# Used a shock collar and I feel mean!



## loverofgldns (Feb 22, 2010)

Madison is almost a year old and for the past three monthe has been jumping and mouthing everyone, including me, when we walk in the house. My daughter is home for Christmas and has a shock collar that she used briefly on her dog that was a rescue dog and a runner. She almost lost him three times. I used it on Madison as my 84 year old mother was here for the holidays and bruises easily when Madison jumps on her. I had to use it about four times and Madison no longer mouths or jumps any longer. I feel guilty, but it worked. How bad am I?


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## loverofgldns (Feb 22, 2010)

*Picture of Madison*

Here's some pictures of my sweetheart. I feel so guilty, but she is so much better.


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## KWsSadie (Dec 4, 2010)

Aww you aren't mean!! Madison is a pretty pup, btw!!


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

Sometimes dogs just need a stronger dose of 'medicine' you did what you had to do - which is much preferable to banning the dog to the backyard. Now that she is not jumping and biting, make sure that you reinforce the good behavior - lots of praise and treats!!! Take the time to teach her a 'good' alternate behavior - a sit or down - or even 'go to you spot' and reward her 'big time' when she obeys.


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## IowaGold (Nov 3, 2009)

I don't think you're mean at all. In the right hands, an e-collar is a fast, effective way to give your dog a clear message. And it doesn't have to hurt-the low levels on the collar are pretty darn effective for most dogs.


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## bioteach (Nov 13, 2010)

I agree - lots of praise for doing the right thing. One word of caution....Goldens are very intelligent. I met one once that immediately knew that the shock collar was "special". He behaved like an obedience champion when the shock collar was on and was "himself" when it wasn't. 

Now that your sweet girl knows what not to do it's best to use the positive methods to encourage her to do her best. She's beautiful and I bet that she's very smart too!


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## boomers_dawn (Sep 20, 2009)

Awww, Madison is beautiful. I don't think you're bad, but I am wondering the reason how come you're feeling guilty.

We learned to use the collar starting with the finding the lowest setting needed to indicate the dog felt it. i.e. not jumping or screeching, just making a face to indicate ...hmm I feel something. 
I never feel mean using it because I think it's not supposed to hurt, just feel like something.

Do you feel guilty because you feel you're hurting Madison? If so, maybe the collar is set too high or there's a piece of the training or understanding you're not getting? If you just put the collar on the dog and pushed the button to get her to stop doing something, you may have missed a few steps and may consider getting more training in how to use the collar. 

You do have to keep your mom safe after all no matter what and if Madison can't respect not jumping on her then something does need to be done. Maybe the crate could be another option if you don't like using the collar. I donno, I hope this helps but either way, you aren't bad and the fact that you're thinking about it means you're trying to do what's right, that's good.


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## loverofgldns (Feb 22, 2010)

Thank you everyone for your replies. I felt bad because initially we had the shock on too high. We have not had to do anything since the first day of using it. If she attempts to jump or mouth (which is now rare) all I have to do is point the remote control at her and she stops. God bless her! She is so smart and now I no longer worry about my Mom or when company arrives. Thank you everyone and Happy New Year!


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## BajaOklahoma (Sep 27, 2009)

Ben was one of those who recognized the difference between having the collar on and off - and he fgured out how to check to see if it was turned on. <sigh>


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## DaisyGolden (Jan 4, 2008)

Now that she understands what you want her to do you might want to teach her a word for it, when she tries to jump up or mouth someone you could point the remote and say "Away" and then you should get to a point where she won't even need to see the remote because she'll know what the word means. She is very pretty and sounds super smart.


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

We own a shock collar. I used to be opposed to them, however I have a runner (Teddi) and I do field work. You need to control them when they are not on a leash. 

The "only" mistake I would say you did was put the collar on and use it. We were told to have the dog wear it for quite a while so they do not associate the collar with the shock. Quinn sees us pull our her shock collar, and while I firmly believe she knows what it is capable of, LOVES to see it because it means she is going to go have some fun. 

I have not used it on Teddi yet. I still suspect we will. You are not a bad mom, but you may want to educate yourself on all the things a properly used collar can do. It can be a valuable tool. We will use one on Gabby when she is old enough. 

I am glad you got results quickly and Madison was smart enough to figure out what you wanted, and do it properly.


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## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

At 84, your mom could lose her balance and fall if a dog jumps on her. A mild corrective shock to Madison is preferable.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Personally, I'm shocked and a little appalled that so many people support the use of this type of collar for this purpose. This isn't field or snake aversion training... this isn't being done under the guidance of a knowledgeable professional.... and it is not nearly the only option or a last resort. 

Yes, it's important to protect your mother in this situation... but let's be honest here. This is not a problem that required anything quite so drastic as a shock collar. This was lazy training and you now have a dog that you are controlling by fear -- congratulations. I strongly suggest you find a trainer to assist you in teaching your dog proper manners using more humane methods before your relationship suffers any more than it already has. There's a reason you feel bad about your actions.... own that and vow to do better next time. You owe it to Madison.

Julie and Jersey


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

There are many good threads discussing ecollars/ shock collars if you'd like to read/ research myriad viewpoints and opinions. It's useful to search, and interesting too. Some people feel it is okay to spank kids, and some people shock dogs; we all decide for our own dogs. I have seen so very many nervous, frightened dogs who have been shocked without good collar conditioning, that I have to agree with Jersey's mom on this one. There are many methods to good manners, and I happen not to believe that the ends justify the means when there are so many training methods/options available. However, this is your dog and thus your decision to make.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

Jersey's Mom said:


> Personally, I'm shocked and a little appalled that so many people support the use of this type of collar for this purpose. This isn't field or snake aversion training... this isn't being done under the guidance of a knowledgeable professional.... and it is not nearly the only option or a last resort.
> 
> Yes, it's important to protect your mother in this situation... but let's be honest here. This is not a problem that required anything quite so drastic as a shock collar. This was lazy training and you now have a dog that you are controlling by fear -- congratulations. I strongly suggest you find a trainer to assist you in teaching your dog proper manners using more humane methods before your relationship suffers any more than it already has. There's a reason you feel bad about your actions.... own that and vow to do better next time. You owe it to Madison.
> 
> Julie and Jersey


Thanks for speaking up Julie. I just glanced at this thread last night and was really upset with how many people condoned the use of an E-Collar on a dog as a first resort and I should have replied, but didn't.


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

To each there own, this is your dog and you did what you felt was a quick solution to stopping bad behavior and it worked. I have e-collars and have only used the shock once, other times they have gotten the vibrating mode. Yes some dogs are afraid of them BUT I know plenty of dogs out there that arent afraid and arent damaged by them. I dont think someone who hasnt been trained to use them correctly have any business putting them on a dog.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

*Proper* use of an ecollar takes considerable care and training and most certainly is not lazy, nor does it work by fear. (except maybe for snake avoidance--but I can't imagine using an ecollar myself to scare my dog).

After being against an ecollar, I did some more research and found it useful when I delved into field work. My dog will climb on top of the dryer and dig through a training bag in order to grab her ecollar and bring it to me. Her tail is wagging and she is jumping up and down for me to put that thing on her to go get train. I use it very carefully.


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## lgnutah (Feb 26, 2007)

The OP wasn't asking before the fact, what method she should try to use to keep her dog from jumping on or scratching her 84 year old mother. OP was saying she had already (successfully) used the electronic collar on a very limited basis to prevent her dog from jumping on her mother, and felt badly that she had chosen this method. 
Responses in support were basically agreeing that her mother is a frail, elderly woman, who needed to be kept safe, and OP shouldn't beat herself up over choosing the electronic collar (although many suggested alternative methods involving positive strategies).
On the other hand, I don't know what kind of a "shock" the collar gives so I may be speaking without any knowledge, but I assumed it was something like the shock I get from static electricity. It doesn't hurt me, but I notice it. I am certainly not harmed in any way from it. I can't see much difference between a "leash correction" where a person gives a quick snap to the leash so the collar pulls on the dog, and an electronic collar that gives some sort of noticeable twinge. Both catch the dog's attention.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

GoldenSail said:


> *Proper* use of an ecollar takes considerable care and training and most certainly is not lazy, nor does it work by fear. (except maybe for snake avoidance--but I can't imagine using an ecollar myself to scare my dog).


Perhaps, but what about this situation constitutes "*Proper*" use of an ecollar? The OP is currently using the threat of continued shock as a method of contoling the dog. That sounds very different than what you describe. I'm not referring to a carefully planned and executed field training program under the guidance of a professional or other expert when I talk about lazy training. It may not be a method I choose to participate in, but it's also not at all what this discussion is about. This is about someone who chose to bypass all methods of management and basic training to go for the most aversive method first... did so without guidance, leading them to turn the settings too high (by their own reporting).... and then came here to ask why they felt bad for doing it. Very different story. I stand by what I said.

Julie and Jersey


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

lgnutah said:


> The OP wasn't asking before the fact, what method she should try to use to keep her dog from jumping on or scratching her 84 year old mother. OP was saying she had already (successfully) used the electronic collar on a very limited basis to prevent her dog from jumping on her mother, and felt badly that she had chosen this method.
> Responses in support were basically agreeing that her mother is a frail, elderly woman, who needed to be kept safe, and OP shouldn't beat herself up over choosing the electronic collar (although many suggested alternative methods involving positive strategies).
> On the other hand, I don't know what kind of a "shock" the collar gives so I may be speaking without any knowledge, but I assumed it was something like the shock I get from static electricity. It doesn't hurt me, but I notice it. I am certainly not harmed in any way from it. I can't see much difference between a "leash correction" where a person gives a quick snap to the leash so the collar pulls on the dog, and an electronic collar that gives some sort of noticeable twinge. Both catch the dog's attention.


There are different levels of the shock...I have test the collar I use on myself... with mine the lowest settings you dont even feel, moving it up it does feel like a static shock..when you get up to the upper levels is when you start to feel it....


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## BayBeams (Jan 3, 2010)

When I first saw this thread the other day, no one had yet responded and I quite frankly could not imagine shocking my dog to make him/her stop jumping when there are so many other ways. I was surprised when I later saw the thread at how many condoned this method as the first solution to an age old problem.
I do know many people, who with extensive and proper training, use the shock collar for field work and other competitive training. It is not my method of choice but perhaps there is value when training at a distance. Here you are dealing with a dog that is right in front of you not hundreds of yards away.
I,also, sadly witnessed a sweet weimerainer who became terrified of sitting in the group exercises in obedience competition because she had been severely shocked when she chased a squirrel. It took many months for that dog to again be successful in the group exercise.
Do I think you have terrorized your dog for using this method inadequately...no but I think you were ill advised and tried to justify it by saying your elderly relative may have gotten injured. That is just plain ridiculous. 
Take the time and use some creativitiy to train your dog properly and humanely.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Jersey's Mom said:


> Perhaps, but what about this situation constitutes "*Proper*" use of an ecollar? The OP is currently using the threat of continued shock as a method of contoling the dog. That sounds very different than what you describe. I'm not referring to a carefully planned and executed field training program under the guidance of a professional or other expert when I talk about lazy training. It may not be a method I choose to participate in, but it's also not at all what this discussion is about. This is about someone who chose to bypass all methods of management and basic training to go for the most aversive method first... did so without guidance, leading them to turn the settings too high (by their own reporting).... and then came here to ask why they felt bad for doing it. Very different story. I stand by what I said.
> 
> Julie and Jersey


Because ecollars are a hot topic I just wanted to emphasize correct use of one is not lazy or working by fear. I am not going to comment on whether or not I think the OP used one incorrectly. It's too hard to say without being there, IMO.


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## LincolnsMom (Sep 28, 2010)

I believe that in saying anything in this I may be putting my head in the oven but i'm going to anyways. Everyone has different styles for training. Personally I do not believe in using pain to train a dog; but I do believe in e-collars if only for their vibration function. 

There is a trainer in the building where I live who uses positive reinforcement training. She has one on her i believe 14-18 month old golden Lexi who is simply beautiful well trained and wears the collar. She wears it because she is young, is a runner, and has anxiety issues. According to the trainer she uses is is on a low setting - a vibration she calls it- to get Lexi's attention from what she is focusing on. I saw this in action one day when Lexi got spooked and started get ready bolt in the park. The trainer called to her and when she saw that Lexi was about bolt she used the collar and Lexi was brought out of her focus and was able to listen to Erin. 

I believe that there is use in these collars. I believe that the OP's dog is loved and while I do agree it was a quick solution and -i'm sorry for being mean- she shouldn't have used it because to me while they are a great idea you should be trained in how to use them.

OP- I have little to say in this matter I'm new to having a GR Linc is only 4.5 months old but you know what? Lincoln once got smacked by a relative as a puppy and boy did he learn his lesson. I did not agree with it; but it is the method that some owners choose. It is an old school lesson of -do what I ask and you will get rewards and their are consequences for if you don't. It is what many trainers still use today even though it is not politically correct anymore.

I do not think you are a bad owner. I don't think the collar maybe for you until you learn more about it. I know that i'll never be comfortable using it on Linc not because I don't agree with them but simply because i'm afraid I won't know how to use it correctly.


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## Mighty Casey and Samson's Mom (Jul 16, 2008)

I have considered using one to correct Casey's nasty winter habit of eating "poopsicles". I am really torn too!! However, I get so angry with him when he does it, I can't imagine that a little tingle would be worse than my "BAD, BAD BOy!! ohh...SUCH A BADD, BADD BOY!!" I think that he too would respond to a "fake point" of the control after a couple of buzzes...might try to borrow one from a friend.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Heading up a thread on a training method with the headline about how "mean" it feels to use it is less than a confidence-builder in that method. I feel pride and partnership training my dogs, and anything that made me feel mean I would not be choosing as part of my relationship with my dog.


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## loverofgldns (Feb 22, 2010)

I realize that I hit a sore spot with many of you, so I feel a need to clarify. First of all we put the collar on using a tone only. She is aware of the tone because we have an electric fence. I felt guilty because the tone scared her unbelievably. Fortunately, it took two and only two corrections to alleviate the jumping and the mouthing. I hae tried everything to correct the jumping; i kept a leach on her in the house for over a month to step on if she jumped, I used a lemon water spray bottle, I used a tin can filled with pennies, and I'd put her in her crate to chill out, nothing worked. My Mom was not comfortable coming to my home because of Madison. Mom is also on cumadin and when she left here after her last visit she was covered in bruises. I felt mean because my alpha dog was scarfed, but I know I did the right thing because the jumping and mouthing has ceased after only two corrections. She is very smart and very loving. I have had her with a trainer and have worked hard on her manners. Trust me, I have not been a lazy owner. We have had 4 goldens and I have loved each and everyone of them and know how to train. Chloe is still with us at the age of 3 and she is quite submissive to Madison. I just needed a quick fix soo that my Mom would not be harmed. Thank you everyone for your input, supportive or otherwise.


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

Lovofgoldens, you did nothing wrong. Ecollars used properly do NOT hurt the dog, only get their attention. It is part of learning to use one to know the limit for your dog. I am SO glad you used the tone only. You got quite the response that way no harm done, just a response. I think it just startled your dog. We suspect the tone will be all we will need with Teddi. She is still just too suspicious when we put the collar on her to turn it on. 

This is a controversial conversation, there are many who believe in positive only there is nothing wrong with EITHER method, as long as both are done right. Not saying there are not those who do misuse many methods. 

In my case, without the knowledge I now have, I have seen Teddi BOLT across my street. It is a quiet residential neighborhood, but that does not mean there are no cars. I would much rather see her shocked and back off than hit by a car. She will recover from the shock. I don't expect it to get to that. I have tried and tried and tried, to work her recall. She can be solid for MONTHS straight, then see something and off she goes. Usually is it people. We have worked on leash, off leash etc. I must get her attention in these cases, and it ALWAYS happens when she is off leash. If she is not respecting my voice calling her what are my options? She is 4 years old, and this is her one hole. 

You had an extreme situation. Sure you will continue to work on the desired behavior in the correct manner, you just had to get the job done at that moment. No harm done.


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## fostermom (Sep 6, 2007)

loverofgldns said:


> Thank you everyone for your replies. I felt bad because initially we had the shock on too high. We have not had to do anything since the first day of using it. If she attempts to jump or mouth (which is now rare) all I have to do is point the remote control at her and she stops. God bless her! She is so smart and now I no longer worry about my Mom or when company arrives. Thank you everyone and Happy New Year!


You said in your most recent post that you only used tone, but that's not what you say here. This is the post that most of us read and have a problem with. You were not trained properly on how to use an ecollar and you admit that not only did you have the shock too high, you continued to use the remote scare her into behaving. I don't believe in shock collars, but I do respect some of the field trainers who post here and use one because they always emphasize that you only use an ecollar when a dog already knows and understands the command, not as a short cut to training.


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## loverofgldns (Feb 22, 2010)

Another clarification, I thought I had the shcok on too high. Not being familiar witht he device, my daughter (who owns the collar) informed after I used it that it was not on shcok but on tone only. As far as pointing the remote, it does not harm her at all as she doesn't even have the collar on. It just serves as a reminder. We are constantly praising her for not jumping or mouthing when we come in and this behavior has ceased. We just came in from shopping and normally when we ler her out of her crate she'll jump and bite on clothing or your hand. She thought about doing this but pulled back and waited for hewr loves. There was no remote needed.


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## boomers_dawn (Sep 20, 2009)

I would like to just say for the record I don't condone popping a collar on a dog and pushing buttons to fix problems. I didn't snap to judgement b/c for all I know, the O/P had a behaviorist in and was taught how to use the collar. The O/P admitted to not knowing how to use it. Unfortunately people "teach" each other how to use the collar - incorrectly.

I think its more constructive for us to ask questions and educate than bully or berate. That way maybe someone will learn something and benefit the dog.

Lovrofgoldns please don't use the collar ever again unless you get some professional training on how to use it, and thank you for being open to all the feedback you've gotten.


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## boomers_dawn (Sep 20, 2009)

Whoops, hit post twice, sorry.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I'll start by stating that I really appreciate being able to train with an ecollar when I feel like it's the best method for that particular dog/skill. Being able to do a "hands off" correction is just what I need sometimes.

I do, however, think the OP is very lucky that what she was attempting didn't seriously backfire. There's a lot more to it than just slapping an ecollar on and hitting the button. So while I do believe that ecollars can successfully be used in many different situations, including to prevent jumping on people (although I have never used it for that reason myself), I also think that if not done properly it could actually make the problem much worse or even make the dog show aggression towards the person.

Please be very careful, technology in uneducated hands can be a dangerous thing


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## loverofgldns (Feb 22, 2010)

Boomer's Dawn Thank you for your response. My daughter went back to her home and took the collar with her. We no longer have it or will we ever use it again. Thank you for your kindness,


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## loverofgldns (Feb 22, 2010)

Loisiana - You are quite right. I'm lucky it didn't backfire. As I stated, the collar is gone for good and I will not be using it again. Thank you for your response.


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## ggdenny (Nov 2, 2008)

No judging here, but I would never use anything or do anything that would intentionally cause my golden pain just because of some behavioral issues. I think of it as animal cruelty, but others disagree. When people visit my house I want my doggies to be reasonably behaved, but they live here, not the visitors. You asked - just my opinion.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I realize that it's a dangerous situation with an older person in the home and that you can't afford to experiment with things that may not work.

That said, I don't think the e-collar is the best way to teach a dog not to jump. I think the problem with the methods you've described is that you kept trying to use a negative stimulus to overpower a dog's excited behavior. That's just not a model that works well. You need to teach her what to do _instead_ when she's excited. Teaching a dog NOT to do something that's natural (like looking a person right in the face to say hi) is much easier if you teach an alternative behavior (like sitting) and positively reward it.

The reason I say that the e-collar isn't ideal is that it can have negative consequences. The dog you describe seems to be very, very afraid of being shocked, and that's a recipe for disaster. I once lost a thumbnail to a Golden Retriever whose family had misused a shock collar to teach him not to jump. He was a gentle soul and an exuberant greeter of guests. His family repeatedly shocked him (I realize you didn't do this, but they did) during undesired greeting behavior until he stopped in place and cringed. They got what they wanted during greetings, but the also got a dog that bit me very badly when I grabbed his collar suddenly (I didn't cause him any pain, just surprised him).

The dog had learned that his neck was the location of pain and confusion, so when I grabbed him there, boom, he defended himself. Fortunately, my thumbnail was the only casualty and I was able to rebuild trust with him before I gave him back to his family.

This kind of problem does not develop in dogs (so far as I know) who are trained with an e-collar as part of a collar conditioning program and a professional's oversight (for a number of reasons including timing, clarity, and strength of stimulus). However, it can develop when you try to shock a dog to simply pair the unpleasant feeling with an undesired behavior.

Given that your dog reacts so strongly to the sound now, even that sound may reinforce the fear and bad side effects of the collar, since the sound is paired so strongly with the pain in her mind.

In your shoes, I would not use it anymore. I would get into a local training class. Most have classes directly aimed at nice family dogs with common problem behaviors, and a good trainer will help you find ways to teach your dog positive alternatives to jumping. 

For a long time, I thought negative stimuli (bad noises, intimidation, "dominance," etc.) were a necessary part of training a strong behavior. I was wrong.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

loverofgldns said:


> Boomer's Dawn Thank you for your response. My daughter went back to her home and took the collar with her. We no longer have it or will we ever use it again. Thank you for your kindness,


Sorry, but I was writing while you posted that you were getting rid of it. Good on you!

And Dawn is great, btw.


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

I would offer up crating as a way to deal with a rambunctious dog.

I have two border collies and one golden pup. I have used an e-collar only during snake avoidance classes and I hated it. I have seen dogs ruined through the improper use of e-collars, dogs who are nervous when working and who cringe when corrected. My dogs don't cringe when corrected, nor do they cower.

My mother in law is 87ish and very frail. She has fallen twice, and broke the same hip twice. My border collies are very intense and active, so I crate them when my mother in law is about. Max is gentle and calm and instinctively walks in a wide circle around my mother in law, giving ground. However, I crate him when she's walking about. 

I go with a very simple philosophy - if my grandfather was able to raise well mannered, polite dogs without an e-collar, so can I. I consider it to be too negative a feedback for normal training, and had there been another option for snake avoidance I might have used it. 

I don't think the OP is "mean" but I feel that perhaps a negative method might have been used too soon. Who knows - I haven't seen the dog and neither has anyone on the forum. I would simply offer up the suggestion of using a crate to keep the dog from causing a frail person harm over using an e-collar on a soft breed like a golden retriever as a short cut to training.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Re: Comments that the OP is mean.

I don't agree. When you have an elderly or otherwise fragile person, you can feel trapped. Clearly the OP was not trying to abuse the dog but rather prevent injury. I don't agree that the e-collar was the way to accomplish what they wanted, but it wasn't used out of meanness or cruelty, but rather a feeling of necessity.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

tippykayak said:


> Re: Comments that the OP is mean.
> 
> I don't agree. When you have an elderly or otherwise fragile person, you can feel trapped. Clearly the OP was not trying to abuse the dog but rather prevent injury. I don't agree that the e-collar was the way to accomplish what they wanted, but it wasn't used out of meanness or cruelty, but rather a feeling of necessity.


Well said Brian. I agree with this sentiment 100%. I do want to apologize because I feel I was more harsh in my response than I should have been. I'm feeling a little touchy about all things dog at the moment as I go on week 3 without my pooch (He's living with my sister in GA, with me visiting as able during the weekends until I can move into my new house in 3 more weeks... and it's wearing me down). Luckily Tippy, Louisiana, Liliam, and Dawn (to name a few) were able to put into far better words what I was hoping to say. (Oh my god, did I just agree with Louisiana in a training thread??? What is the world coming to?? LOL) I do remain hopeful that you'll sign up for a basic class with your pup and learn the most effective ways to communicate with her and teach her. Good luck to you!

Julie and Jersey


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