# Thoughts/knowledge about this breeding?



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

no knowledge, but looks like a very nice pedigree.


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## CharlieBear80 (Oct 13, 2013)

Is there a Golden in the US that does not have either Twin-Beau-D's Peterbuilt or Rush Hill's Haagen-Dazs somewhere in their pedigree?

Did you look at the longevity pedigree on k9Data? I realize there are some holes in the available info but it looks decent to me. Someone told me that you shouldn't be worried so much about dogs in a pedigree dying from cancer as you should be concerned about _what age_ the dogs that die from cancer are when they pass away.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

CharlieBear80 said:


> Is there a Golden in the US that does not have either Twin-Beau-D's Peterbuilt or Rush Hill's Haagen-Dazs somewhere in their pedigree?


Lol!  I don't think so. Peter, Kirby, and Ready are pretty much in every dog. I see Chaos is a great-grandparent, which gives me a tiny bit of pause. Tiny.



> Did you look at the longevity pedigree on k9Data? I realize there are some holes in the available info but it looks decent to me. Someone told me that you shouldn't be worried so much about dogs in a pedigree dying from cancer as you should be concerned about _what age_ the dogs that die from cancer are when they pass away.


Yes, I looked at it, and it's a bit frustrating. There's no info until the great-grandparent generation (I think all the grandparents are alive except for Hobo, who only recently died, I believe), and there are only three listed in that generation. Cause of death on one was cancer unknown origin (at age 14), cause of death was "blood clot" on one (whatever that means), and no CoD on the third. Beyond great-grandparents I don't know how useful the info is. :shrug:

I wish more people listed deaths and causes. It would sure make things a lot easier.

Also, I don't know a lot about the health/longevity of the Japanese dogs in this line. I really like Gaia, but don't know that much about his line.


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## lhowemt (Jun 28, 2013)

I'm partial to Remington (Goldstorm) as he is Lila's great grandpa.

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## lhowemt (Jun 28, 2013)

Would you share why chaos gives you pause? Pm if you prefer. Thx

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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

lhowemt said:


> Would you share why chaos gives you pause? Pm if you prefer. Thx
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


It's no secret. Chaos' sire died of hemangiosarcoma at age 7. So a Chaos pup (at least at this point) is a little beyond my personal comfort zone, though he certainly continues to sire a _lot_ of litters ever since 2005, so obviously other people are less concerned. And Chaos would be 10 now. Since Chaos is a great-grandfather to this litter, I'm not terrifically concerned about it in this context.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

My Jake doesn't have Kirby or Peterbilt- here's his k9data page:
Pedigree: CH Prism's Freedom Isn'T Free CD JH WCX VC CCA
Of course, like the rest of America, I also have a bunch of dogs who ARE Kirby rich..


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## CharlieBear80 (Oct 13, 2013)

Prism Goldens said:


> My Jake doesn't have Kirby or Peterbilt- here's his k9data page:
> Pedigree: CH Prism's Freedom Isn'T Free CD JH WCX VC CCA
> Of course, like the rest of America, I also have a bunch of dogs who ARE Kirby rich..


He's a handsome boy! 

Just to be clear, I don't have a problem with either of those dogs, I was just being cheeky. I've looked at so many pedigrees over the last month and a half that I was starting to go cross-eyed, but those 2 seemed to pop up in almost every single one and it stood out to me.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Prism Goldens said:


> My Jake doesn't have Kirby or Peterbilt- here's his k9data page:
> Pedigree: CH Prism's Freedom Isn'T Free CD JH WCX VC CCA
> Of course, like the rest of America, I also have a bunch of dogs who ARE Kirby rich..


You have a fantastic pedigree there, and I LOVE the COI. Sweet!


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Some advice that I was given (from a mentor of mine regarding pedigrees) was first, no pedigree is perfect. So look at the individual dog/bitch pedigrees and see if the pedigree combination reduces the genetic influence of dogs that you want to avoid further concentrating into your puppy. So, for example, when looking at potential "boyfriends" for my girls I'm looking to reduce the genetic influence of particular dogs and am eliminating stud dogs based on that, initially. I've found it helpful for me


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Prism Goldens said:


> My Jake doesn't have Kirby or Peterbilt- here's his k9data page:
> Pedigree: CH Prism's Freedom Isn'T Free CD JH WCX VC CCA
> Of course, like the rest of America, I also have a bunch of dogs who ARE Kirby rich..


Cool, he has a lot of Mardovar behind him. I have just this year, met Dodi Borsay...lovely titles on your dog.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

My dogs have "show" pedigrees and was thinking, nope, do not have those dogs in their pedigrees...well, actually, no Kirby, but I bred a litter that I co own who go back to,Peterbuilt... And then five of mine, related, go back to Peterbuilt's half brother, Monty....


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

This is off topic, but I love seeing CH Goldruls Yes I Said Yes I Will Yes For Prism, RN out and about. I wrote 50 page Masters thesis on James Joyce, lol.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

LOL!I'm cheeky too many days...


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

CharlieBear80 said:


> Is there a Golden in the US that does not have either Twin-Beau-D's Peterbuilt or Rush Hill's Haagen-Dazs somewhere in their pedigree?


Pedigree: Am. CH ; U-CH U-CD HR Deauxquest Hard Day's Knight UDT VER RAE MH WCX CCA VCX OS DDHF ; Can. CD WC

Pedigree: Morninglo Wing-T Your Bird Can Sing CD MH WCX CCA VC


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

K9-Design said:


> Pedigree: Am. CH ; U-CH U-CD HR Deauxquest Hard Day's Knight UDT VER RAE MH WCX CCA VCX OS DDHF ; Can. CD WC
> 
> Pedigree: Morninglo Wing-T Your Bird Can Sing CD MH WCX CCA VC


LOL, is there a versatile pedigree that doesn't have Yogi or Whirly in it.
I guess they're in there for a reason.


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## Eowyn (Aug 29, 2013)

CharlieBear80 said:


> Is there a Golden in the US that does not have either Twin-Beau-D's Peterbuilt or Rush Hill's Haagen-Dazs somewhere in their pedigree?


I don't believe Malagold lines have either of them. I am less sure, but I think Highmark does not have them.


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## Eowyn (Aug 29, 2013)

I am sending you a pm with info.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Even more than Kirby and Peter (and Ready, as he seems to be in as many as the other two), at some point I almost always see Aruba and/or Teddy in pedigrees. They're just older dogs, so people don't seem to talk about them much. But they are in everything, and often come up as the dominant dogs in genetic information, it seems.


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## Eowyn (Aug 29, 2013)

DanaRuns said:


> Even more than Kirby and Peter (and Ready, as he seems to be in as many as the other two), at some point I almost always see Aruba and/or Teddy in pedigrees. They're just older dogs, so people don't seem to talk about them much. But they are in everything, and often come up as the dominant dogs in genetic information, it seems.


 Aruba (and Teddy) was very influential in many, many pedigrees.


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## CharlieBear80 (Oct 13, 2013)

DanaRuns said:


> Even more than Kirby and Peter (and Ready, as he seems to be in as many as the other two), at some point I almost always see Aruba and/or Teddy in pedigrees. They're just older dogs, so people don't seem to talk about them much. But they are in everything, and often come up as the dominant dogs in genetic information, it seems.


Who is Aruba? Teddy I am familiar with and see a lot as well.

Also, is it fair to say they are seen a lot in East Coast dogs but less in the midwest/West Coast? I noticed that researching a few sires on some litters that were out of Colorado. Sorry, I totally derailed this thread, I just find this all really interesting!


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Aruba was probably the most influential bitch in US breed history for the Golden Retriever:

AmberacsAsterlingAruba

Am/Can CH Amberac's Asterling Aruba OD SDHF Photo by genuinegoldens | Photobucket

Pedigree: BISS BIS Am Can CH Amberac's Asterling Aruba OD SDHF

I first saw her in Greenville, SC when Mary brought her down as a class bitch. I had never seen such a pretty bitch with so much hair! She was groomed and shown to perfection by Mary. Back then, grooming was pretty basic. Aruba and Mary changed all that!


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## cgriffin (Nov 30, 2011)

She was in my last two boys's pedigree.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

hollyk said:


> LOL, is there a versatile pedigree that doesn't have Yogi or Whirly in it.
> I guess they're in there for a reason.


They are there for a very good reason - Yogi, Whirly, Expo -- I'd take another in a heartbeat!!! 

Another without Kirby/Peterbuilt/Faera and very little Asterling:
Pedigree: CH Top Hat's First Tour of Duty JH WC CGC


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## Eowyn (Aug 29, 2013)

K9-Design said:


> They are there for a very good reason - Yogi, Whirly, Expo -- I'd take another in a heartbeat!!!
> 
> Another without Kirby/Peterbuilt/Faera and very little Asterling:
> Pedigree: CH Top Hat's First Tour of Duty JH WC CGC


Who also has a lot of Malagold and Highmark influence


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

CharlieBear80 said:


> Is there a Golden in the US that does not have either Twin-Beau-D's Peterbuilt or Rush Hill's Haagen-Dazs somewhere in their pedigree?


My Jacks doesn't have either.... he does have Aruba (and a lot of other Asterling big names) as well as Teddy. Mardovar and Beaumaris also shows up in there, among others. 

Aruba is there in a lot of lines because she was famous, had famous offspring, and her offspring had famous offspring.... <- And definitely in the 90's while I had my Danny and was looking into breeders and thinking ahead to my next puppy, I wanted a pup who similarly had James behind him. I loved the "look" of dogs from him - their heads especially. 

With Bertie I went with a litter that had different primary influences (including Kirby). And I do absolutely love his look (though I'm hoping his head is still growing!) and working temperament.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Ljilly28 said:


> This is off topic, but I love seeing CH Goldruls Yes I Said Yes I Will Yes For Prism, RN out and about. I wrote 50 page Masters thesis on James Joyce, lol.


Thanks!! She's my heart- so much like her daddy (who's my Hudson) and I too get into Joyce! We just got her CD- going for her WC next.


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## tikiandme (May 16, 2010)

I saw Mary showing James at a show in Florida years ago. I was new to dog shows then, but I knew I was seeing something special. I've never seen anything like it since. I loved the look of James. Watching the two of them in the ring together was like watching a ballet.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Mine all go back to Aruba thru Stormy, Colabaugh's Desert Storm...


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## CharlieBear80 (Oct 13, 2013)

I went back and looked at the pedigrees of some of the dogs I was considering and still didn't see Aruba. Also not sure who Whirly, Yogi or Expo are. I hope I did as good of a job as I thought I did picking out my puppy!


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

CharlieBear80 said:


> I went back and looked at the pedigrees of some of the dogs I was considering and still didn't see Aruba. Also not sure who Whirly, Yogi or Expo are. I hope I did as good of a job as I thought I did picking out my puppy!



Pedigree: Am./Can. CH. Trowsnest Whirlwind UD WC Can CDX WC Am./Can. OS

Pedigree: Am. CH OTCH CT; Can. CH Highmark Mirasol Once A Knight VCD4 UDX3 JH MX MXJ WC VCX OS SDHF OBHF

Pedigree: Am. CH Elysian Sky Hi Dubl Exposure UDT MH ** WCX VCX DDHF OS


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## CharlieBear80 (Oct 13, 2013)

Thanks! Still don't recognize them, but they are are (were) nice looking dogs!


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## KeaColorado (Jan 2, 2013)

CharlieBear80 said:


> I went back and looked at the pedigrees of some of the dogs I was considering and still didn't see Aruba. Also not sure who Whirly, Yogi or Expo are. I hope I did as good of a job as I thought I did picking out my puppy!


Are you looking beyond the five generation pedigree for Aruba? I have to go at least six generations back to find her in Kea's. Aruba and Misty Morn's Sunset are the two biggest contributors to Kea's COI, even though neither one is apparent until the pedigree is searched beyond five generations. 

Sally's Mom, Stormy is Kea's great-great-great grandsire. 

ETA: DanaRuns, that looks like a very nice pedigree. I am more familiar with the dogs on the dam's side as well, so I'm not much help.


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## lhowemt (Jun 28, 2013)

I don't see Aruba in Lila's pedigree, but she shows in her genetic information, you might look there.


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## Laurie (Sep 20, 2009)

Aruba is in Lexx's pedigree. I have to go back about 7 generations to find her. She does not show up in his COI contribution. The two top contributors are Meadowpond River to the Sea and Gold Rush Charlie. 

When I was looking for a puppy, I specifically wanted a Yogi son or grandson. I was lucky to find one in Lexx. I'm already on the hunt for another (for a year or so down the road).


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

lhowemt said:


> I don't see Aruba in Lila's pedigree, but she shows in her genetic information, you might look there.


Lots of Aruba way back there in generations 7+


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Willis son of Chaos just had pups with my girl Lucy's 1/2 sister. Here's her pedigree: Pedigree: Wiseman Oryan Share The Journey RN
Lucy's mom just had pups with Bret deceased son of Kirby. Pedigree: Am Can CH. Golden Pine Dustrax Maverick CDX TDX RE OS CGC Can CD

I think Rush Hill will be the name that everyone will have in their lines within a generation or two. Tonya Struble has had a huge effect on goldens. It is amazing to me how many top goldens she has bred in the last 20 years. I was happy to see her at national WC with a whistle around her neck ready to get her goldens in the field.

When I'm ready to breed Lucy I'm totally stumped on how to pick a boy. So many things to think about.


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## CharlieBear80 (Oct 13, 2013)

Is there a way to look further back than 5 generations on k9Data easily or is it just a matter of clicking on individual dogs to see their pedigree?

After clicking on the link for genetic information, I see that Aruba is the top contributor to CIO in my puppy, along with Sammy, Tristan, Zap, and Ace. I gotta find someone local to me that enjoys talking about this stuff. I made my husband's eyes glaze over last night with my yammering.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

CharlieBear80 said:


> Is there a way to look further back than 5 generations on k9Data easily or is it just a matter of clicking on individual dogs to see their pedigree?
> 
> After clicking on the link for genetic information, I see that Aruba is the top contributor to CIO in my puppy, along with Sammy, Tristan, Zap, and Ace. I gotta find someone local to me that enjoys talking about this stuff. I made my husband's eyes glaze over last night with my yammering.


As far as I know, you have to click each dog to go back farther. That pedigree gets gigantic in just a couple more generations beyond five, if you don't break it up.

I spent a whole day, once, following one of my dogs' pedigree back to Cullam Brass and even farther back to a dog named Cherry and a bitch named N*gger. Pedigree: Poppy (Marjoribanks) It was fascinating, especially noticing that _every_ dog in the fifth generation of the pedigree eventually led back to those same dogs. It inspired me to research the early lines, and I found it enthralling.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

> I see that Aruba is the top contributor to CIO in my puppy, along with Sammy, Tristan, Zap, and Ace.


Tristan was one of my favorite dogs, and one of the reasons I chose Gunner for Lush.


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## lhowemt (Jun 28, 2013)

Laurie said:


> The two top contributors are Meadowpond River to the Sea and Gold Rush Charlie.


River! I love River. He was Hazel's sire and Lila's grand sire. I wish someone would breed to him again. I spoke with Terry when looking for Pearl and there has been no activity. But then, Hazel died of hemangio at 8. We choose Hazel because we knew another River son-sweet sweet dog. But he got lymphoma at 9. Fortunately he is doing well although after some intensive cancer treatment on our first one I will never put a dog through that again. 

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## CharlieBear80 (Oct 13, 2013)

DanaRuns said:


> I spent a whole day, once, following one of my dogs' pedigree back to Cullam Brass and even farther back to a dog named Cherry and a bitch named N*gger. Pedigree: Poppy (Marjoribanks) It was fascinating, especially noticing that _every_ dog in the fifth generation of the pedigree eventually led back to those same dogs. It inspired me to research the early lines, and I found it enthralling.


Oh wow. I honestly do not know a whole lot about the evolution of the breed, but I find this stuff really fascinating. I guess since GRs are a relatively new breed it's not too hard to come up with decent historical info on them either.


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## Davidrob2 (Dec 10, 2012)

DanaRuns said:


> I spent a whole day, once, following one of my dogs' pedigree back to Cullam Brass and even farther back to a dog named Cherry and a bitch named N*gger. Pedigree: Poppy (Marjoribanks) It was fascinating, especially noticing that _every_ dog in the fifth generation of the pedigree eventually led back to those same dogs. It inspired me to research the early lines, and I found it enthralling.


I've done the same with Harry's pedigree. Got back to Zeus (Ilchester), Braes (Tweedmouth's) and Noisy (Wareham) among others. Incredibly interesting -- but I am a fan of genealogy as well. Personally, I think Harry takes after his distant ancestor Noisy.


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## Laurie (Sep 20, 2009)

lhowemt said:


> River! I love River. He was Hazel's sire and Lila's grand sire. I wish someone would breed to him again. I spoke with Terry when looking for Pearl and there has been no activity. But then, Hazel died of hemangio at 8. We choose Hazel because we knew another River son-sweet sweet dog. But he got lymphoma at 9. Fortunately he is doing well although after some intensive cancer treatment on our first one I will never put a dog through that again.
> 
> Sent from Petguide.com Free App


I love River as well!! Lexx is actually doubled up on River. He's his great grandsire on both his sire and dam's side. When I first starting paying attention to pedigrees there were many dogs I liked. I was fortunate enough to get them with Lexx. Lexx's sire's breeder has bred a couple of girls to River so she has a lot of River in her pedigrees.


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## CharlieBear80 (Oct 13, 2013)

DanaRuns said:


> I spent a whole day, once, following one of my dogs' pedigree back to Cullam Brass and even farther back to a dog named Cherry and a bitch named N*gger. Pedigree: Poppy (Marjoribanks) It was fascinating, especially noticing that _every_ dog in the fifth generation of the pedigree eventually led back to those same dogs. It inspired me to research the early lines, and I found it enthralling.


Looks like I can trace my puppy back to those same dogs as well. :yes:


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## Goldngirl01 (Oct 17, 2013)

*pedigrees...*

Many of the dogs/bitches that are being discussed were lovely, but were very lacking in the clearance dept. Anyone can breed pretty dogs, but to breed solid clearances generation after generation, one must know pedigrees, as well as what these pedigrees produced. Aruba didn't have a hip clearance & Teddy's sire didn't as well. They were both bred alot & very tightly, thus inbreeding these problems into their lines. In my opinion, if a dog doesn't have a good temperament, solid clearances & good longevity, then they are not in my breeding program. Part of the problem with our Breed today, is that "winning" is the only thing that many breeders are thinking about.. JMO


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Chris.... but isn't that the case with any golden you breed now? Or use frozen for breeding? They were missing many of the clearances that now are required.... right?

*** why does Aruba have "normal" for her hips?


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## Goldngirl01 (Oct 17, 2013)

*Aruba*

Sorry when I think of Aruba, I think of the original one (her dam was missing a hip clearance)


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## Goldngirl01 (Oct 17, 2013)

*missing clearances*

it was common knowledge that both dogs mentioned were dysplastic..not just missing clearances.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

This is just a general caution that many times if specific dogs get mentioned perjuratively, the breeder is contacted and reads it. We've had some really angry breeders over the years track down specific posters. 

That doesnt mean you shouldnt do it when you know your facts and have conviction it is important info to share, but just to say this forum is very public in the wider world of breeders.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

To whomever wrote dysplastic on k9 data regarding Astering Aruba's dam, that is a big no no unless you personally owned the dog. I would rather have a dysplastic dog in my dogs' pedigrees that produced many clears and had clear siblings than a good that has dysplastic siblings. In regards to k9 data if clearances or failures are not verifiable in a public database, non owners can not post.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I agree. From my understanding when the clearance is not verifiable that is a quick way to get the dog locked on k9data. 


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Yes, I suspect she will be locked. The comment was added yesterday.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I saw that too and noticed the curious timing in the change history....


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## CharlieBear80 (Oct 13, 2013)

Do you mean to tell me that K9Data is like Wikipedia in that anyone can go in and edit information on any dog they choose?

I also thought that clearances were a relatively new thing and that a dog, like Aruba (or her dam, which appears to be the Aruba Chris was referring to), might not have had them simply because they weren't commonly done?


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## CharlieBear80 (Oct 13, 2013)

Never mind, I didn't realize you can view change history of the dog. I see that her hip status was changed yesterday. That is curious.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

CharlieBear80 said:


> Do you mean to tell me that K9Data is like Wikipedia in that anyone can go in and edit information on any dog they choose?


Yes, anyone can edit information unless a dog is locked, but those changes recorded permanently under "change history". There have been many hurt feelings, disputes, and all kinds of issues over various things like a cause of death being entered by a novice with no ill intentions for a famous dog he did not own, OFA clearances/prelims being added/tranfered over to k9data without the owner's consent, or a well -known stud dog passing away but the entry being conspiciously empty etc a year later while his titles have been updated. People have all sorts of viewpoints on if it is appropriate to add anything factual for any dog or if only the owner or breeder really should do it.


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## CharlieBear80 (Oct 13, 2013)

Interesting ethical grey area.


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## Eowyn (Aug 29, 2013)

Goldngirl01 said:


> Many of the dogs/bitches that are being discussed were lovely, but were very lacking in the clearance dept. Anyone can breed pretty dogs, but to breed solid clearances generation after generation, one must know pedigrees, as well as what these pedigrees produced. Aruba didn't have a hip clearance & Teddy's sire didn't as well. They were both bred alot & very tightly, thus inbreeding these problems into their lines. In my opinion, if a dog doesn't have a good temperament, solid clearances & good longevity, then they are not in my breeding program. Part of the problem with our Breed today, is that "winning" is the only thing that many breeders are thinking about.. JMO


I am very curious which/what kennel/line is yours?


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I believe Goldngirl01 is Eldorado, a well known and well repected kennel. Yes, you can edit dogs on k9 data... I have put dogs up for friends of mine. But if you edit, in regards to clearances, you need to make sure the clearances are publically verifiable or you have the owner's permission. DOD and COD are generally only put up by owners or breeders of the dogs. And you can not say a clearance is OFA or CERF unless you sent it in and it is published on the websites.


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## Eowyn (Aug 29, 2013)

Sally's Mom said:


> I believe Goldngirl01 is Eldorado, a well known and well repected kennel.


Ok. I am quite familiar with Eldorado and their reputation. She has an outstanding breeding program and I especially admire London (Ch Kairing's Limited First Edition CD RE). I knew she bred and she has seemed to be quite knowledgeable, but didn't know she was Eldorado.


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## cgriffin (Nov 30, 2011)

Wow, interesting about the k9 data website, I did not know that people other than the breeder or owner could change the history. 
So, if somebody puts down all the clearances, somebody else goes in and puts down "unknown", the clearance was not verifiable? Interesting! Could this be explained as the owner/breeder did not sent the clearance in to OFA or Cerf? 

I would think they harm their own reputation by not sending the clearances in. But then again, how many people know about checking k9 data and the 'view history' ? On the other hand, what business is it of another person to change a dog's history, what makes them qualified to do so? 

I just learned something. I checked Toby's k9 data 'view history' and I had made a typo in his cause of death, somebody corrected it.

I think this is a very faulty system when just anybody can change history on a dog, it just is not right.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

cgriffin said:


> I think this is a very faulty system when just anybody can change history on a dog, it just is not right.


I think generally speaking... the reason why it is set up the way it is, is because sometimes you do have to put dogs into the system to complete a pedigree. A good example is our Charmy's parents were not on K9data. I had to enter a lot of names in going off his paper pedigree just to get that completed.

You can't always ask somebody's permission to enter their dog. 

Where I get sensitive is where you have yahoos like that "Lisetta James" entering dysplastic onto a dog's pedigree based on word of mouth on an online forum. 

I hope somebody has contacted K9Data admins and this is corrected, but you simply can't enter unverified information onto the database. Please. The only people who should be entering cause of death, or lack of clearances, etc... should be the owners of the dog or somebody who has permission to enter that information.

I do somewhat wish that there was some way that any changes to the database on a dog you own would trigger an email notice to you.


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## cgriffin (Nov 30, 2011)

Oh, I agree. It stumped me when I read about this happening, that is why I decided to check my own dog's entry and 'view change history'.

I do think that if admin changes something for whatever reason they do need to contact the owner/breeder first to get things straightened out as in missing clearances etc. And ONLY Admin is allowed to go in and change if permission is given by the owner/breeder.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

There is an admin who checks k9 data... I have added CERF ages and CERF years to k9 data pedigrees. All verifiable on line.. A local breeder often does not update them... I also corrected one of her pedigrees because, she put in the name for her bitch that was close to a well bred famous bitch and hers was not that bitch, but showed up on k9 data as having a pedigree better than she had... And I, like others have put up pedigrees from greeders, so,that they are out there in public...for all to see.. I only put up DOD and COD for my own, even if I know those facts about other dogs.


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## Eowyn (Aug 29, 2013)

cgriffin said:


> I think this is a very faulty system when just anybody can change history on a dog, it just is not right.


The problem is that it won't being maintained and kept up if it has to be the breeders/owners who enter the info. I personally have added several hundred goldens (mostly that were in my dogs pedigree's) and added their clearances (if they passed of course). Many breeders/owners never enter their dogs info, often someone else comes along and adds them to fill in their dogs pedigree. You do have to have an account with k9data and I believe you have to give them your address (at least I did), so that helps.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I had a cool experience adding what I remembered about a childhood golden, and then some people with amazing memories and historical memories for goldens filled it in over time. It was fun watching the pedigree take shape from different people helping it along.


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## Eowyn (Aug 29, 2013)

cgriffin said:


> I just learned something. I checked Toby's k9 data 'view history' and I had made a typo in his cause of death, somebody corrected it.


Lesley Albin is an administrator for k9data, I believe she changed it. I also believe she helps look over any changes made to a dogs pedigree, although I am not sure.


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## Kylie (Feb 16, 2013)

Sally's Mom said:


> To whomever wrote dysplastic on k9 data regarding Astering Aruba's dam, that is a big no no unless you personally owned the dog. I would rather have a dysplastic dog in my dogs' pedigrees that produced many clears and had clear siblings than a good that has dysplastic siblings. In regards to k9 data if clearances or failures are not verifiable in a public database, non owners can not post.


But shouldn't people have a right to know that? What about the breeders who are unknowingly line breeding on her compounding problems who wouldn't do so if they knew? What about the public who is buying puppies who would want to know that? Shouldn't people who are paying $1200+ for a puppy that they believe comes from a healthy line have a right to know that? Isn't that what makes partly a breeder responsible (not keeping things like that in the dark)? This is all from a newbie perspective.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Kylie said:


> But shouldn't people have a right to know that?


What if somebody posted something false or hearsay on your dog's pedigree?


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## Kylie (Feb 16, 2013)

Megora said:


> What if somebody posted something false or hearsay on your dog's pedigree?


Well I would be furious! But is it actually false? Or shall I rephrase if they knew for sure it wasn't false then would it be ok?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Kylie said:


> Well I would be furious! But is it actually false? Or shall I rephrase if they knew for sure it wasn't false then would it be ok?


Assuming that the person who made the change yesterday was only doing so because somebody said Aruba was dysplastic on this forum (I think it is obvious based on the timing).... they did not have actual knowledge that it was true or false. They made the change based on hearsay.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

If k9 data were more like the Kennel Club and the Swedish Kennel Club, the answer might be yes. In those countries the kennel clubs over see pedigrees and clearances. In fact in the Kennel Club, they have worked out a formula in labs for expected breeding potential. In some of those pedigrees, the recommendation to breed a dysplastic dog might be to do it because it came from multi generations of clear hips both horizontally and vertically. An Excellent with dysplastic parents would then be less attractive for breeding than a dysplastic dog where all siblings, all parents, all parents siblings, etc have clearances... Hip dysplasia, elbow dysplasia are mutlifactorial.. I believe mostly genetic, with environmental influences. No one can come into agreement about many other issues Goldens have like cataracts, PU, SAS. There are definitely familial predispositions to things like hypothyroidism, epilepsy, allergies, etc. So to answer the question, in the ideal world, we would all put up everything good and bad about all of our dogs on k9 data. The reality is most do not put up COD and DOD. Most do not mention cataracts, PU,etc. Most breeders do not put up hip and elbow dysplasia info on their dogs. Soooo when someone does put "dysplastic" on a bitch born the year(1977) I graduated from high school, it sticks out. That bitch happens to be the great great grandmother of my Cookie who was OFA Good who in turn has a Fair daughter and a Good daughter. All of Cookie's grand kids and great grand kids that have been tested are OFA Good. So am I worried about that bitch born 36 years ago that is way back in my pedigree? The answer is no. 

There used to be an open golden registry where you could only enter your dogs if you agreed to enter all the dogs that you owned. And you had to put the good and the bad. It is now defunct.

Gaylans Goldens and Star Crowned are the only breeders I know that put everything up, the good and the bad...


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Now when you submit to OFA , you can allow them to print info that is not passing to the OFA website. So if you found it there, it would be okay to post to k9 data..


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## Kylie (Feb 16, 2013)

Sally's Mom said:


> Now when you submit to OFA , you can allow them to print info that is not passing to the OFA website. So if you found it there, it would be okay to post to k9 data..


So it would be ok to put say Dusty Road Bunny (Orthopedic Foundation for Animals) in k9data and post that he was dyspeptic since it is listed in OFA? But it isn't ok to post on Aruba's k9data (assuming that the person knew for sure) that she was dysplastic since it isn't open on OFA?


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## Kylie (Feb 16, 2013)

Megora said:


> Assuming that the person who made the change yesterday was only doing so because somebody said Aruba was dysplastic on this forum (I think it is obvious based on the timing).... they did not have actual knowledge that it was true or false. They made the change based on hearsay.


But if they knew for sure she was dysplastic (like her owner actually told them, as opposed to them just seeing a post on here) would it be ok is my question. (although I may not have worded it to sound that way so if so I apologize).


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Kylie said:


> But if they knew for sure she was dysplastic (like her owner actually told them, as opposed to them just seeing a post on here) would it be ok is my question. (although I may not have worded it to sound that way so if so I apologize).


I believe that if you post something negative on K9data, you must have permission to do so.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

K9 data is very clear that you have to have verifiable proof of what you post. Otherwise as Kate has said it is hearsay. I know many COD and DOD of dogs listed on k9 data. It is not my story to put in writing. And if you have a cardiac clearance signed on an OFA form, but you never sent it to OFA, it is not an OFA cardiac clearance. So if you put it on K9 data, it will be corrected from OFA to unknown. Same is true for CERF. If you did not send the form to CERF, it isn't CERF and it will be corrected. I know a lot about many dogs, just because I know something and it is true, it is not my business to post.... Unless I can find it on OFA or CERF...


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Kylie said:


> So it would be ok to put say Dusty Road Bunny (Orthopedic Foundation for Animals) in k9data and post that he was dyspeptic since it is listed in OFA? But it isn't ok to post on Aruba's k9data (assuming that the person knew for sure) that she was dysplastic since it isn't open on OFA?


Yes, it would be ok to,post that. But hopefully it is not dyspeptic...


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## Kylie (Feb 16, 2013)

Sally's Mom said:


> Yes, it would be ok to,post that. But hopefully it is not dyspeptic...


Whoops, sorry! Autocorrect at it's best...


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## MarieP (Aug 21, 2011)

Kylie said:


> But shouldn't people have a right to know that? What about the breeders who are unknowingly line breeding on her compounding problems who wouldn't do so if they knew? What about the public who is buying puppies who would want to know that? Shouldn't people who are paying $1200+ for a puppy that they believe comes from a healthy line have a right to know that? Isn't that what makes partly a breeder responsible (not keeping things like that in the dark)? This is all from a newbie perspective.


If a breeder is line breeding on a dog, they SHOULD know. They shouldn't need to look on k9data for that info. IMHO, it is the breeders responsibility to know these things about the dogs in their pedigrees. Breeders should be aware of the weaknesses in their lines and their breedings. They should be able to report this to the buyers. 

Now if it were up to me, all dogs, even those who go to pet homes, would get clearances and all that info would be on OFA or CERF, even if they fail. That would give everyone a lot more information. But since this doesn't happen, it is up to the breeder to dig out that information on dogs they are breeding and the dogs behind these dogs. 

Also, just as an after thought related to my personal experience.... reported clearances are not the end all, be all. According to OFA, my pup has stage I DJD in one elbow, and the other is normal. Before surgery, he was terribly lame, and actually had FCP on both sides. Much worse that what would show up if you just looked at OFA.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Some information about goldens can be like the telephone game: it starts out true, but then gets repeated a little bit wrong until it is offbase. 

The issue is if the forum poster/k9 data changer has genuine first hand facts or is repeating untrue gossip, or something in a grey area. 

Since Mary is so kind and relatable, I simply asked her about this. She says that Aruba's mother was placed in a pet home after that one litter was weaned on a passing prelim of fair, bc she was oversized for the show ring.( I bet if they had know Aruba would be, well Aruba, they would have held onto her.)

Anyway, Mary says Aruba's hip production rate over time has come clear as beyond reproach. 

Aruba had a hip production record of 36 kids: 
5 OFA Excellent
27 OFA Good
3 OFA Fair
1 Borderline

So hopefully the poster knows something way more direct that Aruba's own owner in order to justify that post.

We lost 3 very experienced breeders last winter over specific dogs being spoken about by rumor and gossip. On the flipside, sharing the real facts is good for everyone. It comes down going to the source respectfully and asking the breeder or owner for the information.


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## MarieP (Aug 21, 2011)

Ljilly28 said:


> On the flipside, sharing the real facts is good for everyone. It comes down going to the source respectfully and asking the breeder or owner for the information.


That's what I was trying to say. Thanks for saying it so well


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## hvgoldens4 (Nov 25, 2009)

CharlieBear80 said:


> Is there a Golden in the US that does not have either Twin-Beau-D's Peterbuilt or Rush Hill's Haagen-Dazs somewhere in their pedigree?



Yes, there are actually plenty of them that have neither Peter or Kirby in their pedigrees and I own and have bred quite a few of them.


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## hvgoldens4 (Nov 25, 2009)

Goldngirl01 said:


> Many of the dogs/bitches that are being discussed were lovely, but were very lacking in the clearance dept. Anyone can breed pretty dogs, but to breed solid clearances generation after generation, one must know pedigrees, as well as what these pedigrees produced. Aruba didn't have a hip clearance & Teddy's sire didn't as well. They were both bred alot & very tightly, thus inbreeding these problems into their lines. In my opinion, if a dog doesn't have a good temperament, solid clearances & good longevity, then they are not in my breeding program. Part of the problem with our Breed today, is that "winning" is the only thing that many breeders are thinking about.. JMO


 
There is a lot more information about dogs than what is on searchable online databases. When you are going back to Aruba and many dogs of that time, hips and eyes were the only clearances being done and they were still something that was pretty new to a lot of breeders. There are also a lot of those early dogs who do have clearances but they do not show up on the OFA database. Computers were not something being used and so everything was being hand done by people. Records have been lost but that doesn't mean that clearances haven't been done. Way back when, people actually had to pick up the phone or speak to a breeder about their dogs. That was NOT a bad thing. A database does not give the whole picture but the breeder can.

It is very easy to sit and look at things and only see black and white. However, if every breeder only ever saw things as black and white, none of us would have goldens in our living rooms. To go back and criticize a breeder for something that was done 20 plus years ago serves absolutely no purpose. 

When talking about hip indexes and hip dysplasia, goldens actually have less of an issue there than many large breed dogs and when looking at statistics, the rate of HD and DJD has gone down quite a bit because breeders do use screening tools and have been for many generations.

You will hear many breeders who have been in the breed for 20 plus years say that you "cant throw the baby out with the bath water" and this is absolutely true. There is NO perfect dog and there never will be one. Dogs that pass clearances can have terrible temperaments or very bad conformation flaws.

I am also not sure about whom you are speaking about when you say breeders breed to win, but I can tell you that personally, that could not be further from the truth. I keep in contact with our pet homes and all the homes who own our dogs. I want to know information about all the dogs that we breed and I can't have that if I don't have information about the dogs who are in pet homes, as most of our puppies are placed as family companions. The overall health, longevity, temperaments and structure are all important to me. I can also assure you that I am not alone in my breeding practices.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

hvgoldens4 said:


> There is a lot more information about dogs than what is on searchable online databases.


Even though the internet is such a great resource for keeping abreast of litters from all over the country and exchanging ideas and information on forums and lists, it increases the need to make face to face contact, to sit and talk with experienced elders in the breed, to go out and meet the parenst of the puppies you buy or the stud dogs to whom you breed. I have surely learned this sometimes the hard way and sometimes in the nicests way. Social media is a great way to make initial contacts and check some statistics that might rule out dogs or breedings, but actually looking people in the eye and listening, actually putting hands on dogs and playing with them, seeing them work, show, relax, interact. .. that is so important.


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## lhowemt (Jun 28, 2013)

This has turned into a really interesting thread about genetics. Thanks everyone!

Sent from Petguide.com Free App


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## Eowyn (Aug 29, 2013)

I finally had enough and removed the Dysplastic remark from k9data (although I think it was still logged in to my mom's account when I did it). It can't be verified, and shouldn't have been posted publicly without being verified.


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## CharlieBear80 (Oct 13, 2013)

I wonder if that will confuse anyone that goes back to look at the change history, although I bet most people don't bother?


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## Eowyn (Aug 29, 2013)

CharlieBear80 said:


> I wonder if that will confuse anyone that goes back to look at the change history, although I bet most people don't bother?


Most will never even think about it.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Actually, I often look at the change history, especially if the dog is locked by administrators.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Sally's Mom said:


> Actually, I often look at the change history, especially if the dog is locked by administrators.


I do too.... 

It's one thing when people add pictures (I wish MORE people would add pictures as they find them to K9data + put pictures in for their own dogs!), titles, honorifics, OFA links, etc...

It's another thing when you have random people (meaning people who do not have their own dogs entered in K9Data, if they have dogs - I'm assuming people are not setting up fake accounts on K9data to enter negative stuff in, right?!) putting cause of death or negative condition (dysplasia, for example) information in.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

The only time I've ever had anything weird happen -- I looked at Fisher's k9data page one day and Leslie Albin had changed his eye clearance to "CERF GR-123456 Breeders Options A1, D3" --- whereas before I had just the CERF # and date of last exam. (I just subbed numbers here, I can't remember the exact number). Anyways nobody ever contacted me, I never had any discussions with anyone regarding his CERF number, no issues with K9data, anyone can see his CERF history on OFA's database so it's certainly no secret, and while I am acquaintances with Leslie, she doesn't really know my dogs or have anything related to my dogs or have any particular reason to go in and change my dog's clearance info. What I had was certainly accurate, up to date, and an acceptable way to list it. I have NO idea why it was done. Just made me very suspicious that someone out there is so concerned with my dog's clearances they have to go behind my back and have an admin fix something? Just because I changed it back, and nothing more ever came of it. VERY strange!!!!


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I have noticed that she puts in breeder options... I agree, it is all there on OFA and it is perfectly acceptable to list the number, the year, and the age when done. If someone wants to know if there are breeder options, they can check OFA.


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## CharlieBear80 (Oct 13, 2013)

Perhaps someone felt that listing it both places just makes it easier?


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## hvgoldens4 (Nov 25, 2009)

K9-Design said:


> The only time I've ever had anything weird happen -- I looked at Fisher's k9data page one day and Leslie Albin had changed his eye clearance to "CERF GR-123456 Breeders Options A1, D3" --- whereas before I had just the CERF # and date of last exam. (I just subbed numbers here, I can't remember the exact number). Anyways nobody ever contacted me, I never had any discussions with anyone regarding his CERF number, no issues with K9data, anyone can see his CERF history on OFA's database so it's certainly no secret, and while I am acquaintances with Leslie, she doesn't really know my dogs or have anything related to my dogs or have any particular reason to go in and change my dog's clearance info. What I had was certainly accurate, up to date, and an acceptable way to list it. I have NO idea why it was done. Just made me very suspicious that someone out there is so concerned with my dog's clearances they have to go behind my back and have an admin fix something? Just because I changed it back, and nothing more ever came of it. VERY strange!!!!



Many times, when Leslie has some time, she will update clearance information on K9data along with titles, as well. I have seen this on other dogs as well.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

hvgoldens4 said:


> Many times, when Leslie has some time, she will update clearance information on K9data along with titles, as well. I have seen this on other dogs as well.


Yeah I can understand that but then I looked at Fisher's siblings and offspring who have various breeders options and none of them were fixed. I just found it very suspicious. (Especially since what breeders options are there tend to change with every new CERF exam.......:crazy
I have fixed titles before but usually just with dogs I know personally so if their owner questions it I can explain it.


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## Eowyn (Aug 29, 2013)

As of 12/3/2013 Aruba has been locked by the administrators. I was pretty sure that was going to happen.


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## CharlieBear80 (Oct 13, 2013)

So only admins can change the info now?


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## Eowyn (Aug 29, 2013)

CharlieBear80 said:


> So only admins can change the info now?


Yes. I would imagine if you really wanted something changed you could contact the admins asking them to change it, but ultimately it would be up to them whether or not it would go in.


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