# Weave training



## IowaGold (Nov 3, 2009)

Since we've had our contact thread, I thought we needed a weave thread.

I am training Piper to weave with the 2X2 method. I am very, very impressed with her performance so far. We have gotten to the point of doing 12 straight poles with enthusiasm. So I moved on to the next step of using the rope down the middle of 6 sets of two (I can explain further if needed, but basically after the rope is removed you wind up with 6 sets of two that are turned slightly to make a little channel). This step is supposed to teach the dog to single step. Piper wants to kind of bounce through (both feet land on one side the weaves, then she hops to put both on the other side). She is pretty fast doing it this way-do all dogs learn to single step?? Are we doomed if she doesn't learn? Any other tips to get her to single step-maybe make the weaves closer (we are currently using 24" spacing, but my 2X2s are just PVC so I could make 20 or 22" connectors very easily)?

Just for completeness, Ruby was trained with channel weaves. Once she gets in the weaves she has very lovely weaves (if I don't pull away at the end...). Ruby is the reason I decided to try 2X2s with Piper, I am hoping to foster a more independent weave performance.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I am planning on doing 2x2 with Flip too b/c I've heard good things about it. But I am still waiting for the video to be available at Bowwow Flix, so we haven't actually started yet!


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## IowaGold (Nov 3, 2009)

Loisiana said:


> I am planning on doing 2x2 with Flip too b/c I've heard good things about it. But I am still waiting for the video to be available at Bowwow Flix, so we haven't actually started yet!


I wasn't sure about it at first, but WOW! I can send Piper from the finish end of the weaves and she finds the entrance on her own! There is no way Ruby could even DREAM of doing that. Heck I have to be right there to push her a little to the left even on a straight on entrance.


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

this comes up on the cleanrun list now and then...it seems like not all dogs learn to single step, though there is a step in the DVD that outlines how to get the single stride if you so desire. 

It may help to check your bases and be sure they aren't moving, that could alter weave style?

We really like the 2x2 method....one of my dogs had a variation of it, and it's what I've used with my youngest. We use it in group classes, a few variations for some types of dogs (less motivated dogs, we use it in combination with "race to reward" from _Agility Right From the Start__, essentially a second person who feeds at the end, getting the dog running right to a food source.... instead of tossing a toy or treat)


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## Stretchdrive (Mar 12, 2011)

My Rivet was started with the channel method, and did great, but still missed entries. I found the 2x2 method helped a lot with them. I really like the 2x2 method!


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

I personally do not think you should change the dogs natural weave behavior. I think trying to increases weave stress, and since it would not be natural, it would not be as fast. Let your dog decide which is best. Piper may change to be faster (single stride) on her own. I have seen both methods done by large dogs at the highest level quickly. That is the important part. 

I want to pick brains on the 2x2. Belle does not weave well, she was not taught well and I was a beginner and did not know better. Teddi and Quinn were taught by the channel method (we own channel weaves) and they weave pretty good. Quinn is still in learning mode (hop steps by the way) and Teddi we never really work on since she does not do agility BUT she weaves better than Belle. 

I want Gabby to weave independent, I want to be able to send to the weaves have the dog find the entry regardless of what side I am on, and I want to be able to reposition myself if the course calls for it or even layer. I hope to get distance on Gabby. I thought about 2x2 before, I have heard good things, but my trainer doesn't teach it so and Quinn is the hubby's dog. 

Couple questions, do you train off a dvd or book? Can you really get by with one set of 2x2? How long have you been working it with Piper to get to the point you are today? What do you personally (anyone who has trained can pipe in here) see as the pluses and minuses? 

There is a person who makes agility equipment who I will be seeing in a month. If I want I can order the weaves and have him deliver them to the trial. That would be easiest. 

I also have already started Gabby with "weaves". No she is too young to actually weave but I am teaching her the entry. Since 2x2 is just that 2x2, I am thinking she can start a bit earlier than waiting until she is 1. No I would not be doing some of the exercises to find the entry, but she can still be taught to enter on her left. Period. 

I WANT A DOG I DON'T HAVE TO BABYSIT AT THE WEAVES!!!!! Sorry, my one gripe with Belle has always been her weaves. Actually they have improved but they will never be good. Not her fault. She really was taught badly.


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

You probably can get by with three of the 2x2 bases (so six poles) but might have to "cheat" the method in a few places. 

It's a DVD: Clean Run: 2x2 Weave Training 2-DVD Set She does mention an earlier variation in her book _shaping success_, but...get the DVD...it's very well done and definitely breaks down all the steps for the people and dogs.

We have a lot of puppies in our foundation agility class. Sometimes we'll let them do a bit with weaves so the humans learn about it and to give them some excitement to keep up working in class or to repeat the class as the puppy gets older. Typically though, we only can done one or a partial lesson and they're ready to advance to more than I'm comfortable with safely giving a puppy to do. With my own dogs, I wait until they're fully grown. They progress so fast, there isn't any good reason to start early and you do NOT want to stick at the early steps too long or you will have other troubles later. Plus...as a dog grows and changes the mechanics of the behavior may become different, requireing more/different muscle movements than early on.


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## IowaGold (Nov 3, 2009)

I am working off the DVD. I started 2X2 last fall before it froze for maybe a week or two. Never got past 2 sets of 2. Started training again 3(?) weeks ago and the progress has been fast. So probably about a month to get to 12 poles with speed. We still need more work-using other weaves, going to different places (I move around the yard, but haven't done it off our property yet), more work on me running past/doing crosses/etc.

You could probably get by with 3 sets of 2 and one regular set of 6. There are several things that she does that really would be best with 6 sets. To be honest, I'm pretty happy with my PVC ones. I screwed the bases together and put holes for good stakes at the end of the feet so I really feel they are pretty sturdy. Piper hit them a couple of times this morning trying to go fast and they didn't move. They wouldn't work if they weren't on grass and couldn't be staked down.

I can't speak highly enough of the process. I am taking my DVDs to loan to my instructor tomorrow. I don't know as it's something that would work terribly well in a class situation though. It's definitely something that you need to work on almost daily.


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

Why do you need three sets? My reason asking... I have two weave pole bases one at 22" one at 24" in sets of 6. If I buy 3 sets of 2X2's (6 poles) it will get "more" expensive. Can you get by with 1 or 2? Then use my other for later? 

Again I have not seen the dvd so I have no clue what is going on. I do have stab in the ground weaves I can work with too. LOTS of those. 

And no Kristen, I would not do any 'serious training' just intro to entering on the left that I am doing now. I have her do one pole, when I am on her left, 2 when I am on the right, in (left shoulder) out right. We do open the channels all the way to get her accustom to having them on her sides. Not touching her yet. Just the desensitization.


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

I now know how bad my 1st agility instructor really was... I have no idea what you guys are talking about..LOL!


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## The_Artful_Dodger (Mar 26, 2009)

I was taught 2x2 weaves and Dodger can find the entry and weave independently. During our last agility class we were playing a game and I got mixed up and tried to tell him to go in from the wrong side and he stopped and looked at me like I'm crazy! I can send him from a distance and he will find the entry and weave and can do at least 12 poles (thats the most they have at the training school). But he's not the fastest at it. I don't plan to compete in agility but it will come in handy for rally-o if he makes it to excellent level one day.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

LOL. My first agility teacher had us luring the dogs through the poles - my dogs took a very long time to learn weaving and even longer to weave without my being by the poles  ; The 2x2 method is a really fast way of teaching the concept and entries for weaving. My current instructor uses gates which are also very fast at teaching.



Titan1 said:


> I now know how bad my 1st agility instructor really was... I have no idea what you guys are talking about..LOL!


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

I totally agree .. They will find the most comfortable way to weave as they gain experience, and their most comfortable way is usually their fastest. And the least likely to cause then to exit early or miss poles when they are moving at full speed. 





Maxs Mom said:


> I personally do not think you should change the dogs natural weave behavior. I think trying to increases weave stress, and since it would not be natural, it would not be as fast. Let your dog decide which is best. Piper may change to be faster (single stride) on her own. I have seen both methods done by large dogs at the highest level quickly. That is the important part.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Titan1 said:


> I now know how bad my 1st agility instructor really was... I have no idea what you guys are talking about..LOL!


My dog's first agility instructor and handler were awful LOL


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

Okay does someone know where I can see what you guys mean about a 2x2 without having to buy videos.. Titan weaves very quickly but I need to be on the right side and stay with him..


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## IowaGold (Nov 3, 2009)

Maxs Mom said:


> Why do you need three sets? My reason asking... I have two weave pole bases one at 22" one at 24" in sets of 6. If I buy 3 sets of 2X2's (6 poles) it will get "more" expensive. Can you get by with 1 or 2? Then use my other for later?
> 
> Again I have not seen the dvd so I have no clue what is going on. I do have stab in the ground weaves I can work with too. LOTS of those.
> 
> And no Kristen, I would not do any 'serious training' just intro to entering on the left that I am doing now. I have her do one pole, when I am on her left, 2 when I am on the right, in (left shoulder) out right. We do open the channels all the way to get her accustom to having them on her sides. Not touching her yet. Just the desensitization.


I try to outline the steps (forgive me if I miss some...). First thing you do is get the dog to go through one "open" set of poles (think of open as kind of like running between jump uprights). You throw your toy out ahead of the dog on the line you are trying to establish (but you have to wait for the dog to offer going through the poles on his own first-you in no way lure or guide the dog). 

After the dog gets the idea of running through the one set of poles (and you proof the dog's understanding by sending him from all angles), then you add a second set of two poles (also open) several feet from the first set. You maintain the same "reward line" that you established with the one set (throw the toy to the same area as before-you want the dog running through both sets of poles). 

I'm fuzzy on the next couple of steps-either you start rotating the opening of the poles (keeping the reward line the same) then bring the two sets closer together or you bring the two sets closer together, then start to rotate the openings. When your dog truly understands these last couple of steps you will see the dog start to bend and actually weave. 

Then you add a third set. During this step you might have the last two sets "straight" and the first rotated (to make the entry easier for the dog to see) or you might need to rotate the last set to make the end more obvious. 

Once the dog understand 6 "straight" poles, you add a second set of 6 poles several feet beyond the first set and work the dog doing both sets (once again you might need to rotate individual sets temporarily until the dog "gets" it). You bring the sets closer and closer to each other until you have a full set of 12 poles straight up. 

The next step is for teaching single stepping (at least that's the idea!)-you set your 6 sets of two out (rotated), run a rope up the middle of them, them rotate the sets back towards straight until they *just* touch the rope, then remove the rope. This leaves the line of weaves in just the barest hint of a channel, encouraging the dog to move through the poles quickly (and hopefully learn how to single step). 

After that you proof the weaves to your movement, with other obstacles, etc, etc. (I am going to drop back to 6 poles for a lot of the proofing so that she's more likely to be successful with the weaving part so I don't have to correct that even when she does the "challenge" part right).


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

Sarah... I will re read your post when I have time. I have to go soon but wanted to add something. I may have more questions. :curtain: :

Belle's second class EVER in agility the weave poles were brought out. They were open. We were told to lead them through. The next week they were closed and NEVER were opened again. Belle would not TOUCH the poles. She would weave WIDE!!!! It took us forever to retrain her. I took a class before her first trial (about 2 years after we started agility) and we treated her like a puppy learning for the first time. That helped TONS with her confidence, however her trust in the poles is evident... look at her Nationals videos you will see what I mean. She weaved pretty good there too. 

Only once at a trial has she ever tried to show a fast weave behavior. Sometimes in class, usually only at home.


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## jimla (Oct 9, 2008)

I taught Roxy to weave with "stab in the ground" PVC poles staggered about 4" off the center line. After she got the idea, I put them in a straight line. She is learning the entry with little prompting. I want to train her to go faster. I have been running along side encouraging her. What techniques work to improve weaving speed?


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

2x2s are great with speed because it's built from the beginning and you are conscious about when and how you reinforce.

There are some exampels on youtube if you google '2x2 weave pole' Note that not all viewers apply the method correctly and you do see some less than desirable variations.

Three sets of two poles are needed (if not more) because as you add sets, they are initially further part (so, one pair...and then 9' out, another pair).... can't do that iwth only one pair. 

The sub title isn't "12 poles in 12 days" for nothing...it often goes VERY fast provided the instructions are followed. Our students typically take a bit longer, but they're only working once a week.


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

I don't know I could buy three more sets of 2x2 when I own two sets of 12 channels. 

I am very intrigued by this. 

When you say "open" can you describe what you mean? I know what channel weaves open means, but 2x2 do slide on their mounts. So do you turn them so the dogs run between the poles? 

Jimla, straight weave poles before a dog is ready slows them down. You are better off staggering them so they invite the dog to be more comfortable and go faster. Have the first pole set on the line, the second one 3-4 to the right, 3 in line with the first pole and continue. Sort of like channel weaves but with stab in the ground. Belle weaves badly because she was forced on straight poles to late. It was something we were NEVER able to fix. My other dogs we taught with channel weaves, and we kept them open until the dog UNDERSTOOD the behavior. Even then we kept straight poles at a minimum until absolutely necessary. Quinn started weave class in Dec or Jan she took two sessions. She is just starting to show she is ready for closed weaves but not all the time.


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## IowaGold (Nov 3, 2009)

Maxs Mom said:


> I don't know I could buy three more sets of 2x2 when I own two sets of 12 channels.
> 
> I am very intrigued by this.
> 
> When you say "open" can you describe what you mean? I know what channel weaves open means, but 2x2 do slide on their mounts. So do you turn them so the dogs run between the poles?


"Open" means the set set of poles has been rotated up to 90 degrees (like the dog is running through jump uprights). "Straight" means that the poles are straight in line with the next set (normal weaves).


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## sammydog (Aug 23, 2008)

I teach the weaves my own way, and while I have always been intrigued by the 2x2 method, but I am pretty happy with what I have done. I essentially back chain them on a straight set. I start with 3 and then keep adding more with each session. I will use guide-wires off and on to help with confidence and speed, but I don't rely on them to teach. I reward with food at first and then toys exclusively. 

I did not start any weave work with Mira until I was ready to teach it start to finish. It took her about 7 days to learn a set of 12 weaves from both sides. I think that spending too much time on any one step can make it harder to move on. 

I practice entrances by doing the around the clock method.

Barley and Mira were both taught the same way. Barley singles steps and Mira bounces, they are about equal in speed at home, Mira is faster at a trial. I think that is largely due to the fact that Barley has had to weave so many different widths (20”, 22” and 24”) that he does not have the confidence to drive through at full speed. Mira has pretty much been only on 24” poles. If you do AKC I would recommend ONLY using 24” poles.

I think I agree that I would personally not try and manipulate the way my dogs naturally want to weave. I think they do what is most comfortable for them.


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## Maxs Mom (Mar 22, 2008)

Jessica... I may pick your brain more on this... as time comes near. We have a ways to go.


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## sammydog (Aug 23, 2008)

Maxs Mom said:


> Jessica... I may pick your brain more on this... as time comes near. We have a ways to go.


Anytime! I did not do any weave work with Mira until she was 15 months old.


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## sammydog (Aug 23, 2008)

Every good thread deserves some pictures! :

I also happened to get some good weave pictures of both the dogs from our last trial.

Here is Barley single stepping the weaves










Next, here is Mira who bounces through the weaves


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