# Need Help: Reputable Cream Breeder



## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

It sounds like you've done a good job reading - there are breeders recommended on threads on this forum -
use your list and search each one here and see what the feed back is. Most will have been discussed or mentioned here at some point. Ask how the breeder raises their puppies and socializes them. Will they have multiple litters on the ground at the same time? When you hear back from the breeder about possible litters planned, post the registered names of the dogs and someone can help you verify clearances and take a look at them for making sure they are there for a couple generations. Does the breeder compete in AKC or Canadian Kennel Club shows or compete in Obedience or hunt tests? This is a great way to weed out bad breeders. Also when a site says "English Cream" it's a sign that they are trying to market to sell puppies. Serious hobby breeders just don't talk about their 'cream or creme' colored dogs. It's a process to find a good breeder and if you're hearing back from some, then keep talking to them. What are you hearing from them?


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## CaliGolden (Aug 20, 2017)

@nolefan - Thank you so much for your reply. I am trying my best but it is definitely overwhelming haha. I have tried searching each breeder on this forum but some have mixed reviews and others are mentioned in threads that are a couple years old so I'm just trying to get updated opinions. I will definitely go through all of them again to get a second look. 

I have heard back from:

Cedar Goldens - I sent in my puppy application and they said they will have puppies in Oct/Nov but they didn't tell me the parents' names. I emailed them back a couple of days ago but still haven't heard a reply.

Overlook Goldens - they said they should have some puppies ready to go home in Jan/Feb and the mothers would be Overlooks A Faraway Glimpse of Skye "Skylar" and Overlook A Glorious Sunday in Summer "Summer". They didn't mention who the sire would be but according to their website they may breed Skylar with Overlooks Handsome Honcho Brown "Honcho". They asked me to fill out their questionnaire and I sent it back to them a couple of days ago as well but as of now still no reply.

Tanglewood Goldens - all they said was to please fill out their questionnaire as that is the first step. They gave me no details as to when they may have their next litter or who the parents would be. I did fill out the questionnaire and sent it in a couple days ago as well but as of now still no reply.

Golden Reflection Kennel - I got a call back from them and they said that they will be breeding Perfect Peace Sandy Bay "Bay" and Golden Reflection Pretty Little Angel Eyes "Ramsey" but I don't remember if they told me who the sire would be. It could be Perfect Peace Grant Me Courage "Courage" as he sired their last litters. They said they were going to be very busy for the next couple of weeks so I will call them back later to ask them more questions then.

Thank you so much for all of your help! - Brittany


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Joanne Cava at Tanglewood is someone who shows her dogs and does the clearances and testing. She is also a very nice person which is a plus. I would imagine she gets a gazillion emails from people so don't be discouraged if you don't hear from her. 

Unfortunately you really need the registered names of both intended parents of a litter to get feedback. In theory you would not usually see someone breeding the same male to the same females over and over, if you do, it's typically a sign of a puppy farmer. Occasionally it could happen if the breeder had a small litter or really had a rock star litter she wanted to try again, otherwise typically you wouldn't see repeats. You would also question why a breeder continuously bred her own males to her own females, if they're trying hard to improve their dogs it would be unusual for them to find exactly the strengths they need for a bitch without looking around. It can be a red flag. 

You could also try Magnolia Goldens in MS or Malagold (This should be gorgeous light puppies and the breeder has been around forever Rooster and Kinje Litter)

Kernow would be another of interest to me if I wasn't willing to compromise on color. ( I will remind you one more time that really good breeders are going for structure, health and temperament and color is of no importance to them ultimately as long as it's a shade of gold.)


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## CaliGolden (Aug 20, 2017)

@nolefan - Thank you so much for your help. I really appreciate it!

I will call Joanne of Tanglewood tomorrow and see if she received my questionnaire. I would call today but I don't want to bother anyone on a Sunday.

Thank you I will definitely be aware of the red flags.

I will check out Magnolia Goldens and Malagold as well!

I'll look into Kernow again too. I am willing to go for a light golden or blonde color, I just really loved the cream.

I will keep posting any updated information I get.

Thanks again! - Brittany


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## CaliGolden (Aug 20, 2017)

@nolefan - I was looking at Malagold's Rooster & Kinje litter and there are some things I have questions about. Rooster's eye clearance is over a year out of date and Kinje doesn't have eye or heart clearances. Rooster is a Ichthyosis carrier but it doesn't say if Kinje is...


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

CaliGolden said:


> @nolefan - I was looking at Malagold's Rooster & Kinje litter and there are some things I have questions about. Rooster's eye clearance is over a year out of date and Kinje doesn't have eye or heart clearances. Rooster is a Ichthyosis carrier but it doesn't say if Kinje is...


You'll just have to ask. I'd bet Rooster probably does have a more recent eye exam that wasn't sent in. And Kinje might be ICT clear, but they didn't send the fee into OFA to have it posted.


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## CaliGolden (Aug 20, 2017)

@ArchersMom - Ok thank you! I will definitely call tomorrow and ask


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Ugh, sorry those aren't there like they should be. I promise that Rooster has an updated eye clearance, I have a friend who bred her girl to him this months and she would make sure that was in place. I would definitely call about Kinje, even when a breeder is super reputable, you always ask about clearances, no matter what. If they aren't there, then no thank you. Rooster is a Chuckanut dog and they are over on your coast. You might see if they have any closer breedings planned, they do field work with their dogs and would be worth looking into. Our Dogs ? Chuckanut Retrievers


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## CaliGolden (Aug 20, 2017)

@nolefan - Thank you so much! I will check it all out


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## u0643262 (Oct 19, 2017)

Hi, I am a new member so hello to everyone! I am also in the process of finding a golden. It will be my first golden retriever. I did not want to start a new post as this relates to this current thread. Has anyone checked out Spring Hill Goldens? Springhill Goldens - Springhill Goldens. I am sure it is a flop but I wanted to offer the information. I am new to this but I could not find any OFA info so it probably is not a good choice. Just trying to help.


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## gold4me (Mar 12, 2006)

If you are on FaceBook check out https://www.facebook.com/SonoGrato/. They are located in Arizona.


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

u0643262 said:


> Hi, I am a new member so hello to everyone! I am also in the process of finding a golden. It will be my first golden retriever. I did not want to start a new post as this relates to this current thread. Has anyone checked out Spring Hill Goldens? Springhill Goldens - Springhill Goldens. I am sure it is a flop but I wanted to offer the information. I am new to this but I could not find any OFA info so it probably is not a good choice. Just trying to help.



I would avoid Spring Hill Goldens. They don't post registered names or links to clearances for their dogs. If they had full clearances like the website claims they would be likely to share the information. I was able to find Lucy and Charlie on OFA. Neither dog has full clearances. https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=1813577


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## u0643262 (Oct 19, 2017)

Thank you I assumed they were not an option. Has anyone personally used Perfect Peace Golden Retrievers out of South Dakota? Thank you for any help or tips in advance. Angela is breeding Agape and Victory. Victory is not yet on the breeders website.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

If these are the dogs, she is breeding an ichth carrier to an ichth carrier, so some of the pups will be affected. While I might do this, in order for me to take that risk, both dogs would have to be outstanding ie, Best in Show winner, OTCH, FTCH/AFTCH and all puppies would have to be tested before being placed.

Pedigree: Perfect Peace Faith Is The Victory

Pedigree: Perfect Peace The Greatest is Love

If Victory is this guy, no info on ichth and only heart and cardiac are listed. It says he was rehomef due to not reaching standard.

Pedigree: Perfect Peace Faith Is Victory


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## u0643262 (Oct 19, 2017)

Thank you for the reply and information. Yes, these are the dogs being breed. I had found the breeder off of englishgoldens.net seems odd how they got on the list of reputable breeders. Based on what you were saying you would not get a dog from here as there seems to be a very likely risk that these dogs will be a carrier but could have the skin disorder unless the breeder tests each puppy for ichth.

This is what the breeder has told me so far in an email. I also attached the pictures of Victory attached to the email she sent.

"Victory is my young male, who is not yet up on my website. He is a full English Golden, but is Golden in color. He was the only male in his litter from semen that came from Canada and I got him from another breeder. Both of his sisters, and mother are cream but his daddy has some color. His color actually comes from a World Champion dog that the Canadian breeder imported semen on from Finland. But when bred to a cream female (like Agape) he produces almost all cream pups. But there is a chance to have one or two with some color like him. 

I have bred him to Mercy in the past and Mercy has a bit of color herself compared to Agape. And I only got two pups with color out of 10.

Anyway, please find his photos attached to this email.

If you have any other questions please do let me know!


Angela"

From your response I am getting a big fat no unless I call the breeder and ask her why she is breeding an itch career with an itch carrier. Or more importantly as she has already breed Victory with Mercy follow up that those puppies have no itch? Thanks again to all who are helping.


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

The Agape listed on k9data is 8, almost 9 years old. I would feel very uncomfortable breeding a bitch that old. I don't think AKC will register a litter to a dam that's 9 or older?It's also very odd that the breeder used the same registered name twice.


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## u0643262 (Oct 19, 2017)

this is all very disturbing how on earth is the breeder on the reputable breeder site?


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

[/QUOTE]From your response I am getting a big fat no unless I call the breeder and ask her why she is breeding an itch career with an itch carrier. Or more importantly as she has already breed Victory with Mercy follow up that those puppies have no itch? Thanks again to all who are helping.[/QUOTE]

I’m not sure what your question means? But you can’t generalize ichth from one litter to another. It is statistics.


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## u0643262 (Oct 19, 2017)

According to the Pedigree information, kindly provided by Archers Mom, the Breeder of interest has mated Victory and Agape who both are carrier of ?itch?. I am assuming that if you mated two dogs who are both carriers of itch than most of the puppies would be carriers or worse have this terrible skin problem. Correct me if I am wrong as I am new to this. But if you read the previous posts the Breeder, according to the breeder website, is using a nine year old bitch to have a litter that seems too old to have a litter. Therefore, I think I should continue my search for a reputable breeder.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Ichthyosis is simple recessive. Statistically speaking each puppy in the litter would have A 50% chance of being a carrier, a 25% chance of being normal and a 25% chance of being affected.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

u0643262 said:


> this is all very disturbing how on earth is the breeder on the reputable breeder site?


To be perfectly honest, there is really no such thing as a "reputable breeder site" that is 100% safe and guaranteed that each and every litter will have been planned by someone who has never cut a corner or justified something to themselves that to an unbiased observer is against the GRCA Code of Ethics. It's simply not possible for the breed police (yes, I'm making the term up) to make sure every breeder is perfect.

The fact of the matter is that if someone is insisting on 'English Cream" dogs, that list is probably one of the easier resources to use containing some acceptable choices. It is ALWAYS up to the individual to ask to see clearances and genetic information on any litter they're interested in no matter who the breeder is.

The terms "English Cream" and "reputable breeder" don't even belong in the same sentence. 99.9% of the time you will not find a great hobby breeder who calls their dogs "English Cream or Creme" ANDshows or trains and competes with her dogs in performance, does all the correct health testing, raises puppies in the home with hands on attention for the entire 8 weeks, and isn't breeding litter upon litter upon litter for money. There are some wonderful breeders who like the style of the lighter dogs but they are few and far between and are not using cheesy marketing terms to sell puppies.


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## gold4me (Mar 12, 2006)

I forgot to add Sono Grato European Golden website before. https://sonogratogoldens.com I know she does all the health clearances and does testing for Ichthyosis. You might want to check her website out and she is very easy to talk with about what she does with her puppies.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

If health is important to you I highly recommend researching up on it. No matter who you buy from it is on you to verify claims. 

Also it is important to know what should be tested and when. A lot of breeders in this style especially if they market Cream do not follow the stringent testing in US and instead try to pass off underage foreign health schemes as “clearances”. If the dogs and breeder are in the US they should if they are responsible meet the testing in our country. To offten underage dogs are breed with missing or deficient health certifications and a premium price is charged for very little value in health certifications and competition achievements. Become a educated and savvy shopper so no one can exploit you lack of knowledge. 

Be especially careful of breeders who have a great "talk" but don't have all the clearances on OFA (www.ofa.org). Here are some great sites run by our national non-profit expert organizations. 

https://www.grca.org/find-a-golden/begin-the-search/health-issues-introduction-section-a/
http://www.ofa.org
Canine Health Information Center: CHIC Information

I will also add some infographics and screenshots that might be helpful.


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## HaliaGoldens (Jul 13, 2008)

u0643262 said:


> According to the Pedigree information, kindly provided by Archers Mom, the Breeder of interest has mated Victory and Agape who both are carrier of ?itch?. I am assuming that if you mated two dogs who are both carriers of itch than most of the puppies would be carriers or worse have this terrible skin problem. Correct me if I am wrong as I am new to this. But if you read the previous posts the Breeder, according to the breeder website, is using a nine year old bitch to have a litter that seems too old to have a litter. Therefore, I think I should continue my search for a reputable breeder.


 @u0643262 Where are you located? If you're looking for a puppy from European lines, I might be able to direct you to a reputable breeder in your area, or further away if you're willing to travel.
Robin


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

*Sono Grato European Goldens*



gold4me said:


> I forgot to add Sono Grato European Golden website before. https://sonogratogoldens.com I know she does all the health clearances and does testing for Ichthyosis. You might want to check her website out and she is very easy to talk with about what she does with her puppies.


Sadly I have to say that this breeder is not one I could recommend. It really is a shame because her previous generation had fully verifiable health certifications, were of age when bred (as far as I know) and she had atleast shown in IABCA. 

This generation seems to indicate letting the hallmarks of responsible breeding slip. Her current litter does not have full and verifiable health certifications that meet the USA standards. 

It was also accomplished by breeding two under age dogs together. The sire was 15 mons old and the dam was less than a month under 24 months of age which is the youngest age hip and elbow testing in the US should be done. These types of breeding decisions along with the lack of competing in any dog sport and seeming to breed based on color are not what I would expect from a responsible breeder. 

The mother was bred without a heart certification at all though has since had it done just 31 day before her puppies were born. If her hips and elbows were tested prior, they are deficient in the US and if after she was bred without them. So at the time of breeding the only verifiable and appropriate health certification she had was her eyes, that is one out of the core four. Her mother owned by this breeder has the core four so she knows how to get full and verifiable health certifications but is choosing not to for this generation.

The Dad has only verifiable certifications for heart and eye. His hip and elbow through BVA are not verifiable and are deficient in the US because he was not 24 months at the time of evaluation. 

This is why as I posted above it is critical to get educated. The word “clearance” is defined by the person saying it. If that person thinks a verbal from their pet vet that their dog is healthy, it means nothing. Learn how to verify health claims because buying a puppy from parents with full and verifiable health tested parents is more difficult than it should be.


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## Altairss (Sep 7, 2012)

I almost wonder if this was an opps litter? Nope never mind they planned their words and used him twice



LJack said:


> Sadly I have to say that this breeder is not one I could recommend. It really is a shame because her previous generation had fully verifiable health certifications, were of age when bred (as far as I know) and she had atleast shown in IABCA.
> 
> This generation seems to indicate letting the hallmarks of responsible breeding slip. Her current litter does not have full and verifiable health certifications that meet the USA standards.
> 
> ...


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

HaliaGoldens said:


> @u0643262 Where are you located? If you're looking for a puppy from European lines, I might be able to direct you to a reputable breeder in your area, or further away if you're willing to travel.
> Robin


On that, I was curious so went to your site- did you import frozen or fresh chilled on Nielson? How hard was that to do? (looking your upcoming litter pedigree). Also, the C1 rating on his hips- is that not OFA mild?


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

LJack said:


> Sadly I have to say that this breeder is not one I could recommend. It really is a shame because her previous generation had fully verifiable health certifications, were of age when bred (as far as I know) and she had atleast shown in IABCA.
> 
> This generation seems to indicate letting the hallmarks of responsible breeding slip. Her current litter does not have full and verifiable health certifications that meet the USA standards.
> 
> ..


I read the breeder's whole long 'how I do things' thread here- it sounded good- but really, what makes people HAVE to do a breeding when they do? There is zero reason to use an underaged stud dog on a bitch who is not herself on her last breeding (and I don't think there is a reason even then in most cases, but do think there could be in some cases but not ever in a non-competitive scenario).
And why do people do this? It is so easy to just follow the rules. Start making exceptions, and then down that slope slide ye...


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

u0643262, the reality of it is this- because the whole EC GR thing became somewhat of a marketing ploy, and many people began breeding dogs solely for coat color with little concern for anything else- even simple obedience titles or field titles, and if they show at all, they do IABCA shows which are set up so that every single dog there can be an (tah-dah!) international champion in only two days- these are not reputable breeders. They often use a scheme for hips that allows them to get a clearance number at as young as 4months old. They do this through a non-verifiable agency. They breed to their own stud dogs who may or may not complement their bitches and the breeder who does no competition has no idea whether the dog fits the standard or what faults need correcting because remember- they are int ch...which means nothing to most people who are involved in dogs other than practice.
There ARE reputable breeders of this type in the US, but they are few and far between.


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## u0643262 (Oct 19, 2017)

Hi all thanks for all the information and help. I am located in Kansas City, MO. I am willing to travel. When I first ran into this forum and started reading it was obvious that I was going to have to travel. I do not have a passport but I am considering Canada as it seems I am finding less breeders in the US. I did get ahold of Pam at Kernow Golden?s. She is going to have a litter ready in March/April if everything goes as planned. So far she has been my favorite breeder. Although, she has no idea which dogs she will be breeding. I did talk to Sono Grato and she was doing a lot of the same things as Kernow. Others have ruled Sono Grato out if you read the previous posts. When I read older posts that mentioned Kernow, members talked positively and approved the breeder. The search continues.....


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## HaliaGoldens (Jul 13, 2008)

Prism Goldens said:


> On that, I was curious so went to your site- did you import frozen or fresh chilled on Nielson? How hard was that to do? (looking your upcoming litter pedigree). Also, the C1 rating on his hips- is that not OFA mild?


 @Prism Goldens Hi! I met you earlier this year at the show in Brooksville with Anni (I'm one of the other Robins in MFGRC). I imported frozen on Nielson. He passed away last year. I am friends with Nielson's owner, and the breeder of my girl (Anni), and they recommended him as a good match. It takes advance planning, but I have a good repro. vet here, and they overnighted the shipment from the Netherlands. In the Netherlands they use A, B, C, etc. instead of the excellent, good, fair the OFA uses. Acceptable ratings for breeding are A, B, and C. Since Nielson has been around for over a decade and sired many litters, I was able to look over how he produced hips, and I'm confident in the soundness of the combination. Both of his parents have A hips and he's not passed along problems in other combinations with lines similar to Anni's. The two breeders who are advising me have worked with these lines for many generations now, so I trust their judgment as well.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I remember meeting you (did you enter two classes w one? That's who I am thinking are)- I looked on OFA and was curious.

So was it super costly to ship frozen from another country? And do you have to fill out special paperwork because it's bodily fluids? how long does it take (in other words, would you have to get it here ahead of need, instead of ship when you will need it?)


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## HaliaGoldens (Jul 13, 2008)

Prism Goldens said:


> I remember meeting you (did you enter two classes w one? That's who I am thinking are)- I looked on OFA and was curious.
> 
> So was it super costly to ship frozen from another country? And do you have to fill out special paperwork because it's bodily fluids? how long does it take (in other words, would you have to get it here ahead of need, instead of ship when you will need it?)


Yes, I entered her in two classes. Wanted extra ring time for practice....mostly for me. 
The shipping cost was 950 euros, and they sent it FedEx, so it ended up getting here in one day. I was told it can take up to four days, depending on the method and how long it takes in customs. Also they don't ship over weekends. The cryolab over there filled out whatever paperwork was needed for it to clear customs. Next time I do it, I'll probably just ship it well in advance, because the vet will store it short term, and I won't have to stress it getting here on the right day.


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## HaliaGoldens (Jul 13, 2008)

u0643262 said:


> Hi all thanks for all the information and help. I am located in Kansas City, MO. I am willing to travel. When I first ran into this forum and started reading it was obvious that I was going to have to travel. I do not have a passport but I am considering Canada as it seems I am finding less breeders in the US. I did get ahold of Pam at Kernow Golden?s. She is going to have a litter ready in March/April if everything goes as planned. So far she has been my favorite breeder. Although, she has no idea which dogs she will be breeding. I did talk to Sono Grato and she was doing a lot of the same things as Kernow. Others have ruled Sono Grato out if you read the previous posts. When I read older posts that mentioned Kernow, members talked positively and approved the breeder. The search continues.....


Cedar Goldens are good. They're in Wisconsin. Worth checking to see if they have litter plans. 
http://www.cedargoldens.com/page-1.html

Tanglewood Goldens is in South Carolina, and she's planning a litter this fall. 
http://www.tanglewoodgoldens.com/index.html

Kernow Goldens looks good too. I'd be curious to see who she's going to breed.


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## u0643262 (Oct 19, 2017)

Thanks HaliaGoldens,

Cedar Goldens went for an ultra sound yesterday to confirm pregnancy so I am waiting to hear back from them. Pam from Kernow emailed me today I emailed her back to please keep me in the loop for her future litters. I have not contacted tangle wood but I will as I am visiting North Carolina currently. Halia you breed goldens as well correct? Thanks again for the post.


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## HaliaGoldens (Jul 13, 2008)

u0643262 said:


> Thanks HaliaGoldens,
> 
> Cedar Goldens went for an ultra sound yesterday to confirm pregnancy so I am waiting to hear back from them. Pam from Kernow emailed me today I emailed her back to please keep me in the loop for her future litters. I have not contacted tangle wood but I will as I am visiting North Carolina currently. Halia you breed goldens as well correct? Thanks again for the post.


You're welcome. I do breed occasionally; I just sent you a private message.


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## Blessed with Gold (Mar 10, 2016)

It's unfortunate a American Golden Retriever breeder, who lives in my vicinity, wrote a post that was defamatory, inaccurate, and misleading. I breed imported European Golden Retrievers, follow KC standards and incorporate important health standards of the GRCA that are backed by science. I beleive there is also good merit and science backing up breeding standards in other countries' kennel clubs. All Sono Grato European Golden Retriever puppies will always be progeny from parents who have passing health clearances. And so it is.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Blessed with Gold said:


> It's unfortunate a American Golden Retriever breeder, who lives in my vicinity, wrote a post that was defamatory, inaccurate, and misleading. I breed imported European Golden Retrievers, follow KC standards and incorporate important health standards of the GRCA that are backed by science. I beleive there is also good merit and science backing up breeding standards in other countries' kennel clubs. All Sono Grato European Golden Retriever puppies will always be progeny from parents who have passing health clearances. And so it is.


Maybe you can explain to us the BVA elbow scheme- Freya (current litter dam) according to k9data has a 4/4 score. Here is what it says about the BVA scheme on the KC site- "Ideally dogs with grade zero elbows should be chosen for breeding and at least dogs with a score of 2 or 3 should not be used for breeding." 
Also, when you live in the US why do you not do hips/elbows at 2 YO as per the CoE and OFA suggest? And send the BVA results to OFA for listing so you would be in compliance w the GRCA CoE? 

I'd truly like to know why the EC breeders don't at least make some effort at the accepted best practices in the country they reside in. Plus, for those of us who do OFA or PH- after two- it would make it so much easier to give a thumbs up to the EC breeding programs here.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Blessed with Gold said:


> It's unfortunate a American Golden Retriever breeder, who lives in my vicinity, wrote a post that was defamatory, inaccurate, and misleading. I breed imported European Golden Retrievers, follow KC standards and incorporate important health standards of the GRCA that are backed by science. I beleive there is also good merit and science backing up breeding standards in other countries' kennel clubs. All Sono Grato European Golden Retriever puppies will always be progeny from parents who have passing health clearances. And so it is.


Well, this is clearly aimed at me. I love the first line. Yes, I am an American and I am a breeder. As such I follow the best practices of my country. I would not move to another country and expect to not have to abide by their best practices. Doctors can’t just come to the US and say well I am a Doctor in Russia so I don’t have to meet the requirements of this country. 

What is sad is that this person made no attempt to see that I also work with European lines so I am also what this person would likely term an English or European breeder. 

So many folks want to make this an us versus them discussion. I don’t care where the dogs are from and I don’t care what color they are. I care that buyers who are at a huge disadvantage get the information they need to make a good decision. 

Want a reputation that can’t be questioned? It is really easy. Follow the breeding standards in the country you live in and be transparent by having them appropriately recorded. It truly is that simple. 

Want to breed any way you like or follow your own or another country’s health standards, that’s fine. Just understand that pointing out what you are not doing as the best practices in your country will be shared, sometimes as is the case here, publicly.

It is not about being mean, rude or unprofessional it is about arming buyers with accurate information.

If you feel I have incorrect information please let me know by citing exactly what is wrong with evidence. Being upset because you are failing to meet standards in our country is not inaccurate or misleading.


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## CAgirlinIA (Dec 22, 2017)

I too am searching for a reputable breeder of the lighter blonde colored Golden. In my search, I've realized that shouldn't be my biggest priority, though. Top priority is health, breed standard and temperament (although I still have my preferences as to looks). I found this article pretty interesting as I too had been looking at some web sites for the English Cream Golden Retriever 

Don't Be Deceived: English Cream Golden Retrievers - The Daily Golden


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

LJack, thank you for taking time to respond in a courteous manner and making an articulate argument for your stance. Education on these issues is absolutely one of the most important things that this forum provides readers. Please keep speaking up in the best interests of the dogs being produced and the unsuspecting puppy buyers. I appreciate your efforts so much.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

*sono grato european golden retrievers*

Still waiting on Sono Grato to substantiate the claims they made about my post being inaccurate. I am happy to admit if I am wrong. 

I did find one inaccuracy in my post and that was about the sire having BVA elbow certifications. Sono Grato has not made that claim and I did misspeak on that topic. It seems by Sono Grato’s own entries on K9 Data that the sire has no Elbow Certification from any known organization such as BVA, OFA or FCI. 

Perhaps Sono Grato would like to share this boy’s BVA score when they also provide specifics about what they feel is inaccurate along with evidence it is incorrect.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

u0643262 said:


> Hi all thanks for all the information and help. I am located in Kansas City, MO. I am willing to travel. When I first ran into this forum and started reading it was obvious that I was going to have to travel. I do not have a passport but I am considering Canada as it seems I am finding less breeders in the US. I did get ahold of Pam at Kernow Golden?s. She is going to have a litter ready in March/April if everything goes as planned. So far she has been my favorite breeder. Although, she has no idea which dogs she will be breeding. I did talk to Sono Grato and she was doing a lot of the same things as Kernow. Others have ruled Sono Grato out if you read the previous posts. When I read older posts that mentioned Kernow, members talked positively and approved the breeder. The search continues.....


Hi - I am just seeing this now. I am live in the Kansas City area. 

I recommend Cedar Goldens. My Sailor is the granddaughter of Cedar's Limited Edition "Eddie." The Schultzes are very respected in the golden community. Tom is a golden retriever judge.

I know somebody else in Milwaukee that just had a litter last week. These are sired by a Kansas City dog named "Patton" Splendid Chatham's Stars & Bars ( I own a Patton puppy). Not sure how many of these puppies are still available. The pictures I have seen are very light. I know nothing about the mother, but have loved all the Patton puppies I have met. If you PM me, I can get you in touch with the breeder.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

*sono grato european golden retrievers*

Two weeks later and sono grato european golden retrievers still has not responded.

It is very easy to claim what someone posted is wrong. It is much more difficult to prove that when the statements that are backed by facts. 

So please, let me know what facts are wrong and provide proof. 

The Facts- 

The in litter in question was born September 16, 2017.
At the time the of breeding the parents where 15 months old (sire) and 23 months old (dam).
*The GRCA Code of Ethics establishes the standards for responsible breeding in the USA and it lays out the following testing Hips and Elbows tested at or after 24 month of age. Heart testing by a cardiologist. Eye exams annually by an AVCO. Then all of this should be independently verifiable on a public database that has veterinary oversight.*
Neither parent meets the USA standards for ethical breeding listed above.
The sire Tanishtagh Lighthouse has no elbow certification at all and his publicly unverifiable hip certification is deficient because he is not yet 24 months old.
The mother Sono Grato Freya 3 Times a Charm did not have a heart certification at the time she was bred. Her hip and elbow certifications are also publicly unverifiable.

I have listed the main issues with this breeder with numbers so that if Sono Grato really does believe that any of this verifiable information is they can simply cite which item and provide their proof. 

As I have said before if there are inaccuracies in my posts I am happy to admit them if proof of that claim is provided. I am very cautious with postings of this kind though so my posts are backed with evidence usually from www.OFA.org. If Sono Grato has any proof to back the claim that the information I am referencing is inaccurate I encourage them to do so. Until then, I stand confident in the facts above and my opinion that this is not an ethical breeder nor one I could refer any puppy buyer to.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

LJack said:


> Two weeks later and sono grato european golden retrievers still has not responded.....If Sono Grato has any proof to back the claim that the information I am referencing is inaccurate I encourage them to do so. Until then, I stand confident in the facts above and my opinion that this is not an ethical breeder nor one I could refer any puppy buyer to.



Crickets......


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

LJack said:


> Two weeks later and sono grato european golden retrievers still has not responded.
> 
> It is very easy to claim what someone posted is wrong. It is much more difficult to prove that when the statements that are backed by facts.
> 
> ...


And to the breeder who claims all the clearances, I would still like to know how she justifies breeding a 4/4 bitch when the KC itself says 2/3 should not bred from. But I suspect Laura that she will never come back and defend her statements because you posted absolutely accurate info about this breeding program. She cannot defend her choices.


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## biobiegun (Mar 8, 2019)

Brittany,
How did the search go? Did you find your pup? Are you pleased with the breeder?
-Erik


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

biobiegun said:


> Brittany,
> How did the search go? Did you find your pup? Are you pleased with the breeder?
> -Erik


Did you read this thread? What would you even consider SonoGrato? Color is a cosmetic thing only. There are NO plusses associated w EC dogs, and in the absence of clearances, lots of downsides..


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## annef (Feb 23, 2008)

There is no such thing as a 4/4 elbow score from the BVA. Elbows are graded 0/1/2or 3 with 3 being the worse. The scores are not added together but the score reflects the score of the highest elbow so a dog with 0/1 score is scored as 1
and a 0/3 elbow score would be a 3
Hip scores range from 0 to 106 with both the hip scores being added together. All the UK bred dogs scored are published as are the elbow scores , hip scores ,eye tests and DNA tests. It is also possible to see sibling scores as well as parents and progeny scores. 
Eye test can be completed at any age and are repeated annually and hip and elbow scores at 1 year
Annef


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I went and looked @ the bitch's k9data page- input data from the owner-http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=687909 and in the change history she in 9/17 put in 4/4 (thanks for the info on possible scoring w BVA) and in 12/17 after this conversation, she took that off and put 0/0 and moved the 4/4 to the hip score (which sounds like you are saying is also not a correct score?).If you have access to the BVA site, maybe you could look see what the hip scores are? Thanks!


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## annef (Feb 23, 2008)

No the 4/4 hip score is quite possible. Some people use the two combined. One of mine here is 11 but I could also describe it as 5/6. Hope this helps. If you let me know the registered name I can check on the KC site but they don't always list overseas dogs which is not helpful! Annef


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## annef (Feb 23, 2008)

This bitch is no listed on the KC site but that is not because she wasn't scored that is because they don't put overseas scores on there. Her dam is on there as having PRA tests completed. If you go onto the KC site and look under breeding and on health tests you can track the pedigree back. Some of the dogs in the pedigree are Swedish and those can be checked on RASdata. It is not easy to navigate unless you speak Swedish but by trial and error you can find the results! I would say that the Swedish dogs are usually very good on hips having been very strict for many years. The Trewater dogs are lovely 
Hope this helps Annef


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

annef said:


> This bitch is no listed on the KC site but that is not because she wasn't scored that is because they don't put overseas scores on there. Her dam is on there as having PRA tests completed. If you go onto the KC site and look under breeding and on health tests you can track the pedigree back. Some of the dogs in the pedigree are Swedish and those can be checked on RASdata. It is not easy to navigate unless you speak Swedish but by trial and error you can find the results! I would say that the Swedish dogs are usually very good on hips having been very strict for many years. The Trewater dogs are lovely
> Hope this helps Annef


So many dogs claiming BVA in the US- I wonder what it would take to get BV to add the US dogs to their database? I might start a letter writing campaign, it seems like if it is already set up it wouldn't be that big a deal to add the US dogs as they come in... the problem here as I see it is the paperwork (without online database to verify) can easily be falsified.. thank you for your added info to the bitch's pedigree's likelihood of being tested- but who knows, without a way to check.. PRA tests in her dam, that's the PRA we do by DNA, right? So her dam has no BVA results on hips/elbows or are just not on there? I wonder about the PRA on there-


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

*Sono Grato still not a breeder I could recommend*

The way the current BVA results are handled means there are not and probably never will be foreign (to the UK) results on there. In the US, OFA does the testing and publishes the results directly on the OFA site. In the UK, BVA does the evaluation but it is the KC site that displays the results. Since BVA does not maintain their own site and the KC understandably only has dogs registered through them, there is no current way to search them and they are unverifiable. However, BVA and many other valid testing schemes are listable for a small fee on OFA. 

The issues I have with this breeder really stems from misleading, inaccurate statements and a total disregard for the testing standards in the US. If a breeder wants to follow the testing standards for a country they don’t live in, their own idea of what should be tested or no testing at all, then it should be communicated openly, honestly and fairly so buyers can make informed decisions. When any breeder makes untrue, inaccurate, misleading or purposely hides important information, I have big issues with them. 

That is the case here. This breeder lists their puppies on the AKC marketplace and purposely checks the box indicating they follow the GRCA testing standards, they list GRCA affiliation on their website when they are not a club member, and they appear to be hiding their stud dogs test results. 

Below are the screen shots showing the pattern of less than honest claims and behaviors of this breeder. 

Image 1 - Her public claim to complete and verifiable health certifications as set forth by the breed club (GRCA)

Image 2 - The letter from the GRCA pulled directly from the AKC Marketplace detailing the health certifications and disclosure of results she claimed. 

Image 3 - A screenshot of her website where she uses the GRCA logo listed as an affiliation while she is not a member of the club nor does she abide by the code of ethics of the GRCA.

Image 4 - Her oldest breeding bitch Joya’s results on OFA and the only dog she owns that meets the US health testing standards. This demonstrates she knows how to complete the testing requirements she claiming. 

Image 5 - The OFA results for another breeding bitch Freya is missing verifiable health certifications for hips and elbows. 

Image 6 - The OFA results for her stud dog Rembrandt who is missing verifiable health certifications for hips and elbows.

Image 7 - The self entry K9Data page for her stud dog Rembrandt. This is not a professionally managed database and users can enter incorrect or invalid information. There is no organization backed elbow certification since OFA, BVA, FCI, etc. evaluate X-rays. Also the BVA results listed here are not verifiable since it is selfentry and BVA results for without UK registration are not available on the professionally managed verification site BVA uses. It is reasonable to assume based on her other dog claiming BVA elbows that she tested his too but since they are not disclosed and an unverifiable CT scan is listed instead. There is a very high likelihood BVA graded him as dysplstic and it is purposely being omitted. 

Image 8 - Included this young bitch because there is information on the breeder’s website for a 2019 breeding. In teresting to note her first breeding bitch Joya had full and verifiable health certifications, the next few dogs lost hips and elbows as verifiable certifications, now on this young bitch we see her shifting from the cardiologist heart certification all her other dogs have to a deficient practitioner exam. 

Image 9 - Not this breeders dog. Included as an example that even if a breeder prefers an alternate testing organization over OFA that those tests can still be added to the professionally managed OFA site so verification is possible and the breeder can still meet our US testing standards. Note the foreign health tests were done under the age of 24 months which is the US standard so this person did the responsible thing and retested at or afte 24 months.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I can take care of the GRCA piece (I think) w a quick email to Linda Bell- who, if I recall, already asked her last year to take that down. GRCA's next step is legal if she refuses. 
This ^^ that LJACK posted- to some extent is happening with the majority of the EC breeders in the US - the ones that identify that way, and it is the reason most of us here have issues w their breedings. I can't even call them 'programs' because they are without purpose other than coat color and typically ply the reader with nonsense and lies. 

Marcia, if you are reading this, please heed Linda's next email. They don't get nicer than the first one. You don't want to take on GRCA.

And also, if you are reading this, why don't you just do what you claim to? Right livelihood is always one's best bet. Do you want to leave this earth w a legacy of unethical livelihood?


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