# Please x ray your pregnant dog!



## redlady (Aug 7, 2013)

Hello everyone, I am new to GRF, I have my golden girl Cassie, 4 years young and as of 8/29 her 3 beautiful babies, one boy and two girls. We had a golden whom we adopted 9 years ago and there began my love of goldens. Unfortunately he (Tucker) passed away last December from cancer. We found Cassie for adoption from a couple who could "no longer tolerate her shedding". We are so happy to have found her. Long story short, Cassie came into heat this June and we hastily decided to breed her to my uncle's 2 year old male GR. Her pregnancy progressed without incident. I have experience with whelping and have done hours of reading into the subject as well. Now, I am a full time student and money is tight. We opted not to have xrays taken due to the cost. Boy was that ever a mistake. Cassie had 3 pups in about 3 hours and then she just stopped. No contractions whatsoever. After several hours I called the vet and she informed me that though uncommon, they can sometimes have small litters. But I should bring her in the next day for a check up. Her last pup was born at 3:47 am, and later that night around 8:30 she delivered two stillborn pups. I resuscitated to no avail. Cassie was taken to the vet the next day for the x Ray she should have had the week before. No pups left inside thank goodness and both her and pups are doing great. Some if you will be angry by this, call be a back yard breeder. That's fine, I am guilty. But I wanted to share my story, as I git lots of good info "lurking" on this site during her pregnancy. If anyone is considering breeding and not checking to see how many pups to expect DON'T DO IT! I lost two because of my ignorance and easily could have lost mom and all. X rays are not as expensive here as I thought either.


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## dezymond (May 3, 2012)

Sorry for the loss of the two pups, but glad to hear 3 of them made it out. I hope she makes a strong recovery and that the pups grow up to be healthy loving Goldens.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Glad all is well with mom and pups.. From people who try to follow the GRCA recommendations, what was the reasoning behind the breeding?


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Just to point something out. If you would have done an x-ray, that does not guarantee that those 2 pups would have survived. Would you have done a c-section for around $1500?

There are many breeders who do not like to do x-rays because of the radiation exposure. I did an x-ray on my girl's 1st breeding. Vet counted 6. I counted 7... And she had 8.

Will I do an x-ray for her next breeding? I am not sure.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Count yourself extremely lucky--just search for the thread on Lush's babies. Can't imagine the medical bills Jill accumulated fighting for the life of Lush & her pups. I do hope you accomplished the bare minimum health clearances (ofa hips/elbows, cerf & cardiologist cleared heart) on both Cassie & the sire before breeding the two. If not, will you complete those before placing the pups?


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## redlady (Aug 7, 2013)

We wanted puppies is why we bred them. Cassie and the sire are both excellent dogs. I was never going to sell them, was not doing it for money, that was never the intention. The pups would/will be placed with family members. Any extra pups we had I was going to keep or ask a small rehoming fee. But, that isn't the case now. I am keeping one, the sire owner is keeping one and the other is going to my cousin. 

I do know that an x Ray would not have guaranteed survival of the two pups, of course. But in this case I think it might have. There seemed to be nothing wrong with them, except they were hypoxic. From it being nearly 17 hours between puppies. Had I had oxytocin on hand, or knew there were more pups, I do believe it would have been different. I thought she was done, and so did she. 

My vet recommended that I have her hips certified. BUT I'm not selling puppies and she will not be having anymore as we are having her spayed. I probably should have done it before, but like I said it was a hasty decision. I'm not saying it was the right decision either. But what's done is done. 

Absolutely I would have had a ceserean if need be. I even asked for a price quote because I was sure she was going to need one after she delivered those stillborns so late after starting labour. 

I still think having the x Ray is a good idea, even to get some idea if how many there are. I believe I could have saved those pups. Get her to the vet after the contractions stopped. But we have her and those 3 little cuties and I have learned my lesson. 

I have these babies to raise, and I'm hoping to find advice or just be able to share them! 
Thank you!


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## redlady (Aug 7, 2013)

Here are some pictures


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## redlady (Aug 7, 2013)

Oops, HERE they are!!!!! Hahaha!!!


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## Eowyn (Aug 29, 2013)

Many responsible breeders do not do x rays due to the extra radiation unless they think they need to. Puppies are also notorious for hiding, and often the counts are off. Most breeders will also feel around to make sure they can't feel anymore puppies inside (you learn to feel pups with experience). I am glad to see you seem to want to learn, welcome to the forum.


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## OnMyWay2MyDreams (Feb 13, 2011)

I am glad you are learning from it and want to pass it along..i agree with those reasonings on why an xray is a good idea. An xray taken late in pregnancy and one view and one time is safe. We had another thread talking about it. I am glad to hear you have homes for them and will be spaying her. Sounds like she could have troubles if she had another litter. Good luck to you!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I think this is definitely why if you surrender or rehome your male or female, take the extra care to spay and neuter them first.


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## redlady (Aug 7, 2013)

Thank you all for the warm welcome! I was very apprehensive at first because I didn't go about things the way I should have, I admit that. But I do want to learn and want what is best for my girl and her pups. I do think she has a problem with labouring, and will never risk it again. All the pups will be within 20 miles of me! I wouldn't have been upset if she truly only had 3, at all.


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## redlady (Aug 7, 2013)

@megora....we gave cassie a wonderful home. Her previous owners kept her in a kennel on a concrete floor all the time. Just because we wanted to have puppies for ourselves doesn't mean we aren't good people or deserve to have puppies too. Are you a breeder?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

redlady said:


> @megora....we gave cassie a wonderful home. Her previous owners kept her in a kennel on a concrete floor all the time. Just because we wanted to have puppies for ourselves doesn't mean we aren't good people or deserve to have puppies too. Are you a breeder?


I have no doubt you are good owners. But there are other ways to get puppies than breeding dogs who have an unknown history to other dogs who have an unknown history. Better and more moral ways. 

I don't mean to be unkind here - I just love the breed and this is somewhat based on where I came from years ago when our first golden was a backyard bred golden. I just don't think anyone should be encouraged to randomly breed their dogs. It's more than not taking xrays beforehand. 

You have xrays and tests that need to be done. And a full medical history known as well. 

It also keeps your slate clean as far as being able to tell the owners of those puppies you created not to breed them indiscriminately. 

I wish you the best of luck with your dogs, my best.


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## redlady (Aug 7, 2013)

Thank you. Everyone has to start somewhere, and I highly doubt that every breeder knew everything there was to know about breeding and everything involved when they first got started. I am not a breeder, I simply wanted a puppy. I have adopted the two GR that I have/had. Both dogs were fully grown when I adopted them. I too love the breed. The most loyal and patient companions!


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## redlady (Aug 7, 2013)

Question: to remove or not remove the dew claws? These pups will be pets, not hunting dogs. Any advice appreciated, thanks!


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

Both of my Goldens are adopted, one through a GR Rescue and I found my boy at my County HS. I adopted them at the age of 2. They are both AKC but not well bred goldens. They both have their dew claws. 

Maybe one of the Breeders will post what they do.

However, I _*think *_if it's going to be done, it needs to be done within a couple of days after they are born, but I am not a breeder and definitely not an expert.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

IMHO it makes more sense to remove the dewclaws on a dog which is hunted as there is more exposure for them to catch the dewclaws in brushes and injure themselves. 
The more I read about the dewclaws the more I think they should not be removed. But the owners should make sure to keep them nicely trimmed.


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## GoldensGirl (Aug 2, 2010)

You might also do a search on dew claws using the GRF search feature. I think there have been several discussions about the issue.


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## redlady (Aug 7, 2013)

Thanks! I did a search and found a very useful thread. Cassie has her dews, and she came from a breeder, or that's the story I got. I have never had any trouble with hers. The pups are now 4 days old. I think they will be keeping theirs!


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

we had only one dog whose dew claws were removed and he came from a field breeder. I am very worried about a dewclaw injury and trim them every week. A torn or ruptured dewclaw can be very dangerous.


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## redlady (Aug 7, 2013)

Yes a torn dew claw can bleed very badly. Cassie gets her nails trimmed and fur between toes regularly, otherwise she tries to pull out the fur! She likes to be kept tip top! The two puppy homes are very responsible pet owners, one is the sire's owner so I know they will be alert to keeping them trimmed up. Thank you!


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## GoldensGirl (Aug 2, 2010)

Here's an article that may interest you, too: How to trim your dog's nails and why long toe nails are harmful to your dog.


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## redlady (Aug 7, 2013)

Thank you golden girl! I knew not clipping nails was uncomfortable for the dog allowing them to grow and curl under but I was not aware that it caused stress on their joints. Good to know, as gr can be prone to joint problems and arthritis. Yikes!


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

I am so sorry you lost your pups, but as mentioned X-Rays are not always able to see all the pups and you could have lost those 2 pups anyways.

I personally do not XRay or ultra sound my girl unless I suspect a problem - while I know they say there is no danger, why take the chance ?

About the dew claws - there is more and more evidence of how useful they truly are. If they are removed they should be done shortly after the birth of the puppies. Speaking again from a personal perspective, I would not buy a dog whose front dewclaws had been removed.

ETA: Rear dewclaws on the other hand! I am unsure if they serve any purpose and whenever I see them they are hanging loose and seem unattached to anything that would make the useful - those I would remove. 

In agility you can really see how dogs use their front dewclaws and how disadvantaged they would be without them.


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## redlady (Aug 7, 2013)

Wow, I have been surprised by those who don't x Ray. Like you, I was the same way. Until I had a problem. I didn't see a real reason to do it when she was progressing so nicely and its expensive. And you're right, I might have lost them regardless. I have no way to know, and maybe they were already deceased and that could have stopped her Labour??? I guess it's just one of those things, it happens. But I have been upset with myself for not having it done. Maybe it wouldn't have made a difference. Thank you!


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## Glassbuttercup (Jan 22, 2012)

Hi redlady  Congratulations on your puppies, I am so glad that you have decided to come out (very brave) and ask for education and advice. I will say that I am glad that you have made the decision to have your girl spayed  

I will always have the dew claws removed on my puppies. Some of those dew claw injuries can be REALLY bad, especially if it catches and tears


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

I believe the vast majority of experienced breeders would agree it is not in the best interest of the developing litter to xray the dam. Most that I know will do an ultrasound around 4 weeks post breeding to confirm the pregnancy. But like a xray, the ultrasound is not always accurate when it comes to numbers. They only give you an approximation of how many.


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## redlady (Aug 7, 2013)

I don't want others to make the same mistakes I did. But I am beginning to see that stillborn puppies is sometimes just part of it, and a risk you take when breeding. Had I listened to my gut, I would have taken her to the vet sooner, after the 3rd pup when Labour ceased. I knew that 3 pups was unlikely. But the dam was in no way showing any signs of distress. Her Labour just stopped. So we decided to wait, and I did call the vet who agreed it wasnt impossible and if she was fine, then no need for concern. But again, no way to know how long the pups had been deceased. Thank you everyone for all of the advice and comments!


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## Eowyn (Aug 29, 2013)

I am curious what steps you are taking to properly socialize the puppies?


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

She has lots of family near by so I'm sure the puppies are being handled enough.

Everybody has a different idea of what 'proper' is...doesn't even matter what the topic is. And everybody can find fault with what someone else does. 

She is being open and honest, I don't think that should be discouraged.


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## redlady (Aug 7, 2013)

Socialization is not an issue! We have 3 children, a beagle and several cats/kittens and also a parrot!  Paco parrot is very interested in them hahaha!!!! They get TONS of attention, in fact I have some friends on their way over now!


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## redlady (Aug 7, 2013)

Thank you, Penny's mom. I greatly appreciate that! I am just trying to do what is right and I can't help being very excited about the puppies


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## Jaykay (Jul 20, 2013)

A slightly different note, but I always have my sheep and goats scanned (it's ultrasound, so very safe compared with X-rays). I like knowing if I am expecting another lamb/kid and if therefore to go looking for it, if it doesn't appear. 

I'm sorry you lost those two RedLady but maybe they would have died anyway. You sound like you're working hard to do all the right things with those three little pups


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## Eowyn (Aug 29, 2013)

redlady said:


> Socialization is not an issue! We have 3 children, a beagle and several cats/kittens and also a parrot!  Paco parrot is very interested in them hahaha!!!! They get TONS of attention, in fact I have some friends on their way over now!


That was my way of trying to politely ask if they were in the house. (I now realize that it didn't make sense in that respect though). I am shocked by the number of people who think they can raise puppies outside. Having said that you do seem to have the right motives and want to learn. No offense was intended.


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