# Lessons from the breeders.



## PeanutsMom (Oct 14, 2007)

That would be an interesting thread for sure. I'm sure it would take some time for the breeders but if it was done, I'd certainly be reading. Just because I'm really curious about such things, not because I show or anything.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

What are a few very specific things a Breeder/judge might see here?


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## mdoats (Jun 7, 2007)

I agree that I'm very curious about that as well.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

This is my passion. One of my greatest thrills has been judging sweeps at specialties - to be able to have hands on so many fine dogs.
It must be said that evaluating a dog from a photgraph, particularly a coated breed is nearly impossible, other than to say it is pretty - hands on is the only way to truly assess the structure. And a dog that is beautiful in the stack may well completely fall apart on the move.


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## historicprim (Nov 24, 2007)

What does"no heaviness in flews" mean?

Its the upper lip area.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

historicprim said:


> What does"no heaviness in flews" mean?
> 
> Its the upper lip area.


 
That they should not have thick, long lips.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Just as an aside, and this is really a basic "pet peeve", the word is confOrmation, not confIrmation.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I'll give you a confirmation that it is conformation. . . What is meant by "clean coming and going"? For example, a horse should "track up"; the footprints left by his back hooves should be on or in front of his front hoofprints- depending on what you're doing. A horse may not track up bc of his conformation or because of environmental (things like avoiding the bit, unbalanced rider etc)- should a dog track up or have particular footfalls?


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

I would love a class, too. I have been to many shows looking at Great Pyreneeses, German Shepherds and English Mastiffs, but have not been since I discovered the Golden Retriever.

I can now tell a badly bred golden from a better bred golden, I can look at my own dog and say I like his own looks compared to somebody elses, but I have no idea how to compare him to the breed standard. I just know what looks good to me.


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

A dog "gaits" in a certain way. One thing you don't want is a dog that is "pacing". That means front and rear leg on the same side going in the same direction at the same time.

In other words....front leg and rear leg both going forward together. Not good, but can be overcome by working the dog on hills (and by other means). Sometimes it's all in the speed that the handler is moving. Pacing can occur if you're moving at the wrong speed for that particular dog.

The shoulder layback has a great deal to do with "reach" when a dog gaits. The gaiting should be strong and effortless. And the stride should be long. If the shoulder layback isn't correct, the dog won't stretch out as much....making it look a little "crabby" when it runs...or a LOT crabby. This is what a judge looks for when looking at dog moving around the ring from the side. 

Where the dog's head is when it's moving is also important. The whole "body" can be thrown off if the head isn't in the right position.

A lot of these things are adjustable with proper handling. Some aren't, due to the structure of the dog. And judges can see the difference no matter how good the handler is. Proper conformation allows for proper movement in the ring.

Clean coming and going means a nice straight front (no toeing in or out)....and a nice straight rear, without cowhocks or barrel hocks. Cowhocks are when the rear "knees" point inward causing the rear feet to toe out, and barrel hocks are the opposite...bowlegged in the rear.

In the picture above....the topline is straight (which is good), stifles look good (nice curve in the "butt" area before it meets the bone in the back legs...you don't want straight stifles), muzzle to occipital length looks good (should be the same length), tail length looks good (but you'd have to feel where the "bone" ends to be sure), ear set is good but should be measured across the eyes to make sure, can't tell about the shoulder layback with out hands on, good neck (I don't like no-neck dogs LOL) nice double coat and nice bone (but in the field, both would be too heavy to allow the dog do the job - retrieving - for any length of time).

Heaviness in the flews is what a Saint Bernard has...droopy lips.

PG is right tho.....everything can "look" good because of the grooming. Feathers can be cut a certain way to hide flaws in the rear or the front. Hair can be poofed on top to hide an uneven topline. Hair can be left thicker in some areas to add bulk (like on the chest) and thinned in others to take away bulk that you don't want to show (like on the croup or as we humans call it...the hip...up on the back area). A judge has to feel the dog, all over, to know what the structure really is.


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## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

I agree photos are very hard. Ecspecially when taken from funny angles. I love looking at dogs. I have never been one to handle but have always wanted to judge. I love to just look and assess dogs, putting my hands on them, and having them move. Getting into All-Breed judging is a personal goal of mine but there is a lot of time for/before that.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Pointgold said:


> Just as an aside, and this is really a basic "pet peeve", the word is confOrmation, not confIrmation.


You mean I won't be made to be a good Christian soldier while in the ring with my dog? *wink* Even if I'm there on Sundays? *double wink*


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Ardeagold, thank you so much for the long, thoughtful response. You can see we want to learn. One thing I didnt know until reading your post was how intrinsic to the process seeing the dog move is to the judge. For whatever reason, I thought that was more for "show", and that the judge basically made a decision looking at the stacked dog and feeling it. Our Twin Beau D dog, Acadia, paced. She'd move both her lefts and then both her rights, rather than opposite pairs. At first we werent allowed to choose her bc she was earmarked for a show home, but then, at the last second, we got her. I wonder if it was bc of her movement. I am going to try and find a pic of a dog I know is weak and one that is strong for contrast. 

What makes Joe Millionaire get the judges nod above the other?


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

There cannot be true reach if there is not drive. Drive is the propulsion forward from the rear.


Without seeing "the others", I cannot say why Joe Millionaire won, BUT, I do know that Paula Nykiel, the judge in the photo, is very big on movement. She is a Pointer breeder, and how a dog carries it's topline when on the move as well as having a good front, is very important to her. She knows sporting dogs.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Pointgold said:


> There cannot be true reach if there is not drive. Drive is the propulsion forward from the rear.
> 
> 
> Without seeing "the others", I cannot say why Joe Millionaire won, BUT, I do know that Paula Nykiel, the judge in the photo, is very big on movement. She is a Pointer breeder, and how a dog carries it's topline when on the move as well as having a good front, is very important to her. She knows sporting dogs.


That is really well said. It is very true of dressage horses- all real impulsion/collection comes from the rear.

I just meant to contrast the pics in order to try and figure out the language for an untilted dog with faults v a top dog.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Ljilly28 said:


> That is really well said. It is very true of dressage horses- all real impulsion/collection comes from the rear.
> 
> I just meant to contrast the pics in order to try and figure out the language for an untilted dog with faults v a top dog.


 

A person who understands movement in horses will be better able to grasp movement in dogs. 
There isn't a top dog in any breed that doesn't have faults. A Golden that was #1 for quite a while was not a great dog structurally, but he WAS the quintessential show dog. His handler is able to turn nearly any dog into a fine "showman". (I like this handler very much, BTW - a pro who loves the dogs, cares for them beautifully, and gets 110% out of each and every one of them.) It is very true that not all champions are necessarily great dogs.


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## Debles (Sep 6, 2007)

With all the adjustments to coat and hair that go on to hide faults, pretty soon people will be having dog plastic surgery to hide the baggy lips etc!

I understand more now about why one dog wins and another doesn't. Especially if my favorite doesn't . : (


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

There are links to two movement sites here:

www.endeavorgoldens.com

then click on Links and then 

Dachshund Movcment Site-I know, I know, but it is actually pretty good 

and 

APBT Movement

And, while you are there, click on News and see my friends new "endeavor"-he's adorable! And definitely not a Golden.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

This site has some drawings of what should be under all that coat, and has the added bonus of the "shades of gold" allowed by the Canadian Golden Club:

http://www.grcc.net/GRCCIllustratedBreedStandard.pdf

Marcia Schlehr's old "Blue Book" is still one of my favorites-I don't even know if you can still buy one anywhere. Marcia did the drawings for the above site, but this booklet goes much further and shows heads, ears, movement, front, back, etc.


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## Jenny Wren (Feb 27, 2007)

Thanks, Linda. I really enjoyed your breed standard booklet! 

And there are the shades of golden I mentioned in another thread this morning. I had commented that we used to have a picture here of the dogs with all their acceptible shades of gold...and there it is!


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

Isn't pacing a learned behavior? Years ago I had entered Goliath my Great Pyr in a fun match, he was disqualified because of pacing. I then went to a few drop in handling classes, and was able to get him out of his pacing. I would take a long lead, and have him run around me, like a horse, and he wouldn't pace then. It was mostly me that was causing him to pace when I was handling him.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Pacing can be caused by a number things-poor structure, poor conditioning, and the handler moving at the incorrect speed for the dog.

However, years ago I had two dogs that you literally had to work at it to get them to pace, and they were brother and sister-Scout and Scarlet. They were beautifully put together and even at slow speeds, walking and even out of condition, they trotted. I could sit all day and watch them in the yard or on walks, their movement was so beautiful and clean.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

A friend of mine with Portuguese Water Dogs was aksed to bring one of her boys to a Judges Seminar at their National. He is an incredible dog. A CH, with obedience, agility, and water trial titles. Cathy shocked everyone by shaving him down before the National. She hadn't entered him in breed, only performance events, so they thought "Why not? We don't need the coat, and we have nothing to hide structurally." The judges were thrilled to be able to explain what is under all that hair and have the participants SEE it. 








Tahnee GR said:


> This site has some drawings of what should be under all that coat, and has the added bonus of the "shades of gold" allowed by the Canadian Golden Club:
> 
> http://www.grcc.net/GRCCIllustratedBreedStandard.pdf
> 
> Marcia Schlehr's old "Blue Book" is still one of my favorites-I don't even know if you can still buy one anywhere. Marcia did the drawings for the above site, but this booklet goes much further and shows heads, ears, movement, front, back, etc.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

From a previous thread (trimmed):

*Pacing* is when the front and rear legs on the same side move forward and back at the same time, and will cause the body to "rock" back and forth. Some dogs pace when fatigued, or if simply lazy.Young dogs can do this during their "qawky" phase - when their front and rear angulation hasn't caught up to each other . An adult dog that regularly paces usually has some other structural issues. The lateral movement of the pace can in itself cause injury, and if it seems to be the gait most used by the dog, should be checked. A normal trot is when the front leg on one side is reaching forward and the rear leg on the same side is driving back, whiole on the other side the front leg is back and the rear on the same is forward. 










I don't find pacing to be a "learned" behavior, per se, but it CAN become habitual.


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## Ardeagold (Feb 26, 2007)

> Young dogs can do this during their "qawky" phase - when their front and rear angulation hasn't caught up to each other . An adult dog that regularly paces usually has some other structural issues. The lateral movement of the pace can in itself cause injury, and if it seems to be the gait most used by the dog, should be checked. A normal trot is when the front leg on one side is reaching forward and the rear leg on the same side is driving back, whiole on the other side the front leg is back and the rear on the same is forward.


Cole, as a very young pup, paced. But the handler could get him to gait properly just by doing a little "skip" (or halt) in the movement at the start. When he was about 6 mos, he outgrew the pacing (I guess his body caught up with itself).

Then he got his shoulder "injury" (or pano, or whatever it was) that would come and go for about 4 mos. He definitely paced then, and he's just coming out of it, as the shoulder improves and becomes sound again.

He 1/2 paces....which is hard to explain, but the reach isn't what it should be. 

He needs to rebuild the strength he lost by not being allowed to run and play for months....and he's also still a growing boy. But I don't want it to become habitual, so we're working on it!


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## mdoats (Jun 7, 2007)

This is really great information. Thanks to those who are taking the time to explain things.


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## arcane (Sep 18, 2007)

the best 10 bucks you could spend is getting the Blue book by Marcia Schler 
http://www.grcasales.org/a-study-of-the-golden-retriever.html

this is an in depth study of conformation/movement and our standard.
I study study study! a must have for breeders


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## 3459 (Dec 27, 2007)

Tahnee GR said:


> However, years ago I had two dogs that you literally had to work at it to get them to pace, and they were brother and sister-Scout and Scarlet. They were beautifully put together and even at slow speeds, walking and even out of condition, they trotted. I could sit all day and watch them in the yard or on walks, their movement was so beautiful and clean.


Abbey, my first golden, had that kind of movement. It was so effortless and free, and always a trot - exquisitely graceful at slow speeds and breathtaking when she picked up the pace. Even the rhythm of her feet on my wood floors was a delight. Just watching her was one of life's sweet pleasures. I have no idea what other conformation faults she had, but I suspect a golden with Abbey's movement was a once in a lifetime golden for our family. Not to say we aren't crazy about our Chessie, or my son's backyard accident special Sydney (the queen of golden heart and temperament) -- but pet owners don't typically get a golden that moves like Abbey.

I just wanted to say thank you to all the breeders who took time to respond to this thread and to Ljilly for her great questions. I plan to get the Blue Book and pour over all of the references given by the breeders in this thread. Thanks again.:wave:


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## arcane (Sep 18, 2007)

I also thoroughly enjoyed the seminar "Breeding Better Dogs"- Carmen Battaglia - not only is it a great learning tool he is an awesome easy going guy!!!!!!! lots on movement and correct conformation there, and the simple tools to evaluate!!!!!!!!


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I tried to order Carmen Battaglia's book at Amazon, but it costs 75 dollars unbound and there are none left currently. I am going to keep his name in mind, in case I ever get a chance to hear him speak since you recommend him.


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## arcane (Sep 18, 2007)

Ljilly28 said:


> I tried to order Carmen Battaglia's book at Amazon, but it costs 75 dollars unbound and there are none left currently. I am going to keep his name in mind, in case I ever get a chance to hear him speak since you recommend him.


yikes!! wait for his seminar or try his website I think that his publications are cheaper there.
http://www.breedingbetterdogs.com/index.html


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Ljilly28 said:


> I tried to order Carmen Battaglia's book at Amazon, but it costs 75 dollars unbound and there are none left currently. I am going to keep his name in mind, in case I ever get a chance to hear him speak since you recommend him.


 
I paid $19.95 for it. It's on his website.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Thanks- I will order it from his website. Now that my handling class is over, I am trying to learn more and more from as many sources as i can. I've also tried agility(not for me though I can see why it is such a blast for some owners/dogs) and a puppy field class with Tango. The ecollar/ force fetch just get in my way there even though I loved it. But my handling class was amazing. I am debating with myself over a litter chuckanut is breeding this summer and a different litter for a show pup to learn alongside. Or maybe just watching Tally's littermates, and cheering from the sidelines. hmmmm.


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## Griffyn'sMom (Mar 22, 2007)

Ljilly28 said:


> What makes Joe Millionaire get the judges nod above the other?


I don't know but the first thing that strikes me is the length of his neck! Could he be "heads above the rest?" 

This is an interesting thread - I was not familiar with "pacing" either. My Jake - definately NOT a show dog used to almost criss cross his front paws when coming toward you. Talk about a funny gait! Yikes!


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

What are some factors to keep in mind as a novice in conformation showing about co-owning a show pup with a well-established breeder? What needs to be in the contract?


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Before co-owning with a breeder, make sure that ALL details of the contract our outlined and in writing.
Things to consider are: Is the co-ownership in name only and the breeder is to sign off once the dog is either finished, or for whatever reason is either unable to or clearances fail? Is the price for a co-ownership less than owning outright? How much "control" does the breeder maintain? Who is responsible for what costs. Clearance issues - "what if" a clearance fails? Are there breeding restrictions? Does the breeder expect either a puppy or a litter back, OR stud services (how many, or for how long). Will the breeder sign off once s/he has a puppy/litter back...) If you are a novice, what mentoring will the breeder provide? Hash it all out. If you are uncomfortable, or do not understand the terms, ask that you be allowed to have a third party that you trust go over it with you before agreeing to it.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Who pays for showing? Handling fees? If it is a bitch, who will whelp the litter? If the non-custodial owner whelps the litter, how long will the bitch reside with her? Does it make a difference in the number of puppies "owed" based on who whelps the litter? If stud services are owed, how many? Do you have the right to say no? How are stud fees from other bitch owners to be handled?

I don't co-own anymore. I sell bitches outright and ask for a puppy or two back, depending on the selling price. Males too are sold outright, but I may ask for a breeding or two, depending on selling price. I have only gotten "burned" a couple of times. And neither time did I question the quality of the home the dog is in, just their committment to me and to showing.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

This is a boy puppy on the West coast while I am on the east coast. The puppy would live with us as a family dog, but go to them for showing/finishing. No idea about what to stand up for in terms of breeding litters under their names and how many. Here is one of my most major dumb questions : can a valuable co-owned show puppy have fun with us like our pet dogs:go on hikes, swim in the lake, visit first grade, play in the sprinkler? Can he be a pet and go to soccer games/English class?


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## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

Ljilly28 said:


> can a valuable co-owned show puppy have fun with us like our pet dogs:go on hikes, swim in the lake, visit first grade, play in the sprinkler? Can he be a pet and go to soccer games/English class?


Of course with any dog any type of excessive, uncontrolled, or forced exercise/activity is a no no. Goldens are a Sporting dog and if they can't do what they were bred do without worry of dysplasia or early joint problems its probably something not worth breeding. That is certainly not a sound dog and certainly not something you want passed on. My dogs go swimming, go to football games, go with me horseback riding, play with the hose and in the pool, play on the hay bales and manure piles and of course chase the ball. They are dogs... sporting dogs and they are certainly watched and monitored but are not fussed over. Puppies I am more careful with they are not biked and don't come quading but most other things they do. So within reason just use common sense 

Any news on the puppy? or is it still kinda up in the air?


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Is this a ring tail?


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

I'vve always thought a ring tail made a complete ring. Some goldens do have a tail that curves to one side or the other (maybe like a sabre), and in some the very tip of the tail curves. It would affect a conformation dog depending on how noticeable it is. I would assume that it would also be supposed to affect the dog's ability to swim, since the tail serves as a "rudder."

That said (and slightly OT), I have seen many dogs with very gay tails swim and retriever, and their ability to swim and steer themselves did not seem to be affected by the gay tail.


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## moverking (Feb 26, 2007)

FlyingQuizini said:


> You mean I won't be made to be a good Christian soldier while in the ring with my dog? *wink* Even if I'm there on Sundays? *double wink*


Oh, Steph, I'll say a few 'Acts of Contrition' for you...not

Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa :curtain:


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I would love to see a photo of a ring tail bc I don't know exactly what it is compared to a gay tail!


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

I'm not sure it is all that different from an extreme gay tail.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

If you scroll down, they show some illustrations of a gay tail:

http://www.apbtconformation.com/NEECF.htm

This site has some of the best pictures describing a standard that I have ever seen!

A Goldens tail should be carried level off his topline, or slightly above that. 

"Carried with merry action, level or with some moderate upward curve; never curled over back nor between legs."

I usually consider tails to be acceptable that are carried anywhere from level to about 45 degrees. 45 to 60 degrees are "happy" tails and can still be acceptable although not ideal and should be faulted depending upon the degree, but as you get closer to 90 degrees, you are definitely in gay tail territory.

Gay tails can be straight or curved. I actually bred a few way back when that curled over and touched the dogs back-ick! I have also seen dogs whose tails curved to the side to the point that they were a sideways ring tail! Unattractive and incorrect, and difficult to breed out of a line. It took me years to get rid of high/gay tails.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Wow- thanks for that site. Very helpful!


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