# Weight of Performance Dogs



## AmberSunrise

I like my dogs on the lean, but not skinny side. I feel they need a bit extra to be well muscled. I see some dogs who are very thin, they work well but do not have nice muscles or coat. 

I guess you could say I love the lean, powerful look


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## K9-Design

I agree with the both of you. I think in field and agility it especially important to be slightly underweight but fed a lot, if that makes sense. Obedience as long as the dog is still driving for food I don't think it makes as big a difference. If the field or agility dog is being starved (fed little food) and underweight than that is just starving the dog. They need to be slightly underweight to reduce risk of injury yet consuming a normal amount of food....that says they are fit and burning a lot of calories. Muscular, athletic, cardio, all that. I see many agility dogs (AND SHOW DOGS) who are underweight but NOT fit. They are fed a pittance and not exercised except to train, which really in the scheme of things, a few laps around the agility course is not exercise.


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## hotel4dogs

since I'm at work and bored I will pick a bone here....performance dogs = field dogs. (or herding, depending on your breed, but I digress). Obedience, agility, and tracking are considered companion sports, not performance sports (per AKC).
I think performance dogs should be kept on the lower end of normal, but what weight they carry should be good hard muscle, as Anney said.
The companion sport dogs don't have nearly the same physical demands put on them, and it's probably less important. The closest would be agility, where extra weight would add extra risk for injuries IMO. But by extra weight I mean fat, not more muscle. More muscle should not increase injury risk.


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## Loisiana

oh I know the difference between performance sports and companion sports, but I still usually hear those dogs competing in companion sports being referred to as performance dogs, so that's what I usually say. Because calling them a "companion dog" makes it sound more like you're referring to a strictly pet dog, and companion sport dog is too wordy for my liking.


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## Megora

I have nothing to add other than comment that I find it really difficult to understand "where" your dog should be as far as weight for training in obedience when there are so many different types of goldens running around the obedience ring. And different bone structure on all of them.


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## Loisiana

Conner and Flip are fed the same amount of food despite there being a 20-25 pound difference between the two. I was worried about weight gain after Flip's neuter, but if anything he's lost a pound or two. Annabel, who is between the two boys, can't keep the weight off no matter how little I feed her. I had her thyroid checked thinking surely something was going on there but she came back normal.


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## hotel4dogs

I know you know the difference, like I said, I'm bored so I was nit-picking. Although I do have to quietly chuckle when people with obedience dogs talk about feeding them "performance foods" because the dogs are "performance dogs" and the dogs are hugely overweight....I mean really, walking isn't even aerobic exercise for a golden....




Loisiana said:


> oh I know the difference between performance sports and companion sports, but I still usually hear those dogs competing in companion sports being referred to as performance dogs, so that's what I usually say. Because calling them a "companion dog" makes it sound more like you're referring to a strictly pet dog, and companion sport dog is too wordy for my liking.


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## hollyk

When we go to the Vets they usually say you could put a pound or two on her. So, I figure that is about right.
I had to increase her intake at the end summer she was getting too skinny. Today, I noticed that she seems to have gained a bit of weight back, so I think I will cut back a little. 
I always seem to be adjusting the amount slightly.


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## Titan1

I think any dog needs to be on the thin side if you plan to jump them. Whatever you want to technically call the sport.


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## MarieP

"Normal" dog people tell me that Riot is skinny, but my vet has told me multiple times that he is at a great weight. The orthopedic vet I went to for his x-rays also said he is in perfect shape. I think, like Anney says, that the dogs should be eating a bunch but staying a little on the lighter side. Riot eats almost 4 cups a day (a lot for his 60#). I have cut back a little now that he has stopped really growing, just to keep his weight steady. 

If you are looking for more scientific information, check out this website Scientific Publications

There are various studies that looked at weight as a variable. If you view the abstracts, you may be able to link to the full article. If not, googlescholar has some of the titles for free. Some interesting reading, and part of the reason I have been slowly cutting Riot's food back.


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## Stretchdrive

I keep all my dogs thin, even my 11 1/2 year old man dog. I figure it is best for them to be at a healthy weight no matter what they are doing, even if it is just laying around because they are too creeky to do much else. I am concerned with muscle mass in my working dogs, and don't want them to get too soft, so I keep an eye on that as well.


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## gabbys mom

Ozzie is still major hunting - so I think I make both the show dog group and the agility group unhappy. He's a big boned dog- and the show ppl think he needs weight. The agility ppl would take a pound or two off of him. Though I will say he is fairly fit as he bikes 3 miles with me 4-5x a week. Basically, I keep him where he has a waist and I can easily feel but not see ribs.


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## Loisiana

Oh I definately want to keep him on the lean side, it's just the little bit of difference between right where he couldn't lose any more weight without being considered "too thin" and just a teeny bit more added on so he's not quite so scrawny looking. I guess he's not any thinner than Conner is in proportion to their heights, Conner just has a real thick coat that you don't realize he's thin until you put your hands on him. It's so much more noticeable on Flip since, although he has really nice feathering, there isn't so much coat there on his body.


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## Megora

Stretchdrive said:


> I keep all my dogs thin, even my 11 1/2 year old man dog. I figure it is best for them to be at a healthy weight no matter what they are doing, even if it is just laying around because they are too creeky to do much else. I am concerned with muscle mass in my working dogs, *and don't want them to get too soft,* so I keep an eye on that as well.


That's part of where I'm confused...? 

I went walking with my guy out in the rain today (MISERABLE WEATHER HERE), and with him all wet and moving out at a trot - he doesn't look soft at all. 

And looking at him, he's a very compact golden. He reminds me a lot of our Sammy who was an inch shorter and about 10 lbs lighter. His shape is very similar.

But I know his weight is at the higher end for his size.


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## AmberSunrise

Loisiana said:


> Conner and Flip are fed the same amount of food despite there being a 20-25 pound difference between the two. I was worried about weight gain after Flip's neuter, but if anything he's lost a pound or two. Annabel, who is between the two boys, can't keep the weight off no matter how little I feed her. I had her thyroid checked thinking surely something was going on there but she came back normal.


My Faelan gets at least twice as much food as either Casey or Towhee. Casey is hypothyroid while Towhee is well within the normal range. Before Casey was neutered (at about 8 years) his weight was not an issue at all - he ate about what Faelan eats now and was a trim 57 -59 pounds, but after about 6 months post neuter he started packing on the pounds. The vet increased his thyroid dosage and I cut back on his food and he is almost to a good weight again. His thyroid lab results had not changed but the lack of sexual hormones demanded a need for additional thyroid meds to maintain a good weight & coat, his lab results now point towards him being hyperthyroid but everything else is good (coat, weight control, heart, skin etc). My vet did work with an endocrinologist who knows goldens while we were tweaking Casey's meds.


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## AmbikaGR

I too think it is in the best interest of the DOG to keep them on the "lighter" side. But to me this does not mean "skinny". Whether they are a performance, show or companion (either interpretation) it is best for them. Lucy is now 11 and retired as my best "companion". Through out her competitive years she weighted between 55 and 57 pounds - other then when pregnant - and last week at the vet she weighed in at 55.3 lbs. :dblthumb2


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## Stretchdrive

My best way to explain it is I keep my dogs in the condition I wish I was in! Nobody enjoys being too fat or too thin! I just wish it was easier for me to control MY weight!!


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## GoldenSail

Scout is pretty skinny and I have tried to put a pound or two on her with no success. I was even feeding her satin balls for almost two months straight with no results. She just eats what she wants and will leave the rest. From a conformation stand-point I worry about how scrawny she is, but from a field dog stand-point I think she fine and very athletic. Really, dogs live longer when trim.


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## sammydog

I like my dogs on the thin side, but fit! This would be my preference no matter what we did, I just think it is healthier!

I also generally consider "performance events" most venues outside of conformation. I think that is common terminology used, I don't think I have heard the term "companion events" used. Performance is also the term used by the GRCA: GRNews Performance Issue, the breakdown of the categories for OD/OS and VC/VCX, or the Triathalon Award.


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## Maxs Mom

My dogs are on the thin side and most think they are annorexic. Belle lost close to 30# when we started agility training. Seriously. Teddi's surgeon tells us to keep her as close to 60# as we can. So now we have skinny dogs. My vet has told me to feed more. LOL Not that they are too too skinny, but they need more. 

Belle weighs 85#, you can see her spin, she has a definite waist, and you can feel ribs. 

Teddi is a "bit" heavy at 65# we are trying to just get a couple off her. 

Gabby and Quinn are about 53 - 55 pounds. Both are fit and ready to run.

The average person is used to seeing overweight dogs so they think my dogs are dying of starvation. I too call pretty much everything but conformation "performance".


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## hotel4dogs

No one knows what lurks in the mind of AKC and why they chose to label it the way they did....to me any event in which a dog performs should be a performance event, but to AKC those are "companion events". Go figure.



sammydog said:


> I like my dogs on the thin side, but fit! This would be my preference no matter what we did, I just think it is healthier!
> 
> I also generally consider "performance events" most venues outside of conformation. I think that is common terminology used, I don't think I have heard the term "companion events" used. Performance is also the term used by the GRCA: GRNews Performance Issue, the breakdown of the categories for OD/OS and VC/VCX, or the Triathalon Award.


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## Laurie Falter

If I'm asking my dog to be an athlete, he needs to be conditioned like an athlete. Ribs, spine, hip points should be easily felt under skin with very minimal subcutaneous fat, but not visible and staring. The dog should be well-muscled if being asked to compete in physically demanding venues such as agility, hunting, herding, etc.


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## K9-Design

Re: "performance" vs. "companion" per AKC
"Companion" events are those which ALL AKC breeds and now mixed-breeds can compete under. That would include Obedience, Rally, Tracking and Agility.
"Performance" events are breed-specific and must meet both AKC and the parent club approval for a dog to be eligible to compete in. These are all manner of hunt tests, field trials, lure coursing, earth dog and herding events. Only the breeds that "perform" this specific task as a part of their history and purpose are eligible.


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## rhondas

@K-9 Design

There is one exception for Companion events.
Mixed breeds are not permitted to enter any tracking events.


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## K9-Design

rhondas said:


> @K-9 Design
> 
> There is one exception for Companion events.
> Mixed breeds are not permitted to enter any tracking events.


Really! I didn't know that. Wonder why?


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## Loisiana

I think because it's already hard to get into a test


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## rhondas

@K-9 Design

The major reason for not letting mixed breeds into Tracking is the fact that there are not enough tests now. Tracking is very limited in the number of tests and entries.
I lived through it this year trying to get into a TD test before our certification certificates expired (you get four after passing basically a TD test and they are only good for one year, none are required beyond TD). I believe it's the only venue that requires a dog to certify in order to participate. We got our TD 2 weeks before our certificates expired and with 2 left. 

It's also getting more and more difficult to get into TDX and VST tests because of terrain needs etc that limits the number of tracks laid for tests. All tests are done by draw and all have way more entries than slots. For example, there are normally 2 to 4 TDX tracks laid per test only where are I live. 

There is already a mixed breed tracking organization that basically follows AKC rules.

Sorry about the long post but it's been dear to my heart.


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## K9-Design

Thanks for the explanation, lack of entry room @ tracking was my first guess as well.
However I will say, I was and continue to be ambivalent to the debate on whether or not AKC should allow mixed breeds to participate in the companion sports. I could have given or taken it. But now that they are allowed, if I support AKC I have to support it, and think it should be all or nothing. By disallowing mixed breeds in tracking you are in essence saying purebreds are better/more deserving/more important in this event, which goes against letting them into companion events in the first place! Very hypocritical of AKC, in my opinion. FYI we have trouble filling tracking tests in FL.


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## AmbikaGR

K9-Design said:


> But now that they are allowed, if I support AKC I have to support it, and think it should be all or nothing. By disallowing mixed breeds in tracking you are in essence saying purebreds are better/more deserving/more important in this event, which goes against letting them into companion events in the first place! Very hypocritical of AKC, in my opinion. FYI we have trouble filling tracking tests in FL.



But what was the REAL reason AKC allowed mixed breeds to compete in any companion venue? MONEY!!! It was/is all about a way to bolster declining entries into events. Tracking has no such issue, but should that occur down the road I am sure they AKC will then see the "error of it's way" and allow then entry there as well. Cynical - you bet ya!!


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## MarieP

AmbikaGR said:


> But what was the REAL reason AKC allowed mixed breeds to compete in any companion venue? MONEY!!! It was/is all about a way to bolster declining entries into events. Tracking has no such issue, but should that occur down the road I am sure they AKC will then see the "error of it's way" and allow then entry there as well. Cynical - you bet ya!!



EXACTLY!!!! Which is why they were originally trying to put them in separate classes and give them separate titles. Sorry, I kind of had a horse in that race, so I followed the happenings pretty closely. The whole thing just raises my hackles. They wanted to money but still wanted to keep mixes marked as second class citizens. Erg, ok, back to "performance weight."


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## K9-Design

There's a lady competing in the B classes down here, she has a mixed breed dog that roughly looks like a beagle but with pointy ears. He's really cute! And a nice working dog. And has a sparkly blue collar -- cute! Anyways I'm happy to see them competing. He'd probably be a whiz at tracking, too.


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## Megora

Back when I was training my Danny... there was somebody else at our club who had a blue heeler mix that was AWESOME at obedience.  I remember all of the finagling she had to do to show her dog in UKC obedience. And of course there weren't as many trials... 

I'm really glad that the AKC allows mixes in obedience now for that reason.


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## MarieP

Megora said:


> Back when I was training my Danny... there was somebody else at our club who had a blue heeler mix that was AWESOME at obedience.  I remember all of the finagling she had to do to show her dog in UKC obedience. And of course there weren't as many trials...



Oh man, it was so hard to find UKC trials. Until I volunteered at an AKC trial put on by my club, I had never been to an OB trial with more than 30-40 participants. That's why UOCH points are based on scores rather than dogs beat. And the Utility gloves are a bit more difficult too. I always prayed to get glove 3


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## Stretchdrive

So how many people do things like treadmill, bike ect with their dogs to condition them?


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## Megora

I just went out in the freezing rain, hail, howling winds (that kept flipping my umbrella inside out)... our usual daily walk.

I was worn out and freezing when I got back to our property and took Jacks' collar and leash off. 

He on the other hand got more and more hyped up as we went. Didn't matter he had little icicles in his coat. When I took the collar and leash off, he decided to chase after some branches blowing across a neighbor's yard. >.<

I'm freaked about how more hyper he'd be if we did biking every day.


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## Stretchdrive

I bike with them and do morning walks(on the weekends) in the summer. I am getting a treadmill this week, so soon they will be using that. I wish I could get my butt out walking again in the winter. When I had my GSD, I would take him for a long walk after supper every night, and just bundled up in multiple layers. I did the same when I had my GSD bitch, but for some reason, I have been lazy with my goldens


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## sammydog

Before we moved I used to run with them for 3 miles every morning, now I can only squeeze in 2 mornings during the week because there is no one to run when it is dark  plus the weekend if we are not competing, so that would be 2-4 days a week. The plus is the new place has a pool, so I taught the dogs to swim laps, so they swam laps almost daily in the summer and now 1-2 times a week in the winter.

I would LOVE to get a treadmill for both the dogs and I, its on my list now...


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## K9-Design

I biked Fisher and Blade while they were competing for their CHs but that was more conditioning at a gate not so much b/c they didn't get enough exercise already.


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## rhondas

We started doing a weekly aquatread session for half an hour until the pool he normally swims in at least twice a week opens again in April (it's outdoors). We normally walk at least 4 miles a day (takes 55 minutes so it's a fast pace) unless it's raining hard or extremely hot or cold.


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## AmberSunrise

My dogs are hiked and biked off lead in the back woods - usually daily. If they have an injury or weakness, they are brought to the doggie fitness centers for swimming, underwater treadmill work etc,

During the soft water months, they also go swimming a few times a week.


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## hotel4dogs

Tito is one of those fortunate types that carries a fair amount of muscle naturally. I think the word is mesomorph, I could be wrong. So I've never really done much to develop his muscle.
That said, we have a big fenced yard (about 100 x 300) and he loves to play fetch with the tennis ball and chuck-it. During field training season, he runs/swims non-stop for an hour or more at least once or twice a week, more often if I can squeeze it in. 
Because of where I live (out in the middle of farm fields, on a gravel road) he is never leash walked or biked. 
During the off season he vegetates on the floor most of the day, lol.


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## gabbys mom

I bike Oz 5x a week or so. Plus walks everyday and lots of fetch. He loves it.


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## OutWest

I posted this elsewhere so copied and pasted it here. My brother in law is a thoughtful man who bases his opinions on science. His description of the ideal body weight, which is what I'm going by as my puppy grows, is useful because it allows you to tailor the weight and food allotment to the individual dog.

This is what I've previously posted...: 
_She looks within normal range to me ... I try not to go by weight too much. Per my veterinarian BIL who researches such matters, best way to tell if a dog is the right weight is if you can see a tuck between belly and legs, if you can count her ribs easily without pushing through a lot of plumpness, and if, when you look at her from above, she shows a definite waist. If your dog looks like this, she has a healthy weight and if she's big, she's meant to to be big!. _

I try to make sure Tucker has at least one, preferably two, hours of hard exercise every day. He's very muscular and lean. I've recently starting adding a bit more food each day. He's still growing. 

I would love to see some research that could provide a BMI chart for dogs like for humans...a way to factor in age, height, bone structure, activity level and arrive at an ideal weight range... just dreaming I guess!


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## Casey and Samson's Mom

My guys are both on the lean side...Sam I have a very hard time keeping weight on!!! Casey aspires to be a fat golden, but i am controlling this urge!! Sam is "underweight" for his age/build/etc and Casey is "perfect" according to the vet,but is nicking jumps, so is being exercised more...wish that somebody was controlling my body weight as well!!


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## Megora

I thought about this thread when I was browsing pics elsewhere...

And I think this hits on some of my confusion and my worries when it comes to my guy. 

On one hand, I want my guy's weight to be as low as possible... hoping it keeps him active and healthy for a LONG time. 

On the other hand, I want my guy to still be filled out and appropriate for his size. That's muscle, fat, and fur. I want him to _look_ fluffy. 

The goldens in the pics are all females I think, and they are of a different body build than my guy (short legged compact little guy that he is) - but still I was looking at the golden on the far left. I would not want my guy to be that lean.


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## IowaGold

Megora said:


> The goldens in the pics are all females I think, and they are of a different body build than my guy (short legged compact little guy that he is) - but still I was looking at the golden on the far left. I would not want my guy to be that lean.


Your boy must have a very different body style than my dogs, because the dog on the left is exactly what my Piper looks like (body wise) and it's perfect for her (all 46-48 pounds of her!). My dogs will NEVER look "fluffy" but I purposefully choose lines that don't have all the hair!


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## MarieP

IowaGold said:


> Your boy must have a very different body style than my dogs, because the dog on the left is exactly what my Piper looks like (body wise) and it's perfect for her (all 46-48 pounds of her!). My dogs will NEVER look "fluffy" but I purposefully choose lines that don't have all the hair!


Yeah, Riot looks about like that golden too, and I want to keep him that way. I tried to find a picture that showed his condition, but I don't have any good ones.


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## Megora

IowaGold said:


> Your boy must have a very different body style than my dogs, because the dog on the left is exactly what my Piper looks like (body wise) and it's perfect for her (all 46-48 pounds of her!). My dogs will NEVER look "fluffy" but I purposefully choose lines that don't have all the hair!


I went to bed thinking I wanted to get on the forum really early to edit my comment as I thought after shutting down that I probably should have considered there are people on here who have goldens of that type. 

I would hope it's structural differences...? My guy takes after his mom - he's a little thing with just enough coat to be fluffy without being a nuisance. His mom had just had puppies when I first met her and she was out of coat and a bit thin, and she was still fluffier than that female on the far left.


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## IowaGold

Megora said:


> I went to bed thinking I wanted to get on the forum really early to edit my comment as I thought after shutting down that I probably should have considered there are people on here who have goldens of that type.
> 
> I would hope it's structural differences...? My guy takes after his mom - he's a little thing with just enough coat to be fluffy without being a nuisance. His mom had just had puppies when I first met her and she was out of coat and a bit thin, and she was still fluffier than that female on the far left.


I'm sure it's type difference. That's why goldens come in such varying types-so everyone can have what they want. Heck, in my circles, "fluffy" is almost a derogitory word! As is "blond" (poor Piper, she has to be an honorary red dog)! But if that's what someone else likes, there are plenty of goldens that fit the bill.


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## hotel4dogs

Please don't feel I'm picking on you Sarah, but I want to correct a really common mis-use of the word "type". Type refers to what makes a golden retriever a golden retriever rather than a labrador retriever, for example. I think you want to use the word "style", not "type". Your dogs are all of the same type as my dog is, as evidenced by the fact that they have their CCAs! But they are of a different style than Tito. It's common at conformation shows to hear someone say a dog is "very type-y", which is a compliment meaning he is very much to the standard.
While our dogs are all the same type, there's a style to suit every preference!
This is from Wikipedia, it's not bad:

"...The word _type_ may be incorrectly used instead of _style_ to refer to an identifiable 'style of appearance' or 'working style characteristic' of a particular kennel or "dogs of a well established line".[12] *This terminology is incorrect.* The word _type_ in reference to a dog refers specifically to the description of what defines that breed and what makes that breed of dog different from every other breed, as can be found in that breed's written Standard. When comparing dogs of the same breed, you look at _type_ first and foremost, and then you look for different _styles_ of dogs within that breed. The term _style_ refers to characteristics that are different in each dog that already has _breed type_. There can be a vast variety of _styles_ existing in each breed of dog. These characteristics develop from a breeder's desire to create a distinct 'look' (or _style_) within their line. Breeders create their own _style_ within their line, being careful not to stray from _breed type_...."



IowaGold said:


> I'm sure it's type difference. That's why goldens come in such varying types-so everyone can have what they want. Heck, in my circles, "fluffy" is almost a derogitory word! As is "blond" (poor Piper, she has to be an honorary red dog)! But if that's what someone else likes, there are plenty of goldens that fit the bill.


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## IowaGold

Yep you're correct. Type and style are used so interchangably that I made that mistake.


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## Megora

IowaGold said:


> Yep you're correct. Type and style are used so interchangably that I made that mistake.


I used the word "type" in my post wrongly before you responded. 

I meant style... or "look" I guess.


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## GoldenSail

Mine is very lean and a conformation bred bitch. Weighs in at 49.6 lbs...contrast that to a training friend who's golden bitch puppy (also conformation bred) is a little fat and weighs 68 lbs. Also crazy when I put my 50# (5# under standard) next to an 80# male (5# over standard).


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## Megora

Do you have a sideways view of Scout? 

I think you posted videos of her this summer (or maybe before that) and I thought she looked just right for her size. 

To add to the subject (or where I go from freaking out about my guy getting too thin, to panicking when we go in for his weight and I find out he's the same weight as always 78-80lbs) -

This is my guy's sideways view. When he's standing and I'm grooming him, you can feel his rib cage without pressing in. The same for his sides and backbone.


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## GoldenSail

Scout is at a good weight for her size--really. Sometimes she's borderline ribby but still that's actually a good weight. 

I just think it is so interesting the different body styles you encounter. Because she's small (weight-wise) I've been told people won't recognize her readily at hunt tests as a conformation dog.


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## Megora

Thanks! Definitely she looks right for her size. 

I think the field type goldens that I've seen are much leaner than your girl. The ones I see sometimes at fun matches (their owners do obedience and field) are deep red and very thin/light boned. Except for their obvious retriever shape, I can see why dogs like that are taken for Irish Setters.

^^^ Stating fact. Not intended to be derogatory.


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## sammydog

I think Scout looks/sounds like a good weight! How tall is she?


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## GoldenSail

Scout is a hair under 21.5"--like maybe 1/16" or less, lol.


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## sammydog

I would like to throw this out there as politely as I can... but since we all have different style preferences for Goldens (which I would not have any other way!) I think we should focus on the things that we like, rather than pointing out the things we don't like in a different style dog or making derogatory comments about a different style dog...


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## Megora

sammydog said:


> I would like to throw this out there as politely as I can... but since we all have different style preferences for Goldens (which I would not have any other way!) I think we should focus on the things that we like, rather than pointing out the things we don't like in a different style dog or making derogatory comments about a different style dog...


 I posted pics on the previous page to show what I personally feel is too lean... with regards to my own dog and my goals as far as controlling his weight. 

I want my guy to be at a proper weight for somebody who is doing a lot of jumping. His elbows thankfully are great but still can get wear and tear from too much weight slamming on them at the end of those jumps - so I am concerned about his weight. But at the same time I'm dreading making him lose weight to the extent that he might not be as nicely filled in as he is now. 

It was not intended to be derogatory towards anyone or critical of their dogs.


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