.

As for the humping... My guess is he will grow out of it. But in the meantime, when he begins to hump I would tell him "no", lure him off, put him in a sit, THEN give him another outlet for his energy and excitement - tug, fetch, etc. Teach him a different behavior for when he's excited, so eventually when he's excited, he'll choose to play a game instead of hump. Similar to bite inhibition, puppies bite when they're excited, so you teach them to play with a toy instead of bite. Teach him to play tug instead of hump.

And I agree that he is very, very young. Train him as you will, but please be prepared for personality changes as he hits adolescence. Otherwise, you may find yourself hitting him in frustration again. Just warning you so that you are prepared ahead of time.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

At one of the behavior meetings I went to, the behaviorist said dogs hump when they do not know what else to do.. it is not sexual or dominance behavior.


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## leximoo (Aug 12, 2014)

Thanks everyone for the suggestions.

I feel even worse now.  I just took Baxter on a walk, and it was going alright.

But he got down on the floor and rolled in fox poop, something I have been trying to teach him 'out' of, aversively. I had to shout 'no' to him, he then looked at me and after a second carried on rolling again, so I shouted 'no' even louder, and he stopped. Then i told him to 'stand' and then we did some training practise to distract him from the poop rolling. But I feel so bad I had to tell him off and I feel like I can't even tell him what not to do now. Am I going about this all wrong ?


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## Micheal (Jun 2, 2014)

Sally's Mom said:


> At one of the behavior meetings I went to, the behaviorist said dogs hump when they do not know what else to do.. it is not sexual or dominance behavior.


heh, kind of like people.


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## Melfice (Aug 4, 2012)

leximoo said:


> Thanks everyone for the suggestions.
> 
> I feel even worse now.  I just took Baxter on a walk, and it was going alright.
> 
> But he got down on the floor and rolled in fox poop, something I have been trying to teach him 'out' of, aversively. I had to shout 'no' to him, he then looked at me and after a second carried on rolling again, so I shouted 'no' even louder, and he stopped. Then i told him to 'stand' and then we did some training practise to distract him from the poop rolling. But I feel so bad I had to tell him off and I feel like I can't even tell him what not to do now. Am I going about this all wrong ?


Hmm you make it sound like you have never had a dog before. These type of things are going to happen, and dogs won't always listen (the first, second and even third time). You can teach him "leave it" and reward once he obeys. 

I always like to take treats on walks, and do on-the-spot training sessions for behaviors I don't want my pups to do (which you seem to be doing on your walks)

My golden Rusty has his CGC title, and has been trained since I got him. But he still tries to get away with things tho. Its in their nature just like humans try to get away with stuff too.


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## Tayla's Mom (Apr 20, 2012)

In my opinion, yes you are. He isn't deaf so shouting isn't making it any better. You just become the crazy lady who now shouts and hits. I know where from I speak because Tayla was a problem for day one and we did many things wrong. Teach leave it. Leave it for food dropped on the floor, for shoes, etc. Leave it inside and out. Believe me Baxter does not understand half of what you think he does at his age. He will, if you don't get control of yourself, understand you to be someone he fears. We work on leave it with our newest rescue Lily. Lily has a worse habit than humping. She is a poop eater. We started with food dropped on the floor and she leaves it. We give her a treat and praise. We are getting about 50/50 in telling her to leave the poop. When she does we give her a huge party. Clapping, treats, petting the whole 9 yards. When she doesn't and eats it, oh well. We don't yell at her. It just makes her eat it faster. Just tells me I have a ways to go yet. Your puppy is so young. Don't be the scary lady that he may obey just because he is afraid. Be the happy person that sets him up for success. Don't be harsh, ever.


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## Anon-2130948gsoni (Apr 12, 2014)

Something I constantly get after my husband about (and to be honest, myself as well at times) is that "NO" isn't enough information. No, what? No, come? No, leave it? No, drop it?

All no tells him is that you're annoyed. It doesn't tell him what to do about it. It doesn't even tell him what "it" is. To him, as a dog, he just found this delightfully aromatic substance and he will now roll in it to disguise his scent, like any good predator would do, and you, as his leader, will no doubt be on board with this intelligent behavior. Instead, you're yelling something and seem quite upset.

Terribly confusing for him, yes?

I'm assuming he was off leash so you couldn't enforce a "leave it" command, or whatever you use for that? Would "come" have worked in that situation? 

Because you know, fox poop is some really, really awesome poop.


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## leximoo (Aug 12, 2014)

Thanks guys.
@Melfice: Though I have had a fair number of dogs before, I have always used aversive techniques like yelling and even finger jabbing to teach the word 'No', get them to stop rolling in fox poop, and once I taught 'No' I would use it if they ignored the recall or other commands as they got older. The reason I'm asking so many questions now is because I want to use more positive techniques. I think that aversive techniques will probably work faster, and are much easier for skilled trainers, but I want to avoid having to put my hands on my pup and any other of my dogs (now or future, possibly).


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## Tayla's Mom (Apr 20, 2012)

My dogs are always on leash when walking and I can say it has saved us many times. I watch for that indicator. With both of mine it's the sniffing and then the head starts to roll down and it looks like they are ready to do a summersault and one leave it and yes, a leash tug to move them away. It's the watching for the first sign so you can be quick and proactive that helps.


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## leximoo (Aug 12, 2014)

The thing is, he knows leave it, but not for fox poop.

Baxter is a poop eater too. As a very young puppy he would eat horse poop like NO TOMRROW, gulping down so much that he vomited routinely after he had eaten it. Now the biggest issue is human poop. We live in this area where there are no toilets along our river trail, and I discover sometimes that humans poop behind bushes and leave wipes with poop on, amongst their waste. Baxter goes and eats this. Nothing works for human poop. No leave it, no come, no nothing.

With fox poop rolling it is the same problem. I can't call him to me, he just gets up, looks at me, and falls back down to roll again. He can leave horse poop so well, he now goes near it, smells it, hesitates, but 90% of the time doesnt go to eat it, he just looks at me, and I give him a piece of cooked meat and its all great.

The thing is that I've always used physically aversive techniques to stop these behaviours before. Harsh leash jerks, finger jabs and finger claw simulations to get them to stop the behavior. That is how I have always taught 'No', and it always worked after about 3 or 4 repeats. I would never HIT the dog, but obviously in my upset and slight frustration yesterday that is what I did and now I am wanting to change my general training style too.

I guess I want to find a way which is less intimidating to him. I was always taught that it was the only way to proof the dog using aversive techniques


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## EddieWouldGo (Mar 25, 2014)

Aleksandrina said:


> Off topic - I am happy for you that Max was able to sleep in your bed with no accidents. I decided to give this a try. I just attempted to have Theo in the bed (for less than 10 minutes.)
> 
> And guess what? He peed on our bed... I took him off of it to clean it up. And he managed to poop in the corridor in the meantime. :doh:
> 
> ...


Different strokes for different folks... I suppose we all do things differently, what works for some doesn't work for others. And what some folks deem unsafe or harmful others have no problem with. Is that a picture of Theo on your lap? If so, there's a perfect example of something I would have never allowed for Eddie to do... When Eddie was Theo's age, anytime he went somewhere in my car, he'd be in his crate. Now, at 9 months, he wears a harness. I realize this may be off topic, I'm just mentioning this as an example of how differently we all raise our dogs...


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## Willsmum (Aug 12, 2014)

leximoo said:


> Thanks everyone for the suggestions.
> 
> I feel even worse now.  I just took Baxter on a walk, and it was going alright.
> 
> But he got down on the floor and rolled in fox poop, something I have been trying to teach him 'out' of, aversively. I had to shout 'no' to him, he then looked at me and after a second carried on rolling again, so I shouted 'no' even louder, and he stopped. Then i told him to 'stand' and then we did some training practise to distract him from the poop rolling. But I feel so bad I had to tell him off and I feel like I can't even tell him what not to do now. Am I going about this all wrong ?


Here's how you could have dealt with it using positive reinforcement: 
He rolls in poo. You reach into your treat bag and grab a great high value treat. Stick the treat near his nose and lure him away. Once he's clear of poo, click and treat.

Another thing that would work here is a REALLY solid recall. Another book I thought of was Pippa Mattison's Total Recall. A good recall can essentially become the alternative to no, but it's completely positive. Dog doing something you don't like? "Come here!" Followed up with rewards and praise. You have to be aware of him going to do something you don't want, and interrupt him on his way. Sometimes he'll manage to get into something you don't want anyway but at least you'll be able to get him out of it fast. So next time he sees fox poo, if you notice before he's diving in head first into the doggy alternative of a chocolate bath, distract, reward and keep going.


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

leximoo said:


> The thing is, he knows leave it, but not for fox poop.
> 
> Baxter is a poop eater too. A*s a very young puppy* he would eat horse poop like NO TOMRROW, gulping down so much that he vomited routinely after he had eaten it. Now the biggest issue is human poop. We live in this area where there are no toilets along our river trail, and I discover sometimes that humans poop behind bushes and leave wipes with poop on, amongst their waste. Baxter goes and eats this. Nothing works for human poop. No leave it, no come, no nothing.
> 
> ...


He's STILL a very young puppy. I'm far from an expert but I've read this whole thread since it started and it seems to me that part of the problem is that you're not acknowledging how very young he is. He doesn't understand what you want - and you're hell bent on keeping him off leash so you're going to have a problem with getting him away from anything that he really really wants - like fox poo. Maybe you should carry some really super tasty treats to lure him away from the super tasty fox poo - but don't expect that the word he's hearing over and over means the same thing to him that it means to you. He doesn't know what NO means. He doesn't speak your language. 

I don't mean to sound harsh, but you've got to stop insisting that this baby brain, no matter how smart he may be, *knows* things that he can't possibly have completely learned in the few months he's been on this earth.


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## Tayla's Mom (Apr 20, 2012)

leximoo said:


> The thing is, he knows leave it, but not for fox poop.
> 
> Baxter is a poop eater too. As a very young puppy he would eat horse poop like NO TOMRROW, gulping down so much that he vomited routinely after he had eaten it. Now the biggest issue is human poop. We live in this area where there are no toilets along our river trail, and I discover sometimes that humans poop behind bushes and leave wipes with poop on, amongst their waste. Baxter goes and eats this. Nothing works for human poop. No leave it, no come, no nothing.
> 
> ...


I disagree. He doesn't know leave it. You think he does, but he doesn't. You just don't have a meeting of the minds. Just like many things dogs don't generalize well. One may do well with sit in the house, but not in the yard. He always sits at home people say, but you aren't at home and he doesn't know sit well enough to do it in other situation. Baxter doesn't know leave it well enough and hasn't known it long enough to apply it to situations he finds irresistible. Nothing against him or your training. HE JUST IS TOO YOUNG YET.

From reading this I would say you must be a follower of Caesar Milan. Your techniques, while they may work on some level are outdated. Open yourself up to new methods and you will find things can work just as well.

Also, where do you live that people are pooping outside? There are no bathrooms along a trail. OMG just wait until you get home or go before you leave home. Humans pooping outside is unacceptable except in the most rare situations.


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## Willsmum (Aug 12, 2014)

EddieWouldGo said:


> Different strokes for different folks...


I'm theorising that because my pups have always been on the bed that they've made the connection between bed and sleeping place, and they don't want to pee where they sleep. In Alek's case, the experience is new and exciting, certainly not a no pee here sleepy place! 

Something I've come to appreciate the more time I spend with owners and trainers is that any behaviour can be an acceptable behaviour, as long as it's acceptable to the individual (and socially, I fuss, depending on what it is!). I let my dogs on the sofa, the bed, upstairs etc, I know some people who say dogs belong on the floor. Or even not in the house. Strange how much diversity humans have in their attitudes of what's ok as far as their pets are concerned.

As long as the pets are happy I guess most things are ok. I probably could have said all of this with "I agree." ....


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## Rkaymay (May 12, 2014)

leximoo said:


> The thing is, he knows leave it, but not for fox poop.
> 
> Baxter is a poop eater too. As a very young puppy he would eat horse poop like NO TOMRROW, gulping down so much that he vomited routinely after he had eaten it. Now the biggest issue is human poop. We live in this area where there are no toilets along our river trail, and I discover sometimes that humans poop behind bushes and leave wipes with poop on, amongst their waste. Baxter goes and eats this. Nothing works for human poop. No leave it, no come, no nothing.
> 
> ...


See, if he KNEW "leave it", he would apply it to all situations. "Leave it" means "forget this amazing thing you really really want". He will KNOW leave it when he can apply it in all situations - which won't happen for many, many more months. I am VERY happy that you want to learn new positive techniques, but you also have to accept that positive techniques that teach respect may actually take longer to "work" than those negative ones that teach fear. Building a wonderful relationship with your dog takes more work and more patience than teaching him to fear you. You really have to ask yourself - can you handle his mistakes (and yours - because you will mess up - it's life) without losing your temper and hitting and/or screaming?


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## leximoo (Aug 12, 2014)

Tayla's Mom said:


> I disagree. He doesn't know leave it. You think he does, but he doesn't. You just don't have a meeting of the minds. Just like many things dogs don't generalize well. One may do well with sit in the house, but not in the yard. He always sits at home people say, but you aren't at home and he doesn't know sit well enough to do it in other situation. Baxter doesn't know leave it well enough and hasn't known it long enough to apply it to situations he finds irresistible. Nothing against him or your training. HE JUST IS TOO YOUNG YET.
> 
> From reading this I would say you must be a follower of Caesar Milan. Your techniques, while they may work on some level are outdated. Open yourself up to new methods and you will find things can work just as well.
> 
> Also, where do you live that people are pooping outside? There are no bathrooms along a trail. OMG just wait until you get home or go before you leave home. Humans pooping outside is unacceptable except in the most rare situations.


Wait... You want to tell me that my 4.5 month puppy DOESN'T know leave it? As a 13 week old, in the nature walk, he would eat horse poop like there was no tomorrow. And now, at 4.5 months, after a lot of training, every day, he will happily walk OVER it, PAST it, ROUND it, and if he slips up one walk, I will tell him to leave it, and he immediately does. Your dog has a poop eating problem, and you keep her on a leash and tug her when she doesn't respond, not to mention she only has a 50/50 response, and you want to tell me that MY puppy doesn't know leave it?

Yes, he will eat human poop, and yes he will roll in fox poop. But you claim Lily is getting 'better' at leave it, even though her response is 50/50, and you keep her on a leash to correct her if she slips up, yet my 4.5 month puppy knows leave it very, very solidly inside the house, with food outside the house, and with horse poop. Unbelievable. 

The trainer in his dog training class said he was the smartest puppy out of the entire group, though he was the youngest and about half the age of all the others.

You are one arrogant old cow love, I have to say.

No, my puppy doesn't know leave it with every situation. But don't even begin to claim you are doing a better job with your Lily. Oh god.


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## leximoo (Aug 12, 2014)

It seems like a lot of you just can't accept how smart and well trained my puppy is...

It seems like I've done a much better job than any of you could ever, I'm going to stop listening to your unhelpful advice, and deal with this myself. Yes, I hit the puppy. Yes, it was wrong. But no, I did not deserve to be bashed and called an abuser left right and center, and don't for one minute try and tell me that my puppy isn't trained well enough to walk off leash on roadside etc etc because you are too fearful to try it yourself as you lack the confidence and skill to train your dogs right.

Yes, Baxter is lying right on top of me in bed right now. Yes, his recall was perfect in the park today. Yes, he walked on roadside off leash today, and there were countless dogs, barking, trying to get at him, poop on the floor, and cars every so often, and NO he did not bolt, and NO he never well, because my goal is to train him immaculately and so far, the trainers he has seen think both him and I are doing an astounding job of it for a puppy so young. He does not bolt after foxes, rabbits, squirrels, flying leaves, people, dogs, cats, horses, cars, cycles, or anything. And what's more... he won't. Because he is being trained by somebody who actually spends a **** time with her dog, rather than crating him all day and allowing him to eat poop on walks. Get stuffed. Seems it wasn't so bad after all, you rude critters.

Good day.


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## Anon-2130948gsoni (Apr 12, 2014)

You ask for help and advice. Then when people offer it, you either reject it, explain why it won't work, or insult them, and then you come back and ask for help again.

I'm beginning to understand how your dog feels every time you yell "NO."

I'll be in my crate until further notice.


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## EddieWouldGo (Mar 25, 2014)

Willsmum said:


> I'm theorising that because my pups have always been on the bed that they've made the connection between bed and sleeping place, and they don't want to pee where they sleep. In Alek's case, the experience is new and exciting, certainly not a no pee here sleepy place!
> 
> Something I've come to appreciate the more time I spend with owners and trainers is that any behaviour can be an acceptable behaviour, as long as it's acceptable to the individual (and socially, I fuss, depending on what it is!). I let my dogs on the sofa, the bed, upstairs etc, I know some people who say dogs belong on the floor. Or even not in the house. Strange how much diversity humans have in their attitudes of what's ok as far as their pets are concerned.
> 
> As long as the pets are happy I guess most things are ok. I probably could have said all of this with "I agree." ....


Hi Willsmum, 
"I agree"  
It all depends... I was one of those people who used to think "dogs belong on the floor" as you say. When Eddie was 4 months, he slept in his crate every night, I think he was around 6 months when I left him out one evening to see how he'd respond. He didn't know what to do with himself, and peed all over the bedroom carpet... LOL! As he's gotten older, he has become better at 'holding it' thru the night until he is let out in the morning... He has gone from sleeping in his crate EVERY night, to having the door ajar, to not sleeping in the crate at all...in fact the crate is now in our garage, not being used ever! He likes to start off on our bed, but it is WAY too hot for him after a while, so he jumps off and sleeps on the cool marble in front of our fire place in our bedroom. It's the perfect "arrangement" for us... we get to cuddle for a while, then get our bed to ourselves...


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## leximoo (Aug 12, 2014)

Noreaster said:


> You ask for help and advice. Then when people offer it, you either reject it, explain why it won't work, or insult them, and then you come back and ask for help again.
> 
> I'm beginning to understand how your dog feels every time you yell "NO."
> 
> I'll be in my crate until further notice.


I asked questions regarding the humping behavior, what to do about it, and whether he may have thought it was my leg. I gave background regarding how I am training him to show that I am not abusing him, but love him and devote all of my day to having fun with him and giving him company. You LOT have a bad habit of judging people far too quickly. I never asked for any help with regards to your jealous opinions regarding how I walk and train him in general.

Granted, I have more experience than most of you, and I have a much better behaved and well trained puppy than you could ever have wished for, which evidently leads to such jealousy you lot can't handle it.


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## Rob's GRs (Feb 25, 2007)

this thread is being closed.


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