# OH NO!!! What should I do/should I have done???



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Today I decided to get a start on the 50 marks my trainer wants Tito to retrieve before running in the WC. 
So we thawed "donald" out, and my husband agreed to be my bird boy.
I have 10 acres here, lots of nice varying cover.
Put the e-collar on Tito, made sure it was turned on (learning from past experience here). He was all excited because when the e-collar comes out, he knows something great is about to happen.
First 4 marks went really well. We ran across some varying cover, it's immaterial to the story. Working about 50 yards away, throwing into a different location with each bird, into cover about (human) knee to thigh-high. He is very persistent and will hunt until he finds the bird, although it didn't take him long on any of the first 4.
THEN
the 5th mark, he missed the bird. Went out and started hunting the area of fall. Couldn't find it. Started hunting a wider and wider area.
At this point, I figured he had "lost it" and I whistled him to come in so I could re-send him. HE IGNORED THE COME-IN WHISTLE. So I nicked him a few times with the collar. HE IGNORED THE COLLAR. He's been doing REALLY well with the collar, even turning away from chasing a bunny when I hit him with the collar. So I hit him with the "continuous". TWICE. He was jumpin' and twitchin', but HE IGNORED THE COLLAR. He was going to get that bird NO MATTER WHAT.
What should I have done? What should I do if it happens again? I was really hitting him hard with the collar, to the point where I felt guilty about doing it. Eventually he DID turn in to me and come back, at which time I praised him lavishly, and then lined him up and re-sent him and he found the bird right away. 
But I really am upset about his (1) ignoring the come-in whistle, and especially (2) ignoring the collar, despite some pretty heavy hits.
HELP!!!!!

P.S. I will, of course, be asking my trainer too, but I don't see him until Wednesday and I don't want to screw up between now and then if we run more marks....


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

My *NON* expert opinion is that you should have had your husband help him find the bird rather than call him in. It is never good in my opinion to alloow him to fail especially when you are just beginning. SUCCESS is so much more important than anything, again just my opinion. I think he KNEW not to come back out without the bird and then got confused as to what you wanted from him - his brain had a minor short circuit.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

A question also would be how close were the 5 marks to each other? Did you change the picture enough so he did not get confused with any of the other marks?


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Thanks, Hank. I got wrapped up in not wanting him to rely on getting help from the gunnar, and I probably should have let my husband help him. Or maybe just let him search for an hour, because I doubt the little fool would have given up.
But his ignoring both me AND the collar worries me.....he was really dancing from the collar and obviously decided the bird meant more to him.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I wasn't worried about him "losing" the bird. I was very upset about his ignoring both me and the collar.....that's what I'm not sure how to handle?? Should I have gone out to him and MADE him come in?? Should I have turned up the collar until he screamed???
I don't know what I should have done. He was a dog obsessed.




AmbikaGR said:


> A question also would be how close were the 5 marks to each other? Did you change the picture enough so he did not get confused with any of the other marks?


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Another very non-expert opinion here, but I agree with Hank, I don't think it's a good idea to call the dog back in without the bird, especially since he was still hunting. Certainly don't want the dog to think he should start coming on back in if he doesn't quickly find the bird.

When you hit the continuous and he didn't come, did he just stand there or did he continue his hunt?


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

hotel4dogs said:


> Should I have turned up the collar until he screamed???
> I don't know what I should have done. He was a dog obsessed.



Absolutely not!! I truly do not think he understood what was expected and to do that you could end up washing him out. The collar is meant to reinforce a KNOWN command/exercise and his behavior tells me he thought you wanted him do something other. You might want to revisit "come" again. I know it sounds ridiculous with a dog the knows "come" but some where he got confused.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

hotel4dogs said:


> But his ignoring both me AND the collar worries me.....he was really dancing from the collar and obviously decided the bird meant more to him.



Again I believe that Tito honestly thought THAT'S what you wanted him to do - to find the bird.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

He just continued to hunt. Picked his head up and looked back at me like "leave me alone" and continued to hunt for the bird. And (ok, I know I"ve said this 3 times but it bothered me) he was REALLY dancing from the collar hit....
Oh, I verbally called him to come, too, and I KNOW he knows what that command means.




Loisiana said:


> When you hit the continuous and he didn't come, did he just stand there or did he continue his hunt?


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Ok, I'm thinking we are going back to dragging a long line again. What say you guys? For a little while we need to drag the line until we are SURE we understand that come means come means come, no matter what.
???


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

If he thought that's what I wanted him to do, I'm okay with that. But I have a sneaking feeling he thought that's what HE wanted him to do....



AmbikaGR said:


> Again I believe that Tito honestly thought THAT'S what you wanted him to do - to find the bird.


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## IowaGold (Nov 3, 2009)

Like the others, I wouldn't have called him in at that point (I wouldn't have let him hunt wildly either, sometimes a little gunner help isn't the end of the world). But if he had ignored my come-in wistle, I would have had DH pick up the bird, then walked out there and made him come. 

Ruby was absolutely terrible today. We were doing a triple and she did a very nice job. Came in with the last bumper, sat, then decided she wasn't finished. Took off running with her bumper, ignoring me (I forgot the collar today!:doh. So I walked her down, took the bumper, threw it on the ground and picked her butt up (actually her chest...) and CARRIED her all the way to the car and threw her in her kennel. Good thing she only weighs 60#.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

hotel4dogs said:


> Should I have turned up the collar until he screamed???


And this, in a nutshell, is exactly the problem I have with this kind of training. We, as humans, are dangerous with a tool in our hands. Pop on the e-collar and all creativity is lost in training.... just hit that button and keep turning up the juice until it works. It's not enough that he was "seriously dancing" from what you'd already given him... you'd actually consider turning it up higher. I've seen exactly this picture time and time again during my limited trips out in the field, and it's exactly why I've chosen to go only as far as I can with Jersey without resorting to causing him pain. We may not make Master Hunter, but I won't have to live with knowing I did something to cause his body to jerk and jump... or worse yet for him to scream in pain. And for all the arguments on this forum about how the collar doesn't really "hurt" them and how levels are kept low and how all the videos that show dogs responding exactly this way depict incompetent trainers who are misusing the collar... well, that all sounds very nice in a debate but doesn't really tell the whole story.

I agree that it sounds like Tito was confused about what was wanted of him in this moment.... in my even-less-expert opinion. In full drive it's unlikely your voice command got through to him at all. How much have you really worked the whistle commands with him? How fluent is he, really, with them? If my memory serves you've been seriously field training about 2 to 3 months now... so it seems very likely to me that more reinforcement of these commands is needed. Did you consider giving him a sit whistle first? If you've worked casting with him at all he's far more likely to follow this command knowing he will be directed toward the bird. Then you could chose to either help him with a cast or call him in for a re-send when he's more likely to be focused on you instead of the bird/hunt. If you're concerned about him becoming overly reliant on the gunners, did you consider having your husband throw something (a rock, a stick, a bumper) to the same spot as the bird. The sound/flash of movement may have been enough to get him in the right direction and if timed correctly he'd have no idea who threw it or that it's not a grazed winger flapping in the grass. Surely there were other methods of recourse in this situation.

Having a remote in your hand is no excuse for not closely examining where things are breaking down and helping your novice dog to be as successful as possible. Turning up the juice when he shows exactly the drive and determination people wish for in a golden retriever is sure to make him think twice about sticking it out next time. And if that happens, his field career will be over before it begins. Best of luck with your training.

Julie and Jersey


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

You've got a dog that doesn't handle yet. It is a GOOD thing that he did not want to quit and did not want to come back without a bird. That is perseverance!!! Until you have him handling to be able to help out on a hunt that is getting huge either just let him work it out (which he would have to do in a test) or have the gunner help. Don't sweat it--it is better that he does not think it is okay to come in without the bird. When he is more advanced and you have more tools then you might call a dog in for a poor initial line but at this point you want him to get out there and stick it out! Yes, the recall refusal is problematic, but a dog that would give up on a bird is a bigger problem. Pick your battles when you've got the tools to deal with them.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Thanks Sarah, that feels like exactly the right answer, intuitively. It never even occured to me to have DH pick the bird up and thus take away what it was Tito was after in the first place, which in itself would have been enough *correction*. If DH had picked up the bird, Tito would have come in, and the whole thing would have been over.
I know what to do next time.




IowaGold said:


> Like the others, I wouldn't have called him in at that point (I wouldn't have let him hunt wildly either, sometimes a little gunner help isn't the end of the world). But if he had ignored my come-in wistle, I would have had DH pick up the bird, then walked out there and made him come.
> 
> Ruby was absolutely terrible today. We were doing a triple and she did a very nice job. Came in with the last bumper, sat, then decided she wasn't finished. Took off running with her bumper, ignoring me (I forgot the collar today!:doh. So I walked her down, took the bumper, threw it on the ground and picked her butt up (actually her chest...) and CARRIED her all the way to the car and threw her in her kennel. Good thing she only weighs 60#.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

thanks Julie, there are some excellent suggestions here for how I could have helped him out without causing future problems of him doing what he wants to and ignoring my commands. We haven't done enough casting yet for that to have worked, but it will in the future. 
I'm learning a lot from this forum, that's for sure!




Jersey's Mom said:


> And this, in a nutshell, is exactly the problem I have with this kind of training. We, as humans, are dangerous with a tool in our hands. Pop on the e-collar and all creativity is lost in training.... just hit that button and keep turning up the juice until it works. It's not enough that he was "seriously dancing" from what you'd already given him... you'd actually consider turning it up higher. I've seen exactly this picture time and time again during my limited trips out in the field, and it's exactly why I've chosen to go only as far as I can with Jersey without resorting to causing him pain. We may not make Master Hunter, but I won't have to live with knowing I did something to cause his body to jerk and jump... or worse yet for him to scream in pain. And for all the arguments on this forum about how the collar doesn't really "hurt" them and how levels are kept low and how all the videos that show dogs responding exactly this way depict incompetent trainers who are misusing the collar... well, that all sounds very nice in a debate but doesn't really tell the whole story.
> 
> I agree that it sounds like Tito was confused about what was wanted of him in this moment.... in my even-less-expert opinion. In full drive it's unlikely your voice command got through to him at all. How much have you really worked the whistle commands with him? How fluent is he, really, with them? If my memory serves you've been seriously field training about 2 to 3 months now... so it seems very likely to me that more reinforcement of these commands is needed. Did you consider giving him a sit whistle first? If you've worked casting with him at all he's far more likely to follow this command knowing he will be directed toward the bird. Then you could chose to either help him with a cast or call him in for a re-send when he's more likely to be focused on you instead of the bird/hunt. If you're concerned about him becoming overly reliant on the gunners, did you consider having your husband throw something (a rock, a stick, a bumper) to the same spot as the bird. The sound/flash of movement may have been enough to get him in the right direction and if timed correctly he'd have no idea who threw it or that it's not a grazed winger flapping in the grass. Surely there were other methods of recourse in this situation.
> 
> ...


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

hotel4dogs said:


> Should I have turned up the collar until he screamed??? I don't know what I should have done. He was a dog obsessed.



Sorry you had a rough day with training. That's never fun.

I'm slightly nauseous from reading your posts - mostly b/c I can't imagine ever choosing to use an e-collar in such a way that would make my PET DOG twitch or scream in pain. This is your COMPANION ANIMAL. In my humble opinion, no ribbon or title is worth causing that much discomfort and pain.

Additionally, didn't you just post a few days ago about how you had to admit to your trainer that you'd done zero training in the past two weeks? In the big picture, he's had very little field training. I know he's an awesome dog and you're achieving success quickly, but please remember that it's still new to him, and being new, is it even remotely fair to consider correcting in such a way? You're upset that he ignored your recall cue. Honestly, how much have you practiced calling him in when *interrupting* a hunt? If you haven't practiced in that context, how is it fair to correct when he fails to perform correctly?

I guess reading your posts just made me think about.... imagine if tomorrow, all dog sports failed to exist. There were not titles, no ribbons, no competitions... and Tito was just your pet. Could you live with yourself knowing you'd inflicted pain upon him and considered inflicting MORE pain?


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I'm really glad to hear you say this....to me (old obedience background is showing thru), it was HORRIBLE that he refused the recall. It was worse than anything else that possibly could have happened.
I can see that giving up on the bird would, in the long run, be a bigger problem.
I have some great ideas for next time now.




sterregold said:


> You've got a dog that doesn't handle yet. It is a GOOD thing that he did not want to quit and did not want to come back without a bird. That is perseverance!!! Until you have him handling to be able to help out on a hunt that is getting huge either just let him work it out (which he would have to do in a test) or have the gunner help. Don't sweat it--it is better that he does not think it is okay to come in without the bird. When he is more advanced and you have more tools then you might call a dog in for a poor initial line but at this point you want him to get out there and stick it out! Yes, the recall refusal is problematic, but a dog that would give up on a bird is a bigger problem. Pick your battles when you've got the tools to deal with them.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

More thinking from a non-experienced person, so I'm just thinking out loud here...Tito has learned an awful lot during the last few months: force fetch, whistle, collar conditioning. Yes, it's possible he just really wanted that bird and chose to ignore you. But it's also possible he just isn't set in all this new stuff yet to know which command to follow maybe? as in - she told me to go get the bird, and I've been taught that means I HAVE to get it, but she also told me to come, does that mean I hurry up and get the bird and then come? I know a lot of times in force fetch people will send a dog for a bumper, call them to come right before they get to the bumper, and still expect them to get the bumper before they turn around. If Tito's gone through anything like that then it very well could have been confusion on his part.

Anyway, my mind says if you're not sure for the reasoning for a dog's reaction then give the dog the benefit of the doubt for that session, and be prepared on how to react the next time.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Yes, which is exactly why I immediately ended the session and came and posted to the forum looking for ideas and opinions...knowing full well I was opening myself up to a lot of bad feelings by saying I had hit him with the e-collar for not coming when called. 
Now I feel much more prepared to deal with it logically and correctly the next time it happens, there have been some great ideas here.




Loisiana said:


> More thinking from a non-experienced person, so I'm just thinking out loud here...Tito has learned an awful lot during the last few months: force fetch, whistle, collar conditioning. Yes, it's possible he just really wanted that bird and chose to ignore you. But it's also possible he just isn't set in all this new stuff yet to know which command to follow maybe? as in - she told me to go get the bird, and I've been taught that means I HAVE to get it, but she also told me to come, does that mean I hurry up and get the bird and then come?
> 
> Anyway, my mind says if you're not sure for the reasoning for a dog's reaction then give the dog the benefit of the doubt for that session, and be prepared on how to react the next time.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I don't want to turn this into a debate about e-collars, but I do feel a need to defend myself for using it at all and to explain some of my thoughts.
Tito has a MASSIVE prey drive and tremendous bird instinct. I have a neurotic fear that he will take off on me and get lost. 
The whole reason for using the e-collar with him, in my own mind, is to enforce the "come" command. I don't use it to enforce sit or heel. Only the come-in. And when he blew off the collar on a come command, it really shook me. I had visions of him taking off and getting lost or killed. Now he wasn't going anywhere this time, but I *thought* the collar was foolproof because he's been responding so well to just a very low nick and here he was ignoring it. 
Obviously I didn't turn the collar up, and obviously it bothered me to hit him with it or I wouldn't have even come here and posted about it, knowing what responses I would get from some people who strongly disagree with the use of the e-collar. 
I have some great ideas for how to work through it next time. But his ignoring my come-in command really worries me. What if that had been a rabbit, and he'd run across the road, instead of searching in the field for a bird, which was a harmless activity.
We need to work on the come-in command BIG time.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I think one of the biggest challenges in dog training is knowing what to do when a problem pops up. Help the dog or correct the dog, level of correction if correcting, etc. I think knowing that is what seperates the truly great trainers from everyone else.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

FlyingQuizini said:


> I'm slightly nauseous from reading your posts - mostly b/c I can't imagine ever choosing to use an e-collar in such a way that would make my PET DOG twitch or scream in pain. This is your COMPANION ANIMAL. In my humble opinion, no ribbon or title is worth causing that much discomfort and pain.
> 
> Could you live with yourself knowing you'd inflicted pain upon him and considered inflicting MORE pain?


I totally agree with this. 

I also believe it was your ego hitting that button. :no: And that's something that should definitely be left at home when dealing with e-collars in whatever capacity.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

I'm not looking for you to defend your use of the collar. I just wanted to offer a different perspective. I'm glad you didn't turn it up and I'm happy you have ideas for how to work it next time.

Just curious -- how often have you trained come-in when it means interrupting the hunt for something? That's probably one of the more challenging variations of come when called. For Tito, the thrill of the hunt was worth the "dancing" that the collar caused him. (Which is also why I argue that NO DOG is ever 100% reliable on a recall, collar or no collar. When we take a dog off leash, IMO, we're accepting the risk that something might happen. All we can do is stack the deck in our favor as much as we can.)


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

hotel4dogs said:


> We need to work on the come-in command BIG time.



Barb I think you may be putting the cart before the horse. And I understand your concern about not coming in when called. I would actually work on the sit on the whistle command. And get that rock solid. It is easier to get a dog to sit in field during a hunt then it is to get it to come in while hunting. Once he is sitting you can then try having the gunner help or have the gunner picked it up and then call Tito in from the sit. As Shelly stated at this point your tools are somewhat limited and you need to work with the ones you do have. 
And in my opinion anytime you even think about turning up the collar on a green dog iit means you have a hole in your training and need to stop. The level you found that worked in your conditioning should ALWAYS work. Adding pressure (turning up the collar) will truly come back to bite you, I have seen it. And I know it is not ego that makes you even consider it but frustration. And just like in obedience a frustrated trainer is a very bad thing.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

The only time I've done that would be if he's in pursuit of a ground squirrel in the (fenced in) yard. He's pretty good about coming when called if it's a "critter" he's after. 
Other than that, once with a rabbit. He came back. We were outside the fenced yard.
In all those instances, the prey was in motion and he probably would not catch it anyway. Maybe at some level he knew that.
I can't think of a single example where he was hunting for something stationary and I called him in.
And I agree, no dog is ever 100% reliable on a recall. There's no such thing. 
FWIW, this isn't about ribbons and titles. Obedience is about ribbons and titles, it's a game we made up and our dogs agree to play it. I didn't train or show him with ear pinches, FF, or even a prong collar in obedience. I'm a ridiculously soft trainer in obedience. That's my game, not his game.
But this is HIS game. I'm trying hard to explain this and I'm sorry if I'm not real eloquent with words, but this is the one thing that Tito wants to do more than anything else in the whole world. I didn't know that until a couple of months ago. But now that I've seen him do it, I know that it's what he was born to do. He will refuse food, attention, and I'm guessing even a female in heat to go after a bird. The dog is OBSESSED. I'm trying to give him the tools to allow him to play HIS game as safely as possible. Maybe I'm not always doing it right, but that's what I'm trying to do.



FlyingQuizini said:


> I'm not looking for you to defend your use of the collar. I just wanted to offer a different perspective. I'm glad you didn't turn it up and I'm happy you have ideas for how to work it next time.
> 
> Just curious -- how often have you trained come-in when it means interrupting the hunt for something? That's probably one of the more challenging variations of come when called. For Tito, the thrill of the hunt was worth the "dancing" that the collar caused him. (Which is also why I argue that NO DOG is ever 100% reliable on a recall, collar or no collar. When we take a dog off leash, IMO, we're accepting the risk that something might happen. All we can do is stack the deck in our favor as much as we can.)


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I agree totally. The only thing to do was to completely stop the training session and come post to the forum for opinions and ideas. I have some great ones for our next training session, and now I'm looking forward to it rather than worrying about it because now I feel I know how to handle it if this happens again.
And now I'm going to strap on his e-collar (turned off) and go out and throw some fun bumpers for him, and then we're going to go walk around the back 40 acres for a while. It's something we both love to do.

I'm befuddled about the ego comment someone else posted. I haven't got a clue how ego would have figured into it. Fear, yes. Ego, no. Ah well.




AmbikaGR said:


> And in my opinion anytime you even think about turning up the collar on a green dog iit means you have a hole in your training and need to stop. The level you found that worked in your conditioning should ALWAYS work. Adding pressure (turning up the collar) will truly come back to bite you, I have seen it. And I know it is not ego that makes you even consider it but frustration. And just like in obedience a frustrated trainer is a very bad thing.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

hotel4dogs said:


> I'm befuddled about the ego comment someone else posted. I haven't got a clue how ego would have figured into it. Fear, yes. Ego, no. Ah well.



Give the Tito monster an ear scratch for me. :


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Ah, isn't that the best thing about dogs? An ear scratch makes them so happy, and they forgive us and love us even when we do things wrong.




AmbikaGR said:


> Give the Tito monster an ear scratch for me. :


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Yes, I'm very much anti-collar... but let me clarify, I'm not trying to attack you for choosing to use an e-collar. In fact, I've purposely stayed away from this area of the forum because I feel it's not productive (and likely quite annoying) for every hunting thread to turn into a debate about collar use. I actually clicked on this thread before I realized what section it was in. I understand that some people (including people I admire) will choose to use this tool in the field and that I cannot change their minds. I understand it's the mainstream type of training found in that environment. And I can only hope that the folks I choose to train with will equally understand that I choose to do it differently. But that's all besides the point here.

The problem as I see it is our most base instincts. We're primates. We love to use our hands. We love to use tools. So you put a remote in someone's hand and all thought of other solutions goes out the window. I see it constantly in all sorts of settings. Most prominent in my mind is my patients. I bring the walker into the room and demonstrate how I want them to get up -- by pushing off the bed/chair to a full standing position and then grab onto the walker. They tell me they understand and I can see that they do. I put the walker in front of them... and they immediately grab it with both hands and try to pull themselves up. :doh: It's human nature. 

To that effect, what bothered me about your posts isn't so much that you have an e-collar on Tito... as I wasn't looking to open up another of those debates. It's that the solution was to turn up the shock till he "danced," despite all of the training/reading/discussions with your trainer that should have told you exactly what Ambika did -- that the level used to condition is the highest you should ever need to use. What bothered me more is that after the fact, having returned home and signed on to the forum and made a couple posts here, that in your mind the answer still might have been to continue turning up the stim until Tito "screamed." That type of thinking is dangerous in the heat of the moment, but scares me more when removed from the environment in what should be a more rational state of mind. 

I won't ask you to defend your choice of training methods... at least not in this thread.  But I do ask you to understand that in embarking on this method of training you must do everything in your power to recognize and overcome that very human urge to keep pushing the button (think of an impatient person waiting for an elevator, you should never look like that in the field). It's your responsibility to insure that you do the best you can by Tito... and I believe that level of responsibility is even higher when utilizing a tool that can so easily be misused. It must always be your most rational mind that pushes that button, never your emotion. Always be analyzing for holes in your training or areas where fluency is lacking or faltering... figure out the what or the why and patch the leak. In that way, you'll hopefully avoid most of these types of problems before they start... but come the time something sneaks up on you again, remember the tips in this thread (or come up with another solution depending on the situation) to diffuse as peacefully as possible until you are able to fix what's broken or add what's missing. And most importantly, as someone said, never let frustration seep into your training. Once you feel even a hint of it, it's time to call it a day. That rule never changes, regardless of venue or methods.

Julie and Jersey


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## my4goldens (Jan 21, 2009)

My 2 cents for what its worth. Knowing you and Tito as well as I do, here goes. You trained for obedience one way, and now changed the game for the field training. I think maybe you are expecting too much too soon. Tito is a very compliant biddable dog, and no doubt he will be successful in the field too. But give him some time, he is still very young and you just started with his training. As I am sure your trainer has told you, make sure he understands completely each step of this journey. And don't be afraid to take a step back when he demonstrates his uncertainty of what you expect of him. I don't have a problem with the e-collar, but oh, the vision of him reacting to the e-collar and yet not responding to it makes me tremble a little.


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

Yes, frustration is a much better description of the emotion conveyed in the OP's original post and not ego. Still, not an emotion you ever want when dealing with an e-collar.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Jersey's Mom said:


> never let frustration seep into your training. Once you feel even a hint of it, it's time to call it a day.


That can go on my list of favorite training quotes. Right next to what I believe is Anne Marie Silverton: "Lack of attention is the root of all evil!"

Off topic but speaking of Anne Marie, apparently that is about the only thing we agree on. She even told me she didn't think Flip was a good name for a dog, tried to get me to change it to Skip!


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

*hugs* Take a deep breath. Give Tito a pat. Tomorrow will be another day.


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

Loisiana said:


> That can go on my list of favorite training quotes. Right next to what I believe is Anne Marie Silverton: "Lack of attention is the root of all evil!"
> 
> Off topic but speaking of Anne Marie, apparently that is about the only thing we agree on. She even told me she didn't think Flip was a good name for a dog, tried to get me to change it to Skip!


Don't know what her training preferences are, but the woman surely has no taste in dog names! Flip is a fantastic name! I know a Flip around here (from field training, ironically enough). His registered name is (Don't-know-the-kennel)'s Flip the Bird. 

Holy side-track Batman... it's way past my bedtime!

Julie and Jersey


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

This has been a really good thread. I hope I can remember everything I wanted to say while reading it.
Mama said there'll be days like this. Sooooo true. I have had BAD BAD BAD training days with Fisher that made me feel TERRIBLE because I truly 100% failed as a trainer. It set us back. It reset the clock. I had to tiptoe and play nice to get back in a good frame of mind the next time. In hindsight it makes me a better trainer. I know how fast things can go south and that makes you consciously keep an even keel. Field training is SO kinetic, you have to think on your feet. Remember, HELPING is just that -- help -- rarely does it harm. Corrections can harm. Which one should be used first? 

Dogs will put up big stupid hunts, be thankful he was sticking it out and hunting, as Shelly said. The ONLY time I will call back on a hunt is if the dog really truly is putting up a super stupid hunt, running big donut loops way out of the way where clearly the bird is not. I think the last time I called Fisher back for this was 3 years ago. GUNNER HELP is an absolutely essential tool, do not be afraid to use it. It is almost always the right answer for a new dog or a dog needing confidence. A few hey-heys or a duck call from your husband would have brought the dog back to the area and solved the problem right away. You do not want the dog fearing being called off a bird -- much less burned off a bird -- and it's ten times better for the dog to stick near the gunner for help than to pop and rely on you.

Having said that, this is the second thread recently where novice trainers have assumed that running out and picking up the bird is a dandy solution to their woes, be it breaking or big sloppy hunts. People ------- THAT IS NOT GOING TO SOLVE YOUR PROBLEMS. How on earth is the dog who is having trouble with a 50 yard mark going to connect the dots on why the bird isn't there any more? Because they broke, because they put up a stupid hunt? Great -- take away the bird and now the dog is completely befuddled. Just what you want on marks, right? Wrong. Better management at the line and better communication with the gunner is the answer.

Okay, back to WHY Tito actually committed this great offense 
#1 calling a dog off a hunt IS REALLY HARD. I disagree with Hank -- yes normally in yardwork, drills, etc, the level you CC'd is what you work at. Ummmm....not on birds, not on marks, not on a dog hellbent to get the bird. That low 3 doesn't work any more. More juice needed. I am not advocating using the collar the way you did but there is a real good reason why the normal level didn't produce the reaction you normally see. The level needed is that which CHANGES THE DOG'S MIND. Again -- not advocating how you used it -- but if you have to go up to change the dog's mind then that's what you have to do -- and yes, sometimes (depending on the dog) you get vocalization. IT SUCKS but otherwise the method does not work. 
#2 Lay off the whistle business. I realize your instructor has impressed on you the come-in whistle a lot -- but really -- it is not as important, necessary or imperative as it's been represented. Your dog will need to know come-in whistle on blinds....a much more controlled environment than marks. There really is no reason for us to blow a come-in whistle after every mark but we do it, it gives us handlers something to do. The dogs probably pay it very little mind, and taken out of that context (which it was in your scenario) it means absolutely nothing to the dog. Add to the fact that the dog is 75-100 yards away, running full bore through cover, he probably didn't really hear the whistle terribly well, it just didn't register with him. Some of those awful training days with Fisher I mentioned above? Trust me we've had blinds that melted into me blowing the whistle about fifty times and I know the dog had no idea what I was trying to tell him. Ugly. Probably same thing here.

Someone else mentioned about all the new field training concepts you've absorbed in the past 2-3 months. I absolutely agree. Reading your training journals after "class" each week is really fun, I enjoy it -- but when I realized you were getting all that crammed into an hour or hour and a half, I couldn't believe it!!! Your trainer must spend two minutes on each thing to get all of that in there. He's covering things I wouldn't cover in a month's worth of training or with a dog that early in training. It's exciting for you as the handler, especially since the trainer is really enthusiastic about the dog....but it all seems like WAY TOO MUCH for my taste. There is all the time in the world to teach the dog, why cram everything at once? This can lead to confusion by the dog AND THE HANDLER. It's a lot for you to learn too....Tito just has to do what is told, you on the other hand have to set it up and react to the dog, and try to figure out what to do next and how to fix stuff. You've had so much thrown at you, sensory overload!!!

The trainer sounds like a really fantastic guy, and very fun, but keep things into perspective. Maybe have a talk with him, about getting marks down pat -- and I mean big boy marks, 100-200 yards, good marking concepts, good line habits, knowing how to be a good gunner, etc., before launching into all of this stuff with handling, whistle, gun, upland, blah blah blah.

So much with field training is understanding the dog's psyche and drive vs. obedience....oh it is SOOOO different from obedience, or agility, or whatever else! 

It's a necessary evil to have breakdowns in the flow of things, if it all went smoothly all the time, everybody could do it 

Hope this helps.


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## Kohanagold (Nov 5, 2008)

Barb, I really know nothing about any of this, but just wanted to say that I think we've all done things in training that are counter productive. We learn and move on. Tito will be fine. You've got some good advice here. If it were me, I would have let him sort it out, most likely. I dont think I would have asked him to come (I agree with the mention of the dog returning without the bird and how confusing that might be). 

At this point, with Paige, we've only just recently got a HOLD. We are moving onto the "HOLD and COME" at the same time. I dont know what I'm doing, but that's how I trained the dumbell and the bumpers, and we're struggling with the birds just like we did those, so I'm working through it exactly the same way. So really, you and Tito are a million times further than we are. But I do think that it can rattle our confidence when something like this happens, but next time will be better. Hugs to you and Tito! BJ


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## IowaGold (Nov 3, 2009)

K9-Design said:


> Having said that, this is the second thread recently where novice trainers have assumed that running out and picking up the bird is a dandy solution to their woes, be it breaking or big sloppy hunts. People ------- THAT IS NOT GOING TO SOLVE YOUR PROBLEMS. How on earth is the dog who is having trouble with a 50 yard mark going to connect the dots on why the bird isn't there any more? Because they broke, because they put up a stupid hunt? Great -- take away the bird and now the dog is completely befuddled. Just what you want on marks, right? Wrong. Better management at the line and better communication with the gunner is the answer.


This has been bothering me for several days now. OK, we ALL agreed that she should not have tried to call her dog in. We ALL agreed that the gunner should have helped out. But she DID call her dog in - multiple times and in multiple ways. According to the OP, the dog looked at her and decided that he'd rather continue hunting although he heard her calling. I posted what I would have done had I made the greivous error of calling my dog at that point (or if I had rightly called her in because she was putting up a stupid hunt). Was it not more important AT THAT POINT to enforce the come command?

Personally I would not have resent my dog to the same down bird after calling her in on a mark. I would have (gasp) had the bird picked up and moved on to the next mark (after physically going out and getting my dog/enforcing the come command). Why on earth would picking up the bird in that scenario be bad? I never suggested picking up the bird and letting the dog continue hunting for a bird that was not there.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

IowaGold said:


> Personally I would not have resent my dog to the same down bird after calling her in on a mark. I would have (gasp) had the bird picked up and moved on to the next mark (after physically going out and getting my dog/enforcing the come command). Why on earth would picking up the bird in that scenario be bad? I never suggested picking up the bird and letting the dog continue hunting for a bird that was not there.


 
Forcing on recall in the field at this point in training would be counter productive as the dog is just not far enough along to so. When you have a dog with limited exposure to marks in the field you NEVER want them to come back without the bird. Help is always preferable to keep a young dog going in the right direction. 

If you were to introduce a strong correction for recall when they had never experienced it before, you would cause confusion in the dog. 

The dog did blow off the recall command so the handler may be pushing ahead too quickly. The place to address the recall issue is in the yard where you have better control. If you're going to up the anty in the pressure department, the yard is the place to do so, not out in the field. If you haven't used pressure in the yard for OB infractions, you can't use it in the field without confusing the dog and causing problems.


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## IowaGold (Nov 3, 2009)

We are talking about this very specific scenario here where the handler was not going to use gunner help. Obviously this is wrong, but it is what it is. The dog was presumably starting to hunt wildly at this point. Do you just let the dog continue hunt wildly until he decides on his own to stop hunting? Or go get him (and if you wouldn't resend him, as I wouldn't have, pick up the bird)?


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

IowaGold said:


> Personally I would not have resent my dog to the same down bird after calling her in on a mark. I would have (gasp) had the bird picked up and moved on to the next mark (after physically going out and getting my dog/enforcing the come command). Why on earth would picking up the bird in that scenario be bad? I never suggested picking up the bird and letting the dog continue hunting for a bird that was not there.


Actually it wasn't your comment about picking up the bird I was referring to. I agree with you, that clearly if you're going to call the dog and repeat the mark, you'd pick up the first bird and re-throw, as there's no way the dog would remember where the bird actually was after all that. Who I was referring to with my comment, was Barb, when she said:

"Thanks Sarah, that feels like exactly the right answer, intuitively. It never even occured to me to have DH pick the bird up and thus take away what it was Tito was after in the first place, which in itself would have been enough *correction*. If DH had picked up the bird, Tito would have come in, and the whole thing would have been over."

This is entirely different from having the gunner pick up the bird and repeat the mark as you suggested -- Barb thought that this was to somehow correct the dog and/or teach him that big stupid hunt or ignoring HERE command equals no bird. I feel this is really faulty logic and the dog would never really connect the dots on it.

Combined with another post (not yours) a few days ago where someone wanted to have the gunner run out and beat the dog who broke to the bird and pick it up, prompted what I wrote. (In THIS case it was a junior dog not properly trained or handled to be steady, and breaking was completely preventable. Having the gunner run out and grab the bird was very clunky training at best in this scenario.)


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## IowaGold (Nov 3, 2009)

K9-Design said:


> Actually it wasn't your comment about picking up the bird I was referring to. I agree with you, that clearly if you're going to call the dog and repeat the mark, you'd pick up the first bird and re-throw, as there's no way the dog would remember where the bird actually was after all that. Who I was referring to with my comment, was Barb, when she said:
> 
> "Thanks Sarah, that feels like exactly the right answer, intuitively. It never even occured to me to have DH pick the bird up and thus take away what it was Tito was after in the first place, which in itself would have been enough *correction*. If DH had picked up the bird, Tito would have come in, and the whole thing would have been over."
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for this Anney! I was totally feeling like everyone thought I made a stupid suggestion for this particular scenario. 

Sure I don't have as much experience as some here, but I do have more than others. I totally agreed with you on that other thread and don't typically pick up birds in training, but couldn't quite grasp how it would have been a bad idea to pick up a bird after/while you were going out to pick up your errant dog. I didn't want to think that I was doing something wrong with my training group (who unfortunately all have even less experience than me).


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I did post in another thread what my trainer's opinion was, but what Swampcollie said is pretty much it in a nutshell. He said that it is certainly okay to call a dog off a bird, but NOT a dog that's so new and NOT a trainer that's so new. I should never have called him off. The trainer demonstrated to me how I should have had my husband help out rather than calling Tito back.
But once I had (repeatedly) tried to call him back, I needed to enforce it. I couldn't have the dog thinking the recall is an option.
And yes, we are under strict orders to work this in the yard for a long time.




Swampcollie said:


> Forcing on recall in the field at this point in training would be counter productive as the dog is just not far enough along to so. When you have a dog with limited exposure to marks in the field you NEVER want them to come back without the bird. Help is always preferable to keep a young dog going in the right direction.
> 
> If you were to introduce a strong correction for recall when they had never experienced it before, you would cause confusion in the dog.
> 
> The dog did blow off the recall command so the handler may be pushing ahead too quickly. The place to address the recall issue is in the yard where you have better control. If you're going to up the anty in the pressure department, the yard is the place to do so, not out in the field. If you haven't used pressure in the yard for OB infractions, you can't use it in the field without confusing the dog and causing problems.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

I realize I'm arriving late to this party. But I have a couple questions, and a suggestion.

Why only 50 yards?
Why not start in lighter cover first?
If you're using pressure to support a known command, why quit?
Question 3 is in line with something very important to understand about pressure and dog training. The e-collar is a tool; an implement of force/pressure. It does not teach, but does an unmatched job of providing a trainer with enforcement at any distance, and with instant timing.

But, we use pressure in dog training for one purpose; to change behavior. When your dog did not come as commanded, it was appropriate to apply pressure to enforce the command. However, when a trainer uses pressure - especially repeatedly - and that pressure does not change the dog's behavior, they are no longer training. They're nagging.

Don't feel guilty about turning up the pressure to the point at which the behavior of the dog changes. The dog dictates that. This isn't you deciding to be vindictive. It's you being a responsible trainer. Your dog said by his behavior, "That's not enough pressure, or I would comply." Turn it up. Settle it. Make it clear that the standards are just that; the standards.

One of the interesting aspects of having this type of situation come up is that in nearly every case where the trainer has had to significantly increase pressure to achieve a behavior change, what has followed is that the dog becomes more biddable, and subsequent corrections are made far more readily and with even less pressure than usual. It's worth settling the issue!

EvanG


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Hi Evan,
I'm really glad to see you join in.
The questions....
1. Only 50 yards because we're entering a WC in later August, and they run about 35-50 yards on the land double. It was very hot out so I kept it fairly short; my goal was to run 5 marks with him. 
2. Good question. I've been asking myself the same thing, and honestly it has more to do with the lay of the land here on my property than with anything else. But in training we have worked in cover every bit as heavy and he finds the bird with no problem. The WC will be in light to moderate cover, so I should have been in lighter cover. Although, I want to reiterate that I was not upset the he didn't find the bird right away. I was upset that he ignored my commands to come in. (My trainer did tell me to knock off the heavier cover for now, btw).
3. I'm not sure I understand this question. I didn't quit until he had complied with the command, and then ran one more retrieve to pick up the bird that he missed the first time. He did a stunning job when I sent him back out; found the bird right away, returned to heel and delivered to hand. At that point I quit, however, (on a success note) because I was concerned that I was doing something wrong and wanted to put away the dog and get some opinions before going any further. 

And....he was AWESOME in our private lesson on Wednesday, and in all of his practice marks yesterday. His attitude did seem to have been adjusted, for the better.




EvanG said:


> I realize I'm arriving late to this party. But I have a couple questions, and a suggestion.
> Why only 50 yards?
> Why not start in lighter cover first?
> If you're using pressure to support a known command, why quit?
> ...


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> Hi Evan,
> I'm really glad to see you join in.
> The questions....
> 1. Only 50 yards because we're entering a WC in later August, and they run about 35-50 yards on the land double. It was very hot out so I kept it fairly short; my goal was to run 5 marks with him.


If your proposed average distances will be in that range, it will serve you and the dog better to run a wider range, including some marks 75-100 yards. Prepare your dog in such a manner that the work he'll normally be called upon to do _underwhelms_ him, not _overwhelms_ him. If you run at a max of 50 yards all the time, your dog will needlessly be performing at his outer limits.


hotel4dogs said:


> 3. I'm not sure I understand this question. I didn't quit until he had complied with the command, and then ran one more retrieve to pick up the bird that he missed the first time.


I must have misunderstood, as you had described your reluctance to dial it up when he refused.


hotel4dogs said:


> And....he was AWESOME in our private lesson on Wednesday, and in all of his practice marks yesterday. His attitude did seem to have been adjusted, *for the better*.


Well done!

EvanG


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Thanks for your comments!
In my lessons with the trainer, we're running marks up to 100-150 yards now. But I really worry about the heat, it's been just brutal here (SW of Chicago) with temps. in the upper 90's and humidity over 90%. While I don't want to just keep him in the (air conditioned!) house, I don't want him to collapse, either. Hence the shorter marks!
What does everyone do for training when it's this inhumanely hot out???





EvanG said:


> If your proposed average distances will be in that range, it will serve you and the dog better to run a wider range, including some marks 75-100 yards. Prepare your dog in such a manner that the work he'll normally be called upon to do _underwhelms_ him, not _overwhelms_ him. If you run at a max of 50 yards all the time, your dog will needlessly be performing at his outer limits.I must have misunderstood, as you had described your reluctance to dial it up when he refused.Well done!
> 
> EvanG


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

hotel4dogs said:


> Thanks for your comments!
> In my lessons with the trainer, we're running marks up to 100-150 yards now. But I really worry about the heat, it's been just brutal here (SW of Chicago) with temps. in the upper 90's and humidity over 90%. While I don't want to just keep him in the (air conditioned!) house, I don't want him to collapse, either. Hence the shorter marks!
> What does everyone do for training when it's this inhumanely hot out???



What we usually do is try and get land done by 10-11 AM before it gets too hot and then do water. A couple of weeks ago it was forecast to be over 100 and extremely humid we canceled for the first time ever.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

AmbikaGR said:


> What we usually do is try and get land done by 10-11 AM before it gets too hot and then do water. A couple of weeks ago it was forecast to be over 100 and extremely humid we canceled for the first time ever.


Good plan. We do that as well. We also plan our fieldwork to set up near water whenever possible, and involve water on one or more land marks.

EvanG


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