# I am desperate for help with Oliver!



## crisds (Jan 10, 2011)

Oliver is my beautiful 2 year old golden. At home he is loving and fairly obedient. When I or my son (14yrs) walk him, he turns into a completely different dog. If he pulls to go after something or wants to go in a certain direction and we do not let him, he starts to attack us. He has ripped several jackets and bruised my arms on several occasions. We hired Bark Busters to help us and were told that Oliver thinks that he is the leader of our pack and therefore wants to dictate what we do and when we don't listen he is letting us know. Now I understand all that, as we do spoil him a lot (he's just so good looking), but I have tried everything, including a muzzle (he will go after other dogs also) I just don't know what to do. We don't want to give up on him, but it is not enjoyable to walk him and we fear running into other dogs. Is this normal behavior for Goldens? Has anyone ever had these problems? If so, how can I fix my dog? 
I should also mention that recently a dog camp that we used while we were away has refused to take him back because he snarls and nips at other dogs and the workers if he doesn't get his way.


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

Welcome to the forum! I think you'll find a lot of support here.

May I ask a couple of questions to give his behaviour some context?

-when did this behaviour start?
-has he been to obedience training other than Bark Busters?
-What were his parents like? Was there any concern with their behaviour? Did you get him as a puppy or as an adult? Rescue? 
-what is he like around other dogs when you're with him?

My first advice would be to find a different trainer or a behaviourist. Bark Busters has somewhat of a shotty reputation for using some questionable methods...I'm sure someone from the Toronto area will be around shortly to suggest some professionals you can work with


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

I too would suggest finding a better trainer/behaviorist. Hopefully someone here would know of someone. This behavior while not typical of a Golden is not uncommon in "spoiled" dogs of any breed. Have you discussed this with his breeder?


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## C's Mom (Dec 7, 2009)

Welcome to the forum. Have you tried a Halti or Gentle Leader?


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## crisds (Jan 10, 2011)

Thank you for the replies. Some background info:
We did get him as a puppy although not through a breeder. I bought Oliver for my husband 2 Christmas's ago and I never owning a dog before found the puppies on Kijiji and well...the rest is history. So I have no history on his parents.
The behavior has been there for a long time, I think the first time that he attacked me was maybe a year ago. 

For awhile he was good and we were able to walk him without a leash and for the most part he was fine with other dogs. My son however has always had trouble controlling him.

My husband doesn' t have any trouble walking him. If he tries to get out of hand with him, my husband can usually stop it pretty quickly. 

We have not had any other training except for puppy school at Pet Smart when we first got him. I was not aware that Bark Busters was no good. I would love any suggestions. 

Basically we love this dog so much, but it has really become hard for us to manage him on walks and we would like to be able to socialize him.


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## crisds (Jan 10, 2011)

Oh and yes we have a gentle leader. Helps with the pulling, but he still bites when he's angry.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Well the fact that your husband can control him is a good sign. I really think you need to find a good trainer to work with. It will be "tough love" for a while but it can work out. And by "tough love" I do not mean mistreating the dog, it has more with you and your son not giving in and being "soft" on him.


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

I've sent a message to two members from Toronto who might be able to suggest someone.


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## Claire's Friend (Feb 26, 2007)

Sorry if I missed this, is he neutered?


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## crisds (Jan 10, 2011)

Yes he is neutered. 

Thank you for all the help


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## Katie and Paddy's Mum (Mar 31, 2010)

jackie_hubert said:


> I've sent a message to two members from Toronto who might be able to suggest someone.


Thanks for the heads up, Jackie 

I am sorry you're having so much trouble with Oliver. Before consulting with a behaviourist, have you ruled out any underlying medical conditions like hypothyroidism. A thyroid imbalance can affect the personality of our golden companions, and even though he is only 2, he may still suffer from this condition. Especially since you do not know his pedigree.

Provided that he gets a clean bill of health, I have heard really good things from other forum members as well as other dog people in my neighbourhood about the services offered at Who's Walking Who? 

Their web address is: Welcome to Who's Walking Who! 

Fortunately, I have not had the occasion to use a behaviourist, but I know that when I was searching for agility classes for Katie this facility came highly recommended. Also, since then, two people in my neighbourhood have had occasion to mention their services to me. They might be worth calling. 

My parents went with Bark Busters, too. I think it really helped Paddy. But my parents are totally inconsistent in the way in which they treat Paddy. Some days they follow their recommendations, and other days they don't. Perhaps you would all benefit from going for a "pack" outing with your husband to see what he does to control Oliver. 

Sorry I can't be of more help. But I would definitely start with ruling out any underlying medical issues and then explore the behaviourist route.

Best of luck, and let us know how things work out!

Kim


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## Katie and Paddy's Mum (Mar 31, 2010)

jackie_hubert said:


> I've sent a message to two members from Toronto who might be able to suggest someone.


Thanks for the heads up, Jackie 

I am sorry you're having so much trouble with Oliver. Before consulting with a behaviourist, have you ruled out any underlying medical conditions like hypothyroidism. A thyroid imbalance can affect the personality of our golden companions, and even though he is only 2, he may still suffer from this condition. Especially since you do not know his pedigree.

Provided that he gets a clean bill of health, I have heard really good things from other forum members as well as other dog people in my neighbourhood about the services offered at Who's Walking Who? 

Their web address is: Welcome to Who's Walking Who! 

Fortunately, I have not had the occasion to use a behaviourist, but I know that when I was searching for agility classes for Katie this facility came highly recommended. Also, since then, two people in my neighbourhood have had occasion to mention their services to me. They might be worth calling. 

My parents went with Bark Busters, too. I think it really helped Paddy. But my parents are totally inconsistent in the way in which they treat Paddy. Some days they follow their recommendations, and other days they don't. Perhaps you would all benefit from going for a "pack" outing with your husband to see what he does to control Oliver. 

Sorry I can't be of more help. But I would definitely start with ruling out any underlying medical issues and then explore the behaviourist route.

Best of luck, and let us know how things work out!

Kim


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

If you think his behaviour is medically related I would see a veterinary behaviourist - North Toronto Animal Clinic.


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## GoldenOwner12 (Jun 18, 2008)

May i surguest you try NILIF (nothing in life is free) training it may help. I _hope you get his problems sorted out._


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## crisds (Jan 10, 2011)

Thanks for all the input. I will absolutely look into all recommendations. I will keep you posted!


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## esSJay (Apr 13, 2009)

Thanks for the PM Jackie.

I don't know any behaviourists in the area but 2 dog training schools that I know of are: TAMSU (up near Alliston if you don't mind a drive), and my best friend's mom works at Campaign Dog Academy out west in Georgetown. I'm not sure that they themselves will be able to help, but it may be worth giving them a call - my guess would be that they know people that could help you and Oliver out!

I'm glad that you are determined to help him and not give up on him! I can only imagine how stressful and frustrating it is for your family but I'm sure that once you find the right help it will all be worth it in the end! 

Oh - and welcome to the forum! :wavey:


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## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

I always feel like the outsider in these threads because I'm far more inclined to think that the owner is better able to address and assess most behavioural issues then anybody else. Dogs act differently around different people whereas you see the issues first hand. I was babysitting a "devilish Schipperkee" and his issues at my house were VASTLY diminished then when he was in comfortable surroundings. At my house he was submissive and very attentive... at his he snapped at other dogs and the owner and would not listen. When I went to their house he again became submissive and attentive like a whole different dog.
__________

I am going to say that if this is an issue your husband can rectify without much difficulty then it is, in my opinion, a respect issue. 

- Being firm in your commands and not being fearful of your own dog are two things that are mandatory in ownership. When you're scared you appear weak and give weak commands / corrections. If you're weak there's a power vaccuum that has to be filled and he WILL fill it. 

- I am not there but I doubt he is biting with the intent you're assuming. What I find more commonly is the dog becomes frustrated and grabs at the next best thing to him. Harley used to do this exact thing, he wants to go play with another dog I say no, he would turn around and grab at my arms / legs. Is he trying to hurt me? No. He's taking out frustrations on me... how did I correct it? I taught him basic obedience and stopped him from playing rough. Rough play, can get VERY rough and even Harley who had obedience training has ripped coats / jackets. 

- How much exercise is he getting in a day? Obviously if he's causing this big an issue this is going to be a circular problem. He's not getting exercise > Frustrated > Scares you by biting > You don't take him out > he's getting even less exercise > more frustrated..... and so on. Exercise fixes a lot of frustration issues. Also, mentally stimulating exercises such as kong wobbers and what not burns frustration off pretty quickly.

- What does he key on? Harley will key on food.. if he gets rambunctious I'll start doing obedience exercises with him even if we're on a walk. Why? Because he knows obedience equals treats, and those are FAR FAR FAR more important to Harley then that dog he wanted to sniff had to offer. Miri, she keys on balls. I hold up a ball and she would abandon a filet mignon. You need something to snap your guy out of his behaviour. A lot of people use clickers if the dog is food oriented and click their clicker to mark good behaviour... but.. it also works to snap dogs out of bad behaviour.

Try working with him when your husband is around if he's able to correct the behaviour.


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## GinnyinPA (Oct 31, 2010)

I'm no expert, but our three year old rescue GR has similar issues. What we were told to do was work on leadership. Since my husband had fewer problems with jumping and biting, (he was obviously alpha in the house) I became Ben's prime caregiver - I feed him and brush him, which is to say, I control the basic resources of food and attention. We were told to feed him after we eat and to work on always going through doors and up/down stairs before him. IOW, let him know that we are the pack leaders, not him. For a short while, on the advice of a trainer, we also used a spray bottle filled with vinegar-water and sprayed him whenever he attacked me. By the second or third time, he stopped jumping and we haven't needed it in weeks. I know a lot of people on the forum disagree with using aversives - but sometimes they work. He'll still get overly excited occasionally and jump up and grab my arm, but it is infrequent and seems to be more easily controlled. I'm not black and blue any more and, better still, I'm not afraid of him. 

Anyhow, as I said, I'm no expert, but I thought I'd let you know that it can get better with help.


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

It's not about leadership, it's about frustration and yoru dog not knowing how to get what he wants. Due to the size of your dog, your son is not old enough to be able to walk the dog on his own. I do a LOT of work with kids and dogs and often we'll have an adult hold the lead while the parent does the training.

Finding good basic training classes is likely going to help, but if you're able to get in with the veterinary behaviorist that Jackie posted, you will save yourself a lot of frustration. I teach reactive dog classes and about half of the dogs in the class are ALSO seeing a vet behaviorist to address the dog's anxiety and then we're able to make more progress, much faster than when the dog was just in class.

I would NOT use punishment (yelling, collar pulls, spraying, throwing things, etc), esp without consulting a veterinary behavoirist. As you have a child in the home, you put him at risk for injury if your dog were to redirect with an increased level compared to what he's doing now. 

Plus, we want your dog to feel safe and confident, not frustrated and anxious. Using/attempting to use punishment has the potential to increase frustration, anxiety, and aggression, and you don't want any of those to increase!


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## Braccarius (Sep 8, 2008)

RedDogs said:


> It's not about leadership, it's about frustration and your dog not knowing how to get what he wants. Due to the size of your dog, your son is not old enough to be able to walk the dog on his own. I do a LOT of work with kids and dogs and often we'll have an adult hold the lead while the parent does the training.


I do agree that this is likely a frustration issue. However, he should not redirect by biting at the next closest thing to him especially when its his owners. That is a sign of disrespect for the individual he is redirecting on and would indicate to me a "weaker" owner / leader. When Harley gets frustrated now I can tell he is "weighing his options" when he turns to look at me. I can almost tell he's thinking "If I grab his jacket and pull....." 

Your best remedy is going to be obedience training. He'll develop more respect for you and your commands... and I doubt anybody will argue that.


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