# Drop on Recall: What the drop looks like



## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

Drop on Recall:

I've seen some variations in how dogs are moving for the DOR during the drop piece...

Any comments on what is "ideal"?
Does anyone happen to have a good video clip of the DOR, with it in slow motion?
What part of the dog moves first? Where is the weight shift? Are there correlations in -how- the dog drops and the quality of the performance?

Or is this completely... non relevant? I'm trying to summarize a 2 hour training group discussion/experiment from yesterday!

(I can't find the title box! I hope this post has a title!)


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

I think the fold back or sphinx down is ideal--so that the whole dog folds back and drops at the same time. Unfortunately, mine drops her butt first and then slide her front down--I haven't worried about this much because she isn't moving forward at all, but it isn't what I consider ideal.


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## IowaGold (Nov 3, 2009)

I think the fold back is ideal too. I guess in slow motion it would look like the dog "bows" (front end goes down) then the weight shifts back and the hind drops.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

There are a few different YouTube clips below that I like watching - they are different styles shown and I think it kinds of shows there is no one perfect way - enjoy


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

Thanks for all the comments and videos, I'd seen some of those but others I had not. (...I may or may not have spent over an hour last night watching and rewatching....ahem).

I'd really love to find a few slow-motion clips. It looks like all of the dogs are collecting from the front more than from the back end (also how our dogs were responding yesterday), but it almost seems like you'd get a faster response if the dog collected more from the rear? 

But... those NOI clips show it can be done well with all these variations....!

Is there a different term for the fold back down (...dogs paws stay in the same place) and a down from a stand where the body goes straight down but the front paws scoot out front to accommodate? 

Are any of the drops in those video clips considered "more ideal" than others? How much space/little steps/distance is considered "acceptable" with the dog moving at speed?


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Hmmm Sunrise, I was at the show in the second video and I know of that dog and handler! (Must I say an OTCH on a blue tick is pretty impressive)  To top it off, Suzie's DOR looks like Scout's....


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

The main area for getting hit points would be a delay between the command and the dog beginning its drop. My preference is for my dog to fold back and all go down evenly (versus the front end going down first and then the back end - seen too many dogs stop on the front end and just freeze in a "moon the judge" position!) Conner never would do a fold back for me. His drop consists of him sitting and then walking his front feet out. But that's not scorable as long as he keeps moving and does not pause in the sit position. 

The best thing I ever did was teach Flip to walk backward (all my dogs will walk backward if I'm walking into them, but he's the only one I taught to walk backward while I stand still). I use the term "scoot" so as not to interfere with the field term "back." I do a lot of "scoot" "drop" "scoot" "drop" so that he is always associating in his mind drops with a backward motion.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

GoldenSail said:


> Hmmm Sunrise, I was at the show in the second video and I know of that dog and handler! (Must I say an OTCH on a blue tick is pretty impressive)  To top it off, Suzie's DOR looks like Scout's....


Oh I totally agree .. while I mostly love goldens in obedience, I luv that video too. 

RedDogs, I have had dogs collect from the front and rear, but my King would literally slide (and occasionally lose points due to bouncing LOL) when I attempted to train rear collection - front end collection halted forward motion much faster and since the sphinx down has a front to rear aspect I stick with that now.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I've never met Paula, but from what I've read of some posts of hers, she kind of reminds me of Connie Cleveland. Good common sense training. And anyone who can put OTCH's on two different Blue Ticks and get a placement with one at NOI has my admiration!



GoldenSail said:


> Hmmm Sunrise, I was at the show in the second video and I know of that dog and handler! (Must I say an OTCH on a blue tick is pretty impressive)  To top it off, Suzie's DOR looks like Scout's....


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Loisiana said:


> I've never met Paula, but from what I've read of some posts of hers, she kind of reminds me of Connie Cleveland. Good common sense training. And anyone who can put OTCH's on two different Blue Ticks and get a placement with one at NOI has my admiration!


Yes, and from what I understand her first OTCH blue tick was her Novice A dog and the first OTCH blue tick (and for Idaho). She's local to my area and that video I posted of Scout's obedience run through back in like, February?, it was a run-through with her. I could get lessons from her, but I know she uses the ecollar and I don't want to for obedience. Plus, getting lessons from an actual AKC judge seems to be a bonus 

Sorry to go off track...


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Somebody's baby daddy is on this thread...


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Loisiana said:


> Somebody's baby daddy is on this thread...


Oh? do tell


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I was talking about Hootie. We'll hopefully have a Hootie pup joining the GRF gang soon


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## JDandBigAm (Aug 25, 2008)

I met Paula about 6 months ago at a show in Puyallup. She had both Blue Tick Hounds with her and they are lovely dogs. GoldenSail are you showing your Golden in obedience and will you make any shows in Western Washington? I'm training my Novice A dog right now and will hopefully start showing by the end of next summer. My goal is to get a utility title within the 12 month period. Paula is offering advice on a little problem I'm having with Jonah holding on to the dumbell and not letting go when I ask for him to "give it". He is holding on to the dumbell for dear life and I can't get his jaws to budge. Any takers on this problem?


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Happy said:


> I met Paula about 6 months ago at a show in Puyallup. She had both Blue Tick Hounds with her and they are lovely dogs. GoldenSail are you showing your Golden in obedience and will you make any shows in Western Washington? I'm training my Novice A dog right now and will hopefully start showing by the end of next summer. My goal is to get a utility title within the 12 month period. Paula is offering advice on a little problem I'm having with Jonah holding on to the dumbell and not letting go when I ask for him to "give it". He is holding on to the dumbell for dear life and I can't get his jaws to budge. Any takers on this problem?


How did you teach the 'OUT' command? I would consider revisiting this .. I consider the release to be the end of the retrieve chain and so think it needs to be both well understood and rewarding to your dog before the retrieve is added. And revsited periodically throughout your dogs training. 

Good luck


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

Those of you who are around a lot of obedience people...find someone with a fancy camera and beg for a slow motion DOR video/s PLEASE!

I looove the blueticks... I've been a weekly/twice weekly shelter volunteer for 4+ years...the closest I've been to taking a dog home was not the goldens, was not the littermates to my golden mix, but a big beautiful bluetick. He was a VERY nice working dog and I was so sad to see him in a pet home, but he's having a great time and much loved. -Really- fabulous working dogs, I love seeing the videos of Paula's.


Dumbbell: The drop isn't necessarily the end of the chain... that would be the release (that's after the finish, that's after the pause that's after the Out. Does the dog not Out with other items? Do you tug with this dog? Does he eventually out on the dumbbell? If he's so intent on holding it... as soon as you get an out, even if you stand there several minutes.... I would cue "take it". Repeat repeat repeat.... If he's getting stuck on other items...it's a much bigger training plan (.....been there done that!).


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

RedDogs said:


> Dumbbell: The drop isn't necessarily the end of the chain... that would be the release (that's after the finish, that's after the pause that's after the Out. Does the dog not Out with other items? Do you tug with this dog? Does he eventually out on the dumbbell? If he's so intent on holding it... as soon as you get an out, even if you stand there several minutes.... I would cue "take it". Repeat repeat repeat.... If he's getting stuck on other items...it's a much bigger training plan (.....been there done that!).


Ahh, but I consider the finish the reward!! They get to either finish or release to a game, food or tug. My dogs rarely finish during the retrieve exercises and while training then only if they have retrieved to my criteria


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

That still makes it part of the chain, how/where/when the reinforcer is presented is a very important part for training and maintaining behaviors/chains.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Loisiana said:


> I was talking about Hootie. We'll hopefully have a Hootie pup joining the GRF gang soon


I don't mean to interrupt the conversation (am reading and absorbing) but that dog had a fantastic heel. Little ball of fire. Ann's really lucky in getting one of his pups<:


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Happy said:


> I met Paula about 6 months ago at a show in Puyallup. She had both Blue Tick Hounds with her and they are lovely dogs. GoldenSail are you showing your Golden in obedience and will you make any shows in Western Washington? I'm training my Novice A dog right now and will hopefully start showing by the end of next summer. My goal is to get a utility title within the 12 month period. Paula is offering advice on a little problem I'm having with Jonah holding on to the dumbell and not letting go when I ask for him to "give it". He is holding on to the dumbell for dear life and I can't get his jaws to budge. Any takers on this problem?


Well, I imagine when we're ready that we'll probably do some shows in Washington! 

For your problem--try blowing in his nose. It has to be quick, strong, and unexpected. That usually is enough of a surprise to make them give it up. 

I have seen people push the object into the dog which jerks the head back, but I don't like that at all.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

RedDogs said:


> That still makes it part of the chain, how/where/when the reinforcer is presented is a very important part for training and maintaining behaviors/chains.


I think we are perhaps not envisioning the same thing. If I reward my dog after he gives me the dumbbell on cue, fairly consistently, without requiring the finish before any release or reward, I consider the giving up of the dumbbell (on cue) to be the end of the chain. IOW, the out command is the end of the behavior chain required for release/reward.

I do know many trainers who continue the chain with the finish with a retrieve, in which case I completely agree with you about the chained behavior requiring the pause waiting for the cue, the finish and then the release. The end of the chain is now the finish.

About the videos, I am unsure exactly what you are looking for .. like the frame rate you would like to see, exactly what you are trying to analyze - are you trying to figure out the fastest way to stop forward motion in your dog? I think this would depend on your dog's structure to a large degree. We'd all love for our dogs to immediately stop and then do a beautiful fold-back down, but sometimes that would not be best for an individual dog. My King burned his pads with a sliding halt since he consistently attempted to drop while stopping and so I taught him to sit then drop to help prevent this - it usually cost him half a stride but he never lost points since he responded immediately and his recalls were so fast people held their breaths while wondering if he would crash into me - before I changed his drop style, he occasionally lost points for bouncing all the way into me if the flooring was rubberized. My Rowdy did a gorgeous stop, then fold down. Casey does a beautiful stop by kind of hopping and planting his front feet, then dropping but he does the front end first. Different styles for different dogs.

To slow down the frame rate of a video I use the viewing software.


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

Quite possibly, I thought you were discussing the final behavior, and on your second posting, the behavior in training (with the finish...to which the release from the finish could/would/is the last piece...if there is no specific behavior after that or to a food/toy). If there is a specific release or delivery of reinforcement, there may be aspects to that incorporated into the chain, even if the Out is the last big movement from the dog. 

On the complete exercise the release is likely the final piece to the chain.

I would like to see a DOR more slowly than what I can see on youtube. I'm not a technology person and I have no idea what different frame rates would look like. I want to know what movement typically is seen first from the dog and how dogs move...and ideally compare a few different dogs. As it is, I can't watch all four legs and the head and the topline to see what's going on... (not to mention the quality on some clips...not as helpful). 

Ultimately I would like to know what little things I may be training for other than just a good drop and see what happens. Training history probably has just as much of an impact as structure. In the experiments we did yesterday with a very well trained dog, we were getting different physical movements depending on the cues we used for various down behaviors.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

So would you also find clips that include the handler's cue helpful?

I find it helpful to focus on one thing at a time while watching a clip (I am more used to watching agility clips though). Concentrating first on head motion, then on the front end, topline, backend, feet motion etc. I don't know if that would be helpful? It takes a while but I think it also takes a long time to develop the eye for movement if you are not born with it (I was not and so I break it down as above).


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

For fixing the out --- couple ideas:

Like RedDogs mentioned, as soon as he finally does out (don't nag - cue it and wait and make sure you aren't putting any pressure on the DB) then IMMEDIATELY cue take it and let him have it back. 

OR - an old John Rogerson trick would be to weight only one end of the DB so the dog has to work harder to hold it. Do a lot of take it, hold it.... hold it.... hold it........ then cue out. Not as much fun to hold when it's off-balance. This helps with mouthing, too.

The first method is certainly easier and works quite well. I use it with my pet clients all the time and even the most horrible "outer" is rehabbed fairly quickly.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

RedDogs said:


> Ultimately I would like to know what little things I may be training for other than just a good drop and see what happens. Training history probably has just as much of an impact as structure. In the experiments we did yesterday with a very well trained dog, we were getting different physical movements depending on the cues we used for various down behaviors.


Something that I thought of while driving in to work today is that pre-cueing your dog that a drop is coming has a definite impact on how quickly he stops and drops. 

My pre-cue is shifting my eyes from the judge to my dog...others may do different things. I now purposely shift my eyes in training with no judge as well since I noticed this pattern. A video clip would not show some of these things .. I just thought I'd throw that thought into the discussion


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