# Considering Purina Pro Plan



## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

If your dogs are doing well on the Canidae why change it?


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## uhmanda00 (Aug 3, 2008)

The new formula has been giving them gas, it is more expensive & keeps going up, & I don't want to be feeding them something that is "trendy"... if it is. I don't know if this is true, but I have heard that with holistic foods, dogs sometimes get too much protein which can lead to pancreas, kidney, and eventually liver failure.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

I've had Pro-Plan for one week and all I can say about it so far is that Lucky seems to enjoy it and he's had no adverse effects. Its alot more expensive then what I had before....but I plan to keep him on it for at least a year.

Regarding Canidae, too bad they changed the formula on you. That must of been disappointing.


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## uhmanda00 (Aug 3, 2008)

Lucky's mom said:


> I've had Pro-Plan for one week and all I can say about it so far is that Lucky seems to enjoy it and he's had no adverse effects. Its alot more expensive then what I had before....but I plan to keep him on it for at least a year.
> 
> Regarding Canidae, too bad they changed the formula on you. That must of been disappointing.


Good to hear! Which formula are you using?

See, this switch would actually be cheaper for me:
Canidae- $36 for 35lbs
Pro Plan- $27 for 37.5lbs


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Lucky likes Chicken flavors, so I get the Chicken and rice weight-loss formula. He still has a few pounds to loose....

I was using Iam's before....Pro-Plan is quite a bit more.


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

uhmanda00 said:


> I don't know if this is true, but I have heard that with holistic foods, dogs sometimes get too much protein which can lead to pancreas, kidney, and eventually liver failure.


Well, you can see if that is true for yourself by looking on the companies' web sites and comparing the protein percentages of different foods. Canidae, Innova, Eagle Pack, regular Wellness, Nature's Variety Prairie, and many other high-quality brands have similar protein percentages to Pro Plan and most other foods, except that the primary protein source is meat instead of corn gluten meal and poultry by-product meal. There is chicken in Pro Plan, which does put it above most other brands you'd find in Petsmart, but since most of its weight is water, it's not actually the primary protein source in the food. About the only difference between Pro Plan and Pro Plan Selects is that the Selects leaves out the by-product meal (and probably costs more).


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## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

I used to feed ProPlan and my dog did well on it. I fed it as it was the Breeders reccomendation. I know many people who feed their show dogs ProPlan they look wonderful. ProPlan here is much more expensive then in the US for the same price I can get what I consider to be better food. I tried ProPlan a few months ago on my current dogs (it was about 5 years ago when a started that dog on it as reccomended by the breeder). I saw many negitive changes, their breath was horrible, they were always ichy and scratching (Kali), and gained quite a bit of weight when fed their normal amount. It works great for some just not so well for mine. Just depends on the dog


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## uhmanda00 (Aug 3, 2008)

Thank you! That was good information! :]


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## Golden Penny (Aug 14, 2008)

uhmanda00 said:


> Good to hear! Which formula are you using?
> 
> See, this switch would actually be cheaper for me:
> Canidae- $36 for 35lbs
> Pro Plan- $27 for 37.5lbs


I don't know a thing about Pro Plan, but I'm curious, the price is cheaper, but would you have to feed them more of it?


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## goblue (May 29, 2008)

I have been using ProPlan Chicken and Rice Adult formula for a couple of weeks now. I switched from Candiae because it is hard to find here and I changed because so many breeders use it here on the forum and they just ramp and rave that their coats are the best and no ear or skin problems. Many of the breeders have been using it for years and that is why I changed. My puppies love it and so far no issues.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

I have fed ProPlan for years. I use Performance for the dogs that are being shown, and regular Adult Chicken & Rice for the rest. I wean puppies on Puppy Chicken and Rice and they stay on it until between 4-6 months old, at which time I switch them to Performance. I feed _less _of the ProPlan than I did any other foods. I have never experienced any adverse issues (gas, bad breath, excessive or loose stools, etc) in either dogs that I have bred, purchased from different lines, or switched over to ProPlan if in for boarding or training. My coats are better on ProPlan than on other foods, I don't have any skin problems or ear infections, and as I've stated before, over heatlh and longevity is excellent. 
Feed whatever your dog does best on, but remember, you should allow a minimum of 3 months to be able to make a fair assessment as to how a particular food is working.


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## uhmanda00 (Aug 3, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> I have fed ProPlan for years. I use Performance for the dogs that are being shown, and regular Adult Chicken & Rice for the rest. I wean puppies on Puppy Chicken and Rice and they stay on it until between 4-6 months old, at which time I switch them to Performance. I feed _less _of the ProPlan than I did any other foods. I have never experienced any adverse issues (gas, bad breath, excessive or loose stools, etc) in either dogs that I have bred, purchased from different lines, or switched over to ProPlan if in for boarding or training. My coats are better on ProPlan than on other foods, I don't have any skin problems or ear infections, and as I've stated before, over heatlh and longevity is excellent.
> Feed whatever your dog does best on, but remember, you should allow a minimum of 3 months to be able to make a fair assessment as to how a particular food is working.


So the Performance food isn't necessarily for "high energy/sporting" dogs? I thought it was, because the fat seems pretty high. What are the benefits of the Performance vs. the Chicken & Rice?? Also, do you use any coat supplements? Thank you!


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## uhmanda00 (Aug 3, 2008)

Golden Penny said:


> I don't know a thing about Pro Plan, but I'm curious, the price is cheaper, but would you have to feed them more of it?


According to the recommendations for a 50lbs dog:

Canidae- 2 cups
Pro Plan Chicken & Rice- 2.5 cups


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## sharlin (Feb 26, 2007)

Over 90% of the comments I've heard about ProPlan are all positive. Plus their Rally To Rescue program is a real boon to Rescues that apply.


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

Like I always say every dog is different..... Maggie wont touch any Purina products, Hooties coat went very dull(no shine) and dry and he was itchy, eating it, Abbie and Cruiser did ok on it, there coasts were a little dry, But I didnt want to buy all different foods...The Purina here for a 40lb bag is 40 something dollars which is what I pay for the Canidae.


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## Golden Penny (Aug 14, 2008)

uhmanda00 said:


> According to the recommendations for a 50lbs dog:
> 
> Canidae- 2 cups
> Pro Plan Chicken & Rice- 2.5 cups


Thanks, I was looking for that on the Purina site and couldn't find it.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

uhmanda00 said:


> So the Performance food isn't necessarily for "high energy/sporting" dogs? I thought it was, because the fat seems pretty high. What are the benefits of the Performance vs. the Chicken & Rice?? Also, do you use any coat supplements? Thank you!


 
It is, and that is why I use it in my dogs that are being shown - their activity level is higher/they undergo the stresses of traveling and competing, and training. I use regular Adult for the dogs who are no longer being shown. 
I supplement with Nature's Farmacy Digestive Enhancer probiotics. And I use Coat Booster if I need to really grow coat quickly.


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## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

I have been using it for 30 years. I just really believe in the studying that they have done. THey have ben studying dogs longer than most of these other companies have been in business. But ultimately it comes down to what your dog thrives on.


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## Hausberg_Kids (Aug 15, 2008)

I am so confused about food choices. I have been reading dogfoodanalysis.com for about 4 months now since we brought home our pup. I went with Canidae because of its high rating. I checked the rating on Pro Plan and most of them are only a 2 and in the review it says would not recommend. Wouldn't this suggest that it is not a quality food? If it is a good food then I could get it here in Germany and stop paying to have food shipped to me, but I was concerned about the rating.


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## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

Hausberg_Kids said:


> I am so confused about food choices. I have been reading dogfoodanalysis.com for about 4 months now since we brought home our pup. I went with Canidae because of its high rating. I checked the rating on Pro Plan and most of them are only a 2 and in the review it says would not recommend. Wouldn't this suggest that it is not a quality food? If it is a good food then I could get it here in Germany and stop paying to have food shipped to me, but I was concerned about the rating.


No it would suggestion just as in other food sites the more cooperation (money, sponsorship etc) you get the ratings you pay for. Plus they usually all have their bias toward any food with any amount of corn.


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## uhmanda00 (Aug 3, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> ...........And I use Coat Booster if I need to really grow coat quickly.


I recently learned that if Fish Oil Capsules are given, then A or E should also be given. Is this true with Coat Booster, also??

Thanks for the information about the Performance formula, too!!

TheHooch:

Thank you! That is awesome!


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Hausberg_Kids said:


> I am so confused about food choices. I have been reading dogfoodanalysis.com for about 4 months now since we brought home our pup. I went with Canidae because of its high rating. I checked the rating on Pro Plan and most of them are only a 2 and in the review it says would not recommend. Wouldn't this suggest that it is not a quality food? If it is a good food then I could get it here in Germany and stop paying to have food shipped to me, but I was concerned about the rating.


I think its what you feel comfortable with. The dogfoodanalysis site holds no credibility with me. I don't agree with their train of thought, I don't think they are experts of dog nutrition and I don't agree with their philosophy. 

Also, I don't have a mistrust of commercial companies, I'm not Holistic oriented, and I value the research commercial companies do. 


But that is my opinion..... for others its a strong and useful tool and I don't respect people less for following their advice. I think its very important to purchase from companies you feel comfortable with.


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## SunGold (Feb 27, 2007)

Golden Penny said:


> I don't know a thing about Pro Plan, but I'm curious, the price is cheaper, but would you have to feed them more of it?


I switched from Innova to ProPlan Chicken & Rice... I feed the same amount, maybe a bit less. My dogs are doing very well on it.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> It is, and that is why I use it in my dogs that are being shown - their activity level is higher/they undergo the stresses of traveling and competing, and training. I use regular Adult for the dogs who are no longer being shown.
> I supplement with Nature's Farmacy Digestive Enhancer probiotics. And I use Coat Booster if I need to really grow coat quickly.


PG, what is coat booster?


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Lucky's mom said:


> I think its what you feel comfortable with. The dogfoodanalysis site holds no credibility with me. I don't agree with their train of thought, I don't think they are experts of dog nutrition and I don't agree with their philosophy.
> 
> Also, I don't have a mistrust of commercial companies, I'm not Holistic oriented, and I value the research commercial companies do.
> 
> ...


This is what my (great) vet says too. He says stay with the hefty research of the Pro Plan or Eukanuba and beware claims not stemmimg from real live animal tests. I feed Canidae, but also may swtch to Pro Plan.


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## tsdairy (Dec 9, 2007)

I feed Purina ProPlan and they love it, do very well!


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## AmyinAr (Feb 26, 2008)

I feed Canidae ALS, go with what works for you, but I wanted to dispel the 'trendy' thing, I don't think it's trendy, I think it is really (or was until recently) the most affordable and most readily available 'high quality' (however you define it, I like dogfoodanalysis as I have no desire to feed corn or fillers) food. I think you will see a wider variety of these foods with the price increase and formula change. If I were to switch, I would go to California Natural.


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## AmyinAr (Feb 26, 2008)

Lucky's mom said:


> I think its what you feel comfortable with. The dogfoodanalysis site holds no credibility with me. I don't agree with their train of thought, I don't think they are experts of dog nutrition and I don't agree with their philosophy.
> 
> Also, I don't have a mistrust of commercial companies, I'm not Holistic oriented, and I value the research commercial companies do.
> 
> ...


I totally respect your distrust of the site, I find it useful however and I was wondering what about their train of thought and philosophy you disagree with ... I was reading what I assume to be the best summary of it and would really like to know your opinion ... the more ya know ya know!  

from dogfoodanalysis.com

"*How do we assess the foods?*

Choosing a good dry pet food isn’t that easy. If you’ve ever read the ingredient label on a pet food, you’ll notice that there is one crucial bit of information missing: how much of each ingredient is in the food. That really is crucial information. As we’ve already noted, most dry pet foods are based on grains or other plant material. But the animals we’re feeding them to are carnivores and should be eating a diet that is mainly made up of meat…

You’ll see the crude fat and crude protein content of the food listed on the labelling, but that alone does not tell us very much. Grains contain protein too – but it’s far less bioavailable protein for a carnivore that lacks the digestive enzymes needed to digest plants. Protein derived from meat represents a far higher quality and species-appropriate diet for a carnivore than plant proteins ever can be. What’s the point of a protein if it cannot be properly digested?

Fortunately, it is possible to make an educated guess as to the quality of a pet food. Until or unless the percentages of the ingredients are required to be shown on the ingredient lists or manufacturers disclose that information voluntarily, it can only ever be an educated guess or assessment, based on the knowledge that we do have. But that is far better than relying on the advertising hype.

*What we look for in pet foods:*

Meat, meat and more meat products. Cats and dogs are carnivores, and a species appropriate diet for these animals must be based on meat. They have no evolved need of carbohydrates in their diet. Grains are in pet food because they’re cheaper than meat products, and are needed to hold the kibble bits together. Not because they’re species-appropriate nutrition for a carnivorous mammal.

Meat and fat products that are identified by species. If the species cannot be identified, neither can the quality. We suggest avoiding any products that use unidentified “meat”, “animal” or “poultry” products in their foods.

Where grains are used, we look for good quality whole grains. Avoid those products that make prolific use of grain fragments (think floor sweepings) in their foods – these are nutritionless fillers.

Whole fruits and vegetables are appreciated, especially where these replace grains in the foods.

Organic ingredients are appreciated – but note above about the need for a food to contain a high proportion of meat. Organic grains are very nice where grains must be used, but they are no substitute for meat content.

*What we avoid:*

Foods containing any form of by-products, most especially those of indeterminate origin (“animal”, “poultry”, etc). 

Artificial colours, flavours, sweeteners or preservatives – especially those believed to be carcinogenic or that are banned from use in the human food chain. In dog food, principally these are BHT, BHA, Ethoxyquin, Propyl Gallate. NOTE: Some ingredients, usually fish products, may contain artificial preservatives that are not disclosed on the ingredient list; if they are not added by the manufacturer, they are not required to be listed. We therefore look for assurances by manufacturers using ocean fish products that their foods do NOT contain any artificial preservatives.

Meats and fats that are not identified by species. These could literally be anything, and are almost certainly of very low quality.


*Practices and ingredients to be aware of:*

Splitting

Splitting is a common practice on dog food labels and it pays to be aware. Ingredients in dog food are listed in order of their weight – so the heaviest ingredients, those that make up the largest portion of the food, are listed first. 

Splitting is when a manufacturer lists different components of the same ingredient as separate items. For example, chicken and chicken meal are both chicken products. Brown rice, white rice, rice, rice bran, rice gluten and rice flour are all parts of the same ingredient – rice. Yes, there is a difference in the nutritional aspects of the different forms of rice – brown rice is more nutritious than white rice, and grain fragments are far lower quality and less nutritious than whole grains. But the issue around splitting is in determining quantity.

The reason for the practice of “splitting” is essentially to make the ingredient list look better. As an example, when there are large quantities of rice in the food, a manufacturer might choose to list the component parts separately. That way, although the total rice products may make up, say, 55% of the food and meat only 25%, it is possible to list the meat product first and then three or four individual rice products that each separately weigh less than the meat product. Combined, however, rice makes up more than double the chicken content.

Manufacturers don’t disclose the quantity of ingredients on the labelling though. So you have to make the best assessment you can from the rest of the information given. Thus, while seeing the component parts of rice (or any other ingredient) is useful for determining the quality of ingredients used, when you’re trying to assess quantity you should always mentally add those component parts together.

Splitting can also serve to increase the level of confidence one has in the quantity of particular ingredients used. When you see two forms of the same meat ingredient, chicken for example, at the head of an ingredient list that can help you come to the reasonable conclusion that there is indeed a reasonable amount of chicken in the food.

The ingredient “chicken” means fresh chicken which is inclusive of its water content. Now water content is of course removed in the process of making dry dog food. It is thus likely that the true position of that ingredient (sans water) should be much further down the ingredient list than is stated. But if that were the first ingredient in a food, and the next ingredient is “chicken meal” then the practice of splitting can tell us that there was sufficient chicken meal in the food for it to be rated ahead of the first grain despite a portion of the ingredient split off. This serves to increase our confidence that the true first ingredient is that named – a form of chicken (meat product).

Be careful though  That would not necessarily be the case if the grains behind it were also split, or if there are a lot of different grain products in the food."


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## Heidi36oh (Feb 27, 2007)

Mine are on Pro Plan and never had a problem, they love it and their coats are shiny and healthy.


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## T&T (Feb 28, 2008)

AmyinAr said:


> ... The ingredient “chicken” means fresh chicken which is inclusive of its water content. Now water content is of course removed in the process of making dry dog food. It is thus likely that the true position of that ingredient (sans water) should be much further down the ingredient list than is stated. But if that were the first ingredient in a food, and the next ingredient is “chicken meal” then the practice of splitting can tell us that there was sufficient chicken meal in the food for it to be rated ahead of the first grain despite a portion of the ingredient split off. This serves to increase our confidence that the true first ingredient is that named – a form of chicken (meat product)...


EAGLE PACK ON *MEAT VS MEAL*
(SCROLL DOWN TO "_*We don't dilute our meat ingredients with water*" _

http://www.eaglepack.com/Pages/HS_Meats.html


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

AmyinAr said:


> I totally respect your distrust of the site, I find it useful however and I was wondering what about their train of thought and philosophy you disagree with ... I was reading what I assume to be the best summary of it and would really like to know your opinion ... the more ya know ya know!
> 
> from dogfoodanalysis.com
> 
> ...


Well...first I and many "experts" (everybody's an expert ya know) don't view dogs as Carnivores. Cats are. Dogs aren't. Carbonhydrates are important and most all Holistic and Non-Holistic know carbonhydrates are necessary....its just a matter if it comes from potatos, barley or Corn. 

I don't think they truely understand the ingredients. They don't understand what corn glutin is for instance. They know it is a by-product of making corn syrup....but they don't know _what it actually is and what its used for_. 

To them it has "no nutrional value"...simply because its a by product of something else. That in itself is pretty bad. I don't like Corn Glutin either, but geeze.....at least I know its pure protein when mixed with meat is a complete source of protien that is entirely usable. But they see it as a "filler" of no nutrional value simply because it is a by-product. This line of thinking goes with Beet Pulp. Its a by-product and that makes it bad....doesn't matter if its beneficial or not. 


In short I believe they are more into "dog equality" and "dog rights" and idealogy then good ingredients. If we can't eat by-products then by gosh dogs shouldn't have to either. 

They use meaningless scare mongering words like "fillers". The truth of the matter is that if a "filler" is subtracted from the ingredient list then the company would have to "fill in" with something else. Corn is considered a filler....so the "good" companies use potatos, or barley or oats. Terms like "filler" are meant to evoke emotion not logic and I don't trust entities who use it. 

As far as the preservatives....I personally don't want mold in my bag of dog food but I can understand people wanting to veer from that type of thing. 

And I can understand people who might want to feed their dogs only what they would eat. One reason I fed Lucky Innova was because the ingredient list made my mouth water, so I can understand that priority. And this site is good for directing people towards those foods but I don't believe they have the knowlege or expertise tear down and rebuild ingredient lists.


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

The Performance is about the same price as Canidae. I also know a lot of Golden people who use it....and their dogs do great on it. But they also compete in Field Trials etc. They need the fat.

Pro Plan should be just fine as long as you don't have a dog with allergies to the wheat or corn. If you do start having ear infections, skin/coat problems, or digestive issues, you might have to go back to a wheat/corn/soy free type food. 

Try and see how you like it......and if it works, that's good!



> As far as the preservatives....I personally don't want mold in my bag of dog food but I can understand people wanting to veer from that type of thing.


Hopefully, the preservatives used (natural mixed-tocopherals) would keep the mold out of the food. I'd prefer Vitamin E to chemicals.

The largest dog food recall until the "gluten thing" was due to mold in the grains used to make the food. I believe it was in the CORN that Diamond had received, and then processed into dog food. The mold created aflatoxins.....which is not something you want in dog food, or any food.

http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/NEWS/2005/NEW01290.html


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

*As an aside...*

Purina Parent Club Partnership (PPCP) Program








Members of Purina Pro Club whose national parent club participates in the Purina Parent Club Partnership (PPCP) Program may earn funding for canine health studies, education and/or rescue efforts that will benefit their breed. Since 2002, the first year of the PPCP program, there has been more then $710,000 generated for health research, education or rescue. As of 2005, there are 149 National breed clubs participating in the program.

Through the PPCP Program, Purina and the AKC Canine Health Foundation work together to help parent clubs address priority health concerns for their breeds and areas not previously funded.

Here's how the PPCP Program works: Pro Club members redeem weight circles from bags of participating Purina brand dog foods. Purina tracks these weight circle submissions, and for every $100 of qualifying weight circle points earned by Pro Club members, Purina donates $10 to the participating national parent breed club.

Points are accumulated throughout a calendar year, and in February, a check representing 10 percent of the value of the submitted weight circles for the year is evenly split between the participating national parent breed club and the AKC Canine Health Foundation. The donation that goes to the AKC Canine Health Foundation is eligible to be matched up to 100 percent by the Canine Health Foundation if it meets the Foundation's funding guidelines.

The goal of Purina and the AKC Canine Health Foundation is to provide funding and resources to help breed clubs accomplish more in learning the causes of health conditions that may shorten a dog's life. Ultimately, the knowledge gained from canine health studies may help dogs live longer, healthier lives.


From the GRCA:
As of 12/31/07 the Golden Retriever Club of America, Inc. had 2,975 members declared for the Purina Parent Club Partnership Program. From January 1, 2007 through December 31, 2007, 802 members submitted weight circles resulting in a total of $ 17,655.29 for the 2007 Program. We are ahead of 2006 and participating members have increased. Let's see if we can increase this for 2008! Please remember to submit your weight circles by December 31, 2008!


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## AmyinAr (Feb 26, 2008)

Thanks Lucky's Mom! Good things to think about, I'm happy with where the site has led me but I never want to trust a source blindly ...


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## Lynnberger (Aug 12, 2008)

I think PPP is one of the better widely available foods. If I were stuck on Mars and HAD to feed "pet food" I'd probably go with them, as most likely they'd be marketing on Mars. And now Sandra is probably picking herself off the floor, as I'm a confirmed "food snob."

But I'm not into food "ratings." I don't think you can point to any food and compare it point for point against another, as if any one food was better than another for _all_ dogs. Dogfoodanalysis is at least open about what makes a food "better" in their eyes than another, but it can still be confusing I think, for newbies who are trying to do their best by their dogs.

I think it's best to find the _best possible_ feeding method for your individual dog. I have many friends who have working farm dogs. They've gradually realized that the "cheap" foods are not so cheap when they have to add fats, protein sources, and treat their dogs for various skin ailments or worse. There's very few dogs who you can really say are getting _optimal_ nutrition from such foods. 

But above that level it's all fuzzy. I don't like _any commercial food_, personally, from Purina to raw mixes homemade in Grandma's kitchen. But that's a personal thing and a decision I've made, to sacrifice the convenience to optimum control over what my dogs eat.


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## tintallie (May 31, 2006)

It doesn't matter what the rating is because if it's kibble, my dog will have diarrhea.

All I can say is that you feed what works for your dog, but keep in mind that it may not work for someone else's dog.


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## uhmanda00 (Aug 3, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> Purina Parent Club Partnership (PPCP) Program
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Last night, I filled out the Purina Pro Club form online. I was impressed when I came across the Partnership Program Page. Ofcourse, I chose for my weight circles to go to the GRCA. I am getting more excited about feeding Purina Pro Plan. Infact, I realized at work yesterday that I was looking at the wrong price, and with my discount I will pay $25 for a 37.5lbs bag of Chicken & Rice. 

PointGold, I noticed the part you wrote about how the circles are accumulated through a calendar year. Were you talking about the money they donate, or were you talking about how members of Pro Club have to start over with their circles? Can circles from November carry over to February? Thanks for all your help!


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## Lynnberger (Aug 12, 2008)

Double post, sorry - noob alert.


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## Lynnberger (Aug 12, 2008)

> In short I believe they are more into "dog equality" and "dog rights" and idealogy then good ingredients. If we can't eat by-products then by gosh dogs shouldn't have to either.


Weeeeeeellll, I am not sure about that. As I said I'm not hip to 100% of what they say, but I think their motives are to provide a clear dividing line for those who want to feed that way (ie, if I don't eat it then my dogs shouldn't either). The problem is, that there are not many sources out there that DO offer this kind of information. AAFCO can't be trusted, for sure - they are in the pockets of the big name pet food makers. FDA is iffy too (I speak as someone who's dealt with them from the livestock angle also). Who do you believe? The best answer, I think, is to educate yourself. Don't just trust one website, but look at the same ingredient and see whether the information you are getting jives across the board.

Corn gluten meal, for instance. I happen to agree with the assessment, as a general rule, that it is a "cheap filler." Not always! I'll explain that in a second.

"Filler" to me means it's been put in to reduce costs. Corn's not as cheap as it used to be, but compared to meat products! CGM raises protein levels, very simply. It decreases the value of the protein, however, because it's low in certain essential amino acids. These might be supplemented in a superior product to make up for the imbalance created (check for lysine, for instance, in the ingredient list). 

This isn't conjecture. The NRC details the amino acid requirements for a dog, and meat fulfills them completely, while corn falls short (compare the amino acid profile of any meat with corn on nutritiondata.com).

So when I see CGM in a food, especially pretty high on the ingredient list, I worry that corners might have been cut in other places too. Corn gluten meal is much, much higher in protein than meat so if it's close to the meat ingredients, the protein percentage that comes from CGM is way too high. I want to know if there's some reason for choosing CGM instead of meat.

However, *supplementing protein levels with a vegetable protein source isn't always bad.* Some dogs need to reduce their exposure to the higher mineral content of meat-based proteins (ash levels). So you'll see it in specialty foods. This is also why corn gluten meal is used many times in dry cat food.

Once you've informed yourself of the full implications of various ingredients and why the food companies choose them, it's just a personal matter of your comfort level. For me, after the craziness with the wheat and rice protein products, I avoid any vegetable protein product now.

As to other by products and fractions, it just depends. I'm a control freak, so I view with distrust these products because every time they are processed a bit more, that represents one more step where contamination can occur. I also wonder, again, about the motives of using a fraction or by product where whole products are certainly healthier - every time one includes such products, one has to play games with the ingredients to balance everything. 

I know this because I make my own dog's food. If I use whole potatoes, I get vitamin C and lots of potassium. If I used just the peel, I'd lose a good many calories and eend up with more fiber. If I take the peel off, I lose the C and most of the potassium. If I use white (dehulled) rice versus brown, I have to include manganese in my supplement mix. If I use just the hulls, I'll have to get kcals from some other ingredient, and I won't be able to include much because bran is very high in fiber. If I use boneless meat, I have to add calcium. And so on. 

I make these choices for good reasons, to accommodate the needs of that particular dog, but why is a giant food company making those choices? Is it to meet some special nutritional need or to increase the profit margin? Trying to figure that out is part of being an educated consumer.


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## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

uhmanda00 said:


> Were you talking about the money they donate, or were you talking about how members of Pro Club have to start over with their circles? Can circles from November carry over to February? Thanks for all your help!


The circles are good anytime. You can send them in once a year or monthly however you wish. It really is a great program that I am proud to be associated with.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

Lynnberger said:


> Corn gluten meal, for instance. I happen to agree with the assessment, as a general rule, that it is a "cheap filler."


I can accept and agree with a statement like "Corn glutin is a lower quality protein source. A protien source purely from meat is a better choice."

I guess my point is that I don't think they even knew/know that. Someone who rates ingredients ought to understand them.

It is my opinion that took their information from another very popular website...that also didn't understand what it was. And that is the extent of their Canine Nutrition education.


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## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

I think everyone should feed what works but no one will ever convince me that corn gluten meal, corn bran, beef tallow poultry by-product meal, animal digest and fat, and wheat is good dogs or anything really. Ecspecially all is one food.


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## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

Ash said:


> I think everyone should feed what works but no one will ever convince me that corn gluten meal, corn bran, beef tallow poultry by-product meal, animal digest and fat, and wheat is good dogs or anything really. Ecspecially all is one food.


I think I will stick with the research that has been going on longer than you and I have been alive,


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## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

What things are and what people say are often two diffrent things. Anyone can bend pro and cons to make this brand and that brand apprear better then another or the best.


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## Thor's Mom (Feb 25, 2007)

One interesting note, in the dog food scare/panic/recall as I recall, many "high end" foods were affected, but none of the purina products were affected.
As others have said, try it, if it works for you, great. If it doesn't try something else. Remember a gradual change is better on the digestion.


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## uhmanda00 (Aug 3, 2008)

Thor's Mom said:


> One interesting note, in the dog food scare/panic/recall as I recall, many "high end" foods were affected, but none of the purina products were affected.
> As others have said, try it, if it works for you, great. If it doesn't try something else. Remember a gradual change is better on the digestion.


That's encouraging. I definitely agree with you about transitioning dog food slowly. I bought 2 bags of canidae about a week ago... so I will finish the bag I'm on now, and then start transitioning with the last bag.

Thanks for everyone's help!! :]


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

I highly doubt the research shows that dogs do better eating corn gluten meal and poultry by-product meal than eating meat. Their research has determined the amounts of nutrients needed to keep a dog alive. Any of the smaller companies can come along, see the numbers that the larger companies determined, and make a food with higher-quality ingredients that is just as good at keeping dogs alive.

None of what I consider the "higher end" foods contain the ingredients that actually caused the most recent problems. Many companies put out warnings at the beginning until they narrowed down which ingredients were the problem (like recently when everyone stopped buying tomatoes for weeks before they found out the problem was jalapenos and the tomatoes were fine all along).


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I am mainly stressed out about dog food, not knowing what to believe. My last generation lived well into old age eating Eukanuba- but they did get hemangiosarcoma/osteosarcoma in their middle teens. Eukanuba used to seem like the gold standard to me twenty years ago, and I felt 100 percent confidence in it. Now, after reading/researching,I have fed Canidae ALS for two years, but I am uneasy. My vet stresses the importance of staying with companies who have conducted afco tests on real control groups of large dogs(?). Hooch sways me with his point about decades of research( and my trusted vet completely agrees with Hooch), but the common sense of fresh, natural ingredients with meat as a first ingredient does too. Cancer is my number one worry- preventing it with the best diet.


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## Wilson's REAL Mom (Nov 10, 2006)

This thread has come at a real good time for me. I just bought our first bag of the new Canidae formula. The 35# bag plus one little bag of treats came to $53. Plus, I have to drive about 45 miles to get it. It really hurts. I'm going to look some more into my alternatives. The fact that so many breeders that I trust (like Hootch) use ProPlan makes me much more likely to give it a try.


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## T&T (Feb 28, 2008)

Ljilly28 said:


> I am mainly stressed out about dog food, not knowing what to believe. My last generation lived well into old age eating Eukanuba- but they did get hemangiosarcoma/osteosarcoma in their middle teens. Eukanuba used to seem like the gold standard to me twenty years ago, and I felt 100 percent confidence in it. Now, after reading/researching,I have fed Canidae ALS for two years, but I am uneasy. My vet stresses the importance of staying with companies who have conducted afco tests on real control groups of large dogs(?). Hooch sways me with his point about decades of research( and my trusted vet completely agrees with Hooch), but the common sense of fresh, natural ingredients with meat as a first ingredient does too. Cancer is my number one worry- preventing it with the best diet.


*3 years, thousands of hours of "research", close to 500 emails/phone calls later ... I now know what I DON'T want in my dogs' bowls or on MY plate. AFCO tests & FDA don't mean much to me ... " FDA has delegated the responsibility of pet food regulation to AAFCO who admits it has no regulatory authority or enforcement capabilities ... " **http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=41665*

*I never fed PROPLAN, what are the ingredients of this formula everyone is talking about ?*
*I did eliminate PURINA from my list ... I did contact them a while back inquiring whether their corn (maize) is the genetically modified one ... **http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetically_modified_food** and was given the runaround ... the answer should be either YES or NO ... but I got a** MAYBE ... there is nothing more frustrating to me as a consumer. Because they know EXACTLY what ingredients go into their food. Anyways, I decided I'll pass on this "insect-killing gene bacteria inserted into the seed" stuff.*

This great lady has info on cancer worth reading.
I have witnessed "drastic diet changes" accompanied with natural supplements make a REAL difference with humans ... s/b no different with animals. 
*http://www.greatdanelady.com/articles/search.htm?cx=014920021679244401321%3Avjjma9qjveg&cof=FORID%3A9&q=CANCER&sa=Search#926*


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## tintallie (May 31, 2006)

T&T said:


> I have witnessed "drastic diet changes" accompanied with natural supplements make a REAL difference with humans ... s/b no different with animals.


DH used to eat fast food (McD's, KFC, etc) a LOT before we were dating and some of his food choices were pure crap. His complexion had a decent amount of pimples and it has always been oily. 

After getting used to eating better foods (slow, cooked foods using ingredients that you can actually read the label on), he finds the taste of fast food will upset his stomach much more easily now and it leaves a nasty after taste/oily film in his mouth. Also, his complexion has cleared up considerably. The one thing I noticed was that his parents think he is CALMER and he's been diagnosed with ADHD.


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## noblenewf (Jul 7, 2008)

uhmanda00 said:


> The new formula has been giving them gas, it is more expensive & keeps going up, & I don't want to be feeding them something that is "trendy"... if it is. I don't know if this is true, but I have heard that with holistic foods, dogs sometimes get too much protein which can lead to pancreas, kidney, and eventually liver failure.


I agree, if the Canidae works for your dog I would stick with it. There's a reason Canidae is more expensive...the ingredients are better than other brands. I have been feeding Canidae for several years and I would not consider it "trendy". It's a quality food and has quality ingredients, which in turn cost more. If I'm not mistaken, the holistic food leading to pancreas, liver and kidney failure thing you are talking about was told to you by your coworker who highly promotes Science Diet. I'm guessing promoting Science Diet means there's something in it for her. There are differing opinions about dog foods and different companies. I personally would not feed my dogs anything BUT a holistic, all natural food. And the ones mentioned (Innova, Eagle Pack Holistic, Wellness, Candiae, Nature's Variety) DO NOT have higher protein content than Science Diet, Pro Plan, Iams, etc. The percentages of protein are very similar. The only difference is the QUALITY of protein. Real meat instead of by-products (beaks, feathers, feet, bones, etc.). Whole fruits, vegetables and grains instead of corn and fillers. This subject could be debated for hours on end. It's a matter of what you want to put into your dog's system. Many breeders have great success on Pro Plan. If that's what works for their dogs then that's great. I've never had any experience with it so I can't say one way or the other if it's a good product. All I know is that after much research on dog food ingredients, how they are made and companies' values and standards of quality I would venture to believe that the holistic companies as mentioned above are producing higher quality products for our pets. The choice is yours but if I were you I wouldn't not believe something that someone told me just because they claim it to be fact. Do the research on your own and draw your own conclusion. If you are feeding Canidae now and haven't had any issues I wouldn't switch. It's a great food and the company exceeds most pet food companies in terms of honesty and business standards.
Just my opinion.

Some places to start:

dogfoodanalysis.com
dogfoodproject.com


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## noblenewf (Jul 7, 2008)

P.S. The reason many of the ultra premium holistic brands don't have as many "food trial" information is because they don't participate in animal testing. The Iams company as well as others participate in feeding trials that are often harmful to the animals involved. This too has been all over the news over the last several years and can also be found if you do a google search or go to the PETA website. I personally, would rather buy from a company that doesn't participate in feeding trials and would rather get my information about whether or not a product works by seeing the hundreds of customer testimonials to the health of their pets. I personally know several people that have fed Innova, Canidae and Solid Gold products for at least 10 years that have not had any health issues with their dogs. NONE....whatsoever. That to me is the best testament to a good food.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Call me blond, but I don't see how a dog food could possibly be produced and approved for feeding without first being tested on - dogs...  

I've not been shy about my being a ProPlan fan, and that I would stand my dogs' health, longevity, and beautiful coats up against any dog fed any food, but all this has me wondering if I switched to Canidae if they'd all of a sudden start speaking several languages fluently, painting masterpieces in oil, and healing the sick and infirm. :
(Won't say that about Solid Gold because I went there/did that/ and NEEDED the t-shirt to cover what happened to the coats and condition of my dogs.)


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## T&T (Feb 28, 2008)

noblenewf said:


> ... your coworker who highly promotes Science Diet. I'm guessing promoting Science Diet means there's something in it for her... quote]
> 
> *"Once in practice, vets who sell Science Diet and other premium foods directly from their offices pocket profits of as much as 40%"*
> 
> ...


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## noblenewf (Jul 7, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> Call me blond, but I don't see how a dog food could possibly be produced and approved for feeding without first being tested on - dogs...
> 
> I've not been shy about my being a ProPlan fan, and that I would stand my dogs' health, longevity, and beautiful coats up against any dog fed any food, but all this has me wondering if I switched to Canidae if they'd all of a sudden start speaking several languages fluently, painting masterpieces in oil, and healing the sick and infirm. :
> (Won't say that about Solid Gold because I went there/did that/ and NEEDED the t-shirt to cover what happened to the coats and condition of my dogs.)


PG- Sorry if I offended you. I did not mean to say that dogs fed Pro Plan cannot be healthy. I know it works well for several people on this forum, breeders included. Each dog is different and foods work differently for each of them. What works for some doesn't work for others. It's OK to disagree. I personally choose to feed my dogs a holistic food. I've had great success with it over the years. I don't want my dogs to be fed by-products, corn, wheat, soy or other grain fragments that lack nutrition. My dogs ARE fed a holistic product and they have glorious coats and have no health issues whatsoever (other than my Newf has HD but we all know the genetic component in that situation). Pro Plan works for you and that's fine...I personally just choose to feed my dogs something other than Purina, Iams, Science Diet products. That's my choice. I am not ridiculing those who don't do what I do...I just felt the need to defend holistic foods in a sense as I felt the "leading to pancreatic, liver and kidney failure" accusation was not evidence based. If someone can show me that evidence then maybe I would change my mind. But until then I will continue to feed my "trendy" holistic food. And, BTW, there ARE some horrible things that happens to those dogs involved in the feeding trials by such named companies. It's factual- whether we acknowledge it or not.


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

My old vets office has gotten away from Iams, Science diet, etc and are now stocking the "trendy" holistic foods on there shelves. So something is there since they wont be making a profit from SD and Iams....


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

noblenewf said:


> PG- Sorry if I offended you.


No offense taken! I think that it is refreshing to discuss this without actually being told that I am "murdering" my dogs because I feed the "evil kibble". (It's true - I've been told that.)

I just have to wonder how my dogs could possibly do any better than have on ProPlan. It would seem that they would have to become supernatural, because that would be the only thing that I could think of as better! :bigangel:

I very much appreciate that some dogs do wonderfully on one food and not another, and have always said feed what your dog does best on. And for me, it's not for lack of having tried one of the premier "holistic" foods, because I did. And not for a short time, but long enough to see them go from doing very well, and liking it, to seemingly overnight doing horribley, and no longer eating it enthusiastically. So from then on I vowed to never stray from my "if it ain't broke don't fix it" mantra. 

It's all good!


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## Cam's Mom (Apr 13, 2007)

> (Won't say that about Solid Gold because I went there/did that/ and NEEDED the t-shirt to cover what happened to the coats and condition of my dogs.)


Laura, this often happens when people switch to a better quality food. The toxins accumulated from the old food start getting flushed out, and can have disasterous effects initially. It improves quite quickly though. The more toxins the dogs been fed, the longer the recovery takes.

I've taken in enough rescues to have seen this happen many times.

AMny peol who witch to raw have a simialr experience. But, after a few months the improvements are really noticable.


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## Nutty's Mom (May 27, 2008)

This is kind of long... I had started reading through old posts on recommended foods the past few weeks since Hunter had been having such a bad time eating the Puppy Chow. I think he had diarrhea four or five weeks. It let up for about ten days when he was on the antibiotic from the vet but started up again once he was back on just kibble. I had been making rice and mixing with baby food and some of the puppy chow prior to the antibiotic and during the course of medicince. His coat started looking lackluster, it was feeling pretty wiry and there were a few spots that looked like the hair was falling out. Last week I decided to try the Purina Pro Plan Chicken and Rice. I figured that I would be switching him to an adult food soon anyhow (the vet suggested waiting on changing from Puppy Chow until we were ready to switch to adult that his stomach could be too sensitive) and I want both dogs to be on the same food. I was on vacation last week so I could keep an eye on both dogs for any changes. I started mixing the puppy chow and PPCR for Hunter and Nutty's current food with the PPCR - what a difference. In just a week that Hunter has been on the new food, the improvement in the condition of his coat is remarkable. His head is nice and soft and his coat is filling back out on his back. His bowel movements have been regular - one after each meal. This compared to having to go once an hour a few days before, I think he went about twelve times. I am knocking on wood as I type this, but so far I am very happy with the Pro Plan.


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

PG, did you start feeding ProPlan after becoming a conformation competitor/breeder, or did you ever feed it to a typical "pet" dog? (not given any supplements, bathed with cheap shampoo from Petsmart once every few months or when they start to smell too bad, perhaps not from the best breeding, etc). Your current dogs definitely have a LOT of things going for them other than their food.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Cam's Mom said:


> Laura, this often happens when people switch to a better quality food. The toxins accumulated from the old food start getting flushed out, and can have disasterous effects initially. It improves quite quickly though. The more toxins the dogs been fed, the longer the recovery takes.
> 
> I've taken in enough rescues to have seen this happen many times.
> 
> AMny peol who witch to raw have a simialr experience. But, after a few months the improvements are really noticable.


 
I'm not at all convinced of that premise. It seems to be a self-defeating theory - getting all the "toxins" out should not have disasterous effects. I have seen dogs fed junk, who when put on better food improved steadily with the real benefits most noticeable from about 3 months on. I have never seen a dog do worse. In the case of my dogs, it did not improve quickly. This was over the course of more than a year.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

katieanddusty said:


> PG, did you start feeding ProPlan after becoming a conformation competitor/breeder, or did you ever feed it to a typical "pet" dog? (not given any supplements, bathed with cheap shampoo from Petsmart once every few months or when they start to smell too bad, perhaps not from the best breeding, etc). Your current dogs definitely have a LOT of things going for them other than their food.


Thank you (I think ) but I put a lot of stock in nutrition. While I am bathing weekly the dogs that are shown, it's sometimes less than that for those who aren't. And other than occasionally giving Coat Booster (which may or may not work anyway...) I don't supplement with anything other than probiotics, and for many years I didn't even do that. When I started competing, I was feeding Iams. The dogs looked great then, but when I switched to ProPlan, the difference was huge. I have fed it to many "typical pet dogs". People who take my classes often ask me what I feed, and switch to ProPlan themselves - and these are mostly "typical pets" - people in my Puppy K and Obedience classes, with mixed breeds and rescues and some BYB purebreds. Those who I have followed up with have gotten the same results as I have in so far as skin and coats and general good health. And these are not folks who are bathing weekly or using supplements high priced products, and many have dogs that were bred under the worst of circumstances.


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## Romeo1 (Apr 19, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> I have fed ProPlan for years. I use Performance for the dogs that are being shown, and regular Adult Chicken & Rice for the rest. I wean puppies on Puppy Chicken and Rice and they stay on it until between 4-6 months old, at which time I switch them to Performance. I feed _less _of the ProPlan than I did any other foods. I have never experienced any adverse issues (gas, bad breath, excessive or loose stools, etc) in either dogs that I have bred, purchased from different lines, or switched over to ProPlan if in for boarding or training. My coats are better on ProPlan than on other foods, I don't have any skin problems or ear infections, and as I've stated before, over heatlh and longevity is excellent.
> Feed whatever your dog does best on, but remember, you should allow a minimum of 3 months to be able to make a fair assessment as to how a particular food is working.


Thanks for sharing this info. I've read your posts before and was already considering switching over before reading this thread. I've gone the gambit from Nutro to Wellness Core and now, at my vet's recommendation for allergies, am feeding Sci. Diet Prescription z/d. Now, though, I'm pretty convinced ProPlan is a decent food and I plan to buy it next. Thanks again...


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## Romeo1 (Apr 19, 2008)

Lucky's mom said:


> I think its what you feel comfortable with. The dogfoodanalysis site holds no credibility with me. I don't agree with their train of thought, I don't think they are experts of dog nutrition and I don't agree with their philosophy.
> 
> Also, I don't have a mistrust of commercial companies, I'm not Holistic oriented, and I value the research commercial companies do.
> 
> ...


I agree with you, LM. I often wondered who authors that dogfoodanalysis.com site and what's in it for them. After using Wellness Core, I was not that impressed and feel like I was sucked into a Holistic marketing ploy. I'm going to try ProPlan now.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Romeo said:


> Thanks for sharing this info. I've read your posts before and was already considering switching over before reading this thread. I've gone the gambit from Nutro to Wellness Core and now, at my vet's recommendation for allergies, am feeding Sci. Diet Prescription z/d. Now, though, I'm pretty convinced ProPlan is a decent food and I plan to buy it next. Thanks again...


You are welcome. I hope that you are as pleased with it as I have been.


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## T&T (Feb 28, 2008)

Someone has yet to convince me that "NATURAL" is not healthy !!!  
Today's diseases are man-created. 
A result of processed foods, man-created artificial substances & man's manipulation of nature.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Conversely, an awful lot of "natural" things are unhealthy, and some even deadly. :curtain:


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

T&T said:


> Someone has yet to convince me that "NATURAL" is not healthy !!!
> Today's diseases are man-created.
> A result of processed foods, man-created artificial substances & man's manipulation of nature.


Actually the more we manipulate nature the longer and better we live. Gosh if you went back 100 years you would see a whole different "natural" world where child mortality and early death was rampant. 

People get cancer more in my opinion...because they live long enough to get it. Probably same for dogs.


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## Heidi36oh (Feb 27, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> You are welcome. I hope that you are as pleased with it as I have been.


Gotta throw something in, mine are on Pro-Plan and today at the vet I got nothing but compliments on how good they looked and how shinny their coats are and of course there healthy. He said Jack being is in top shape (he was the only one that had a vet appointment) nice teeth, good eyes, gorgeous coat all around a healthy 3 year old Golden.


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

Like I always say what might be great for your dog and work well might not for others... All you can do is try it and give it some time.


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## T&T (Feb 28, 2008)

Lucky's mom said:


> ... if you went back 100 years you would see a whole different "natural" world where child mortality and early death was rampant.People get cancer more in my opinion...because they live long enough to get it. Probably same for dogs.


Longer life expectancy as a result of easier access to medical assistance & advances in medical knowledge. We have overcome yesterday's causes of mortality but are now creating new ones. We may live longer but are not "healthier" or we wouldn't be living on pills the way we do.


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## T&T (Feb 28, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> Conversely, an awful lot of "natural" things are unhealthy, and some even deadly. :curtain:


That's because of their misuse.

Prior to Proplan you must have tried many other brands/formulas. non organic/holistic, that did not work for you for various reasons. Even within Purina, I'm sure not all their formulas would be adequate for you !
It's just that the way you came across, at least to me, is that natural & holistic is not good or not worth it. If whatever holistic/organic food you've tried has not worked it's certainly not due to it's lack of by-products or artificial ingredients or GMO's etc !!! It just wasn't the right formula.


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## Fozzybear (Feb 27, 2008)

I must admit this thread and others has me thinking. I had originally fed our dogs Nutro Max for about 4 years. Then Bailey passed away this March very suddenly from Hemangio Sarcoma at age 8. My dad passed away from pancreatic cancer in 2002 and in the same year both of my sisters were diagnosed with Breast Cancer so I have had it up to you know where with Cancer. I am sick and tired of the “C” word and also a little more than scared. But I digress… After Bailey died I started looking into causes and as is usually the case kinda jumped on the first possible cause, his food. After more reflection and research, Cancer seems to be more prevalent in certain human family trees (and yes I am the only person in my family who hasn’t had it yet) why couldn’t that be the case in Canines? Using my family as an example, we certainly did not all eat the same foods or drink the same things. We all have very different tastes and likes so therefore I would assume that the Cancer would have a genetic makeup that may or may not be triggered by other environmental factors.

 Back to the food, when we switched to ALS Jake hated it at first but now eats it right up but I haven’t noticed any difference in his coat, or temperament. In fact if anything he seems to be a little more lethargic than before. Ace, our 8 month old, is also on ALS. We rescued him so I don’t know what he was on before but he is still awfully skinny after being on it for 3 months. He also does not exactly have the most solid of stools and with the switch to the new formula, we have some grass yellowing issues. Also with the new formula comes additional costs for a smaller bag and threfore to me less value. I would rather it not be the case but with the crummy economy in Michigan and the fact that I have been on 32 hours for the last 18 months, (at least I have a job), I have to start looking at the costs of everything. OK it took me 376 words to say I am thinking of switching to ProPlan or something similar. I would like to keep Ace and Jake on the same food, so at 8 months is it to early to switch to an Adult food? Also I have noticed there is a lot of talk of probiotics. What kind, how much, how often, etc…. is everyone using?


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## Groundhog (Jul 26, 2008)

I too have been looking at puppy/dog foods, trying to decide which is better for my "kids". That dog review site has me confused a bit too, why is it that so many of the so called low rated foods have more hits on them and the high rated ones low? I think it all comes down to economics, what can you afford?? Right now I am like FozzyBear, need something I can afford, but it good for my dogs. I thought I had made a choice until I read all the replies to this post. 

I now think I will give Pro Plan a try, I have had the oppportunity to dog sit two leader dogs while the owners go on vacations. Her Golden and Lab both ate their Pro Plan like they never saw food before, it actually scared me at first, I had never had a dog who ate like that! I have always had to coax and bribe my dogs to eat their meals, even went to can food, (which I can't afford anymore) but at least they ate for me. 

Now I have a 4 yrs old Lab and a 13 week old Golden, and the Golden is a picky eater and I need to find a good food he will actually eat. I have found very good information on this forum and thank God I did find it, it's been a great help for me with getting my first Golden puppy, which I love dearly! 

So I want to thank you all for helping me make a decision today.
Deb


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Fozzybear said:


> I must admit this thread and others has me thinking. I had originally fed our dogs Nutro Max for about 4 years. Then Bailey passed away this March very suddenly from Hemangio Sarcoma at age 8. My dad passed away from pancreatic cancer in 2002 and in the same year both of my sisters were diagnosed with Breast Cancer so I have had it up to you know where with Cancer. I am sick and tired of the “C” word and also a little more than scared. But I digress… After Bailey died I started looking into causes and as is usually the case kinda jumped on the first possible cause, his food. After more reflection and research, Cancer seems to be more prevalent in certain human family trees (and yes I am the only person in my family who hasn’t had it yet) why couldn’t that be the case in Canines? Using my family as an example, we certainly did not all eat the same foods or drink the same things. We all have very different tastes and likes so therefore I would assume that the Cancer would have a genetic makeup that may or may not be triggered by other environmental factors.
> 
> Back to the food, when we switched to ALS Jake hated it at first but now eats it right up but I haven’t noticed any difference in his coat, or temperament. In fact if anything he seems to be a little more lethargic than before. Ace, our 8 month old, is also on ALS. We rescued him so I don’t know what he was on before but he is still awfully skinny after being on it for 3 months. He also does not exactly have the most solid of stools and with the switch to the new formula, we have some grass yellowing issues. Also with the new formula comes additional costs for a smaller bag and threfore to me less value. I would rather it not be the case but with the crummy economy in Michigan and the fact that I have been on 32 hours for the last 18 months, (at least I have a job), I have to start looking at the costs of everything. OK it took me 376 words to say I am thinking of switching to ProPlan or something similar. I would like to keep Ace and Jake on the same food, so at 8 months is it to early to switch to an Adult food? Also I have noticed there is a lot of talk of probiotics. What kind, how much, how often, etc…. is everyone using?


As far as probiotics, I've been using the dogzymes digestive enhancer from natures farmacy ( found it thru PG). I've used other brands, but like the shelf life and price of this. I ordered a two pound can and, with 4 dogs, I think it should last 4-5 months.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

T&T said:


> That's because of their misuse.
> 
> Prior to Proplan you must have tried many other brands/formulas. non organic/holistic, that did not work for you for various reasons. Even within Purina, I'm sure not all their formulas would be adequate for you !
> It's just that the way you came across, at least to me, is that natural & holistic is not good or not worth it. If whatever holistic/organic food you've tried has not worked it's certainly not due to it's lack of by-products or artificial ingredients or GMO's etc !!! It just wasn't the right formula.


 
Actually, I didn't. I have never been one to change foods frequently. When I raced sled dogs, the kennel I ran out of fed Bench & Field, and that was it - I had no say in it. I fed my own dogs Iam, and before that had fed Kennel Biscuit for as long as I can remember, which used to be the food of choice of pro kennels in all venues. I've fed the following varieties of ProPlan with excellent results: Lamb & Rice (only for a very short time and switched only because of the concerns with lamb) Chicken & Rice (which I am using now in both Adult and Puppy ) Performance, and Weight Management. 
I decided to stay an extra day at a show, and "borrowed" some food from Phil and Amy Booth - it was ProPlan Sensitive Stomach mixed with Performance, but I didn't feed enough to actually count it... 

I have never said that holistic/organic food is not worth it at all. I DO think that it is "trendy", and I do see more of the holistic/organic and raw feeders telling those who feed otherwise that THEIR food is better and that what we feed is crap. And again, of the people that I personally know who feed holistic/organic, or raw, and whose dogs I am very familiar with, I have seen my own dogs look better, (coat & condition wise) have far less health issues, and definately live longer. I am NOT saying that as a blanket statement for all who feed this way, but it has been my experience with those I know. And the woman who told me I was "murdering my dogs by feeding them commercial kibble) lost 2 relatively young dosg to cancer within in a short period of time. 

So, ONE MORE TIME : feed what your dogs do best on! Just don't tell me that I am not doing the best for my dogs feeding what I am feeding, please.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Fozzybear said:


> I would like to keep Ace and Jake on the same food, so at 8 months is it to early to switch to an Adult food? Also I have noticed there is a lot of talk of probiotics. What kind, how much, how often, etc…. is everyone using?


I switch to Adult Formula between 4 and 6 months, so 8 months is not too early at all.

I use the Nature's Farmacy Digestive Enhacer probiotic. I like that it doesn't have to be refrigerated, like the FasTrak that I used to use. I believe the ingredients are better, as well. Follow directions as far as how much. I use it on every pm meal.


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## T&T (Feb 28, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> So, ONE MORE TIME : feed what your dogs do best on! Just don't tell me that I am not doing the best for my dogs feeding what I am feeding, please.


 
*RIGHT.*

*







*


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## Romeo1 (Apr 19, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> I've fed the following varieties of ProPlan with excellent results: Lamb & Rice (only for a very short time and switched only because of the concerns with lamb) Chicken & Rice (which I am using now in both Adult and Puppy ) Performance, and Weight Management.
> I decided to stay an extra day at a show, and "borrowed" some food from Phil and Amy Booth - it was ProPlan Sensitive Stomach mixed with Performance, but I didn't feed enough to actually count it...


Interesting. Please share your concerns on the lamb, because that is probably what I would choose, until I read this...

Thanks for all the info because you definitely made up my mind on the subject.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

noblenewf said:


> And, BTW, there ARE some horrible things that happens to those dogs involved in the feeding trials by such named companies. It's factual- whether we acknowledge it or not.


If the company does not do feeding trials, then the consumers(we) are doing feeding trials on our own dogs, arent we? I would love to see that 1000 large dogs lived past 13 eating a lifetime of Canidae. Then, I would relax. I am feeding Canidae now, but in a semi-nervous way.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Romeo said:


> Interesting. Please share your concerns on the lamb, because that is probably what I would choose, until I read this...
> 
> Thanks for all the info because you definitely made up my mind on the subject.


There were health issues relating to taurine deficiencies (particularly heart and eye problems) in dogs fed lamb based foods, as lamb is naturally low in taurine.

My dogs coats are better when fed chicken than they were on lamb, also.


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## historicprim (Nov 24, 2007)

Hi PG,

Question, is there anyway to supplement for the taurine deficincies? I just bought 4 bags 47.5 pounds each of the lamb and rice.


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## T&T (Feb 28, 2008)

Ljilly28 said:


> If the company does not do feeding trials, then the consumers(we) are doing feeding trials on our own dogs, arent we? I would love to see that 1000 large dogs lived past 13 eating a lifetime of Canidae. Then, I would relax. I am feeding Canidae now, but in a semi-nervous way.


CONCERNS ? 
PICKUP THE PHONE & CALL !!!
VISIT THEIR WEB SIGHT, EMAIL THEM !!!
I HAD QUESTIONED THEM VIA EMAIL ON THIS A WHILE BACK & THIS WAS THE REPLY. IF WANT TO KNOW MORE, SPEAK TO A SUPERVISOR. 
"SEMI-NERVOUS" IS NOT GOOD ! 
IT'S ABOUT YOUR DOGS & YOUR $ ... 
CONSUMERS HAVE THE RIGHT TO KNOW SO DON'T BE SHY ! 

"All Canidae and Felidae products meet or exceed all AAFCO Nutrient Profiles without a single animal being caged and tested for months on end. Our feeding protocols are preformed in loving homes of both ethical breeders and pet owners. All formulas are constantly checked and confirmed by a minimal of two separate nutritionists & PHD's confirming the latest in pet nutrition and health."


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

historicprim said:


> Hi PG,
> 
> Question, is there anyway to supplement for the taurine deficincies? I just bought 4 bags 47.5 pounds each of the lamb and rice.


It is my understanding, Peg, that taurine levels in the lamb foods have now been considered, and there would be no need to supplement. You could call ProPlan and talk to them if you are still concerned.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I'm interested in and grateful for this thread. I have been feeding Canidae, rotating in other foods like Wellness & Solid Gold from time to time, and adding fresh foods like organic chicken, carrots into my dogs' diets, hoping to do the best for them. Some research says to switch off foods, some says that's the worst thing and can create imbalances. I miss having trust in big names. I did feel 100 percent confident in Eukanuba for my first golden, Joplin's entire (lived to 15) life. Now taht they changed their formula, sold out to johnson&Johnson, and I have read about fillers, I have lost faith in them.



> Our feeding protocols are preformed in loving homes of both ethical breeders and pet owners. All formulas are constantly checked and confirmed by a minimal of two separate nutritionists & PHD's confirming the latest in pet nutrition and health."


That type of response is what makes me worry. It's just that lots of Canidae's language is very nonspecific and emotionally charged- how many breeders do they mean? 2 or 20,000? What do they mean by "ethical"- I feel more manipulated than reassured by the word. 

My vet, whom I do trust and who is ethical and well educated, is pretty passionate that feeding should be hard data as Hooch was saying and prefers Pro Plan/Eukanuba. He also argues against the idea of trying to reproduce what dogs would eat "naturally" bc he says a dogs "natural" life span is about a quarter of what we make it artificially. Finn's breeder wanted him on a raw diet- but my vet said if you dont feed it to a human baby, don't feed it to a puppy on the subject of raw chicken/raw eggs. I felt torn between them. Raleigh's breeder, whom I also trust, says the opposite of my vet and,along with Tally's breeder, stresses Canidae as the best middleground between good science and whole food ethos. The contrasting authorities are what make me crazy. 

In my own experience three of my four dogs at the bridge lived long, healthy lives eating Eukanuba. The fourth one died of cancer at 9- her father Twin Beau D's Montego Bay wasnt longlived either- so was it genetic or what I fed her or something else?My three goldens now look good on Canidae, but it really took a lot of readjusting not to feed them a standard large breed puppy food instead, and I am hoping it will not have been an error in judgment on my part but instead will help them with cancer-free, sounder futures.


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## Lucky's mom (Nov 4, 2005)

I may not positively understand this, but if the food meets nutrient profiles then no testing is needed because the nutrient profiles are created from earlier testing. Right?

And problems like the taurine issue is often found outside the testing....as when dogs start getting sick and data is sent in from vets.

Is this right?

So a holistic iwth a long track record in my opinon is just as "tested"

I think how it works is when a commercial company does research and finds out something new that isn't part of the previous profile, they would do actual food testing on dogs. The if that is successful, these profiles are generally accepted.


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## 3 goldens (Sep 30, 2005)

*for many years our dogs ate purina dogchow, very few scraps--large families do not have many ---and they were healthy, l long lived, active hunters. mine were on purina one when i switcvhed to TOTW. and n a year i saw no differecn in coat, poop, lessening of allergies for kaycee--of course her's were environmental. i can't say it made one iota difference in thier looks or health.*

*my grandmother grew up ad lived on her a farm and most of her life she drank mil straight from the cow, ate two eggs friedn in butter every monring plus severalpieces of bacon. her food was falvored with bacon drippingsl and she died 4 months short of hr 100th rithday. i know when i tel that someone usually tells me that their ucle Joe drank 12 cans of ber and smoked 3 packes of cigarettes a day and ate take out and lived to be 102...so it is a fluke and doens't mean a thing. only I know seval who lived lik that and live to a very ripe old age.*

*The thing is, i think the foo ad life style of some people just doesn't seem to matter--and with othrs it makes all athe difference in the world. and I think this also applies to dogs. If ther is a history of HD or other problem in their*
*family background , you don't want to get the puppy. My vet told me cancer runs in dog families. And it is now believed tht even blot can run in famiies. Studies at the university in Florida showed this.*

*So to me it is simple.... what works for one wll not work for another. Just because dog A does horrible on Purina or whatever does not mean dog B will, and vice versa, if dog A does great on Taste or the Wild or TimberWolf, etc, cdoes not mean dog B will. you have to find what works for your dog. *

*And I hae also come to the conclusion that it isn' t much the food causing the health problems in our dogs so much as over vax, flea & tick stuff, heartworm stuff (whih is a mut of cur) and plain old pollution. Back in the old days dogs got rabies and sometimes dietemper vax and that was it. You bought a powder and put on them when yu found fleas. they were not constantly dosedwith pills or stuff put on their backs and vax aganst 101 differnt diseaes. and i think it ha made a diference..and not for the better.*


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

noblenewf said:


> I agree, if the Canidae works for your dog I would stick with it. *There's a reason Canidae is more expensive...the ingredients are better than other brands.* I have been feeding Canidae for several years and I would not consider it "trendy". It's a quality food and has quality ingredients, which in turn cost more. If I'm not mistaken, the holistic food leading to pancreas, liver and kidney failure thing you are talking about was told to you by your coworker who highly promotes Science Diet. I'm guessing promoting Science Diet means there's something in it for her. There are differing opinions about dog foods and different companies. I personally would not feed my dogs anything BUT a holistic, all natural food. And the ones mentioned (Innova, Eagle Pack Holistic, Wellness, Candiae, Nature's Variety) DO NOT have higher protein content than Science Diet, Pro Plan, Iams, etc. The percentages of protein are very similar. The only difference is the QUALITY of protein. Real meat instead of by-products (beaks, feathers, feet, bones, etc.). Whole fruits, vegetables and grains instead of corn and fillers. This subject could be debated for hours on end. It's a matter of what you want to put into your dog's system. Many breeders have great success on Pro Plan. If that's what works for their dogs then that's great. I've never had any experience with it so I can't say one way or the other if it's a good product. All I know is that after much research on dog food ingredients, how they are made and companies' values and standards of quality I would venture to believe that the holistic companies as mentioned above are producing higher quality products for our pets. The choice is yours but if I were you I wouldn't not believe something that someone told me just because they claim it to be fact. Do the research on your own and draw your own conclusion. If you are feeding Canidae now and haven't had any issues I wouldn't switch. It's a great food and the company exceeds most pet food companies in terms of honesty and business standards.
> Just my opinion.
> 
> Some places to start:
> ...


That may indeed be part of the reason Canidae is more expensive, but it is certainly not the entire reason....im not an economist, but Ive seen how buying power effects my own business....

For example: 
Company A is buying 10 tons of certain grade of chicken meal/barley/oats/corn (or in my case steel) and Company B is buying 100 tons of the same...
Company B will get offered a MUCH better price per ton ....and will often have other perks from the supplier as well..like delivery preferences (which if you are in processing and have to wait for your components can mean big dollars)

Now imagine the 'buying power' ripple effect...
If you as Company B get pricing advantages for
the propane to run your factory, 
insurance premiums for your employees, 
from your freight carriers, 
taxes from the communities where your factories are located, 
your advertising...

Company A _has_ to increase their pricing to the buying public just to be able to stay in business - never mind compete and grow their business so they can then, in turn, get their own buying power advantages. 
The higher price charged to the public certainly isnt _soley_ becuase of the individual ingredients that go into the product.....there is alot more that goes into pricing then the actual ingredients inside the bag.
Doesnt make the higher price wrong....but as a consumers we all have to know we are not buying ONLY what is in the bag, but all of the expenses incurred to produce/ship/market and advertise whats in the bag...

I dont tend to think of suppliers of 'Human Grade' or 'Holistic' dog food producers as 'trendy'....but more of a niche market. They have found a market (and marketing plan) for their product at a price the public is willing to pay. _If they can hold the niche and grow_...they will have then have the buying power of the big-boys....then their price will, in theory, drop...allowing their consumer base to grow even further....at some point thier product will no longer fill a niche, but become common....
_Or_ they will grow as much as they can....and a larger dog food company will wave a big bundle of cash in front of the owners faces and they will sell for a handsome profit.... (sorry my pessimistic side shining through )


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## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

I must say this thread has been interesting and I appreciate the civility of the discussion which is something rare in dog food discussions. Just wanted to pat you guys on the back.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

TheHooch said:


> I must say this thread has been interesting and I appreciate the civility of the discussion which is something rare in dog food discussions. Just wanted to pat you guys on the back.


Could you send money instead, please?


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## Wilson's REAL Mom (Nov 10, 2006)

Pointgold said:


> Could you send money instead, please?


or maybe a bag of dog food? It's getting to be a pretty valuable commodity these days! I couldn't believe it the other day when I reminded one of my kids to lock the car doors because, "I've got a bag of dog food in the back."


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## T&T (Feb 28, 2008)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *TheHooch*  
_I must say this thread has been interesting and I appreciate the civility of the discussion which is something rare in dog food discussions. Just wanted to pat you guys on the back. _




Pointgold said:


> Could you send money instead, please?


 
*OR ELSE ... *


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Lucky's mom said:


> I may not positively understand this, but if the food meets nutrient profiles then no testing is needed because the nutrient profiles are created from earlier testing. Right?
> 
> And problems like the taurine issue is often found outside the testing....as when dogs start getting sick and data is sent in from vets.
> 
> ...


I hope that's true- it makes sense.


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

If Purina has done a study in which they fed half the dogs human-grade chicken meal and half the dogs corn gluten meal, and the corn gluten meal dogs lived longer, most of us would be switching. But the research is mostly to determine how much of each nutrient should be in the food, and the smaller companies can access those results too. In fact, anyone with Internet access, a calculator, and a lot of time on their hands can design a diet that will keep normal dogs alive ...


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## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

katieanddusty said:


> In fact, anyone with Internet access, a calculator, and a lot of time on their hands can design a diet that will keep normal dogs alive ...


I assign that task to you. I will be waiting for a report back. And remember I don;t exactly have years to wait.


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## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> Could you send money instead, please?


How about a brand NEW OXYGEN BOTTLE I got three today.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

TheHooch said:


> How about a brand NEW OXYGEN BOTTLE I got three today.


WOO HOO! Oxygen Bars are the hip thing in Europe


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## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> WOO HOO! Oxygen Bars are the hip thing in Europe


Then I am the hippest guy I know. I am on it 24/7 now and I ainlt getting no high.


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## katieanddusty (Feb 9, 2006)

You're definitely the hippest guy I know :


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## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

katieanddusty said:


> You're definitely the hippest guy I know :


You just remember your home work I assigned you. ROFL


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## Romeo1 (Apr 19, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> There were health issues relating to taurine deficiencies (particularly heart and eye problems) in dogs fed lamb based foods, as lamb is naturally low in taurine.
> 
> My dogs coats are better when fed chicken than they were on lamb, also.


Ok, thx. So you'd recommend just the regular chicken/rice, not "Selects" or anything like that? Sorry to keep asking you so many questions!


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Romeo said:


> Ok, thx. So you'd recommend just the regular chicken/rice, not "Selects" or anything like that? Sorry to keep asking you so many questions!


Never apologize for asking questions!  

I use regular ProPlan formulas. Not Selects.


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## WLR (May 11, 2008)

Pro Plan has corn gluten in it.........My terrier/terrorist mix suffered from seizures for two years, 4 to 6 a month, before I started him on an organic kibble, Newmans Own. The seizures virtually were stopped cold by this change. All told he has only had 3 seizures this year, the first I figure was a risidual effect from the Pro Plan which I stopped using the first week in Jan, the 2nd he licked out the sides of an ice cream dish of chocolate ice cream, and the 3rd was a few hours after he had half a hotdog that I later found had wheat & corn gluten in it.


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## Griffyn'sMom (Mar 22, 2007)

I get the "Selects" for Griff and use it for treats - sometimes a handful on top of his regular food to get him interested in eating. He's not a big eater. He loves the Turkey/Barley and I just bought a bag of the Salmon since he usually goes nuts anytime I have fish. 
(forgot to mention - it is a LOT more expensive - I only get the little bags.)
I just got the new bag of Canidae and put a handful of it on top the the remaining old food. He dove right into it.

I was concerned when I was buying his food - a woman was there returning a bag of Canadae Senior - said it gave her dog diahrea and she wanted the "old formula" - the Manager told her that they wouldn't be able to give her the old formula much longer - that it was all changing over but they did manage to find her a bag so she was happy. Unfortunately, she's going to have to find something else.

I'm crossing my fingers that Griff, being a younger dog with an iron stomach won't have any trouble with it.


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## GoldPups (Aug 22, 2008)

I fed Purina products for years. I thought Proplan was OK. ProPlan Selects are much more expensive in comparison to others holistic foods. I switched to Eagle Pack Holistic last year because of the formula and it's supposedly all human grade food. It has no by-products and fillers like he commercial crap. The dogs do well with it. No gas and small stools. They have a variety of formulas including large breed and puppy. I feed Chicken and Brown Rice and The Lamb formula. I wean pups on the Puppy Chicken blend and Canned puppy. Go to their web site and ask about breeder support. I get 33 pounds for $35.00 and 1 free with 10 from a distributer-delivered to my door. I'm satisfied, but still looking for a holistic formula that costs less than $1.00 a pound.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

WLR said:


> Pro Plan has corn gluten in it.........My terrier/terrorist mix suffered from seizures for two years, 4 to 6 a month, before I started him on an organic kibble, Newmans Own. The seizures virtually were stopped cold by this change. All told he has only had 3 seizures this year, the first I figure was a risidual effect from the Pro Plan which I stopped using the first week in Jan, the 2nd he licked out the sides of an ice cream dish of chocolate ice cream, and the 3rd was a few hours after he had half a hotdog that I later found had wheat & corn gluten in it.


 
How long did you feed ProPlan? How old was your dog when he started to suffer seizure? How longer after you stopped feeding it was the first of the 3 seizures which you think might be "residual" effect of the ProPlan. Has he been medicated?


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Tomorrow, I am going to feed the new formula Canidae for the first time. Has it been okay for most dogs making the transition?


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## LOVEisGOLDEN (Jan 4, 2008)

i thought Blush's worsening ears was us swimming more, our yellow grass was the dry summer, & softer stools were from more exercise than normal...the more i read, i fear it is the new formula. they eat it better than the old, but I've noticed several little changes-ex: Blush has always been the gassy one, not bad-just every once in a while. the frequency hasn't changed, but man-they'll run you out of a room right now! she even walks away from stink that is her butt...

we made the switch about a month ago...i'm lost on what to switch too now.


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## WLR (May 11, 2008)

Dudley had been on the ProPlan for 9 years before he started to have the seizures which would happen almost always at night or early morning.
I started him on the Newmans the first week in January and his last seizure was Jan 8th. The next was in June which I believe was caused by the risidual chocolate ice cream.
He was on as much as 105mg Pheno 2x a day and then 2.5ml of Potassium Bromide, (KBr) also 2x a day, and he still was getting up to 4 seizures a month.
After the food switch I gradually decreased the Pheno since it has the most side effects and increased the KBr. He is now on 5ml of KBr and the 15mg of Pheno 2x a day starting this week, along with being on a semi raw diet.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

WLR said:


> Dudley had been on the ProPlan for 9 years before he started to have the seizures which would happen almost always at night or early morning.
> I started him on the Newmans the first week in January and his last seizure was Jan 8th. The next was in June which I believe was caused by the risidual chocolate ice cream.
> He was on as much as 105mg Pheno 2x a day and then 2.5ml of Potassium Bromide, (KBr) also 2x a day, and he still was getting up to 4 seizures a month.
> After the food switch I gradually decreased the Pheno since it has the most side effects and increased the KBr. He is now on 5ml of KBr and the 15mg of Pheno 2x a day starting this week, along with being on a semi raw diet.


I wonder if he were not on the meds if he would continue to have seizures, even when not being fed ProPlan.


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## T&T (Feb 28, 2008)

WLR said:


> Dudley had been on the ProPlan for 9 years before he started to have the seizures which would happen almost always at night or early morning.I started him on the Newmans the first week in January and his last seizure was Jan 8th. The next was in June which I believe was caused by the risidual chocolate ice cream.He was on as much as 105mg Pheno 2x a day and then 2.5ml of Potassium Bromide, (KBr) also 2x a day, and he still was getting up to 4 seizures a month.After the food switch I gradually decreased the Pheno since it has the most side effects and increased the KBr. He is now on 5ml of KBr and the 15mg of Pheno 2x a day starting this week, along with being on a semi raw diet.


*INTERESTING INFO ON SEIZURES*
http://www.greatdanelady.com/articl...ma9qjveg&cof=FORID:9&q=seizures&sa=Search#928


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## Griffyn'sMom (Mar 22, 2007)

So far so good on the new Canidae here (Chicken and rice) - Griff likes it and no extra gas - he seems fine with it. 

The Salmon ProPlan Selects smells like fish food. Blech! :yuck: But Griff likes that too. If his breath starts to smell like that food it's over baby! :


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Griffyn'sMom said:


> So far so good on the new Canidae here (Chicken and rice) - Griff likes it and no extra gas - he seems fine with it.
> 
> The Salmon ProPlan Selects smells like fish food. Blech! :yuck: But Griff likes that too. If his breath starts to smell like that food it's over baby! :


 
I cannot stand the smell of dogs fed ANY fish products, and even those given salmon oil have an odor. It's not just their breath, but their entire bodies. :yuck:


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## Griffyn'sMom (Mar 22, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> I cannot stand the smell of dogs fed ANY fish products, and even those given salmon oil have an odor. It's not just their breath, but their entire bodies. :yuck:


Really? Oh crud! Well... he's only getting about a large handful a day. (And my hands are small so that's like a normal size handful for most of you)  Hopefully that won't make him smell like a fish monger. : (I only got the small bag of that anyway just to see if he likes it.)


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## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

Pointgold said:


> I cannot stand the smell of dogs fed ANY fish products, and even those given salmon oil have an odor. It's not just their breath, but their entire bodies. :yuck:


Me neither. I swear it oozes from there pores. The Orijen 6 fish made me ill. Bleck!


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

I must be missing something....my dogs get the salmon oil and dont smell like fish.


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## uhmanda00 (Aug 3, 2008)

I hope Lucy doesn't start to smell. The salmon oil I ordered just came in today, and I will start feeding it to her tomorrow. Cross your fingers she doesn't start to smell bad!!


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Ash said:


> Me neither. I swear it oozes from there pores. The Orijen 6 fish made me ill. Bleck!


My Dalmatian friends feed fish based foods, and when they bring them to handling class I nearly die! It's especially noticeable in short coated dogs, too.


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## WLR (May 11, 2008)

Well right now, that's the idea, to get him off this stuff....since long term Pheno will damage liver & kidneys from what I've been told.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Maggies mom said:


> I must be missing something....my dogs get the salmon oil and dont smell like fish.


Mine don't either.... I'm sure it depends on the brand used. The icelandic pure is odor free as is the Carlson's Finest Fish oil that I use... it is lemon flavored and I occasionally use it to make a vinagrette. The puppers use either brand.


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

Penny & Maggie's Mom said:


> Mine don't either.... I'm sure it depends on the brand used. The icelandic pure is odor free as is the Carlson's Finest Fish oil that I use... it is lemon flavored and I occasionally use it to make a vinagrette. The puppers use either brand.


I use the Wild Grizzly.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Maggies mom said:


> I use the Wild Grizzly.


That is what my Dal friends use, and I tried it, also. It smelled!


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

Pointgold said:


> That is what my Dal friends use, and I tried it, also. It smelled!


Maybe it depends on the dogs..... They have never smelled like fish , except when Maggie rolled on a few dead fish.


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## uhmanda00 (Aug 3, 2008)

Maggies mom said:


> I use the Wild Grizzly.


That's what I just bought!
I hope they don't smell! :crossfing


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## Romeo1 (Apr 19, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> Never apologize for asking questions!
> 
> I use regular ProPlan formulas. Not Selects.


Well, after several days of integrating both foods, my dog is on ProPlan chicken and rice and he loves it. He is normally extremely finicky about food, but this one he cannot get enough of! No gastrointestinal changes from this or anything. So far, I'm really pleased with it. Thanks again.


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## TheHooch (May 9, 2007)

Romeo said:


> Well, after several days of integrating both foods, my dog is on ProPlan chicken and rice and he loves it. He is normally extremely finicky about food, but this one he cannot get enough of! No gastrointestinal changes from this or anything. So far, I'm really pleased with it. Thanks again.


Glad things seem to be going good.


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## sifuyono (May 8, 2008)

GoldPups said:


> I fed Purina products for years. I thought Proplan was OK. ProPlan Selects are much more expensive in comparison to others holistic foods. I switched to Eagle Pack Holistic last year because of the formula and it's supposedly all human grade food. It has no by-products and fillers like he commercial crap. The dogs do well with it. No gas and small stools. They have a variety of formulas including large breed and puppy. I feed Chicken and Brown Rice and The Lamb formula. I wean pups on the Puppy Chicken blend and Canned puppy. Go to their web site and ask about breeder support. I get 33 pounds for $35.00 and 1 free with 10 from a distributer-delivered to my door. I'm satisfied, but still looking for a holistic formula that costs less than $1.00 a pound.


it's cheap
i've got to pay eaglepack natural 16.5lbs for $29 in here indonesia


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## hello (Apr 3, 2007)

All this info is great--but im confused on the lamb issue--good?or bad? Im also taking Josey off Canidae and like the looks of pro plan-was considering Large Breed Selects Natural lamb and oatmeal.Maybe I should stick to chicken?


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

This food article was written by a vet that Tally's breeder uses sometimes. It made me doubt myself all over again. Canidae is what my dogs eat, sometimes with a little chicken, turkey , yogurt etc- but Eukanuba is what got my past generation into their teens. I so badly want to do what is best for them, but it is hard to figure it out.

http://www.showdogsupersite.com/kenlclub/breedvet/dogdiets.html


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Ljilly28 said:


> This food article was written by a vet that Tally's breeder uses sometimes. It made me doubt myself all over again. Canidae is what my dogs eat, sometimes with a little chicken, turkey , yogurt etc- but Eukanuba is what got my past generation into their teens. I so badly want to do what is best for them, but it is hard to figure it out.
> 
> http://www.showdogsupersite.com/kenlclub/breedvet/dogdiets.html


I have to agree with the Vet on all points. 

Pro Plan by Nestle Purina and Eukanuba Premium Performance by The Iams Company are two excellent foods that fuel the dogs of MANY breeders, professional handlers and professional trainers. These people feed those products because they have a long history of proven results.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Swampcollie said:


> I have to agree with the Vet on all points.
> 
> Pro Plan by Nestle Purina and Eukanuba Premium Performance by The Iams Company are two excellent foods that fuel the dogs of MANY breeders, professional handlers and professional trainers. These people feed those products because they have a long history of proven results.


Thanks Swampcollie. I think I am going to go back to Eukanuba premium performance. What motivated me to change to Canidae and add fresh food, was the experience of Hemangiosarcoma in my elderly goldens, and a strong desire to try and beat the bad cancer statisitcs my puppies. 

QUOTEAnother note about a wonderful food like the Eukanuba Premium Performance; it is a perfectly balanced food, and it is that precise balance, even more than specific ingredients, that makes it a better dog food. If you are feeding a nutritionally balanced commercial dog food, and you start adding table scraps, raw or cooked meat, chunks of broccoli or carrots, cottage cheese or yogurt, you are unbalancing it. Don't do that, at least don't do it very much.QUOTE


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

I've never added anything to their food. I do sometimes think I may try the Pro-Plan. I just have to watch out for Shadow's allergies and the calories in the food because of Tucker. Feeding less doesn't work in this household.


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## hgatesy (Feb 14, 2007)

Well... we're half considering jumping the Canidae ship. Parker has gotten a severe case of the itch. I kept telling myself that it was because we were at a dock dogs competition all last weekend and they were swimming in a mucky pond. But... now it's Thursday... and Park is still itching and has now a few spots we're keeping an eye on, so I'm starting to wonder if it's something else... (food). Camden seems to be fine... but he's never been as sensitive as Park. I'd say we're coming up on the 3 month mark now with having been using the new formula. No idea what to switch too though. This thread has been helpful, however I just can't make up my mind if we should hang on a bit or try something else.


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