# Goldengirls Kennel



## Denali and Gretzky's Mom

I don't know anything about them, but good luck! There are lots of breeders in Colorado that are wonderful, so I hear!


----------



## Emma&Tilly

Hmmmm...the very fact they proudly state they breed 'white' and 'English creme retrievers' (I don't even know how to put in the accent they used above the 'e') would have me running the other way. Any breeder with a ounce of credibility would certainly not be advertising their puppies in that way...I, personally, would keep looking...

They say they are doing the relevant health checks which is good...but I personally wouldn't get a puppy from them.


----------



## Pointgold

RUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Any "breeder" who refers to their dogs as CH white Golden Retrievers, and doesn't actually SHOW them to a championship, would be one to avoid.

:doh:


----------



## PeanutsMom

If this is true than thats good right?

"Our adult dogs have been tested for eyes, heart, hips, elbows, thyroid and now doing Patellar luxation! Our puppies are all born in the house and stay with us for 4-5 weeks in the house before being moved to a larger area where they can run and play."

I'm trying to pay more attention in these threads so bear with me.


----------



## Emma&Tilly

...they also seem proud that some of their dogs weigh in at 95lb...20lb over the golden retriever standard according to the AKC...not great is it!


----------



## mdoats

Well, they're not cranking out litter after litter, and they do provide health clearances. Both good things. I don't like the fact that the sire is 95 pounds and looks quite overweight in some of the photos. I think a breeder should be able to better control the weight of their dogs.


----------



## DreamsOfGold

From what I understand they do every clearance there is but I don't see that they do anything other than CGC. I agree the male is large but the puppies on the site are beautiful. What other kennels would you recommend in Colorado or between Iowa and Colorado?


----------



## ragtym

There are a few really good breeders in Colorado:

Elysian Golden Retrievers - Jean von Barby - don't have her contact information but Mile High Golden Retriever Club might (web addy below). She owns the bitch that went Best of Opposite Sex at the GRCA National in 2006 from the hunting bitch class. Beautiful dogs, very knowledgeable lady.

http://relaysgoldens.com
Lauren & Steven Schwartz

http://www.brgoldens.com/index.html
Jamie Beckett

http://www.venturegoldens.com
Tiffany McCrae

I have met Jean and Lauren & Steve and I know them to be reputable, responsible breeders. Although I have never met the owners of the other two kennels, I do know that both of them compete in multiple events with their dogs and as far as I can tell, they do have all clearances on their breeding dogs.

You can also try http://www.mhgrc.com/puppies.html - the Mile High Golden Retriever Clubs puppy referral information page.


----------



## mdoats

DreamsOfGold said:


> ...but the puppies on the site are beautiful.


Aren't ALL golden retriever puppies beautiful?! I don't know that I've ever seen an ugly one!


----------



## Judi

Have you considered adopting a Golden Retriever Rescue?


----------



## DreamsOfGold

Yes I have thought of that but I haven't decided yet if I want to show the dog or not and it is actually hard to find a rescue golden in Colorado. By the time you locate one they are already taken which is a good thing.


----------



## Finn's Fan

Not in a snotty way at all, but it is sooooo NOT hard to find a rescue golden in Colorado!!!! Golden Retriever Rescue of the Rockies has about 30 dogs at the moment (not all listed on the website), Freedom Golden Rescue has a few, Retriever Rescue of Colorado has had some lovely dogs recently, and some of the shelters often have purebred goldens (before the rescue organizations pull them or they get adopted). The thing to do is to put your application in, get a home visit and then you'll be set to go when you see a dog that appeals to you. Even better is to meet with the rescue presidents after you've done the paperwork and home visit and tell them what you're looking for (young, male, female, background known, etc.)....that way they can give you a call when a dog comes in that seems to fit your desires. Don't give up on rescuing if you decide to go that route....there are more dogs in need every day!


----------



## coloradofancier

Golden Girls is linked with Double B in Colo. Both have expanded, become USDA license and are warehousing dogs. They can't possibly give the one on one needed and they are giving zip back to the breed in terms of titles. They are piggy-backing off others' titles and breeding for huge profit. Boycott them.


----------



## avincent52

This raises an interesting question, IMHO. Where exactly do we draw the line between a breeder we recommend and one we're wary of?

On the one hand, the Goldengirls dogs do seem to have clearances, and there seems to be at least some rhyme and reason to the breeding and the puppies are seem to be well cared for. It doesn't seem like a puppy mill.

But on the other hand, the breeder seems pretty interested in marketing--english creme, no refundable deposits, yada yada yada. In short, by doing a little homework, you can probably find a better dog/breeder for the same price. (Although, aside from a few dog show pics, there's very little on the websites to differentiate goldengirls from those recommended Colorado breeders.)

The most pointed criticism seems to come back to "but she doesn't show them and they don't have titles." 

Playing devil's advocate, why is that such a big deal if you're looking for a pet quality dog? Sure, showing encourages a breeder to plan his or her breedings carefully. But it also encourages breedings based almost solely on looks. I imagine that there have been plenty of dogs with questionable dispositions and/or potential health issues that have been bred simply because they're gorgeous.

Imagine if only gorgeous people could mate. We'd have a world full of Jessica Simpsons and no Albert Einsteins.

Of course, I know that there are "best of both worlds" breeders out there--I found one--who produce beautiful dogs but are first and foremost concerned about health, temperament and longevity. On the other hand, I imagine that the competitive world of dog shows can bring out the worst impulses in a breeder as well. 

Just food for thought, I hope

allen


----------



## Emma&Tilly

avincent52 said:


> Playing devil's advocate, why is that such a big deal if you're looking for a pet quality dog? Sure, showing encourages a breeder to plan his or her breedings carefully. But it also encourages breedings based almost solely on looks. I imagine that there have been plenty of dogs with questionable dispositions and/or potential health issues that have been bred simply because they're gorgeous.
> 
> Imagine if only gorgeous people could mate. We'd have a world full of Jessica Simpsons and no Albert Einsteins.


I don't have time to add much but (in my limited experience!) I didn't think showing was about the dogs actual physical 'looks' but was about how the dog is put together, their conformation and bone structure. I'm pretty sure the judges don't saunter along going 'ooh handsome' and 'she's pretty' as they place the dogs! Dogs with 'health issues' just would not get placed surely!


----------



## Ljilly28

> Preferably you can come and pick your golden puppy in person, however if you can't we can assist you with selecting a puppy that's right for you online.


They will sell me a pup online without meeting me or interviewing me? I usually agree with Avincent on politics, but this time I have to say, yes, it does seem like a puppy mill- breeding dogs mainly for profit. Allen, just a note that you carefully researched your pet pup and our getting one from several generations of actual,factual champions in case actions speak louder than devil's advocation. . .:wave:



mdoats said:


> Aren't ALL golden retriever puppies beautiful?! I don't know that I've ever seen an ugly one!


I agree with Emma&Tilly. Beautiful is subjective, but healthy/breed standard/Champion are less subjective. The dog has his/her points/majors/championship or it does not. When good breeders work so hard to maintain the standard that keeps dogs proportioned in a healthy way, and actually spend all the careful time,love,&money to _achieve_ the titles they claim for their dogs, it is unethical to refer to one's dogs as CH unless they are. It is like a human claiming a PH'D on their resume if they don't really have one. The phrases like CH "English Creme", accent like on pseudo-french yogurt, are only marketing tools. A 95 lb golden retriever with a white coat is not eligible to be a champion - which is fine as long as it isnt billed that way, and the puppy buyer wants a very oversized pet dog.


----------



## Ljilly28

Pam Hird
SNOWTREE GOLDENS

Colorado
[email protected]


----------



## avincent52

> They will sell me a pup online without meeting me or interviewing me? I usually agree with Avincent on politics, but this time I have to say, yes, it does seem like a puppy mill- breeding dogs mainly for profit. Allen, just a note that you carefully researched your pet pup and our getting one from several generations of actual,factual champions in case actions speak louder than devil's advocation. . .


I know the personal is political, but is this really politics?

I said doesn't _seem_ like a puppy mill. I know only what I got from a quick perusal of the website. 

Not to get all existential, but what's a puppy mill? I guess I think of a puppy mill as a place where dogs are churned out by the dozens with little or no regard to the health of the puppies or the breeding dogs. 
Does "breeding for profit" make it a puppy mill? 
Stradivari sold his violins and Manet sold his paintings.

Of course, from a purely practical point of view, if there's any debate over whether a breeder is a puppy mill, just find another breeder. 

Here was my litmus test when talking to a breeder. Some told me what I wanted to hear. The breeder I chose told me what I needed to know. With the help of the resources here, it won't be that hard to find the right one. 

best
Allen


----------



## Ljilly28

My bad, precoffee sentence. I agree with you about politics, but not about this particular breeder. 

I just read a great article distinguishing the lines between hobby breeder, byb, puppy mill,etc. The way the writer defined puppy mill: multiple litters created with an eye for financial profit mainly or soley. A hobby breeder carefully plans a litter for a purpose other than money- guide dogs, hunt test dogs, agility dogs, show dogs- for a purpose other than money. A hobby breeder who breeds for great pet dogs becomes hard to distinguish from a nicer puppy mill, but selling to all comers on the internet and using catchphrases like rare white golden is a tipoff, imo.


----------



## Pointgold

I can barely get past the "English Creme" crap, but beyond that, there is a very big difference in selling a pet quality dog for the same price (or more) than a show quality dog. Showing is not for everyone. As I breeder, I do not require anyone to show my puppies. I have sold puppies that would easily finish as pet, because the home was so wonderful. I would not have known that if I sold the dog to someone who simply inquired via the internet and said "I'll send a check, mail the dog." It's a process that, if a breeder truly cares about the dogs s/he produces, means getting to know the potential buyer and vice versa. It must be a good fit for the buyer, the breeder, and most importantly, the puppy. And when a breeder (or, in many cases the word "manufacturer") of puppies that are over or undersized, or posessing of any other qualities that are either not within standard, or are lacking breed type, markets them as somehow being "special" and worth more money, it does a disservice to the breed, and often to the individual dog (ie oversize often equates to hip/elbow/heart problems).

We can argue the merits of showing dogs til the cows come home, but when someone is putting titles on their dogs, no matter the venue, it usually does indicate that extra effort and thought is being put into the breedings being made, with the hope of at least maintaining the integrity of the breed, if not improving it. It's not just about being "pretty".


----------



## Debles

We are talking dogs for family members here, not violins or paintings. I think the people here on GRF would see a difference.


Besides the problems others have brought up, I think their males look more like Pyrs.
If that what you want, get a Pyr , not a golden. I think they have WAY too many dogs to be a hobby breeder. JMO.


----------



## Ljilly28

> Rare White Goldens
> 
> If you are considering a "Rare White Golden," keep in mind that Golden Retriever colors exist from very light to very dark, but do not include white. Purebred Golden Retrievers do not come in pure white, even though some may be extremely light cream in color.
> 
> Also, be aware that there are a number of people specializing in what they call White Goldens making them sound rare and exotic. Light-colored Goldens are just that; it is simply a color preference. When evaluating a Golden Retriever puppy as an addition to your home, color should be the last thing you should consider.


from Golden Retriever Club Of America



> They also may be charging much higher prices for these dogs than might be charged by any responsible breeder. Make sure that you ask about genetic testing and that you actually see written reports of clearance claims.
> Please review the GRCA’s Public Education web site for more specific information on the criteria you should use in purchasing a puppy and identifying a responsible breeder.



Even a pet dog owner like me might want to support the precepts of the golden retriever club of America. A purebred dog is not for everyone, but if you want one, why not support the standard of the breed you choose? I know many threads like this have been listed and there are probably 100. I also know that I have made mistakes judging breeding programs even armed with tons of info and desire to uphold the ideal of supporting seriously responsible breeders. It is really hard to assess as a well-meaning pet puppy buyer. Maybe the AKC should admit the "Rare White Retriever" as its own breed?


----------



## Pointgold

Breed type, anyone?


----------



## Debles

Thanks PG!


----------



## goldengirls550

avincent52 said:


> The most pointed criticism seems to come back to "but she doesn't show them and they don't have titles."
> 
> Playing devil's advocate, why is that such a big deal if you're looking for a pet quality dog? Sure, showing encourages a breeder to plan his or her breedings carefully. But it also encourages breedings based almost solely on looks. I imagine that there have been plenty of dogs with questionable dispositions and/or potential health issues that have been bred simply because they're gorgeous.
> 
> Imagine if only gorgeous people could mate. We'd have a world full of Jessica Simpsons and no Albert Einsteins.
> 
> 
> allen


I diagree strongly with the above comment. Even if you want a pet golden, having parents that are titled proves that your golden is calm and well behaved in public situations and it shows the breeder's devotion to the breed. If you breed or want to breed please do ANYTHING with your dogs to prove that your dog is worth breeding!!!

Also it is certainly NOT true that all pretty goldens are "dumb blondes". Golden were BRED and CREATED to be a versatile breed. A true golden should have correct conformation and still retain the work and drive ability of those who work in the field. Multi-titled goldens are truly a tribute to the breed. Anyone who says that goldens can't be smart and pretty at the same time needs to research the breed further. Goldens can truly do it all and a good breeder knows this.

Emily and the golden girls: Aubrie and Layla


----------



## avincent52

> We are talking dogs for family members here, not violins or paintings. I think the people here on GRF would see a difference.


I'm not equating dogs with violins or paintings (although as a breeder I think I'd be flattered with the comparison to Manet and Stradivari) but I think that when we start talking about profit motivations, it only clouds the issue.

Many of the best breeders sell dogs for substantial sums and have elaborate contracts that specify financial remedies if there are problems with the dogs. And some BYBs all but give dogs away, but their well meaning breedings often include unhealthy dogs.

I'm a democrat, but I don't see any problem with making money for your effort and expertise (as long as it's not the primary motivation.)



best
Allen


----------



## Pointgold

How 'bout now?


----------



## Pointgold

avincent52 said:


> I'm not equating dogs with violins or paintings (although as a breeder I think I'd be flattered with the comparison to Manet and Stradivari) but I think that when we start talking about profit motivations, it only clouds the issue.
> 
> Many of the best breeders sell dogs for substantial sums and have elaborate contracts that specify financial remedies if there are problems with the dogs. And some BYBs all but give dogs away, but their well meaning breedings often include unhealthy dogs.
> 
> I'm a democrat, but I don't see any problem with making money for your effort and expertise (as long as it's not the primary motivation.)
> 
> 
> 
> best
> Allen


 
Let me know how the best breeders are making money. Because if the math is done, once you consider everything that is put into any given dog that a breeder has, they will rarely, if ever, see any profit. They might be lucky and break even.


----------



## avincent52

goldengirls550 said:


> I diagree strongly with the above comment. Even if you want a pet golden, having parents that are titled proves that your golden is calm and well behaved in public situations and it shows the breeder's devotion to the breed. If you breed or want to breed please do ANYTHING with your dogs to prove that your dog is worth breeding!!!
> 
> Also it is certainly NOT true that all pretty goldens are "dumb blondes". Golden were BRED and CREATED to be a versatile breed. A true golden should have correct conformation and still retain the work and drive ability of those who work in the field. Multi-titled goldens are truly a tribute to the breed. Anyone who says that goldens can't be smart and pretty at the same time needs to research the breed further. Goldens can truly do it all and a good breeder knows this.
> 
> Emily and the golden girls: Aubrie and Layla


First off, I'm taking a bit of a devil's advocate position here. 

I didn't say that a dog can't be pretty and smart (and healthy and good-tempered.) I hope that my puppy-in-waiting (who's got a serious champion on each side of the pedigree) will be all of those things.

And I know that there are breeders who want all of those things out of their dogs (and not necessarily in that order.) The good news for a puppy buyer is that while these breeders may be harder to find and have longer waiting lists, they don't necessarily charge more for their pups. 

But I imagine that some lesser breeders choose conformation characteristics 
(or for that matter field characteristics) at the expense of health or temperament. 

I guess what I'm saying is this: Seeing some show photos and champion titles on a breeder's website is a positive sign, but it shouldn't be the only criteria by which you judge a breeder or a dog.

best
Allen


----------



## avincent52

sorry...double post


----------



## avincent52

> Let me know how the best breeders are making money. Because if the math is done, once you consider everything that is put into any given dog that a breeder has, they will rarely, if ever, see any profit. They might be lucky and break even.


I really don't know. I'm asking. 
If a breeder charges $1,500 for a puppy and has eight in a litter, that's $12,000.
Two litters a year, that's $24,000.

It's hardly a fortune. But does it really cost $24,000 to whelp 16 puppies? 

I really don't know what the expense side of the equation looks like but I'll take your word for it. 

This is not to say that I don't think that *a great breeder is worth every penny*. I'm buying a dog that's healthy and good tempered and well suited to my needs, as well as the expertise of the breeder in picking the pup and helping to train it and keep it healthy. That's all worth plenty, especially in light of how much vet bills and lawsuits cost. 

I was the one who noted this fact:
Over the course of a dog's 12-year lifetime, the difference between a $1,500 breeder dog and a $500 puppy mill dog is *16 cents a day*. That's won't even buy you a snack for a Chi-Neuf TM.


----------



## Ljilly28

Historically, this is about the time in the thread during which the website -in -question's owner will suddenly sign on and be really angry and say people are prejudiced against white goldens but that they really are better/nicer/precious.


----------



## Lucky's mom

avincent52 said:


> I'm not equating dogs with violins or paintings (although as a breeder I think I'd be flattered with the comparison to Manet and Stradivari) but I think that when we start talking about profit motivations, it only clouds the issue.
> 
> Many of the best breeders sell dogs for substantial sums and have elaborate contracts that specify financial remedies if there are problems with the dogs. And some BYBs all but give dogs away, but their well meaning breedings often include unhealthy dogs.
> 
> I'm a democrat, but I don't see any problem with making money for your effort and expertise (as long as it's not the primary motivation.)
> 
> 
> 
> best
> Allen


I have to chuckle here.....I disagree with your politics but I'm with you on this topic.


----------



## avincent52

> Historically, this is about the time in the thread during which the website -in -question's owner will suddenly sign on and be really angry and say people are prejudiced against white goldens but that they really are better/nicer/precious.


I'm not the owner of Goldengals Kennels, but I play her on TV (but not in HD, of course.)

And I can't believe what I'm reading here. You're sooooo mean. Really mean. Meaner than mean.

You can say what you want about me, but don't you dare insult my 100 percent imported venti double creme latte Golden Retrievers. They're soooo white. Really white. Whiter than white. 

And we take care of them like the *Best in Show, Westminster Super Champions* that we think they are. We push them around in Playschool shopping carts. We feed them, sometimes twice a day. We feed our stud boy five times a day so that he can be even more studlier, wink wink, nudge nudge. 

Aren't they cute? Really cute? Cuter than cute?
And precious? Really precious? $3,000 worth of precious?
We take Visa, Mastercard, American Express, Discover, mortgage backed securities, credit default swaps and the Chi-Neuf credit card.

Oh, and aren't they cute? You betcha!!


----------



## Pointgold

avincent52 said:


> I really don't know. I'm asking.
> If a breeder charges $1,500 for a puppy and has eight in a litter, that's $12,000.
> Two litters a year, that's $24,000.
> 
> It's hardly a fortune. But does it really cost $24,000 to whelp 16 puppies?
> 
> I really don't know what the expense side of the equation looks like but I'll take your word for it.
> 
> This is not to say that I don't think that *a great breeder is worth every penny*. I'm buying a dog that's healthy and good tempered and well suited to my needs, as well as the expertise of the breeder in picking the pup and helping to train it and keep it healthy. That's all worth plenty, especially in light of how much vet bills and lawsuits cost.
> 
> I was the one who noted this fact:
> Over the course of a dog's 12-year lifetime, the difference between a $1,500 breeder dog and a $500 puppy mill dog is *16 cents a day*.


No. It doesn't cost $24,000.00 to whelp 16 puppies. Your $1500.00 price per puppy is generous. A more realistic average is $1000.00. Regardless, here are the things that you are not taking into consideration.
Most breeders do not breed their bitches twice a year, so we'll assume that you are speaking of two bitches. If they are champions, the cost to earn that championship can easily be $10,000.00 when you consider gas, hotels, entries, etc. Or, handlers fees. Let's be very conservative and say $8000.00. There is $16,000.00 right there for two bitches. Unless the breeder uses one of their own stud dogs, lets look at 2 stud fees of $1000.00 each (again, conservative, if a top winning dog is used.) We are now at $18,000.00. And most breeders do at least progesterone timing tests so lets say about $200.00 each. Lets conservatively look at the cost of clearances for each bitch as $300.00 for OFA x-rays and fees for hips/elbows, and another $50 for cardiac and $35 for CERF (and there well could be travel expenses to obtain them, as in my case - I have to drive 3 hours, and spend the night in Lansing to be able to get cardiac and opthalmology clearances done - there is an easy $400.00, and the bitches might not be the same age so that could be TWO trips for them to have been done). Food and routine vet bills for the life of the bitch? Let's conservatively say $2000.00 each. We are at $23,170.00 conservatively. We can add advertising, phone bills, toys and other extraneous items associated with whelping a litter and conservatively say $300.00 each. (Far more if any advertising was ever done for the bitch or litter in the GRCA) and we are at $23,770.00. Now let's HOPE that the bitch has 8 puppies, far more often we are lucky getting 6. And let's PRAY that she doesn't need a c-section which averages arout $1000.00. A day or two off work to whelp the litter, etc etc. And we need to take Mom and babies to the vet , for a post-whelp check up and maybe dewclaw removal, lets say $100.00. And then it's time to deworm and vaccinate, lets say $150.00 conservativley. So, you see, we have, if we are conservative, $24,270.00. (that's w/o a c-section, big ad in the GRCA, and an unknown number of puppies.)


----------



## António Frazão

Pointgold said:


> RUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Any "breeder" who refers to their dogs as CH white Golden Retrievers, and doesn't actually SHOW them to a championship, would be one to avoid.
> 
> :doh:


Well I don't know how things work very well in championships in america but in Portugal ( i don't know if in europe is the same ) american golden are disqualified most of the times even if they are perfect, just because of the colour!

You have to think what you want, if you want an European golden retriever, I think the breeder seems ok. It depends the price you are going to pay too.
If not, you should find other breeder.


----------



## António Frazão

Pointgold said:


> No. It doesn't cost $24,000.00 to whelp 16 puppies. Your $1500.00 price per puppy is generous. A more realist average is $1000.00. Regardless, here are the things that you are not taking into consideration.
> Most breeders do not breed their bitches twice a year, so we'll assume that you are speaking of two bitches. If they are champions, the cost to earn that championship can easily be $10,000.00 when you consider gas, hotels, entries, etc. Or, handlers fees. Let's be very conservative and say $8000.00. There is $16,000.00 right there for two bitches. Unless the breeder uses one of their own stud dogs, lets look at 2 stud fees of $1000.00 each (again, conservative, if a top winning dog is used.) We are now at $18,000.00. And most breeders do at least progesterone timing tests so lets say about $200.00 eachLets conservatively look at the cost of clearances for each bitch as $300.00 for OFA x-rays and fees for hips/elbows, and another $50 for cardiac and $35 for CERF (and there well could be travel expenses to obtain them, as in my case - I have to drive 3 hours, and spend the night in Lansing to be able to get cardiac and opthalmology clearances done - there is an easy $400.00, and the bitches might not be the same age so that could be TWO trips for them to have been done). Food and routine vet bills for the life of the bitch? Let's conservatively say $2000.00 each. We are at $23,170.00 conservatively. We can add advertising, phone bills, toys and other extraneous items associated with whelping a litter and conservatively say $300.00 each. (Far more if any advertising was ever done for the bitch or litter in the GRCA) and we are at $23,770.00. Now let's HOPE that the bitch has 8 puppies, far more often we are lucky getting 6. And let's PRAY that she doesn't need a c-section which averages arout $1000.00. A day or two off work to whelp the litter, etc etc. And we need to take Mom and babies to the vet , for a post-whelp check up and maybe dewclaw removal, lets say $100.00. And then it's time to deworm and vaccinate, lets say $150.00 conservativley. So, you see, we have, if we are conservative, $24,270.00. (that's w/o a c-section, big ad in the GRCA, and an unknown number of puppies.)


:appl::appl: thanks for the explanation... I was very curious about breeders costs...


----------



## DUSTYRD2

I agree Laura, you are being VERY conservative in your figures. For people like us preparing to get into breeding the costs are enormous. I have tracked Dusty's expenses so know exactly to the penny how much we have spent. Training, vet expenses (excluding this last year), show/trial entries, handling fees, 3 annual club memberships, clearances, grooming equipment & supplies, we have topped over $25,000. This does not include food, toys, leashes, field equipment and the mini van to cart it all around in. NOW, we are looking at buying a foundation bitch. Cost? Upwards of $1,500. Then another say $15,000 to put a championship and clearances, training all the rest. And a two+ year wait before any breeding can be done. Next comes whelping supplies, which I really have no clue of the cost yet, but we need a whelping pen, feeding bowls, potty training aids, meds for the whelping and heaven knows what else. It's all those little things that add up. So now we're ready to breed using our own stud (frozen semen which has been stored for 2+ years at a cost of $475 for collection + $50/yr storage) & bitch. Progesterone tests, brucellosis tests on the bitch, AI or surgical implant costs and praying it took. Time to whelp, assuming no c-section is required, all goes well and we have 6-8 pups with no medical problems. CKC litter registration about $25, individual pup registration $12 each, dewclaw removal $15/pup, tatooing, $12/pup, vet visits, deworming, first shots & food for 8 weeks. Then there's the advertising of the litter in local club newsletters, websites, $50. Now you have new owners and they all are entitled to puppy packets, another cost for pictures and photocopying. 
So now all the pups have gone home and I've collected 6-8 thousands dollars. Hmmmm.... wait. I've kept a pup for future breeding. Oops.... it starts all over again, $15,000 for clearances and show expenses.........

Some of you always wonder why we bother putting those titles on our dogs? Because it's the only way we can prove to the pet buying folks that their puppies come from dogs that conform to the breed standard, are in all probablility are coming from relatively healthy lines. 

We do it because we care enough about our dogs and want to maintain the integrity of the breed to do everything we can to ensure YOU get a quality puppy.

Make money? I think not. It's the costs that are expended years before the new puppy ever hits the ground that a lot of people don't realize.


----------



## Ash

Good explanation, Laura but I must say those costs are VERY conservative. It does usually cost more then that ending result. Those are just costs en route to breeding your bitch. It has nothing to do with purchasing and shipping quality dogs, the money to set up proper housing should you have more then 3 and nothing to do with feeding your litter after they are on the ground, making all the booklets, baggies and copies for the puppy books. Nevermind ALL the TIME spent emailing and on the phone while some of the families are impaitient and at times almost irritating or the afternoons spent to do puppy visitations when really you could be more productive that day. Not that I have issues with any of that whatsoever. I just think sometimes folks truely under-estimate what actually goes into raising a litter of quality puppies for folks that expect the best (as do we) and how thin we are spread at times and are ALWAYS there to offer support and spend the time - bending over backwards and changing your plans for them (some people forget we have lives to) again not complaining or saying I should not have to as that is an ethical part of breeding Goldens just trying to make a point  JMHO


----------



## Pointgold

Believe me, I KNOW that I was being very conservative. I was pm'd the statement that my math was fuzzy, because after that first litter, any following litters would be "pure profit". Here is my reply:

As I said, I am being VERY conservative with the dollar amounts. There is never, or very rarely "pure profit". Consider that most breeders keep at least one puppy from their litters, and the expenses begin again with those dogs. I didn't account for the costs of specialing a dog or bitch if a breeder does that, which can average, again _conservatively_, upwards of $30k a year. There are costs associated with every dog in their kennel, whether being bred or not. And the majority of a breeders dogs are not. And no, I did not account for any kind of "wage" for the time. Too often, breedings do not take, so there is an entire breedable season that has been non-productive, with out of pocket expenses incurred.
Pretty much gone are the days of large show kennels, with many champion dogs being bred and many litters being produced. In todays economic climate, it just is not feasible. There are more "requirements" such as health clearances that did not exist 40-50 years ago when large kennels were competing, and travel expenses were not so prohibitive. 
It truly is a labor of love.


----------



## Pointgold

Ash said:


> Good explanation, Laura but I must say those costs are VERY conservative. It does usually cost more then that ending result. Those are just costs en route to breeding your bitch. It has nothing to do with purchasing and shipping quality dogs, the money to set up proper housing should you have more then 3 and nothing to do with feeding your litter after they are on the ground, making all the booklets, baggies and copies for the puppy books. Nevermind ALL the TIME spent emailing and on the phone while some of the families are impaitient and at times almost irritating or the afternoons spent to do puppy visitations when really you could be more productive that day. Not that I have issues with any of that whatsoever. I just think sometimes folks truely under-estimate what actually goes into raising a litter of quality puppies for folks that expect the best (as do we) and how thin we are spread at times and are ALWAYS there to offer support and spend the time - bending over backwards and changing your plans for them (some people forget we have lives to) again not complaining or saying I should not have to as that is an ethical part of breeding Goldens just trying to make a point  JMHO


Definately. I have not built the price of my kennel, my many vans that have been driven into the ground, their maintenance, etc etc etc. into the puppies that I have sold. I have had a singleton litter. My last litter was TWO. One sold as a pet, the other kept. My trip to Saint Louis to have Zoom bred to a BIS dog, not to mention the vet bills for the progesterone testing, and oh, yes, the c-section which I assisted my vet on (she was NOT on call, and had no techs available, so it was me and her...) which was not discounted, by the way, puts me deep in the hole on that one. Am I complaining? Nope. It's my choice, and I don't think that my puppy buyers are responsible.


----------



## avincent52

The single biggest line item in Pointgold's budget is the $20,000 or so that it costs to show a dog before breeding. 

And that $20K is really the difference between a no-profit enterprise and one that could be still profitable even if the breeder got all clearances, used a top stud, and had the highest quality vet care. 

As I said, I don't think that quality breeders need to be defensive about what they're charging for a puppy. The services that a quality breeder provides (most of which, don't seem to have much to do with actually competing with the dog) is the best money you'll ever spend if you decide to buy a puppy rather than adopt a rescue.

best
Allen


----------



## Ash

To show or trial a dog makes all the diffrence. How are you to proove your dogs are worth breeding to the potential puppy buyers, your fellow breeders and stud dog owners if you don't?? How is imporving, enhancing and bettering the breed if you are not striving for good quality? and striving to say my dogs are great examples of the breed and therefor have something to offer and are worthy of producing. So, yes, IMO it makes all the diffrence. Just my 2 cents.


----------



## Lucky's mom

I think many ...most...want a healthy Golden Retriever that has good temperament and looks like a golden or their idea of a Golden. AFter those factors then comes price and personal choice that dictates on whether they want to pay extra for championship genes and a life-long partnership with the breeder.


----------



## Pointgold

Lucky's mom said:


> I think many ...most...want a healthy Golden Retriever that has good temperament and looks like a golden or their idea of a Golden. AFter those factors then comes price and personal choice that dictates on whether they want to pay extra for championship genes and a life-long partnership with the breeder.


Here's the rub - I sell puppies out of a Best In Specialty winning champion, who has ALL clearances, and CERF eyes done annually, bred to a multiple Best in Show winning, Show Dog Hall of Fame male, BOTH who possess the most exemplary temperaments I have ever witnessed, for LESS than what some of the manufacturers of these "rare white, British creme, Romanian Special" puppies are selling theirs for, most who do NOT do clearances, and further, since my hackles are up and I am already sticking my toes into the swamp, are structurally as unsound and near ugle as I have seen. Seriously, bowed front legs, east/west feet, sway backs, high tails, and dopey expressions seem to be rampant. And they even put PICTURES of that on their sites! I'm NOT being an "elitist", contrary to what I am sure some of you might determine, but am comparing them to the standard and what anyone would know as being sound, no matter the breed. 

There. Now, I will go play with my dogs, who I happen to think are not only pretty, but sweet, and sound in mind and body, and enjoy this lovely autmn day.


----------



## Ash

Pointgold said:


> There. Now, I will go play with my dogs, who I happen to think are not only pretty, but sweet, and sound in mind and body, and enjoy this lovely autmn day.


    I have dishes and mopping calling my name :doh:


----------



## Pointgold

Ash said:


> I have dishes and mopping calling my name :doh:


I did that at 7:00 am after I did the kennel chores, fed the dogs, exercised them, and bathed and groomed 1 adult Golden, 1 puppy Golden, and an English Cocker Spaniel. Then, I did 4 loads of laundry, cleaned the garage, and went grocery shopping.

Now, I really AM going out to play.


----------



## diana_D

Please read the FCI standard about the color of Golden Retrievers, the standard is written by the British:

http://www.fci.be/nomenclatures_detail.asp?lang=en&file=group8

COLOUR : Any shade of gold or cream, neither red nor mahogany. A few white hairs on chest only, permissible.


AKC has different standards, hence the misunderstanding.


----------



## Pointgold

diana_D said:


> Please read the FCI standard about the color of Golden Retrievers, the standard is written by the British:
> 
> http://www.fci.be/nomenclatures_detail.asp?lang=en&file=group8
> 
> COLOUR : Any shade of gold or cream, neither red nor mahogany. A few white hairs on chest only, permissible.
> 
> 
> AKC has different standards, hence the misunderstanding.


While worded differently, there is very little difference between that and the US Standard. As regards color:

_*Color*_ -- rich, lustrous golden of various shades. Feathering may be lighter than rest of coat. With the exception of graying or whitening of face or body due to age, any white marking, other than a few white hairs on the chest, should be penalized according to its extent. Allowable light shadings are not to be confused with white markings. Predominant body color which is either extremely pale or extremely dark is undesirable. Some latitude should be given to the light puppy whose coloring shows promise of deepening with maturity. Any noticeable area of black or other off-color hair is a serious fault.


----------



## goldengirls550

avincent52 said:


> First off, I'm taking a bit of a devil's advocate position here.
> 
> I didn't say that a dog can't be pretty and smart (and healthy and good-tempered.) I hope that my puppy-in-waiting (who's got a serious champion on each side of the pedigree) will be all of those things.
> 
> And I know that there are breeders who want all of those things out of their dogs (and not necessarily in that order.) The good news for a puppy buyer is that while these breeders may be harder to find and have longer waiting lists, they don't necessarily charge more for their pups.
> 
> But I imagine that some lesser breeders choose conformation characteristics
> (or for that matter field characteristics) at the expense of health or temperament.
> 
> I guess what I'm saying is this: Seeing some show photos and champion titles on a breeder's website is a positive sign, but it shouldn't be the only criteria by which you judge a breeder or a dog.
> 
> best
> Allen



Allen, I agree with you about your last sentence. Yes, there is much MORE to a breeder than simply titles on his or her dogs. But at least it shows that the breeder went to some length to improve his or her lines.

There are plenty of excellent breeders out there who may help out families who need financial assistance. Many breeders, and I know of some, understand where people are coming from especially in today's economy.

But what I don't understand is why do people think that purchasing a golden is a quick easy and cheap measure. Does anyone know how much it takes to simply KEEP a dog per year? I don't want to think how much we spend on our goldens each year when it comes down to their premium quality dog food, vet expenses, toys, treats and bait, collars, leashes, grooming tools and shampoo, enrollment for dog classes, show fees, etc. and we don't even BREED so I have barely scratched the surface!

Breeding is no small hobby and it is best to leave it to the professionals who have a goal in mind. Not just "it would be fun" or "we want to earn a little extra money". Good breeders know that this motive will leave you broke.

Please EDUCATE yourselves, everyone, before you buy! And consider rescueing if your budget is limited!

Sorry for the rant. I'm done (for now lol)

Emily


----------



## Ljilly28

Another difference is what happens if there IS a problem. No matter how careful a breeder is, health issues that are polygenetic will occur occasionally( much more often for puppy mills). We have had 7 goldens, all with full clearances in both parents. 5 have been completely healthy, three living into mid teens,1 has very mild epilepsy with a seizure every few years, and one has serious elbow problems- fragmented coronoid process, though both of her parents have chic numbers and are elbows normal, both parents hips good, heart, eyes Cerf ,and even PRA/optigen tested. Go figure. Anyway, that breeder returned the entire purchase price of the puppy. How many people would do that? You KNOW our breeders on this forum would take their puppies back if a buyer couldnt keep their dog- but what happens to puppy mill dogs in case of emergencies? A good breeder is like an insurance policy for the dog him/herself- to always have a safe haven is something goes terribly wrong. PG would move mountains to bring home a Zoom puppy who needed help; you could bet your life on that!


----------



## avincent52

> But what I don't understand is why do people think that purchasing a golden is a quick easy and cheap measure. Does anyone know how much it takes to simply KEEP a dog per year? I don't want to think how much we spend on our goldens each year when it comes down to their premium quality dog food, vet expenses, toys, treats and bait, collars, leashes, grooming tools and shampoo, enrollment for dog classes, show fees, etc. and we don't even BREED so I have barely scratched the surface!


It may seem like a lot when it's paid as a lump sum, but the amount that you pay for a dog is really a drop in the bucket. 
A $1,500 dog works out a quarter a day over a 12 year lifespan. 
Can you feed your dog for a quarter a day?
Can you find a dog walker who'll walk your dog for a quarter a day?
Can you find a trainer who'll work for a quarter a day?
And what about the quarter a day vet? 

While it's not an absolute guarantee, finding a reputable breeder now might just keep you from needing to find the best dog behaviorist in town or the best doggie hip surgeon nine months from now and paying their bills. That's why I went that route, and, if you're not getting a rescue dog, it seems like an absolute no-brainer.

best
allen


----------



## Pointgold

Pointgold said:


> I did that at 7:00 am after I did the kennel chores, fed the dogs, exercised them, and bathed and groomed 1 adult Golden, 1 puppy Golden, and an English Cocker Spaniel. Then, I did 4 loads of laundry, cleaned the garage, and went grocery shopping.
> 
> Now, I really AM going out to play.


 
HAHAHAHAHA! Someone remains interested enough in what I do to wonder "What time did she get up?" 
I got up at 4:00am when my husband got up to get ready for work. And I multi-tasked, as while I was bathing one, the others were out exercising. Zoom is out of coat so it didn't take long, Tommy is a puppy, so he doesn't take long, and the English Cocker only needed touch up trimming after his bath. Was back in the house at 7:00 at which time I washed dishes, put the first load of laundry in, mopped the floor (the new Shark steamer mop is AWESOME) and went to Meijers to shop. Got home, put in more laundry, and cleaned the garage (which wasn't too bad for a change.)
I'm just amazed that my rather pedestrian life is of interest enough that someone would actually start a thread on another forum about it. :gotme:


----------



## avincent52

That's how it started for Britney Spears. First they wondered what time she got up and how long it took her to bathe the dogs.
Before long there were paparazzi parked on the front lawn 24/7.


----------



## LibertyME

Add to the physical expenses of breeding, the risks.
The very real risk that a bitch may die during whelping..
Thay she may develope pyometra (or any other problem) that would require her to be spayed.
The risk taht she may not be a great mother
The risk that she requires a C-Scetion for her whelping...

For puppymillers....this is no big deal....they have other bitches in line to fill the void...
Responsible breeders may spend years looking for just the right bitch to fill the void...


----------



## Pointgold

avincent52 said:


> That's how it started for Britney Spears. First they wondered what time she got up and how long it took her to bathe the dogs.
> Before long there were paparazzi parked on the front lawn 24/7.


Hahaha. Well, they'd die of boredom watching me do the mundane tasks that I do, if the pace of doing them didn't get them first. 

To the interested party - I'll try harder to be more exciting so that keeping track of me will be worthwhile for you. It's got to be disappointing that I am so ordinary. :moreek:


----------



## GoldenJoyx'stwo

It's amazing how much a person can get done when they are organized. Years ago I was watching Phil D. and he had two women on who organized homes, etc...They said to set your timer for 5 minutes and go about your chores. You'd be amazed at what you can do in 5 minutes. We were laughing at work the other day because I put my food in the microwave for 3 minutes and was able to go two floors up to another department, do what I had to do, and when I came back my food wasn't even done yet!

PG...When I was able to move quickly, my neighbors thought I was nuts. I could do loads of laundry, mow the lawn, and wash the car in a very short period of time. I'd then move on to digging out a garden, moving the earth to the backyard, and planting. I usually had the house clean before I did any of the above. 

BOT now...


----------



## Pointgold

Kimm said:


> It's amazing how much a person can get done when they are organized. Years ago I was watching Phil D. and he had two women on who organized homes, etc...They said to set your timer for 5 minutes and go about your chores. You'd be amazed at what you can do in 5 minutes. We were laughing at work the other day because I put my food in the microwave for 3 minutes and was able to go two floors up to another department, do what I had to do, and when I came back my food wasn't even done yet!
> 
> PG...When I was able to move quickly, my neighbors thought I was nuts. I could do loads of laundry, mow the lawn, and wash the car in a very short period of time. I'd then move on to digging out a garden, moving the earth to the backyard, and planting. I usually had the house clean before I did any of the above.
> 
> BOT now...


Well, I am nothing if not organized. It is a large part of what I do for a living, and time management is important to me. As much as I would like to, sleeping in is not in my schedule. Being somewhat of an insomniac doesn't help, either. :no: Getting as much done as early as I can on the weekends allows for at least some down time. I also live with lists and try to get them done in an order that is the most efficient. It's quite boring, but does make the time that I have for fun, well, more fun!


----------



## vrocco1

For some crazy reason, I get up at 4:30 on work days. I get more done before everyone gets to work, then I do the rest of the day. I'm thinking that the people that get there at 8AM never get anything worthwhile accomplished. I can see how others might be interested in why I am so productive. (NOT)


----------



## Debles

When I had three growing kids, two big dogs,worked full time, kept house etc I was more organized and got MUCH more done than I do now that I don't work . And it's not just because of my bad health either. 
I actually think the busier I was, the more organized.


----------



## Penny & Maggie's Mom

Debles said:


> When I had three growing kids, two big dogs,worked full time, kept house etc I was more organized and got MUCH more done than I do now that I don't work . And it's not just because of my bad health either.
> I actually think the busier I was, the more organized.


I am the same way Deb. But it's a time in our life for us to slow down and smell the roses too... seriously. As the old saying goes, when on your death bed, very few rue the fact that they should have spent more time at work, kept a cleaner house, etc. It's the relationships and enjoyment with family & friends that you cherish and want more of. Spending time with our grown children, grandbabies, friends and, of course our furry family is what is most important to me. Work serves it's purpose and both Terry & I are super organized in that regard, but when we're not working, it's smell the roses time.


----------



## avincent52

I got this very interesting response from kwit in the show dog sub-forum here. This goes to my point about 40 posts ago about some of the potential problems of judging a breeder (or a breeding dog) based solely on their show performance.

allen



> Handlers can absolutely cover many flaws on a dog, and that includes flaws in their temperament as well. I believe 100% in showing as a criteria for anyone that breeds their dogs, but there are very shady people in the show world that will go to any lengths to finish their dogs. Research on the part of a puppy buyer is key.
> 
> It floors me that some people are under the illusion that because "it's" a show dog it must be sound in every aspect. There is a very well known harlequin Great Dane stud, that has since passed, that can be found in many, many harlequin pedigrees out there. He was shown extensively and his show record was amazing. He was one of the best movers, his body was very, very sound, and that's really difficult to find in a giant breed. But....he had one of the nastiest temperaments out there. His handler knew how to "control" him and never had an issue in the ring. Everyone wanted to breed to him because he ALWAYS threw typey, sound, gorgeous puppies. Did all have his temperament...no...but there were exceptions. People were willing to take the chance, though.
> 
> A friend of my sister's went out to look at puppies sired by him, at his breeder's house, and her 6 yr. old daughter almost had her face taken off by this stud. Breeder's explanation..."Oh, he's having a bad day, doesn't like kids too much." Believe it or not, she left with a puppy and never had issues with temperament.
> 
> So yes, IMO, you can "improve" a conformation dog.
> __________________


----------



## Pointgold

There are certainly a lot of "tricks of the trade" in the show ring. But, it doesn't take long for word to get around if something is being done to cover up problems, especially temperament porblems. And I personally do not think that it is quite as rampant as some would have you think. It also must be taken into consideration that when someone is doing a lot of winning, it is not unusual for those being beaten to undermine that dog with often unfounded accusations. There is certainly a "dark side" to the sport, just as in any other competitive venue.

It goes without saying that puppy buyers should do their research, no matter WHO they are buying from.


----------



## martinrt

I was a bit surprised about people's reaction to this thread. Both of my wonderful dogs are from Golden Girls Kennels and I have nothing but good things to say about the breeder. Yes, she has a lot of dogs, but by no means is she running a mill and pumping out dogs solely for profit. I see one place on the website where it says quality CH golden retrievers, but no where she misrepresents any specific dog as being CH itself. While her dogs aren't shown and don't hold titles themselves, it doesn't mean they don't hold the characteristics of producing show dogs. I received all health clearances on my dogs and they are true to their "advertised" mellow personalities and intelligence. Maybe this is how she makes a living, but I've been to their house and didn't see a Bently in driveway...I hardly think she's making it big off puppy sales. Personally, I highly recommend them think you'll be very happy with the service and the whole process. Someone wrote that the difference between a dog of $x and $y amounts to pennies a day, and I'm definitely fine with paying the extra pennies for the great dogs I got. I'm sure I could have got just as smart/loving/healthy of a dog for less, but price wasn't an option and these dogs are truely amazing to me. I LOVE the "Irish Creme" "Platinum Blood" goldens.


----------



## Pointgold

martinrt said:


> I was a bit surprised about people's reaction to this thread. Both of my wonderful dogs are from Golden Girls Kennels and I have nothing but good things to say about the breeder. Yes, she has a lot of dogs, but by no means is she running a mill and pumping out dogs solely for profit. I see one place on the website where it says quality CH golden retrievers, but no where she misrepresents any specific dog as being CH itself. While her dogs aren't shown and don't hold titles themselves, it doesn't mean they don't hold the characteristics of producing show dogs. I received all health clearances on my dogs and they are true to their "advertised" mellow personalities and intelligence. Maybe this is how she makes a living, but I've been to their house and didn't see a Bently in driveway...I hardly think she's making it big off puppy sales. Personally, I highly recommend them think you'll be very happy with the service and the whole process. Someone wrote that the difference between a dog of $x and $y amounts to pennies a day, and I'm definitely fine with paying the extra pennies for the great dogs I got. I'm sure I could have got just as smart/loving/healthy of a dog for less, but price wasn't an option and these dogs are truely amazing to me. I LOVE the "Irish Creme" "Platinum Blood" goldens.


The term "champion quality" means NOTHING unless it is proveable by earning the actual title. Every byb and miller on the planet uses that term. Pretty nearly every dog out there has a champion in it's pedigree if you go back far enough. It means nothing unless the sire and dam and grandparents, at least, are champions. 
And marketing dogs as "Irish Creme" and "Platinum Blood (sic)" Goldens is, IMO, perpetuating fraud - there simply is no such thing. Nor are there "White Goldens".

While the kennel in question is doing clearances, they have also bred underaged dogs without. ie "Poi", who will not be 2 until Nov. 23.


----------



## hotel4dogs

I know absolutely nothing about that breeder, who might be just fantastic, but I will say to martinrt that it's great that you're so pleased with your dogs....but don't judge the health of a breeder's line when your dogs are both babies. Very very few problems would show up at that age. They may be wonderful, awesome, healthy dogs, but it's premature to be judging the health of any breeder's line of dogs at that age. For you, and for all of us, I hope your little loves truly are wonderfully healthy dogs that go on to lead long, healthy lives.


----------



## goldengirls550

I find it interesting that on the upcoming litter page she put a picture of a previous puppy from a past breeding of the sire and dam and wrote "This is what your puppy will look like" Any experienced breeder knows that this is hardly the case. There are literally thousands of possibilities of what a pup will look like even with repeat breedings. I have seen so many puppies that look very different (and others that look similar) come out of the same litter. There is really no way to predict what the ENTIRE litter will look like.


----------



## Lucky's mom

martinrt said:


> I was a bit surprised about people's reaction to this thread. Both of my wonderful dogs are from Golden Girls Kennels and I have nothing but good things to say about the breeder. Yes, she has a lot of dogs, but by no means is she running a mill and pumping out dogs solely for profit. I see one place on the website where it says quality CH golden retrievers, but no where she misrepresents any specific dog as being CH itself. While her dogs aren't shown and don't hold titles themselves, it doesn't mean they don't hold the characteristics of producing show dogs. I received all health clearances on my dogs and they are true to their "advertised" mellow personalities and intelligence. Maybe this is how she makes a living, but I've been to their house and didn't see a Bently in driveway...I hardly think she's making it big off puppy sales. Personally, I highly recommend them think you'll be very happy with the service and the whole process. Someone wrote that the difference between a dog of $x and $y amounts to pennies a day, and I'm definitely fine with paying the extra pennies for the great dogs I got. I'm sure I could have got just as smart/loving/healthy of a dog for less, but price wasn't an option and these dogs are truely amazing to me. I LOVE the "Irish Creme" "Platinum Blood" goldens.


I for one am glad you had a good experience. I certainly didn't with Lucky...I can tell anyone a thing or two about bad breeders.....


----------



## avincent52

Let me join in. I'm glad that you're happy with your dogs and hope they have a long and healthy life.
And we're not discounting your good experience, even as we point out the things that give us pause.
On the other hand, there are breeders who say all the right things on their websites, but have very suspect breeding practices. 
And finally, it's really a numbers game. Puppy mills produce some happy, healthy dogs and some of the best breeders produced the occasional pup with problems. But when you're shopping for a puppy, you want to do everything you can to move the odds in your favor. 
best
Allen


----------



## Phoebe

avincent52 said:


> Let me join in. I'm glad that you're happy with your dogs and hope they have a long and healthy life.
> And we're not discounting your good experience, even as we point out the things that give us pause.
> On the other hand, there are breeders who say all the right things on their websites, but have very suspect breeding practices.
> And finally, it's really a numbers game. Puppy mills produce some happy, healthy dogs and some of the best breeders produced the occasional pup with problems. But when you're shopping for a puppy, you want to do everything you can to move the odds in your favor.
> best
> Allen



While true that puppymills can produce a happy, healthy dog...IMHO there is a responsibility on the part of the person purchasing the dog to make sure the breeding dogs are kept in a loving, clean, environment. Dogs stacked in crates, often sharing crates with other dogs, receiving little or no love and affection, standing in their own excrement, females bred every single cycle...that should be part of the decision when purchasing a dog. It is very important that people understand the responsibility of pet ownership goes beyond the puppy...if you love dogs enough to own them, you should love dogs enough to make sure the sire and bitch of that puppy are living a good life, otherwise you contribute to the abuse. 

This is not a comment on the kennel in question.


----------



## avincent52

Phoebe
I agree heartily.
All I'm saying is that one or two happy healthy dogs (or one or two less-than-healthy dogs) shouldn't be used to judge a breeder. 

And as much as I try to emphasize how insignificant the purchase price can be over the life of the dog (literally pennies a day) there will be those who are price sensitive. 
For them, there are rescues, of course. 
And there are some hobby breeders (including one who posted on another section of the forum with a training question) who charge as little their dogs as a pet shop.
As Laura and others have said, you can do your homework now, and find the right breeder, or later when you have to find the best hip surgeon or the best behaviorist. 

best
Allen


----------



## cabenight

DreamsOfGold said:


> From what I understand they do every clearance there is but I don't see that they do anything other than CGC. I agree the male is large but the puppies on the site are beautiful. What other kennels would you recommend in Colorado or between Iowa and Colorado?


Did you end up buying from Golden Girls Kennels? We are interested in their puppies. Thanks, Carol


----------



## LOVEMYGOLDS

DreamsOfGold said:


> Does anyone know anything about Goldengirls Kennels in Colorado? Am wanting to fullful my dream of getting a golden and ran across them.


Hello. I have a situation with Golden Girls Kennels concerning my deposit being retained.


----------



## LOVEMYGOLDS

Proceed with caution to someone who alledgedly has complaints for refusing to return deposits


----------



## goldparent

I would be very concerned since they are stated licensed and you only need that if you produce or sell a large number of dogs. Besides they say "confirmation titled" which of course shows they know nothing about what conformation is and then they say getting a golden is a 15-20 year committment. They must be producing some super goldens if they are living that long! 

I looked at them when I was doing research for our new puppy and ran as fast as I could. Many of the health clearences couldn't be verified and they wouldn't give you copies of paperwork. We did finally find an awesome breeder and are hoping for a puppy this fall. Maybe you can contact Heritage goldens in Kansas city and see if they have any puppies from the litter we are hoping to get one from. I think you will be impressed when you read how they raise their puppies! 
www.Heritagegoldens.com We talked for 3 hours with the breeder and she never got irritated with all our questions. 

Good luck--Sara Parker (puppy mom to be)


----------



## cabenight

*Golden Girls Kennel*

I did end up with a male puppy from Golden Girls Kennel, and so far, am very, very happy with him. But he is only 5 months old, so time will tell regarding health issues. So far so good. However, I found the breeders to be less than honest in several things they told me, and I'm not sure I would buy from them again, or recommend them to anyone. They don't show their dogs, they do turn out lots of litters, and their dogs aren't cheap. We were told we would have the pick of 2 males, but there was only one available when we showed up. We weren't allowed to see them until they were 8 weeks old. And a few other little issues, that were odd. Also, they have a terrible rating with the Better Business Bureaus, just fyi. That being said, our male puppy, Chester, is intelligent, loving, funny and gorgeous, so we are very happy with him, so far. Good luck in your search!


----------



## Gwen

. 
And there are some hobby breeders (including one who posted on another section of the forum with a training question) who charge as little their dogs as a pet shop.

I don't know whether things are different in Canada, but I've found pet store prices to be outrageously higher than the best breeders! I don't know why anyone would pay those prices except for the fact that a good breeder wouldn't sell to them or they "had" to have a puppy that day!


----------



## goldenmommy

We have purchased 2 puppies from golden girls, we did have to go through an interview process and produce a letter of recommendation from our vet before we bought the first puppy. All paperwork was in order and we were able to go pick out our puppy, they obviously are not making a fortune off of breeding dogs as the house they live in is very modest, our goldens are wonderful dogs, we had some bad luck in the past with goldens that came from breeders that were not watching the lines for health problems and after you have spent thousands of dollars on young dogs with health problems you realize that it is worth spending a bit more on the puppy and making sure that they are coming from lines that are free from most problems. I would definitely recommend golden girls kennels, I have heard negative comments about most of the kennels breeding the white goldens but we did extensive research and found golden girls to be one of the best we could find.


----------



## LOVEMYGOLDS

It feels like it was a bait and switch scam. I am thinking about an attorney. I hope more people come forward who have had issues with the kennel in question


----------



## cabenight

*Golden Girls Kennel*

I'm glad that Goldenmommy had such a good experience with Golden Girls Kennel, and yes, they do mention on their website that they will "interview" you and ask for a letter from your Vet, but they didn't follow through with this on us, we never supplied a letter, because they never requested it. They appear picky as to who they'll sell their puppies to, but not sure that they really are. I guess I'm wary of them because when someone lies to me about something, I wonder what else they weren't truthful about?


----------



## Pointgold

The internet is rife with websites of breeders who have learned to talk the talk, but who do not walk the walk. It is the job of the buyer to check all references and to follow up on all claims.

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=32279

and

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=22440

both contain useful information for those undergoing the process of adding a puppy to their household.


Disclaimer: Yes, I DO subscribe to most of what is in both posted links and have not just posted it randomly for others to see.


----------



## goldenmommy

When we were looking for a new puppy I looked at every kennel in the western United States that had the lighter goldens, I filled out a lot of questionnaires from kennels and basically a lot of them looked the same and they asked questions that really had nothing to do with puppy ownership they were just trying to present themselves online as professional breeders. Many of the kennels were not willing to let us pick up the puppy it could only be shipped, that was a major problem for me because I wanted to see both parents and interact with the parents before paying for an expensive puppy. Golden Girls welcomed us to their home to get our puppy, at the time of our first purchase there were only 2 puppies left from the litter and we were given time to play with both puppies and decide which one we wanted to take home. My brother purchased white goldens in Boston and did not recommend we return to his breeder because he felt that they were not honest. Basically the way the economy is right now I think they are probably all having a hard time selling expensive puppies but watch our for those that will not let you come to the kennel and see where and how the puppies are raised and see the parents. Golden Girls is pretty much farm like with all their lamas, goats and who knows what else, they are definite animal lovers. There are 2 other families in our area that have puppies from Golden Girls and they all say the same thing, their puppies are smart and easy to train and they have never owned a better golden, my vet has said that both of our puppies are beautiful dogs and obviously the breeder knew what they were doing because he has seen his share of disasters from people that just want to have litters of golden puppies and don't pay attention to lineage.


----------



## kaluhaflynn

I dont know if anyone mentioned this BUT, there is no such thing as a WHITE golden, they are cream coloured, if they were white they would have all pink noses with no black pigment, which is what makes a golden a golden. A good golden retriever breeder knows this!!


----------



## grrrick

I know this is an old thread and this is a little off topic, but I had to post this someplace and this seemed as fitting as any, without starting a new thread.

We sent our last golden to the bridge last month, just shy of 13 years old. As I searched for our next breeder, I ran acrossed alot of questionable ones. I learned alot through my research and from this forum (thank you). Tonight, I was revisited some of the websites I found while researching and had to bring this one up, since this thread was about breeders in Colorado.

www.coloradogoldens.com

They've been breeding for over 30 years. I can only find two of their dogs registered with AKC? They have very little about OFA certs. on thier website, but I did find where they mentioned it, but no proof that I could find. The funniest things I found was this:

Chloe. ( http://www.coloradogoldens.com/leadonschloe.html ) It gives a long list of "champions" in her pedigree (which I cannot find on k9data). At the end, it says "WCX = World Champion Excellent" . Wouldn't somebody that has bred Goldens for 30+ years know what WCX stands for?

Daisy. ( http://www.coloradogoldens.com/leadonsdaisy.html ) Again, long list of "champions" with a glossary at the end that explains that CD stands for Champion Dog and CDX stands for Champion Dog Excellent. ***? Again, I can't find anything on k9data. 

In fact, I only found two "Le A Don" dogs on k9data. One being Tayler who is described as "if we were to list his pedigree, it would take too many pages". The other being Ginger, who is no longer on their website.


----------



## Pointgold

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! WCX... that is hysterical. Good grief.

Okay, I can't get past the light eyes and severely straight stifles. All I can see is crippled rears.

I like the colors they offer -
English White Retriever, Red Hunter Retriever, Cream Golden Retriever, Light Golden Retrievers, Medium Golden Retrievers, English Cream Golden Retrievers, Dark Golden Retrievers.


It's an "entertaining" site, though. :doh:


----------



## Tahnee GR

WCX is a GRCA title, that stands for Working Certificate Excellent and is at the end of the name.

Geez, those sites sound like something else!


----------



## Pointgold

Tahnee GR said:


> WCX is a GRCA title, that stands for Working Certificate Excellent and is at the end of the name.
> 
> Geez, those sites sound like something else!


Nuh uh... it's World Champion Excellent. Linda, you should know that... :curtain:


----------



## Pointgold

Usually, "breeders" like Colorado Goldens ar smart (?) enough to at least lift info, cut 'n paste, whatever... verbage that make them appear to know what they are doing. Talking the talk has become real easy with the advent of the internet (walking the walk is often an entirely different story...). But in the case of these people, it's astounding. It's like a Saturday Night Live parody. Sadly, it's for real.


----------



## Tahnee GR

Pointgold said:


> Nuh uh... it's World Champion Excellent. Linda, you should know that... :curtain:


Oh, I'm so embarassed. I just forgot :doh:


----------



## Pointgold

Tahnee GR said:


> Oh, I'm so embarassed. I just forgot :doh:


I need to contact these folks. If CD is Champion Dog, and CDX is Champion Dog Excellent, and WCX is World Champion Excellent, I need to know what Ch is...  I'm embarassed to not know! Worse, to have been so wrong all these years.


----------



## K9-Design

Pointgold said:


> I need to contact these folks. If CD is Champion Dog, and CDX is Champion Dog Excellent, and WCX is World Champion Excellent, I need to know what Ch is...  I'm embarassed to not know! Worse, to have been so wrong all these years.


CH = Champion Hunter -- duh!!!!

UD = Ultimate Deity

TD = Tremendous Dog

VCX = Victorious Champion Xcelen_tay_ (pronounced with accent)

Awesometown!


----------



## hotel4dogs

I'm also incredibly impressed at the huge number of dogs that ONE dog has in her "linnage". Wow. Must be able to trace back at least 25 generations.




Pointgold said:


> I need to contact these folks. If CD is Champion Dog, and CDX is Champion Dog Excellent, and WCX is World Champion Excellent, I need to know what Ch is...  I'm embarassed to not know! Worse, to have been so wrong all these years.


----------



## hotel4dogs

Ok, what about OTCH????
and CDX?
and of course, RAE? RE? RA???




K9-Design said:


> CH = Champion Hunter -- duh!!!!
> 
> UD = Ultimate Deity
> 
> TD = Tremendous Dog
> 
> VCX = Victorious Champion Xcelen_tay_ (pronounced with accent)
> 
> Awesometown!


----------



## FlyingQuizini

*Ok, what about OTCH????
and CDX?*

DUH! OTCH = "Of The Coolest Heritage" and CDX is "Couch Dog Excellent".... 'cuz you know, they're breeding family pets.


----------



## Kohanagold

Where have you all been?? What is wrong with you? Apparently, AKC has made too many titles that you all cant remember what they all stand for...

RAE? REALLY AWESOMELY EXCELLENT
RE? RELIABLE EXAMPLE
RA??? Of course this is REALLY AWESOME

Come on now... get it straight, would ya??


----------



## hotel4dogs

LOL, you guys are too much!


----------



## emtkrista

We have bought two dogs from Golden Girls Kennels over a 6 year time span. We have been happy with both of them. We were able to see the pups on the website from the time they were born, welcomed into their home, and very impressed with how they run this business. It is very obvious that they love what they do. The dogs were beautiful, not overweight and yes some where WHITE!

They have many animals, horses, goats, emu- etc- they spent hours with us, answering all of our questions and showed us proof of all clearances as well as gave us a copy to take with us. The dogs were priced right in the middle of dogs we looked at from other breeders.

Both dogs have been healthy and wonderful. Easy to train and I would buy from them again in a heartbeat! They also do show their dogs- because we met them at a dog show to begin with.


----------



## goldenloverkv

*Golden girls isn't to be trusted*

We got a dog from them, paid over 3,000.00 to get him here (including shipping) and at 5 months he started limping then when we got his hips and elbows x-rayed his hips were fine, but he had elbow displaysia in BOTH elbows (fragmented coronoid process) and (degerative joint disease) we had got this male to use for breeding and according to what information they have on their site it looks like he would be a great addition. But after that happened and we told them they wouldn't give us another dog. They didn't have a guarantee but all other reputable dog breeders I've recently talked with said they would give your another dog if you paid that much only to have a dog which can't be used isn't right to do. We talked with them many times and they won't even give us anything at all. It seems like they are more in it for the money than really helping people get a good dog. I just thought that if there is anyone wanting to get a puppy from them, especially a breeder I'd advise you go elsewhere. I just thought I should warn people. If I wouldn't sold a puppy to a person and their dog had problems and I didn't have a guarantee I would still give them another puppy if they wanted that! I would caution people to watch out for people that don't have a health guarantee. Im not saying they have no good dogs or puppies, but the way they treated us was a way I'd personally never treat someone! Also to get our puppy's problem fixed would be another 2,000. and he can never be used for breeding especially if he can pass this on.


----------



## MaddieMagoo

goldenloverkv said:


> We got a dog from them, paid over 3,000.00 to get him here (including shipping) and at 5 months he started limping then when we got his hips and elbows x-rayed his hips were fine, but he had elbow displaysia in BOTH elbows (fragmented coronoid process) and (degerative joint disease) we had got this male to use for breeding and according to what information they have on their site it looks like he would be a great addition. But after that happened and we told them they wouldn't give us another dog. They didn't have a guarantee but all other reputable dog breeders I've recently talked with said they would give your another dog if you paid that much only to have a dog which can't be used isn't right to do. We talked with them many times and they won't even give us anything at all. It seems like they are more in it for the money than really helping people get a good dog. I just thought that if there is anyone wanting to get a puppy from them, especially a breeder I'd advise you go elsewhere. I just thought I should warn people. If I wouldn't sold a puppy to a person and their dog had problems and I didn't have a guarantee I would still give them another puppy if they wanted that! I would caution people to watch out for people that don't have a health guarantee. Im not saying they have no good dogs or puppies, but the way they treated us was a way I'd personally never treat someone! Also to get our puppy's problem fixed would be another 2,000. and he can never be used for breeding especially if he can pass this on.


I'm very sorry for your experience with this breeder. I highly recommend to use the other threads listed in this category on finding the proper puppy for your family, from a reputable breeder. I also would hope you would do any clearances on any dogs you plan to breed in the future.


----------



## goldenloverkv

Yes, we do all our dogs clearances here, and won't treat others as we have been treated Lord willing. It's a breeders responsibility to not breed dogs that throw pups with problems like that. We did go to another source and got a wonderful dog. Also didn't pay an arm and a leg for this one vs. the other one. I've heard MUCH more problems about English cream than the American golden.


----------



## sterregold

Both styles have plenty of problems, and the field lines do as well. With the English style I find a higher likelihood of problems from the "breeders" marketing them as "English Cremes" or "rare white European retrievers" or "Rustic Reds" or the rest of that kind of BS.

I find there are more problems from people who market a particular style as if it is something rare or special, because they are generally breeding for extremes of colour etc with no consideration of anything else, often with gaps in clearances, and a poor understanding of the skeletons lurking in the pedigrees they are using because they just breed the dogs they manage to acquire rather than designing a well thought out program which studies genotype and phenotype. I have English lines as part of my program, as well as older North American lines, but I do not call my dogs "creme" or any of that nonsense, because they are Golden Retrievers, plain and simple!!!


----------



## Golden Girls Kennels

(Originally Posted by goldenloverkv 
We got a dog from them, paid over 3,000.00 to get him here (including shipping) and at 5 months he started limping then when we got his hips and elbows x-rayed his hips were fine, but he had elbow displaysia in BOTH elbows (fragmented coronoid process) and (degerative joint disease) we had got this male to use for breeding and according to what information they have on their site it looks like he would be a great addition. But after that happened and we told them they wouldn't give us another dog. They didn't have a guarantee but all other reputable dog breeders I've recently talked with said they would give your another dog if you paid that much only to have a dog which can't be used isn't right to do. We talked with them many times and they won't even give us anything at all. It seems like they are more in it for the money than really helping people get a good dog. I just thought that if there is anyone wanting to get a puppy from them, especially a breeder I'd advise you go elsewhere. I just thought I should warn people. If I wouldn't sold a puppy to a person and their dog had problems and I didn't have a guarantee I would still give them another puppy if they wanted that! I would caution people to watch out for people that don't have a health guarantee. Im not saying they have no good dogs or puppies, but the way they treated us was a way I'd personally never treat someone! Also to get our puppy's problem fixed would be another 2,000. and he can never be used for breeding especially if he can pass this on.)

I would like to tell the truthful side to this story. This breeder bought a puppy from us with NO Guarantee- fully aware there was no guarantee, stated more than once before puppy purchase- they were on a budget and we lowered the price of the pup for them. Unfortunately, their pup did have ED. Before we were given proof of the OFA report or had time to do anything about it- we were threatened and manipulated to the point that we do want to have anything to do with them. I do not work well on terms of threats. We have done nothing wrong, we did not have a guarantee on this puppy and have no obligation to do more. We were willing until we were badgered. We have bred this pair before, all the litter mates have been tested and are fine- we do health clearances on all of our dogs before breeding and will be following these pups and not breeding this pair again. I find this forum to be useful to a point, but when people can come and post half truths it does no one any good. It is unfortunate that this pup was no able to be used as a breeder and that he needs to have a $2,000 surgery, but that also is part of pet ownership. Had this been handled differently by the buyer, the outcome would be different. We have not violated any contract or promise to them- just did not give in to their threats. I see on this site there are mixed feelings about saying we are a "commercial" breeder, and that is fine we can all agree to disagree- it seems that we have been labeled a USDA commercial breeder, even when we do not have a USDA license. Some years we do not even have 1 litter. We love goldens, do all the health testing that is available, import high quality CH bloodlines and love this breed. We do not expect to have everyone like us, but forming opinions based on half truths does not seem like a fair and just way to be labeled either. Thank you for your time.


----------



## nolefan

I am curious, has the dog in question with elbow dysplasia been given the surgery to correct his problems? It's difficult to tell by the posts for sure, which is why I'm asking. Surely the two disputing sides are most concerned that this puppy isn't suffering and I would really hope that both his breeder and his owner would be concerned with his quality of life enough to lay aside differences and work something out. Am I missing something here?



Golden Girls Kennels said:


> (Originally Posted by goldenloverkv
> We got a dog from them, paid over 3,000.00 to get him here (including shipping) and at 5 months he started limping then when we got his hips and elbows x-rayed his hips were fine, but he had elbow displaysia in BOTH elbows (fragmented coronoid process) and (degerative joint disease) we had got this male to use for breeding and according to what information they have on their site it looks like he would be a great addition. But after that happened and we told them they wouldn't give us another dog. They didn't have a guarantee but all other reputable dog breeders I've recently talked with said they would give your another dog if you paid that much only to have a dog which can't be used isn't right to do. We talked with them many times and they won't even give us anything at all. It seems like they are more in it for the money than really helping people get a good dog. I just thought that if there is anyone wanting to get a puppy from them, especially a breeder I'd advise you go elsewhere. I just thought I should warn people. If I wouldn't sold a puppy to a person and their dog had problems and I didn't have a guarantee I would still give them another puppy if they wanted that! I would caution people to watch out for people that don't have a health guarantee. Im not saying they have no good dogs or puppies, but the way they treated us was a way I'd personally never treat someone! Also to get our puppy's problem fixed would be another 2,000. and he can never be used for breeding especially if he can pass this on.)
> 
> I would like to tell the truthful side to this story. This breeder bought a puppy from us with NO Guarantee- fully aware there was no guarantee, stated more than once before puppy purchase- they were on a budget and we lowered the price of the pup for them. Unfortunately, their pup did have ED. Before we were given proof of the OFA report or had time to do anything about it- we were threatened and manipulated to the point that we do want to have anything to do with them. I do not work well on terms of threats. We have done nothing wrong, we did not have a guarantee on this puppy and have no obligation to do more. We were willing until we were badgered. We have bred this pair before, all the litter mates have been tested and are fine- we do health clearances on all of our dogs before breeding and will be following these pups and not breeding this pair again. I find this forum to be useful to a point, but when people can come and post half truths it does no one any good. It is unfortunate that this pup was no able to be used as a breeder and that he needs to have a $2,000 surgery, but that also is part of pet ownership. Had this been handled differently by the buyer, the outcome would be different. We have not violated any contract or promise to them- just did not give in to their threats. I see on this site there are mixed feelings about saying we are a "commercial" breeder, and that is fine we can all agree to disagree- it seems that we have been labeled a USDA commercial breeder, even when we do not have a USDA license. Some years we do not even have 1 litter. We love goldens, do all the health testing that is available, import high quality CH bloodlines and love this breed. We do not expect to have everyone like us, but forming opinions based on half truths does not seem like a fair and just way to be labeled either. Thank you for your time.


----------



## Sally's Mom

I purchased my Cookie, sold as a show/breeding potential puppy. Because she was sold as such, if she did not pass her clearances, then I could buy another pup, but at the pet price. It was moot, as she passed her clearances. Personally, I cannot see how anyone can guarantee a living, breathing being. However when I have had a situation that arose, I refunded the purchase price plain and simple. I think that is fair. It is not in my contract that I will do this, but I have to live with myself and the decisions I make.... I will also take pups back..


----------



## Golden Girls Kennels

We will take any puppy back at any time, this puppy included and give him the surgery. However, all these people want is money and we do not negotiate with threats, bottom line. We do not offer a guarantee, as I cannot control the living situation of the pup and the quality of food and Vet care given Every other pup has passed hips and elbows from the litter. We always take pups or adult dogs back for any reason.


----------



## SheetsSM

Golden Girls Kennels said:


> We will take any puppy back at any time, this puppy included and give him the surgery. However, all these people want is money and we do not negotiate with threats, bottom line. We do not offer a guarantee, as I cannot control the living situation of the pup and the quality of food and Vet care given Every other pup has passed hips and elbows from the litter. We always take pups or adult dogs back for any reason.


I'm confused, the dog in question is now 2 yrs old--only way for the who litter to have passed hips/elbows via OFA.


----------



## Golden Girls Kennels

They have passed OFA Prelims, I apologize.


----------



## Sally's Mom

Well, of course you cannot control the environment, etc. But let us be honest here, if the pup is five months old and it has issues, you need to take some fault. One of the reasons I bred to the first dog that I had a litter from is that I saw pups of his in practice that were incredibly over fed, yet were sound with no dysplasia and no OCD... I find it disingenuous when a breeder defends their self by blaming unsoundness on how the dog was raised... The genetics are a huge component...mine are raised on hardwood and go up and down the stairs. I also raise mine on dasuquin and fish oil...


----------



## mylissyk

Golden Girls Kennels said:


> ... I find this forum to be useful to a point, but when people can come and post half truths it does no one any good. ... We do not expect to have everyone like us, but forming opinions based on half truths does not seem like a fair and just way to be labeled either. Thank you for your time.


You have equal opportunity to come on the board and give your side of the story, as you have done. So the forum has done due justice to both parties, each has gotten to air their side of the issue.


----------



## Sally's Mom

My point is that once an owner has a dog they love, returning it to the breeder is not an option. So that is why I would give money back... A guarantee, in my opinion, which requires returning the dog to the breeder is really no guarantee at all...


----------



## Sally's Mom

And the three pups I got back had nothing to,do,with soundness....or clearances....it was owner issues...


----------



## goldenloverkv

*well taken care of and loved <3*



nolefan said:


> I am curious, has the dog in question with elbow dysplasia been given the surgery to correct his problems? It's difficult to tell by the posts for sure, which is why I'm asking. Surely the two disputing sides are most concerned that this puppy isn't suffering and I would really hope that both his breeder and his owner would be concerned with his quality of life enough to lay aside differences and work something out. Am I missing something here?


We have him now on a completely raw diet with the highest quality vitamins available and he hasn't gotten worse since that, slighly better. If he can be healed the natural way that would be best. (We're not sure if he suffered from malnutrition since he was extremely small when we got him, like maybe he wasn't getting enough food when he was with his puppy siblings.) He's not in pain unless he's taking long walks. He is my little baby and I love this dog, but am very disappointed about not getting what we thought we were getting. I love any Golden though, and he's getting the love he deserves. Other breeders I have worked with which are the most reputable and honest agreed with me that I should let people know the facts, and what happened so if someone else is looking to buy a golden for breeding not to go to Golden girls kennels because something like what happened to me could happen to them. I regret not going to one of those breeders instead of trying to get a "top of the line" "English Cream". I've learned from this mistake!


----------



## SheetsSM

goldenloverkv said:


> We have him now on a completely raw diet with the highest quality vitamins available and he hasn't gotten worse since that, slighly better. If he can be healed the natural way that would be best. (We're not sure if he suffered from malnutrition since he was extremely small when we got him, like maybe he wasn't getting enough food when he was with his puppy siblings.) He's not in pain unless he's taking long walks. He is my little baby and I love this dog, but am very disappointed about not getting what we thought we were getting. I love any Golden though, and he's getting the love he deserves. Other breeders I have worked with which are the most reputable and honest agreed with me that I should let people know the facts, and what happened so if someone else is looking to buy a golden for breeding not to go to Golden girls kennels because something like what happened to me could happen to them. I regret not going to one of those breeders instead of trying to get a "top of the line" "English Cream". I've learned from this mistake!


I would recommend your pups pedigree on K9 data and follow-up and have final OFA clearances performed (and results recorded) so that anyone actually doing their due diligence in researching a pedigree see the results. Though for the life of me, with all of the issues noted throughout this thread and others, I can't see how a reputable golden breeder researching pedigrees and generations of clearances would select this breeder to purchase a pup from to have as a stud in their breeding program.


----------



## Powder

*golden girls*

Unfortunately I just found out about these forums after giving my deposit to the breeder. It seems the reviews for Golden Girls is not favorable. In fact, it seems that reviews on English Goldens or Creme Goldens are not favorable in general.

Does anyone know if this breeder produces healthy dogs? This is my main concern.

I have sent several emails to the breeder after giving my deposit trying to get any information on the litter. The response emails have been extremely short and vague, like "pups are fine". When I expressed my concern about the short emails that did not invite dialog the breeder accused me of having a bad day or of having buyers remorse. I just wanted to know why the original pics had 7 pups and subsequent pics had only 6 pups. It seems that at least one puppy would disagree with the assertion that the "pups are fine". 

All of the other breeders I spoke with required interaction with the owners so I am confused. 

I should also add that I recently requested pics of my dog (at 4 weeks) and was refused. It was explained that she doesn't separate the dogs until 5 weeks but she posted pics on line of two females that hadn't sold at two weeks. At least this email offered an explanation and was more detailed in nature.

In my opinion requesting a pic that takes about 10 seconds to do is a small request when I am paying $2500 for a dog that I have not met or seen.

I am really concerned that I have made a bad choice and I am looking for reassurance if its available.

Thx


----------



## Tahnee GR

Do you have the registered names of the parents of the litter? If so, you can check clearances at Orthopedic Foundation for Animals, or you can list them here and we can check for you.


----------



## mylissyk

I don't know anything about your breeder, but this is a good website to read through if you are looking for a Golden Retriever with English lines in their pedigree.

English Goldens in North America - Litters - Breeders - Stud Dogs


----------



## Tahnee GR

If the dam of the litter is Mahalo, I could not find hip or elbow clearances on her on ofa. It is always possible that her hips were done by PennHip, which does not have an online verfiable database but OFA is the only group in North America certifying elbows.

In addition, her listed eye clearance is way out of date, and you would want to see a hard copy of one done within the last 12 months.

Also, her heart clearance was done by a practitioner, not a cardiologist. 

You can check the offa site for her here:

Orthopedic Foundation for Animals

The 4 clearances you will want to see are OFA or PennHip for hips (if it is PennHip, you will need to ask for a copy of the report) done after 24 months, OFA for elbows done after 24 months, an eye clearance done by a veterinary opthamologist within the last 12 months and a heart clearance from a cardiologist.

If I see OFA hips but no elbow clearance, I generally assume the dog in question did not pass elbows since OFA hips and elbows are virtually always done at the same time.


----------



## Powder

Here is the pedigree for mom and dad

Thank you


Golden Girls My Ono Brah CGC (7/30/2011-)


Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting


Call name:	"Ono"
Gender:	M
Honorifics:	CGC
Country of origin:	USA
Registration:	AKC SR69703102
Breeder:	Jane Pinto
Owner:	Jen and Kate McBride
Microchip/Tattoo #	066087634
Web site:	White Golden Retrievers Dog Breeders golden puppies for sale online
Hip clearance:	OFA GR-109356G25M-VPI
Eye clearance:	CERF GR-374488
Heart clearance:	OFA GR-CA22555/12M/V-VPI
Elbow clearance:	OFA GR-EL29829M25-VPI
Thyroid clearance:	MSU GR-TH2300/12M-VPI
Image linked by:	Kate McBride [Click to edit image]
Pedigree:

Golden Girls My Ono Brah CGC	
JChRus, JCh NRC,ChRus,ChNRC,ChRKF,CACIB Bungee Jumping of the Famous Family	
Int.Ch,Int.Sh.Ch,Lux-Dk-CH-Dt.-VDH-S-Fr.Ch Ashbury Angel Heart TAN Suisse, Sel. B.	
International, French, Luxembourg Ch. Taram du Bois de la Rayere
Ashbury Summer Sun
WW'12. HSCH. HJCh. Dewmist Star of The Blue Hope	
SU(U)CH NORDV-03 NUCH, VWW-08 Erinderry Gaelic Minstrel
SE U(U)CH SE V-11 NORD VV-11 Dewmist Starcadia
ChRuss RENESSANS KARAMBOLINA	
Ch.Rus Complement Marcepan	
Pol. Ch. Nightdream GO GO GO
Complement Neska
Jun.Ch.Rus CHELESTA CHANGRI OT KSJSHI	
Int.Ch, Ch Rus, Blr, Mol WEST FANTASY Staszel
Complement Alfa


Kahn-Canary Confessa Amore CGC (7/21/2012-)

Call name:	"Kina"
Gender:	F
Honorifics:	CGC
Country of origin:	Other
Registration:	Other UKU.0152612
Breeder:	Dyachenko I.O.
Owner:	Jen and Kate McBride
Microchip/Tattoo #	804090010810685
Web site:	White Golden Retrievers Dog Breeders golden puppies for sale online
Hip clearance:	FCI A/B
Eye clearance:	Normal
Heart clearance:	OFA GR-CA24919/15F/P-VPI
Elbow clearance:	0/0
Thyroid clearance:	MSU GR-TH2522/15F-VPI
Image:	(none) [Click to link an image]
Pedigree:

Kahn-Canary Confessa Amore CGC	
CH UA, JCH UA, CH BIR, CH MOL, CH TUR Fairquest Thinking Big	
Combine Make My Day	
Eng. CH. Catcombe Cock a Doodle Doo
Stanroph So Remember Me
Fairquest Daireann	
Erinderry Lochlainn (8*CC, 1*CACIB)
Fairquest Ps I Love You
Tramin Apriori Sorbonne	
V-EW'04, Mlt & IntCh,GrChUa,ChMol/Bye/Rus/Bul/Pol Robin Hood of Glen Sheallag All-ukrainian Winner'03, 05, Winner of RRC	
WW'01,EW'99,02, Mult & IntCh,ChFr/Ger/Lux/Swi/VDH Paudell Pure Passion
Gr Ch Ossien Of Glen Sheallag
GrChUa, ChUa, ChMol, ChBye, ChRus Real World of Glen Sheallag Ukrainian Winner'03	
NUCH SUCH Inassicas Song Of Songs
Trialer Next Please Of Glen Sheallag


----------



## Powder

Tahnee GR said:


> If the dam of the litter is Mahalo, I could not find hip or elbow clearances on her on ofa. It is always possible that her hips were done by PennHip, which does not have an online verfiable database but OFA is the only group in North America certifying elbows.
> 
> In addition, her listed eye clearance is way out of date, and you would want to see a hard copy of one done within the last 12 months.
> 
> Also, her heart clearance was done by a practitioner, not a cardiologist.
> 
> You can check the offa site for her here:
> 
> Orthopedic Foundation for Animals
> 
> The 4 clearances you will want to see are OFA or PennHip for hips (if it is PennHip, you will need to ask for a copy of the report) done after 24 months, OFA for elbows done after 24 months, an eye clearance done by a veterinary opthamologist within the last 12 months and a heart clearance from a cardiologist.
> 
> If I see OFA hips but no elbow clearance, I generally assume the dog in question did not pass elbows since OFA hips and elbows are virtually always done at the same time.


Here is the pedigree for mom and dad

Thank you


Golden Girls My Ono Brah CGC (7/30/2011-)



Call name:	"Ono"
Gender:	M
Honorifics:	CGC
Country of origin:	USA
Registration:	AKC SR69703102
Breeder:	Jane Pinto
Owner:	Jen and Kate McBride
Microchip/Tattoo #	066087634
Web site:	White Golden Retrievers Dog Breeders golden puppies for sale online
Hip clearance:	OFA GR-109356G25M-VPI
Eye clearance:	CERF GR-374488
Heart clearance:	OFA GR-CA22555/12M/V-VPI
Elbow clearance:	OFA GR-EL29829M25-VPI
Thyroid clearance:	MSU GR-TH2300/12M-VPI
Image linked by:	Kate McBride [Click to edit image]
Pedigree:

Golden Girls My Ono Brah CGC	
JChRus, JCh NRC,ChRus,ChNRC,ChRKF,CACIB Bungee Jumping of the Famous Family	
Int.Ch,Int.Sh.Ch,Lux-Dk-CH-Dt.-VDH-S-Fr.Ch Ashbury Angel Heart TAN Suisse, Sel. B.	
International, French, Luxembourg Ch. Taram du Bois de la Rayere
Ashbury Summer Sun
WW'12. HSCH. HJCh. Dewmist Star of The Blue Hope	
SU(U)CH NORDV-03 NUCH, VWW-08 Erinderry Gaelic Minstrel
SE U(U)CH SE V-11 NORD VV-11 Dewmist Starcadia
ChRuss RENESSANS KARAMBOLINA	
Ch.Rus Complement Marcepan	
Pol. Ch. Nightdream GO GO GO
Complement Neska
Jun.Ch.Rus CHELESTA CHANGRI OT KSJSHI	
Int.Ch, Ch Rus, Blr, Mol WEST FANTASY Staszel
Complement Alfa


Kahn-Canary Confessa Amore CGC (7/21/2012-)

Call name:	"Kina"
Gender:	F
Honorifics:	CGC
Country of origin:	Other
Registration:	Other UKU.0152612
Breeder:	Dyachenko I.O.
Owner:	Jen and Kate McBride
Microchip/Tattoo #	804090010810685
Web site:	White Golden Retrievers Dog Breeders golden puppies for sale online
Hip clearance:	FCI A/B
Eye clearance:	Normal
Heart clearance:	OFA GR-CA24919/15F/P-VPI
Elbow clearance:	0/0
Thyroid clearance:	MSU GR-TH2522/15F-VPI
Image:	(none) [Click to link an image]
Pedigree:

Kahn-Canary Confessa Amore CGC	
CH UA, JCH UA, CH BIR, CH MOL, CH TUR Fairquest Thinking Big	
Combine Make My Day	
Eng. CH. Catcombe Cock a Doodle Doo
Stanroph So Remember Me
Fairquest Daireann	
Erinderry Lochlainn (8*CC, 1*CACIB)
Fairquest Ps I Love You
Tramin Apriori Sorbonne	
V-EW'04, Mlt & IntCh,GrChUa,ChMol/Bye/Rus/Bul/Pol Robin Hood of Glen Sheallag All-ukrainian Winner'03, 05, Winner of RRC	
WW'01,EW'99,02, Mult & IntCh,ChFr/Ger/Lux/Swi/VDH Paudell Pure Passion
Gr Ch Ossien Of Glen Sheallag
GrChUa, ChUa, ChMol, ChBye, ChRus Real World of Glen Sheallag Ukrainian Winner'03	
NUCH SUCH Inassicas Song Of Songs
Trialer Next Please Of Glen Sheallag[/QUOTE]


----------



## CharlieBear80

Oh my - I honestly did not look at the pedigree for mom or dad because the sheer lack of communication would be a deal breaker for me. $2500 is an awfully steep price tag as well. I know this is probably not what you want to hear but I would look elsewhere.


----------



## Sally's Mom

The mom is not two yet.. And of the breeder follows the GRCA Code Of Ethics, if you are breeding in the US, you should have OFA+/- Penn Hip clearances at or after two years of age....


----------



## Sally's Mom

Both parents only have practioner heart clearances, which I would never accept. Dad'sCERF is out of date, mom does not have an eye clearance on the OFA website.


----------



## Kmullen

I am sure if you email her about the missing clearances, she will get defensive. Not sure how much your deposit was, but can you walk away from the litter losing the money? Is the deposit non-refundable?


----------



## KeaColorado

I don't know how much your deposit was, but based on the price they are charging for their puppies, you could likely walk away, forfeit your deposit, and purchase a puppy from one of the many other great breeders here in CO with at least one AmCH parent and still spend less than you would have with this breeder. Based on the communications you've had already, what do you think will happen if you run into a health problem with your puppy down the line and need support?


----------



## Powder

KeaColorado said:


> I don't know how much your deposit was, but based on the price they are charging for their puppies, you could likely walk away, forfeit your deposit, and purchase a puppy from one of the many other great breeders here in CO with at least one AmCH parent and still spend less than you would have with this breeder. Based on the communications you've had already, what do you think will happen if you run into a health problem with your puppy down the line and need support?


Every one has brought up very good points. 

I will email the breeder about the missing clearances because I feel its fair to give her every opportunity to respond. 

I am certain I will not get my $500 deposit back. I would feel unsettled about committing to the dog and then leaving the dog without a home if I bailed 3 weeks from the take home date. I am not concerned in the least about the deposit.


----------



## KeaColorado

I'm sorry you're having to make this decision, I hope the breeder responds and gives you some answers about the missing clearances. 

The MileHi Golden Retriever club has a puppy referral list. It seems that the going rate around here is $1500-1700.


----------



## DanaRuns

Powder said:


> I would feel unsettled about committing to the dog and then leaving the dog without a home if I bailed 3 weeks from the take home date. I am not concerned in the least about the deposit.


I am certain that puppy will find a home before you know it.


----------



## Powder

kfayard said:


> I am sure if you email her about the missing clearances, she will get defensive. Not sure how much your deposit was, but can you walk away from the litter losing the money? Is the deposit non-refundable?


Here is the breeders response. 

"All of the clearances are listed on my website- you were free to check them out BEFORE you bought a pup- your lack of planning is not my problem. I am not a member of GRCA- so I do not follow their code of ethics- I breed European goldens- something that many of them do not agree with and that is ok with me.

Kina has a current eye clearance in another country- so it is current. Ono has a current one just waiting on the new number-as for heart- it is a satisfactory clearance to have a practitioner do it- we do not live near a Cardiologist and OFA accepts this- so unless you want to change the practice of the OFA then it is acceptable to me. As stated before we have European dogs and we follow the breeding practices of the Europeans were we get them from and it is acceptable to breed a dog under two in their second cycle."

Apparently my lack of planning is not her problem and I agree. I do hope anyone planning to buy from Golden girls reads this forum and will clearly see what they're dealing with.


----------



## CharlieBear80

Oh my. I'm sorry, I'd still walk away. That's not the kind of person I'd want to have to interact with for the duration of my dog's life. 

I guess you'll get varying opinions on whether clearances from another country or a practitioner heart are acceptable but those would be deal breakers for me as well.


----------



## Sally's Mom

I AM a general practitioner and neither I nor my GP husband clear our dogs' hearts. Years ago, I was going to breed to a dog whose owners had a practitioner clearance on... That was a deal breaker for me, so they took him to a cardiologist. He had a Grade II murmur that was not SAS, but physiologic. Don't trust those clearances.... And if you are a member of no clubs and breeding dogs just to breed them..


----------



## Sally's Mom

And the breeder can't have it both ways, the male has OFA hip and elbow clearances, so why not do the girl? There is no reason to breed a girl that young. Plus if you look at FCI ratings, B1 is FAIR and B2 is borderline.


----------



## cgriffin

Yikes, I would just cut my losses and look elsewhere. You can do so much better than that.


----------



## KeaColorado

There are several reputable members of MileHi Golden Retriever Club in Colorado who incorporate European-style dogs into their lines and have all of the appropriate up to date clearances here in the U.S.

You are about to enter in to an 11-12 year relationship with this person. Trust your gut.


----------



## LJack

Powder said:


> Here is the breeders response.
> I am not a member of GRCA- so I do not follow their code of ethics- I breed European goldens- something that many of them do not agree with and that is ok with me.


It is always interesting to see what other peoples though processes are. Her's unfortunately is very far off base. Why would anyone care what style you breed if you were doing everything a reputable breeder should, including have a little integrity?
Honestly, I would support any breeder who is following the COE in their own country regardless of if the dogs are my taste or not. Their are many field, European, UK and American programs I admire, they all have something in common, they have a specific goal/plan and are doing every thing the way a reputable breed should to get there.
It is sad that she feels that you ignorance of the lack in her program, which she was not upfront about is your fault. She is the expert in this situation and had the information, you were not and she did not take the opportunity to either educate you or tell you her breeding philosophy before she took your money. The sad thing is the wording on her site with the use of "Our pedigrees include many dogs imported from other countries all with confirmation champions, OFA & health clearances." seems designed to mislead.


----------



## goldentemperment

Powder said:


> Here is the breeders response.
> 
> "All of the clearances are listed on my website- you were free to check them out BEFORE you bought a pup- your lack of planning is not my problem. I am not a member of GRCA- so I do not follow their code of ethics- I breed European goldens- something that many of them do not agree with and that is ok with me.


Wow! That's messed up. So to paraphrase her, "I breed European goldens, so I don't need to follow a code of ethics". It would be hilarious if it weren't so recklessly inconsiderate of her dogs, future owners, and the breed in general.


----------



## Kmullen

How did I know she would get defensive?? I would walk away if this is how she treats potential buyers. If you bought a puppy from her, can you imagine what happens if the puppy is fit unhealthy? Do you think she would support you or offer you help??


----------



## Powder

Thank you to everyone who offered information and help with this. In her last email she said she might refund my deposit. She states that i should have done my research upfront; and for once i agree with her. Her quote below

"I will decide today if I will be returning your deposit. You do not seem like a home I want my dogs in. Most people research before they buy and it still sounds like buyers remorse to me."

Her assertion is incorrect... It's actually breeder remorse not buyers remorse.


----------



## goldentemperment

Powder said:


> Thank you to everyone who offered information and help with this. In her last email she said she might refund my deposit. She states that i should have done my research upfront; and for once i agree with her. Her quote below
> 
> "I will decide today if I will be returning your deposit. You do not seem like a home I want my dogs in. Most people research before they buy and it still sounds like buyers remorse to me."
> 
> Her assertion is incorrect... It's actually breeder remorse not buyers remorse.


So, the moment you start applying some scrutiny to her practices, you become unfit for one of her puppies? Talk about a self-serving bias. 

You're better off - but think of all the people who just take her word at face value, and never investigate health claims. That's how unscrupulous breeders get away with saying things like "European lines are healthier than American lines", and the other mumbo-jumbo they spout. 

Then those breeders get to completely disregard the science and empirical evidence behind the GRCA COE, not compete their dogs, not perform health screenings, not get unbiased input on their dogs, breed dogs under the age of 2, etc, etc, etc.


----------



## Kmullen

I love how she makes you feel guilty...maybe because she knows she is not doing everything right. Or MAYBE because you trusted her or tried to?


----------



## CharlieBear80

Powder said:


> Thank you to everyone who offered information and help with this. In her last email she said she might refund my deposit. She states that i should have done my research upfront; and for once i agree with her. Her quote below
> 
> "I will decide today if I will be returning your deposit. You do not seem like a home I want my dogs in. Most people research before they buy and it still sounds like buyers remorse to me."
> 
> Her assertion is incorrect... It's actually breeder remorse not buyers remorse.


Ugggg, that is infuriating. I'm sorry, better that you found out what kind of person you are dealing with beforehand though, right?


----------



## Prism Goldens

Golden Girls Kennels said:


> We will take any puppy back at any time, this puppy included and give him the surgery. However, all these people want is money and we do not negotiate with threats, bottom line. We do not offer a guarantee, as I cannot control the living situation of the pup and the quality of food and Vet care given Every other pup has passed hips and elbows from the litter. We always take pups or adult dogs back for any reason.


I find it totally amazing that you claim to have gotten prelims on every puppy from your litter. And I don't know how to do multiple quotes but in another post you claim to do all clearances, yet you are breeding underaged animals- 
It seems to me that you talk the talk when it suits you but you don't walk the walk such as following a COE that absolutely does apply to you- and anyone else breeding Goldens. Color isn't addressed in the COE - that excuse is nothing but an excuse- the COE is all about health issues, treatment of puppy buyers and good sportsmanship- and whether you belong to GRCA or not 
(though the education you could get from belonging would certainly be useful to you) following a COE is just a right livelihood way to do business. Not following an accepted COE cries out 'rules don't apply to me'. There's nothing in the COE that you can 'not believe in' unless it is getting clearances, treating people respectfully, conducting yourself with honor...


----------



## Powder

Just wanted to let you guys know that Golden girls said they were going to refund my deposit. They reposted the dog I had the deposit on and raised the price from $2400 to $2850. Go figure

Thanks again everyone for your help. I am starting my quest to find a new breeder.


----------



## LJack

Great news!


----------

