# Do I need to be worried?



## Nicole74 (May 30, 2009)

My lovely Bailey who has been so sweet is now showing some discomfort towards my 6 year old. Just this weekend she has growled at her and now she is showing her teeth when my daughter pets Bailey when she is sitting on the ground. 

Please tell me how I should handle this.  I am letting my daughter hand feed her meals kibble by kibble, I'm sitting right next to them. I'm also letting Madison give some treats to her as well.


I realize that Bailey see's herself above Madison. What else can I do to establish the pack order. This is mainly Madison's dog. I have told Madison and showed her pictures on what damage dogs can do and that we need to respect them. 

Do I need to consult a behavior trainer?


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## Allan's Girl (Apr 16, 2009)

well, it seems strange that Bailey is just now acting out towards your daughter. Has something happened between them to change the dymanics? I know kids will be kids. My daughter used to cut off our dogs whiskers and other strange thing when we weren't looking. Is it possible that this is the case? I would talk to a trainer about the issue though. Otherwise it's gonna end up with Bailey having to find a new home. Nip this one in the bud now.


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## Nicole74 (May 30, 2009)

There is no way I am going to give this girl up. I need to find a way to work it out. 

It has to be a part of the pecking order in our house. This just started this weekend. Bailey just jumped up on my bed where my two youngest girls were playing a video game. Madison pet her and she growled at her again. Ugh! I went in there, got Bailey out and shut the door. When I approached Bailey she was licking her lips. 

When it started this weekend, I had other children over. Yes, they were crazy loud. They were bothering Bailey and I made them stop. Madison had grabbed Bailey by the neck and she didn't like it. Ever since then it's been downhill. I've been keeping a close eye on Bailey and it seems like Bailey is the one who is going near Madison.

I do realize it is my fault for the kids bothering Bailey in the first place. I had a migraine headache and wasn't watching them as well as I should of.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I don't have any experience in this area since I don't have children, but you could try getting some extra special treats that Bailey can only get from Madison. Something really high value like roast. 

Another way you could try it is Bailey gets the treat from you, but only while Madison is petting her. Make Bailey associate great things from Madison being around. 

If she is reacting to the way Madison grabbed her then it isn't really a pack order issue, it's more of a fear reaction. You want her to think of such great things when she thinks of Madison that she forgets all about the bad experience.

Again, I don't have children, so these are just some ideas that popped into my head. I've never actually put them into practice for this specific problem, but they are similar to what I would do in other situations.


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## Nicole74 (May 30, 2009)

What I don't get is that Bailey is seeking Madison out. Madison has been nothing but nice to her since I've talked to her. I know I will get through this. I'm assuming Madison has some fear and Bailey is picking it up. Madison was dropping some of the kibble when she was feeding her. Bailey likes taking it out of our hands and does it very nicely.

I hope this weekend hasn't ruined Bailey. I feel super bad for not being on top of things. I do have high value treats in the freezer, I will work on it tomorrow.

Ugh, I feel awful for letting this happen.


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## Allan's Girl (Apr 16, 2009)

I am sure it is a workable situation. It's just a matter of time and the right method. It sounds like Bailey was overwhelmed and is now frightened. If Madison has been feeding Bailey kibble, Bailey will seek her out to see if she has more. It would be nice if someone with more experience in this would chime in here.


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## Bogey's Mom (Dec 23, 2008)

Not to downplay the situation at all, but at that age sometimes they go through some growing pains. Bogey would do some REALLY odd things at 5-7 months. He even had two accidents in the house after months of being fine. You are smart to educate your daughter since she understands more than the puppy does. I would continue to watch them carefully and make sure they are treating each other with respect - I hope it's something she will just outgrow. Sometimes they do push the limits.


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## Allan's Girl (Apr 16, 2009)

Here is another thought. I would keep Bailey close to me. Leash her and tether her to you if necessary. This way she is always with and you can monitor all her interactions with the children. You'll be there to help calm her if she gets nervous. I am not an expert though. I have had some dog/kid related issues but have never dealt with an aggression problem before. I just know kids can sometimes be mean to animals when the parents aren't looking.


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## Oaklys Dad (Dec 28, 2005)

That is about the same age that I had to hand feed Oakly because he was getting food aggressive. In my mind you are doing the right thing by hand feeding. You just need to be careful and both you and your daughter know that the growls are a warning and should be heeded.


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## kira (Jan 13, 2009)

I don't have much advice that other wise posters haven't offered, but I just wanted to let you know that I really don't think you have done anything wrong and although I know it's difficult I don't want you to feel like this is your fault or that your dog is "ruined" or anything like that. Those were all thoughts that went through my head when my perfect sweet Murphy started showing some serious resource guarding with the other puppies in his kindergarten class.

I know for me it is sometimes hard to remember that although Murphy acts and looks like a grown up dog in many ways, he is really still very young and in fact... a teenager! I have to remember that my parents were pretty **** near perfect and I still rebelled and was an absolute terror as a teenager. There are bound to be bumps along the road. 

From all of your posts that I have read I think you are doing a great job with Bailey. I know it is difficult with your puppy and your child involved, but try to take a deep breath and relax. I am a strong believer that our dogs can really sense and feed off of our emotions and body language. If there is one thing that I learned from my old dog, who was dog aggressive in most situations, it is that if I was nervous and EXPECTING something to happen, it most certainly would. I had the best results when I just relaxed and went with it and tried to project calm and comfortable (always ready to act if needed of course).


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## Nicole74 (May 30, 2009)

I don't understand??? Bailey is sleeping next to Madison on my bed. I contacted a behavior specialist by email to get her prices. I'd like to try and solve it on my own if possible. It has been my fault, I'm full of anxiety this past week and I suffer from severe chronic pain. I've had a horrible week and my emotions are all over the place due to the pain being so bad and uncontrolled. I wasn't watching the kids that night as close as I should of been and I hope they didn't do something to her while I wasn't watching. Bailey was in her kennel when Madison grabbed her by the neck. She was trying to pull her out.

I'm thinking the kids should only being giving Bailey treats and playing fun games with her. They like to give her commands also and I'm thinking they should lay off the commands for a while.


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## Allan's Girl (Apr 16, 2009)

Madison trying to pull her out of the crate may have been the breaking point. Her crate is supposed to be her safe haven and if someone threatened her there she feels she has no safe place to go and must resort to other methods of keeping herself safe. I agree the children should not be giving commands. The kids should only have contact with bailey while under supervision.


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## Finn's Fan (Dec 22, 2007)

You may want to institute a "you may not touch or talk to the dog when she's in her crate" command for the children. A dog needs a safe place to get away from the loudness and occasional rudeness of children. Trying to pull her out of the crate by her neck certainly could be construed as aggressive by Bailey. Nip the kids' behavior just as much as nip the puppy's behavior, and I'm sure it will all work out fine.


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## laprincessa (Mar 24, 2008)

Have you asked Madison what happened? I don't mean accuse her of anything, just ask if Bailey might have been hurt or scared in some way. 
Ditto on what everyone else said.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

_* I went in there, got Bailey out and shut the door. When I approached Bailey she was licking her lips. *_

Lip licking is a classic calming signal in dogs. Sounds like for some unknown reason, Bailey now has some anxiety where the girls are concerned. IMO, you should involve the trainer --- so long as it's someone experienced in behavior problems (vs. basic training) and who does NOT use compulsion-based methods or insist that simply fixing the "pecking order" will address the problem.

Behavior mod stuff can be tricky and it's always harder when you're emotionally involved. Rather than have to go it alone, a skilled 3rd party can be very helpful. It's okay that you don't know how to fix this yourself - that's what help is for!

In the meantime, I'd suggest zero unsupervised time and a house rule that the dog is left ALONE when in her crate -- even if it means you have to set up an x-pen around the outside of the crate to keep the kids away.

There are also some great books about raising puppies and kids together. Check out www.dogwise.com for a list.

Hang in there! Keep us posted.


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## Nicole74 (May 30, 2009)

> Sounds like for some unknown reason, Bailey now has some anxiety where the girls are concerned.


The girls were very loud and over excited last Friday night with their friends. This is how it all started. Bailey didn't like that Madison tried to take her out of the kennel by the neck. Bailey had enough. I feel awful for it happening. 

Hopefully Bailey will forget about all of it soon. Bailey does show anxiety from time to time, she always has since the day I brought her home. It's easy to calm her down.

I'm not going to let Bailey on the furniture or bed until we get this straightened out. I will save part of a meal for when Madison gets home and have her hand feed kibble by kibble. I will also only let the kids play fun games with Bailey.

Bailey is young and I hope this is something she gets over. The girls are young and they DO get very loud at times, especially when they are excited with friends over. I will make sure they are loud outside or downstairs.


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## Nicole74 (May 30, 2009)

> There are also some great books about raising puppies and kids together.


Just ordered a book from amazon.com. I just bought Raising Puppies & Kids Together: A Guide for Parents for .24. You can't go wrong buying a used book at that price.


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## Willow52 (Aug 14, 2009)

It sounds like you're on top of things with this. It's hard with kids, my 4 y.o. granddaughter lives here and sometimes wants to boss Hank. We adults understand the limits but they don't. Pulling Bailey out of her crate is an example. As someone mentioned up thread, make Bailey's crate off limits to kids. I don't allow DGD to bother Hank if he's sleeping or eating. Hard to do when there's a lot going on but try to keep an extra ear out when kids are over. I know rules are sometimes forgotten when friends are around. I have to watch DGD's little friend, she likes to kick Hank. I keep him with me when she's over.


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## Nicole74 (May 30, 2009)

Whoa! I don't know what happened, but Bailey has decided that she doesn't like Madison at all. She growled at her while they were in the kitchen together. Madison was ignoring her. 

I then got some food with a little bacon dripping and had Madison feed it to her. Bailey is now in her kennel and will remain in there until this is straightened out.


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## Willow52 (Aug 14, 2009)

This is probably a dumb question but, are you sure Bailey is actually growling at Madison? My Maggie used to "talk" when people would come over trying to get their attention. They thought she was growling.


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## Nicole74 (May 30, 2009)

Willow52 said:


> This is probably a dumb question but, are you sure Bailey is actually growling at Madison? My Maggie used to "talk" when people would come over trying to get their attention. They thought she was growling.


Oh, you bet! Showing teeth and everything. I have an appointment with the vets office tomorrow. He is also a behavior specialist. Bailey snapped at Madison this morning.


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## rappwizard (May 27, 2009)

Nicole74--I agree with you that I think you are dealing with a "pack" issue; I know some of the advice you are getting seems to indicate otherwise, but IMHO, I believe Bailey is looking at Madison as someone who should not be above him in your "family pack."

For example, you stated that you later noticed Bailey and Madison sleeping together--who invited Bailey up on Madison's bed to sleep with her? Madison? Or did Bailey just decide to jump up and sleep with Madison? If he just decided to jump up and sleep with Madison, well, he's deciding--not Madison--or you for that matter. And you're supposed to be Alpha Bitch.

When Madison ignored Bailey he growled at her--could be one of those "woo woos" that goldens do, but if it was a true growl, well, he's trying to boss Madison around.

Some have given you advice that Madison should not give Bailey commands--well, I don't know what part of the country you live in, and I know you're seeking out a behaviorist, but it might be worth your while to check out a weekly obedience class that you, Madison and Bailey can attend together--preferably a class offered thru or recommended by one of the all-breed or golden retriever clubs. 

I agree with FlyingQ--Bailey, during the first incident you described, exhibited classic signs of stress (the lip licking) so he doesn't like this anymore than you or Madison does--he wants (NEEDS) you to be the strong leader to set up the proper pecking order--and to also, like you're properly identifying, control Madison, and her friends too. You have excellent instincts (IMHO).

But just from the little things you've said (with Bailey and Madison being on the same level--on the ground, or on the bed when he growled, I believe?) shows me that Bailey doesn't respect Madison. And even though she's a child, she does need to be respected. Like you said, he's her dog--and she needs to show good leadership over him. Can Bailey and Madison take nice walks together? Does he pull her from place to place? If he's her dog, he should be learning to walk by her side as her follower--if he does, great! And if not, that's something that can be worked on, but with supervision.

Let the crate incident go--you're taking efforts to correct it; to dwell on it will make you, as others have stated, a nervous, weak leader, and Bailey is going to pick up on it, and it won't help your daughter Madison. Bailey's not going to know that you're still thinking about the crate--just that the pack leader is not taking charge--so he'll take care of himself, especially if he doesn't fully respect Madison (IMHO). Don't feel bad, I've been there too--I had a strong-willed dog who didn't growl, but boy, he thought I paid the mortgage for his use of the house! You'll get through it. Keep us posted.


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## inge (Sep 20, 2009)

I can't offer you any advice (my pup is only 5 days old, so no experience at all...), but it does sound like you really think this through and are on top of what is happening! I still have that picture of Madison and Bailey in the snow in my head, where they looked like they were firm friends. I'm sure that everything will work out fine and they'll be vast friends again. Just follow your instincts!


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## Nicole74 (May 30, 2009)

Madison is writing a book on how dogs need to be treated and what to do if a puppy growls or shows their teeth. I'm sure this has scared Madison. I'm having talks with all three of my children and showing them pictures of dog bites to children. Hopefully the vet will give me a good place to take Bailey for further training. I will take all three of my children with me. Bailey does very well with obedience at home and knows all of the basics very well, but I've been her main teacher with this.

I pray this will work out. I hope this is just a stage and it is something she will grow out of. I've thought about buying a muzzle if it gets any worse. Right now Bailey is confined in her kennel. I won't take her out with the kids home.


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## LuckyPup (Sep 9, 2009)

Nicole,

I am sorry to hear about your dilemma. It sounds rather frustrating. It sounds like you are on top of it.

I hope everything goes well at the vet today and there is a solution to the problem.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

I think you will need to see a behaviorist who can visit your home and see the interactions between the dog and the kids. 

You can find a behaviorist at http://www.iaabc.org/suchen/ (The international association of animal behavior consultants).

By the way, how old are the kids?


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## Nicole74 (May 30, 2009)

The kids are 6, 8 and 15. The receptionist says the vet is also a behavior specialist. I have an appointment tomorrow at 11am. Thank you for the website, but there is no one signed up that lives with in 50 miles from me. I did email a behavior specialist last night who lives 45 minutes away, but I haven't had a reply from her.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

And Madison, the one who is being growled and snapped at, is how old?

I would also find out the vets credentials. Is he a certified veterinary behaviorist (sort of like a human psychiatrist)?

You may have to travel, or rather have the behaviorist travel for more than 50 miles to see someone really qualified to deal with this issue. I think the home visit is essential in this situation since dogs act quite differently when they are in their own space than in a vets office. But I do believe a vet visit is also essential to make sure Bailey is feeling O.K. and not experiencing any pain.


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## Nicole74 (May 30, 2009)

Madison is the youngest at 6 years old. I believe the receptionist said he was a certified behaviorist, but I'm not 100% sure. I will ask tomorrow. I'm getting a full exam on Bailey too, just to make sure there is no ear infection/fever or any other issues.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

Sounds good. You are lucky to have that vet in your area.


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## Maya's Mom (Apr 13, 2009)

I'm so sorry to hear about this. It sounds very stressful. I have enjoyed watching Bailey grow through your threads. She sounds like a great dog and I think that this issue can be resolved, especially since you are being so proactive about dealing with it early. I suffer from chronic pain as well (RSD, also called CRPS) and understand that when the pain is bad it is hard to even think straight, let alone carefully supervise several kids and a puppy. We just have to do the best we can. Try not to be too hard on yourself. These things happen.


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## Nicole74 (May 30, 2009)

I'm having a behaviorist come out to the house. She will spend 2-3 hours evaluating Bailey and give us ways to deal with it. Once I have her come out the vet is going to put Bailey on a natural anti-anxeity medication, he doesn't want to start her on the medications until she is evaluated. She has some general anxeity issues and needs a little help. My mom is coming over tomorrow to help me clean. I can't do the cleaning by myself with due to the pain.


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