# $1,200+ ??



## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Please look up the numerous threads on this topic.. There really is no need to start another controversial thread on the same topic again.


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## CaseyKaylaBoone:) (Dec 18, 2011)

Vhuynh2 said:


> Please look up the numerous threads on this topic.. There really is no need to start another controversial thread on the same topic again.


It doesn't have to be controversial, people just make it that way. I don't feel like skimming through a bunch of argumentative, negative posts where people are just attacking each other and pointing fingers. I just want a simple answer to my question.


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## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

IMHO from a good breeder raising pups properly with a titled and cleared sire and dam... no. No one understands what goes into these babies it seems like a ton of cash but no ever sees behind the scenes.


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## CaseyKaylaBoone:) (Dec 18, 2011)

Vhuynh2 said:


> Please look up the numerous threads on this topic.. There really is no need to start another controversial thread on the same topic again.


It's a question out of curiosity as I completely don't know what types of breeders are out there and what the price ranges are. It's an innocent question in trying to educate myself on buying a puppy. It's rude to blow off my question like you did, accusing it of being something it's not.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

I am definitely not accusing you of trying to start a controversial thread. I know it sounded that way. I apologize for that. What I meant is that someone (hopefully a breeder) will give you the answer and then others will chime in to say the costs are still unjustified and ridiculous because they just want a pet and don't care about showing or clearances, which will anger a lot of people and start an entire debate.


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## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

Vhuynh2 said:


> which will anger a lot of people and start an entire debate.


LOL its not the first and it certainly won't be last!


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Ash said:


> LOL its not the first and it certainly won't be last!


Oh I know.. It's just that it has all been said so many times!


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## Ash (Sep 11, 2007)

LOL well folks have too much time on their hands and if these on forum scraps make there day well thats great for them. Its a little pathetic to the rest of us with full happy lives... real lives. Reminds me of the Brad Paisley song haha.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Why should a reputable breeder who puts in extra effort and money charge the same as a byb? I honestly do not think 1200 is a lot of money for a well bred puppy. I see those prices in pet stores and people paying 500 to 700 for puppies out of the newspaper.


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## CaseyKaylaBoone:) (Dec 18, 2011)

Vhuynh2 said:


> I am definitely not accusing you of trying to start a controversial thread. I know it sounded that way. I apologize for that. What I meant is that someone (hopefully a breeder) will give you the answer and then others will chime in to say the costs are still unjustified and ridiculous because they just want a pet and don't care about showing or clearances, which will anger a lot of people and start an entire debate.


If it escalates to that, I'll simply get the answer I'm looking for and delete the entire thread. There is no need for that kind of behavior, as everyone has the right to their own opinions, and I've noticed that some on this site can't accept that.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

$1200 is a bargain for a well-bred pup, and here's why.

Say the difference between a BYB dog and a well bred dog is $1000. It's probably less than that, but let's use the higher number. What does that extra $1000 get you if you go to a reputable breeder? Let's set aside the fact that they protect dogs from unnecessary suffering and look at the cold, hard math.

It gets you a hip clearance on both parents and hip clearances going backwards through the ancestry. Clearing just the two parents cuts the risk of hip dysplasia by about 50%, and multigenerational clearances cut it further than that. That's a surgery that costs $5000 easily, not counting the initial diagnosis or the followup medical care. But let's just call it $5000.

It gets you an elbow clearance. Same stats as the hip clearance, so let's call it $5000.

It gets you a heart clearance. Let's be truly cold here and point out that heart murmurs aren't always as expensive as joint dysplasia because they're so often fatal. If the dog dies suddenly at 2 or 3 years old, that's not an expensive problem. But sometimes there are heart murmurs that can be lived with, if the dog is given meds and consistent care from a doctor. Let's lowball that at $1000.

It gets you eye clearances done every year on the breeding dogs in order to prevent expensive, debilitating diseases like pigmentary uveitis. Saving you all those visits to the ophthalmological specialist is probably another cool $1000 at least. There's also the risk with diseases like PU that the eye will have to be removed. I don't know what that costs, but I'm guessing it's north of $2000.

So we're talking about $14000 in risks (and honestly, we took the lowest possible amount at each step, so it's much, much more, realistically), and you're paying $1000 to cut the odds in half or more.

If we're talking about a truly reputable breeder, you also have somebody whose dogs have proven themselves in competition. It's not a status thing for most of us. It's a health, longevity, and temperament thing. Titles are all about proving the dog has the structure, type, and ability of a Golden Retriever. Everything you like about the breed is protected by breeders who compete and breed carefully, and breeders who don't risk producing dogs who don't have those characteristics as consistently. Sports and conformation ("show") help prove that the parents are well built and at an even lower risk for things like joint problems.

Truly great breeders are tracking health issues even beyond those I mentioned, so your dogs are at an even lower risk for problems beyond the big four clearances (hip, elbows, hearts, and eyes). Great breeders help lower the risk of thyroid issues, temperament issues, shoulder issues, and a host of other problems dogs can have.

Even if you completely set aside the most important part, which is lowering a dog's risk of suffering and increasing the odds that he'll have a long, healthy life with you, that $1000 pays for itself purely as a financial investment. 

Does that help put it in context? If you're really going to an excellent, reputable, experienced breeder, your $1000 is a downright bargain in terms of the protection it buys you. And wouldn't you pay $1000 if it meant you could have more healthy years with your dog? Would you pay $1000 to cut your dog's risk of health issues in half or better?

That's what it means to go to a reputable breeder. $1200 is a steal. A $1200, properly bred dog is a far, far cheaper dog than a $200 dog that's the product of a thoughtless matchup between two intact Goldens that happened to be at hand. And even if the money issue wasn't so clear, every Golden deserves the best possible shot at a long, healthy life free from suffering.


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## Maddie'sMom2011 (Apr 26, 2011)

If you want an inexpensive dog that probably has no clearances, there are plenty of them out there. 

Please don't insult breeders here, that have invested more than you can imagine in their dogs.

After we lost Jake (11-23-10) & then Lillie (1-1-11), I was the one who had to have another. 

I found Maddie here & she was more than $1,200 + we drove 4 hours one way to get her. I wanted a puppy with clearances because that was really important to us. 

I guess we'll see huh?


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## Wendi (Jul 2, 2012)

Maddie'sMom2011 said:


> If you want an inexpensive dog that probably has no clearances, there are plenty of them out there.
> 
> Please don't insult breeders here, that have invested more than you can imagine in their dogs.
> 
> ...



I think I may have misunderstood what Maddie'sMom was saying.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

And if you want even more detail, I wrote a very long post a few weeks ago on what a great breeder does and why I feel I owe them such thanks.


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## CaseyKaylaBoone:) (Dec 18, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> $1200 is a bargain for a well-bred pup, and here's why.
> 
> Say the difference between a BYB dog and a well bred dog is $1000. It's probably less than that, but let's use the higher number. What does that extra $1000 get you if you go to a reputable breeder?
> 
> ...


Thank you  Helped me understand a lot. Just another question, say a dog has a litter of 8 pups, the breeder sells them for 1200 a piece, thats $9600 a litter. Does it honestly cost them almost 10 grand to get them up to par to sell? I'm not doubting it, I just have no idea and it seems like a lot. Although I do know how crazy expensive medical cost and all that is though!


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I think the poster here just doesn't understand why well-bred pups cost $1200+ and has made some incorrect assumptions. Maybe we could hold off on flaying her? I doubt she intended the insults implied here.


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## CaseyKaylaBoone:) (Dec 18, 2011)

CaseyKaylaBoone:) said:


> Thank you  Helped me understand a lot. Just another question, say a dog has a litter of 8 pups, the breeder sells them for 1200 a piece, thats $9600 a litter. Does it honestly cost them almost 10 grand to get them up to par to sell? I'm not doubting it, I just have no idea and it seems like a lot. Although I do know how crazy expensive medical cost and all that is though!


I mean it obviously doesn't cost them that much because they wouldn't be making a profit, but my question still stands..


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

CaseyKaylaBoone:) said:


> Thank you  Helped me understand a lot. Just another question, say a dog has a litter of 8 pups, the breeder sells them for 1200 a piece, thats $9600 a litter. Does it honestly cost them almost 10 grand to get them up to par to sell? I'm not doubting it, I just have no idea and it seems like a lot. Although I do know how crazy expensive medical cost and all that is though!


It typically costs a lot more than $10,000 to do clearances, prove a dog's worth in some kind of competition venue, and to cover the medical expenses of actually breeding the dogs and raising the litter.

Jennifer Craig wrote a great post adding up some of the costs she incurred on a single litter if you're curious as to how it adds up so quickly.

As a buyer, though, I'm more interested in what the extra expense means for the dog's health and temperament then in how much money the breeder is losing on a litter.


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## CaseyKaylaBoone:) (Dec 18, 2011)

Maddie'sMom2011 said:


> If you want an inexpensive dog that probably has no clearances, there are plenty of them out there.
> 
> Please don't insult breeders here, that have invested more than you can imagine in their dogs.
> 
> ...


Let me be clear, I am not insulting anyone. My question was not meant to be insulting. I am asking a innocent question about the cost of well bred dogs, as I do not know. I don't understand where you get me being insulting out of the question I asked. Sheesh.


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## Rainheart (Nov 28, 2010)

You've got to keep in mind a lot of things...
The price of clearances, the price of a stud (natural or AI... and if AI is the route, then there are procedures like surgical insemination that the breeder may do), progesterone testing, brucellosis testing, maintaining a bitch during pregnancy, delivery (which may involve a c-section that can run $3000), prices of puppy food and milk replacer, puppy vaccines, 

Not to mention the thousands of dollars the breeder has spent on dog shows and trials. It adds up to a lot more than they make on puppies. 

There are breeders out there who do all clearances and show their dogs that charge less that $1200, but they are very few and hard to find. In my area the average price is about $1500 with a very reputable breeder charging $2000 (which was out of my league). I paid $1500 for Beamer and drove 6 hours one way to pick him up.

I wish you luck on your search for a pup!


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

CaseyKaylaBoone:) said:


> I mean it obviously doesn't cost them that much because they wouldn't be making a profit, but my question still stands..


Actually, most good breeders take a significant loss on a typical litter. Jennifer estimated that a litter could easily cost $20K by the time the puppies are ready to sell, and don't forget that litters can be a whole lot smaller than 10 puppies.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

And no one is questioning byb pocket money they would get?? Say you pay $500 and they have 8 puppies... That is $4000 going straight into their pockets.


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## CaseyKaylaBoone:) (Dec 18, 2011)

kfayard said:


> And no one is questioning byb pocket money they would get?? Say you pay $500 and they have 8 puppies... That is $4000 going straight into their pockets.


Very true. I am in no way implying that BYB is a good thing. But I'm just gonna leave it at that because there's no need to start arguments as many people believe many different things, and that's okay.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

I paid 1200 that was the going rate 5 years ago on the East Coast, I am sure it is much higher now. I do know it was cheaper than buying a puppy mil golden from a pet store.

Buyers also have to remember that a breeder must also claim any of that income for taxes. My friend was a BYB, and every time she had a litter, she had a stack of papers to bring to her accountant, another cost people forget about.


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## golden_eclipse (Apr 1, 2011)

I bred a litter (titled parents, all clearances, surgical AI, ect ect...) got one puppy, that one puppy I have calculated to have costs be between 7-10k dollars at her birth. I kept her. But if I were to place her in a pet home, I would have asked $1200.....By the time this bitch is ready to breed I will have well over 20k dollars into her, without any puppies yet on the ground. Trust me your $1200 is a bargain!


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## golden_eclipse (Apr 1, 2011)

cubbysan said:


> I paid 1200 that was the going rate 5 years ago on the East Coast, I am sure it is much higher now. I do know it was cheaper than buying a puppy mil golden from a pet store.
> 
> *Buyers also have to remember that a breeder must also claim any of that income for taxes.* My friend was a BYB, and every time she had a litter, she had a stack of papers to bring to her accountant, another cost people forget about.


Actually since the expenses of investments and costs of raising the dogs always costs more than the income from carefully breeding, I would guess all breeders claim a loss every year, of course that takes skill to do their taxes, but I don't think the majority of breeders ever make enough to pay income taxes.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

I think it depends on what your looking for. 

Honestly, for me..I dont care for showing so the parents do not have to have titles. Here is what I would be satisfied with. This is MY break down of what I would be happy with from lets say a German Shepherd breeder (since thats my heart breed)

1. Hip/elbow clearances for both parents a MUST ($700)
2. Eye clearance ($300)
3. Thyroid Clearance ($300)
4. DNA for Degenerative Myelopathy ($70)
5. vWD test ($70)
6. Brucellosis ($70)

This is all I care for. I would be happy with just the 1st one. 

So were at $1510 for all the above. Double that since both male and female needs these. $3020. This is all I would want. I dont care for fancy show titles. 

So if each puppy sold for $800 out of a litter of 6 thats $4800. Shepherds tend to have bigger litters so lets up that to 10 pups. Thats $8,000. 

I dont see the need to rush to the vet to see if the pregnancy took (if there were issues yeah obviously the vet). I would just wait and see if the bitch swelled, if she did, shes pregnant...

That is JUST my opinion. People here tend to get their feathers in a ruffle. Spaying/neutering, vaccines, breeding and the definition/price of a good breeder/quality pup will rial anyone up here.

To answer your question, $1200 a pup all depends on what is done with both parents etc


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## hvgoldens4 (Nov 25, 2009)

CaseyKaylaBoone:) said:


> Very true. I am in no way implying that BYB is a good thing. But I'm just gonna leave it at that because there's no need to start arguments as many people believe many different things, and that's okay.


Ok Lets break down a few things cost wise so you have an idea of what goes into a litter. With a reputable breeder, they will do clearances on the dog before they ever think about breeding her.
Hip and Elbow Clearanace @ $400-600
Heart Clearance and fee to OFA @ $100
Eye clearance and CERF fees @ $50 per year as they have to be done yearly. So we are at about $650.

You need a mate for your girl and the average stud fee for a CH golden male is between $1200-1500.
No one will breed without a brucella test and that is another $100.
Now we need progesterone timing to make sure that all our hard work pays off. They are about $75-100 a piece and sometimes you need to run 4-5 of them before she gets to the point where she is ready to be bred. There is also the pre-breeding physical which is usually about another $100.

Now you have the costs of either getting her to the stud dog which can mean taking off some time from work(the girls never need to be bred on the weekends) A reputable breeder is looking for the male dog who is going to compliment their girl and also has the health and longevity and temperament that is a golden retriever. So, this dog is rarely around the corner.  I personally have driven to Boston a few times(I live in NW PA so it is about a 7.5 hr drive one way), I have driven to Indiana and St Louis, as well and both those trips are even further. You've got gas, tolls, you gotta eat and when driving so far, you have to have a place to stay. So an easy round estimate there is about $500. If Mr. Studly is too far away to drive, we will use fresh chilled or frozen semen and those increase the costs. It costs about $250 for Mr. Studly to be collected and shipped and then about another $400 for a Transcervical AI or $1000 for a surgical if you are using frozen or mom is a little older. So, here you have another $500-at least $1000 for a surgical to do the breeding.

OK great-mom is pregnant!! Now we have to start feeding her. She requires a lot more food now that she is pregant and so the food bill goes up quickly. You need a whelping box, whelping supplies, towels(and I am not talking a few here-I am talking at least 10-12 of them) to whelp the litter. You need bedding to put down in the wehlping box, a scale to weigh the babies(you would be surprised how quickly one can go down hill and be lost when they are newborns), vitamins for mom, medications for mom for the whelping such as calcium, oxytocin, dopram for slow starters and the list goes on and on. I could write pages on the supplies needed to whelp. All these things cost money, too. So, lets go low and say you make your own whelping box, you are still looking at minimum of $500 here and up to $1000. If mom runs into problems and needs to go to the vet or have a c-section, you are looking at another $300-2500. So we have already put out an awful lot of money and now the pups are finally here.

Again, now mom really starts eating. We currently have a litter that is 2 weeks old. Mom is eating almost 6 cups of food a day. She will get up to about 10-12 cups a day when I start to feed the puppies and then I am paying to feed the puppies, too. At the 10-12 cups a day, she is eating almost a bag of dog food herself in just over a week. The average premium brand of dog food is about $50 per bag. But, now I am also feeding the puppies so there is cost for that, as well. With this and the extra food she was eating while pregnant, you are easily looking at @ $300.

Now we need to worm the puppies around 3 times before they can leave-we also need stool samples and mom needs to be wormed, as well. This will run about $175. Now we need to take the puppies all to the vet and get them all a check up and their first set of shots. The check up is usually around $100 for the litter and if you are getting a good deal from your vet, the shots are $15-20 a peice. So, now you have another $250-300 invested. 

The puppies have to have toys to play with and you will need some baby gates or an expen or some way to contain them once they are out of the whelping box and if you are lucky, they will stay in the box until they are about 4 weeks old. This can easily run another few hundred dollars.


Now you need to assemble puppy packets for when they go home with photos of mom and dad, information about crate training, house breaking, their vet information, etc so this can easily run about $75 for the litter.

You have also now been doing laundry around the clock with towels and bedding, etc and the puppies have to be kept quite warm when they are first born because until they are around 10-12 days old, they can't regulate their body temperatures. So, now you have increased your water, gas and electric bill by a few hundred dollars, as well.

We are well over $4000 here and this is totally bare bones-this is without the c-section, this is without the surgical, this is without the fact that mom doesn't develop mastitis, metritis, the puppies get nasaly, or mom or puppies get loose stools. One or all of these things will usually happen at least once with the litter and you are looking at another few hundred dollars to treat that.

We have spent all this money and it is totally bare bones and we have not registered the litter with the AKC or figured in time and gas to run mom and puppies to all these vet appts and we haven't paid for ONE entry for mom to be at a show. Why does mom need to be at a show when you just want a pet.....pretty simple. These are golden retrievers. With each pure bred breed of dog, there is a standard which is like a blue print that states what the dog is supposed to be from height, to weight, to color, to the color of their nose and all the way to the tip of the tail. It also describes the correct temperament and the fact that these are bird dogs. But, wait.....you just want a pet, right?? Well, it is all of these things that are in the standard that make a golden a good family pet. They are a working retrieving breed and so that takes bidability and a desire to please the owner. They also have to be smart to be able to go thru cover and to learn to work in difficult conditions. All of this is part of the standard. If no one ever showed their dogs or competed with them in any venue to prove they met the standard and could do the job they were bred to do, it wouldn't take very long at all before a golden didn't look or act like a golden anymore and the breed would be lost.

It costs on average about $8000-15000 to finish a dogs AKC championship. No, not every dog who is bred is a champion but most at least have a CCA or obedience titles, agility titles, field titles-something that proves that this dog will be a good contribution to the gene pool and all these things cost money.

Also, you said that you had one golden puppy. So, you are aware of how much ONE golden puppy piddles and poops in a day. Now MULTIPLY that times 6-12 puppies that are in the litter that the breeder is cleaning up after every day and all the cleaning supplies, paper towels, etc to do that. Add in the AKC registrations, add in the time spent answering questions and interviewing potential homes, add in all the time that is spent with the puppies and taking care of mom and the breeder doesn't make a penny an hour.

You are also only looking at the good side-when she has puppies and all goes well. I, and every other breeder has paid out all this money and then mom didn't get pregnant. Or she had one puppy, or two or even three......wow, we are seriously in the hole here. And what if mom doesn't pass a clearance and you have to start all over again from scratch and what if mom develops a case of pyometra and needs to be spayed??? Or worse yet, you do all this and you lose mom and the babies to complications. And yes, it does happen-hydrops, a torsioned or torn unterus, mom going toxic-all can leave mom and the puppies lives hanging in the balance.

Now one other thing you are going to get from a reputable breeder is knowledge. That breeder will be there for you to ask questions, to help with any problems or training issues that come up. That breeder can tell you how long grandma and great-grandpa lived for and what they died from. You aren't going to get any of those things from a BYB or from the pet store.


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## hvgoldens4 (Nov 25, 2009)

A1Malinois said:


> I think it depends on what your looking for.
> 
> Honestly, for me..I dont care for showing so the parents do not have to have titles. Here is what I would be satisfied with. This is MY break down of what I would be happy with from lets say a German Shepherd breeder (since thats my heart breed)
> 
> ...


Hmmm and in your world, puppies don't require worming, first vaccines, food, a whelping box, registrations and mom doesn't need fed or any vet care either??? Last I knew, all these things cost money and that was money you didn't add into your equation. Interesting approach and I think I will pass.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

hvgoldens4 said:


> Hmmm and in your world, puppies don't require worming, first vaccines, food, a whelping box, registrations and mom doesn't need fed or any vet care either??? Last I knew, all these things cost money and that was money you didn't add into your equation. Interesting approach and I think I will pass.


I dont really care for CKC/AKC papers unless I intend to show, which I do not which is why that was not included. 

Worming, first vaccines and food- $650 (this includes a DHLPP/wormer/exam for 10 pups)
Food for pups, $200
Whelping Box that can easily be made at home- $100

A pre breeding exam on the bitch-$60

Food, I do not factor in because the bitch should be getting fed regardless of if she is pregnant or not. So, factoring the EXTRA food she requires...$200-$300 depending on the food. 

So add an extra $1,310 to my $3,020 which is $4,330. Still....$800 *IMO* is fair for 6-10 puppies in the litter.

Everyone has different opinions on what classifies as a BYB. Some believe that dogs with no CKC/AKC papers is a BYB dog. I dont believe that. As long as the parents have all their health tests done by specialists (not by regular vets, I know a golden "breeder" who breeds her male to any female she can because his/her regular vet says the dogs hips are fine and said no other tests needed to be done...drives me insane..this, is someone I feel is a BYB).


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## CleosMom (Sep 3, 2012)

Dang, I want to send our breeder we picked a PetCo gift card!


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Purchasing my dog 1,600
titling my dog Am CH- 7,000-25,000 dollars
OFA Prelims/OFA Final plus heart and eyes 1,000
Stud Fee 1,500
Jonart Whelping Box??????
Vet care for mom and puppies????? 500 to emergency 5,000
Toys and puppy agility set from Jazzin Goldens
3 ex pens


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

For those of you that are just knocking stuff of Jennifer's list that you don't feel like paying for, you do realize that many of those things prevent even more expensive problems, right? Like the progesterone tests? You don't do that because you like spending extra money. You do that so there's actually a shot at the bitch getting pregnant. You don't just pay a stud fee and the bitch is magically pregnant.

How far away is the stud? It's unlikely that the best stud for your bitch is just down the street, chilling out. He's probably out being shown in some venue pretty frequently too. So think about all the logistics, gas, and travel expenses it can cost, and multiply that by the number of attempts you have to make.

So Jennifer is being conservative by saying you spend some money on a progesterone test or two. If you didn't, or even if you do and you just aren't lucky, there's a lot more expense in having to make multiple attempts.

And I hope folks realize that in the real world, each breeding doesn't just pop out 6-10 healthy puppies that you sell for $1200 each. Bitches lose litters. Then you're out $20K and no puppies. What if there's only one puppy that makes it? When you look at a $1200 puppy, realize that there may be a different bitch in the house that the breeder spent $20K on but had to be spayed because of health issues. Maybe she failed a final elbow clearance even though every little other thing was perfect. Maybe she had pyo and had to be spayed. 

I don't see why people think they can just throw together a few numbers of what they feel like paying for and claim it costs 1/2 as much as it really does to breed a litter properly. Jennifer has actually done it, and her estimates are not particularly high for each stage. $20K is a fairly conservative estimate. It _might_ cost less than that with some breedings, but it frequently costs more. Much more.

Just look at the people who've actually put a CH on a dog. They're saying $7K minimum up to $25K. $25K is more than Jennifer's entire estimate!

And a CH isn't some fancypants status symbol. I could care less about that. It's proof that the dog is an excellent example of the breed. It's proof that goes beyond the breeder's personal experience and opinion, and it's proof that means that judge after judge has found this dog to be the best possible expression of breed type and structure.

Clearances are the bare minimum, but the bare minimum doesn't give you the healthiest, best-tempered, most true-to-breed-type dog.

And the fact of the money is that if they do everything right, breeders take significant financial losses selling puppies at $1200 or $1500 or even $2000. The dogs are worth a lot more and even $3K would be a bargain for the protection it buys you against health issues down the road. But good breeders keep their prices artificially low so they can screen buyers and make sure the puppies go to good homes. They could get a whole lot more if they just handed off puppies to whoever could write a check.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

I have had it with these threads.... people who are supposedly lovers of the breed constantly beating up the only people that are protecting and guarding the breed and trying to keep the breed as it was intended. 

Keep going to your backyard breeders who don't give a s*** and see what happens to your beloved goldens in ten years... its already there... do you think that we responsible breeders can't look at the dogs and know whether you got your dog from a responsible breeder or not??? shoot people don't even have to tell me, I can tell just by looking at their dog, long legged, pointy muzzles, high ear sets... roached backs... thats not including the poor temperaments, health issues and hyperactivity.... I have heard people say that they don't want a golden because everyone has a golden... but a WELL BRED golden is few and far between... I can't tell you how many times we get stopped on the street. People asking if my dogs are short... no they are what a golden should be... asking about their coats and oohing and aaahing because yes there are alot of goldens out there... but not goldens that look like or behave like what a golden is supposed to be. 

You want to nickel and dime how much I or Jennifer or any of the others spend??? honestly... its not the big stuff its the 20 bucks here, 50 bucks there, vet bills, shots, copying, postage, ... and ya know what if I make a hundred bucks or 800 (unheard of for a responsible breeder) bucks on this litter... trust me ... it goes back into the dogs and is used for the next litter when I save a puppy that would have otherwise died Or take back a Bing and provide life saving surgery .... maybe I will get my dog van fixed... or buy a couple new dogs beds... or perhaps supplement my ridiculous dog food bill ... and lets not even talk about how much is my time worth.... because that is not the reason I do this.... I am NOT a business.... but if I were a business... lets just say... someone on this thread said that 800 bucks profit...??? lets see.... I keep pups for 10 weeks... at the beginning they require 24 hour care... toward the end lets say 15 hours a day... oh yeah middle of the night (over time???) does the time that I take before mom is pregnant count??? what about running her to the vet when she is pregnant... ??? does that count... because that is another 9 weeks??? so lets see 800 bucks (which like I said is unheard of) for 4 mos of work???? you do the math... I did make money on one litter.... $14.00 

BUT I AM NOT A BUSINESS 


I don't know what the heck is going on lately... it seems like bash the responsible breeder has become a sport... its annoying and I am done with it....


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## inge (Sep 20, 2009)

When I got Tess I had just discovered this forum. I had learned about asking for health clearances, looking for a breeder who showed the dogs, what to look for when I visited the house.... The first visit I made to my breeder was my interview visit. We spent more than an hour going over what I wanted and why I wanted it, and then they decided if I could get a pup from them....the next weeks, after the litter was born, I went up at least five times to see the pups. Every time my breeders were there, answering all the questions that I had. About caring for baby pups, the best kind of training, the food, etc. I spent hours there. And even now, three years later ( and another puppy added), I still go back to them with questions. I was there a few nights ago, with Tess, who went crazy with itching from the shaving they had done in the hospital because she needed an ultrasound. It was already late, but I called and I could come. And they had something that relieved her so much, that she was finally able to go to sleep when we came home. That is a good breeder in my opinion. And yes, Tess and Liza were 1200+, and worth every penny of it.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I just heard about a family who's choosing a herding breed dog because it was "unique" and nobody else would have one. I said "do you know how unique it is to see a properly bred dog from one of the more 'common' breeds?"


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## goldy1 (Aug 5, 2012)

CaseyKaylaBoone:) said:


> It doesn't have to be controversial, people just make it that way. ... . I just want a simple answer to my question.


The truth is, the answer isn't really a simple one - though it may seem so on the surface. The people on this forum are truly passionate and caring about their Goldens and the breed in general. Each person gives their best honest advice and sometimes it conflicts with another's beliefs and advice.

Hence the thread it get's heated ! But within the thread there is great wisdom. If you can take the time to read through the previous threads it will give you various perspectives that will round out your knowledge of pricing, breeding, and the different aspects.

I have a personal story (that I won't get into here and hijack your thread) but please read through the previous posts on the topic. I think it will be of benefit to you.


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## 2golddogs (Oct 19, 2009)

A structurally sound, healthy, confident and well tempered golden puppy - priceless


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

tippykayak said:


> I just heard about a family who's choosing a herding breed dog because it was "unique" and nobody else would have one. I said "do you know how unique it is to see a properly bred dog from one of the more 'common' breeds?"


No kidding... I can't tell you how much attention our dogs get when we go out... many people don't even know what a golden is supposed to look like at this point. They are always commenting that my dogs are short... and their most isn't pointy... etc etc... its really amazing. Then I get the puffed out proud story about their golden they used to have that was THIS TALL and a hundred pounds.... and how my dogs don't look anything like his/hers.... well yeah


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## BayBeams (Jan 3, 2010)

If you are unwilling or unable to pay the going rate for a properly bred Golden that is fine. Then you would be better off going to a shelter or rescue for a dog. Patronizing a byb only promotes the numerous ills that have damaged the Golden breed. 
We all love our dogs but if we truely love our breed we will do the right thing and not support those that haven't taken the time and money to keep our Goldens strong, healthy and of the temperament for which Goldens have typically been loved.


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## Dexter12 (Feb 10, 2012)

I paid $1,200 for Dex. The breeder is reputable, his parents have their clearances, I know that I can call the breeder at any time if I have any illness issues with him and I think I have a pretty handsome dude too so I think he was worth the price.


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

I think you've gotten lots of great answers as to why it cost so much as well as what a savings it really can be (my 1st golden required a $1K shoulder surgery when she was 7 months old that could have been prevented by proper vetting of the parents). But I want to tell you why *I* paid $1200 for my puppy (now 4+ months old)

I have to admit, I feel guilty about purchasing a puppy instead of going through the shelter or even a golden rescue. I do feel bad about buying a puppy when there are so many dogs (including goldens) in need of homes. Because of my current situation (Grumpy Guinness-12yr old lab), a puppy was just going to be an easier fit into my home and I had my heart set on another golden. 
Since golden puppies in rescue are virtually unheard of (in my area at least), going through a breeder is the only way to do it. 
Since I made the decision to buy instead of adopt, I decided that I ONLY wanted to support people that are doing it for the love/betterment of the breed. IMO, that means going through the reputable/responsible breeders that have proven their dogs both against the breed standard and for health/soundness. I guess I feel that by me supporting responsible breeders rather than just someone who has an intact male and a buddy with a female that have wonderful personalities, I am doing something to help with the betterment of the breed as well as helping to keep dogs out of the shelter.


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## hvgoldens4 (Nov 25, 2009)

tippykayak said:


> For those of you that are just knocking stuff of Jennifer's list that you don't feel like paying for, you do realize that many of those things prevent even more expensive problems, right? Like the progesterone tests? You don't do that because you like spending extra money. You do that so there's actually a shot at the bitch getting pregnant. You don't just pay a stud fee and the bitch is magically pregnant.


Progesterone levels also tell you more than when the breed. They tell you when she will be DUE. Girls are due 63 days after they ovulate. This information is invaluable if mom has hydrops, goes toxic or fails to go into labor because of dystocia or a handful of other reasons. Puppies are not viable before day 58 because the girls are pregnant for such a short time. Before that, their heart and lungs are just not mature enough and even around day 59-60, if puppies have to be taken early because mom's health is at stake, the mom will be given dexamethasone to help to mature the puppies lungs. These things all happen.

We had one of our girls go toxic this summer. She was not able to eat and a pregnant girl at the end of her pregnancy needs about 2000 per day to keep herself and the puppies going. She was at a stage where the puppies were rapidly growing so she should have been gaining weight, but because she was unable to eat, she was losing weight. I was prepared to induce labor to save mom. We had progesterone testing, blood work, urinalysis, ultrasounds, xrays, IV fluids for mom-all these things come at a cost......the cost was $1800 and I was driving back and forth to our repro specialist who is 2.5 hours one way almost every day for a week. She did get to day 59 and we saw tooth buds on the xray so we had a shot at the puppies living. She stayed the night at the repro specialist on IV's and was given dex. We did a c-section the next day because to ask her to try to have the puppies when she was weak was not something I was going to do. There were 10 puppies. We lost 2 of them at birth-we couldn't get their breathing regulated depsite being given oxygen, dopram and being at one of the best reproductive clinic's in the world. We lost one more puppy about 6 hours later while we were still at the clinic. The c-section was another $1200.

No, these things don't happen with every litter-but they can and if you are going to breed, you had best be prepared for them to happen. There is a breeder in the LasVegas area right now-who had her first litter. Mom had to have a c-section because she was failing to go into a good labor. She had 14 puppies. One has been lost. Mom is at the vet right now fighting for her life as she has metritis and mastitis. The breeder-this is her very first litter, is at home worried sick about her girl and trying to tube feed the remaining 13 puppies to keep them alive. 

Breeding is not for the faint of heart. You put your heart and soul into your dogs and your breeding program. Research untold hours looking for the right dog to breed your girl to, sometimes things work out and you are given a whelping box of full of beautiful babies and mom is well but that is far from always the case. Some girls are unable to get pregnant, some will not pass a clearance, some will have issues being bred or with delivery and the list goes on and these things happen despite all the planning and years of experience that the breeder has. I tell everyone that the dogs have given me the highest of high's but also the lowest of lows and there are days that every breeder asks why am I doing this and can I keep doing this. In the end, most of us do keep going because of a love of the breed and we just couldn't imagine life without our these wonderful dogs.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Shalva said:


> I have had it with these threads.... people who are supposedly lovers of the breed constantly beating up the only people that are protecting and guarding the breed and trying to keep the breed as it was intended.
> 
> Keep going to your backyard breeders who don't give a s*** and see what happens to your beloved goldens in ten years... its already there... do you think that we responsible breeders can't look at the dogs and know whether you got your dog from a responsible breeder or not??? shoot people don't even have to tell me, I can tell just by looking at their dog, long legged, pointy muzzles, high ear sets... roached backs... thats not including the poor temperaments, health issues and hyperactivity.... I have heard people say that they don't want a golden because everyone has a golden... but a WELL BRED golden is few and far between... I can't tell you how many times we get stopped on the street. People asking if my dogs are short... no they are what a golden should be... asking about their coats and oohing and aaahing because yes there are alot of goldens out there... but not goldens that look like or behave like what a golden is supposed to be.
> 
> ...


I know this is a hot spot for you, and rightly so. But maybe look through this thread and count the responses that are reiterating the valid costs of breeding correctly vs. the number of posts against doing all those things. There are quite a few more supporting the proper way to do it than otherwise.

I do believe the OP asked a honest question because they did not know and were seeking answers. If you don't ask you can never learn.


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## CaseyKaylaBoone:) (Dec 18, 2011)

CleosMom said:


> Dang, I want to send our breeder we picked a PetCo gift card!


?? did i miss something? ha ha


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

mylissyk said:


> I know this is a hot spot for you, and rightly so. But maybe look through this thread and count the responses that are reiterating the valid costs of breeding correctly vs. the number of posts against doing all those things. There are quite a few more supporting the proper way to do it than otherwise.
> 
> I do believe the OP asked a honest question because they did not know and were seeking answers. If you don't ask you can never learn.


I have no issue with the original poster... I do have an issue with the direction these threads go every single time. 

I get really tired of defending the practices of good breeders. I get tired of reading the postings by folks who go to bad breeders then come and complain or have a sick dog ... but shoot they saved their money... I get tired of being called dishonest when people pick apart what we spend and our justification for charging what we do for puppies because what they are doing is calling all of us liars. 

I have no issue with the original poster although there are at least a million threads on this topic shoot how many from just last week... 

its just get tiresome... and yes most are justifying hte cost... but to have these threads pop up every single week... and having to justify this every single week... it makes me worry for the future of the breed... never in the past did I feel like we were being bashed as much as I have felt so recently and I joined in what... 2008 or something like that... it is troublesome


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## CaseyKaylaBoone:) (Dec 18, 2011)

Shalva said:


> I have had it with these threads.... people who are supposedly lovers of the breed constantly beating up the only people that are protecting and guarding the breed and trying to keep the breed as it was intended.
> 
> Keep going to your backyard breeders who don't give a s*** and see what happens to your beloved goldens in ten years... its already there... do you think that we responsible breeders can't look at the dogs and know whether you got your dog from a responsible breeder or not??? shoot people don't even have to tell me, I can tell just by looking at their dog, long legged, pointy muzzles, high ear sets... roached backs... thats not including the poor temperaments, health issues and hyperactivity.... I have heard people say that they don't want a golden because everyone has a golden... but a WELL BRED golden is few and far between... I can't tell you how many times we get stopped on the street. People asking if my dogs are short... no they are what a golden should be... asking about their coats and oohing and aaahing because yes there are alot of goldens out there... but not goldens that look like or behave like what a golden is supposed to be.
> 
> ...


Okay first of all, people are just trying to answer my initial question because I really had no idea what the costs were and what not. Many people have given their answers, everyone CAN have different opinions, and that's okay. People on here need to accept that and realize they don't need to shoot back an opinion on everything they don't agree with. That is what starts the controversy and the arguing. Compared to some ridiculous threads I've seen this one really isn't that controversial or argumentative, people just don't agree with what others are saying, so they feel it is another one of those threads. People have given very informative answers to my questions so THANK you to all those people  Everyone just be nice to each other!


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## mooselips (Dec 4, 2011)

We paid $1200.00 for Bridget, and I believe it was worth every penny.
I know she is cleared in all aspects, from a good breeder, and is guaranteed. (like I'd ever give her back...lol)

It's like my father, who passed in 1995 use to say.
"You want to play, you're going to pay"

Breeding is a hard job, and to find a person/s who truly care about the breed to put the time and effort into the job, I tip my hat to them.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

hvgoldens4 said:


> Progesterone levels also tell you more than when the breed. They tell you when she will be DUE. Girls are due 63 days after they ovulate. This information is invaluable if mom has hydrops, goes toxic or fails to go into labor because of dystocia or a handful of other reasons. Puppies are not viable before day 58 because the girls are pregnant for such a short time. Before that, their heart and lungs are just not mature enough and even around day 59-60, if puppies have to be taken early because mom's health is at stake, the mom will be given dexamethasone to help to mature the puppies lungs. These things all happen.
> 
> We had one of our girls go toxic this summer. She was not able to eat and a pregnant girl at the end of her pregnancy needs about 2000 per day to keep herself and the puppies going. She was at a stage where the puppies were rapidly growing so she should have been gaining weight, but because she was unable to eat, she was losing weight. I was prepared to induce labor to save mom. We had progesterone testing, blood work, urinalysis, ultrasounds, xrays, IV fluids for mom-all these things come at a cost......the cost was $1800 and I was driving back and forth to our repro specialist who is 2.5 hours one way almost every day for a week. She did get to day 59 and we saw tooth buds on the xray so we had a shot at the puppies living. She stayed the night at the repro specialist on IV's and was given dex. We did a c-section the next day because to ask her to try to have the puppies when she was weak was not something I was going to do. There were 10 puppies. We lost 2 of them at birth-we couldn't get their breathing regulated depsite being given oxygen, dopram and being at one of the best reproductive clinic's in the world. We lost one more puppy about 6 hours later while we were still at the clinic. The c-section was another $1200.
> 
> ...


I want to personally thank the breeders like you who take the time to explain just how complicated golden retriever breeding and pregnancies can be and the very real risks involved in each breeding. As a pet owner, I've never really thought much about these things, concentrating instead on the end results. It makes me wonder how many golden retriever females owned by the BYBs and millers lose their lives too soon simply to produce a litter of puppies to sell because their owners do not bother to do all the testing or provide life saving treatments and care through a reproductive vet, that the responsible breeders do. After all, it would eat into their bottom line. Sorry, off topic, but I appreciate the knowledge you are imparting to us who aren't in the know.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I totally get Shalva's frustration, just as I get CKB's confusion as to why it gets heated so quickly.

There have been some recent threads where the attitude of some posters has been that the idea of a reputable breeder is a waste of money or somehow elitist. Given that the active GRF members who are breeders are mostly the responsible breeders who work their butts off for the breed while taking significant financial losses in the process, it can sound really insulting to question whether their dogs are "worth it." Even though the vast majority of us are appreciate and supportive, that kind of insult (intended or otherwise) is really going to stand out in your mind.

At the same time, I can completely understand why somebody who's new to the issues wouldn't know about all the things you can do to improve a puppy's odds at a long, healthy life or all the things that can be expensive about producing puppies ethically. And that person wouldn't even necessarily know how to ask for that information without accidentally playing into a long history of insulting posts.

10 years ago, I couldn't have told you the difference between a $300 dog from a cardboard box down the street and a $1500 dog. I would have assumed that the $1500 dog was a "show dog" who had qualifications I didn't care about. It's only since getting educated and then getting an ethically bred dog that I've learned those two startling facts: first, that a well-bred $1500 dog is actually a cheaper dog in the long run than a $300 carelessly bred dog; and second, that even at $1500, a breeder is probably taking a financial loss overall in order to be careful about what homes the dogs go to.


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

Dallas Gold said:


> I want to personally thank the breeders like you who take the time to explain just how complicated golden retriever breeding and pregnancies can be and the very real risks involved in each breeding. As a pet owner, I've never really thought much about these things, concentrating instead on the end results. It makes me wonder how many golden retriever females owned by the BYBs and millers lose their lives too soon simply to produce a litter of puppies to sell because their owners do not bother to do all the testing or provide life saving treatments and care through a reproductive vet, that the responsible breeders do. After all, it would eat into their bottom line. Sorry, off topic, but I appreciate the knowledge you are imparting to us who aren't in the know.


I agree! Actually, my breeders lost one of the little girls in Kenzie's litter in the first 24hrs. There was a little boy that was also very tiny that they were concerned about and they really spent a lot of time and energy making sure that he kept thriving. Luckily he made it!


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## CaseyKaylaBoone:) (Dec 18, 2011)

Shalva said:


> No kidding... I can't tell you how much attention our dogs get when we go out... many people don't even know what a golden is supposed to look like at this point. They are always commenting that my dogs are short... and their most isn't pointy... etc etc... its really amazing. Then I get the puffed out proud story about their golden they used to have that was THIS TALL and a hundred pounds.... and how my dogs don't look anything like his/hers.... well yeah


Okay, excuse me, but don't you think you should give those people, who may have made the mistake from buying from a back yard type breeder the respect they deserve? I am in NO WAY saying byb is right. Me and my boyfriend did it, we may not have a perfect golden, but he is still a golden and absolutely beautiful and in our eyes and in many people's eyes. Not every dog owner is going to have the prime, perfectly bred dog and I find it quite rude and insulting the way you are talking about 'less than perfect goldens.' 
"Then I get the puffed out proud story about their golden they used to have that was THIS TALL and a hundred pounds...and how my dogs don't look anything like his/hers...well yeah."
So just because their golden was, in your opinion, less than perfect they're not aloud to tell about it and be proud of the golden they once had? Seeing a golden I'm sure, reminds them their golden that they miss, and they're just stating an observation that yours looks quite different from theirs. You don't need to go to another level and completely bash them for it. Jeez. I don't know if that's how you meant it, but that's sure how it came across. People on here are all about respecting reputable breeders and not insulting them, but what about those who may have made the mistake of buying from a byb? Shouldn't they and their dogs be respected and not insulted as well? You don't agree with it? Neither do I, but there's no need to insult people.


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## CaseyKaylaBoone:) (Dec 18, 2011)

Shalva said:


> I have no issue with the original poster... I do have an issue with the direction these threads go every single time.
> 
> I get really tired of defending the practices of good breeders. I get tired of reading the postings by folks who go to bad breeders then come and complain or have a sick dog ... but shoot they saved their money... I get tired of being called dishonest when people pick apart what we spend and our justification for charging what we do for puppies because what they are doing is calling all of us liars.
> 
> ...


If it tires you that much, then why involve yourself? Not to be rude, but one doesn't need to put their two sense in to every post like this, especially if it stresses them out. I really don't feel like picking through all the bs of other threads, all the attacking, the arguing etc when I can ask an innocent question, and get informative answers in return. People can't back down from an argument, that is why those threads get heated like they do.


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## Door (Apr 2, 2010)

I paid $1300 for my dog. You will never hear me bashing my breeder, or any of the other reputable breeders.


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## Tennyson (Mar 26, 2011)

CaseyKaylaBoone:) said:


> If it tires you that much, then why involve yourself? Not to be rude, but one doesn't need to put their two sense in to every post like this, especially if it stresses them out. I really don't feel like picking through all the bs of other threads, all the attacking, the arguing etc when I can ask an innocent question, and get informative answers in return. People can't back down from an argument, that is why those threads get heated like they do.


Just curious as to why you would start another thread when you knew beforehand how the others turned out? Basically your thread is no different then the previous threads on this subject.
Why not just read through the other threads and ignore what you call BS?


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Shalva said:


> I have no issue with the original poster... I do have an issue with the direction these threads go every single time.
> 
> I get really tired of defending the practices of good breeders. I get tired of reading the postings by folks who go to bad breeders then come and complain or have a sick dog ... but shoot they saved their money... I get tired of being called dishonest when people pick apart what we spend and our justification for charging what we do for puppies because what they are doing is calling all of us liars.
> 
> ...


If I were a breeder, I would really try not to consider these threads tiresome or needing to defend good breeding practices. Everytime you get an opportunity to educate another person you are giving the breed another chance to taken care of properly. Every person who didn't know and comes here asking these questions, and receives valuable information is one more person who, hopefully, won't go buy a back yard bred dog.

These are opportunities to educate in my opinion.


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## CaseyKaylaBoone:) (Dec 18, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> I totally get Shalva's frustration, just as I get CKB's confusion as to why it gets heated so quickly.
> 
> There have been some recent threads where the attitude of some posters has been that the idea of a reputable breeder is a waste of money or somehow elitist. Given that the active GRF members who are breeders are mostly the responsible breeders who work their butts off for the breed while taking significant financial losses in the process, it can sound really insulting to question whether their dogs are "worth it." Even though the vast majority of us are appreciate and supportive, that kind of insult (intended or otherwise) is really going to stand out in your mind.
> 
> ...


Well you know I'm sorry if it comes off as being insulting, but 1200+ dollars is a lot to throw down on something, when you don't know where your money is going and why it costs what it does. I'm a in no way against what reputable breeders do at all. I just wanted to know. I'm sorry if people get insulted but they have to understand that some times people just don't know and are asking innocent questions. The next golden we get we will save up for and find a great, reputable breeder in our area. I just needed some background info before I could make the decision.


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## CaseyKaylaBoone:) (Dec 18, 2011)

mylissyk said:


> If I were a breeder, I would really try not to consider these threads tiresome as needing to defend good breeding practices. Everytime you get an opportunity to educate another person you are giving the breed another chance to taken care of properly. Every person who didn't know and comes here asking these questions, and receives valuable information is one more person who, hopefully, won't go buy a back yard bred dog.
> 
> These are opportunities to educate in my opinion.


I agree. Because most people on this site are SO dedicated to the breed, I think they maybe don't realize that some who come on here are just the average dog owner, who don't know a lot about it. And so when they ask questions out of curiosity and lack of knowledge, people on here tend to jump to the conclusion that they are completely against reputable breeding when that is not the case at all.


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

Look, if "reputable" breeders had been willing to provide a puppy at a price I could afford (And, yes, I did ask around to see if any would cut me a break), I would have gotten my dog from one of them a few years back. When my dog passes away many years in the future, if a "reputable" breeder is willing to lower her prices for me and we can agree to an arrangement where I pick my own puppy and don't sign a contract (Both things that are very important to me), I'd strongly consider going in that direction at that time, but if none will, I'll find another casual breeder.

Fact is, the only person who would provide me with an eight week old golden retriever puppy at a price I could afford way back when without unwanted strings attached was a hobbyist/casual breeder, or what you folks would call a back yard breeder. I'm happy with him. He's a great dog. Would buy from again. A+++.

You want to start competing on price and on a lack of terms, great. You don't want to do that, folks like me will continue finding people who will. That's how life works. I won't be locked out of having a canine companion and raising him my way by folks who think every dog needs to cost a fortune and poor folks shouldn't have pets.

And you breeders think these threads upset _you_? Trust me, I get very upset when I read a bunch of people basically wishing that folks like me could be locked out of having the pets we love by getting rid of the only breeders who we can afford to buy from.


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## CaseyKaylaBoone:) (Dec 18, 2011)

Tennyson said:


> Just curious as to why you would start another thread when you knew beforehand how the others turned out? Basically your thread is no different then the previous threads on this subject.
> Why not just read through the other threads and ignore what you call BS?


Because I had no intentions of this thread getting to that point. I asked an innocent question and have had really good answers that help me out a lot. There is nothing wrong with asking questions. It's really not my problem that some people have to get so nasty and argumentative, and can't just give their answer and be done with it. 

Please if anyone else is going to post on this thread, please just give an answer to my question and move on. If people read through the thread, they will know what my intentions were and why I asked it so there is not need to question that any longer. It is just going to cause unnecessary arguing and disagreements. I really have already gotten the answers that I was looking for so thank you


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

CaseyKaylaBoone:) said:


> Okay, excuse me, but don't you think you should give those people, who may have made the mistake from buying from a back yard type breeder the respect they deserve? I am in NO WAY saying byb is right. Me and my boyfriend did it, we may not have a perfect golden, but he is still a golden and absolutely beautiful and in our eyes and in many people's eyes. Not every dog owner is going to have the prime, perfectly bred dog and I find it quite rude and insulting the way you are talking about 'less than perfect goldens.'
> "Then I get the puffed out proud story about their golden they used to have that was THIS TALL and a hundred pounds...and how my dogs don't look anything like his/hers...well yeah."
> So just because their golden was, in your opinion, less than perfect they're not aloud to tell about it and be proud of the golden they once had? Seeing a golden I'm sure, reminds them their golden that they miss, and they're just stating an observation that yours looks quite different from theirs. You don't need to go to another level and completely bash them for it. Jeez. I don't know if that's how you meant it, but that's sure how it came across. People on here are all about respecting reputable breeders and not insulting them, but what about those who may have made the mistake of buying from a byb? Shouldn't they and their dogs be respected and not insulted as well? You don't agree with it? Neither do I, but there's no need to insult people.


The point of that, which you missed is that the breed as a whole doesn't look or behave as it was originally intended to. Most people have no idea what a golden retriever SHOULD look like... read the threads above and you will find that folks are having major behavioral and aggression issues... who ever heard of such a thing in a golden retriever.... 

Lets get beyond what they look like... but that is certainly part of what makes a golden a golden... that is type... but lets move beyond that... the point is that many of the breed can't do what it was intended to do... hunt/retrieve... I am hearing of more goldens who won't go get a tennis ball... they don't look like they were intended to look... and yes the type has changed a bit over the years but lets compare alot of these dogs to the standard... and the temperaments aren't what they should be in many many dogs... so many are so co-dependant that they are stressed when apart from their owners... anxious... seperation anxiety... some are aggressive... these temperaments are being seen more and more... what happened to the nice low key stable easy going great with kids dogs???? it used to be that you could trust any (adult) golden with a pile of little kids... and they would be the perfect pup... now I have watched goldens snarl at others, we are reading stories about aggression issues... it's scary .... 

ya know its not about looks... looks are just the indicator... looks tell me where the dog came from because the backyard breeder isn't breeding to the standard and if you keep doing that the dogs lose their type... they stop looking like goldens... but shoot the reality is that from what I can see the majority don't know what a golden should look like. They think that goldens have pointy muzzles and long legs and the dog who is bred to the standard is the exception not the rule. But ok if you (generic you) doesn't care about appearance... about the adorable golden face, the medium size, the easy to care for coat that protects the dog... the strong topline that allows your dog to live to a good long life without back problems... or the proper rear angulation that prevents injuries... of the shoulder layback that allows your dog to run and play and hike without tiring quickly... ok who cares about all that stuff... there are other reasons... its about the other things... the other things that make a golden a golden.. and lets not even talk about the health issues... the allergies... the picking at themselves.... it makes me sad... 

When I hear about dogs up in the main discussion area who ARE aggressive... or who have hip dysplasia... or are going blind... or have such severe allergies that they can't eat .. and when those dogs start increasing in numbers that makes me sad... and it makes me worry about the future of the breed... and I, Tahnee, HV, Pointgold, Sallys, Conqueror, Sunkissed and anyone I missed can only do so much when there are ten backyard breeders not breeding to the standard not watching temperament not screening their puppy people to every one of us.


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## CaseyKaylaBoone:) (Dec 18, 2011)

Shalva said:


> The point of that, which you missed is that the breed as a whole doesn't look or behave as it was originally intended to. Most people have no idea what a golden retriever SHOULD look like... read the threads above and you will find that folks are having major behavioral and aggression issues... who ever heard of such a thing in a golden retriever....
> 
> Lets get beyond what they look like... but that is certainly part of what makes a golden a golden... that is type... but lets move beyond that... the point is that many of the breed can't do what it was intended to do... hunt/retrieve... I am hearing of more goldens who won't go get a tennis ball... they don't look like they were intended to look... and yes the type has changed a bit over the years but lets compare alot of these dogs to the standard... and the temperaments aren't what they should be in many many dogs... so many are so co-dependant that they are stressed when apart from their owners... anxious... seperation anxiety... some are aggressive... these temperaments are being seen more and more... what happened to the nice low key stable easy going great with kids dogs????
> 
> ...


I understand. That's not how it came across initially but I do totally understand. Can't say I totally agree but whatever not everyone is going to see eye to eye on the issue. Have a great day


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

CaseyKaylaBoone:) said:


> I understand. That's not how it came across initially but I do totally understand. Can't say I totally agree but whatever not everyone is going to see eye to eye on the issue. Have a great day


My original comments were not directed at you... more at the person who was talking about the 800 bucks profit (which is unheard of) and the things that a litter needed and didn't need... not directed at you at all...


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## CaseyKaylaBoone:) (Dec 18, 2011)

Shalva said:


> My original comments were not directed at you... more at the person who was talking about the 800 bucks profit (which is unheard of) and the things that a litter needed and didn't need... not directed at you at all...


Oh I know they weren't directed at me, but they still seemed insulting nonetheless to me and to those who do have byb dogs.


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

Would never have been born if not for a "backyard" breeder, and my life would be very diminished for his absence:


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## CaseyKaylaBoone:) (Dec 18, 2011)

Golden999 said:


> Would never have been born if not for a "backyard" breeder, and my life would be very diminished for his absence:


I feel the same about mine. I don't agree with the way some byb treat their pups and the way their making their money, but my Boone is an amazing dog byb or not. My life would be bland with out him.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

see but thats it... its not about your individual dog... its not about your dog that you love... it is about the future of the breed and that is the big difference between a backyard breeder and a responsible breeder... to me anyway. Shoot I had a couple mixed breeds years ago... the BEST dogs ever,,,, emily and oliver... before that my husband was afraid of dogs..without them we would not be in the place that we are now and have the lives that we currently have; but that doesn't mean that I would encourage folks to be deliberately breeding mixed breed dogs... even though I loved my dogs and am right now looking at an artists rendition of the hanging in my living room. 

I have a litter planned for next year... for example... but I am breeding that litter with the next litter after that in mind... and I have a pretty good idea of the direction that I want to go in the long run. Right now I have plans for at least the next three litters... I am excited for this upcoming litter but only in what it will allow me to do in the litter after that and after that. I and the other responsible breeders are thinking about the future of the breed. How can we improve the breed so it is stronger and healthier in ten years or twenty years or forty years. It is not about THIS litter ... it is about the future of the breed... 

When I see folks going to backyard breeders I know they love their dog... I am glad they love their dog... but they aren't helping the breed. By buying your pup from the folks who only care about what money they can put into their pocket from this litter it harms the breed as a whole. If we on this board (and we are all here because we love the breed) can acknowledge loving the breed then we should be the ones who are working hard to preserve the breed at all costs .... there are plenty of people out there fighting against purebred dogs ... don't we want to be the ones to protect the breed we love and the future direction of that breed?


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I don't think the point was that people shouldn't be proud of their dogs, but that they shouldn't be proud when dogs are out of standard in ways that make them less healthy. It's not a point of pride that your Golden is 100 pounds. It's a problem.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

CaseyKaylaBoone:) said:


> Well you know I'm sorry if it comes off as being insulting, but 1200+ dollars is a lot to throw down on something, when you don't know where your money is going and why it costs what it does. I'm a in no way against what reputable breeders do at all. I just wanted to know. I'm sorry if people get insulted but they have to understand that some times people just don't know and are asking innocent questions. The next golden we get we will save up for and find a great, reputable breeder in our area. I just needed some background info before I could make the decision.


That's kind of my point. I don't think you intended an insult. I just hope you can see why the question itself can feel insulting, even if there's no intent in the first place. Shalva's an awesome breeder and a great advocate for the breed, so I hope you can understand the exhaustion and frustration of seeing post after post that questions the value of doing it right. Unlike you, who seemed to ask it very genuinely, too many people ask it because they want to excuse shoddy breeding practices.

It's easier for me to deal with the frustration because I'm not a breeder, so it doesn't feel so personal to me. But if I'd poured tears and sweat and money into breeding properly, I think I'd have a much shorter fuse.

Personally, I'm glad that you came to find out about these issues and that you seem open to spending more money upfront in order to spend less in the long run and to save your dog from unnecessary health risks.


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

Shalva said:


> see but thats it... its not about your individual dog... its not about your dog that you love...


But, see, for many of us, it is about the dogs we love, because not only would the individual dogs we love not exist if there were no "backyard" breeders, we'd have been priced out of owning a golden retriever puppy and raising him at all. That picture I posted wouldn't be of another golden in some alternate universe where less expensive breeders didn't exist, it'd be an empty picture of sidewalk. 



> When I see folks going to backyard breeders I know they love their dog... I am glad they love their dog... but they aren't helping the breed.


What does the breed matter to me if I'll never be able to own a golden again? The breed is relevant to me because I am a current golden owner, and have some hope of being a golden owner a third time when my current golden passes. If goldens become a thing for just folks with lots of money, only folks with lots of money will care.



> there are plenty of people out there fighting against purebred dogs ... don't we want to be the ones to protect the breed we love and the future direction of that breed?


One thing to think about along those lines: Like you said, one of the issues right now purebred advocates (Which I think everyone here on both side of the byb issue is at least some extent) face is that there are a growing number of people who are against any type of intentional dog breeding these days and the concept of purebred dogs. Now, those people who are against purebreds are going to be voting in elections and for local ordinances and those sort of things, so wouldn't it behoove us then to get as many golden retrievers as possible into the hands of people who want and would care for a golden retriever? 

The more golden retriever owners out there, the more people with a personal investment in seeing purebreds and purebred breeders (Of any stripe) being allowed to continue to exist. And the lower the cost of the dogs, the more people who will be able to afford to buy them.


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## CaseyKaylaBoone:) (Dec 18, 2011)

Shalva said:


> see but thats it... its not about your individual dog... its not about your dog that you love... it is about the future of the breed and that is the big difference between a backyard breeder and a responsible breeder... to me anyway. Shoot I had a couple mixed breeds years ago... the BEST dogs ever,,,, emily and oliver... before that my husband was afraid of dogs... but that doesn't mea that I would encourage folks to be deliberately breeding mixed breed dogs... even though I loved my dogs and am right now looking at an artists rendition of the hanging in my living room.
> 
> I have a litter planned for next year... for example... but I am breeding that litter with the next litter after that in mind... and I have a pretty good idea of the direction that I want to go in the long run. I am excited for this upcoming litter but only in what it will allow me to do in the litter after that and after that. I and the other responsible breeders are thinking about the future of the breed. How can we improve the breed so it is stronger and healthier in ten years or twenty years or forty years. It is not about THIS litter ... it is about the future of the breed...
> 
> When I see folks going to backyard breeders I know they love their dog... I am glad they love their dog... but they aren't helping the breed. By buying your pup from the folks who only care about what money they can put into their pocket from this litter it harms the breed as a whole. If we on this board (and we are all here because we love the breed) can acknowledge loving the breed then we should be the ones who are working hard to preserve the breed at all costs .... there are plenty of people out there fighting against purebred dogs ... don't we want to be the ones to protect the breed we love and the future direction of that breed?


It's great that there are people like yourself who invest so much into the breed. The fact is though, there will be and will most likely always be those back yard breeders..AND there will always be great breeders like yourself who invest so much into it and produce great dogs. There will never be a equilibrium and people will ALWAYS argue their opinion on this matter. I don't want this thread turning into that because that is not why this thread was started or the question I initially asked. I have an opinion that I know will stir up some heat so I'd rather not say it here. And I feel like that is what many should do, but don't. There will NEVER be a common ground. Shalva I'm not directing that at you, but it kind of coincides with the first half of my response to your post.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Most of us had a BYB dog at some point. Mine was lovely but needed expensive joint surgery when he was a few years old and then died at 7. I'd never give him up or his memory, but that doesn't vindicate the bad breeding practices that put him at risk in the first place. What I loved about him were the things that the good breeders in his ancestry helped protect: that magical Golden temperament. The BYBers that produced him were moving the breed _away_ from that standard. The fact that I got lucky with an amazing dog doesn't vindicate them, just as the fact that he came from a BYB doesn't take away his specialness or his place in my heart.

So saying a BYB is a bad place to get a dog doesn't mean that your BYB dog is a bad dog. It's two different issues.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Golden999 said:


> But, see, for many of us, it is about the dogs we love, because not only would the individual dogs we love not exist if there were no "backyard" breeders, we'd have been priced out of owning a golden retriever puppy and raising him at all. That picture I posted wouldn't be of another golden in some alternate universe where less expensive breeders didn't exist, it'd be an empty picture of sidewalk.


This is just bad math. BYB dogs are _more_ expensive in the long run than properly bred dogs. If you can afford to take on double the risk of a $5000 surgery, you can afford the difference in price between a BYB and a good breeder.

You need _more_ money when you take on a dog with an unknown health ancestry, not less.

I do not accept that it's cheaper to lower the upfront cost of a dog by gambling with his health in the long run. It just _looks_ cheaper.


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## Montana's Mommy (Mar 10, 2009)

My pup 3 years ago was $1000 cause she had 12 pups in the litter, normally charged 1200. I still had chaos and issues with my boy and cost me way more then that to make him better. I would pay 1500 for a family dog from a great breeder who I would be almost Guaranteed no health issues.


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## CaseyKaylaBoone:) (Dec 18, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> This is just bad math. BYB dogs are _more_ expensive in the long run than properly bred dogs. If you can afford to take on double the risk of a $5000 surgery, you can afford the difference in price between a BYB and a good breeder.
> 
> You need _more_ money when you take on a dog with an unknown health ancestry, not less.
> 
> I do not accept that it's cheaper to lower the upfront cost of a dog by gambling with his health in the long run. It just _looks_ cheaper.


I do agree with that! With my dog Boone we spent as much in the first couple months actually, as we would have to just buy from a reputable breeder, but we just weren't looking to spend that much when we were looking for one. And we charged the vet expenses, which you can't really do with a pup, but that's irrelevant. My thought processes about buying a golden now however, are very different than they were when we bought Boone. I, firsthand feel like I can understand both sides now because of the experience we've went through with Boone. I understand that spending over a grand is a lot of money, but when your dog almost dies a week after you get him, your spending just as much as you could on a reputably bred dog, don't know if that's even a good term. This thread has really helped me fully understand this and make my decision for buying my next golden, so no there is NOTHING wrong with me posting this question, I don't care if people get heated because that's their own issues not mine. I feel like those of you who are reputable breeders should appreciate questions like this because it really formed my decision on where/how/who to buy my next golden from, which will most likely be a reputable breeder.


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

Another big difference in breeders is that they will stand behind their dogs. Within 24hrs of bringing Kenzie home she ended up in ER vet (dehydration from long carried in 100 heat coupled with coccidia). My breeder immediately offered to pay for everything.

My first golden was from a byb and I wouldn't have traded her for all of the best bred dogs in the world. That doesn't mean I'll support byb ever again. 1200 was very very expensive for me also-I saved up for Kenzie for about 6 months to get her. Not everyone will be able to purchase from a responsible breeder without planning, but most people should be able to save up for a well breed dog.


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## CaseyKaylaBoone:) (Dec 18, 2011)

Jennifer1 said:


> Another big difference in breeders is that they will stand behind their dogs. Within 24hrs of bringing Kenzie home she ended up in ER vet (dehydration from long carried in 100 heat coupled with coccidia). My breeder immediately offered to pay for everything.
> 
> My first golden was from a byb and I wouldn't have traded her for all of the best bred dogs in the world. That doesn't mean I'll support byb ever again. 1200 was very very expensive for me also-I saved up for Kenzie for about 6 months to get her. Not everyone will be able to purchase from a responsible breeder without planning, but most people should be able to save up for a well breed dog.


Your absolutely right. Thank you  I plan to save for my next goldie locks and am pretty excited actually to buy from a reputable breeder. The lady we got Boone from was a complete joke and wouldn't stand by her puppies even with twenty bucks, so it'll be interesting to experience a reputable breeder.


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

tippykayak said:


> This is just bad math. BYB dogs are _more_ expensive in the long run than properly bred dogs. If you can afford to take on double the risk of a $5000 surgery, you can afford the difference in price between a BYB and a good breeder.
> 
> You need _more_ money when you take on a dog with an unknown health ancestry, not less.
> 
> I do not accept that it's cheaper to lower the upfront cost of a dog by gambling with his health in the long run. It just _looks_ cheaper.


I don't think I've ever met a dog owner, even though I know some who could afford to do so, who would pay $5,000 for a veterinary surgical procedure. My guess is that if you asked most vets, most dog owners presented with that scenario decline the procedure. Obviously, that ratio would be a lot different on a forum like this of dog enthusiasts than in real life, though (I expect most people here who could afford it would pay it- I would if I could [though I can't]).

In that type of scenario, I think I'd level with the vet and say "The money just isn't there. What are our alternatives?" and work from there. Sometimes there are alternate procedures or courses of treatment. Sometimes a vet might offer to let you pay in installments to make it more affordable. One might be able to shop around and ask other vets what they charge to perform the initially recommended procedure there. Maybe some relatives or friends would offer a loan in an extreme case. There are lots of potential avenues there.

One also sometimes has to make a tough decision where it's like "A golden's life expectancy is 10-12 years. This dog is 14 and has cancer that's spread through the whole body. Chemo is rarely effective with dogs, will lower the dog's quality of life, and even if it works, the dog will die of old age soon anyway." and consider palliative care like steroids and pain killers versus radiation therapy or whatever.

It'd be nice to have more low-cost vets, though. If that's part of what you're saying, I'm in full agreement with that.


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## Amberbark (Oct 5, 2011)

*Awkward......*

This is my first time writing of this other than PMing a couple of folks. In a nutshell, our beautiful Amber was purchased from a BYB as a result of my husband, who has always wanted a golden, and did not want to take the time to do the research or spend the money for a titled, health-certified puppy. As I had raised/shown Irish setters that I had purchased from reputable breeders in the past, I provided him with all of the information and recommendations. Nonetheless, I tried my best to pick from a litter that he found in our local area for a price of $400 for an AKC (loosely-termed) puppy. I put everything that I had learned from my breeders into selecting for a calm temperament/type and based on observing BOTH parents. The owners had sent away for the litter registration and did not have them back for me to see. 
I discovered when I received Amber's pedigree that she is the result of a brother/sister breeding. I was sick to my stomach and only through the kindness of two individuals here, was I not flamed and told that it can happen to the best of us. 
We wait to see if Ms. Amber doubled up on any inherited health issues as we love her and take the best of care that we can.
The Return on Investment (ROI) of the money that you spend may be tenfold to the money and heartache that you spend on a BYB pup by purchasing a puppy from a reputable breeder whose parents have their titles and with the required health clearances. :wavey: Vicki


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Here is a Forbes article written by one of our forum members that discusses the issue: How Much is that Doggie in the Window? The Surprising Economics of Purchasing a Purebred Puppy - Forbes


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

Golden999 said:


> One thing to think about along those lines: Like you said, one of the issues right now purebred advocates (Which I think everyone here on both side of the byb issue is at least some extent) face is that there are a growing number of people who are against any type of intentional dog breeding these days and the concept of purebred dogs. Now, those people who are against purebreds are going to be voting in elections and for local ordinances and those sort of things, so wouldn't it behoove us then to get as many golden retrievers as possible into the hands of people who want and would care for a golden retriever?
> 
> The more golden retriever owners out there, the more people with a personal investment in seeing purebreds and purebred breeders (Of any stripe) being allowed to continue to exist. And the lower the cost of the dogs, the more people who will be able to afford to buy them.


By the way, one interesting thing I've noticed. When I first got my dog as a puppy, we literally saw no golden retrievers in our walks around the area. Now there are at least 3-4 in the areas where we walk. One person came up to me and said she bought her golden retriever specifically because she saw me walking my dog as a puppy and had a brief conversation with me, remembered the breed name (Which previously she hadn't heard of), and went out and got her own.

There is actually a fairly low awareness of golden retrievers as a breed, but many people see them and instantly fall in love with them. My dog is no longer a puppy, but strangers still coo at him and say "Oooo, look at the puppy". They are really cute dogs with puppy like expressions that sometimes last their whole lives. Not all dog breeds are like that. I think they'd be the most owned dog breed in America if people all knew what they had to offer.

Of course, there would also be some people who wanted guard dog breeds, or smaller dogs, or dogs who were less active or less emotionally needy (I like that trait in goldens, but not everyone does). But I think there are a lot of folks who would love what a golden brings to the table who simply don't have much of an awareness of the breed.


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## GoldenMum (Mar 15, 2010)

Golden999 said:


> > I don't think I've ever met a dog owner, even though I know some who could afford to do so, who would pay $5,000 for a veterinary surgical procedure.
> 
> 
> My guess is that if you asked most vets, most dog owners presented with that scenario decline the procedure. Obviously, that ratio would be a lot different on a forum like this of dog enthusiasts than in real life, though (I expect most people here who could afford it would pay it- I would if I could [though I can't]).
> ...


We'll glad to meet you GOLDEN999....I am one of those folks! I have 4 Goldens........2 from byb, 2 from rescue. When one of my rescues was 9 months old, he needed double OCD surgery on his shoulders. I coughed up the money so he'd have a limp free, pain free life.......after all was said and done, just over $5,000.00 in his first year.

Would I get another byb dog? Don't think so, mine are both about to turn 12, and have been great healthy dogs, in breed standard, just the normal aging ailments (knocking on wood here). I think I would either go with a great reputable breeder, or rescue again......even though I paid more in $$$s....I am a huge fan of rescue, and second chances!


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

GoldenMum said:


> We'll glad to meet you GOLDEN999....I am one of those folks! I have 4 Goldens........2 from byb, 2 from rescue. When one of my rescues was 9 months old, he needed double OCD surgery on his shoulders. I coughed up the money so he'd have a limp free, pain free life.......after all was said and done, just over $5,000.00 in his first year.
> 
> Would I get another byb dog? Don't think so, mine are both about to turn 12, and have been great healthy dogs, in breed standard, just the normal aging ailments (knocking on wood here). I think I would either go with a great reputable breeder, or rescue again......even though I paid more in $$$s....I am a huge fan of rescue, and second chances!


We also got close to the 5K mark with our golden's double cataract surgery. He was adopted from a golden rescue, but came with AKC papers, which, in light of his health issues, mean absolutely nothing, since his breeder didn't do all of the clearances on the parents. He did some, but not all four. In addition to the cataract issues, our boy has suffered from numerous other issues related to digestive enzyme deficiencies which required expensive diagnostic testing, so we've easily gone over the $5000 mark last year when the surgery occurred. We love him and will spend what is necessary for his health and well-being.


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## Dallas Gold (Dec 22, 2007)

Golden999 said:


> By the way, one interesting thing I've noticed. When I first got my dog as a puppy, we literally saw no golden retrievers in our walks around the area. Now there are at least 3-4 in the areas where we walk. One person came up to me and said she bought her golden retriever specifically because she saw me walking my dog as a puppy and had a brief conversation with me, remembered the breed name (Which previously she hadn't heard of), and went out and got her own.
> 
> There is actually a fairly low awareness of golden retrievers as a breed, but many people see them and instantly fall in love with them. My dog is no longer a puppy, but strangers still coo at him and say "Oooo, look at the puppy". They are really cute dogs with puppy like expressions that sometimes last their whole lives. Not all dog breeds are like that. I think they'd be the most owned dog breed in America if people all knew what they had to offer.
> 
> Of course, there would also be some people who wanted guard dog breeds, or smaller dogs, or dogs who were less active or less emotionally needy (I like that trait in goldens, but not everyone does). But I think there are a lot of folks who would love what a golden brings to the table who simply don't have much of an awareness of the breed.


 Goldens have always been one of the most popular breeds on the stats put our by the AKC for decades. I think you need to get out more as they are often used for advertising and in movies. They are very well known and recognized.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Golden999 said:


> I don't think I've ever met a dog owner, even though I know some who could afford to do so, who would pay $5,000 for a veterinary surgical procedure. My guess is that if you asked most vets, most dog owners presented with that scenario decline the procedure. Obviously, that ratio would be a lot different on a forum like this of dog enthusiasts than in real life, though (I expect most people here who could afford it would pay it- I would if I could [though I can't]).


All the more reason to save up in the first place and pay a much smaller amount in order to avoid the chance of this scenario being presented to you. I just don't see how you can buy a dog at a high risk for hip dysplasia and then turn around and let him live with it when it shows up. That seems to me to be an even bigger reason to buy a cleared dog in the first place.



Golden999 said:


> One also sometimes has to make a tough decision where it's like "A golden's life expectancy is 10-12 years. This dog is 14 and has cancer that's spread through the whole body. Chemo is rarely effective with dogs, will lower the dog's quality of life, and even if it works, the dog will die of old age soon anyway." and consider palliative care like steroids and pain killers versus radiation therapy or whatever.
> 
> It'd be nice to have more low-cost vets, though. If that's part of what you're saying, I'm in full agreement with that.


Well, chemo actually works really well sometimes, and sometimes the side effects on the dog are minimal. With a 14 year old dog and metastasized cancer, sure. With a younger dog and early detection, you could potentially get _years_ more by opting for chemo in some situations.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I should add that I highly admire people who take on rescued Goldens with elevated or unknown risk factors. I love you for that, and I love your dog too. A dog doesn't choose his breeding, after all. He just has to live with the consequences. So for those of you that take on those dogs, you're heroes to me, but more importantly, you're heroes to that dog who doesn't know about money or clearances; he just knows he's your best dog.


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

Golden999 said:


> I don't think I've ever met a dog owner, even though I know some who could afford to do so, who would pay $5,000 for a veterinary surgical procedure. My guess is that if you asked most vets, most dog owners presented with that scenario decline the procedure. Obviously, that ratio would be a lot different on a forum like this of dog enthusiasts than in real life, though (I expect most people here who could afford it would pay it- I would if I could [though I can't]).


I spent close to 8K in treatment for an incurable aggressive cancer in Bear just to keep her comfortable for an extra 2 months. Luckily, I had pet insurance on her so was reimbursed all but 2K, but I would have done it anyways. And again, I couldn't afford it, but always seem to find a way when I really really need to.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

I would go in debt for anything Molly needs, but thank goodness I have pet insurance that I just upgraded to include alternative therapies! Sorry, I'm a bit excited that Trupanion now offers this


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

CaseyKaylaBoone,

When you are ready to find a puppy I would check out the Golden Retriever Club of San Diego County's website (shameless plug since I'm the webmaster), there is a lot of helpful information on the site and our club does litter referrals. Feel free to PM me also with any questions since you are in San Diego as well.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

Golden999 said:


> I don't think I've ever met a dog owner, even though I know some who could afford to do so, who would pay $5,000 for a veterinary surgical procedure. My guess is that if you asked most vets, most dog owners presented with that scenario decline the procedure. Obviously, that ratio would be a lot different on a forum like this of dog enthusiasts than in real life, though (I expect most people here who could afford it would pay it- I would if I could [though I can't]).
> 
> In that type of scenario, I think I'd level with the vet and say "The money just isn't there. What are our alternatives?" and work from there. Sometimes there are alternate procedures or courses of treatment. Sometimes a vet might offer to let you pay in installments to make it more affordable. One might be able to shop around and ask other vets what they charge to perform the initially recommended procedure there. Maybe some relatives or friends would offer a loan in an extreme case. There are lots of potential avenues there.
> 
> ...


 
Well, I used to think I would never pay $5,000 for a surgical procedure on my dog too - until last summer when my healthy, four year old golden ate a face cloth. He threw it up, but unfortunately left a piece with a string attached. After $2000 dollars spent in diagnostics, surgery was the only answer, and it had to be done quickly. The final bill was between 5 - 6k, and worth every penny. Within a couple weeks, Brady was back to his normal self.


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## CaseyKaylaBoone:) (Dec 18, 2011)

Oh another question, to get prices from reputable breeders do you need to contact them or do they ever list prices on their website?


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

Many list prices on their websites, so check there first. If not listed, I did go ahead and ask. I noticed that all of the breeders in the area I was looking were the exact same price.


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## inge (Sep 20, 2009)

My breeder's website is actually very outdated. They never put upcoming litters or prices on it. You would have to call them to get that information. Some breeders are just not so very computer savvy...


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

If it was directed at me Shalva...I never said anyone would make $800. Thats what I was saying the price of the puppy would be. 

I dont care for show dogs. I really dont. I dont buy based on how fancy a dog can stand in a show ring. I purchase a dog for its workability. Shepherds are an example here. I dont care if the crippled American lined frog leg Shepherd won 800 ribbons for BIS. I want a properly bred, workable GSD that can work. 

I would rather pay $800 for a dog whos parents have had clearances and have PROVEN their working ability vs a dog who costs me $1500 and parents have clearances and just a bunch of material ribbons. 

Sorry, this is my opinion. I dont want show, I want a working dog which is what dogs were meant to do.


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## Tennyson (Mar 26, 2011)

I can honestly say that Mick has never worked a day in his life. That's the way he and I like it.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> This is just bad math. BYB dogs are _more_ expensive in the long run than properly bred dogs. If you can afford to take on double the risk of a $5000 surgery, you can afford the difference in price between a BYB and a good breeder.
> 
> You need _more_ money when you take on a dog with an unknown health ancestry, not less.
> 
> I do not accept that it's cheaper to lower the upfront cost of a dog by gambling with his health in the long run. It just _looks_ cheaper.


That varies. I have 3 examples with my own dogs. 

Ruby- A mutt...purchased from a breeder who Im shocked even knew how to breed. What has she cost me since I got her almost 10 years ago? $1000. Thats for HW/Flea, blood work, x rays (for a general health check) and 2 bouts of Giardia...thats it. 

Lincoln- My BYB Malinois...$6,000-$7,000 in his 5 short years of life...for health issues...not including vaccines, HW etc

Maximus- My Rottweiler, imported from another country...papered, parents had clearances all the works. Total for him? over $10,000 for JUST health issues. Wanna know what I paid for him after I paid for him, kennel and flight?.....$5,000. 



Golden999 said:


> I don't think I've ever met a dog owner, even though I know some who could afford to do so, who would pay $5,000 for a veterinary surgical procedure. My guess is that if you asked most vets, most dog owners presented with that scenario decline the procedure. Obviously, that ratio would be a lot different on a forum like this of dog enthusiasts than in real life, though (I expect most people here who could afford it would pay it- I would if I could [though I can't]).
> 
> In that type of scenario, I think I'd level with the vet and say "The money just isn't there. What are our alternatives?" and work from there. Sometimes there are alternate procedures or courses of treatment. Sometimes a vet might offer to let you pay in installments to make it more affordable. One might be able to shop around and ask other vets what they charge to perform the initially recommended procedure there. Maybe some relatives or friends would offer a loan in an extreme case. There are lots of potential avenues there.
> 
> ...


I would never be able to afford to pay $5,000 up front for a surgery. I know several people who never could either. Would be different if I had insurance


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

A1Malinois said:


> If it was directed at me Shalva...I never said anyone would make $800. Thats what I was saying the price of the puppy would be.
> 
> I dont care for show dogs. I really dont. I dont buy based on how fancy a dog can stand in a show ring. I purchase a dog for its workability. Shepherds are an example here. I dont care if the crippled American lined frog leg Shepherd won 800 ribbons for BIS. I want a properly bred, workable GSD that can work.
> 
> ...


I believe there are working dog titles also. Again it's the definition of "proven" that would be the point of disagreement.
I know people with labs that don't care about conformation titles, but you bet your last dollar they care about field titles when looking at purchasing a dog.


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## Jennifer1 (Mar 31, 2012)

A1Malinois said:


> That varies. I have 3 examples with my own dogs.
> 
> Ruby- A mutt...purchased from a breeder who Im shocked even knew how to breed. What has she cost me since I got her almost 10 years ago? $1000. Thats for HW/Flea, blood work, x rays (for a general health check) and 2 bouts of Giardia...thats it.
> 
> ...


There is going to be exceptions to any rule. But it's just that, an exception. I know a guy who refuses to wear a seatbelt because he knows someone who survived a car crash BECAUSE he didn't have a seatbelt on and slide down the seat and avoided an impact to the head. The guy was lucky, that's all. Wouldn't make me chose to not wear a seatbelt.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

A1Malinois said:


> If it was directed at me Shalva...I never said anyone would make $800. Thats what I was saying the price of the puppy would be.
> 
> I dont care for show dogs. I really dont. I dont buy based on how fancy a dog can stand in a show ring. I purchase a dog for its workability. Shepherds are an example here. I dont care if the crippled American lined frog leg Shepherd won 800 ribbons for BIS. I want a properly bred, workable GSD that can work.
> 
> ...


I agree with you about shepherds... it hurts to watch them move but we are not talking about shepherds... we are talking about structurally sound goldens... and a structurally sound golden does that "show stance" or a stack naturally because they are balanced... 

In goldens we breed for that because it is structurally sound so to discount so quickly the things that we breeders are doing without having an understanding of why is foolish.... most people who want goldens want a dog that can hike and be active with them... that is why they get sporting dogs... so they can hike and run and walk and throw the ball and watch them swim etc etc and a dog that is not structurally sound can't do those things. 

Like I said earlier... proper shoulder angulation allows a dog to have reach so they can cover the ground without tiring... proper rear angulation helps prevent injuries and gives them the drive they need to propel themselves forward without tiring out and to move forward in a straight line ... a strong topline gives them the strength they need to support themselves and their body... I can tell which puppies are structurally sound before I even put them on the table by watching them stand they stack themselves naturally so that show "stance" that looks pretty is not just about a pretty dog it is about a structurally sound dog. That is what we are doing at shows... we are having someone who doesn't LOVE our dogs evaluate our dogs... it is easy to only see what you want when you love your dog so having a third party evaluate the structural soundness of our dogs is what we are doing at shows. Let me just say one more thing... 

MY dogs can go hunt and go into the breed ring on the same day .... THEY DO what they were meant to do and they show.... I showed a flat coat to a group win after dunking her in a river... The reality is that the goal should be a structurally sound dog... who can also do what the breed was intended to do .... it is not an either or thing ... and the either or attitude has ruined many a breed...


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

Tennyson said:


> I can honestly say that Mick has never worked a day in his life. That's the way he and I like it.


Thats great that yours hasnt worked. Mine hasnt either because of his joint problems. I like the workability to be there when I need it and IMO a dog meant for the show ring...cant meet those needs for me


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

A1Malinois said:


> Thats great that yours hasnt worked. Mine hasnt either because of his joint problems. I like the workability to be there when I need it and IMO a dog meant for the show ring...cant meet those needs for me


sounds to me like you aren't looking at the right breeders.... NOT TO MENTION that we aren't talking about shepherds or mals here are we??? we are talking about goldens... and there are many goldens that can do the job AND go in the show ring... I am breeding to one of them... Can. Ch., Master Hunter... AKC pointed... yep he does it all... and he is pretty


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

A1Malinois said:


> If it was directed at me Shalva...I never said anyone would make $800. Thats what I was saying the price of the puppy would be.
> 
> I dont care for show dogs. I really dont. I dont buy based on how fancy a dog can stand in a show ring. I purchase a dog for its workability. Shepherds are an example here. I dont care if the crippled American lined frog leg Shepherd won 800 ribbons for BIS. I want a properly bred, workable GSD that can work.
> 
> ...


I should not get into it, but in Goldens (the breed this forum is DEVOTED to), you are not going to find this mythical breeder who does all the clearances but doesn't have registered dogs, or the breeder who does all the pedigree research to find healthy dogs and then has no interest in competing in any venue....and although I am not any kind of expert on GSDs, I doubt you are going to find a breeder who does all the clearances and research into health and sells the pups for $800.

A reputable breeder is not in it to make money. I don't know how else to say it. It isn't about pricing someone out of the market, although it does say something about a potential purchaser if they can't save up the money to purchase the pup (like how they will pay for future expenses or how well though out the purchase is?). For the breeders I know, the dogs are their beloved companions and the puppies are also a part of their hearts. When I picked up our new pup Dugan last week, Pat the breeder did not want to let him go, we actually felt bad leaving with him. 

Mixed breed dogs can be just as wonderful as a well bred Golden. I have my Duffy right next to me now. However he is not nearly as healthy as my Selli, nor is his temperament as nice. Do I think he is less worthy of my love and time? Not at all. But would it not be nice if every puppy born had the same amount of care and attention put into their creation that went into Selli or the pups produced by the breeders like Shalva and HV?


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

A1Malinois said:


> That varies. I have 3 examples with my own dogs.
> 
> Ruby- A mutt...purchased from a breeder who Im shocked even knew how to breed. What has she cost me since I got her almost 10 years ago? $1000. Thats for HW/Flea, blood work, x rays (for a general health check) and 2 bouts of Giardia...thats it.
> 
> ...


O.K., so you got screwed twice and had a healthy mixed breed. The statistics support the fact that dogs with clearances are less likely to have the health issues related to those areas. But if your experiences have soured you on registered dogs, buck the facts and get yourself another mixed breed.

Oh, and by the way, you could have purchased a Rottie from the US, saved enough on the shipping to pay for health insurance for that dog and not have had to spend the $10,000 on health issues.


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## OnMyWay2MyDreams (Feb 13, 2011)

A1Malinois said:


> Thats great that yours hasnt worked. Mine hasnt either because of his joint problems. I like the workability to be there when I need it and IMO a dog meant for the show ring...cant meet those needs for me


Maybe for GSD that is a problem. I agree the "show" GSD, Especially in the AKC ring, wouldn't be able to "work" because of their horrible back ends (I hate the way they have been bred) but just because a dog is in the show ring doesn't mean it can't do more! Have you not seen some of the dogs on this forum and their titles?! Tito himself has done pretty much every event (and then some lol) 

In the past 1 1/2 yrs My Lilly has been in the show ring, going thru obedience with her now and thinking of trying agility.. Her mother is not a CH but has earned obedience title and in her pedigree there's CH's as well as Hunters. If I had any interest in hunting I would give that a try but I don't it, I coud see her doing pretty good with that. So she can do more than one thing., she's got beauty and brains and can work...so it is possible.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

Shalva said:


> sounds to me like you aren't looking at the right breeders.... NOT TO MENTION that we aren't talking about shepherds or mals here are we??? we are talking about goldens... and there are many goldens that can do the job AND go in the show ring... I am breeding to one of them... Can. Ch., Master Hunter... AKC pointed... yep he does it all... and he is pretty


I dont care if we arent talking about GSD or Mals, it was an example I used



Selli-Belle said:


> I should not get into it, but in Goldens (the breed this forum is DEVOTED to), you are not going to find this mythical breeder who does all the clearances but doesn't have registered dogs, or the breeder who does all the pedigree research to find healthy dogs and then has no interest in competing in any venue....and although I am not any kind of expert on GSDs, I doubt you are going to find a breeder who does all the clearances and research into health and sells the pups for $800.
> 
> A reputable breeder is not in it to make money. I don't know how else to say it. It isn't about pricing someone out of the market, although it does say something about a potential purchaser if they can't save up the money to purchase the pup (like how they will pay for future expenses or how well though out the purchase is?). For the breeders I know, the dogs are their beloved companions and the puppies are also a part of their hearts. When I picked up our new pup Dugan last week, Pat the breeder did not want to let him go, we actually felt bad leaving with him.
> 
> Mixed breed dogs can be just as wonderful as a well bred Golden. I have my Duffy right next to me now. However he is not nearly as healthy as my Selli, nor is his temperament as nice. Do I think he is less worthy of my love and time? Not at all. But would it not be nice if every puppy born had the same amount of care and attention put into their creation that went into Selli or the pups produced by the breeders like Shalva and HV?


I know someone who sells pups for $800 parents have had all clearances. I also know someone who sells GSD/Mal mixes for $1200 with NO clearances (not that I agree with that)



Selli-Belle said:


> O.K., so you got screwed twice and had a healthy mixed breed. The statistics support the fact that dogs with clearances are less likely to have the health issues related to those areas. But if your experiences have soured you on registered dogs, buck the facts and get yourself another mixed breed.
> 
> Oh, and by the way, you could have purchased a Rottie from the US, saved enough on the shipping to pay for health insurance for that dog and not have had to spend the $10,000 on health issues.


Whos to say if I purchased my Rottie in the US that I wouldnt of had any issues? I know someone who purchased a Doberman in the US, great breeder all clearances...and this dog is a walking health problem


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

A1Malinois said:


> I dont care if we arent talking about GSD or Mals, it was an example I used
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You make these statements that show dogs don't have the working ability that you want... so obviously it was a bad example... there are plenty of goldens that have working ability and go in the breed ring. so to make that statement is just silly and not based in fact. 

you make these blanket statements about working ability and clearly have no knowledge regarding goldens and working ability .... it sounds like an excuse to me. I have seen it in other breeds a way of justifying going to breeders who have poor breeding practices... well I want a working dog I don't care what they look like... I hear that all the time... its an excuse... because anyone with knowledge knows that form follows function... and that a working dog must be structurally sound... 

I don't understand the point of your complaining about health issues when you already stated that you don't care about all the extra care that goes into a well bred puppy... it seems to actually prove our point... and the amount of money you spend has nothing to do with whether your breeder is or is not responsible... there are alot of irresponsible breeders charging a whole lot of money so that is indicative of nothing.... Perhaps you might want to consider going to a reputable breeder in the future... as you clearly have not had much luck with these breeders who just do clearances and nothing else but charge 800 bucks for their puppies....


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## CaseyKaylaBoone:) (Dec 18, 2011)

Alright, well unless people have an answer to the initial post I'm going to delete this thread because it's really going no where and the conversation has nothing to do with the initial post at this point. People disagree with others and there's no need for arguments and what not. Sometimes people just don't agree. Thank you to everyone who gave informative, direct answers to my question, unlike those who just felt the need to question my reasoning for posting it and blew it off. Anyways, your answers really helped me understand so thank you! Have a great day everyone! : )


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

A1Malinois said:


> Thats great that yours hasnt worked. Mine hasnt either because of his joint problems.


After everything you've been through, I truly cannot understand why you wouldn't be a huge proponent of health clearances and the breeders who are religious about them. It is a fact that breeding dogs with clearances reduces the chances of the hip and elbow problems.

"....multiple current studies (1, 4, 5) have all concluded that the heritability of ED (defined as UAP, FCP, or OCD) is moderate to high. This means that breeding selections can have a significant impact on the rate of ED in a breed. As referenced in an earlier question, studies (1) have shown that as the frequency of ED increases in a breed population, there is a corresponding percentage increase of dogs affected with more moderate to severe (Grades II and III) cases of ED (1)." (Orthopedic Foundation for Animals: Elbow Dysplasia)

"Example 1:

Examination of the OFA database reveals the following mating probability results for 13,151 breeding pairs of dogs with known elbow status:

Normal Elbows x Normal Elbows = 12.2% offspring affected with ED

Normal Elbows x Dysplastic Elbows = 26.1% - 31.3% offspring affected with ED

Dysplastic Elbows x Dysplastic Elbows = 41.5% offspring affected with ED

In this very large breeding study (primarily Labrador Retrievers, Golden Retrievers, Rottweilers, and German Shepherd Dogs), the rate of ED more than doubled when one parent was affected, and more than tripled when both parents were affected." (OFFA website)

How in the world would you brush off odds that were improved as much as these?????


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## BayBeams (Jan 3, 2010)

CaseyKaylaBoone:) said:


> Alright, well unless people have an answer to the initial post I'm going to delete this thread because it's really going no where and the conversation has nothing to do with the initial post at this point. People disagree with others and there's no need for arguments and what not. Sometimes people just don't agree. Thank you to everyone who gave informative, direct answers to my question, unlike those who just felt the need to question my reasoning for posting it and blew it off. Anyways, your answers really helped me understand so thank you! Have a great day everyone! : )


Well, Just as an FYI you are unable to "delete" a thread but you can ask the mod. to close it.


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## CaseyKaylaBoone:) (Dec 18, 2011)

BayBeams said:


> Well, Just as an FYI you are unable to "delete" a thread but you can ask the mod. to close it.


You're not? Bummer. Well can everyone just end it then please. It's silly to badger on when no one is ever going to find a common ground! I really don't want this to become a nasty thread like that. Thanks!


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## Visitador (Aug 12, 2011)

This thread has been hijacked all over the place. Maybe that has to do with the way the OP asked the question: "Are there any good breeders who sell good, healthy pups just for companionship and not for all the other stuff that I feel like jacks up the price?"

OP is assuming high price = all other stuff. I assume because of show, etc, etc.
Dog for companionship only = lower price.

As all the discussions have shown. It does not matter what the purpose of having the puppy is. A good breeder will incur high costs just because it cost a lot to have a good, healthy puppy. As the saying goes, you pay for what you get.


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## CaseyKaylaBoone:) (Dec 18, 2011)

Visitador said:


> This thread has been hijacked all over the place. Maybe that has to do with the way the OP asked the question: "Are there any good breeders who sell good, healthy pups just for companionship and not for all the other stuff that I feel like jacks up the price?"
> 
> OP is assuming high price = all other stuff. I assume because of show, etc, etc.
> Dog for companionship only = lower price.
> ...


The way the OP asked the question? I don't really understand what you mean by that..That was just my question, there isn't any other way to put it. I got great answer so that's all that matters. If people want to hijack it and argue that is their problem not mine. That's why I am asking people to quit posting unless it relates to the initial post.


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## My Big Kahuna (Dec 14, 2011)

You can unsubscribe from the thread so you don't get any more updates when people post on it


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## CaseyKaylaBoone:) (Dec 18, 2011)

My Big Kahuna said:


> You can unsubscribe from the thread so you don't get any more updates when people post on it


I don't get updates, I don't think..I just don't want to be the one to start a thread that gets nasty and everyone argues because that is not what this was meant for. If people want to discuss other things they should start their own thread, or private chat. That's all


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## My Big Kahuna (Dec 14, 2011)

Haha it's ok then  When you have so many passionate people with differing opinions it's gonna happen and I always read them to educate myself haha


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## CaseyKaylaBoone:) (Dec 18, 2011)

My Big Kahuna said:


> Haha it's ok then  When you have so many passionate people with differing opinions it's gonna happen and I always read them to educate myself haha


Yeah but I just feel it's unnecessary because in the end nobodies ever going to agree anyway, people just NEED to get their two cents into the argument and feel accomplished. That's how it seems to me anyway. And it seems like such a big deal to people here to not have threads like that, at least it was when I posted this thread, so I'd rather it not end up that way.


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## My Big Kahuna (Dec 14, 2011)

Eh then I would just let it die... Every time you post on it members are going to get an update and it will bring them back lol


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## Maddie'sMom2011 (Apr 26, 2011)

Vhuynh2 said:


> Please look up the numerous threads on this topic.. There really is no need to start another controversial thread on the same topic again.


Maybe you should have taken this advice.


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## Laurie (Sep 20, 2009)

To the OP...if you would like the thread closed, please let us know and one of the Mods will close it.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

nolefan said:


> After everything you've been through, I truly cannot understand why you wouldn't be a huge proponent of health clearances and the breeders who are religious about them. It is a fact that breeding dogs with clearances reduces the chances of the hip and elbow problems.
> 
> "....multiple current studies (1, 4, 5) have all concluded that the heritability of ED (defined as UAP, FCP, or OCD) is moderate to high. This means that breeding selections can have a significant impact on the rate of ED in a breed. As referenced in an earlier question, studies (1) have shown that as the frequency of ED increases in a breed population, there is a corresponding percentage increase of dogs affected with more moderate to severe (Grades II and III) cases of ED (1)." (Orthopedic Foundation for Animals: Elbow Dysplasia)
> 
> ...


I do think all breeders need to do clearances. I never said they shouldnt have to...


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## CleosMom (Sep 3, 2012)

CaseyKaylaBoone:) said:


> ?? did i miss something? ha ha


:wave:Casey, (re: the Petco gift card)

I was just reading about all the costs the breeders have. Very educational, I never would have thought. I guess I'm so excited to have a puppy sometime in January, I feel like the least I could do is drop off some puppy food. And I'm paying $2,000. Worth every cent. :bowl: However, some background, we paid more for our lab while at a fundraiser auction that supplied free margaritas and got in a bidding war over that darn puppy. My hubby saw it as his only chance for us/for me to ever have a dog once he was nestled in my neck. He had me at that cuddle. Best thing that ever happened to me. 

When I called the breeder for his papers after we brought him home, he asked "how much did he go for?" When I told him he said "ummm, he has a brother here!"  Just trying to lighten things up here. 

Good luck CKB with your puppy :wavey: See ya around the halls here :smooch:


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## SMBC (Jul 31, 2012)

Golden999 said:


> I don't think I've ever met a dog owner, even though I know some who could afford to do so, who would pay $5,000 for a veterinary surgical procedure. My guess is that if you asked most vets, most dog owners presented with that scenario decline the procedure. Obviously, that ratio would be a lot different on a forum like this of dog enthusiasts than in real life, though (I expect most people here who could afford it would pay it- I would if I could [though I can't]).
> 
> In that type of scenario, I think I'd level with the vet and say "The money just isn't there. What are our alternatives?" and work from there. Sometimes there are alternate procedures or courses of treatment. Sometimes a vet might offer to let you pay in installments to make it more affordable. One might be able to shop around and ask other vets what they charge to perform the initially recommended procedure there. Maybe some relatives or friends would offer a loan in an extreme case. There are lots of potential avenues there.
> 
> ...


I am one of those people=) Actually...I paid more! My dog, who now resides in doggy heaven, had a catastrophic adverse reaction to a medication and had to have emergency surgery. They didn't know what was wrong, prior to surgery, and to make a long story short surgery was around 20k. Then we had an extra 5 days of hospital stay, with plasma transfusions. Then we had 3 years of care, which included around 10 pills a day (which included some very expensive pills), a couple of hospital stays and some other necessities to keep him alive. Unfortunately, he passed away eventually because of liver failure due to the adverse reaction and medications, but we kept him alive for 3 more years than what was expected. According to the drug company, no dog on record has survived the catastrophic reaction.

My husband and I spent a lot of money on our dog, money we didn't exactly have. I had to take out extra student loans, our family was generous, and we lived very frugally in order to keep him alive. 

I am proud to be a dedicated doggy owner and currently, I am waiting to spend $1400 on a golden retriever puppy that is due into this world next week. My last dog was from an accidental breeding and he had several health issues prior to the adverse reaction, and I would pay double what we are paying for our new golden retriever puppy in order to better "guarantee" their health. If you don't get a healthy puppy, you're going to spend more money in the long run then you will up front. Take it from my experience, it's worth the cost up front in order to save yourself from the heartache, stress, and pain of having a puppy with potential health problems (which is not to say that dogs from reputable breeders are guaranteed to be 100% healthy, but I think it's a better chance)!

To the OP: Good luck on your search and it's worth the money!


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## booklady (Mar 3, 2009)

From the bottom of my heart, thank you to the responsible, caring breeders who go the extra mile. I know it's not for financial gain, but for love of the breed and love of their dogs.

In a perfect world, someday I'll be able to get a truly well-bred golden pup; but until there are no more goldens in rescue I won't be doing that. For the few of you who speak of a world without goldens because no one can afford one.....I don't see that any time soon, or ever for that matter. Every golden rescue I know is packed to the gills. All of the impulse buys of the cute puppy in box in front of the grocery store that had the gall to grow into an adult, the displastic byb purchases that they can't afford to fix, the mill dogs that wouldn't sell, the leftover byb pups that had become to old to sell. There are legitimate reasons to surrender a dog to rescue, but in a perfect world a majority of those wouldn't exist...even to the death of an owner where the breeder would take the dog back (the "real" ones will, every time).

If you can't afford a well-bred dog....rescue. There's no shortage, I'm sorry to say. And a reputable rescue will be there for you for the life of the dog, just as a quality breeder will. Yes, you will be asked to pay between $100 and $400.....but all of those displastic hips will have been repaired, all the medical issues will be diagnosed and either healed or a protocol set, the temperament will be assessed and they will be spayed or neutered. Not bad for the price, in fact a flat out loss for the rescue but they love the breed and the dogs too.

Yep. Hopefully someday I will get a well-bred golden puppy from a wonderful breeder like the ones here....but I don't don't think anyone should put me on a waiting list any time soon.


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## Lennap (Jul 9, 2010)

Golden999 said:


> I don't think I've ever met a dog owner, even though I know some who could afford to do so, who would pay $5,000 for a veterinary surgical procedure. My guess is that if you asked most vets, most dog owners presented with that scenario decline the procedure. Obviously, that ratio would be a lot different on a forum like this of dog enthusiasts than in real life, though (I expect most people here who could afford it would pay it- I would if I could [though I can't]).
> 
> In that type of scenario, I think I'd level with the vet and say "The money just isn't there. What are our alternatives?" and work from there. Sometimes there are alternate procedures or courses of treatment. Sometimes a vet might offer to let you pay in installments to make it more affordable. One might be able to shop around and ask other vets what they charge to perform the initially recommended procedure there. Maybe some relatives or friends would offer a loan in an extreme case. There are lots of potential avenues there.


 
I am happy to say that I have spent in excess of $5,000 for treatment of a pet on more than one occasion. When I bring an animal into my family, they become a member of the family - period end of story. 

I think it is very irresponsible for people to bring animals into their lives and not have a contingency for emergencies. If you can't pay for medical care, you can't afford a pet - it's really that simple.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

A1Malinois said:


> I would rather pay $800 for a dog whos parents have had clearances and have PROVEN their working ability vs a dog who costs me $1500 and parents have clearances and just a bunch of material ribbons.
> 
> Sorry, this is my opinion. I dont want show, I want a working dog which is what dogs were meant to do.


So you want dogs who are titled in working/sport venues instead of show? I can respect that. Originally you seemed to pooh-pooh the very idea of titles.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

A1Malinois said:


> That varies. I have 3 examples with my own dogs.


No, it doesn't. Individual dogs may have different health issues throughout their lives. I'm not talking about anecdotal examples. I'm talking about predicting puppies' lives, and anecdotes don't do that. Hard data does, and it says clearances cut risks. QED.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

CaseyKaylaBoone:) said:


> I don't get updates, I don't think..I just don't want to be the one to start a thread that gets nasty and everyone argues because that is not what this was meant for. If people want to discuss other things they should start their own thread, or private chat. That's all


Haha! Welcome to GRF. This is how we do it. You can have threads you start closed but not deleted, but anyway, this argument existed before your post, and it'll exist afterwards. You didn't start it, so don't feel too guilty.


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## az_melanie (Aug 5, 2012)

Casey you brought this on yourself. Did your momma ever teach you that you catch more flies with honey than vinegar? It's all in HOW you asks your question. You got your answer yet you keep coming back to post. Since you can't delete the post, just stop reading! You can't expect to come to a GR forum and not come across so many people who are very passionate about the breed! But at the end of the day, hopefully you've been educated on the cost and now know why the cost is what it is. And also if you are in southern California, you're gonna have to raise that budget to the $1500-2000 range !!!


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## Tennyson (Mar 26, 2011)

az_melanie said:


> Casey you brought this on yourself. Did your momma ever teach you that you catch more flies with honey than vinegar? It's all in HOW you asks your question. You got your answer yet you keep c


Are you loaded?


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## az_melanie (Aug 5, 2012)

See previous post ...


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## az_melanie (Aug 5, 2012)

Tennyson said:


> Are you loaded?


Loaded?! What do you mean?


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

Lennap said:


> I am happy to say that I have spent in excess of $5,000 for treatment of a pet on more than one occasion. When I bring an animal into my family, they become a member of the family - period end of story.
> 
> I think it is very irresponsible for people to bring animals into their lives and not have a contingency for emergencies. If you can't pay for medical care, you can't afford a pet - it's really that simple.


So, you're saying that people who can't afford to pay whatever crazy price some wacked out veterinarian might decide to charge for whatever health issues, however unlikely, might hypothetically occur, shouldn't be allowed to own a dog (On a side note, thank God it's a free country, and you don't get to decide who owns and doesn't owns dogs.)? And you start off by talking about requiring people to have at least in excess of $5,000 with no end in sight available to pay for such a procedure?

I'm pretty poor, because I have health problems that are cumulatively disabling, so I don't have five grand on hand, well, ever, but I don't think it's just we financially poor folks with health issues in that situation. The average American I don't think has $5,000 on hand at any given time. Heck, I don't think the average American even has a credit card with that type of limit. I know a guy who's upper middle class- he makes like 70 grand a year, and happened to call me while I was typing this post- I told him about the discussion and he says even he doesn't have 5 grand on hand or available in credit. Basically, what you're saying is, only rich people should own pets.

Now, maybe I'm misinterpreting what you're saying here. Maybe all you meant is that people should be able to figure out to pay for an annual veterinarian visit and rabies and distemper vaccines. That'd be a more reasonable position. But I don't think that's what you're saying.

We all love our dogs, but, yeah, I'm not going to feel that guilty if a vet tries to push a $10,000 bill on me and it turns out I don't make much more than that in a year and can't pay it. That's ridiculous. There is nothing that a vet should be charging 10k for. Nothing.

If push comes to shove, I'd talk about alternative procedures, look into what other vets charge, borrow money, see what I could do at home for my dog, or see if I could get a human doctor I know to attempt something himself for me and do the best he can (And if someone is going to jump in here and say that would be an illegal practice of veterinary medicine, I don't care, I'd do what it takes to save my dog and bet that if somehow if a one-time thing like that inexplicably came to someone in authority's intention, a jury probably wouldn't convict a guy with no other options trying to save his beloved pet, or someone trying to help out as a one time thing).

And, you know what, in the end, I love my dog, and I do everything that is in my power to make sure he's happy, health, and lives a good life. I sacrifice a ton for him, and gladly do it. But if he gets so sick that he needs $10,000 in treatment for something immediately, and none of the numerous other options I mentioned exploring panned out, then maybe that would mean it was his time. He's my favorite animal- heck, I feel closer to him than I think almost any person I know- and I'd do almost anything for him, but I can only do what is within my power to do. 

And I'd keep in mind that he'd never have been born if you people had your way anyway, so buyers like me would have made his entire life possible, even if we can't pay 10 grand to fix a problem that develops 80% through his lifespan and he missed out on that last 20%. Beats missing out on 100% of his life.

But I also think veterinarians should only be in that field if they love animals, and if they love animals, they shouldn't be charging 10 grand for anything life saving procedure and not be willing to work with someone who they know can't pay it to get the procedure or an alternate less expensive procedure (Maybe with slightly lower odds of success) done somehow. What a poor excuse for a vet who would watch a dog die in a situation like that. Not someone I'd want doing so much as administering a rabies shot to my dog- if I found out my vet did something like that to some person and his poor dog, I'd find a new vet just on principle.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

A1Malinois said:


> I know someone who sells pups for $800 parents have had all clearances. I also know someone who sells GSD/Mal mixes for $1200 with NO clearances (not that I agree with that)


If you have found someone who sells these dogs (what breed?) for $800, buy one. As to someone who sells mixes for $1200, what is your point?



> Whos to say if I purchased my Rottie in the US that I wouldnt of had any issues? I know someone who purchased a Doberman in the US, great breeder all clearances...and this dog is a walking health problem


My whole point was that if you purchased your Rottie from a US breeder you would not have had to pay so much for shipping the dog...money you could have used for insurance. 

Obviously you have had some bad experiences with the dogs you have purchased. In the dogs I have purchased from breeders, I have had much better luck although I have never added up the expenses for any of those dogs.

My BYB Heart Dog Dexy had allergies and elbow dysplasia. His parents had no clearances. He repaid me any money I put into him with his love.

My Selli whose parents had all four clearances is like a machine although being the crazy girl she is, we have spent a good deal of time in the vets office to remove foreign bodies from her feet.

My Dad's two Goldens, that I found for him, have been very healthy girls. 

And now there is Dugan who is only 11 weeks old, but Dog willing, will be just as healthy.

I know I have been lucky. Dugan's co-owner just lost her Golden 6 weeks ago who even though her parents had hip clearances had hip dysplasia and temperament problems. I hope my luck will carry over for her.

And back to the original question, Selli and my Dad's girls each cost $900 (the last was purchased in 2011).


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## az_melanie (Aug 5, 2012)

Golden 999-your friend who makes $70k a year that can't get more than a $5k Credit limit needs to learn to budget better and make better financial decisions !!! As for the expensive vet bills, why not get pet insurance to be sure if something happens to your dog, they are covered so you don't have to shell out $5-10k?


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## SMBC (Jul 31, 2012)

Just an FYI for people that may not know...

There is a credit card called Care Credit that you can use at most veterinarians. I discovered it when my dog had TPO surgeries and it was a great help us because they do offer payment plans, such as no interest for 6-12 months. 

I would highly suggest getting pet insurance and then you can also apply for a CareCredit credit card in case of emergencies!


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

az_melanie said:


> Golden 999-your friend who makes $70k a year that can't get more than a $5k Credit limit needs to learn to budget better and make better financial decisions !!!


I don't entirely disagree with you there, but I assume it probably has something to do with having things come up when he was not making that kind of money, or marrying a woman who had some debt. Still, it's a true story (Unless he's misleading me for some reason). A lot of people these days have less than perfect credit.



> As for the expensive vet bills, why not get pet insurance to be sure if something happens to your dog, they are covered so you don't have to shell out $5-10k?


I've looked into pet insurance in the past, and am willing to continue to look into it from time to time. But what I'd found is that generally pet insurance plans cost a lot of money every month, don't cover anything routine, and try to avoid paying out on technicalities when and if something serious _does_ happen. Also, they often require you to pay your vet upfront and then submit a claim, which doesn't do a lot of good if you vet is asking for a truly out of this world sum and you can't come up with it.

Based on the plans I've seen, buying the insurance each month might actually interfere with my ability to get my dog all the routine vaccinations, exams, heart worm preventatives, flea and tick medicines, food, treats, rawhide chews, etc. that he needs on a regular basis. It's actually better just to pay out of pocket in my type of scenario. I do pretty well for my dog, I think, all things considered- better than a lot of people I know who are significantly better off do. Because my dog is important and I sacrifice for him. 

But, no, I don't think I shouldn't be able to have a dog just because of my financial status. The ownership of a companion animal should be something that as many people as possible can pursue if it brings them happiness and they are willing to make the reasonable sacrifices that are within the realm of what's possible for them to provide reasonable adequate care. I don't think the inability to pay 10 grand on a dime should be a dis-qualifier for owning a pet, especially when one considers that these pets wouldn't even exist if not for owners like me. 

A chance at a decent life with the chance that something truly catastrophic some day might be beyond his owner's means is better than not having ever been born at all. And 9 times out of 10, I'll bet those dogs live lengthy lives within the average for their breed with that type of owner and a situation like the one described either doesn't occur, or occurs when the dog is so old that it's close to death anyhow.

And, remember, these are dogs we're talking about. We love them, but they're not people.


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## SMBC (Jul 31, 2012)

Golden999 said:


> And, remember, these are dogs we're talking about. We love them, but they're not people.


But they mean just as much to us as the people in our lives...and I would do anything for my animals, like I would do for my family...because, they are family.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

Lennap said:


> I am happy to say that I have spent in excess of $5,000 for treatment of a pet on more than one occasion. When I bring an animal into my family, they become a member of the family - period end of story.
> 
> I think it is very irresponsible for people to bring animals into their lives and not have a contingency for emergencies. If you can't pay for medical care, you can't afford a pet - it's really that simple.


I have to respectfully disagree. I know several people who work for vets and if an emergency came up where it would cost more then $1000 all at once, they wouldnt be able to afford it. Heck, if *I* needed $5,000 for myself to have a surgery I couldnt even afford that. I dont expect anyone to be able to drop thousands of dollars on a dog nor do I feel they are irresponsible for not wanting/having the money to spend. If you went by this, only really wealthy people making tons of money a year would be able to own dogs. Now, if someone got a dog and couldnt afford BASICS such as food, vaccines, neutering (though I dont believe in this but can afford it), small emergencies like hematoma repair, cut pad etc then they shouldnt own a dog. 



tippykayak said:


> So you want dogs who are titled in working/sport venues instead of show? I can respect that. Originally you seemed to pooh-pooh the very idea of titles.


As long as the dog has proven it can work thats all I ask. I have nothing against titles. I prefer breeders who breed for workability...not looks and how they do in the show ring. I guess in some breeds you can have both but in the breeds I prefer, theres no such thing. Its either showing...or working. 



tippykayak said:


> No, it doesn't. Individual dogs may have different health issues throughout their lives. I'm not talking about anecdotal examples. I'm talking about predicting puppies' lives, and anecdotes don't do that. Hard data does, and it says clearances cut risks. QED.


Well, clearances didnt cut risks for my Rottie


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

I equate owning a dog to having a kid. I'm not going to be able to leave the kid on the side of the road if I can't pay for medical care. I would feel EXTREMELY GUILTY if I decided to take on the responsibility of caring for another life only to have to put the dog down if I can't pay for a medical expense. They charge what they charge and it may or may not make sense to me but that's the money I will have to come up with. That is what comes with owning a dog, whether or not you agree with it. I am not going to hope and pray that a vet somewhere will cut me some slack. Maybe I'm a bit of a pessimist but I consider myself a realist. 

I paid more than $1200 for Molly. I have a good amount of money saved up and if something came up, I would be able to pay for it. I have enough in credit to cover things, and I have no debt. But, since I would prefer not to drain my savings or pay insane interest rates on my credit card in case of an emergency, I have pet insurance for Molly. It isn't about being wealthy or even CLOSE to it, it's about saving and planning and not just HOPING that life will cut you a break when you need it. You do have the draw the line somewhere when considering whether or not it is practical to take on the responsibility of a life depending on your financial situation. I find it ridiculous for someone to be OK with shortening their dogs' life by 20%. Now, why would you purchase a puppy knowing that someone else out there might be able to give him 100% vs your 80%????


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

Golden999 said:


> So, you're saying that people who can't afford to pay whatever crazy price some wacked out veterinarian might decide to charge for whatever health issues, however unlikely, might hypothetically occur, shouldn't be allowed to own a dog (On a side note, thank God it's a free country, and you don't get to decide who owns and doesn't owns dogs.)? And you start off by talking about requiring people to have at least in excess of $5,000 with no end in sight available to pay for such a procedure?
> 
> I'm pretty poor, because I have health problems that are cumulatively disabling, so I don't have five grand on hand, well, ever, but I don't think it's just we financially poor folks with health issues in that situation. The average American I don't think has $5,000 on hand at any given time. Heck, I don't think the average American even has a credit card with that type of limit. I know a guy who's upper middle class- he makes like 70 grand a year, and happened to call me while I was typing this post- I told him about the discussion and he says even he doesn't have 5 grand on hand or available in credit. Basically, what you're saying is, only rich people should own pets.
> 
> ...


She was basically saying if you dont have thousands of dollars to shell out on your dog then you shouldnt have one. Someone I know through someone spent $32000..yes...thirty two thousand on a dog with cancer that died anyway. I feel, this person was ripped off massively. There is NO reason why anything in the veterinary world needs to cost $32000. I would NEVER spend that on my dog...sorry. If I was using dollar bills to wipe every morning well maybe I would, but not right now when I am lucky ot make $12,000 a year



Selli-Belle said:


> If you have found someone who sells these dogs (what breed?) for $800, buy one. As to someone who sells mixes for $1200, what is your point?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The person I know sells her dogs for $800 are Belgians. Her sire/dam and two generations back have all their clearances. I dont want to buy one right now because I cant even afford the dog I have now so why bring another one in...


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

A1Malinois said:


> As long as the dog has proven it can work thats all I ask. I have nothing against titles.


What other than a title constitutes "proof?"



A1Malinois said:


> Well, clearances didnt cut risks for my Rottie


Well, yeah they did. Cutting risks isn't a 100% guarantee of perfect health. It's a cut risk. Would you have preferred your Rottie have been at double risks for twice as many health issues?

Plus, we're talking about Goldens. I don't know the risk stats for Rotties, so I have no idea what your $10K bought you in terms of risk reduction.


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## A1Malinois (Oct 28, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> What other than a title constitutes "proof?"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lets say I went to a farm because im looking for a great working Border Collie. If I saw the dog work for what I wanted it to do (herd my flocks) as long as the parents had clearances for the health risks for that breed I would be happy. 

As for my Rottie, I was using him as an example because the Golden we had growing up was healthy. I paid 5k for him after I flew him here and on top of that over 10k in vet bills for his various health issues such as HD, ED, heart issues and thyroid problem. None of the above killed him though, he was taken away from Hemangio.


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

Lennap said:


> I am happy to say that I have spent in excess of $5,000 for treatment of a pet on more than one occasion. When I bring an animal into my family, they become a member of the family - period end of story.
> 
> I think it is very irresponsible for people to bring animals into their lives and not have a contingency for emergencies. If you can't pay for medical care, you can't afford a pet - it's really that simple.


I'll be honest, it would be tough for me to come up with $2000 to pay a vet bill, but that does not disqualify me from being a responsible,loving and caring dog owner. I have two dogs that would be dead if I had not brought them into my life, would that have been a better option than living happily with someone who 'may not' be able to afford a vet bill? Should I have let them die, because I could not afford a $5000 surgery, IF they should ever need it?


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

SMBC said:


> But they mean just as much to us as the people in our lives...and I would do anything for my animals, like I would do for my family...because, they are family.


That's basically how I feel, though I was raised not to believe that way. My mother and I used to argue when I was a child, because she thought I treated my childhood pet too much like a brother. I kind of think of my current dog as almost a surrogate son, in some ways. He's a very meaningful part of my life. I do think there is a difference between a human and a dog in a greater abstract ethical sense, but emotionally, I connect with dogs as well or better than humans in a lot of cases.

So, I understand. But if a situation arose were I literally didn't have the money a vet wanted for some sort of extremely expensive procedure, I wouldn't really view that as my fault. It is what it is, and I'd do the best I could to figure something out to help my dog any way I could. If I failed despite giving it my best, it'd be tragic, but there being a small hypothetical possibility of something like that is not a good enough reason not to own a dog in the first place, at least not for me.



Vhuynh2 said:


> I equate owning a dog to having a kid. I'm not going to be able to leave the kid on the side of the road if I can't pay for medical care.


I don't equate owning a dog to having a kid, but I happen to believe that poor and middle class people should be allowed to have children as well as pets.  I consider a lack of adequate health care for some poor children the fault of greedy hospitals and physicians, and a systematic problem with health care in America, not the fault of the parents who brought them into the world and cared for them as best they could.

That's right, I don't think poor people should be prevented from breeding. People who think poor people shouldn't breed are what's known as fascists, by definition. Not a case of me exaggerating the situation out of proportion by making a ridiculous Hitler comparison, which most Internet arguments turn into. That seriously is one of things fascists believe- that poor folks and others they consider inferior shouldn't breed. It's an ugly belief. Not accusing anyone here of holding that belief, just saying think it through before anyone decides that's how they feel if they're on the verge of coming to that conclusion.

As I would if I had a child, I'd do everything in my power to ensure my dog got health care he needed. But I wouldn't not have a child because I'm poor were I married and my wife and I wanted to start a family, and neither will I not have a dog because I'm poor.



A1Malinois said:


> She was basically saying if you dont have thousands of dollars to shell out on your dog then you shouldnt have one. Someone I know through someone spent $32000..yes...thirty two thousand on a dog with cancer that died anyway. I feel, this person was ripped off massively. There is NO reason why anything in the veterinary world needs to cost $32000. I would NEVER spend that on my dog...sorry. If I was using dollar bills to wipe every morning well maybe I would, but not right now when I am lucky ot make $12,000 a year


Thank you.


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

az_melanie said:


> Golden 999-your friend who makes $70k a year that can't get more than a $5k Credit limit needs to learn to budget better and make better financial decisions !!! As for the expensive vet bills, why not get pet insurance to be sure if something happens to your dog, they are covered so you don't have to shell out $5-10k?


I know I have +$5,000 on hand in my pet emergency fund for my furrbutts since I chose to save several hundred each month for mine instead of buying pet health insurance. Once you pay the premiums you will never see your money again in my mind by saving it I can use it as needed. My credit cards each have over +$5,000 limits which I never get even close too and I pay off every month. My only debt is my mortage which I will have paid off hopefully in the next 4 years and I am only 27. And not I don't make $70k/year. My furrbutts get before I do. I am a cheapskate when it comes to me. Coupons are my BFF.


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## BayBeams (Jan 3, 2010)

I decided to change my thought and not add to this discussion.


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## Max's Dad (Apr 23, 2012)

Yes, this thread is way off track . . .I think it was originally about why Golden's cost $1200+.


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## AKGOLD (Nov 9, 2010)

A1Malinois said:


> Lets say I went to a farm because im looking for a great working Border Collie. If I saw the dog work for what I wanted it to do (herd my flocks) as long as the parents had clearances for the health risks for that breed I would be happy.



This makes sense, it is the same as showing up on a hunting location with a dog that hunts all fall and picks up 500+ birds a year. The dog may not have the hunt test or field trial title but it is a capable working dog. Although, I will have many more questions regarding the workability outside of 50yd retrievers and temperament away from the hunting grounds. I would still want to see the dogs clearances and the pedigree of the dog to know more of its history. The biggest issue aside from that is I'm only getting a snapshot of how a dog worked at that Exact moment, with the titles I have proof of that dog's success repeatedly to attain the title over time. The working dog that is at a hunting lodge, has no backing on its performance aside from that of the owner.

"I'm sorry this is going to irritate a few people, but not all people are reputable or trustworthy. I may see the success that my dog is showing but the proof is when it goes out and performs in a test or when others are the ones stating they can see the change in the performance."



A1Malinois said:


> As for my Rottie, I was using him as an example because the Golden we had growing up was healthy. I paid 5k for him after I flew him here and on top of that over 10k in vet bills for his various health issues such as HD, ED, heart issues and thyroid problem. None of the above killed him though, he was taken away from Hemangio.


If you factor vet bills into what you pay for a dog then you are trying to compare a basketball to a grape, so far apart that an apple and orange comparison is not justifiable. They have nothing in common. That would be similar to including the training costs, travel costs, and competition costs in the "purchase price" of a dog. The decision to select a pup from a reputable breeder limits our chances of health problems as stated by others in previous posts, but in no way guarantees that the dog will be health issue free. But I'd rather know that I put forth the effort to find a pup that has the greatest chance of success in life because the clearances were in place and limited the pup's exposure to medical issues.


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

BayBeams said:


> I decided to change my thought and not add to this discussion.


:hide:

Are you thinking :hijacked:, :moreek:, :bricks1:, :help!:, :slamdoor:, fftopic:, :gotme:, :crazy:, :banghead:, or :uhoh:


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## CaseyKaylaBoone:) (Dec 18, 2011)

Maddie'sMom2011 said:


> Maybe you should have taken this advice.


Why? I got great answers to my questions. Why should I have to pick through all the attacking, insulting, bs comments in other posts when I can post here and get straight forward answers? My only thing is the posts were going way off track. I'm saying let's just end this thread to keep that from happening. A comment like yours in just childish and unnecessary. Cracks me up the way some people talk to each other on here.


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## CaseyKaylaBoone:) (Dec 18, 2011)

CaseyKaylaBoone:) said:


> Why? I got great answers to my questions. Why should I have to pick through all the attacking, insulting, bs comments in other posts when I can post here and get straight forward answers? My only thing is the posts were going way off track. I'm saying let's just end this thread to keep that from happening. A comment like yours in just childish and unnecessary. Cracks me up the way some people talk to each other on here.


Comments like THAT are ones that will stir up arguments. The ones that just shouldn't have been said in the first place.


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## CaseyKaylaBoone:) (Dec 18, 2011)

az_melanie said:


> Casey you brought this on yourself. Did your momma ever teach you that you catch more flies with honey than vinegar? It's all in HOW you asks your question. You got your answer yet you keep coming back to post. Since you can't delete the post, just stop reading! You can't expect to come to a GR forum and not come across so many people who are very passionate about the breed! But at the end of the day, hopefully you've been educated on the cost and now know why the cost is what it is. And also if you are in southern California, you're gonna have to raise that budget to the $1500-2000 range !!!


Oh lord. I'm posting in hopes that people will KEEP from arguing back and forth on this thread. Why do you feel the need to even post that? That's going to start unnecessary drama don't you think? Please just mind your own business and not what I do. I have been very educated on the cost because of this thread and have said that several times. I won't spend over $1500 on a golden. If EVERY reputable breeder in SoCal charges over that, I'll wait. Or I'll go to NorCal or Arizona. Please don't tell me what I'M gonna have to do


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## Rob's GRs (Feb 25, 2007)

Time to put this thread to rest.


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