# Trick training troubles...



## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

Bumping up


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Lot of us would prefer to train 70-80 pound dogs NOT to jump on our backs....


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## FinnTheFloof (Jun 27, 2021)

Megora said:


> Lot of us would prefer to train 70-80 pound dogs NOT to jump on our backs....


Right now he only weighs 57 and I’ve seen people do it with GSDs and I’m determined lol
I dance for two hours most days, so I’m in pretty good physical shape, and I’d like to get a cool trick down to impress my friends.


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## GrandmaToGoldens (Jul 2, 2019)

I think Flynn might be a bit young for that training. I wouldn’t introduce games with paws on people until he’s past the excitable adolescent stage. Also, until Flynn reaches physical maturity, I’d avoid activities where there’s a risk of him falling or jumping down awkwardly and damaging his joints.

However, If I wanted to teach a dog that, I’d set him up for success by teaching him to jump and balance on a small elevated platform first. I might also do some training with a wobble board.

If you google canine parkour, you might find some ideas for activities that you can do to extend Flynn’s experience and confidence. Just keep the obstacles very low and keep hold on his harness to support him.


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## FinnTheFloof (Jun 27, 2021)

GrandmaToGoldens said:


> I think Flynn might be a bit young for that training. I wouldn’t introduce games with paws on people until he’s past the excitable adolescent stage. Also, until Flynn reaches physical maturity, I’d avoid activities where there’s a risk of him falling or jumping down awkwardly and damaging his joints.
> 
> However, If I wanted to teach a dog that, I’d set him up for success by teaching him to jump and balance on a small elevated platform first. I might also do some training with a wobble board.
> 
> If you google canine parkour, you might find some ideas for activities that you can do to extend Flynn’s experience and confidence. Just keep the obstacles very low and keep hold on his harness to support him.


Thank you!


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Ya know... you can probably do the CGC now. That's just minimal training. And go [email protected] the list of tricks on AKC- you probably have a few of those down, too- Diane posted when Logan was a puppy her trick training with lots of videos here- so that's two down.


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## FinnTheFloof (Jun 27, 2021)

Prism Goldens said:


> Ya know... you can probably do the CGC now. That's just minimal training. And go [email protected] the list of tricks on AKC- you probably have a few of those down, too- Diane posted when Logan was a puppy her trick training with lots of videos here- so that's two down.


He wouldn't pass the CGC because of his reaction to other dogs- people ask 'is he friendly?' while he's going insane and the answer is always 'too friendly!' 
We're actually going to the park today to practice this. He's improving, but still needs a lot of work. 
He'd also probably fail the 'sit politely for petting' part of the test because it says 'sit politely' not 'wiggle around like a happy worm and get everyone tangled in the leash'
We have 10 tricks for our TKN but haven't been able to find an evaluator (which is just as well because I'm waiting for his name change to go through before getting any titles).


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## Oceanside (Mar 29, 2021)

FinnTheFloof said:


> We have 10 tricks for our TKN but haven't been able to find an evaluator (which is just as well because I'm waiting for his name change to go through before getting any titles).


Have you tried emailing [email protected]? Supposedly they will help you find an evaluator. Perhaps there’s a good reason (high volume?), but I feel like they should make the Trick Dog videos an online submission like they did for virtual Rally.


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## FinnTheFloof (Jun 27, 2021)

goldenlover41 said:


> Have you tried emailing [email protected]? Supposedly they will help you find an evaluator. Perhaps there’s a good reason (high volume?), but I feel like they should make the Trick Dog videos an online submission like they did for virtual Rally.


They are an online submission, I believe.
I've asked two people if they know anyone, and reached out, but haven't gotten a response.
I will email them once his name is changed. Thank you!


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## Oceanside (Mar 29, 2021)

FinnTheFloof said:


> They are an online submission, I believe.
> I've asked two people if they know anyone, and reached out, but haven't gotten a response.
> I will email them once his name is changed. Thank you!


I think even for the video submissions you still have to submit the Trick Dog paperwork the old fashioned way, as opposed to submitting the form though their website and typing in all your information and pasting in the video link, but maybe someone who has done this recently can chime in.


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

Go Under is easy and fun. I haven't tried to teach Logan to jump on my back. No thanks.  Leg weaves seem to impress people from what I've noticed. Walking backwards is very helpful and pretty cool.

My favorite tricks are ones that come in handy for things we've done/are doing later -- like competition obedience class and agility -- things like front paws up on a platform, pivoting (both directions), walking backwards, spinning right/left, circling a cone in both directions, fetch, give, and touch. It makes me happy when I realize he has a skill for something new we are learning.

There's a Facebook group called Trick Dog Titles. If you join, you can find evaluators there.


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## FinnTheFloof (Jun 27, 2021)

diane0905 said:


> Go Under is easy and fun.


Is go under going under your body when you're kneeling like that?


diane0905 said:


> Leg weaves seem to impress people from what I've noticed.


We're working on those!


diane0905 said:


> My favorite tricks are ones that come in handy for things we've done/are doing later -- like competition obedience class and agility -- things like front paws up on a platform, pivoting (both directions), walking backwards, spinning right/left, circling a cone in both directions, fetch, give, and touch. It makes me happy when I realize he has a skill for something new we are learning.
> 
> There's a Facebook group called Trick Dog Titles. If you join, you can find evaluators there.


Thank you! He can already do some (front paws up, spinning, working on walking backwards) of those but those are some great ideas!


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

FinnTheFloof said:


> Is go under going under your body when you're kneeling like that?


Yes. I'm a bit in cat pose (as opposed to tabletop) with Logan because he's big now. We haven't done it lately. I'd probably have to add a "slow" command to temper his exuberance. lol I keep telling myself to get his advanced tricks title -- he only needs one more -- but we are busy doing so much.


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## FinnTheFloof (Jun 27, 2021)

diane0905 said:


> Yes. I'm a bit in cat pose (as opposed to tabletop) with Logan because he's big now. We haven't done it lately. I'd probably have to add a "slow" command to temper his exuberance. lol I keep telling myself to get his advanced tricks title -- he only needs one more -- but we are busy doing so much.


You should!!


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Jan Moore-

she'll do it by video.

tell her also you're looking for a Juniors dog, and that you are my bud....
R


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## FinnTheFloof (Jun 27, 2021)

Prism Goldens said:


> Jan Moore-
> [email protected]
> she'll do it by video.
> 
> ...


I already emailed her when you first mentioned her and I didn’t get a response.


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## GrandmaToGoldens (Jul 2, 2019)

FinnTheFloof said:


> He wouldn't pass the CGC because of his reaction to other dogs- people ask 'is he friendly?' while he's going insane and the answer is always 'too friendly!'
> We're actually going to the park today to practice this. He's improving, but still needs a lot of work.
> He'd also probably fail the 'sit politely for petting' part of the test because it says 'sit politely' not 'wiggle around like a happy worm and get everyone tangled in the leash'


I refer to my four-year-old dog as “my social butterfly”. I wish I’d focused on training calm greetings when she was younger. I was in such a hurry to start competing that I neglected manners training. Honey won her first Obedience and Rally competitions at 10 months old, but I REALLY wish I’d taught the essentials first.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

FinnTheFloof said:


> He wouldn't pass the CGC because of his reaction to other dogs- people ask 'is he friendly?' while he's going insane and the answer is always 'too friendly!'
> We're actually going to the park today to practice this. He's improving, but still needs a lot of work.
> He'd also probably fail the 'sit politely for petting' part of the test because it says 'sit politely' not 'wiggle around like a happy worm and get everyone tangled in the leash'
> We have 10 tricks for our TKN but haven't been able to find an evaluator (which is just as well because I'm waiting for his name change to go through before getting any titles).


If you have your 10 tricks, make a video and send it to me! I would be happy to evaluate him! Just remember that I need to see each trick done twice in each video!


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

FinnTheFloof said:


> I already emailed her when you first mentioned her and I didn’t get a response.


She said she didn't get an email from you- I did ask her that same day.


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## FinnTheFloof (Jun 27, 2021)

Prism Goldens said:


> She said she didn't get an email from you- I did ask her that same day.


Oh, thank you for letting me know! I will try again.


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## rosegold (Nov 9, 2016)

FinnTheFloof said:


> He wouldn't pass the CGC because of his reaction to other dogs- people ask 'is he friendly?' while he's going insane and the answer is always 'too friendly!'
> We're actually going to the park today to practice this. He's improving, but still needs a lot of work.
> He'd also probably fail the 'sit politely for petting' part of the test because it says 'sit politely' not 'wiggle around like a happy worm and get everyone tangled in the leash'
> We have 10 tricks for our TKN but haven't been able to find an evaluator (which is just as well because I'm waiting for his name change to go through before getting any titles).


I relate to this ha. That was our toughest part of training for CGC with a golden puppy --- sit politely for petting. We enlisted the help of family and friends and had some high value treats on hand. Once he was good with that we went to the park and Lowes to do more of the same. Our instructor also allowed us to give calm verbal praise ("good boy") while he was sitting. No treats are allowed during the test though. 

I do think it's worth working on if reaction to dogs and people are his main issue, and going for the CGC. Only reason I mention it is that it really does come in very useful now in everyday life and obedience, and I'm glad we spent so much time working on it


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## FinnTheFloof (Jun 27, 2021)

rosegold said:


> I relate to this ha. That was our toughest part of training for CGC with a golden puppy --- sit politely for petting. We enlisted the help of family and friends and had some high value treats on hand. Once he was good with that we went to the park and Lowes to do more of the same. Our instructor also allowed us to give calm verbal praise ("good boy") while he was sitting. No treats are allowed during the test though.
> 
> I do think it's worth working on if reaction to dogs and people are his main issue, and going for the CGC. Only reason I mention it is that it really does come in very useful now in everyday life and obedience, and I'm glad we spent so much time working on it


I'm definitely working on it, just struggling to find people with dogs to help. None of our neighborhood pet dog friends are interested in just having their dogs sit so that we can practice walking past them 😅 I might be able to set something up with a dog person, but she's busy this weekend, so we'll have to wait.


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## FinnTheFloof (Jun 27, 2021)

I regret teaching several tricks with luring because now I have to fade it out and am STRUGGLING lol


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## FinnTheFloof (Jun 27, 2021)

Also, for getting a dog to carry a basket- everything says to give the dog a treat after he puts his mouth on it/picks it up, but if I do that, he'll grab it and immediately spit it out for his treat. Any suggestions?


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

think you need to work on 'hold' - with a bumper- which'll come in handy later if you decide to do some field work. Take/hold/hold/hold/ give. over and over.


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## pawsnpaca (Nov 11, 2014)

If you want to eventually teach Finn to jump on your back you may want to invest in some fit paws equipment and start training him to be comfortable standing on those. It will build his muscles and body awareness and hopefully make it easier for him to stay on your back when you get to that point. Even if you never pursue that particular "trick," teaching him body awareness, and making sure he's strong physically, will help in any venue you choose.

I don't know if there is anyone near you who is offering anything re canine fitness, but you may want to Google "Karen Kay dog fitness". She's based in Deerfield, NH but I believe she may offer online "courses" through her Facebook page to start you on some basic exercises to build fitness for your dog.


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## FinnTheFloof (Jun 27, 2021)

Prism Goldens said:


> think you need to work on 'hold' - with a bumper- which'll come in handy later if you decide to do some field work. Take/hold/hold/hold/ give. over and over.


Thank you! Do you think that I could do it with something else, like a toy? We have bumpers but they are for our boat and are too big to fit in his mouth.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

just buy a bumper (dummy) meant for dog training= it'll be something you will use over and over.


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## FinnTheFloof (Jun 27, 2021)

Prism Goldens said:


> just buy a bumper (dummy) meant for dog training= it'll be something you will use over and over.











Does it matter which type?


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## GrandmaToGoldens (Jul 2, 2019)

FinnTheFloof said:


> I regret teaching several tricks with luring because now I have to fade it out and am STRUGGLING lol


I’ve used luring with Honey and this is how I made it work:
Lure with one hand but reward from the other hand, then start using the lure movement without food in that hand, so that it becomes a extended signal. Gradually abbreviate the signal. 
Switch to intermittent rewards as quickly as possible, working quickly to take the dog’s attention off the lack of reward. My sequence might be sit-reward and release-sit-reward and release-sit-yay and release-sit-reward and release-sit-yay and release-sit-yay and release-sit-huge reward and release and hug, all in less than a minute.

Switching from a food lure and reward to a retrievable as lure and reward for part of your training would also be useful.


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## GrandmaToGoldens (Jul 2, 2019)

FinnTheFloof said:


> Also, for getting a dog to carry a basket- everything says to give the dog a treat after he puts his mouth on it/picks it up, but if I do that, he'll grab it and immediately spit it out for his treat. Any suggestions?


Reverse luring methods (given various names depending on who’s “selling” the idea) are useful for teaching duration activities, from a stay to a dummy hold. At their simplest, the lure/reward is temporarily removed as a lost reward signal when the dog breaks duration by moving from the stay or dropping the dumbbell, for example. My lost reward signal with Honey is moving the hand with the reward behind my back, but I have used simply closing my hand to teach other dogs.
When I’m teaching the retrieve or hold, I use something soft (like a roll of fabric) that I won’t want to use later in competition. That way, if there is a problem in early training, the dog won’t associate it with something I need him to retrieve.


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

I taught “hold” by giving the dog a dumbbell and saying hold as I tapped the underside of the jaw. With lots of work, he’s learned to pick up anything I ask him to. He even wanted to help the judge when she dropped her pen in a trial!


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## FinnTheFloof (Jun 27, 2021)

Abeille said:


> I taught “hold” by giving the dog a dumbbell and saying hold as I tapped the underside of the jaw. With lots of work, he’s learned to pick up anything I ask him to. He even wanted to help the judge when she dropped her pen in a trial!


Awww, that's so cute!


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## FinnTheFloof (Jun 27, 2021)

We did it!! He got his TKN!!


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## FinnTheFloof (Jun 27, 2021)

*me continuously being reminded that some tricks are easier with a 40 pound dog than with a 60 pound dog


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## FinnTheFloof (Jun 27, 2021)

FinnTheFloof said:


> View attachment 885934
> 
> Does it matter which type?


Does the type of bumper matter? I'd like to order one so it will be here when I get back from my trip.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I think they sell singles- ORANGE Lucky Dog Dummies -- 6 Pack


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## FinnTheFloof (Jun 27, 2021)

Prism Goldens said:


> I think they sell singles- ORANGE Lucky Dog Dummies -- 6 Pack


Thank you!


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## FinnTheFloof (Jun 27, 2021)

Got the bumper- it's a bit too big for him to comfortably put it in his mouth, but we're working on it.


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

Congrats on your TKN!!


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## FinnTheFloof (Jun 27, 2021)

diane0905 said:


> Congrats on your TKN!!


Thank you!!


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## FinnTheFloof (Jun 27, 2021)

Nobody:
Finn: *sits up so enthusiastically out of a down that he clonks his snoot on my hand with an audible clonk noise


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## FinnTheFloof (Jun 27, 2021)

I'm trying to decide if teaching a heel is a ''This is an important learning experience and everyone makes mistakes'' situation or a ''this is one thing that is _very_ important that you don't mess up because it will make your life very hard later'' situation

Once he can heel we could start working on Rally signs but I've been worried that starting it wrong will cause loads of problems down the line.


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## GrandmaToGoldens (Jul 2, 2019)

FinnTheFloof said:


> I'm trying to decide if teaching a heel is a ''This is an important learning experience and everyone makes mistakes'' situation or a ''this is one thing that is _very_ important that you don't mess up because it will make your life very hard later'' situation
> 
> Once he can heel we could start working on Rally signs but I've been worried that starting it wrong will cause loads of problems down the line.


I’d vote for a bit of both. Everyone makes mistakes, because each dog is an individual, but most mistakes can be fixed. I see two mistakes that people struggle to fix: making heeling unpleasant or boring so that the dog learns to hate the exercise, and letting the dog discover that the handler doesn’t have control once the leash is removed.


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## FinnTheFloof (Jun 27, 2021)

Eh, to hell with it- I'm going to start training for rally along with scent work, and focus more on reversing our disastrous socialization job that's made him bonkers.


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## FinnTheFloof (Jun 27, 2021)

Tried to start heeling tonight with some pivoting. He targets the box just fine, but only thinks that he has two legs, so when I try to get him to move his back ones he gets frustrated.








*lays down in frustration

His leg weaves are coming along really well, though! Thank you @diane0905 for the suggestion!








(sorry about the poor quality photo, it's a screenshot from a video)


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## GrandmaToGoldens (Jul 2, 2019)

I’d split the sidestep with the hind legs out from the platform work and use a clicker. I rarely use a clicker but I find it useful when I’m aiming for a very specific movement such as a sidestep with the hind legs or a step backwards. A floor-length mirror also helps because it makes it easier to see the instant of foot movement. You need to click and reward the instant the dog takes a sideways step. Once he’s freely taking one sidestep, you can wait for two, then four, then combine it with platform work in heel or front position.
There are a few ways to get the sideways step. One way is simply to lure the dog around a cone or a small item of furniture. Another way is to hold your hand down at your side, palm towards your leg, with food or a toy between your thumb and the palm of your hand. Encourage Flynn to put his nose between your hand and your leg, trying to access the food or toy, then turn towards him so that his head turns. He’s likely to step sideways to straighten his neck.

Congratulations on teaching the leg weave. I’ve been trying to teach leg weaves to my CDX, RM dog, with little success.


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## FinnTheFloof (Jun 27, 2021)

GrandmaToGoldens said:


> I’d split the sidestep with the hind legs out from the platform work and use a clicker. I rarely use a clicker but I find it useful when I’m aiming for a very specific movement such as a sidestep with the hind legs or a step backwards. A floor-length mirror also helps because it makes it easier to see the instant of foot movement. You need to click and reward the instant the dog takes a sideways step. Once he’s freely taking one sidestep, you can wait for two, then four, then combine it with platform work in heel or front position.
> There are a few ways to get the sideways step. One way is simply to lure the dog around a cone or a small item of furniture. Another way is to hold your hand down at your side, palm towards your leg, with food or a toy between your thumb and the palm of your hand. Encourage Flynn to put his nose between your hand and your leg, trying to access the food or toy, then turn towards him so that his head turns. He’s likely to step sideways to straighten his neck.


I will try that!! I've also been trying to start working on rear leg awareness by having him back up and having him back onto a low platform (rn it's just a cushion).



GrandmaToGoldens said:


> Congratulations on teaching the leg weave. I’ve been trying to teach leg weaves to my CDX, RM dog, with little success.


Thank you! It took a while but I'm very happy with how it's going.


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

Yay for the weaves! They are so much fun!!

For pivots, I stood in front of Logan holding a treat in front of me with both hands — and low enough he didn’t attempt to sit. I would very slightly inch my self in one direction (to the right was easier) until I saw him make any move my with his rear legs and then immediately click and treat. FWIW, I used a round bowl with a big enough flat bottom that didn’t slip around on the floor. He eventually connected his rear legs moving was what was getting clicked/treated.

Once he had one direction down, I taught the other. Next I would combine a few steps right and a few steps left. We kept practicing over time until he could go completely around both ways.

After that, I taught him to do paws up in heel position. Throw a treat behind you and as he comes back point at it and say paws up. Or whatever you’re using for that command. Then we began the inching around process with me moving my foot closest to the bowl. Click/treat the second his hind legs made movement. Once it worked inching all the way around with him on both sides, I started taking 1/4 steps around the bowl. Then we moved onto without the bowl — sometimes back and forth between the two until he got it. 

It’s a process.  Y’all can do it!


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## rosegold (Nov 9, 2016)

Great job with the leg weaves!


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## FinnTheFloof (Jun 27, 2021)

rosegold said:


> Great job with the leg weaves!


Thank you!


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## DevWind (Nov 7, 2016)

Hind end awareness....lay a ladder down on the ground and he him step between the rungs.


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## FinnTheFloof (Jun 27, 2021)

Abeille said:


> Hind end awareness....lay a ladder down on the ground and he him step between the rungs.


I am planning to do that today!


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## FinnTheFloof (Jun 27, 2021)

Success!!


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## FinnTheFloof (Jun 27, 2021)

Me: Ok Finn, we've been working on rear end awareness for a week, all I want is for you to move your back legs in a circle for me
Finn: I have two legs and nothing you say will convince me otherwise


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

FinnTheFloof said:


> Me: Ok Finn, we've been working on rear end awareness for a week, all I want is for you to move your back legs in a circle for me
> Finn: I have two legs and nothing you say will convince me otherwise


😅 Not that I'm an expert dog trainer, but I was able to get Logan to pivot. How are you doing it?

I'm going to start working on getting Logan to retrieve a bumper on land. He loves doing it in the water, but ignores it on land -- we've only tried once.


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## FinnTheFloof (Jun 27, 2021)

diane0905 said:


> 😅 Not that I'm an expert dog trainer, but I was able to get Logan to pivot. How are you doing it?
> 
> I'm going to start working on getting Logan to retrieve a bumper on land. He loves doing it in the water, but ignores it on land -- we've only tried once.


Finn LOVES his bumper because he only gets it when I say so, and I built up a lot of drive for it by basically making it a BIG deal. He runs so fast for that thing. I'm struggling with getting him to deliver to hand, though. Maybe it would be a good idea to teach fronts before teaching retrieves because I want to do rally?

I'm having him walk through a ladder and target stuff with his back legs. For pivoting, I've been walking into him to force him to move (with his front paws on a box) and marking when he moves his back legs. However, he won't take more than one step and won't move without me pushing him.


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## diane0905 (Aug 20, 2010)

FinnTheFloof said:


> Finn LOVES his bumper because he only gets it when I say so, and I built up a lot of drive for it by basically making it a BIG deal. He runs so fast for that thing. I'm struggling with getting him to deliver to hand, though. Maybe it would be a good idea to teach fronts before teaching retrieves because I want to do rally?
> 
> I'm having him walk through a ladder and target stuff with his back legs. For pivoting, I've been walking into him to force him to move (with his front paws on a box) and marking when he moves his back legs. However, he won't take more than one step and won't move without me pushing him.


I just played with Logan's outside and he was happy and going to get it/returning it to me. Hmmmm. Maybe he didn't want to show off too much first lesson. 

I think I just held a treat low enough in front of me that he wouldn't sit and then I moved slightly around the bowl -- inching my feet around-- until his rear feet moved (click and treat.) As soon as he had one way down pretty well, I started working on the other, and then windshield wipered him after that as a progression. Once he could do all of that, I'd toss a treat behind me and have him come up in heel position beside me and start inching around getting him to pivot in heel position. Once we could do all of that, we started practicing pivots without the bowl.


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