# My sweet goldens bit a daschund!



## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

I remember years ago we added a third dog into our home that already had 2 dogs. Even though there was no agression between the three, my husband always made sure we isolated the third dog in the bathroom when we were not home. He was afraid that the other two dogs would "gang up" on her, he said "Packs" will do that.

I am not a trainer, but maybe it is because the two together are doing the "ganging up". There are trainers on this board that can give you better advice.


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## Thor's Mom (Feb 25, 2007)

If the dog that was bit was on your property it may have been your goldens in a turf thing. Which, frankly, I have No problem with and I don't even think you should pay the vet bills. 
Were any of the dogs leashed or fenced? Are the dogs intact? Intact males have less patience for other intact males.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Can you tell who is more aggressive of the two? Often in a brother/sister pair, the male can show aggression to dogs outside of the household b/c he feels he has a bitch to protect.

Is any of your property fenced? Given that you know your dogs have a problem, and they have now gone after and done damage to another dog (as opposed to charging but not making contact), you're going to have to be extremely careful that they don't get into any more conflicts with other dogs.

I would suggest working with a qualified, positive trainer in the area. Stay away from choke chains and pinch collars (or worse, e-collars) to try and solve this problem as is WILL make it worse in the long run. Correcting a dog in the presence of the trigger almost always eventually backfires and makes the problem worse.

Best of luck. Keep us posted.

Stephanie


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## Tessa's Mom (Jun 28, 2007)

I totally agree with getting help from a pro trainer. I do not know much about it myself, but it sounds like a sensible thing to try out. I hope it is not something serious and can be taken care of thru discipline and patience. Good Luck !!


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## Goldilocks (Jun 3, 2007)

I can sympathize totally with what you are going through. It's actually heartbreaking. 

A week and a half ago my golden out of the blue attacked our other dog when the dog tried to sniff at or take a toy with a treat away from the golden. The attack was fierce and our other dog needed surgery to fix the wound. There were no signs that anything like this ever could have happened. We are on our toes now and I am waiting to hear back from 2 trainers. I think everyone must be on vacation now! I have observed my golden playing with a male golden which is bigger by about 15 lbs and my female is quite rough and holds her own with him. There have been times I have intervened and put a stop to the play. I have no idea what has happened here, other than she lived at the breeders for 2 years with about 8 other goldens and maybe it was survival of the fittest and things were a bit more "wild" than in our homes and neighbourhoods. Need that trainer!!!


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## Goldndust (Jul 30, 2005)

I think all the signs were there for this happening, and it finally did. I think the key is, they are dogs first, then breed second. Even a golden can bite, and it's always very sad when it's heard. 

Just because a high energy dog attacks another dog has nothing to do with it being a high energy dog, it has to do with who is in control of that high energy dog and how it is getting rid of that high energy level. If the energy level is not being met correctly or the control and direction is not there the frustration can build as the excitement does also and pack leadership is not there as it should be. I'm not sure how the socialization was done on these dogs as young pups and other dogs but many times that also plays a part in this.

I'm sorry your going through this,
Have you had a medical check done? It's always good to weigh this out first so you know it's not an issue, then you would move on too working with the training issues at hand once the medical part is checked and all good there.


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## dana (Dec 3, 2006)

what are e collars?


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## Jo Ellen (Feb 25, 2007)

First of all, you need to understand that dog-dog aggression is a totally different thing than dog-human aggression. Just because your dogs do not get along well with all other dogs does not at all mean that they will become aggressive towards humans, as well. Relax about this.

I think it's a myth that golden retrievers will get along well with all other dogs and that they are born naturally that way. My golden certainly does not get along well with all other dogs and, like you, I was very shocked to see this. She's not a dog's dog, I've learned to accept that and get on with life. Certainly it's called for changes, for both of us. But it's definitely manageable. Albeit, there are a few heart-in-throat moments every now and then. 

Don't beat yourself up, and don't beat your dogs up either.  Some dogs are just this way when they mature, even goldens. I'm not convinced at all that socialization is the key to prevention in this regard. My golden is very socialized, she grew up in dog daycare and she's had tons of exposure to other dogs and life in general. If it is a matter of proper socialization, I think it's a good deal more complicated than we think.

All that being said, as a responsible dog owner it is now up to you to keep your dogs and other dogs safe, and also other people who may be called on to intervene if something goes wrong. Supervision is critical, as is control in situations involving other dogs, and then coming here to vent or cry or scream or whatever whenever things get rough.

:wave:


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## kerribear's golden kids (May 17, 2007)

I know I may get some flack for this but this is MY OPINION, sorry if I hurt anyones feelings, it is NOT meant too...

Quote: Stay away from choke chains and pinch collars (or worse, e-collars) to try and solve this problem as is WILL make it worse in the long run. Correcting a dog in the presence of the trigger almost always eventually backfires and makes the problem worse. end Quote.

*I totally Disagree with this advise.* If used PROPERLY, these methods DO work. Correcting a dog when it is in the Red Zone is Always the best way to fix the problem, You may get a nip or a bite form that dog, but you need to correct it when it is happening NOT after...Most family dogs who nip or bite the owners when they are trying to stop the behavior, do not mean to bite them, the dog is caught up in the heat of the actions, so do not take it personally if you get bit...


Quote: I think all the signs were there for this happening, and it finally did. I think the key is, they are dogs first, then breed second. Even a golden can bite, and it's always very sad when it's heard. 

Just because a high energy dog attacks another dog has nothing to do with it being a high energy dog, it has to do with who is in control of that high energy dog and how it is getting rid of that high energy level. If the energy level is not being met correctly or the control and direction is not there the frustration can build as the excitement does also and pack leadership is not there as it should be. I'm not sure how the socialization was done on these dogs as young pups and other dogs but many times that also plays a part in this. End quote.

*This I do agree with,* The signs were there and knowing this about your dogs, you should always be ON Gaurd. I highly suggest fencing your yard for the dogs, not only for the safety of others but for them as well..

High energy dogs need a JOB, they need daily exercise, being long walks, swimming, hearding, etc...If you cannot take them on Long walks, get doggie back packs and take them for 30 min. walks, it will feel like 1 hour walks to them Plus it gives them a Job, carrying the back pack, add water bottles in the pockets to add weight plus it keeps them cool and water is available for them & you...
If you have a treadmill, slowly teach them to walk on it, this burns so much energy in them. If you have a golf cart or a atv, teach them to run along side of it. Again, burning the energy plus exerciseing them..

Pack leadership is MOST important in any household, What are you doing to become the Pack Leader in your home? 
Do you make them Sit for: greetings, treats, attention, dinnertime, etc...? When a dog is in the Sit position, it is in a relaxed frame of mind, but, it must remain in the Sit position to remain calm & relaxed...
When they do something OUT OF CONTROL, such as biting, nipping, jumping, just being crazy, do you put them in a relaxed position, such as, biting, do you put them on thier side and hold them down until they relax? 

Socilaization needs to be done with them, a LOT of it, around dogs, kids & people, If you feel they may bite any of them, put a "Gentle Leader" on them and correct them when they try anything towards dogs, kids or people...
I can go on and on, so IF you would like some more info, feel free to PM me...
And again, sorry if I offended anyone, it was not meant too. just My Opinions...

Kerri


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

kerribear's golden kids said:


> I know I may get some flack for this but this is MY OPINION, sorry if I hurt anyones feelings, it is NOT meant too...
> 
> Quote: Stay away from choke chains and pinch collars (or worse, e-collars) to try and solve this problem as is WILL make it worse in the long run. Correcting a dog in the presence of the trigger almost always eventually backfires and makes the problem worse. end Quote.
> 
> ...


_*I totally Disagree with this advise.* If used PROPERLY, these methods DO work. Correcting a dog when it is in the Red Zone is Always the best way to fix the problem, You may get a nip or a bite form that dog, but you need to correct it when it is happening NOT after...Most family dogs who nip or bite the owners when they are trying to stop the behavior, do not mean to bite them, the dog is caught up in the heat of the actions, so do not take it personally if you get bit..._

Those methods, at best, in most dogs, will *supress* the aggressive behavior. Supressing it does not mean it has gone away. Think of it this way -- you don't like snakes. You REALLY don't like snakes. Your reaction when you see a snake is violent. Now, when I'm with you and I see you reacting violently to a snake, I whack you over the head with a 2 x 4. Do you really think that's going to change how you feel about snakes? Probably will make you dislike them even more b/c you still have your original dislike of snakes coupled with the anxiety and fear associated with the "correction" you're going to get from me.

The fact is, non- harshly corrective methods (pinch collars, choke chains e-collars AKA electric or shock collars) DO work --- b/c they are rooted in science. Dominance methods are based largely in ego... the idea that the human can *force* a dog to stop doing something.

I'm not going to re-hash the "old school" vs "new school" training debate. I've done so numerous times with other members on the list.

I have my opinion, you have yours. The important thing is that the dog owner in question do what she's comfortable with for her dog. Period.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

And I'm sorry, but I just have to say.... suggesting that a client partake in a training exercise that will likely get them bitten (whether it be out of redirected aggression or the dog full on intending to bite as a way to stop the owner from man-handling the dog) just feels irresponsible to me!

Again, just my opinion...


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## vrocco1 (Feb 25, 2006)

Thank you kerribear's golden kids, for saying what I was thinking.


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## kerribear's golden kids (May 17, 2007)

FlyingQuizini said:


> _*I totally Disagree with this advise.* If used PROPERLY, these methods DO work. Correcting a dog when it is in the Red Zone is Always the best way to fix the problem, You may get a nip or a bite form that dog, but you need to correct it when it is happening NOT after...Most family dogs who nip or bite the owners when they are trying to stop the behavior, do not mean to bite them, the dog is caught up in the heat of the actions, so do not take it personally if you get bit..._
> 
> Those methods, at best, in most dogs, will *supress* the aggressive behavior. Supressing it does not mean it has gone away. Think of it this way -- you don't like snakes. You REALLY don't like snakes. Your reaction when you see a snake is violent. Now, when I'm with you and I see you reacting violently to a snake, I whack you over the head with a 2 x 4. Do you really think that's going to change how you feel about snakes? Probably will make you dislike them even more b/c you still have your original dislike of snakes coupled with the anxiety and fear associated with the "correction" you're going to get from me.
> 
> ...


I am not here to have a arguement over which ways work best, I am here to give advise on what HAS and DOES WORK with my type of training. 

Your right, you have your methods & I have mine. My advise to her was simple and a known fact at what works for me...

I do not believe in hurting a dog, but by controlling it's actions is very important and the way you do it MUST be done correctly or it will back fire..
If your dog bites you or something else are you saying, pull it way and give it a treat? Or are you going to let it get out it's frustrations and then give it a treat or praise? 

I feel you must always correct a dogs actions if/when it happens. I too do positive training for positive actions...


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## kerribear's golden kids (May 17, 2007)

FlyingQuizini said:


> And I'm sorry, but I just have to say.... suggesting that a client partake in a training exercise that will likely get them bitten (whether it be out of redirected aggression or the dog full on intending to bite as a way to stop the owner from man-handling the dog) just feels irresponsible to me!
> 
> Again, just my opinion...


It is not irresponsible to STOP your dog from hurting something, it is irresponsible to NOT STOP it...

How many times have you been bitten from breaking up a dog fight? 

Me 3 times, 1 of them reqiuring stitches, I am NOT affraid of being bitten IF it STOPS the fighting, rather me then spending hundreds of dollars on a dog or dogs getting fixed form bites, punctures, etc or worse death...


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## kerribear's golden kids (May 17, 2007)

Let's face it...dogs are dogs and if/when they bite something it is OUR responsibility to take actions...

It is our responsibility to help out when we need too...
Being in rescue, you never know what you are getting into when you take in a dog, that is why we are Always here for them no matter what!


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## HovawartMom (Aug 10, 2006)

kerribear's golden kids said:


> I know I may get some flack for this but this is MY OPINION, sorry if I hurt anyones feelings, it is NOT meant too...
> 
> Quote: Stay away from choke chains and pinch collars (or worse, e-collars) to try and solve this problem as is WILL make it worse in the long run. Correcting a dog in the presence of the trigger almost always eventually backfires and makes the problem worse. end Quote.
> 
> ...


Excellent post!.
Not all golden are good with other dogs cos they are dogs!.They are animals that go with instinct.
Dogs do gang together but training can stop it!.Fence yr yard that will be a great help and do some one on one training.My sister used the e-collar very successfully on her dogs that was dog aggressive.At the end,she would just put on without turning it on.I do advise you,to learn to use it with a trainer.


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## vrocco1 (Feb 25, 2006)

The secret to dog training, is very simple. You teach the dog who the boss is. Some people use ecollars, and some people use clickers. It is not worth getting in a huff over it.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

kerribear's golden kids said:


> If your dog bites you or something else are you saying, pull it way and give it a treat? Or are you going to let it get out it's frustrations and then give it a treat or praise?


No... and the fact that you even say that, suggests that you grossly misunderstand the principles of non-corrective training.

Non-corrective training is NOT just about treats. It's about changing associations - replacing negative ones with good ones. There are many ways to do that. 

You have your methods, I have mine. I'm glad you've had success with your methods. I simply choose to train a different way.


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## dana (Dec 3, 2006)

what is a e collar?


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

dana said:


> what is a e collar?


Electronic Collar. Commonly known as a shock collar.


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## vrocco1 (Feb 25, 2006)

dana said:


> what is a e collar?


It is the electronic collar. People that don't understand it sometimes refer to it as a "shock" collar.


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## Cam's Mom (Apr 13, 2007)

You could definately see this coming....but it's never too late to teach an older dog new tricks...just takes a bit longer!! Getting an experts advise would most definately be a good move.

One thing that no-one so far has mentioned is that siblings are often the worst to train, whatever training method you use... 

...they've always had each other, and often look to each other before they look to the owner. 

(I advocate using the method, or mix, that works best for you, your particular dog and your trainer...I use different methods depending on the dogs age and temperement...I love clicker training, but it doesn't work so well for some people...most dogs love it. The dog will respond best to what you are most comfortable with. Be prepared to change if your not comfortable) 



You need to break that trend...they need to look to you before each other. 

That means a lot of work on your part...taking them seperately to training, for walks, playtime with you. Using the "nothing in life is free" method is a good start. They must work for everything... wait to go through doors after you, sit for all treats and food..even doing some short training session to earn dinner. Not be allowed on furniture or beds, or the front seat in the car... till they've got the bigger picture, and then only on invitation. And of course they shouldn't even have the opportunity to be off leash running after another dog till their recall is very, very good.( my primary concern here would not be the nipping of another dog...but being hit by a car)

Second...dachsunds are heel nipping dogs...Goldens play "bitey face" The two breeds have a totally different approach to life. Many larger dogs just can't stand having their heels and ankles nipped...is it possible this neighbor dog has done this at some point? It could be a reason for your dog to retaliate. I'm not condoning your dog biting... but if your two are not used to playing with lots of different sized dogs it could be part of the problem.

Fencing is one solution...more sozializtion, after evaluation, and in a controlled situation would be better. Playing one at a time with a dacshund..with a trainer in attendance? 

Seeing there's a problem and seeking a solution is the biggest part of the battle...and you've already taken that step. I wish you luck with the work involved in getting those two teenagers into shape...three's when Goldens begin to clam down just a bit too:crossfing

Margaret


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## dana (Dec 3, 2006)

oh! now i feel like a loser! duh!!!!!!


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## Cam's Mom (Apr 13, 2007)

Dana...you're definately not a looser. The only way you learn is by asking questions. I'm glad to see you're interested in your dogs enough to want to know more!! I'm a grandmother and still ask questions...there's always new stuff to learn.

Margaret


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## Maggies mom (Jan 6, 2006)

kerribear's golden kids said:


> I know I may get some flack for this but this is MY OPINION, sorry if I hurt anyones feelings, it is NOT meant too...
> 
> Quote: Stay away from choke chains and pinch collars (or worse, e-collars) to try and solve this problem as is WILL make it worse in the long run. Correcting a dog in the presence of the trigger almost always eventually backfires and makes the problem worse. end Quote.
> 
> ...


Kerri..I agree with you..... NOT all things work the same for every dog..... Every dog is different and I can say this each dog of mine is trained in very different ways .


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## GoldenJoyx'stwo (Feb 25, 2007)

No one is a loser for asking questions. If you think about it, a person loses out if they don't ask questions. Some people also refer to an Elizabethan Collar as an e-collar.


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## DelmarvaGold (Mar 7, 2006)

Maggies mom said:


> Kerri..I agree with you..... NOT all things work the same for every dog..... Every dog is different and I can say this each dog of mine is trained in very different ways .



I agree. I also think it takes a very misinformed person to refer to the e-collar as a "shock collar" Most people who use the term "shock" have never used the collar and should not be giving opinions on it's use.

I live in a multi-dog household and of course there are always minor scuffles. I am quick to let ALL dogs know that I am in charge...if it takes me grabbing the dog by the scruff and getting in their face then so be it. GOD forbid....now I am a dog abuser!!!!! Quick...some one call the authorities!!

What everyone seems to forget is that our beloved goldens are ANIMALS! Do you really think that in the wild pups were corrected with a clicker or any other form of so called "positive" training? Has anyone every watched a mother correct her young? It is with a grab, shake and growl. To insinuate that is wrong does not give much merit to the person stating such gibberish.

Of course this is only my opinion and god forbid if I find fault with a "professional" :


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## kerribear's golden kids (May 17, 2007)

Thank you to those of you whom have agreed with me! We do all have our own ways of training and I was just expressing my ways to the owner that asked for help! I did not mean to get into any kind of arguements here, but I will not let some one think I am a bad trainer for having a difference of opinion on thier training methods..
I hope that she takes a lot of all of the training advise and finds it useful. I also hope she is able to get them into a training class of some sort to help her find what works for her & the 2 dogs...
Best of luck to you and know if you need any further help Please ask...


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## Goldndust (Jul 30, 2005)

FlyingQuizini said:


> Electronic Collar. Commonly known as a shock collar.


Not by todays standards! The electric collar has come along ways from what it once was years ago.

In todays collars they also have vibration mode, which for many is all that is needed for there dog when they have chosen to use this tool. I can tell you this, the vibration mode can have more of an effect on the dog then the actual collar can to break a focus in many dogs.

The collars used correctly as with any tool can be more humane then the jerks can on the leads for training, especially in some dogs. With many dogs out there treats at distances will not break a focus when there about to be harmed, that focus is sooooooo strong that nothing will come above it, not even the very best of treat! There all just so individual, there not all as I have called them the Bianka's of the world!

Not all dogs need e-collars, but for those that are put in them they do work very well alongside the OB training commands and signals taught earlier on. Of course, there are times you wouldn't use an e-collar, that would be in a fight between two dogs, never ever use one then because then it would make the fight more aggressive in nature!


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## HovawartMom (Aug 10, 2006)

The only thing I can say,is that I have seen people using nylon collar in a more inhuman way than the prong or electric collar.You have to find the right tool and trainer for each dog.One recipe is not always good,for all.


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## luvmydoryncutter (Aug 3, 2007)

Thank you for all the varied feed back. As a follow up, I should have originally mentioned that we did immediately fence and electrify our land. We have not had any outside dog issues since, but I still have my heart jump in my throat whenever they are around other dogs, and we have had a couple instances of squabbling (no biting) when our friends have brought over other dogs. They do go to doggie daycare and have never had an issue. They are also super on walks, as we use the gentle leader and they respond wonderfully, with a great heel, no barking or pulling. At our home, in the fencing, they are free to run. They get TONS of exercise- we have a ball launcher and a creek for swimming. I am just sad that it happened, and that they seem forever "marked" as biters. I don't know which did the biting, most likely the male, due to his dominance. We have been working with our vet to determine the behavior training in conjunction with some light meds. It seems to be working, but I just can't get the image out of my mind, of this old, cute weiner dog w/ MY dogs teeth marks in its rear end. As one responder wrote, I definitely know I need to work on having them know I am the boss. They have basic training, ie. I go through the door first, they don't sit by us on the couch unless invited. But it is obvious, I need more dominance over them. I had just always pictured myself as the type of pet owner that would forever spend my evenings sharing a bowl of ice cream and cuddling w/ my golden, not calling the vet to check on the status of a dog they had hurt. I appreciate all of the opinions and feedback, and I look forward to more! Thanks, everyone, for your input.

PS- On a side note, I have been trying to put together a time frame for the change, since we went through at least a year or two without incident. The only thing that came to mind, is that a neighbor had a LARGE husky dog, that used to come over daily to play with our dogs (pre-fencing) He was very dominant and my pups were very submissive to him, as they were to all dogs. It was after he moved away last year, that this territorial aggression seemed to develop. Am I just looking for an explantion, or is this a potential trigger?


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## kerribear's golden kids (May 17, 2007)

luvmydoryncutter said:


> PS- On a side note, I have been trying to put together a time frame for the change, since we went through at least a year or two without incident. The only thing that came to mind, is that a neighbor had a LARGE husky dog, that used to come over daily to play with our dogs (pre-fencing) He was very dominant and my pups were very submissive to him, as they were to all dogs. It was after he moved away last year, that this territorial aggression seemed to develop. Am I just looking for an explantion, or is this a potential trigger?


I feel he has taken over the Husky's place to protect your yard. They learn what is taught to them from puppyhood so if this Husky taught him to be dominant then that is what he is now showing toward other dogs..

I also do not feel a Vet has all the answers when it come to behavior's of dogs. I would suggest seeking a Behaviorist instead of a Vet...
I have come in contact with WAY TOO MANY Vet's who know nothing about a dog's behavior. They are educated in medicine not behavior! 
As for the Vet given the dog medicine for this, that is just wrong, let's drug the dog so he is not aggressive, to me that is totally defeating the purpose..

Again, these are my opinions as a trainer, behaviorist & a dog rescuer...

Kerri


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