# Establishing a hunt



## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

So watching the WC/WCX this past weekend, the judge talked about how if the dog runs through the area of fall of one bird, then goes to a different area of fall, but never established a hunt on the first area, it is not considered a switch. What is officially considered establishing a hunt? How do you tell a dog has established a hunt versus just running through the area?


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

It really depends on the level being judged. 
At Junior, they pretty much have to put their head down and establish an intense hunt. 
At Master, sometimes just stopping very briefly to sniff will be considered an established hunt.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I guess that's the part that confuses me, I thought that when the dog started running circles in an area, that was establishing a hunt. I don't see flip put his nose down until he's actually on top of the bird. If he doesn't pin it he just runs around in the area for awhile, I figure he's air scenting but I don't ever truly know what's going on in that dog's mind.

I guess I thought once the dog broke off his line and started going in various directions he was at that point hunting. Was I wrong?


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Loisiana said:


> So watching the WC/WCX this past weekend, the judge talked about how if the dog runs through the area of fall of one bird, then goes to a different area of fall, but never established a hunt on the first area, it is not considered a switch. What is officially considered establishing a hunt? How do you tell a dog has established a hunt versus just running through the area?


That judge is not only knowledgeable but correct. I attended a Judge's seminar conducted by Jerry Mann and that issue was specifically addressed. A problem may occur with judges who don't know the difference or who just want to impose what they think is a stricter interpretation of the rules.

BTW, you can attend a judge's seminar and I recommend that you do. It is really a Judge's and Handler's Seminar.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

hotel4dogs said:


> It really depends on the level being judged.
> At Junior, they pretty much have to put their head down and establish an intense hunt.
> At Master, sometimes just stopping very briefly to sniff will be considered an established hunt.



I am curious as to what Dan has to say on the issue, i.e. if he were judging.

My take---a brief sniff is not establishing a hunt.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Flip's double was pretty pathetic, he kind of ran all over, from one area to the other (I don't fault him, he's only done two doubles before in his life, that's on me and not doing much training, he did fabulous the day before on two singles), but judges said it wasn't considered a switch. They did have to discuss whether to let him through to the next series, and said he would have to mark his water birds very well to pass (which of course he did, how can a dog not mark WC water)

I'm going to try to create a picture of what my crazy dog did on his double.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

so here's my extremely professional appoximation of Flip's run around the field. you can probably add several circles in there. Green line is the first time he was sent, red line was the second time. I guess he really liked that other bird.


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

I would not call acknowledging scent establishing a hunt. I need to see the dog commit to the area and begin to actively search. There are judges who would though, as some of the discussions on RTF demonstrate! (and if I saw someone judge that way I would likely not enter under them again!) In your picture, Jodie, there should not be an issue with your green line, especially since he cruised by on the back side of the gun station--he never really got into the active hunt area for the right hand mark. Now with the red line you were much closer to trouble. If he had made another loop or two over where he had already retrieved and committed to that area again, then the judges may have had a decision to make.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Lemme guess, the wind was going this way --------------->

For a WC it wouldn't be a switch, it's going to an old fall. A bit less of a problem.

"Establishing a hunt" is in the eye of the beholder. I have seen dogs OBVIOUSLY hunting in an old fall or switch kind of scenario, never find the bird and simply work their way to the other fall and stumble on the bird, not be dropped. I've seen dogs breeze through the short bird of an inline situation, dip their nose as they are running to the longer bird, and get dropped for switching. 
To me, a judge needs to determine the dog's intent, which is of course quite an objective task!


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

K9-Design said:


> Lemme guess, the wind was going this way --------------->
> 
> For a WC it wouldn't be a switch, it's going to an old fall. A bit less of a problem.
> 
> ...


Oh, the Golden nose!!! Green line , no established hunt, red line, dog left an established hunt.

Agreed that in a GRCA WC the dog would be safe because of the distinction made in the regs between a switch (2 birds still on the ground--leaving a hunt on one to get the other), and returning to an old fall and self-recovering. 

In a hunt test, the distinction is still there, but the way it is scored would leave the dog in trouble. In a SH double, that leaving a live fall to return to an old fall would result in a low score in perseverance, and not proceeding directly to the fall and establishing a hunt in the area would result in a lowered marking score as well. With dings in two categories that could lower the score enough not to get called back.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

his singles from junior looked like this. After watching so many dogs put on big hunts, when he stopped so soon and put his head down I was afraid he had stopped to chew on grass or something else really dumb LOL. (Pictuer's not totally accurate, second gunner was farther back than the first, but you get the idea)


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

He runs HRC, where they would not consider a brief sniff as establishing a hunt. The dog would have to actually put his nose down, pause, etc. 



gdgli said:


> I am curious as to what Dan has to say on the issue, i.e. if he were judging.
> 
> My take---a brief sniff is not establishing a hunt.


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