# Field question of the week: Breaking on the honor?



## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

A lot of this has to do with judging, as to "how much" wiggle room are you going to accept. 

How do you define breaking? 
Indicating an intent to retrieve prior to being sent.

How do you define controlled break?
A controlled break is called when the dog has gone (made an attempt to retrieve) or the handler has indicated the dog has made an attempt to retrieve, and the handler regains control of the dog within the limits previously set by the judges.

What is the difference between a controlled break at a hunt test, field trial, or working certificate (WCX)? There is no set difference. The Judges will define what the limits are for the specific test in question. Go past the break line (where ever that ends up being) and you're out.


How should a dog be scored if they have a controlled break?
That is test specific, and individually determined by each set of judges.

How do you train to avoid a break on the honor?
Well, Sit means "Sit". It doesn't matter where. When you give the Sit command the dog better sit and remain sitting until given another command.

 How does a breaking dog affect the dog at the line?
An unsteady dog is at a tremendous disadvantage when it comes to accuracy in marking and remembering the falls. It can really mess up a dog. 

How do you train your dog if it is interrupted by a breaking dog and has to go back to the holding blind?

Sit means "Sit". You need to do what you need to to ensure that the dog sits when ordered to do so, no matter what. Set high standards for obedience and enforce that standard consistently. Watch and study the dogs muscles and tendons in the front legs. Those muscles have to load up before the dog can move them. When you see those muscles load up you better be reinforcing your "Sit" command.


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## Sweese (Sep 25, 2013)

How do you define breaking? 
Leaving for a retrieve before being sent

How do you define controlled break? 
Moving forward and then stopping on their own, or from a command

What is the difference between a controlled break at a hunt test, field trial, or working certificate (WCX)? 
It is best to seek out the rule books or licensed judges for how each is handled. Also, expect some differences between judges. I have seen some controlled breaks that a handler thought was a fail and the judge said it was ok.

How should a dog be scored if they have a controlled break? see above

How do you train to avoid a break on the honor? 
Your retriever needs to understand that not every bird needs to be retrieved, that not every bird is their's, and sit/stay is stay. The same training is needed to prepare your dog for missed birds. This needs to be worked in to your training from the start. In those young puppy days, this starts with your dog on stay, walk out in front, toss a bumper, say "stay"(traffic cop hand signal), and then go pickup the bumper. Repeat once or twice and then allow your dog to retrieve one of the bumpers. I like to use a command such as "leave it" or "no bird". Over time, you do not need to give any verbal command. I will not cover corrections. Use a pinch collar or e-collar as you see fit. Remember the old adage, "Train, do not test". Be prepared for your dog to break and be ready to bring in correction as needed - "No - stay!". Of course, keep that praise going on those bumpers you actually want your dog to retrieve. If your dog gets sticky and does not want to actually retrieve when sent, due to the corrections on breaking, mix in more retrieves and more praise before going back to the "no bird" drills. 

As part of honoring, it is important for your dog to learn to be sent on name for a retrieve. Obviously, if both handlers are saying "fetch" and your dogs are 3 feet apart, there will be some drama. Once your dog has mastered "fetch", just add "dog name" before "fetch". Use your voice inflection and say "fetch" quickly after saying your dog's name, to aid your dog on making the connection. Drop "fetch" once your dog learns to retrieve by name.

When bringing in another dog, it is best to teach honoring with a finished level dog, preferably one that is very steady and also honors. If done with a younger dog, make sure the other dog is on a lead or check cord(like yours). Start with the dogs far apart, about 15 to 20 feet, since some training partners yell out commands.  At this point, you can alternate retrieves between dogs. Remember, to expect your dog to break. Be ready to stop and correct your dog as needed. From here, you progress by moving the dogs closer together, using real birds, poppers (shotshell blanks), etc..

How does a breaking dog affect the dog at the line? 
All kinds of different ways!

How do you train your dog if it is interrupted by a breaking dog and has to go back to the holding blind? 
This depends if the break is controlled or if the other dog actually retrieved the bird. If the later, use a calm "no-bird", "heal", and walk back to the holding blind. You should also seek direction or next steps from the judge(s).
[/QUOTE]


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Ok, to add to that question. You're a handler and you're walking to the line at a test/trial. There is an honoring dog. This is on water. You know that it's even harder for a dog to sit-stay on water honor. So what do you do if the honor dog breaks as the first flyer goes down and hits the water, and the honoring dog jumps in and swims after the bird? You don't want your dog to break. You don't want your dog to attack the breaking dog. You just want your dog to sit and then quietly walk with you back to the holding blind and wait for instruction from the judges. How do you train for that and how do you mentally prepare for that potential problem?


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

> How do you define breaking?


As it is defined in the Regulations and Guidelines for AKC Hunting Tests for Retrievers:

Guide Part V 1
It is generally understood that a break occurs when a dog makes a movement, that, in the opinion of the Judges, indicates a deliberate intent to retrieve without having been ordered to do so, and cannot be brought under control by the handler.



> How do you define controlled break?


As it is defined in the Regulations and Guidelines for AKC Hunting Tests for Retrievers:

Guide Part V 2
A controlled break is generally when a dog leaves to retrieve before being sent, but is quickly brought under control by verbal command or whistle and returns to the handler. A controlled break in Master calls for a "0" score.



> What is the difference between a controlled break at a hunt test, field trial, or working certificate (WCX)?
> How should a dog be scored if they have a controlled break?


You are allowed a controlled break ONLY in the Senior stake. No other stake allows for anything but a "0" or drop for a controlled break. 



> How do you train to avoid a break on the honor?


I do not train honors until the dog is steady at the line and very familiar with a correction for breaking. My honor procedure is to heel the dog into the honor box, face the dog's right side with my arms crossed, and say "NO - SIT"



> How does a breaking dog affect the dog at the line?


In any manner of ways, from not at all, to complete disaster.



> How do you train your dog if it is interrupted by a breaking dog and has to go back to the holding blind?


As in any other no-bird occasion. 



> Ok, to add to that question. You're a handler and you're walking to the line at a test/trial. There is an honoring dog. This is on water. You know that it's even harder for a dog to sit-stay on water honor. So what do you do if the honor dog breaks as the first flyer goes down and hits the water, and the honoring dog jumps in and swims after the bird? You don't want your dog to break. You don't want your dog to attack the breaking dog. You just want your dog to sit and then quietly walk with you back to the holding blind and wait for instruction from the judges. How do you train for that and how do you mentally prepare for that potential problem?


Not sure if I understand the question completely. If you have not sent your dog already, then you don't have to do anything. The handler of the honor dog needs to get their dog back. If you send your dog and the honor dog breaks, then both handlers have to get their dogs back.

By the time you make it to Senior/Master and beyond, where you will have honoring situations, your dog needs to be COMPLETELY TRAINED to not only be steady and avoid such situations, but to not have training issues like "more likely to break on water" "attack the breaking dog" or trouble returning to the holding blind. This should be a fully trained, finished retriever that is under control. Now does this always happen? No of course, issues like this arise commonly at tests. If you feel like your dog could be out of control in situations like this, then DO NOT ENTER A TEST. This is a TRAINING issue, not a testing issue.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

But here is a change to breaking the honor at the WCX (I copied and pasted from a GRCA resolution earlier this week):


Resolution 15-69 (Page 2)


In the Section AUTOMATIC ELIMINATION

4. Honor. Insert the following paragraph after the first paragraph:

An honoring dog that breaks and is brought under control without interfering with the working
dog will not be eliminated. The AKC Field Trial Rules and Standard Procedure for Retrievers,
allows controlled breaks in all stakes except all age stakes. They do not differentiate between
working dog and honoring dog.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

That must be new per GRCA. Up until now they have followed FT guidelines which state you CANNOT talk to the dog on honor. So unless your dog is a mind-reader, you are not allowed a controlled break on honor.

There is no honor in a derby so that is moot point. In a Qual you are not allowed to talk to the dog on honor, so controlled breaks are not allowed. ???


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Yes this just came out this week. I get the national emails since I'm on my local GR board.


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## Sweese (Sep 25, 2013)

Alaska7133 said:


> Ok, to add to that question. You're a handler and you're walking to the line at a test/trial. There is an honoring dog. This is on water. You know that it's even harder for a dog to sit-stay on water honor. So what do you do if the honor dog breaks as the first flyer goes down and hits the water, and the honoring dog jumps in and swims after the bird? You don't want your dog to break. You don't want your dog to attack the breaking dog. You just want your dog to sit and then quietly walk with you back to the holding blind and wait for instruction from the judges. How do you train for that and how do you mentally prepare for that potential problem?


You must train honoring around water, including splashing birds right in front of your dog...and the honor dog. Use birds and guns, holding blinds, judges, buckets, etc..


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

According The Judges Manual a controlled break is permissible in Derby and it is to be considered a minor or moderate fault. A controlled break in Qual is to be judged more seriously from a moderate fault to a major fault. As far as Honoring in Qual and All Age any forward movement that interferes with the running dog calls for elimination


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

Claudia M said:


> According The Judges Manual a controlled break is permissible in Derby and it is to be considered a minor or moderate fault. A controlled break in Qual is to be judged more seriously from a moderate fault to a major fault. As far as Honoring in Qual and All Age any forward movement that interferes with the running dog calls for elimination


Yep!
Controlled breaks in the Derby have cost me several Derby points. In one trial, my wild-child went from first to fourth because of a controlled break (and this was according to one of the judges who told me after the trial) ... and that dog missed the Derby List by ONE POINT!


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Well there are two kinds of dogs....

Those that break and those that are going to break.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Swampcollie said:


> Well there are two kinds of dogs....
> 
> Those that break and those that are going to break.


Same goes for cheating. 

Those that cheat and those that WILL cheat!


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

Goes back to basic obedience. There is no Sit-Stay. Sit means sit. In training that is what a heeling stick is for. Dog moves one inch on honor, instant correction. I look at their hips and also facial expressions. They will tell you they are going to break before they do it. And if they move? Correction!!!!! Heeling stick should be behind you for a tap on the butt. You can close them off by your stance I face them sideways facing them. This ain't your turn. My .02


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## FTGoldens (Dec 20, 2012)

And then there are hard dogs ... those are the dogs who, although they won't move a muscle in training, will "come up" at a trial or test and rocket off the line before you can get the entire word "NO" uttered.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

In the obedience trial arena, we call them "ring-wise". Meaning they know exactly what they can get away with and when.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

FTGoldens said:


> And then there are hard dogs ... those are the dogs who, although they won't move a muscle in training, will "come up" at a trial or test and rocket off the line before you can get the entire word "NO" uttered.


LOL - the younger they are when you test them the more test-wise they get.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Claudia, where did you get that information? I have never heard that a dog tested younger will be more of a breaker. Also if that's the case how long should I wait to run a dog and at what age? So it would seem to me then that derby dogs (which can't run after the age of 2) would be prone to breaking more than other dogs later in life. That's what it appears you are saying.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Alaska7133 said:


> Claudia, where did you get that information? I have never heard that a dog tested younger will be more of a breaker. Also if that's the case how long should I wait to run a dog and at what age? So it would seem to me then that derby dogs (which can't run after the age of 2) would be prone to breaking more than other dogs later in life. That's what it appears you are saying.


Just word of mouth Stacey; talking to people who have been at this for much longer than I have been. Also if you see most Derby dogs are ran mostly after they reach 12 months of age. Part of it is maturity and part of it is the slow calculated progression of training. 
And no, I did not say that, you can read in what I said whatever you want. 

Each dog is different and each dog matures at different levels, heck - some never mature - just like people. 

So there is no set age in which to test your dog. But it is hard to re-train a dog that has become test-wise.


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## Radarsdad (Apr 18, 2011)

Claudia M said:


> LOL - the younger they are when you test them the more test-wise they get.


Very true. Got scolded by the judges for pulling a dog and corrected him right there (he was still in contention). You may blow a fee but the rules apply test or no test! Came back and ran this one so they could run the last dog. He got the message and nailed it.


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