# Frustrated Rally O



## mikeynote (Jun 30, 2009)

Hazel and I are in a Rally Obedience class and she has been doing great. If I have a treat and/or she knows I have a treat she will do all of the Novice signs very well. However, if she knows I don't have a treat she will do them either poorly or not at all. I've been treating her every so often...but it doesn't really help. In tonights class we tried putting the treats on one side of the room. We would then do a couple of signs...I then would get excited and say 'Let's get a treat' and then we would go over and I would give her a treat....but she still doesn't respond as enthusiastically or may not even obey my command if she knows I don't have a treat. If I have a toy..she does just fine...but that's only if I have it. I also try to use an excited voice but that doesn't seem to work that well either.

Any tips would be much appreciated.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I think this is where praise becomes so important. If a dog chooses not to respond because I don't have a treat or toy on me, I will put them into position myself. If it's a sit I'll put a hand on the rear, if it's to line up I'll put a hand in the collar and pull into heel, etc. Now the important part....praise them like crazy, even though you had to do it for them. Take your hands off the dog, and then repeat the command. If the dog then does it on his own, then he either gets a treat, or just increase the amount of praise and petting, so the dog can see the difference in the value of the reward for needing "help" to fulfill the command versus doing it on his own. 

If, on the other hand, he does not do the command on his own again, you go in and make him be right again (and praise again). 

The rule I go by is if the dog fails to do the command on his own twice in a row, then the next time I automatically give the help to him, not giving him the chance to be wrong. Whatever you do, do not pull out a treat at this point! That would just teach him that all he has to do to get a treat is ignore your commands.

I find the biggest problem newer trainers have is giving appropriate praise. Especially in public. If your dog is struggling with something, then you've got to really lay it on thick. Pretend like your smartie pants little dog just won you a million dollars. Normal people will think you are crazy. Good dog trainers will think you are doing smart training. Your dog will love it.


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

Look at your set up. When you practice with food... how do you use it?

-Be sure the food is not visible until --after-- the good behavior occurs. Then pull the food out. 
-Look at where you keep your food. If you use a treat pouch, keep it behind your back. I prefer to use shirts with the front pouchy-pocket things. 

Set up a similar exercise at home. 
Treats -right- next to you on the counter. Ask for a sit. Get the treat. Repeat a few times.
Then go two steps away. Repeat.... then three....etc.

I would also guess you would need more practice with self control type behaviors. ("Leave It" and "dog -zen" on various behaviors.... can you heel past a ton of food...that you are also using as your reinforcer? Recall past it? etc...

And I would think you need to work more on your individual behaviors. Does she respond immediately and fast to your varied cues? Is your body holding -completely- still? Are any visual cues ---exactly--- the same every time? Are you avoiding extra bending over, waving, talking? (yes it's allowed in rally...but as you're learning to be more proficient, this can help).

And maybe talk to your instructor about all of this too..if you were being unsuccesful in class, hopefully s/he helped you adjust the exercises so they were at an appropriate difficulty level for you. 

....if you'll be using verbal praise or petting...take the time to condition/train them to function as reinforcers. Talk or pet. Then feed a treat. Repeat. A lot. Most people have unconsciously worked on this... I haven't and know I need to!


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

You are working with a 10 month old Golden....lots of them go through a rather flaky period that can be exasperating. 
Hang in there...


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## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

I agree, she's quite young. I would get a treat pouch or load up the pockets or your mouth, and keep her guessing when the food is coming as well as how much she'll get. If you are making a big deal of getting a treat, working her, giving her that one treat, then getting another treat out of the training bag, she'll KNOW when you don't have treats on you. If you have 10 in your pocket and vary when she's getting them and how many, and not going to the training bag each time, she'll be more likely to work for you. I wouldn't do much for correction or proofing, just keep it positive and expect her to be a teenager at this point. She'll get better as she matures and be more 'ready' to handle corrections then too. 

With my guys I'll often take treats and toys into the ring without them and place them in spots, then go back and work them through the course, and pull out things as we go to keep them guessing. One time I'll ask for them to do a whole course for one tiny treat, the next time I'll have them do a jump and contact and pull out a ball and party - they never know which it'll be and when they'll get rewarded, so they try their best. They also don't know if I have one treat or twenty on me.

Lana


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## mikeynote (Jun 30, 2009)

Thanks everyone for your input!!! I'll give it a try...I'm not giving up


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## Muddypaws (Apr 20, 2009)

Don't give up, Rally is so much fun.

Kirby went through a period where she wouldn't sit. We would heel, halt and she would not SIT.... :doh: However, she would sit on the second part of a sign, Come front-sit, finish-sit. I have her in two different classes and neither trainer could figure out why, just a stage I guess.

We worked on just heeling and sitting and I made a HUGE deal out of a sit and gave her a treat. No sit, no treat and I only gave her a command once if she didn't sit I would say "oopps" and we would heel and sit. She got it fast, we just needed to have more fun so I would jog and stop, go slow - stop. Soon it was a game and she sat every time. 

As RedDogs said use a hoodie or shirt with pockets and only give that treat when they are in position. If she isn't straight or in position just say good and continue, when it's in position say "yes" and give a treat.

Check your cueing too, if I'm off or give a sloppy cue Kirby will become confused and not sure of what I am asking her to do. I get corrected, Kirby gets pets and treats.

Keep it fun and don't work when you get frustrated. I have found that once Kirby "gets" it I can back off with treats and give her happy excited praise. She will respond to that and I can treat less frequently. I find she does well when we make learning a game and I keep sessions short. I also have to give a lot of credit to Kirby, she is smart and learns things very fast. Keep working, Rally is fun.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Also check out the book Building a Bridge from Training to Testing.


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## mikeynote (Jun 30, 2009)

Thanks...I'll check out the book. I'm trying to fit in some 5 minute training sessions a couple of times a day....and it seems to be working. I praise her after each sign and after a few signs I would get super excited and say 'let's go get a treat' and walk her over to get them. She's doing well...we'll see how that translates to her class this coming week.

Any tips for when we get to the dog show. I have her entered 4 of the days at the Raleigh shows. Should I go early and get her acclimated to the noise and all the people and dogs? I'm afraid she may get distracted.

Thanks again for everyone input. It's much appreciated!!!


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

One of the most frustrating things about starting to show a new dog is figuring out the best pre-show routine for that dog. Every dog is different.

I would get to the show early, walk her around, then let her chill in a crate for awhile. Then get her back out and walk her around some more, then back in the crate.

The biggest challenge is figuring out the final warm up for the dog before going into the ring. Straight from crate to ring, 15 minutes out of crate before going into the ring, drill some exercies, play a game, sit on the floor and rest.....each of those work better for different dogs. It's something you've got to play around with.


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## Muddypaws (Apr 20, 2009)

I suggest going with a show buddy, fortunately my friend is big into agility and shows frequently, she actually took us to our first show and helped me all the way. She was a tremendous help.

Our first show was outdoors (never trained outdoors accept the back yard) and raining. Kirby was totally unfocused and if that wasn't bad enough there was a lake next to the rings and goose poop everywhere. I walked her and walked her and walked her. We practice and she wouldn't sit (non of the dogs wanted to sit and who could blame them - :yuck: - puddles/mud everywhere). 

By the time we got in the ring I had no idea how she would do, she had calmed down a little but still was trying to look everywhere at once. We were in Novice A so and our first show and the judge was an angel. She repeated two signs but did everything I asked, a little slow but she did it. We actually tied for first, got second place and she won a crystal candy (treat) dish. 

Second and third shows were indoors, crowded, noisy. I did exactly what Louisiana suggested, walked around, visited friends, worked a little, crate time, walkies. As I calmed down she calmed and her focus really picked up. Also, since novice is last in the ring a lot of the other competitors are long gone so the distractions are less.

Go early and bring a crate, chair, treats, etc. You will learn right away what works for your dog.

Don't forget to empty your pockets of treat before you enter the ring.
Chew a mint before you enter the ring, don't ask me why but the mint disguises your nervous energy. Try to remain the same person the train with and not become a nervous stranger when you enter the ring, that will really confuse them.

Good-luck!!


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## mikeynote (Jun 30, 2009)

Awesome tips...thanks. My mom is coming into town and she'll be going with me. I'll make sure we walk around and then crate her. I'll also try the mint thing 

I'm excited and nervous at the same time and it's 1.5 weeks away


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## mikeynote (Jun 30, 2009)

I'm going to have my mom take some video that I'll try to post...so you can see if we do ok or if it's an epic failure....and if it is I know it will be mostly me...and that's ok


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Don't feel too bad if it doesn't go well. It can't be much worse than my first time in the ring. I signed up for my first trial after a course at Petsmart and two lessons for competitive obedience. I was totally clueless. Qualified with a 171.

Whatever happens, just have fun!


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## Muddypaws (Apr 20, 2009)

mikeynote said:


> I'm going to have my mom take some video that I'll try to post...so you can see if we do ok or if it's an epic failure....and if it is I know it will be mostly me...and that's ok


Just Have Fun!! That is what Rally is all about. You will learn a lot from your first trial. I can't wait to hear how you do.  There is no such thing as failure, just more chances to improve. Just keep talking to her and keep the lead loose (even if you have to follow her to get her attention back).


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## mikeynote (Jun 30, 2009)

EEK. I just got the schedule and there are like 13 dogs in Novice A. I thought it would be neat to see how some of them do before I go into the ring. NO LUCK. We go first all 4 days  Oh well..we'll survive


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

ugh, gotta hate that. Oh well, at least you get it over early.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

One tiny piece of advice is to tear small slots in your arm band and slide them into the elastic band they give you to hold it on your arm. That way, you can be sure it stays put and you won't have to think about it. Some people actually put treats in there. Another thing is to make sure Hazel is totally comfortable during your class' walk through( no dogs allowed) so that you feel good about using every second of the time to walk the course and plan it out in your head. Everyone is much kinder to Novice A than other competitors, and it's a good time to savor. Even though it's fun to Q and score well, that is not the most important thing. The fact that you've trained and then entered a 10 month old means that you are already a champ! Give her and yourself plenty of room to make mistakes and forgiveness for nervous errors- before you know it, you'll be working on Excellent and missing the days you were just starting out. Try to focus on Hazel, your bond with her and your training. Let all the other people go until after you've had your time in the ring. Try not to focus on what the other experienced people are doing; you can make a separate peace, just you and your dog. Then, when you get in the ring, include the judge a little bit. You can relate with your dog primarily, but have a nice, friendly demeanor to the judge. However, do not talk/ chat with the judge either before hand. The judge may offer you a few words on your way out- listen, drink it in. Some obedience people make a point to prentend the judge is invisible, but it's not really the flavor of Rally. For one of my dogs, working and taking the edge off is key, but for another one, it is exhausting and he's better off crated for a lion's share of the busy show day. He's just too tired to be at his best if he's out schmoozing. Tally though, is balistic if he's too sheltered, and is a social butterfly. He does best in the ring if he's out and about. You'll get to know what works for Hazel. That can be a nice goal beyond a novice leg- to learn how much exposure to the sights and sounds of the show your dog needs to work her best.


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## mikeynote (Jun 30, 2009)

Thanks for all of the encouragement...it really means a lot to me!! Thanks also for the armband tip...I wasn't even thinking about that. I think once I get through the first run I'll feel much better. I just need to remember to be patient if she doesn't respond to a command right away....I need to not panic and be patient and talk to her and I think we'll be fine.
Thanks again and I'll make sure to post some video/and or pictures.


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## Muddypaws (Apr 20, 2009)

Watch the Novice B folks to get familiar with the course and how it's judged. You will have the same course for A and usually the judges are great for Novice A. After your first day you will be more comfortable for the rest and you will be happy to go early too.

You will need to crate your dog to walk the course, walk it several times and go through the signs give your commands and do the sign as if you have your dog with you. If possible get the course (it's usually printed out on for everyone). You will be familiar with it and can practice the signs in your warm ups.

Can't wait to hear how you do, I am so excited for you!!


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