# How does one become a reputable breeder?



## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

For me it's more than having complete clearances & breeding to another dog w/ titles. Are you a member of your local GR club? That would be a good first place to start in finding a mentor. Do you do anything w/ your golden--active in conformation or obedience or field or agility? Have you put any titles on your girl? Do you know what her strengths are? weaknesses? what characteristics are you trying to maintain or increase and which ones are you trying to stay away from? do you know how to research pedigrees & find the best match to your girl's pedigree? what does the clearance history look like behind your girl?

So much thought should go into breeding & it's great that your asking questions now. I would highly recommend finding a mentor first (who's active in your GR club) and get involved w/ your own girl so you can gain more insight as to whether or not she really should be bred--needs to be more of a reason than she passed her clearances. 

In addition, are you ready to deal w/ any medical emergencies? How will you socialize the pups?


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## rtgoldens (May 25, 2015)

I have contacted the local club to get more involved and meet people around here. I'd love to do field or agility with her. She's only seven months so I just started researching pedigrees... This is where I'm a newbie and having questions. She's just everything you think of when you hear golden retriever, both physical and mental, and I'd love to see her pass that on. From researching, her confirmation looks correct to me. Her head is feminine (but within normal) and I'd like to see her paired with a stud that has a blocker head type, but that is the only trait that I'd like to see enhanced so far. I've attached some pictures. A more knowledgeable mentor is really what I need. And yes we are prepared financially for emergencies. Thank you for your advice!


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## rtgoldens (May 25, 2015)

Sorry...your post was loaded and I forgot socializing. The pups would be whelped in our home (and stay in our home, not kennels) We live on a six acre farm with goats, chickens, a horse and 3 cats. We have three young children that would be involved with the pups daily. We have fields, a stream, woods, and plenty of friends who come to visit. It's the perfect setting to give the pups the right start in life.


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## SwimDog (Sep 28, 2014)

I'm impressed - my puppy is 7 months old and I only have a vague idea of his behavioral and structural strengths/weaknesses as an adult - there's so much more maturing to happen in the next few years.


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## rtgoldens (May 25, 2015)

That's why I said "so far". I'm learning...please don't give me a sarcastic "I'm impressed". She has a lot of growing to do and I know that. I have a lot of learning to do and I know that as well. I posted here to honestly gain insight and knowledge and I said I wasn't an expert at everything. Please don't put me down...did you even read my original post? That's exactly what I'm trying to avoid here by asking questions. Thank you.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

There are a couple of FB pages out there that will help, though they won't replace an actual mentor. Is your girl's breeder in the picture? Can she/he help guide you? Thankfully you have quite a while to go before Nala will be able to have complete clearances. Can't stress enough about getting out there & involved w/ your pup. I'm currently searching for a pup & joined my local GR club, volunteering for various events. The people I'm meeting & the information/mentoring they're providing is invaluable--definitely helping me figure things out.


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## rtgoldens (May 25, 2015)

Do you happen to know any of the FB group names? I'm waiting to hear back from our local club. I'm excited to meet others around here with the same enthusiasm for the breed  Thank you!


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Spend some time in the how to choose a breeder/puppy section--if you already aren't full read up on the basic clearances & when they're accomplished, that will give you some reading to do as well. I see too many newbies, looking to breed their first pet at a year of age on prelims which absolutely are not clearances. Girls especially aren't ready to be mamma's that early (even if mother nature allows it).


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Here are some of the FB groups

https://www.facebook.com/groups/GoldenRetrieverDiscussiionGroup/?fref=nf

https://www.facebook.com/groups/145993362142551/

https://www.facebook.com/groups/CanineBreederEvaluations/?ref=browser

https://www.facebook.com/groups/CanineHealthBreedingPuppyCare/?ref=browser

These are good starting points.

Also, studying this will give you a better understanding of the standard 

A Study of the Golden Retriever

Lots of good info here

Books, Videos, CD's on Golden Retirevers

And here

www.grca.org

It takes a lot of time and effort to be a good breeder and longer to build a reputation. Dog breeding is easy to do poorly and very hard to do well.


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## rtgoldens (May 25, 2015)

Thank you both! (I agree about the prelim certs...they say 2 years for a reason)


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Have you spoke to your girl's breeder? Many breeder's are willing to mentor newbies. An experienced breeder would have great insight where to go pedigree wise when the time comes to look for a possible stud. 
Your girl looks very pretty in the photos you have posted but as you said she still has a lot of maturing, physically and mentally, to do.


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## SwimDog (Sep 28, 2014)

I apologize - I didn't mean for my comment to be interpreted that way. I'm constantly amazed at what the puppies and young dogs and handlers here are doing - I always feel so far behind with where my young dog and I are at by comparison. Lots of people seem to know a lot about who their dogs are early on - I'm not experienced enough to identify various traits and pieces that are 'who' a dog is vs. a temporary phase.

Golden retriever regional specialties and the national specialty may help you make connections and lead to good resources. Assisting at various tests/trials/events can be good learning opportunities - especially something like the CCA - http://grca.org/events/cca/


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

skylavaulter said:


> Every time I ask one I'm looked as a backyard breeder who has no knowledge and therefore no business breeding. I do know a lot, but not all. How does one become reputable without getting labeled as a backyard breeder? I want to do this for the breed. If I make money, great. If not, that's ok too. People aren't born quality breeders. They learn how to become one.


Big thing (in my brain) is getting out of the house. Don't rely heavily on online sources for networking. Get out there. Make yourself and your dog visible at local training clubs and breed clubs. You don't have to do conformation in order to breed, but within reason - people are not going to want their boys used by people who have no "references". 

I know me personally, I don't know if I'm going to breed my younger boy - but basically while I've had a lot of people asking me, there has only been maybe 2 people that I've seriously considered at all. And these people are people who have very established programs and have been around for ages. I think what goes through my brain is I don't want people that I would buy puppies from thinking that I would let my dogs be bred anywhere and everywhere. It's something I'm very nervous about and a huge reason why I have not been too eager to jump into letting my dog be bred - and he has full clearances, is champion pointed, and is slowly adding obedience titles at the other end of his name. 

Not everyone is going to be as protective and cautious as me when it comes to letting their boys be used for stud, but I would gather it would help if you get out there and make sure people know who you are and what you want to do. I definitely do feel that we need more people in the breed breeding the right way and participating. 

Problem does happen that people put all their eggs in the same basket and run into problems (failed clearances, behavioral issues that show, etc) and aren't willing to give up their dream of breeding that dog. It isn't a given that you are going to be completely lucky and have full clearances with the first dog you own and decide to breed. One of my friends (who I strongly respect and her dogs are fantastic) had 7 dogs before she finally had one that she was willing to breed. The others were kept or place in pet homes due to them not getting all their clearances. 

I'd say that is a really good reason to not be so focused on breeding as the main thing right now. Enjoy your girl right now, get out there and really find an activity that both you and she enjoy, make friends within the breed, find local mentors who in emergency situations will be there for you to help with puppies.... after 12 months do the eyes and heart clearances (ophthalmologist and cardiologist).... and after 24 months do the hips and elbows. After you get all these clearances lined up and they are all good, start getting serious about breeding then. 

At 7 months - your girl is still growing and there's a lot of time ahead of you. Obviously, now is the time to do all the training classes and activities which get both of you OUT THERE and out of the house. 

It isn't a cheap hobby - and most people spend more in participating in dog events and breeding than they get in - unless they own a ton of dogs and breed every chance they get (which makes them questionable in the eyes of a lot of people). 

I had a good laugh this past week chatting with my new boss about dog shows. She was stunned that I actually "pay" to participate. And she was asking if there's cash rewards or stuff like that. <= And seriously, in all the years I've been doing obedience with the dogs and so on, I've only earned maybe $40-50 back in prizes. And that was really oddball. Most of the time, it's money out the door. 

I don't say this to my boss, but definitely have joked with friends that I have to have a full time job just to pay for all the dog stuff. 

*** Other thing, btw. Obvious, but....

Make sure she has full registration and make sure her breeder is on board with you breeding her.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Megora said:


> *** Other thing, btw. Obvious, but....
> 
> Make sure she has full registration and make sure her breeder is on board with you breeding her.


Good point. The reputable breeders I know would not sell a bitch on full registration to an unknown/untested newbie. At least not without a co-ownership at the minimum.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Is this by chance you?

Rose Tree Golden Retrievers - Our Dogs

If so, I do think you have put the cart far in front of the horse. One of the problems I see with newbies is they get so excited about breeding that they forget the need for a good foundation. If you have never had a litter, how are you going to guide "foster families" through the process?

I think you need to slow down, get a good mentor, make sure your boy and a girl are at least capable of a CCA, earn at least the basic 4 clearances, and study clearances and pedigrees in depth.

I do know one person who was much like you, set her web page and was preparing to take deposits on her first litter. Unfortunately, neither her boy or her girl passed clearances. Kudos to her, she slowed down, got a good mentor and, in a couple of years, may have her first litter.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

If that is your website it states that you will be breeding Nala this winter.  She will be no where near 2 years old... :no:

Edited to add: your site states that you anticipate a 2016 spring litter from Nala. Which puts her at what...around16 months when the puppies are born? Hmmmm...

Here's something straight from your site:

"OFA Hips / Elbows / Heart will be completed prior to Nala breeding this winter. We have no doubt this girl will score well"

How will she have clearances if she'll only be a year old?


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I hope you so everything suggested to you in the wise comments above before breeding your dog. 

I want to add from my own experiences what will you do if Nala or the pups have a serious emergency, and either she dies and you have to raise the pups or you need to spend half a year's salary to save them all? Breeding is something that sounds fun and easy until the girl you love is facing an emergency c section on a Sunday night. Are you really prepared to make your foster families take this risk with their girl pets ?? If so , why? It is one thing to take this risk for your own dog, but for someone elses?
I cant stress enough how many different ways it can all go south with a litter. 3/4th of the breeders I know have had one disaster or another. My state has a lemon law so if you sell a sick puppy, you can get in big trouble. A BYB breeder in my state just had 9 pups, 8 with heart murmurs- what do you do then?


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

Right now this breed needs younger people to get into it and to continue some of these lines that older breeders will be retiring from.

My goal was to always be a reputable breeder, but to tell you the truth, after hearing and reading so many horror stories, it really scares me.

I am lucky enough to have the opportunity to co-own my female with me breeder. I am at my breeder's place quite often to make sure my puppy is being trained and socialized properly. I use her vet for this one dog, and she has coordinated the vets for clearances. We are also showing her in conformation. IF and that is an IF we do breed her ( I am thinking we won't even think about it until she is at least three years old ) everything will happen at my breeder's house. She has thirty years experience, she knows the lines she will breed and not breed to. She will be making these very important decisions. In the meantime, my 12 year old daughter is learning right along with me. Who knows what the future might bring for my daughter...


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

You ask how to become a reputable breeder.... I believe good programs are a side effect of being a competitor. By the time your bitch is 2 and old enough for clearances, you could have a CD and JH or WC on her easily enough, if you are willing to work at it. You can get her CCA and LEARN about her structure after she's 18 months old and her evaluations will tell you much about what she needs. 
If that is your site- and I hope it is not- you are already on the path to byb. The foster program is written to make it sound oh so great and is really just a way for you to take someone's family pet and make two litters from her.. and not even have to do the work! There's no one in my world - the world of reputable breeders- who would ever consider the sales pitch on the 'foster page' on that site. 
And honesty goes a long way. The truth of it is - if that's your site- you don't have a 'rose tree way' that a proven puppy rearing method, you don't have any experience at all (that, or you are not telling the truth in the OP) and I think a truthful website in your case could say something like, I want to be a good breeder. I want to do a, b, c and I'm working with mentors, learning... learn with me. I'm doing it all the right way. 
At leas t then, you won't be lying to your puppy people. That site reads like a MLm scheme. written by a big multi level marketing pro...who has been doing it for many many years with much experience. There's nothing wrong with being new. There is something wrong with deceit. You look like a nice, clean cut gal, and you have the opportunity to start out right. Please do. 
I'm guessing, since you put your kennel name on your two dogs (if this is your site, that is) that you did not get them from anyone who competes. If you want to make puppies that are correct and that fit the standard work-wise, and whose pedigrees are not totally lacking titles on the dam side of things, go get a title or two on your dogs. Reputable breeders look at the goal of not having a hole in the pedigree (a bitch without titles). You're probably (assuming since you named your bitch without a kennel name on her) looking at a pretty holey pedigree already, so do your part for your puppies to fill it in with the one animal you can. And let the foster family idea go, it is not a good one. If your puppy people can't afford to buy a puppy, and need to raise two litters up for you to give them one, they are not going to be able to feed her well or get her vet care.
The little dog puppy on the site is cute = but stud dogs are a dime a dozen, you are far ahead using a finished titled dog who complements your girl. Your puppy dog will never be the best dog for her. That is another mistake new breeders make, they get a boy and don't do anything with him but breed him to every bitch they own. And like your girl, he carries your kennel name so if he has a titled dam, I'll be shocked and awed. Breeding programs with nothing to be proud of don't insist on their own kennel name being on all puppies. You're in an area rich with hobbyists, find a club, be a sponge. Don't jump on the breeding bandwagon so quickly. Learn the breed first!
And if that wasn't your site, go look at it and see what you should not do.


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## Coopsmom (Jan 13, 2015)

skylavaulter said:


> That's why I said "so far". I'm learning...please don't give me a sarcastic "I'm impressed". She has a lot of growing to do and I know that. I have a lot of learning to do and I know that as well. I posted here to honestly gain insight and knowledge and I said I wasn't an expert at everything. Please don't put me down...did you even read my original post? That's exactly what I'm trying to avoid here by asking questions. Thank you.


As it seems the website mentioned in subsequent posts is yours, I hope that you are sincere in stating you have a lot to learn. But, I do question that given the detail on your site and your stated intentions to breed your dog. For the sake of all things golden, please listen and follow the amazing guidance you have already been offered by the people in this forum. It is way too soon for you to be thinking of breeding your 7 month old girl.


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## rtgoldens (May 25, 2015)

When we first started thinking of breeding, I joined a few golden retriever groups online. It seemed that a few local successful breeders were getting pre-lim certs for their girls and having them whelp a litter at around 15-18 months and then yearly afterwards. I've been researching the hell out of all of this and decided weeks ago that I'd rather do it right and wait until she's two and has her actual clearances. I just hadn't updated that in the website. We also decided that the male pup we have is not going to breed - I have to fix that on the site too.
I should not have made the website live yet, perhaps. I honestly didn't think anyone would see it yet... I was just excited to get SOMETHING started and the website seemed like a fun project to start with.
I won't mention any names, but there is a great, well respected breeder near me who I've become friendly with and she started using the foster breeding program to grow her name from the beginning. I thought it seemed like a good idea to do the same, since she's the closest breeder model that I have to go by, and it works for her, and I liked the idea of each dog having a family of their own instead of a kennel environment. After reading all of your comments, I see the other side of that...I don't want to be responsible for another family's grief if something were to happen during labor, etc. It's one thing to be responsible for my dogs and my family if anything happens. I can't imagine having that responsibility to another family on top of that. It's easy to see all the positives when I see a model that works. Thank you for shedding light on the negative - honestly. I am going to take down the website and work on it. If and when Nala passes her clearances, we will go from there. Like I said from the beginning, I'm trying to learn. I'm a very passionate person and I guess I've gotten the ball rolling to far too soon. I didn't mean to come off as "deceitful" by any means, to anyone on here. I was just trying to build a nice looking website that would be ready to go if / when we are. My apologies to all.


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## forgop (May 26, 2015)

I'll just say my piece and it may not be popular by any means, but here goes:

First and foremost, having a website that discusses the intention to breed before she has even most likely had her first heat cycle is a huge red flag to me as someone that's in the market to buy a puppy. Your website should have pictures of accomplishments such as obedience, confirmation, etc and really nothing more. 

Second, as someone currently researching the market and "reputable" breeders, I'm amazed at how some breeders come off to prospective clients. In my instance, I would like an English Cream golden. I'm amazed at the number of breeders I've seen that have 6+ dogs and plan for 4+ litters per year. If you do the math, the potential for $15k+ per litter and $60k+ year is quite attainable. Amazingly, some of these breeders specifically state all puppies are sold on limited registrations only, may or may not have health clearances posted, and have 6 or more dogs in which they either have a litter on the ground, one in the oven, planned for the next cycle, and even multiple litters at the same time. I don't care who you are, but I think it's completely irresponsible to be a puppy factory all while proclaiming to be following the ethics. If you're breeding that many litters, you're not doing it for the "betterment" of the breed, but running a profit center. I get that you have expenses for your purchase price, health clearances, etc, but many of these breeders have their own studs, so they're not paying out stud fees and they're not racking up expenses confirmation showing, paying handlers, or putting through obedience titles. To these breeders (and there are a LOT of them with fancy websites), you can guarantee they in no way want to help you become a breeder because you then become more competition to them. They breed these girls until they start having smaller litters and then retire them to sell off to a companion home for something newer and more profitable. 

A true reputable breeder would mentor you. Odds are you likely had a stud picked out when you took this girl home and breeder knew about it as openly as you discuss it. I believe a good breeder would only sell a full registration would only do so under certain conditions/provisions as stated in a contract, such as co-ownership, titles/certifications/health clearances obtained prior to breeding. I'm not all that well versed in selling a dog under a full registration and how you can limit the registration with the AKC until they are met, but a contract with some meat behind it would state that failing to adhere to specific terms and conditions of said contract would result in the buyer's ownership rights being terminated and giving the means for the breeder to take possession. 

But for the reasons I stated above, the odds of you finding someone willing to do the scenario I've outlined, you're better off being a quick $2-3k+ sale than actually investing their time in you as a would-be breeder/competitor.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I know a gal who 3.5 years ago was about where you are now. She, like you, is a lovely woman who was very excited about her new venture and she reached out to every breeder in the SE... everyone told her the same thing. Don't breed that boy, don't breed the girl you have until you get her clearances and a CCA at least. Start showing in some venue, any venue, and learn the breed. Well, she had already bred her older girl to the very young boy, and had plans to get his eyes and heart done at an upcoming cluster. I pleaded with her to at least to do her pregnant girl's eyes and heart there too. She did, thankfully. She also realized she had jumped the gun at that first show cluster. Her eyes told her that her girl really wasn't a breed-improving bitch. She took down her early website, stopped in her tracks really... sold her puppies when they arrived and used the $ to buy herself a bitch who likely could do what she hoped to do and do it right. She kept showing the boy now and then but did not stop going to shows, where she started helping owner-handlers... she learned to groom and handle dogs. When her bitch puppy was 6 mo old, she went to 2 of a 4 day cluster. She won her class one day, and she was encouraged. Next cluster, she won every day. I love to watch her on fb, since her girl now is in open and I think has almost singled out. More than anything, I see a person who, when she does breed her bitch, will breed her with titles, clearances, and the breeder and community behind her, all willing to help.... she's a lovely person and I am certain she'd tell you that her early haste when she thought she knew how to breed Goldens was premature. 
I'm not sure who your local breeder is that uses the foster program, but I promise you that whoever it is may be successful in their own world but would not meet the peer review thumbs up. It's just not a right livelihood way to begin a breeding program. 
Please do get involved in the dog fancy. You're young and energetic and we need more new people to carry on as we old dinosaurs grow weary! Remember, a reputable breeder doesn't just breed. That is a side-effect of competing, since a reputable breeder wants to have bred their own competitor. It's not really about making money.... more about trying to come somewhere close to breaking even.


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## forgop (May 26, 2015)

Prism Goldens said:


> It's not really about making money.... more about trying to come somewhere close to breaking even.


If you produce 1-2 litters per year, obtain all health clearances, and have expenses for showing/training/etc, you're breaking even. When you have 4-6+ litters per year and not a single dog you own has a conformation or obedience title, you're nothing but a high end puppy mill at best. 

But by all means, I'd love for ANY breeder to tell me why producing so many litters is for any other reason than profit.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

forgop said:


> If you produce 1-2 litters per year, obtain all health clearances, and have expenses for showing/training/etc, you're breaking even. When you have 4-6+ litters per year and not a single dog you own has a conformation or obedience title, you're nothing but a high end puppy mill at best.
> 
> But by all means, I'd love for ANY breeder to tell me why producing so many litters is for any other reason than profit.


Recommend starting a new thread on this topic or searching for the other threads that already address this. Hopefully, we can keep this thread on topic & get a "newbie" pointed in the right direction.


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## Coopsmom (Jan 13, 2015)

skylavaulter said:


> .... It seemed that a few local *successful breeders* were getting pre-lim certs for their girls and having them whelp a litter at around 15-18 months and then yearly afterwards...... I won't mention any names, but there is a *great, well respected breeder* near me who I've become friendly with and she started using the foster breeding program to grow her name from the beginning.........


I eliminated some of your posts to emphasize a point in my response. Your description of "successful" and "great, well respected" breeders seems to be based on a very limited understanding of what makes a breeder successful, great and respected. This forum is filled with many long term golden retriever lovers and breeders. You have heard from some of them and they have generously shared their perspective and suggestions. 
You have not answered some of their direct questions including whether the breeder you purchased your dog from is involved in this. My guess is that he/she is not - OR - that he/she is breeding in ways that reputable breeders would disagree with. It may be that your 7 month old girl is a potential breeding candidate but there are a lot of unknowns. Before you get your heart set on breeding her, i hope you'll go back to "square one" and find a really good mentor. You need a LOT of information about your girl in terms of her background, her parents background, etc. In other words, it's not just about your bitch - or the stud - it's also about their background(s) and these should be well researched.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Two vocabulary things first...

It is conformation. Misspelling it is not going to put forward the idea that you have any knowledge on the subject. Honestly, I am probably the WORST person at spelling but, my brain screams when I see that spelled wrong.

Hobby Breeder - this one confussed a lot of people but with in the fancy,it is commonly understood that the "Hobby" is dog sport, which ever you choose, conformation, field, obedience, agility, etc. Breeding happens because the hobby breeder is looking to get their next competition partner. Breeding is not the hobby when you are a serious hobby breeder. 



skylavaulter said:


> She's just everything you think of when you hear golden retriever, both physical and mental, and I'd love to see her pass that on. From researching, her confirmation looks correct to me. Her head is feminine (but within normal) and I'd like to see her paired with a stud that has a blocker head type, but that is the only trait that I'd like to see enhanced so far. I've attached some pictures. A more knowledgeable mentor is really what I need.


Okay, when some one is new and I mean very new to dogs, unless they come from some other animal sport arena like horses for example, they usually can only see size, color and heads. The fact that above you talk about the head being the only thing you can see that needs improvement and the term used to describe the desired change is blocky, (a term commonly used by pet seekers and BYBs) instead of naming the specific part of her head you would like to improve (ear set, eye set, breath of muzzle, back skull, fill, bite, stop, etc.) leads me to beleive that you are sorely lacking in a structural/standard education and if that is the case, how can you know her conformation is correct. 

It sounds like you simply do not have an eye for dogs yet. That eye for dogs comes easier to some than others but it can be developed that is what getting out competing, doing a CCA, getting your hands on dogs, and getting a mentor can really help do for you. I know I am still working on this.

I will echo what others have said in that you are way cart before the horse here. And take this with the understanding that I am in the process of trying to become a reputable hobby breeder one day. I have had three top picks (not commonly the case for a newbie) from another serious hobby breeder. Of the three, for some health certification reason or another and over 3.5 years, I finally have my first girl to pass all her clearances. In that time I have completed a CCA, two CGCs, two international championships, two UKC championships, one UKC Grand Championship, one AKC Championship all owner handled and 4 points with several major reserve toward an AKC Championship on another. I could breed my 2 year old that has her clearances, but I want to give her a fair shot at getting her AKC Championship so we are headed to shows instead. I have yet to breed a litter and honestly I will never make back the money I spent to get to where I am today, but that is not the piont to breeding for me, it is getting a puppy who I can go on with. 

This is my road to becoming a reputable hobby breeder, yours does not have to be the same, but where you are now is not going to likely inspire trust, confidence and a feeling of belonging with the breeders worth emulating. The great news is you are here asking this question and that can be the hardest step. 

Find a great mentor. Here is my suggestion...figure out what you want to do, conformation, agility, what ever it is. Go out to those competitions repeatedly and be willing to travel. Look to see who is great, successfull and friendly, then build the relationship with them. A Golden person is ideal, but don't rule out other breeds. I have a great friend in Shiba's and it is enlightening the topics we share on. Most important though is to get out there. Learning is uncomfortable, don't give up and keep trying.


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## forgop (May 26, 2015)

SheetsSM said:


> forgop said:
> 
> 
> > If you produce 1-2 litters per year, obtain all health clearances, and have expenses for showing/training/etc, you're breaking even. When you have 4-6+ litters per year and not a single dog you own has a conformation or obedience title, you're nothing but a high end puppy mill at best.
> ...


I get that. Just stating the obvious why there won't be people calling non-stop and offering a lot of help. If breeders get this kind of questioning up front, there's no doubt they move on down the waiting list-unless they have 4 litters on the ground and not enough homes for everyone.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

If you can join your local club, you will hopefully find a mentor. There are some really really good breeders in your area. If I remember correctly (one of my dearest friends is from Media although she is in Lancaster now) you are fairly close to Philadelphia.

I echo the sentiment that we really do need more reputable hobby breeders (as LJack defined it) in the sport today.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

And once you join a Golden club (or get involved with a Golden club) help out in their events. You learn SOOOOOOO much. I helped at a CCA and was assigned to be Betty Gay's steward so I got to hear what she was telling all the other owners and then I got to have lunch with the evaluators. It was a priceless experience.

I also help out at obedience and agility trials, just volunteer they will teach you all you need to know about what to do. As a newbie you will have to prove yourself, but once you do you are in like Flynn.


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## rtgoldens (May 25, 2015)

Her breeder is not involved. It was a small local breeder who sells pups at one price on limited akc and another higher price for full akc if you wish to show / compete / breed. He stacked each pup for me (we had pick of the litter) and pointed out traits of each pup and which ones he would and wouldn't pick if we wanted to go farther with her. Nala was one of two that he said had nice potential for more than just a pet home. She had more personality and was more outgoing than the other female he picked out, so we chose her. For all I know, he may have no clue what he was looking at, but at the time he seemed very knowledgeable. 

I spent a good solid 5 hours on the conformation *that was autocorrect on my previous post - I do know how to spell it * page on FB after someone posted the link to me here yesterday. I scrolled through months of goldens on there and after a few hours started to play "let's see if I can evaluate this dog" and test myself with the others' replies. By 2am I was STARTING to get somewhere lol. 

I reached out to Lenape Golden Retriever Club near me but my email came back undeliverable. I've requested to join their FB page, so hopefully that works out. I would LOVE to get out there with Nala and participate in some events with her. It's always intimidated me - I used to do horse shows and it always amazed me how snobby people could be. Is the dog world somewhat similar? I don't even know where I would begin with that so I'm really looking forward to getting into the local GR club. 

I truly appreciate all the helpful criticism that you've all taken the time to share with me. There's a lot more that I have to complete and learn before taking the next step and that is exactly what I was hoping someone here could help me with. There aren't many sites that show you how to do this the right way, so I appreciate it. I'm excited to work with Nala and enjoy her in the competitive world, titles or not. She's extremely eager, intelligent, and willing to learn. I have had many dogs in my life but she holds a special place in my heart and we are very in tune with one another.


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## rtgoldens (May 25, 2015)

SheetsSM - you had sent me a few pms - thank you - it won't let me reply to you until I have 15 posts for some reason. I appreciate all of your advice from the start.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

> *How does one become a reputable breeder?*


Well, you're going to find that no matter what you do somebody will still call you a puppymill or BYB even if you only breed just one litter. You can't and won't be able to please everybody. If you can't handle that, you won't be a breeder for very long.

You should undertake some type of organized activity with your dog. Through your participation, you will see LOTS of dogs (This is important). Seeing lots of dogs helps you to learn how to see the subtle differences between what makes a good dog, a so so dog and a poor dog, and that in turn helps you to see the shortcomings in your own dog so you can select a mate that compliments your dog.

Mentors will educate but will leave the decisions up to you. The decisions are yours and yours alone. You will have successes and you will have failures, it isn't a perfect world and there are things that are beyond your control. How you deal with things that crop up along the way matters. 

You should have good reasons for the breeding decisions you make. "Why" you decided to put these two dogs together should be clear in your mind. "What" makes this a pairing you want to undertake.

A good reputation takes years to develop. It is earned, not given.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

It looks like the Lenape Golden Retriever club is having a picnic with dog games this Sunday and they give a contact person or if that is too intimidating they are having a show-n-go in July that you can go to and/or help with and they have a contact person for that on their events calendar.

Some dog-show people are snobby, some are not, just like any other hobby population. Hang out with the friendly people, learn from the knowledgeable people and don't take things personally.he 

Oh and be patient, the people running these clubs and events are VERY busy people, your understanding that will get you a great distance in being accepted by the powers that be.


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## Coopsmom (Jan 13, 2015)

skylavaulter said:


> Her breeder is not involved. It was a small local breeder who sells pups at one price on limited akc and another higher price for full akc if you wish to show / compete / breed.....


I know you dearly love your puppy, but please do some research into her background. Do her parents, grandparents, etc have the minimum 4 clearances? What do you know about their health issues? The fact that your breeder simply charged a higher price for your girl and is NOT involved raises red flags for me about his breeding practice. In your research, you may find that there are things about your pup's "pedigree" that are undesirable. It would be good to know this NOW before getting too attached to the idea that you will be breeding her.
I would also encourage you to scour these pages and get a sense of who some of the reputable breeders are in the Golden world. Check out their websites and look at how they discuss their breeding practice, the types of contacts they sell with, their screening processes, clearances, etc. Not all reputable breeders have websites (and many people with websites are NOT reputable) but when you come across the sites for those who are you will see a lot of excellent information.
Are you familiar with the K9 Data website? it's a starting point for you to do some research on your own dog.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

skylavaulter said:


> I used to do horse shows and it always amazed me how snobby people could be. Is the dog world somewhat similar?
> 
> I truly appreciate all the helpful criticism that you've all taken the time to share with me. There's a lot more that I have to complete and learn before taking the next step and that is exactly what I was hoping someone here could help me with. There aren't many sites that show you how to do this the right way, so I appreciate it. I'm excited to work with Nala and enjoy her in the competitive world, titles or not. She's extremely eager, intelligent, and willing to learn. I have had many dogs in my life but she holds a special place in my heart and we are very in tune with one another.


Yes, as with anything there are nice/open people and snobby/closed people. I will say, it may be worth the investment to be on good terms with "snobby" people. Sometimes they surprise you by just being focused, or recently burnt by another newby, or are actually very nice if approached but no matter what, you can learn from everyone at this point. No matter if they talk to you or not, watch. 

I am glad you want to get out with her. If you do want to do conformation, you an see if there are any handling classes near by. Also, AKC matches, IABCA international shows and UKC are great for getting your feet wet. I also fully recommend the CCA but you will have to see if there is one close once your girl is over 18 months. 

One more thought, everyone has that special/heart dog and that is great. It is very common the first show/breeding dog you get does not end up being the best start for a program. I have heard this from other folks repeatedly and I am an example of this. My first girl Jinx is my love, she is a finished AKC/UKC/International Champion and she will never be bred. It is okay to love them and compete with them, but when it comes to breeding, you have to set emotion and attachment aside and do what is best for the breed and the puppies you produce. If that ends up being the judicious breeding of your girl, great. If not, you have to be able to make the tough choice and that is a hallmark of great breeding.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

How far are you from Wilmington, Ohio? The golden retriever national specialty will be there last week Sept, first week Oct. If you can pick a couple events to watch and learn from, and even mingle with the crowd, it would be a great learning opportunity.

2015 GRCA National Specialty | Wilmington, OH

Personally I have found the golden community a lot friendlier than some of the other breeds. My club is very friendly and always looking for new people, so do not give up on your local club. If they are anything like ours, yes, we do have website issues from time to time, and because everybody is volunteers, it might take a while for us to know and to fix it.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

My opinion is different. I say, do your best, get out there with Nala and compete in something, and have your first litter. Not everyone starts at the top of the breeding world. Sometimes you start where you start, and find out if you love it or hate it, and go from there. I see "reputable" breeders breaking all the rules, then criticizing people they don't know for doing the same things. As long as you're headed in the right direction, I think it doesn't matter where you start, and stud owners will understand. Indeed, there are some stunning stud dogs out there whose owners will breed to anyone who pays the fee.

Dog show people suck. Pay no attention to them. (I'm one of them, so take that for what it's worth. Lol!  ) I see "reputable" breeders doing things that horrify me, and then they have the gall to condemn others for lesser wrongs. Blows my mind. Ignore them and enjoy breeding your girl. Even if those breeders wouldn't breed her, everyone starts somewhere and every dog needs improving, and no one ever breeds the perfect dog, so I say do your best and be ethical and ignore those high on the mountain who would take all the joy out of your new hobby.

Some of the best breeders I know started with a "BYB" litter, and when they caught the bug and learned more, their breeding program improved. I think your girl's head is lovely, and I'd like to see you put a title on her and get her clearances. You have a long time before you breed her, but it's great that you're thinking about it now.

We need waaaaaay more good breeders than we have, and I don't want to discourage anyone who wants to get into it. Go for it, do your best, never stop learning, and do what you love.


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## Leslie B (Mar 17, 2011)

DanaRuns said:


> My opinion is different. I say, do your best, get out there with Nala and compete in something, and have your first litter. Not everyone starts at the top of the breeding world. Sometimes you start where you start, and find out if you love it or hate it, and go from there. I see "reputable" breeders breaking all the rules, then criticizing people they don't know for doing the same things. As long as you're headed in the right direction, I think it doesn't matter where you start, and stud owners will understand. Indeed, there are some stunning stud dogs out there whose owners will breed to anyone who pays the fee.
> 
> Dog show people suck. Pay no attention to them. (I'm one of them, so take that for what it's worth. Lol!  ) I see "reputable" breeders doing things that horrify me, and then they have the gall to condemn others for lesser wrongs. Blows my mind. Ignore them and enjoy breeding your girl. Even if those breeders wouldn't breed her, everyone starts somewhere and every dog needs improving, and no one ever breeds the perfect dog, so I say do your best and be ethical and ignore those high on the mountain who would take all the joy out of your new hobby.
> 
> ...


 
Absolutely great answer!!! We need more breeders that want to breed - not brag about how few litters they have produced in the last decade. We need more breeders who want to learn and improve and do it better. We all started somewhere and if I would have listened to the first breeder I ever talked to I would have never even owned a purebred dog much less competed with one or bred a litter.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I agree as well. We need more breeders who do it right. But I also think that especially starting where OP is starting, new, knowing no one and emulating a breeder who does the foster thing, she'd be far better off going to shows, doing some venue- doesn't matter which- and titling her dog. Get her clearances and then, yes, have that litter. But not with the puppy dog she's got - find a boy who fills in the gaps the bitch has. 
The national- what a great opportunity! Come see me there- I'll be at the CCA table both Monday and Thursday, Your girl won't be old enough for that CCA event but for sure get her in one so you know what she's lacking (there's more to it than just what you see)and find a stud dog who can fill it in for her. Keep a bitch from the litter, grow her up and do even more with her...


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## rtgoldens (May 25, 2015)

I appreciate all of your input and advice. We are stepping back and putting breeding completely aside for now. Instead, I'm going to focus on my girl and see what classes we can have fun in together. I posted a thread over in the conformation showing area to get some advice on starting shows and a good beginner category since neither of us have done anything like this before. Our biggest achievement has been graduating intermediate puppy class haha (and I was very proud)  

Someone sent me a message asking me to evaluate myself and what I want to be as a breeder. I don't want to break the bank to get every title in the world on her, but I do feel that having some credibility behind her will only help all involved and give us an idea of whether she has the right "stuff" to produce good quality pups. I don't want to be a big, fancy top name breeder. I have a farm and three little kids to look after. Am I going to have time to travel to shows all weekend? Rarely. But I'd like to show locally and if she gets any points behind her name, that can only help if and when we do decide to breed. I have a feeling that I'm going to get hooked on the show world (i was when I showed horses as a teen) and that sometime down the line (5, 7 years) when my kids are a little older (and our pups are a bit calmer LOL!) I might end up buying a true show prospect from a reputable breeder who is deep into the show world. For now, we will get our feet wet and see what comes of it. 

Would Nala make a good mom? I think so. She's extremely nurturing to all living things around here....carried a chick around in her mouth for 10 minutes before I found her with it. Not a scratch on it - just wanted to lay there and nuzzle and love on the little bugger <3 Would we love to have pups and become breeders? I think that's an obvious yes based on my original post. But I don't want to just become another low grade breeder who still has puppies at 14 weeks old because I can't find homes for them, all because we didn't build a good name for ourselves and our dogs. The forum post has really opened my eyes and despite the backlash I received (and deservingly if I'm honest with myself) it was exactly what I needed to hear. It did not fall on deaf ears. I'm excited to switch my focus over to enjoying my dog NOW, instead of what she could do for us later. I think classes will be fun!

Oh...we decided a while ago that our male pup would not breed. He was not purchased with anything remotely impressive on his pedigree, his tail set is high, his ears are set too low, and most importantly he's turned out to be a bit shy and a bit timid in new situations. His retrieving skills are zero. He's the worst retriever in the world haha. His joys are snoring and sitting on our feet. I realized early on that regardless of the female, I would not feel comfortable passing on those traits to any future golden. We purchased him so Nala could have a companion first and foremost. Then we thought, what if we bred the two? That would be kind of cool to see them raise the litter together, and imagine a light golden and red golden's litter! But we quickly changed our minds on that as he showed us his true self.


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## jenlaur (Jun 24, 2009)

I just found this thread and read many of the posts. I am so impressed that you are taking a step back to think about this more. I am kind of in the same boat as you. I have a very handsome boy that my breeder and groomer are encouraging me to show. In addition to looks he has the best temperament. He would make awesome babies.

I know that in order to breed Kona that he needs to have his championship and all clearances. I have shown him 3 times. He is only 10 months old and we are now taking a break from showing until he gets a little older. He got a lot of attention and compliments, which was encouraging. I learned a lot about the show world. So good, some not so good. Showing dogs in conformation is not for the weak at heart! You have to have some thick skin. You also have to learn to just smile when people do or say things you don't like.

I'm not sure I like the conformation world. If we do decide to breed I guess we'll have to bite the bullet and do it. I can only hope he'll finish quickly. In the meantime we are working at beginner novice obedience and hope to compete in the future. We both seem to like this better. I'm also thinking about agility for him.

Good luck to you in the future with whatever you decide. Even if you only have goldens as pets you can't go wrong. They are the best!


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I have visited your site again- not sure if you are still reading this thread, but CH_Nala__ is incorrect- Int CH is the right way to indicate she has participated in international shows. CH alone is for AKC champions. 
I'm hoping you have found a mentor who will help you learn to do this the right way, 
and that you will do more than international showing, which is an easy Int Ch and mostly for practice.... it's not the competition that will teach you what you need to learn in order to become a breeder. As most of us here suggested, let breeding be your side effect of showing or competing in some AKC venue.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I agree CH is AKC CH. You must specify UKC CH , CAN CH, INT CH to be fair to your dog, your peers, and your buyers.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Just an update to this thread on Rose Tree goldens, Nala was recently bred--underaged. This forum & a slew of breeders tried to educate & show the path to becoming a reputable breeder, but I guess the desire to have puppies now won out.

Pedigree: Nala x Rocco (Ch)
Rose Tree Golden Retrievers - Litter Information


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Was going to comment on her Facebook page but it's a closed group...of course. :uhoh:


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

How disappointing. I just hate it when someone who's seemingly educated and able to be a real asset to the community becomes just another backyard breeder who only helps themselves in the pocketbook. 
I guess she never took classes, since her bitch has no obedience title. It looks like she bought a bitch puppy as well. Looks like the boy she had is gone now. 
Rose Tree- couldn't have just waited another 6 months?


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## Coopsmom (Jan 13, 2015)

Disappointing? Yes! Misleading? I think so..her website says the following:
_*04.28.16 - NAT / INT JR CH Rose Tree's Circle of Life (Nala) passed all four OFA/CERF health clearances that we test for at Rose Tree Goldens. She received a Good hip score, normal elbows, normal heart and clear/normal eyes.*_ 
Given ALL of the information that this breeder had (through this website and others) it seems clear that she has ignored what she learned.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

The whole verbiage is intended to deceive. It implies she has a longevity of breeding (which I suppose she could have and just come here and lied) and that they actually HAVE a program. So disappointing. And so misleading.... I always hope for the best- the story I told earlier in the thread about the gal who started much like this one, her bitch just got a major and is now lacking just one more. She'll be a real asset to our breed. But for the concern shown her by myself and others (no different than was shown here to this woman) she might have- no, she WOULD have ended up pretending to be a reputable breeder just like this woman is doing... but she wasn't too prideful and admitted her mistake in breeding her bitch (and this gal could have never made that mistake in the first place had she just waited and joined the community instead of joining the 'I want to breed my bitch w prelims so I will do it cause my vet says it's ok' group)... rambling now because I am so disappointed. Maybe we didn't waste our time- maybe someone else was about to become a BYB and didn't because they read our heartfelt words to this woman.


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

No wonder the sire's owner didn't mind breeding to an underage bitch. He just turned 2 in January 2016 and has offspring born in December 2015. He was only approximately 1year 9 months old when bred. Orthopedic Foundation for Animals


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## goldy1 (Aug 5, 2012)

I usually don't get involved in threads like this. The OP received good advice in spite of the ridiculous question. So many red flags in the original post: "confirmation"?, be nice to make money but didn't matter either way? A reputable breeder spends a fortune and is devoted to the breed - isn't in it for the money. 
I hate to be so cynical but how this turned out is no surprise at all.


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## Coopsmom (Jan 13, 2015)

As I think more about this, I am actually angry about the manner in which the OP has acted - stating she is interested in becoming a "reputable breeder" and completely disregarding the advice from REPUTABLE breeders is disrespectful and disingenuous. I can almost excuse a person who simply doesn't know any better but Rose Tree Goldens moved forward with breeding despite receiving excellent guidance from several of you who tried to respond to her questions and provide information. She is also KNOWINGLY misrepresenting her dog's testing on her website and her Facebook page.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

I can remember Laura S and I trying to mentor a breeder on this site. We really did try only to be very disappointed when she continued to breed underage dogs on prelims, even after two of her stud dogs failed their final clearances after passing their prelims. It is so disappointing, especially because we really could use more good breeders.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

She thinks because OFA says 97% will pass if they pass prelims, she can choose to disregard the CoE recommendations because it is a closed mindset of one group....
which never bodes well for the future when a new person decides they are free to decide to disregard recommendations in place for a reason, as a newbie, she has no idea all the things that can go awry and I hope that they do not for her bitch... 

I think she is enthusiastic, but I wish it were directed in the way she was advised, and that she'd found a mentoring group outside of the AKC Reg GR for sale in the US FB group- those people are all anti-clearance and very hostile, imo. She sees the few breeders who were reared in this breed who do use prelims (even though I don't think that's ok- for me or the breed- I do know that they at least do know their lines historically and she will never know her lines as the bitch came from a 'pay extra for full' type breeder and the pedigree is basically empty) I don't see her ear becoming any better than she is right now. It really bothered me a lot last night. I do hope that someone became a better breeder for all our advice to this one who knew better than we did.


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## Coopsmom (Jan 13, 2015)

Oh noooooo.... I have not seen that Facebook page before! they should re-name it something like the "golden retriever virtual backyard breeder community page - get your goldens here!" I don't know if i would use the word "enthusiastic" to describe the breeder. I think she comes across as arrogant and misleading. Robin- you, and others, are so generous with your time, guidance, suggestions, etc -thank you for all you do to try to better the breed!!


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

*Rose Tree Goldens*

I don't know that I can even convey the amount of disappointment and disgust I am feeling right now. 

I spent so much time and effort on the forum and substantially more off the forum trying to help this person. I am so incredibly regretful that I did. I feel like all I did was help this disingenuous person learn how to manipulate, misrepresent and mislead people better than if I had never said anything. 

The title of her thread it, "How does one become a reputable breeder?" The answer is not like this. This makes you a bad breeder, a for profit breeder, a breeder who has not a care for the breed. She is breeding under age dogs, misrepresenting her dogs and exploiting the ignorance and trust of her buyers who will believe the inaccurate statements about the health certifications of her bitch. 

That is strong wording, I know. But, it is not opinion it is fact. 

The bitch is not two= under age. 
The bitch has these titles - National Junior Puppy Champion - NatJR
International Junior Puppy Champion - IntJR. Not NAT/INT J CH or NAT/INT CH. 
She was fully aware and educated on health certifications yet she uses wording that will lead ordinary puppy people to believe the bitch has actual hip and elbow certification when she does not.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Laura, I too spent time off this forum on her. I felt such disappointment when I saw the AKC GR for sale posting- and then spent more time explaining my disappointment in her with her- to which she responded that I was superior acting and judgmental. Oh well. On the timeline of experience, she is a baby.. and babies should not be leaving the beaten path of shared experience others so generously gave her. But - some people believe they know as much as others and can make choices out of the safety zone of experience... I just hate to read her site and see her wording is carefully chosen to appear to be from the voice of experience and longevity in the breed. It's a shame. She could have been so much more. And we need more good breeders.


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## Coopsmom (Jan 13, 2015)

LJack said:


> I don't know that I can even convey the amount of disappointment and disgust I am feeling right now.
> 
> I spent so much time and effort on the forum and substantially more off the forum trying to help this person. I am so incredibly regretful that I did. I feel like all I did was help this disingenuous person learn how to manipulate, misrepresent and mislead people better than if I had never said anything.
> 
> ...


I am so sorry (and angry) that she used you (and others) in this way. Your language is 100% accurate. I would add that she is acting in an intentionally deceptive manner. She has clearly looked at other websites to build her own and uses some of those great "catch phrases" such as "raising quality golden retriever puppies" when she has not even whelped a litter.


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## Coopsmom (Jan 13, 2015)

Prism Goldens said:


> Laura, I too spent time off this forum on her. I felt such disappointment when I saw the AKC GR for sale posting- and then spent more time explaining my disappointment in her with her- to which she responded that I was superior acting and judgmental. Oh well. On the timeline of experience, she is a baby.. and babies should not be leaving the beaten path of shared experience others so generously gave her. But - some people believe they know as much as others and can make choices out of the safety zone of experience... I just hate to read her site and see her wording is carefully chosen to appear to be from the voice of experience and longevity in the breed. It's a shame. She could have been so much more. And we need more good breeders.


that's a lot of nerve to call you "superior and judgmental" and says quite a bit about *her* character. I've read MANY of your posts and you always come across as kind, fair, reasonable and helpful. Yes, we need more good breeders... or less demand for goldens.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Unfortunately there seems to be a niche in the PA market an I'm sure other places as well, that operates on the fringe of what the GRCA recommends. Knows titles & clearances are important and goes for the quickest/easiest means to make it seem legit & comparable to what I believe to be an actual/reputable breeder. They get to clear $1K plus per pup w/ minimal effort. I believe Golden Glory is mentoring Rose Tree Golden Retrievers. You see the foster program that once was included on Rose Tree Golden Retrievers website and that's what Golden Glory uses. Not sure how you're able to discern at 4 weeks that a girl pup would be an asset to the breed & sold into the foster program. Just because someone has been breeding for umpteen years doesn't make them reputable or respected in my eyes. Here's hoping buyers do their homework...


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## Ksdenton (Mar 17, 2013)

I have to say, I'm inexperienced in all this and I would have been fooled by her website. Now I do have the ability to come on this forum and inquire and I would surely use it but that's a small number of people compared to all those who will certainly be mislead by her website. One thing for sure is it makes people more aware of deceptive practices.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

The best we can do is recommend that people either do the homework themselves as far as verifying clearances... or they go through a breed referral, where THEY will hopefully verify all clearances before recommending these people. 

I hate dishonesty more than everything else. And next to that - I dislike when people are into dogs just to make money off the dogs. When they have no passion, no pride, no sense of right or wrong when it comes to what they are doing. 

You can forgive the people down the street who have a very nice dog and they've been talked into breeding that dog by somebody complimenting them up and down. They don't know any better... 

People who spend a little more time learning what should be done, learning what is quality (and isn't), etc... they are the ones that are to be held responsible for abusing that knowledge in their actions. 

The ignorant byb mom and pops are a dime a dozen in this country. And a lot of them are good people. A lot of them might have been breeding other animals for ages and doing a good job at that... so they extend the same stuff to dogs. They don't know what breed standards are or what breeding quality should be, but neither do a lot of the people they know. <= If you were smarter than that, shame on you for buying those dogs! LOL. But a lot of people just have not been around the block enough times to know north from south... or something.  

The other people... there's a lot of them too. Nothing I loathe more than start up businesses when they concern dogs. Everything I know about golden retrievers from people who I would ABSOLUTELY buy a puppy from... there's not a lot of profit in it if you are keeping small and doing it right. 

One of my friends - somebody who has been an idol for me as far as obedience training for a very long time... and she is a breeder and produces dogs who are as close to the breed standard as possible while also breeding for obedience traits that she wants.... we were talking about dogs and clearances... and she mentioned that she hates breeding. She hates putting her girls at risk especially. She does breed because there is a pretty big demand for her dogs. But even so, she mentioned that while she's been "lucky" with the dogs she breeds now... when she started out many years ago, there were 5 dogs that failed clearances, who could not be bred. And each time, she had to start all over with another puppy. <= So clearances behind a dog were extremely important for two reasons. The first being that you don't want to produce disabled dogs who can't compete in obedience or agility. The second being the fact that she breeds for herself - and she wants to stack the deck as best as possible as far as having a breeding dog down the road who gets her clearances. 

A friend of mine got into hot water a while back recommending that breeding dogs should have advanced obedience titles on them in addition to conformation... and her point was good, in that if you are also breeding for dogs to be able to jump their height and stay sound and athletic for 9-10 years while you may compete in some fashion with them.... you will take those clearances very seriously. <= Not saying I agree that should be the rule. But there is a truth in that. There's just too many people out there who don't take very much pride in what they do and/or they don't have a lot of passion for producing the best possible dogs.

A lot of people who do nothing and who live by the moment as far as "just breeding to have a puppy to keep" or so on... they do not have the same amount of judicious motivation for what they do. Which you then fall into the hole of people just breeding whatever they have or whatever they can get.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

And the Rose Tree Golden Retriever Facebook has gone public--clearances are claimed...advertising a preliminary report as a clearance for Nala


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## craigtoo (Jan 6, 2016)

As someone who is preparing to purchase their first Golden and their first pure bred dog, I've found this thread to be most informative. Thanks to all that contributed. Seriously. 


So, Nala was born 10/18/2014.

They are "expecting" 8/23/2016

65 Day gestation period?

That means conception was on or about 6/20/16. 

Nala was 20 months old..............


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## Altairss (Sep 7, 2012)

So very sad and yet so indicative of many in todays society. Worse when another person comes here and wants assistance very few will want to step up and help.


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## G-bear (Oct 6, 2015)

To the breeders on this website who attempted to educate this individual: while I know that many of you spent time trying to steer her in the right direction and encouraged her to make responsible decisions your time was not wasted when she went over to the dark side. While she may have been too arrogant and foolish to listen and heed your advice there are many of us on GRF who HAVE read your posts (not just this one but others as well) and while the vast majority of us have no interest in breeding goldens we have learned a great deal from all of you. So, while you may have wasted time on a very foolish woman your time was not completely wasted. Many of us have learned from you and your posts. I thank you for your posts and I, for one, appreciate what you, as responsible breeders, do


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

I'm still getting that her Facebook page is a closed group...I was all ready to post a comment. 

Edited to add: Found it...here I go.


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## nixietink (Apr 3, 2008)

This thread makes me sick!! Where are her morals?! My God. 

Thank you to all the breeders who tried to educate this woman and steer her in the right direction. You are all a godsend!


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Here's her Facebook link if anyone wants to add to the conversation. 

The link was through my Facebook account, don't want that...just search Rose Tree Goldens and it will come up...


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## nixietink (Apr 3, 2008)

kwhit said:


> Here's her Facebook link if anyone wants to add to the conversation.
> 
> The link was through my Facebook account, don't want that...just search Rose Tree Goldens and it will come up...




Would love to join in but it looks like she deleted your comment. [emoji58]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

I wonder if they can delete their reviews on Facebook?... I wouldn't think so.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

I commented again...


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

ArchersMom said:


> I wonder if they can delete their reviews on Facebook?... I wouldn't think so.


How do you review on Facebook?


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

It's only for business and things like that. At the top of the page it says "be the first to leave a review."


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## Kalhayd (May 4, 2016)

Ksdenton said:


> I have to say, I'm inexperienced in all this and I would have been fooled by her website. Now I do have the ability to come on this forum and inquire and I would surely use it but that's a small number of people compared to all those who will certainly be mislead by her website. One thing for sure is it makes people more aware of deceptive practices.




This. This. This. If it wasn't for this board I wouldn't know what to look for.. I know better now, so I will do better- but it is sad how often this occurs.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Someone's getting through to Rose Tree Goldens as the litter announcement on FB was edited to now reflect Nala as having prelim hips vice an actual clearance.


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## nixietink (Apr 3, 2008)

kwhit said:


> I commented again...




And again...DELETED.

The best we can hope for is that anyone considering purchasing a puppy from her sees this thread.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

nixietink said:


> And again...DELETED.


Here's my last comment I just posted:

You know...you wrote this on a GR board on 5-25-15 when you asked for advice about breeding..."Thank you both! I agree about the prelim certs...they say 2 years for a reason." And also the same day you said..."I've been researching the hell out of all of this and decided weeks ago that I'd rather do it right and wait until she's two and has her actual clearances." What changed your mind to make you breed her before she's two years old and on only preliminary clearances which have no proof of her soundness?

Maybe this one will stay up for a little while, (hopefully she's sleeping now and won't see it until later)...


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Tahnee GR said:


> I can remember Laura S and I trying to mentor a breeder on this site. We really did try only to be very disappointed when she continued to breed underage dogs on prelims, even after two of her stud dogs failed their final clearances after passing their prelims. It is so disappointing, especially because we really could use more good breeders.


I remember this very well. Saddening.


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## Coopsmom (Jan 13, 2015)

SheetsSM said:


> Someone's getting through to Rose Tree Goldens as the litter announcement on FB was edited to now reflect Nala as having prelim hips vice an actual clearance.


But, she has not changed this on the AKC Golden Retrievers for Sale webpage...


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## Coopsmom (Jan 13, 2015)

I think it's a good thing that the OP/breeder has not been on this forum for a year! otherwise, she would probably attempt to delete this entire thread by removing her original post... hopefully, that doesn't happen.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

No poster can delete a thread. The threads here live forever. The can only be edited for 24 hours before they are locked.

It is why I try to always carefully word what I choose to say here.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

G-bear said:


> To the breeders on this website who attempted to educate this individual: while I know that many of you spent time trying to steer her in the right direction and encouraged her to make responsible decisions your time was not wasted when she went over to the dark side. While she may have been too arrogant and foolish to listen and heed your advice there are many of us on GRF who HAVE read your posts (not just this one but others as well) and while the vast majority of us have no interest in breeding goldens we have learned a great deal from all of you. So, while you may have wasted time on a very foolish woman your time was not completely wasted. Many of us have learned from you and your posts. I thank you for your posts and I, for one, appreciate what you, as responsible breeders, do


Hear, hear. 

I keep hoping the original poster WILL come back and explain herself. I guess she's ashamed.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

And, I see that the person I was referring to, the one Laura S and I tried to mentor, has expressed interest in a nice puppy on the GR litter FB page. She has managed to pick up a few dogs with nice pedigrees, and she has "cleaned up" k9data by removing her name from those dogs she bred on prelims


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Megora said:


> if you are also breeding for dogs to be able to jump their height and stay sound and athletic for 9-10 years while you may compete in some fashion with them.... you will take those clearances very seriously.


Somewhat ironic, but not even a day after I posted this, I remembered that there is a very well known, reputable, successful performance breeder out there who I swear I keep hearing about dogs from them having elbow dysplasia. I don't think this is the case with each and every one of them, but one of the pretty bad cases I became aware of most recently - I just pulled up the K9Data info on this dog and sure enough - the mom of the dog in question did not have her elbow clearances. And oh yeah, bred once and produced very bad elbow dysplasia cases in litter... and that breeding is going to be repeated.

It blows my mind that this happens. As frustrating and upsetting as it can be to have a dog who is bred to be dynamic competition partner - and be dealing with the wheels coming off when they are puppies. It's all the more heartbreaking because these owners went out of their way to purchase these puppies and they had a lot of trust in the breeder. 

I hate to say this but it's a huge reason why you may trust what you think is a good breeder - but verify. Thanks to OFA - you can pretty much verify clearances and it's pass or fail - or breeder never bothered (which has to be treated as a possible fail if you are looking at a litter and you see spotty clearances). Do this across the board.


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## rtgoldens (May 25, 2015)

I’m not usually one for drama, so this will be my only response to the bash fest that is happening against me. I couldn't remember my log in so I had to make a new one. The only reason I am even entertaining this is because someone stated they were hoping I’d jump on and explain. I've been following this since you started, it doesn't take a log in to watch a webpage lol.

Number one, no I do not feel “ashamed” or “wounded”. Nor am I hiding or deceiving anyone. It states on my website that Nala has pre-lims done, and if you didn’t find that information, then I’m sorry you had trouble navigating the site. Check under the Our Dogs page. 

Number two, to the woman that has been consistently commenting on my FB page…there was no need. Right under the announcement, someone asked about testing and I was upfront with her right then and there in the comments about pre-lims, and this was before you all started gossiping, so there you go. I don’t hide anything I’m doing and have been upfront with anyone who’s shown an interest in a puppy. Grow up ladies – this gossiping and ridicule is exactly why people shy away from getting involved in the first place…it seems you all actually enjoy putting others down.

Number three, I’m sorry if some of you felt that your help was wasted on me. I did appreciate the guidance and have taken many many points that were stated to me and followed through to the best of my ability, including getting out there, showing in conformation and training in other areas with her, as well as learning more about the standard, health, breeding, pedigrees, eventing, and correct raising of puppies. I have found a mentor that is very knowledgeable and has shown me more than I could ever learn online. I’ve helped whelp, socialize, etc thanks to her taking me under her wing and owe her a lot. THAT kind of generosity and assistance will always mean more to me than someone’s reputation. 

Number four… do not send a witch hunt out on me when I have seen, time and time again, top, well known, well respected breeders in the breed breaking rules left and right as it suits them, thinking that they are above the rules because of their reputation. I have seen breeding on pre-lims, cheating at shows, political favor, etc. There seems to be no black and white in this breed – there are many shades of grey depending on who you are, so before you attack me, do your homework on others that you consider friends. 

Number five….the big “explanation” you’ve all been waiting for…no we did not breed her at 20 months as a quick cash grab. It was due to family circumstances possibly coming up in the next year and potentially not being able to breed her until 2018, at which point I’d be concerned about breeding a maiden bitch that is 3-4 years old due to several articles and stories I have heard about older bitches not taking, having more complications, etc. I don’t feel the need to discuss my private life with any of you, frankly, but I will say that my reasons for breeding now were to make sure I had the time to properly devote to her and a litter, and to make sure that my mentor was available to assist me in my first solo whelping. I don’t know that I will have help or recent whelping experience a couple years from now due to a potential relocation. This was not a decision taken lightly and I did go back and forth on whether to go forward with it. I educated myself on the possibilities of waiting vs having a litter now, and saw more potential pitfalls in waiting. I did make sure to get the four required tests done as close to 24 months as possible, and plan to have finals done when she’s 24-25 months. She received a good hip rating at almost 18 months, and according to OFA dogs tested several months younger have a 98% chance of rating normal at 24…and that percentage goes up the closer to 24 months that you test. The vet said her elbows looked very correct as well, and he is known to be critical when it comes to OFA scans. Do I think that health wise whelping 2 months before her birthday is going to affect her? Absolutely not – not due to age. She will be 2 before the pups even leave, for god sake. Do I plan to breed on pre-lims with future bitches? No. Do I plan to go buy something fancy and expensive with Nala’s puppy fees? No. I plan to put that back into training and showing. 

Only two breeders in this entire thread bothered to actually reach out and contact me personally regarding this. To them…thank you for taking the mature route and actually going forward to find out more, whether or not you consider my reasons valid. To the rest of you…with the winky faces and the “ooo let’s post on her page game”…maybe you can redirect your efforts to those breeders who plan to breed at a year old with no clearances to any stud they can find…that to me sounds like a much better use of your time. I made this decision after a lot of researching, talking to my repro vet, and speaking at length with several breeders…both those that breed on pre-lims and those that do not. I do not play the politics game, or base my decisions just to appease a group. I made a decision I felt was safest and healthiest for my dog
. 
Continue on with your bash fest…but know that I will not be commenting again, nor am I coming back to this thread again. I have better, more important things to do with my time than worry about who thinks what of me. I graduated high school years ago - I'm not one for drama. If anyone would like to actually be an adult and speak with me directly, I think you’ve all been shown how to reach me online  Have a nice day.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Please see the Code of Ethics on breeding dogs prior to 24 months and prior to full clearances. No mentor should encourage a newbie to breed prior to that time. That's the issue that people are upset about - particularly since they took such efforts to help you when you were asking as the thread title says - how to become a reputable breeder. 

Even good breeders out there lose support and respect when they cut corners even slighter than you had with stud dogs who have a far less health risk related to being bred early. And that's usually people who have respect to lose. If you are new breeder, you don't have that right off. And you are more prone to have people talking behind their hands and avoiding selling you puppies. And those people are probably not people posting here or on the FB page. These are people who would improve on what you have. And if you can't purchase puppies to build on your program and improve and really make a name for yourself, you fall into the hole of just breeding what you can get or what you have in most cases. And who you are associated with or co-breed with or who you are mentored by does impact you as well.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

rtgoldens said:


> Number four… do not send a witch hunt out on me when I have seen, time and time again, top, well known, well respected breeders in the breed breaking rules left and right as it suits them, thinking that they are above the rules because of their reputation. I have seen breeding on pre-lims, cheating at shows, political favor, etc. There seems to be no black and white in this breed – there are many shades of grey depending on who you are, so before you attack me, do your homework on others that you consider friends.
> 
> Number five….the big “explanation” you’ve all been waiting for…no we did not breed her at 20 months as a quick cash grab. It was due to family circumstances possibly coming up in the next year and potentially not being able to breed her until 2018,


"Everybody else does it, so I did, too" does not make it ethically right. Nor does, "it didn't work for me to wait until she was 24 months, so forget about all that ethics stuff I professed to being concerned with."


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## GoldenFocus (Feb 28, 2016)

How does one become a reputable breeder?

9 out of 10 ethical breeders agree......you don't. The criterion established for those outside of a particular breeders circle of trust and friendship are not ethical.


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## Coopsmom (Jan 13, 2015)

Wow - how to even respond to this.... First, not everyone participating in this thread is a breeder (i'm not) but we are all lovers of this breed and have knowledge about ethical, evidence based, breed specific recommended breeding practices for goldens. As far as I can tell, you own your first golden and have very limited experience with the breed. Out of respect for the breed AND as a support to YOU, some breeders here offered you considerable guidance and information. These are breeders who have done this for a long time and know what they are talking about. It would be really interesting to hear more what FACTS you have to back up this statement: _*"I have seen, time and time again, top, well known, well respected breeders in the breed breaking rules left and right as it suits them, thinking that they are above the rules because of their reputation. I have seen breeding on pre-lims, cheating at shows, political favor, etc."*_. How many AKC shows have you been to and/or competed in to come to this wide sweeping conclusion?
I think that one of the major points you've missed all along is this: there is nothing special about your dog that suggests she should be bred in the first place, especially at an age of less than 2! She has not proven herself in conformation, obedience, field, agility or therapy work. She is underage and does not have final clearances.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

To me, your long winded post is just a bunch of excuses for your unethical and irresponsible breeding practices. You tell us to grow up...too bad you didn't take your own advice about Nala. You never even gave her the chance to grow up before you're having her popping out puppies for you. Way to go...putting your own selfish wants ahead of your dog speaks volumes of you as a "breeder". 

No matter my opinion of you, I truly hope that Nala has an uneventful and easy delivery and all her puppies are healthy. I'm also hoping that your puppy prices reflect having only preliminary clearances.


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## fourlakes (Feb 16, 2013)

Wow, just seeing all this now. I think the original question was "How does one become a reputable breeder". I think following the Golden Retriever Club of America Code of Ethics is a good start. If you cut big corners on the very basics of that then sorry, you are not a reputable breeder.


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