# Back Yard Breeder Catch 22 Dilemma



## IamNotaRobot (Jan 21, 2016)

I will start this post by admitting my sin. We are Golden Retriever hobby breeders, but I think most on this site would call us “backyard breeders”. This post is not an attempt to defend ourselves and definitely not backyard breeders. It is an honest plea to help us fill in the gap, and work on a serious issue. 

I will share our story in a separate post but wanted this one to be focused on the issue.
We do not have show dogs, we do not breed show dogs. Our lineage is through working lines, and pets. It is not a titled lineage. We live in an area where the closest GRCA club is 4 hours away and participation is not feasible. We are not perfect and our dogs are not perfect, we don’t pretend to be. We are honest people, who love our dogs and find purpose and value in raising them. But we also work jobs, have kids, and live normal lives. We do not have time to live the show dog life, and we prefer our dogs without haircuts and hair spray. We have been to many of the shows, events, and clinics, and yes our dogs have smaller bones, and shorter/less hair, and red/dark golden coats, but for weight, height, stature and build, and temperament, from our un-educated perspective, our dogs meet the breed standard. We love the breed and are always trying to learn more about them and how to improve our practices as owners and breeders. We understand the value of the shows, of competition, of title, and of the clubs. We wish we could participate. But that is the barrier that causes the issue at hand. Since we are not able to participate, and our dogs do not have titles, we are apparently terrible people who everyone casts labels on and immediately judges us and our dogs as substandard. 
If we wanted a show dog, we could easily buy one and show it, but we DO NOT. We love our lineage, our story, and our dogs, and want to keep that around and pass it down, and I know this is the same story for those who have worked so hard to raise show dogs. 

We raise family pets because the Golden Retriever is the most perfect family companion, and there are so many families out there just like ours who just want a golden family member, not a show dog, and all they care about is health and temperament, and that they represent a golden. Which leads me to the catch 22 dilemma. Even though we are not members, we follow the GRCA code of ethics. We have done all the genetic tests and gotten all the clearances, but it is the first generation in our line with these. We would like to keep another female puppy from our next litter since we are about to fix our last intact female after that litter. We want to use a Sire who has a good lineage of clearances and health, and that has all the genetic testing done. We have contacted almost everyone we can find in our area who has a Sire with what we are looking for, and the second they find out we are not GRCA members and do not show our dogs, the conversation ends. They are usually very nice (_*usually*_), but are not willing to even discuss the possibility of us using their Sire to parent a litter with our Dam. We completely understand it and appreciate everyone’s dedication to the breed. If we were asked to have our Sire parent another litter, we would go through an arduous process before approving the mating.

We are going to continue to breed golden retrievers and would love to work with those who are doing everything they can to perfect the breed, but they are unwilling to work with us. That leaves us with the only option of using another Sire who does not have the testing or lineage that we would want. We have tried to find good people and help them get all the clearances for their sires, but most do not want to or care to because the GRCA has created a submarket for backyard breeders by their member's exclusive practices. Now even if we did find someone willing to start all the testing and clearances, the time required to do so may mean that the timing would not work for our Dam. 

I hope you can see the problem statement. There are people out there who love the golden retriever, are committed to the dog as a family companion, but do not want to live the show dog lifestyle. But because of the lack of accessibility to Sires of merit, are forced to source a sire from a “backyard breeder”. Thus, the never-ending cycle of show dogs vs. companion dogs. My fear is that someday the two will be viewed as separate breeds. If the GRCA was more focused on educating those who want to responsibly breed dogs, but not show them, and make it okay for members to talk with breeders who do not show their dogs, I believe we would have a much more robust, diverse, and healthy breed. A rising tide raises all ships, so please help me answer how can someone dedicated to the breed, but unable to live the show dog lifestyle, be a participant in the legacy and lineage of the Golden Retriever?


----------



## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

IamNotaRobot said:


> I will start this post by admitting my sin. We are Golden Retriever hobby breeders, but I think most on this site would call us “backyard breeders”. This post is not an attempt to defend ourselves and definitely not backyard breeders. It is an honest plea to help us fill in the gap, and work on a serious issue.
> 
> I will share our story in a separate post but wanted this one to be focused on the issue.
> We do not have show dogs, we do not breed show dogs. Our lineage is through working lines, and pets. It is not a titled lineage. We live in an area where the closest GRCA club is 4 hours away and participation is not feasible. We are not perfect and our dogs are not perfect, we don’t pretend to be. We are honest people, who love our dogs and find purpose and value in raising them. But we also work jobs, have kids, and live normal lives. We do not have time to live the show dog life, and we prefer our dogs without haircuts and hair spray. We have been to many of the shows, events, and clinics, and yes our dogs have smaller bones, and shorter/less hair, and red/dark golden coats, but for weight, height, stature and build, and temperament, from our un-educated perspective, our dogs meet the breed standard. We love the breed and are always trying to learn more about them and how to improve our practices as owners and breeders. We understand the value of the shows, of competition, of title, and of the clubs. We wish we could participate. But that is the barrier that causes the issue at hand. Since we are not able to participate, and our dogs do not have titles, we are apparently terrible people who everyone casts labels on and immediately judges us and our dogs as substandard.
> ...


The first thing is is that every breeding of golden retrievers will usually be a large majority of the pups will be family dogs and that all breeding should be done with the same code of ethics. 

The issue is you want to breed Golden's and want to use other breeder's dogs who spends 10s of thousands of dollars showing and titling their dogs and want them to sure dogs for people when don't do anything with their dogs. I'm not being judgemental or condescending but the reason why those breeder's are not keen or open to studding their dogs to you or similar people is that there feel you're shortcutting and riding off their hard work and for some, decades worth of work. 

I understand where you are coming from and found the required testing but the fact that you have so much going on and can6 show or title your dogs in anything at all to me means you'll never get to the point you're looking to get to with your breeding program. The other thing is what do you charge for you puppies (don't have to answer, retorical question)? If your trying to charge $2k+ for puppies, that is the starting rate for pups with titled parents and generations of verifiable health clearances. 

The other point is top show breeder's do a TON of research in to a breeding with tons of past data to come through. That is really missing in your lines and therefore make it very very hard for them to feel the breedings are benefiting the pups to be the right way.

These are just some of the things and reasons why your having a hard time finding a breeder with titled dog willing to breed with your program. I think to get to where you want to be you'll need to either lean to handle and show you dogs or get a handle to show them locally for you. With you saying the closest GR club is 4 hours away, I'm betting you'd have a lot of driving to get to any shows as well.

I wish you luck in getting your program to where you want it and where it ultimately should be. I don't know how you would proceed other then to start getting some titles going forward.


----------



## IamNotaRobot (Jan 21, 2016)

Not that it matters to my question but I figured I would share our story.
We love Golden Retrievers with a passion. They have been apart of our lives for more than half our lives. We have 5 adult dogs, our females are 15 years old, 13 years old, 7 years old, and 6 years old, and we have a 3-year-old male. Our adult dogs are our beloved family members. They are involved in every part of our lives. They are our family members, our kids are part of the pack. Our life is completely intertwined with theirs, all of our life decisions are impacted and informed by them. 

We have been having 1 – 2 litters of puppies each year for over 13 years. Over those 13 years we have made some amazing relationships and been a part of so many wonderful forever home families. We get more Christmas cards than you can imagine and love to be a permanent part of these families lives. We have so many families that have gotten multiple generations of dogs from us. We maintain contact with almost all of our dog's offspring’s families. 

We have selected our dogs very carefully, and wait 2 years before even considering using them for breeding. We only have a maximum of one litter every other cycle with a female, and they only ever have 4-5 litters before we fix them. Our dogs who we use for breeding purposes have no known history of any health issues, genetic diseases, hereditary conditions or congenital defects. Our dogs are tested and monitored to prevent hip and elbow dysplasia, cataracts, and sub-aortic stenosis. Each of our dogs is OFA certified for hips, elbows, eyes, and heart. In addition, we have done all available genetic testing to identify carrier genes for the common golden diseases to ensure we do not breed two parents with similar carrier genes, and we have done genetic diversity testing to ensure that sufficient diversity is present when choosing a breeding pair. 

We offer a lifetime (10 year) health guarantee and refund and replace the dog (when the family is ready) if there are ever any health issues. We have a rigorous adoption process for selecting homes and we do temperament testing and help all families in finding the right dog. We hold some dogs back for special homes, ones with super high energy and work drive, we train before homing. We are committed to a happy ending for the dog and family, and we are there, for the life of the dog and more, for our families. 

Over the years there have been sad stories as well, and some of them related to our lack of knowledge at that given time over breeding practices. We have honored our health guarantee several times. The most heart wrenching is the poor families and puppies whose life circumstances were not fair, there were three from the same parents, the case was liver failure which caused premature death. We never bred that pair again, and have been able to unite those families with new furry family members. We have used every single sad story to learn and grow in our commitment to raising healthy dogs that represent the temperament and vitality of the Golden Retriever. We have never had a case of dysplasia, and we heard of our first case of cancer in a 10-year-old dog just last week. Many of our dog's offspring are already 10-13 years old. 

We love our golden retrievers and want to continually add to the story of Golden Retrievers as an integral part of the American family.


----------



## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

I'm not a breeder and sure you will get very different info than I'm going to offer.

There doesn't have to be "show dog" life to produce a quality, breed standard, healthy puppy. Most true hobby breeders hold down full time jobs too... they only breed to support their dog activity hobby. There may not be a breed club close to you, I too cannot join the local GR group as it's 3 hrs away. But to join the GRCA requires going to their website, no meetings, no requirements... just membership dues. So not being a member to learn more about the breed is sort of a lame excuse in my book.

Not everyone breeds conformation show dogs but GOOD breeders do breed to the breed standard. They not only do OFA clearances, they do genetic testing to be sure they are not passing on undeserable problems to the puppies. It doesn't take much to learn how to compete in obedience or rally or some other venue. Attending dog shows and getting involved allows you to find mentors that can help you breed better pups. You can't test temperament or abilities if you don't test... showing is testing. No one is forcing you to use substandard sires that's your choice. Not participating is also a choice. I show in obedience, getting into rally and I don't breed anything. I got to every show that's within 100 miles, watch and learn. 

If breeding a litter or not breeding affects your income then you are approaching it from a very different perspective than a quality breeder. Volunteer at the local events, watch and learn. A good breeder has taken a great deal of time, years and money... to put titles of some sort on their dogs, they make sure they are built to standard and only breed to a female of equal or better quality. After all their Kennel name is on this litter. The stud you choose should have qualities that improve your girl. Have you taken the time to learn about the genetics or structure of the breed? How do they know what values your dog will offer if you don't do anything but breed? You need to get your girl out there and prove she has something to offer.

The world is full of puppies, poorly bred dogs are the ones that usually end up in the pounds. You will NEVER see a quality bred dog at the pound. But make no mistake... you may be doing clearances but without knowledge of the breed or giving any effort to improve the breed, you are a backyard breeder.


----------



## usually lurking (Apr 21, 2017)

There was a thread by DanaRuns a while back, in which she discussed tiers of breeders. I mentioned that I felt that tier one breeders - those showing and doing all clearances - should try to close the gap with tier two breeders - those doing clearances, and not showing. Well, here's an example. The OP wants to do better. The OP *wants* assistance in contributing to the breed that they love. The OP doesn't want to be that breeder that we all criticize. Everyone starts somewhere. Someone on here can provide guidance as to how to do better by the breed. Who's it going to be? Puddles suggests joining the closest club, even if meetings can't be attended, and going to any shows that are possible, just to talk and learn. What else can the OP do to find a mentor??


----------



## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

IamNotaRobot said:


> ...We wish we could participate. But that is the barrier that causes the issue at hand. Since we are not able to participate, and our dogs do not have titles, we are apparently terrible people who everyone casts labels on and immediately judges us and our dogs as substandard.
> 
> We raise family pets because the Golden Retriever is the most perfect family companion, and there are so many families out there just like ours who just want a golden family member, not a show dog, and *all they care about is health and temperament, *and that they represent a golden. Which leads me to the catch 22 dilemma. Even though we are not members, we follow the GRCA code of ethics. *We have done all the genetic tests and gotten all the clearances, but it is the first generation in our line with these*. We would like to keep another female puppy from our next litter since we are about to fix our last intact female after that litter. *We want to use a Sire who has a good lineage of clearances and health, and that has all the genetic testing done.* We have contacted almost everyone we can find in our area who has a Sire with what we are looking for, and the second they find out we are not GRCA members and do not show our dogs, the conversation ends. They are usually very nice (_*usually*_), but are not willing to even discuss the possibility of us using their Sire to parent a litter with our Dam. We completely understand it and appreciate everyone’s dedication to the breed. If we were asked to have our Sire parent another litter, we would go through an arduous process before approving the mating.
> 
> ...



You have so much going on here that is problematic that I almost don't know where to start. You want to benefit and presumably profit off of the years of hard work and money spent proving that these stud dogs have the mental and physical traits of a correct Golden (that is exactly what people are doing when they compete with their Goldens in Hunt Tests or Obedience Trials or show in conformation, prove their mental and physical correctness) but you are offended that they don't want to risk watering down all their efforts by producing puppies with your bitch's extremely risky DNA? 

Do you understand the irony at play here? Stud owners aren't turning you down because you aren't part of some exclusive club. They are turning you down because you don't care about the good name of the stud dog they've worked so hard to build. It's wonderful that your bitch passed clearances, but she has multiple generations of dogs behind her with zero proof that they don't have tons of problems with hips, elbows or heart or eyes which would be lurking to be passed along. It's wonderful that you think your bitch is worth reproducing but these people have no proof that anyone else agrees with you because you won't even train her enough to get a CanineGoodCitizen certificate for her. As far as they know your bitch and her ancestors have lost all the great things about Goldens such as biddability and desire to please, focus and retrieving instinct because no one bothered to title the dogs occasionally. THat's how genetics work, if a breeder doesn't select for those traits, they change and slip away. The last thing a good stud dog owner wants to risk is his dog being the sire of a bunch of puppies who are getting 50% of their genetic input from dogs who may have lost their good mental traits and who no one bothered to try to reduce the likelihood of hip dysplasia for. These things are proven to be inherited. 

Pet Goldens are just as important as performance or conformation Goldens. They and their families deserve attention to not losing those mental traits that make them special and they certainly deserve to be produced with attention to giving them every possible health advantage. You have no idea how much better your dogs could be if you've never trained and competed with them. You don't realize that you're breeding dogs with physical defects that may actually cause them to be unable to physically do the job they were bred for. You don't know why correct angles, good layback of shoulder and a level top line are important to the dog not breaking down if you've never cared to ask for education from a 'show dog' person. It's not all about hairspray, it's about the dogs being strong enough not to be injured doing their jobs. I'm not a dog show person but I find your attitude a little off putting. I agree they're over groomed and I personally prefer the look of a correct, working coat but caring about these traits is important to the breed and by admitting you don't care enough to bother learning about them, it tells us you may love your dogs but you don't care about long term preservation of the breed or why they should look and act to be a good hunting dog. 

THere is a need for carefully bred pets, but you do no one any favors if you just produce dogs with no attention to correct mental and physical traits. There is no favor if you breed dogs without bothering to understand why people in these silly shows and competitions care so much about what they're doing or why it is exponentially riskier to produce puppies with a bitch who is the only one in her line with health clearances. You think you're being judged by people but when you haven't bothered with clearances until you cleared this young bitch, you might be a little more understanding that they are concerned about what will happen to the puppies.


----------



## cwag (Apr 25, 2017)

Here's the link to Dana's discussion about this subject
https://www.goldenretrieverforum.co.../507334-buyers-dont-care-nor-should-they.html


----------



## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

First, I commend you for following the CoE. 
I hope that means a cardiologist heart clearance and yearly eyes... 
And I hope that you spend the few dollars it takes to make a permanent, searchable record on OFA by sending the heart and eyes in to them.

I get what you're saying - you feel like you are in a catch 22 because you do nothing w your dogs, and no one who does do with their stud dogs will cover your bitches. 
Let me say a couple things on that. I don't know anyone who breeds their girls 4-5 times. That's asking a lot of a dog, to bear 4-5 litters and raise them. And you do not say what you charge for your puppies, but I bet it's in the neighborhood of what a breeder who is doing all they can do for the breed charges. If that's so, and you don't say where you live either but lets just call it mid-America. You're having average 4.5 litters of 8 puppies @ $2k per out of each bitch. For that kind of money, whether YOU have time or inclination or not, you can pay someone to title your girls to a CD and JH. Those are useful titles and preserve the dog's 'born to do'. And you can get a CCA yourself on your girls, so you know what they are lacking. Assuming your girls are reasonably birdy and reasonably smart, a CD and JH w a trainer would cost you probably $600 a month for 6-8 months. That's maybe 2.5 puppies with entries included. Many doors would open for you as to choices if your bitches were titled, and you might find you enjoy watching and want to have a new hobby that really partners you with your dog... 
The other piece is what happens with the puppies you make. Are you the sort who allows puppies to be bred by their owners? No one who has a nice stud dog would be open to that idea. Ever. 
I let a woman use one of my dogs once, she was not unlike you. At the same time, she was night and day from what you appear to be. Everything about my dog improved her bitch who had every clearance under the sun and was the first in her line w clearances in many many generations. That woman was going to breed her bitch anyway- and make puppies anyway- and she really wanted to get involved in the titling side of things. She could easily have purchased a nice bitch- well, maybe not easily- but she could have afforded it is my point. She adored her girl and we came to an agreement on the offspring that let her improve her bitch and let her breed her keeper, too- but not until her keeper had two titles worth 4 points each on the versatility scale. From my perspective, I was taking a huge risk. And I was committing to mentoring her, which is no small thing. From her perspective, she had a teacher and a bitch she could build on once she got the clearances and titles on her keeper. She paid a trainer to do a JH and she paid another to do a CD... and then she did herself a CCA and a RN and put a CD herself on the original bitch.. plus a bunch of 'fun' titles, like dock diving and rat hunting and lure coursing. And she did breed her keeper, bred her well... this keeper is going to be her first conformation dog. She's a success story coming from your place. But she was driven to do better than she was prior and she had a mentor. 
Coming off that success, you'd think I would be open to another such gal but no, it takes a sincerity on the part of the bitch owner that is rare to find. While I find your story interesting, and do applaud your clearance history, nothing in your story makes me think you are more than a BYB. You might see yourself in a catch22 but really you are not- all you have to do to become a better breeder is do more than the little bit you are already doing. And if you will tell us where you live, someone will know a trainer you can hire to make yourself more attractive to stud owners. But don't expect even with titles to have them happy to cover an incorrect bitch or one whose owner is cranking out puppies for their buyers to breed too. This is a very unsafe breed to not know everything about every dog behind them. Approaching it as you are- looking for titles, for instance, in a stud dog- not the best method. You need a mentor, and you need to study, study, study.. and soak up every tidbit you learn. Approach this as more than just making puppies.


----------



## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

JFYI- a 'hobby breeder' is a person who breeds dogs as a side effect of exhibiting dogs. The hobby is not the breeding.

And showing isn't about hairspray, it is about conformation. Conformation is the way a dog's body is put together. All those parts and pieces are equally important. A CCA event would be very useful to you. There are many venues, not all of them focus on grooming but even in conformation, a dog's body being correctly put together is what is being judged. Those same body parts are what allows a Golden to hunt all day, to sit quietly while waiting on a bird to fall, to honor other dogs' retrieves, to swim without going vertical. Everything that makes a Golden look like a Golden is also what makes a Golden a good companion and a reliable worker.


----------



## ktgrok (Apr 11, 2019)

You could, if you care truly about the health of your dogs and the puppies, use one of the studs that you say you are helping the owners get clearances on. Yes, you might have to skip a heat cycle, so what? Do you care more about the health of the potential puppies, or more about breeding every heat cycle (which you shouldn't do anyway)??


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

There are people who like my mom and dad, for example, do not understand all the bits and pieces in the breed standard. I can explain to them - and I can literally see it going in one ear and out the other. My mom and dad - I love them very much, but they are never allowed to become dog breeders because they literally are stuck on the 60's mentality that a dog is breeding quality as long as they have papers and are nice looking dogs. 

Sometimes there are backyard breeders out there who are kinda like my mom and dad. They have no idea what makes a good dog breeding quality. I've seen my mom get all mushy about dogs we meet at the vet or whatnot, and I'm standing next to here smiling and noticing a lot of things which might be incorrect. I would never EVER tell somebody what's wrong with their dog - even when a person asks, sometimes they aren't expecting criticism. But I also remember being in that position. 

When you show dogs in conformation - it teaches you more than anything else HANDS ON what should be there. Or what is there. 

When you compete in obedience with dogs, it teaches you HANDS ON what should be there. Or what is there. <= Generally speaking, you learn what you WANT to do right the next time.

Showing my older boy in conformation since he was about 15 months old... I actually learned what I appreciated with him when I practiced with my older dog back then. My show dog had length of leg and balance - which means that he knew where to set his feet and his back feet could be placed correctly without him looking overstretched. 

My other boy back then had an excellent front. Better front on him than any dogs out there in the show ring. But he did not have as good a rear. He did not have the length of leg he should have to balance out that great front. And putting his feet back where they belong (straight line down from the butt bones) made him look over stretched. 

Bone is another interesting thing. Most young dogs are very light boned. Even when people say "my dog's all done growing" - what they should do is feel their dog's legs and feel the legs of an adult intact dog and feel the difference. 

By the time dogs are 3-4 years old, their bones are solid and dense and just really strong feeling. 

But pups, even when they appear to be big boned, they are relatively light boned in comparison....  <= Has nothing to do with conformation. Has a lot to do with when people decide to neuter/spay their dogs. 

Competing in obedience - I will never forget sitting at ringside at a fun match and watching the top GSP (OTCH/MH/MACH/GRCH, etc) in the obedience ring and just loving the ease of movement aided by excellent structure. 

I don't see that very often with performance bred goldens. I see a lot of hackney movement. I see a lot of pacing. When the dogs aren't heeling, I see them doing a very clumsy type running through walls movement vs a full extended trot like I saw with that GSP. It's not what I would call beautiful movement aided by excellent structure. A lot of performance bred dogs have odd things going on with structure. It doesn't help matters that breeders are breeding what they want and not what they should. 

So anyways. 

1. Thank you for following the COE with your dogs and doing your best. I was a little confused about what you were saying about stud dogs. If you were trying to defend breeding your own dogs vs paying stud fees for big field dogs, I get that. But if you were trying to defend breeding to dogs who have no clearances, that's wrong. That's not following the COE.

2. I get that everyone's got a different way of viewing stuff, but please don't assume that conformation is all cutting hair and hair spray. 

When I groom my dogs - it's the SAME GROOMING ROUTINE that pet dogs should get. Paws are trimmed around the pads, ears are cleaned/neatened up, tails are trimmed/neatened. Maybe necks are thinned out a little bit, nothing major. Dogs are bathed and dried so they are clean. That's it. 

If you see my signature pic - those dogs just had their ears/feet/tail trimmed. They had not yet been bathed, and in fact both had been covered with black muck earlier that same day. It flaked off. 

Hairspray - I've been told not to use, because the judge can feel it in the coat. This is not a hairspray breed. 

If we didn't bathe/blow dry the dogs 1-2 hours before showing - probably more people would be using products to fix flippies. You don't have to if you bathe and blow dry the dogs. The dogs can be shown with minimal products then. 

3. I started obedience training our first dog when I was 10 years old. Never thought I could compete with him???? My next dog, I absolutely wanted to compete with him and did. He got his obedience title when I was still a teenager and this was back when there was nothing easier than novice (CD) in obedience. 

I've been working full time all along since that dog. I'd go to work very early and come home to pick up my dogs and go out the barn to work horses. And then I'd go to dog training class. If there was no dog training class, then I stayed at the barn longer hours. 

Even more recently as I've gotten hooked on showing every weekend in summer if I can... I've still worked full time. 

I've got a nice job right now with flexible scheduling, but before that - I went to work in the morning, came home in the evening - and went back out to train my dogs. And I still showed on weekends. I showed horses, did obedience training and trials, and gradually replaced showing horses with conformation. 

When somebody with a non-show pedigree dog says they don't care to show. You think immediately that's a good thing because their dog isn't show quality. 

But when somebody says they don't do trials or anything - because they work regular jobs and have kids, and so on... I have to say that you choose what you do or don't do. A lot of people use jobs and kids as excuses for not spending an hour or few a day away from their tv's and computers. That's all it takes for training your dogs in obedience and getting into that sport or others. 

I know members of GRF who scare the heck out of me from how much they do in addition to having regular jobs. It's a lot more than I listed.

4. Thought I'd add this one since I own boy dogs. I would be very leery about having somebody use my dog for stud if their dog does not in any way resemble my dog. To me, that would be like breeding my dog to a lab (big nono!!!!). So there are very few performance bred girlies who I'd be OK with having them use my dog. Some performance breeders with top in obedience bitches - I would NEVER want them to use my dog. Has nothing to do with titles in that case. Has everything to do with chances of my dog getting listed as producing dogs who are very poor breed quality in my opinion. 

That said, I would never get asked by those same people. Their pups get to looking the way they do because the breeders are more focused on working quality vs breed quality. Which means they are looking for fully loaded pedigrees. 

I'd be very surprised to hear about a performance stud owner turning down a query from somebody who is wanting to improve their pedigrees with that person's dog. Perhaps politics is an issue in those cases. Or you haven't asked the right people.

I apologize if this offends anyone, but this is a reason why both a show dog owner and a performance dog owner would turn down a prospective query. 

I know somebody who - I actually looked up her dogs on K9data because somebody said she just had backyard lines. And I knew for a fact that she had big names behind her dogs. I was confused about what the byb thing about until I looked at the lines. Going back to the 2000's, she had basically pet bred dogs with full clearances. That's every generation. No skipping the studs! Based on what I can see, a big performance breeder started mentoring her - let her used a pretty big stud + sold a co-own girl puppy to her which completely changed her program. This breeder is a member of a local golden club, but not the big show club. I don't think she's gone to any conformation shows. She does obedience and rally with her dogs and is very responsible and careful about what she breeds. <= That's a type of breeder who is not just breeding and keeping the money. The money is going back into improving what she's breeding and she's made very good connections with people who are helping her.


----------



## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Hobby Breeders are those who are involved in the sport of purebred dogs (the sport of purebred dogs is their hobby) and also breed dogs. They may be involved with conformation but that is only one facet of the sport of purebred dogs. There is also field, obedience, tracking, agility, etc. My guess is that one or some of these venues are available to you within a reasonable distance. Participating in these activities will help to broaden your dog experience and introduce you to more people to improve your chances of networking with other dog owners.


----------



## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

"the GRCA has created a submarket for backyard breeders by their member's exclusive practices. Now even if we did find someone willing to start all the testing and clearances, the time required to do so may mean that the timing would not work for our Dam.

I hope you can see the problem in that statement. There are people out there who love the golden retriever, are committed to the dog as a family companion, but do not want to live the show dog lifestyle. But because of the lack of accessibility to Sires of merit, are forced to source a sire from a “backyard breeder”. Thus, the never-ending cycle of show dogs vs. companion dogs. My fear is that someday the two will be viewed as separate breeds. If the GRCA was more focused on educating those who want to responsibly breed dogs, but not show them, and make it okay for members to talk with breeders who do not show their dogs, I believe we would have a much more robust, diverse, and healthy breed. A rising tide raises all ships, so please help me answer how can someone dedicated to the breed, but unable to live the show dog lifestyle, be a participant in the legacy and lineage of the Golden Retriever?[/QUOTE]

So on this- GRCA did not create any submarkets. GRCA purpose is to preserve this breed and educate. Responsible breeding is a part of that. What you are doing does not appear to be responsible breeding, regardless of your opinion on that... because you do not know what responsible breeding truly is. You're not connected, you have no sources of information, you have no real appreciation for what is a correct dog or you wouldn't be doing what you do. The CoE covers FAR MORE than just getting clearances. Have you read the document? And yes, getting clearances does put you on the totem pole above those who do not but in real life, clearances are so very minor once done (and so major if not done) in the grand scheme of what makes a responsible GOOD breeder. Educating requires an audience. GRCA does educate but when you don't know what GRCA does, you don't know what opportunities are out there for learning. I mentioned the CCA program. Funding it costs a fortune every year to GRCA but it is done for education. You'd so benefit by entering all your dogs in one. Learn about them. Learn what the body parts are, what they do for the dog, and why they are the way they are. Why does the Standard say what it says about any body part?(the Standard you think your dogs conform to but do you know where they depart from it?) What's the purpose of a slightly sloping croup? (what is a croup for that matter- do you use that word when you refer to that part of your dog? do you use correct verbiage on all the body parts? if you are going to be a better breeder you need to learn about this breed and what we call the parts and pieces and what job those parts do) Why do Goldens have a more defined stop than a FCR? Why do the feet need to be catlike rather than rabbitlike? What happens to the dog's movement when front and rear are not balanced? Why do they need leg length? What is correct movement as it is illustrated by the topline, or by the foot placement, or by the head carraige? I'd suggest you go to GRCA.org and buy a copy of Marcia Schlehr's Blue Book and check out from your library a copy of Rachel Page Elliott's Dogsteps. And stop worrying about being left out and instead start learning. Study both books. 
Invest your brain in your dogs.
GRCA is not an elite group. It is a group of people devoted to the Golden Retriever who all work really hard to educate others, and learn more ourselves. Learning never stops. Refusing to cover a bitch whose genetics are unknown and whose owners are not invested in more than just making puppies to sell is not being exclusive it is protecting the hard work of many through the stud dog's generations who all were equally invested. There is no reason to trust someone who doesn't show any understanding or appreciation of that one thing.


----------



## eeerrrmmm1 (Apr 15, 2018)

IamNotaRobot said:


> In addition, we have done all available genetic testing to identify carrier genes for the common golden diseases to ensure we do not breed two parents with similar carrier genes, and we have done genetic diversity testing to ensure that sufficient diversity is present when choosing a breeding pair.


It's great to hear from a BYB that's doing genetic testing and clearances. That's a huge step up from the average BYB right there. Make a commitment to not breed unless the stud has genetic testing and clearances. Keep looking for other ethical but non-showing breeders that have done all of the health clearances and have dogs with good GR temperaments. It's completely understandable why an owner with a titled stud will not breed to your girl. But there must be other BYBs out there that are doing better than average and have done health clearances. Maybe offer to pay for the genetic testing?

I just cannot see how limiting the gene pool down further and further can possibly be a positive. It seems that the primary purpose of titling and showing is to prove that your dog is an exceptional example of the breed. That's great but there just aren't enough of them. Period. There aren't enough. Golden's are one of the most popular breeds in America. We need more BYBs that are doing genetic testing and health clearances. Not everyone wants to show and the vast majority of people looking to get a Golden Retriever do not care at all if their dog is typey or wants to dive off docks. And as far as temperament, the majority of GRs in the US are from BYBs. And the GR rescue organizations are flying GRs in from Turkey and Egypt because there's no great need here to help abandoned GRs. Which means BYBs are mostly producing dogs that families love probably because they have the great GR temperament even though they came from non-titled dogs. The vast majority of owners just want their GRs to be healthier. So do the genetic testing and health clearances, make reasonable decisions in your breeding program. Why discourage a BYB that's at least doing genetic testing and health clearances and has not seen a high incidence of cancer in their lines?


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Eeerrrmmm1, that is not that answer either. 

The type of breeder who is defined as a BYB and the typical dogs bred by them do NOT help the breed right now.

We don't want this breed to become like labs, beagles, chihuahuas, or others where you have a GLUT of puppies being produced and sold with no questions asked to homes that will turn around and start making more puppies as soon as possible.

If people want to start breeding these dogs - we want them to become as guarded and protective as other breeders. And not irresponsibly producing puppies just because there's a market to sell pups to. It starts with getting full clearances. It continues with gaining knowledge and expertise with this breed and learning to love it enough to know that just pumping puppies out left and right as a side income doesn't make you a responsible and reputable breeder. 

GR Rescue organizations are importing rescue dogs because people are wanting to adopt golden retrievers (they aren't looking to buy puppies from breeders) and there are not enough dogs flowing into rescue shelters for them to adopt.


----------



## aesthetic (Apr 23, 2015)

You know, when I was first looking for a golden puppy five years ago, I was kind of overwhelmed. I didn't really understand how or where to find a great breeder who was doing everything correctly. I had never had a dog before, and I had always just assumed that finding a breeder would be easy or I would just end up rescuing a dog. Imagine my surprise when I sat down one day and did some googling! There was so much information on finding a breeder that reading all those articles and all the threads on this forum pushed my breeder search back by 6 months. It was so overwhelming, but I did end up finding a breeder who checked off all the boxes I had at the time. 

I am incredibly grateful for that breeder and this puppy. I have learned a ridiculous amount from this boy in his four years of life, I have met an incredible amount of people because of this boy, and I have an insane amount of opportunities now because of him. I don't compete with him (because he currently does not have the mental capabilities), I don't show him (he's got his flaws), I don't even dabble in many sports with him. What I DO do is train him. At my local training facility. Not at a GRCA club. Maybe I got lucky and there are a surprising number of golden retriever people near me, but more than anything, I think I just have connections. Now I know people, and I know people who know people. There are amazing breeders who are fairly open to selling me a well bred golden puppy when I have the ability to take on another. I have friends that would have absolutely no problem vouching for me to breeders THEY know.

By the time I finished typing this all out, I realized that none of this matters in regards to the OP, but hopefully someone reading this will gain some kernel of knowledge or something. My point is that you don't necessarily have to throw yourself into competition to get opportunity. You just have to work with what you have. 

That being said, I'm not really a fan of using family or distance or time as an excuse not to do something. I am of the firm belief that you make time to do the things you want to do. If training your dog is important to you, you'll make time to do it even if that means waking up two hours earlier or driving 2 hours farther. I say this as a full time college student who works two jobs and STILL manages to take my dog to my training facility 3-4x a week.


----------



## IamNotaRobot (Jan 21, 2016)

Thank you for those of you with constructive comments. 

For those of you who have jumped to conclusions about me, or anyone else you label, you have proven my point. 

We actively participate in our local dog training club, our dogs have their CGC, I will not go through the list and try to defend us, because that is beside my point. 

The main reason we choose not to participate in the show circles is becuase of the people. It is a culture thing, and I get it. I am sorry if I made too broad of generalizations, and I realize that there are some very good people who are willing to help others who participate in the GRCA, but the few in leadership positions that I have interacted with have put a sour enough taste in my mouth that I wish never to be associated with them. I fully support the GRCA mission, and like I stated in my OP, "We understand the value of the shows, of competition, of title, and of the clubs" and we greatly appreciate the passion, education, and best practices from the hard work of those dedicated to the breed.


----------



## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

I appreciate what you are saying... and sorry you have met some not so friendly people. LOL it's sort of like high school and I'm the outsider at events as I don't train with a club but when we achieve great scores they lighten up and realize I'm dedicated. I will have 3 different dogs in competition this year and see the same faces at the events. After a while they figure out I'm serious about the sport. Some groups are friendlier than others but do my best to support the competitors regardless if I know them or not. 

JMHO I don't get involved to be social, I go to learn and compete. I can learn from anyone, some just by watching but not about to let a few sour apples get in my way of learning more about the breed I love so much and enjoying the opportunity. I honestly don't care if they like me or not but have no problems approaching people and asking questions. Shoot I drove 14 hours by myself to attend a CCA event... sort of a mini vacay and saved for a year to do it  And learned so much about structure, people and loved watching each dog that was reviewed. It was a great learning experience. I have two children (with spouses) 10 grand kids and 5 great grand kids. My life is busy too. BTW my pups get their CGC at 6 months  It only takes a few minutes to train.

If you want to have a better breeding program you need to make the time & effort to get involved.... with something. There is lots of knowledge out there and most breeders are happy to talk about the breed they love, just have to listen. If you are content to just breed puppies I wish you well but don't put the lack of quality sires on anyone but yourself.


----------



## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

@IamNotaRobot 

First, thanks for coming here and pouring out your heart to a bunch of strangers in an effort to better your program. Second, thank you for doing clearances and following the GRCA Code of Ethics. I should start by saying that I am not a breeder, but I do show. It's clear from your post that you love your dogs and this breed very much. (sorry if I'm repeating below what others have said)

I am sorry that you've had such experiences with the show world, but there are a lot of really wonderful people in that world too. You don't have to live the "show dog lifestyle" (meaning traveling all over the place and spending bookoodles of money) to show and finish a championship on a dog. I'm married, work a full time job, and have a life outside of work, yet my main hobby is training and exhibiting dogs. I LOVE Rally and Obedience (which I do with my boy who is almost halfway to a Rally Champion title) and am going to start showing my girl in conformation this fall then Rally and Obedience later on, but I will not be living "the show dog lifestyle". I will be going to local shows within driving distance and showing maybe one weekend a month or less on average for a year. Lucky for me there are a decent amount of shows within driving distance that have enough dogs to get majors pretty much every year - not that I'm guaranteed to win or anything. It may take a little longer, but I'm hopeful that I can finish her championship owner-handled. I am VERY lucky to be involved in a great local club with wonderful people that are willing to help me through this. Anyway, the point is that you don't have to live this lifestyle to show and finish a dog. There are more people than you probably think that don't live the lifestyle and are wonderful people that are more than willing to help you and they do it because of their love for their dogs and this breed. 

I think sometimes people forget what a conformation show is at its heart (or don't know to begin with). It's an exhibition of breeding stock. That's all it is. Just like a livestock show: the judges are evaluating essentially the same things per a written standard for that breed/species - structure, movement, coat, etc. There are written standards for various breeds of sheep, cows, pigs, goats, horses, etc. and all of these animals are judged against their standard and the best version of that standard is chosen. What you see at the county fair is not really any different from a dog show if you peel back the layers. The fact that conformation shows are an exhibition of breeding stock is why it's important for those breeding to take part. Or at the very least get a CCA (Certificate of Conformation Assessment). Three different judges will evaluate and score your dog on several categories from the breed standard and provide you with a written critique of your dog. 

I would also like to address something else from your posts: the perception that show dogs aren't treasured family companions and that show breeders are not producing these dogs. This perception is incorrect. The vast majority of show dogs are in fact beloved family pets. That is their primary job, regardless of what venue they show in. My Rally dog is first and foremost my very much loved pet. Rally is something that we do together for fun and the training we've done for these competitions has strengthened our bond and relationship beyond what I imagined. <-- and that is the heart of dog training - at least to me. My conformation girl will always be a pet first and a show dog second. 

The vast majority of puppies of bred by show breeders go to loving pet homes - and being a treasured family companion is the most important job a Golden can have, which is why it's so important that they are built correctly and have correct temperaments and are given the best possible start in life. Show breeders are stacking the odds in favor of health and longevity to the best of their ability for the puppies they produce and they take this responsibility extremely seriously. <-- It sounds like this what you are striving to do, but without showing. 

I encourage you to get out there and try, regardless of how people have been to you in the past. You may have more fun than you are expecting.  I have personally met some absolutely wonderful people just by sitting ringside at shows and talking to the strangers around me - then they stop being strangers. Showing/competing isn't just about proving your dog's worth and contribution to the breed, it's also about getting out there and having fun with your dog. I think you should at least try to get involved in Rally, Obedience, or Agility if you still do not want to do conformation - and your kids can help with this: there are 4H programs all over the place that support dog training and showing and they can show in AKC as juniors (bonus: entry fees are A LOT cheaper for juniors).


----------



## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

Showing a dog is not the only sport you could be participating in to prove the worthiness of your dog. A good hunting dog or good agility dog requires breed standard structure. Obedience and therapy require the intelligence and temperament called for in the breed standard. Without competing in these venues, there is no objective way to evaluate whether your dogs should be bred. At the very least, you should be getting a CCA to make sure your dogs adhere to breed standard. Being a great family dog is not an objective evaluation. 

I guess my simple question to you is, if you aren't doing this, why do you feel the need to breed? Millions of people have the greatest dog in the world, the most beautiful dog in the world, the best family pet ever - but they don't breed. The breed standard is there for a reason. Hunt, obedience, tracking, agility... all of those sports require a dog who is positive and resilient and trainable, and built correctly to standard. One of the most interesting conversations I ever had about Goldens was with the owner of my dog's father about why the Golden is built as it is - until then, I had no idea why the dog's face is shaped like it is. It's an important part of the breed for a reason. Same with their front, and their tail, and their paws. I just thought they were beautiful. But almost every part of their body is the way it is for a reason that goes all the way back to the purpose for which they were created. 

I do applaud you for doing the health clearances - that is a huge first step. And really important. But it's not everything. I hope if you do continue to breed that you will consider some of the constructive advice and criticism you've received here. As others have said, the hobby in hobby breeding is the dog sport training/competition. And hobbies are expensive and time-consuming. But you do them because you love them and they bring something positive to your life. They definitely don't make you any money! :smile2:


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

IamNotaRobot said:


> For those of you who have jumped to conclusions about me, or anyone else you label, you have proven my point.
> -
> The main reason we choose not to participate in the show circles is becuase of the people. It is a culture thing, and I get it.


You didn't clarify what you meant re stud dogs. Are you using your own studs or just using stud dogs who have no clearances? That was the question I had, because it was unclear. 

Other thing going through my head is you said you have done multiple litters and breed routinely every year... and I'm assuming without going back to review what you posted that you have at least 3 generations of bitches that you are breeding. If you are doing all clearances - that should mean you have 3 generations of clearances behind what you are currently breeding. 

Might be you said that you are breeding to boys who have their clearances, but only on them and nothing behind.

Or were you explaining why you breed to untitled dogs with clearances vs finding dogs with titles to use as a studs for your planned litters?

You see where I'm confused? One of your comments about getting a stud to start all the testing and the timing not working for when your girls go into season implied you are using boys who do not have clearances on them. Which is NOT following the COE as you say you are.

W/R to anything else that might have been said, you realize that we do not know who you are or anything about your dogs beyond what you said or suggested. Among else, I'm just assuming that the puppies in the other thread were yours. 

As I recall, nobody was rude about the puppies at all and people mainly just recommended that the puppy buyer confirm there were full clearances on the parents at least. Among else, if you stick around long enough you see people inquiring about a LOT of breeders where the clearances are spotty and/or there are signs of people using dogs who failed hips or elbows. 

The whole thing about not liking people in the dog show or competition world... eh. There's 1 negative person for every 10 good people in any sport.

I hear about people using that and "too busy" as an excuse not to participate in sports to build their dogs pedigree and get their dogs names out there... and it gets frustrating because everyone I know who is actively showing dogs on weekends has a full time job, and in some cases demanding jobs + they are wanting to be with their kids on the weekends. I've seen pro handlers with a string of dogs who have brought their babies (and their moms or husbands) to dog shows with them. And there's more than that. 

I've gotta run for coffee, but just pointing out that nobody should rely on excuses if they are breeding dogs for profit. 

Gotta add, I know of a few very long time established breeders who do not participate in any sports anymore. I don't know really what I think about that across the board. Some people are OK - and still as sharp as ever about what they know about the breed and knowing what to breed. Others seem to have regressed to snapping turtle level and blaming everyone and everything else, lying about the health of what they breed, and so on.


----------



## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

IamNotaRobot said:


> Thank you for those of you with constructive comments.
> 
> For those of you who have jumped to conclusions about me, or anyone else you label, you have proven my point.
> 
> ...


Maybe I am not very bright but I don't know why you posted about if it wasn't to gain some understanding on why stud dog owners aren't interested in covering your bitches?
Is this an 'everyone gets a trophy' thing? Or, in this case, everyone gets to use the best stud dogs on any bitch with clearances?
As many have stated- you can get titles. Titles like a CD and JH would open doors for you but it seems like you want the doors to be open for you without the investment.

Kate- what puppies in the other thread?


----------



## eeerrrmmm1 (Apr 15, 2018)

Prism Goldens said:


> I don't know what you posted about if it wasn't to gain some understanding on why stud dog owners aren't interested in covering your bitches?


I think that's what he/she was saying with the "Thank you for the constructive comments" bit. He asked a question and got a clear answer that people who have titled their dogs have simply worked way too hard to then allow a breeding with an untitled dog.


----------



## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

IamNotaRobot said:


> I will start this post by admitting my sin. We are Golden Retriever hobby breeders, but I think most on this site would call us “backyard breeders”. This post is not an attempt to defend ourselves and definitely not backyard breeders. It is an honest plea to help us fill in the gap, and work on a serious issue.
> 
> I will share our story in a separate post but wanted this one to be focused on the issue.
> We do not have show dogs, we do not breed show dogs. Our lineage is through working lines, and pets. It is not a titled lineage. We live in an area where the closest GRCA club is 4 hours away and participation is not feasible. We are not perfect and our dogs are not perfect, we don’t pretend to be. We are honest people, who love our dogs and find purpose and value in raising them. But we also work jobs, have kids, and live normal lives. We do not have time to live the show dog life, and we prefer our dogs without haircuts and hair spray. We have been to many of the shows, events, and clinics, and yes our dogs have smaller bones, and shorter/less hair, and red/dark golden coats, but for weight, height, stature and build, and temperament, from our un-educated perspective, our dogs meet the breed standard. We love the breed and are always trying to learn more about them and how to improve our practices as owners and breeders. We understand the value of the shows, of competition, of title, and of the clubs. We wish we could participate. But that is the barrier that causes the issue at hand. Since we are not able to participate, and our dogs do not have titles, we are apparently terrible people who everyone casts labels on and immediately judges us and our dogs as substandard.
> ...


Where are you located? I know plenty of folks that would be willing to stud their dog out to a bitch w/ clearances but no titles & several of these are AKC champions (obviously we're not talking about Top 20 rankings or the flavor of the day popular stud dog...not that that makes them a good fit for your girls, but seriously, I can't fathom why you're being turned down by ALL dogs you've inquired about unless there is more to the story.


----------



## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

SheetsSM said:


> Where are you located? I know plenty of folks that would be willing to stud their dog out to a bitch w/ clearances but no titles & several of these are AKC champions (obviously we're not talking about Top 20 rankings or the flavor of the day popular stud dog...not that that makes them a good fit for your girls, but seriously, I can't fathom why you're being turned down by ALL dogs you've inquired about unless there is more to the story.



I agree. 
If you emailed or called me out of the blue I would certainly entertain talking to you. CLEARANCES ARE THE BIG HURDLE. For anyone. I would absolutely demand verified clearances. I would also require that you sell puppies on limited registration. Beyond that, I would want to talk to you and meet you and your dogs and if everything felt right then I'd have no problem letting you use one of my stud dogs. I'm waiting on a similar story for her bitch to come in. People in my town with 4 generations of bitches they've bred, wanting to breed a pet litter to give to friends and family, and keep one for themselves. They've done all the clearances. They're super nice people. Their dogs are lovely pets. They have zero interest in showing, and that's fine. 
I'm helping another acquaintance find a good bitch to begin a pet breeding program. Again -- no interest in showing. 100% interest in breeding healthy pets. 
One of Bally's first litters...the dam of the bitch he bred was total newspaper pedigree. She didn't have an elbow clearance because nobody knew they had to send the elbow xrays in to OFA too. But they were trying. They did better with the next generation. Somebody took a chance, and the breeder learned more as she went along. 
Some people are just snobby. Some people care about the breed and want to help willing people breed better dogs.


----------



## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

K9-Design said:


> I agree.
> If you emailed or called me out of the blue I would certainly entertain talking to you. CLEARANCES ARE THE BIG HURDLE. For anyone. I would absolutely demand verified clearances. I would also require that you sell puppies on limited registration. Beyond that, I would want to talk to you and meet you and your dogs and if everything felt right then I'd have no problem letting you use one of my stud dogs. I'm waiting on a similar story for her bitch to come in. People in my town with 4 generations of bitches they've bred, wanting to breed a pet litter to give to friends and family, and keep one for themselves. They've done all the clearances. They're super nice people. Their dogs are lovely pets. They have zero interest in showing, and that's fine.
> I'm helping another acquaintance find a good bitch to begin a pet breeding program. Again -- no interest in showing. 100% interest in breeding healthy pets.
> One of Bally's first litters...the dam of the bitch he bred was total newspaper pedigree. She didn't have an elbow clearance because nobody knew they had to send the elbow xrays in to OFA too. But they were trying. They did better with the next generation. Somebody took a chance, and the breeder learned more as she went along.
> Some people are just snobby. Some people care about the breed and want to help willing people breed better dogs.


Overall I agree with you in the sense that if eventually this is what BYB become, the breed overall would be far better if for it. That BYB do the 4 core health clearances and maybe even the DNA tests like pra, icth, and NCL. You're always going to have the show breeders and dogs getting titled, but for the average Joe looking for a golden, it would be much better if the BYB breedings offered a dog with a much better chance at being healthy.

I think getting to that point is going to take a huge hurculean effort and a major shift from the current breeder's that spend the huge dollars getting dogs titled. I'm not sure that will ever fully happen, maybe by a few like yourself that's seeing it differently and are willing.


----------



## ktgrok (Apr 11, 2019)

Maggie'sVoice said:


> Overall I agree with you in the sense that if eventually this is what BYB become, the breed overall would be far better if for it. That BYB do the 4 core health clearances and maybe even the DNA tests like pra, icth, and NCL. You're always going to have the show breeders and Donna getting titled, but for the average Joe looking for a golden, it would be much better if the BYB breedings offered a dog with a much better chance at being healthy.
> 
> I think getting to that point is going to take a huge hurculean effort and a major shift from the current breeder's that spend the huge dollars getting dogs titled. I'm not sure that will ever fully happen, maybe by a few like yourself that's seeing it differently and are willing.


This is a good point. There are people who cannot or will not spend over 1K for a puppy. But who also for whatever reason, don't want to adopt a rescue/shelter dog. They want to know the temperament and health of the parents, they want to know the environment the puppy was whelped/raised in, etc. Those are reasonable things to want, and they don't often happen in a rescue situation. For them, what are their options? A dog from a back yard breeder who has clearances on the parents, who has dogs with good temperaments, good health, etc is their best option. No, the dog won't look the same as a show dog, but for them, that doesn't matter. Maybe we'd have a lot less genetically and behaviorally messed up dogs who end up in rescue if more mid tier, back yard breeder options like this were available. People could go there, instead of ending up with a puppy mill dog.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

ktgrok said:


> A dog from a back yard breeder who has clearances on the parents, who has dogs with good temperaments, good health, etc is their best option. No, the dog won't look the same as a show dog, but for them, that doesn't matter. Maybe we'd have a lot less genetically and behaviorally messed up dogs who end up in rescue if more mid tier, back yard breeder options like this were available. *People could go there, instead of ending up with a puppy mill dog*.


Quick question, where do you think backyard breeders get their dogs (for breeding) from? 

Keep in mind that the type of breeders who would be referred to as backyard breeder - are not even mid tier. 

Mid tier breeders would be those who are excellent breeders whose dogs are show quality and very typey even though they are not titled. The breeders may casually show or maintain connections to breed clubs, and they have access to nice stud dogs through networking and also from their own lines - and this is why they are able to maintain a certain look and style of golden. 

Mid tier breeders are also those little known breeders who are getting titles on their dogs, including infrequent champion titles. Because they are not putting CH titles on every dog and may limit the number of dogs they own and breed, they are not like those much bigger known-name breeders out there who always have dogs being shown to championships and also have 1-2 dogs being campaigned + and/or might be resting on laurels of past owned/bred dogs who are SDHF dogs. 

One of the reasons why I objected to somebody designating "B grade" or whatever breeders was because it created the impression that if a breeder is not putting titles on her dogs or all her dogs, then she shares much in common with a backyard breeder. That's rude and incorrect. It's putting too much emphasis on breeding dogs based on what's on paper (titles) and not putting enough emphasis on what all should be there in a dog and what a breeder should be focused/working on. 

There are a lot of breeders out there who are doing everything according to the COE, are GRCA members, are members or even officers of local breed clubs, volunteer and work at shows and trials alike, and even though they've been in the breed for 30+ years, they still have a ring of mentors or close friends who are mentors who keep them honest and clear-sighted about what they breed.

And by the way, all these breeders who are protective and careful about what they breed are putting limited registration on all puppies they produce - except for very minimal situations. For some, the only exceptions would be for themselves and the stud owners. 

Somebody wanting to set up and begin breeding dogs without forming any connections in the breed is very unlikely to get a dog from a good breeder. 

That is why many backyard bred dogs are higher risks. It's not just looks or to be more exact, structure. It's also the fact that you don't know at all what's behind the dogs. 

A lot of goldens who end up in shelters come from backyard breeders. They did NOT come directly from puppy mills. They generally are dogs purchased from somebody selling puppies in the newspaper. Because the breeders sell to anyone and do not have any arrangement to take the dogs back if things go wrong, those dogs might get flipped around on craigslist or hoobly or end up in shelters. 

^^^ These comments have nothing to do with the OP who we have to take at his word as to the responsibilities that his family takes serious while breeding their dogs. He said they get clearances on their bitches, though he was confusing on the details re whether the studs have full clearances (it sounded like they do not). 

These comments have to do with making sure people understand that the difference between a "BYB" and a good breeder isn't just looks and titles. Among else, that's very disrespectful of a huge chunk of the quality breeders in the breed.


----------



## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

IamNotaRobot said:


> ...For those of you who have jumped to conclusions about me, or anyone else you label, you have proven my point.
> 
> *We actively participate in our local dog training club, our dogs have their CGC*, I will not go through the list and try to defend us, because that is beside my point.
> 
> The main reason we choose not to participate in the show circles is becuase of the people......


I feel like we're not getting all of the facts. Why didn't you tell us you were long time members of your local training club and all your dogs are at least trained for basic pet obedience? This kind of thing does make a difference toward showing you are part of a community doing things with your dogs besides pumping out puppies to make money. Did you mention this to any of the people you approached about breeding? I have to wonder if all of the people you have met were mean to you because of the way you went about this. I just have a hard time believing that you emailed people and told them your bitch has all COE clearances and you're a 10 year member of your training club and you'd like information about their stud as you'd like to breed her to keep a puppy and sell the rest on limited registration to pet homes.

I just doesn't make sense that you've contacted a dozen or more people and every one of them has been a jerk to you. If the main reason you choose not compete in show circles is because of the people, how are you participating members of a training club? I have belonged to Charlotte Dog Training Club for 10 years and our training club has every single kind of dog person you can imagine. Those snooty show people like to train their dogs for other things too and you really can't tell them apart from the pet owners when you're in class together on Wednesday evenings. I honestly think you're being as unfair to others as you are accusing everyone of being to you.


----------



## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I don't think it is necessarily titles, certainly not CH, that determines a tier... sometimes a bitch's best use is in the whelping box for whatever reason, maybe she is an ideal dog but is small, or large, or whatever. And honestly, I do not think there is a single reason not to get a CD on a dog, ever, it is not a hard accomplishment really... but I do get that some people have ring fear or whatever keeping them from titling their breeding dogs. I'd personally rather see a CD than an Int CH... but titles do open doors for bitch owners, no question. 
But I do think that what can determine tiers is knowledge and an accurate eye for a dog. We all love our dogs, but when we don't know where they depart from the Standard, we can't make good choices. That knowledge is nearly impossible to gain without competition or at least observation of competition over time. And the stud dogs that are available to a connected person are better almost always... especially since if one only goes to one show every two years and buys a catalog, that's the whole shebang as far as knowing what's out there. Does the non-connected person even know about Anney's dog to make inquiry? No. So the connections one can make being involved help on the stud dog choices. The non-connected person doesn't know about the things that hide in pedigrees, either...sometimes even their own pedigree! As I said to someone here who'd gotten a BYB puppy not too long ago- 'you know more now about your pup's pedigree than the breeder does' because we did a bunch of research for that person. Knowledge and a good eye- those are what make or break a breeder's produce imo.


----------



## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

nolefan said:


> I feel like we're not getting all of the facts. Why didn't you tell us you were long time members of your local training club and all your dogs are at least trained for basic pet obedience? This kind of thing does make a difference toward showing you are part of a community doing things with your dogs besides pumping out puppies to make money. Did you mention this to any of the people you approached about breeding? I have to wonder if all of the people you have met were mean to you because of the way you went about this. I just have a hard time believing that you emailed people and told them your bitch has all COE clearances and you're a 10 year member of your training club and you'd like information about their stud as you'd like to breed her to keep a puppy and sell the rest on limited registration to pet homes.
> 
> I just doesn't make sense that you've contacted a dozen or more people and every one of them has been a jerk to you. If the main reason you choose not compete in show circles is because of the people, how are you participating members of a training club? I have belonged to Charlotte Dog Training Club for 10 years and our training club has every single kind of dog person you can imagine. Those snooty show people like to train their dogs for other things too and you really can't tell them apart from the pet owners when you're in class together on Wednesday evenings. I honestly think you're being as unfair to others as you are accusing everyone of being to you.


I too wondered why we didn't hear that piece (the long time member and CGC thing) but I too wonder why OP hasn't told us his state of residence, so we could make some suggestions, but I have wondered what the point of the OP was if they didn't want suggestions on how to remedy his choices.. unless it was to complain that no one would cover his girls so therefore it is another thing GRCA is doing to cause a split in the breed? Companion dogs are not lacking a need for correct structure, things that any breeder should be aiming for.


----------



## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Maggie'sVoice said:


> it would be much better if the BYB breedings offered a dog with a much better chance at being healthy.
> 
> I think getting to that point is going to take a huge hurculean effort and a major shift from the current breeder's that spend the huge dollars getting dogs titled. I'm not sure that will ever fully happen, maybe by a few like yourself that's seeing it differently and are willing.


It is probably my mindset but I don't get the huge $$'s part- I don't think anyone has been talking about CH a dog- titles aren't just a CH, they are anything that says a dog has partnered w a human and been trained to do something. Around here, a JH costs $600 a month and a CD the same. Those are short time investments, and as I pointed out earlier in this thread, maybe a 6 month investment. So, $3600 and if puppies are $2k each, well, that's two puppies to make a major improvement in one's dogs and connections. Now, if someone is breeding for income, and not for the betterment of the breed or their own line's improvement, then that says something.


----------



## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

Prism Goldens said:


> It is probably my mindset but I don't get the huge $$'s part- I don't think anyone has been talking about CH a dog- titles aren't just a CH, they are anything that says a dog has partnered w a human and been trained to do something. Around here, a JH costs $600 a month and a CD the same. Those are short time investments, and as I pointed out earlier in this thread, maybe a 6 month investment. So, $3600 and if puppies are $2k each, well, that's two puppies to make a major improvement in one's dogs and connections. Now, if someone is breeding for income, and not for the betterment of the breed or their own line's improvement, then that says something.


To fully title a dog can take $10k-$30k. I'm just saying that there will still be people who spend that to title their dogs the same as they are now. I'm not just saying a CD or JH. Of course you can spend much less and for people that were talking about, a BYB, the CD is the least they should be doing.


----------



## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

Prism Goldens said:


> I too wondered why we didn't hear that piece (the long time member and CGC thing) but I too wonder why OP hasn't told us his state of residence, so we could make some suggestions, but I have wondered what the point of the OP was if they didn't want suggestions on how to remedy his choices.. unless it was to complain that no one would cover his girls so therefore it is another thing GRCA is doing to cause a split in the breed? Companion dogs are not lacking a need for correct structure, things that any breeder should be aiming for.


Agreed, it seemed like that's what the op wanted, help understanding why they were having a hard time getting show studs to breed their dogs to and what to do to help that happen in the future.


----------



## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Maggie'sVoice said:


> To fully title a dog can take $10k-$30k. I'm just saying that there will still be people who spend that to title their dogs the same as they are now. I'm not just saying a CD or JH. Of course you can spend much less and for people that were talking about, a BYB, the CD is the least they should be doing.


exactly- the CD is the least they should be doing... and I honestly do not believe anyone who has clearances would get turned down that much, unless they would not agree to sell on limited, or not sell by newspaper, or something like that that stud dog owners care about. And if they had a CD or JH, as well as clearances, I cannot believe they would not have their pick of stud dogs if they would sell on limited. But I am obviously missing something. A CH - yes- it can cost a boatload of money, especially if the dog's not correct in some way. And I find girls harder to finish than boys (prob because the girls are overall more correct right now imo)... so yes, it can cost a lot. But what does a person spend puppy money on if not the dogs?


----------



## Maggie'sVoice (Apr 4, 2018)

Prism Goldens said:


> exactly- the CD is the least they should be doing... and I honestly do not believe anyone who has clearances would get turned down that much, unless they would not agree to sell on limited, or not sell by newspaper, or something like that that stud dog owners care about. And if they had a CD or JH, as well as clearances, I cannot believe they would not have their pick of stud dogs if they would sell on limited. But I am obviously missing something. A CH - yes- it can cost a boatload of money, especially if the dog's not correct in some way. And I find girls harder to finish than boys (prob because the girls are overall more correct right now imo)... so yes, it can cost a lot. But what does a person spend puppy money on if not the dogs?


I agree that selling on limited registration is vital. Anyone that is professing to be reputable and for the breed should not be allowing anyone with an AKC registered dog to just go and breed with any other dog. At that point, what's the point of doing the clearances and selective breeding if you're just going to let the next dogs of that pedigree to wreck the pedigree going forward.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Prism Goldens said:


> A CH - yes- it can cost a boatload of money, especially if the dog's not correct in some way. And I find girls harder to finish than boys (prob because the girls are overall more correct right now imo)... so yes, it can cost a lot. But what does a person spend puppy money on if not the dogs?


Robin - can you account for why the $15K number is thrown around so much? 

I've always wondered because most people I've watched finish their dogs over the past 5 years (and there's me, still trying! LOL) - they have done so with minimal showing compared to like say campaigning a dog. 

Showing to a championship might take 5-20 shows and paying maybe $100-200 per show for a handler? That's not even close to $10K. 

Even showing a LOT MORE than that myself in the number of years I've had my dog out there - I've not spent anywhere near that number. 

What am I missing?????


----------



## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Even 10-15 years ago people said $1k a point.. so I dk. It can cost a lot, or be so fast it's nothing almost. 
Cheapest CH I have ever made was also the one that took the longest, but my daughter showed him and was in HS so just by virtue of school it was a long time. Fastest was 3-4 weekends. Most expensive was probably $10-12k but that was a bitch. Plus that bitch hated showing, it was probably stupid to invest that in her given she could have finished much faster if she'd even once looked like she was enjoying herself! I've also finished bitches in pretty quick time, like 5 weekends. Both ends of the spectrum equally deserving, but sometimes the competition is better, or maybe a run of judges who all like blondes (most of mine are dark) or who knows. I have a friend in Atlanta who seriously spent $40k finishing her girl though so maybe it's just an averaging (which still doesn't explain why the thousand a point has been being used for easily 15 years or so) I doubt most CHs cost a thousand a point. Or maybe if you added in all the hotels and driving and the cost of the dog in the first place, maybe.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> Plus that bitch hated showing, it was probably stupid to invest that in her given she could have finished much faster if she'd even once looked like she was enjoying herself!


That sounds like my boy... >.< 

In his case, he has stubborn phases he goes through where he will stand very nice until the judge is looking and then he's dancing in place and sticking his nose in the air to avoid being baited... 

I see him moving around the yard or stacking at home when he is competing with his son for attention. And he shows his butt off at home... LOL. 

But anyway... other than people boarding dogs with handlers, I just couldn't figure out where they were spending all their money if the dogs finish with minimal showing.


----------



## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Prism Goldens said:


> I doubt most CHs cost a thousand a point. Or maybe if you added in all the hotels and driving and the cost of the dog in the first place, maybe.


Hell yeah that's how it's an estimate of $1000 a point! 
One weekend = $60 entry fees, $160 hotel, $100 gas, $100 food, there's $500. That's pinching pennies. And you got third in Open both days.


----------



## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

K9-Design said:


> Hell yeah that's how it's an estimate of 1000 a point!
> One weekend = 60 entry fees, 160 hotel, 100 gas, 100 food, there's 500. That's pinching pennies. And you got third in Open both days.


^^^Why I try not to travel for shows/trials if I can at all help it. If you're doing Rally, the entry fees for QQQs are the largest expense. But at least if you're doing Rally you probably came away with Q ribbons to make it seem more worth it. I won't make the same statement about Obedience if you're in the upper levels. 

I hope it doesn't cost 1K a point for the new baby - especially since I don't travel (with the exception of the National last year, but I got to stay in the RV with my breeder for free).


----------



## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

As a stud dog owner, every breeding to which I agree is important to me. It seems so easy from a distance- like oh just say yes. However, so much know-how and effort goes into certain kinds of breedings, and it often requires taking days off from work or staying home from a show or driving the 3 hour round trip to the repro vet when 6 Rally classes are scheduled to be taught ( I own a dog training center) etc.,and working collaboratively with someone previously unknown on a personal level. Because I don't know you, and you are going to raise pups fathered by the heart dog who sleeps in my bed, is my partner in therapy work and obedience, and was a top 20 specialty winning show dog in his heyday, I need you to be "in network", known by someone who can vouch for your kindness to the babies and responsibility in raising and placing them. It's so much more than the breeding- it is the next 12 years of these beautiful little lives. You may know you are caring and responsible, but since you cut yourself off from participating with others, it is hard for me to know that when you inquire. Trust but verify. How can I verify? 

One of my dogs is an outstanding sire and one is moderate and lovely in temperament, with a pedigree to which certain people are drawn. They get many , many requests. Because of this, I really measure in my mind if we can make the deep commitment needed given the 7 day a week job I have running a busy training center and caring for 6 goldens, plus doing therapy work and showing. We have to commit to letting the bitch's progesterone call the shots, and it creates a multiplicity of unknowns about time/ days etc. Besides that, I often say no to titled bitches I truly love if the calendar is too crazy bc every bitch owner deserves 1000 percent focus from the stud dog owner. 

All of this is to say, if someone is working in goldens with their sleeves rolled up: getting CCAs, Rally titles, JH, and they will work with me on placing pups on a contract with which I feel safe, I might work with them if they are in my area or mentored by someone else I know. But as a "cold call" out of the blue inquiry, I couldn't say yes.


----------



## Loriaaa (Jul 14, 2018)

*Health!*

As someone who loves Golden’s but only keeps them for pets, please do anything you can to ensure their health and longevity. We just lost our 2.5 year old golden to seizures and IMHA and she was registered! When I brought it up to the breeder she only discussed having the dogs eyes looked at and never brought up her responsibility for genetic testing. You owe it to the dog lovers giving you their money for a dog they will love to ensure the healthiest possible puppies. If you can’t find a sire with the genetic testing done, maybe you should pay for it to ensure health or stop breeding until you can find a healthy tested sire.

Piper 11-15-2016 to 5-16-2019


----------



## ziggy3339 (Oct 31, 2012)

Thank you. On this forum I’ve experienced breeders who say awful things (not even true) about other breeders.
So take the critiques lightly ...they boast of their credentials and vast knowledge but I’ve learned over the past many years,
Many have vested interests and while you’d think they’d be loving, laid back, calm ...like the dogs. But no, that’s not always the case.
I bought my dog (after 4 years on this forum , where I was taught to be afraid of all these awful boogie man breeders, etc. 
If what you’re doing is working and your dogs are having a great life with lots of human playing and love and you LOVE it then don’t worry about it. Give them well sourced organic food, time and focus on supplying them with happy qualified owners. You’re fine, just fine. Be happy ? that you’re lucky enough to have the energy and resources to give so much back to the world.


----------



## ziggy3339 (Oct 31, 2012)

*Why test only the males*



Loriaaa said:


> As someone who loves Golden’s but only keeps them for pets, please do anything you can to ensure their health and longevity. We just lost our 2.5 year old golden to seizures and IMHA and she was registered! When I brought it up to the breeder she only discussed having the dogs eyes looked at and never brought up her responsibility for genetic testing. You owe it to the dog lovers giving you their money for a dog they will love to ensure the healthiest possible puppies. If you can’t find a sire with the genetic testing done, maybe you should pay for it to ensure health or stop breeding until you can find a healthy tested sire.
> 
> Piper 11-15-2016 to 5-16-2019


Maybe misunderstanding...test only the sire (males) genetically? Why is that? The breeder gave me paperwork on my dogs family tree...but genetic testing for health ..where do I get that?


----------



## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

ziggy3339 said:


> Maybe misunderstanding...test only the sire (males) genetically? Why is that? The breeder gave me paperwork on my dogs family tree...but genetic testing for health ..where do I get that?


I believe the person you are quoting means, if OP cannot find health tested sires, then OP has the option of paying to have the sire health tested so they know if they want to use them. 

In regards to your last sentence, you have a list of your dog's family tree. You should be able to find the health clearances of the parents online at ofa.org. If you want to post (or PM) the registered names, I'd be happy to look it up (or if you post it, someone can get to it before me.)


----------



## ceegee (Mar 26, 2015)

ziggy3339 said:


> Maybe misunderstanding...test only the sire (males) genetically? Why is that? The breeder gave me paperwork on my dogs family tree...but genetic testing for health ..where do I get that?



Kennel club (e.g. AKC) codes of ethics require Goldens that are used for breeding to be tested for the core genetic problems - i.e. the problems that may be inherited by the puppies. In Goldens, these are problems relating to hips and elbows (dysplasia), heart and eyes (some inherited conditions can cause blindness). Many breeders also test for other conditions such as ichthyosis, NCL, etc. All good breeders without exception will test for these conditions. Assuming your pup came from a good breeder, you will either have been given copies of the paperwork for the four core tests, or the results will be available online on the OFA website, under your dog's registered name. If your dog has a K9 data page, you should find links to the health clearances there.


If, by family tree, you mean that you have a copy of your dog's pedigree, you can look up his ancestors on the "K9 Data" site or on the OFA site, using their registered names and registration numbers.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

ziggy3339 said:


> Thank you. On this forum I’ve experienced breeders who say awful things (not even true) about other breeders.
> So take the critiques lightly ...they boast of their credentials and vast knowledge but I’ve learned over the past many years,
> Many have vested interests and while you’d think they’d be loving, laid back, calm ...like the dogs. But no, that’s not always the case.


Hey, you just accused people of being dishonest and untruthful in their responses to regular people making nervous (in some cases) inquiries about really poor breeders in most cases. 

Most people, including myself, do not say what we really think about some of these breeders and the dogs themselves, including some of the puppies that people have ended up with.

The stuff people do comment on - it's all black and white facts about clearances and what breeders are doing.

Me personally - I'd point out a little extra when people keep the dogs like goats or meat cows. They are outside, covered with bugs, matted, filthy, and just not loved by the breeder/owners. I remember one breeder from the upper west coast that somebody inquired about who had literal pictures of dogs as I just described - and puppy buyers were still inquiring about them asking if they were legit.  A lot of people don't know enough sometimes to realize what a very bad situation is until somebody points it out. 

The clearance and selectiveness with breeding - that's something that comes up because people are charging quite a lot for puppies who are not worth that much. 

As far as vested interests - what on earth do you even mean? Other than being very involved with this breed and protective - mind you, most of us are NOT recommending breeders other than pushing people to check referrals. The forum does not encourage people helping others find good breeders + most of us do not want our friends names thrown around on a public forum. Overbreeding is a huge issue in other breeds and leads to more dogs in shelters and rescues. I see the UTTER DISASTER that is the lab breed with all the aggressive BYB dogs ending up in shelters and being killed left and right because they are unadoptable - a lot of that is caused by everyone breeding their labs and selling to anyone. You could imagine that would never happen with a golden retriever, but aggression does run in certain lines (there is a old wives thing about the red heads out there having a harder temperament) and bottom line if people don't speak up when it's appropriate to stop some dog farmer from breeding dogs who should not be bred or sold for high prices or whatnot.... that's pretty bad. 

Might add - it's usually telling when people end up buying a poorly bred dog because it was cheaper and the buyer sold to anyone... and all pictures stop after puppyhood.


----------



## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

I am sorry that you lost your dog so young, but am unsure there is a DNA test for either of the issues you mentioned. 

I am in the process of completing clearances for 1 of my dogs and here is what is available for OFA - exclusive of eyes which I still need to do 



Loriaaa said:


> As someone who loves Golden’s but only keeps them for pets, please do anything you can to ensure their health and longevity. We just lost our 2.5 year old golden to seizures and IMHA and she was registered! When I brought it up to the breeder she only discussed having the dogs eyes looked at and never brought up her responsibility for genetic testing. You owe it to the dog lovers giving you their money for a dog they will love to ensure the healthiest possible puppies. If you can’t find a sire with the genetic testing done, maybe you should pay for it to ensure health or stop breeding until you can find a healthy tested sire.
> 
> Piper 11-15-2016 to 5-16-2019


----------



## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

ArkansasGold said:


> ^^^Why I try not to travel for shows/trials if I can at all help it. If you're doing Rally, the entry fees for QQQs are the largest expense. But at least if you're doing Rally you probably came away with Q ribbons to make it seem more worth it. I won't make the same statement about Obedience if you're in the upper levels.
> 
> I hope it doesn't cost 1K a point for the new baby - especially since I don't travel (with the exception of the National last year, but I got to stay in the RV with my breeder for free).


If you want to finish a CH golden, you're going to have to travel or you're going to have to pay a handler big bucks or your going to have to get really lucky going to the occasional local show for five years in a row.


----------



## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

K9-Design said:


> If you want to finish a CH golden, you're going to have to travel or you're going to have to pay a handler big bucks or your going to have to get really lucky going to the occasional local show for five years in a row.


One of the reasons I don’t have any interest in conformation. I just can’t travel like that. I couldn’t part with my dog that long either.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

K9-Design said:


> If you want to finish a CH golden, you're going to have to travel or you're going to have to pay a handler big bucks or your going to have to get really lucky going to the occasional local show for five years in a row.


She's in a pretty central location though there in OH... might not have to travel too far.... lots of shows in MI, OH, PA, and IN...

I guess the bigger issue that I've heard of is the two reasons to travel further out is to catch up with decent judges (breeder judges, etc) + you can go somewhere you don't have to beat as many dogs for majors....

Have heard the same thing for obedience OTCH's. It's people saying that traveling out of the midwest would help get some of the wins/placements needed to qualify...


----------



## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Megora said:


> Have heard the same thing for obedience OTCH's. It's people saying that traveling out of the midwest would help get some of the wins/placements needed to qualify...


I have heard that about obedience too but doesn’t every area have their big guns?


----------



## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

K9-Design said:


> If you want to finish a CH golden, you're going to have to travel or you're going to have to pay a handler big bucks or your going to have to get really lucky going to the occasional local show for five years in a row.


That's why I said "try". lol But like Kate said, there are tons of local shows, both small and big within an hour and a half of Columbus. Then there's shows in Cinci, Louisville, Lexington, Indianapolis, Pittsburgh, Michigan, etc. that are less than 3 or 4 hours away and there are people here that I can travel with to lower the cost a bit. Thankfully a lot of the big name handlers in the South don't make it up here and CaBo usually only comes this far east toward the end of the year. I will be able to show in 6-9 in at least 5 shows this fall if I want to and not drive much more than an hour. <<Not that I'm guaranteed to get any points, but at least there's opportunity. Next year, I'll be able to go to the Columbus, Cinci, and Cleveland/Pittsburgh specialties in addition to the all-breed clusters. 

BONUS: The Ohio GRC clubs are trying REALLY hard to get the 2021 National to be here in Ohio. 

There will be exceptions to the not traveling thing, I just personally can't do it for every show. 

About the OTCH thing: The Midwest/Great Lakes area has been called "the Obedience Belt" because Obedience is a lot more popular here and there are a lot more clubs than in other areas of the country. The competition at my local club is TOUGH (and it's mostly Goldens). So if you're chasing an OTCH, but you're not getting 198+ every time, you better go somewhere else to get those points. The catch with that is that you need to win at a big show to get enough points or it will take you FOREVER to get to 100 points. Although the new rule giving you 1 point for every score = 197+ will help, but you still have to get those wins. But yes, there are big names in almost every region, but there are less in other regions than where I am.


----------



## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

BE IT HEREBY RESOLVED that the Cuyahoga Valley Golden Retriever Club be approved to host the 2021 GRCA National Specialty to be held September 19 through September 29, 2021. 


Volunteer- even if you do not live in the area or belong to CVGRC.... because it takes a serious army to pull this off...


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Yippppeeee!


----------



## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

YESSSS!!!!! I'm SO excited for the National to be close to me. I have absolutely no doubt that members of the Columbus and Cincinnati clubs will be volunteering to help.


----------



## Jessjack (Aug 11, 2019)

*Keep looking for that great sire!*

So interesting to read the comments to your post. It sounds like you have been doing a good job with your clearances. You are experienced and eager to improve your line. Keep looking for that stud dog. I suspect that some of the ruder comments have been from people who have a lot less experience in Goldens than you do, so don't take the bad comments to heart. There are very few perfect dogs in any breed. You just have to breed your best bitches to the best dogs you can find - then hope for the best. 

My husband and I have owned Goldens all our lives, mostly for hunting, but also for showing. When we were kids in the 50's, the big red dogs were often the conformation winners. Show dogs have changed a lot over the years, and will probably keep doing so.

The dog in the picture you posted has some very nice qualities. I hope you found a few gems in the comments that will help you in your search. 

Showing dogs in conformation is not for everyone. Goldens are very competitive and it is very expensive to finish a dog. I have known people in dogs who have actually gone bankrupt and lost their homes because of campaigning show dogs. It sounds like you have a more realistic idea of what kind of a breeder you want to be. 

However, going to dog shows is a great way to learn. if you have an all-breed dog club near you, you might consider joining. Clubs like this who put on shows are a great way to learn about the various breeds and they are always looking for people who are willing to volunteer at the shows in many ways. You will have a chance to meet lots of nice people and shake your head at the weird ones. Before we retired I used to steward a lot at our shows. It is not a difficult job and you will start out by working with an experienced steward. Mostly you distribute arm bands, call the dogs into the ring, help the judges as requested (not with the actual judging!) and make sure the ring is kept in order and the judging goes smoothly. There is plenty of time to observe the dogs in the ring and develop your "eye for the dog." I have learned so much about my own breeds and many other breeds over the years. Stewarding was the most helpful thing for me to learn movement and structure. Plus you usually get a great free lunch! I am sure you already know what you like in a Golden, since you already have a lot of experience.

Speaking of movement and structure, I have noticed that there are a lot of incorrect fronts in Goldens being shown these days. 
More to the point I recently read on the GRCA site an article about the lack of diversity in Goldens that may result in a smaller gene pool which may lead to more health problems. Perhaps more outcrosses to worthy dogs that do not share too many top sires in common will be needed to maintain health in our dogs.

Well, good luck to you. I am sure you will find a great dog add to your breeding program.


----------



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> Speaking of movement and structure, I have noticed that there are a lot of incorrect fronts in Goldens being shown these days.


But that does not mean there are correct fronts elsewhere or the correct fronts on other dogs make those dogs suitable to breed to if there's other things that are very bad about the dogs.

Roached backs
High rears
Long crazy tails 
Long too long hocks
Soft coats 
Rears too long to set the dog up properly
Straight fronts - straighter than conformation dogs
Narrow fronts
Short necks
Long ewe necks
Slab slides
too long bodies
too short bodies
Curly open coats
Single coats
Bitchy heads on males
Coats that are too dark 
Narrow heads - particularly resembling setter heads more than golden heads
Incorrect bites
Incorrect temperaments 
Dogs taller or shorter than breed standard - this may include adult male dogs over 100 pounds or less than 50 pounds.

^^^ And I could go on and on.  All these things are not necessarily in the same dog each time. There is no perfect dog in the show ring. But absolutely, dogs NOT BRED for conformation may have even more problems - including multiple faults that are difficult to get past if you are looking to improve your breeding program OR permit your dog to be bred to dogs of the same quality or better. 

I have a ton of respect for some of the old people in the breed, but age and experience are not helpful if you spend all your time outside the ring griping about what you think you see. And what you believe is gospel in the breed standard based on what other people have said and echoed.

I have heard people rave about a dog being so correct and gorgeous.... just because the dog resembled their own dogs. This is related to being kennel blind. It's not being able to see faults in their own dogs or dogs similar.


----------



## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Jessjack said:


> So interesting to read the comments to your post. It sounds like you have been doing a good job with your clearances. You are experienced and eager to improve your line. Keep looking for that stud dog. I suspect that some of the ruder comments have been from people who have a lot less experience in Goldens than you do, so don't take the bad comments to heart. There are very few perfect dogs in any breed. You just have to breed your best bitches to the best dogs you can find - then hope for the best.
> 
> My husband and I have owned Goldens all our lives, mostly for hunting, but also for showing. When we were kids in the 50's, the big red dogs were often the conformation winners. Show dogs have changed a lot over the years, and will probably keep doing so.
> 
> ...


I think there are tons of issues in the breed,but not all in one dog, of course, as was just stated. The breed is better (healthier) now imo than it was back then, I was in Goldens 'back then' too.. and I think a lot of what appears to be new issue is really no one spent money on diagnostics then. 
This poster wanted someone to take a chance on his bitches genes and his breeding program when he is not involved in dogs past breeding them. No stud dog owner is going to do that unless they are also on their way out of dogs and simply do not care who they cover anymore.
This is a quote from earlier in the thread that said that much better than I did:
"You want to benefit and presumably profit off of the years of hard work and money spent proving that these stud dogs have the mental and physical traits of a correct Golden (that is exactly what people are doing when they compete with their Goldens in Hunt Tests or Obedience Trials or show in conformation, prove their mental and physical correctness) but you are offended that they don't want to risk watering down all their efforts by producing puppies with your bitch's extremely risky DNA? "

I don't think anyone was rude to him. I do think those that posted were realistic and in being so, pointed out the flaw in his whiney post about no one trusting his program. It is his first generation with clearances if I recall correctly, and he's been breeding for generations. So not a feel-good, trust him sort of scenario.


----------



## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I totally agree with Prism's post above. I just saw this thread and read through it. Interestingly, even though I've been in the breed about a decade, I still to this day, when inquiring about a stud dog where I don't know the owner but one of my mentors/friends knows them, I ask for an introduction from the mentor/friend. I don't expect people to trust me when they don't know me. Why should they? Most people in the breed have been burned in one way or another at some point. And I certainly wouldn't expect someone to trust me if I had been breeding for many years but this was my first generation with health clearances. 


BTW, I also work full time, have a school aged child, and have other non-dog responsibilities - but I still am active within the breed. I'm the president of my local golden club and help at events when my schedule permits. You make time for things you want to make time for. The reality is that if you are not active in doing anything with your dogs besides breeding them then that is your choice, but people with stud dogs don't have to allow you to use their boys to profit off of their hard work. I have to say, if you contacted me to use one of my boys under those circumstances, I would be kind, but would turn you down.


----------

