# Junior Hunt Rules and Experiences



## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

We talked about stickies in the Hunt and Field Section. As a first time handler I had to look elsewhere for help, experience and direction. 

First time handlers are nervous, the pro I have trained along with has told me that m dogs were ready but I was not ready to take the plunge. I was a nervous wreck during my first hunt test. People were telling me to breathe and I was afraid to because with every breath I felt like throwing up. I can always put a confidence face and attitude on me but my golden can always read beneath that face. 

I could not have read more and more about not touching the dog once you signaled the judge you were ready. I could not have read more about introducing your dog to different waters, terrain and birds. I could not have heard more about train for the upper level and when they can do that they can do the lower level. 

I was expecting both my girls to come into heat soon after the test. I was expecting both to be scatterbrained because my own nervousness trying to handle two dogs in a double junior. I even asked for help for someone to stand by and help me handle at least one. I was so frustrated as I was told, yeah I will stand by but you can do it. 

I hope this will be a place where others will express their successes and failures alike. We can learn from both of them. 

As a first time handler and tester the AKC rules, the EE entries were less important. What I wanted to see was others' experiences on their tests. 

First step is to look at Entry Express Event Management Systems. You can not only find the tests in your area but you can also search for a series of past and future tests in your area that will connect you with clubs in your area. 

Then read and re-read the AKC regulations http://images.akc.org/pdf/rulebooks/RHTRET.pdf
It is 64 pages and it is worth your time. Sometimes you find yourself relaxed reading it and other times (the more you get into it) you tend to get more nervous.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

I also get very nervous. However, I now feel much more comfortable and relaxed at the line. I attribute this to becoming a better handler.

One girl in my group gets such anxiety when she runs her dog that she has to take a Xanax.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

hahaha - I thought about taking the dog thunder calming pills with me. I freaked out when I saw that in the first test my dogs were Darcy 24 and Rose 37 and in the second test the same day they were Rose 4 and Darcy 23. I had no idea how I was going to juggle the running order between the two locations. Had no idea what to ask the marshals before the test started. 
Luckily they were very relaxed and knowing I was running two dogs they were very accommodating. Nothing is better than a well organized test and good marshals that know the situation on the ground. 
One thing I learned was that once on the ground the running order is not completely strict. And the more experienced the marshal the better for the handler and the dogs and ultimately the judges and the workstation people as the test runs smoothly and no time is wasted.


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

don't worry I get nervous! I actually am a lot better now but going in front of people gets me freaked out! I have to say that I think Katniss does a bit better with me stressed than when Im relaxed. It is like she knows she has to keep her [email protected] together cause her mom is about to lose it! 
I've had lots of kooky things happen to me. One of the worst was when she went to poo and we thought she just dropped the bird but me and judges couldn't see that far and I was panicking that she was just leaving the bird and walking off. Then we figured it out and laughed about it. Katniss on the other hand knew what she was doing, she poo'd then went back and picked up her bird and came in.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

One of the things I do is practice attention skills I learned in an attention class in the holding blind. I say "watch" and Lucy looks at me and I say "yes". She seems to smile when I do that. Then I do obedience left turn spins and say "get back". So I try to play around with her to make it feel more like a team. It really helps. Reilly doesn't care. He's just so happy just being there, your nervousness doesn't bother him.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Xanax is something I need in the obedience ring. The night before a trial I don't get a lick of sleep and my heart races all night up until we are done. For some reason, hunt tests are delightfully different! Of course, I have only run WC, JH, and Started where the handler barely does a thing. But, I don't know, I was nervous but not overly so for my first test even though I drew #1! It probably helped that I had a LOT of support from friends. By the third and fourth tests (where I had to do without my support group) I was fine. I actually think more clearly at a test than at training. At our first test, I ALMOST grabbed Molly's collar before taking the bird. I jerked my hand back up so fast when I realized what I was doing. I also remembered very clearly that the line is mine.. Don't call for the bird if you're not 100% ready. You don't have to send when they say "dog" if you're not ready. Molly was going to bank cheat at test #3. Even with my hand on her collar she turned her whole body, ready to run around the pond. So after they said "dog", I realigned her to enter the water. I know it could have cost me the pass if she cheated. Maybe not most other dogs, but for Molly, yes, it could have.


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

Viv so funny, I get WAY more stressed out at the hunt stuff than the OB stuff. Maybe it is just that I identify more with the old dog ladies than the ******* southern hunters that we have down here, lol!


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

That is good to know Vivian. I thought that the dog had to be ready and aligned once you told the judge you were ready.

I posted in another thread how I was at the land test with Darcy. She kept on looking towards the second mark. I tried to align her to the first one. I gently lifted her by the collar to get her Bozo head off that direction. I normally get the dog set, tell it to mark and then signal the judges. The moment I did the collar thing the judge said "You are not allowed to touch the dog!" The first thought was "oh cwap", then "wait I did not signal that I was ready". But I proceeded to leave. The second judge said "after you signal you cannot touch the dog". Phew! 
I have no clue how I made it back with Darcy to the car. Needless to say I did not dare align her afterwards. Her hearing is so good, she can hear a feather drop a mile away. I stepped away from her so she can turn the moment she heard the duck call and let her go once the judge said dog. I was also afraid that she may touch me the moment she turns towards the duck call and get sent back to the car in a walk of shame.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

The dog can touch you all it wants, It's your actions you have to worry about.

I know it's hard for handlers to relax when they're making their first trips to the line with a dog. If you weren't nervous you shouldn't be playing the game. 

One little hint for the first time handlers. Don't send the dog immediately upon release by the judges. Take your time, let the dog settle in and focus on its' mark. Then when you're ready, send the dog. If you establish a pattern of sending the dog immediately upon release by the judges, the dog may start going (breaking) upon hearing the judges speak rather than waiting for you to send them. 

If I'm handling a dog, the first word out my mouth upon release by the judges is "Sit". After I make sure the dog is lined up correctly, I then send the dog.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

In training when the "judge" said dog I would tell the dog whoa so the dogs will not go until they hear their name. 

So Swampcollie, are you allowed to talk to your dog other than send the dog once that you tell the judge you are ready?


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

MillionsofPeaches said:


> Viv so funny, I get WAY more stressed out at the hunt stuff than the OB stuff. Maybe it is just that I identify more with the old dog ladies than the ******* southern hunters that we have down here, lol!



Lol! In my limited experience, the "******* hunters" are usually at the HRC tests. 

I think different people get nervous for different reasons. I feel that the obedience world is a little too uptight for me and that not only am I being judged by the judge but by everyone watching. Being judged by an audience makes me nervous lol. Hunt tests are more fun, people are more relaxed, and I sorta enjoy showing people what my little show golden can do. 

I think, when the stakes are higher, the nerves will probably come back.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Claudia M said:


> So Swampcollie, are you allowed to talk to your dog other than send the dog once that you tell the judge you are ready?


People make this out to be way more than it is.

The only time you can't talk to the dog is the period of time between when you signal that you're ready and the judges call your number (Dog). 
It's really just a matter of a few seconds. After that you're free to talk to the dog again. 

However be careful about "What" you say and "How" you say it. You don't want to create the impression that you're trying to "Handle" the dog when you're not intending to. "How" you say things matters. If the dog flinches, tucks it's tail or gives the appearance of being intimidated, you could be in danger of failing the test.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Thank you Swampcollie, this is great information for new handlers and may put some of the new handler worries to rest. 

I have many times seen the advise to take the duck as soon as the dog comes back. If, and I emphasize on IF, the dog comes to a heel to deliver the duck each time in training would you still take the duck before the dog goes into a heel?

Would that not create a behavior that you may have to correct going forward? 

I started doing that a week or two before the test and noticed Rose was a bit confused at my own behavior and once the duck was out I had to command her to heel as she was standing there not knowing what to do with this new behavior from me.


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## tpd5 (Nov 7, 2013)

Claudia M said:


> I have many times seen the advise to take the duck as soon as the dog comes back. If, and I emphasize on IF, the dog comes to a heel to deliver the duck each time in training would you still take the duck before the dog goes into a heel?
> 
> Would that not create a behavior that you may have to correct going forward?
> 
> I started doing that a week or two before the test and noticed Rose was a bit confused at my own behavior and once the duck was out I had to command her to heel as she was standing there not knowing what to do with this new behavior from me.



In training I always have my dog deliver to hand at heel. Have never had a problem and continued that through 5 hrc tests this spring. At our first junior test in June the flyer came back to life just as he was coming to heel, he was caught off guard and dropped the bird. After finally getting him to pick it up I decided from that point forward I would just grab the bird as he was coming in. I have only ever done that in the four junior tests and have seen no issues arise in training or since then.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Ah, it's known around here as the Junior scoop.

Winter delivered all her birds sitting at heel in Junior except her the last one in test #4. That was the title bird and I scooped it out of her mouth before she had a chance to sit. I was little excited.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Does anyone know if a dog will fail at any level of NAHRA, AKC hunt tests or AKC field trials if they don't sit on the return? I don't want to continue to allow her not to sit on return if she won't be allowed to at a higher level. Lucy hates to sit after she is sent for the first bird, she prefers to stand. If I don't need to correct her for that, then I won't.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

hollyk said:


> Ah, it know around here as the *Junior scoop*.
> 
> Winter delivered all her birds sitting at heel in Junior except her the last one in test #4. That was the title bird and I scooped it out of her mouth before she had a chance to sit. I was little excited.


I like that terminology - JUNIOR SCOOP!


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## boomers_dawn (Sep 20, 2009)

I still get nervous too and have an out of body experience and sometimes my mind goes blank or I forget where I am and what I'm doing - NOT conducive to being a thoughtful and present half of the team!

Last time I ran Dee Dee I didn't think to help her as much as I could have.

I'll never forget my first HT, I drove 3 hours only to go home after picking up 0 birds.
We had a walk up and I had never practiced walk ups before.
At our club training, someone had asked "who wants to do walk ups?"
And I had said "naw, we don't have to, it's the same thing except you're moving instead of standing still".

Well guess what, moving instead of standing still was WAY different.
There were ribbons everywhere demarking where to walk, where quacking starts, where we should stop .... my head was swivelling all around trying to figure out where we were supposed to be and what we should be doing .. neither me nor Boomer ever saw any bird :-(

***CURRENT AKC RULEBOOK EFF THIS DAYS DATE WALKUPS IN SENIOR AND MASTER ONLY *** NO WALKUPS IN JUNIOR AT THIS TIME *****

So I would just try to be as prepared as possible. 
Try to train for anything and everything they could throw at you.
Try to know the rules and what you need to know and do.

Sometimes some of the rules can be a little subjective so unclear - know that too.

If you have prepared for that, you can feel good about yourself and forgive yourself honest mistakes, the fact that most of us don't have photographic memories and may forget something, or the fact that poopy happens sometimes.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Dawn,
On walk ups, do you know ahead of time it will be a walk up or is it a surprise? 
When you do a walk up, does the dog have to sit before being sent since they are walking?
Good to mention the walk up, I've never practiced them either.


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## boomers_dawn (Sep 20, 2009)

Alaska7133 said:


> Dawn,
> On walk ups, do you know ahead of time it will be a walk up or is it a surprise?
> When you do a walk up, does the dog have to sit before being sent since they are walking?
> Good to mention the walk up, I've never practiced them either.


I realize now I shouldn't have mentioned that / bad example in this thread about Junior, because they got rid of it out of AKC Junior.
http://images.akc.org/pdf/rulebooks/RHTRET.pdf

Page 23 - Senior and Master.

They tell you ahead of time when they do the scenario and test dog.
I believe they got rid of it out of AKC Junior b/c the dog can be on leash so it doesn't make sense.

But they change the rules so who knows, maybe it'll be back someday :yuck:


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Claudia M said:


> I have many times seen the advise to take the duck as soon as the dog comes back. If, and I emphasize on IF, the dog comes to a heel to deliver the duck each time in training would you still take the duck before the dog goes into a heel?


The dog is not required to come into heel at any test level. It is however rather difficult to line up a dog for the next bird in a multiple marking situation if they are not at your side.


I usually front the dog to receive the last bird. In the case of a Junior Test, it is singles, so every bird is the last bird. In Senior or Master Tests the front finish is a cue to the dog that it is DONE picking up marks. So as we move to the honor the dog is not going anywhere because she knows her work is finished.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

One of the things that upset handlers at Junior more than anything else is asking them to do something they didn't think about or prepare for prior to the test. They quickly skimmed the section on Junior, 2 marks on land, 2 marks on water. Done Right??? 

Wrong!

That description is of the basic MINIMUM standard elements that must be included to call it a legitimate test. The Judges can be more thorough in their test design and include more elements but they can not include less. A junior test can include as many marks as the judges deem necessary. They can also include such things as a hunt em up, or sitting quietly on lead while the next dog works. 

In the early years of the hunt test program it was very common to see a hunt em up and at least 5 marks in every Junior Test. As the numbers in junior entries drop to more manageable levels those other elements we used to see will likely come back into play on a regular basis.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

I was told to always train a step above of what you are testing. As far as walk-ups I have only seen them done in training for SH AND MH. What I have seen is that you do the first throw as a walk up and then the second the the dog is in a sit. You sit the dog after the walk up for the second throw.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

I saw our Pro today and he wrote down on a piece of paper what my dog should be able to do in order to run Senior. The last item said, "get dog to look off live flyer and run blind". I asked him, "she needs to do this in senior??" He said it's not going to be in a senior test, but in order to be successful and get four ribbons in a row, we will have to be trained above the senior level. 

I wouldn't have run junior if I didn't know for sure she was ready. I knew she was ready last fall, but didn't test until spring. I am glad I waited, because our last two tests were not the kind of straightforward junior tests most would expect but at the same time, they were not anything she had not seen before. At our tests, I worried more about what *I* might do wrong. I knew Molly was more than ready.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Vivian, can you elaborate on "not the kind of straightforward junior test" so anyone who will read as a first time handler can see and maybe expect? 

I hope more people on the forum that have been thru this can post their experiences (good and bad) and elaborate. 

I found an interesting comment on RTF - Junior Hunt tests are more for the handlers than the dogs. To some degree I agree with that as long as your dog is prepared, has been introduced to different birds has done some SH levels. 
However I have seen a person who was at the test and the dog was not worked at all in the field. That person thought the dog should pass the JH on instinct alone. It did not.


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

One big thing I would recommend is make sure your dog can pick up a very live and squawking LARGE duck. Not the birds or quail your dog plays around with in the yard. 

The very first JH test we went to it was in VERY high cover on lots of hilly land. The judges could not see the live flyer as it landed in the deep cover on the other side of the slope and it stood still at first. They called dog and Kat took off. The judge actually told me as Kat took off how good she did and said, "ye of little faith.." I will never forget that. But Kat had never seen a duck like that before. It is hard to get live flyers over here and we didn't have any before the test. So once she got to that duck it was not even shot, like a wing had been clipped but the rest of it was live and pissedd off at the world. It was hissing and pecking and Katniss got up to it and just turned right around and started for me with eyes as big as saucers. She was scared, lol. Apparently, everyone told me that they should not have called dog on that kind of duck but they couldn't see it and once she left it was too late. The judges felt really bad because she was the only dog that had lined it so far and didn't have to hunt. It was a very tough set up in my opinion but nothing she hadn't seen before. I

Since then I've had 8 live ducks that we've taped the heads or clipped a wing that Katniss has gotten to experience. So honestly I would say prep your dog with some strong willed ducks to make sure they won't scare your dog at a test. A lot of dogs love this and Kat got all frisky and loved it too once she understood she was more powerful than the duck but that first time, boy did that scare her!


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

MOP,
Good point, cripple flyers can be hard for a lot of dogs. Lucy had a loud one last month that was flapping and trying to get away. Lucy hesitated for a couple of seconds, then I said, fetch it up. She immediately got her mouth on it and brought it back. It was dead by the time she got back (I think she squeezed it to death). Had she never had a live flyer, she may have had more of a problem. I have seen dogs not pick them up. I think if a dog is over that, the cripples are easy to see/hear for a dog and get them, than a completely dead bird laying in the field. I wish that tests used only live birds actually. One NAHRA test I was at, the birds were so old that some of the dogs were rolling on them rather than pick them up.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

One of my favorite Junior memories is of a young Golden girl who went out to her flier and found it a little more alive then she was expecting. She started to return to her owner but then stopped and looked back at the bird. I swear you could see her screw down her courage. She returned to the bird circled it, calculated her best angle, rushed in and grabbed it. She came back at a dead run and delivered to hand. The gallery went wild.


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

that is SO cool that the girl went back and got it!! No, Stacey this bird wasn't near death in the least. They had to chase it and relaunch it and shoot it over again. After that, the judges had me resend her and she got it. The second day Kat had a cripple that was injured! What were the chances? But Katniss was so smart, she acted like she didn't know where it was (I knew she did) and she circled all around. The bird had hobbled off and was behind several hay bales and you couldn't see Kat or the bird from the our vantage point so you only saw Katniss going in and out of our line of vision looking like she was hunting. The judges told me, just wait let her hunt it up. I was thinking in my head okay if you think that is what she is doing that's fine, ha ha. But finally she braved it and got the bird after it had settled down enough. It did die on the way back. 

I was laughing it was my friend shooting and I kidded him about not shooting well enough


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

And that is another point, make sure your dogs will pick up nasty birds! That is how we force fetched them to the birds, with gross nasty birds, lol. I've seen dogs refuse those kind on day two when they are reusing them. I do feel sorry for the dogs in that respect. Peaches brought a bird back with the very tip of a wing in her mouth because it was just too nasty, ha ha


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Check what birds are being used and make sure your dog has fetched it before the test. One JH test we had we used pheasants for the land series. About 25% of the dogs had never seen a pheasant and had trouble picking them up.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I have very limited opportunities to work water with my dogs. At my first test, water was a really large body of water. First mark, there was an island between the dog and the mark. When my dog got over the island and could see where the mark should have been, it wasn't there - the moving water had carried it away. He looked around the area, but he had never had to hunt in swimming water before, and had never had his bird moved by current before, so he never made it far enough away from the original area to find it.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Glad you mention the island Jodie. I had trouble with both girls before test to go from land into water, first tiny island, back into water, second tiny island and then again in the water to pick up the mark. Both wanted to swim to the opposite shore and then come back on land. I had to simplify and work water to first island, then right past the island into the water and then mark onto the second island. 

Since we brought Rose home we looked for water to train in and did not find anything until I found the training clubs this past November. Just in time for winter of course. So we started with the water in May/June this year.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Loisiana said:


> I have very limited opportunities to work water with my dogs. At my first test, water was a really large body of water. First mark, there was an island between the dog and the mark. When my dog got over the island and could see where the mark should have been, it wasn't there - the moving water had carried it away. He looked around the area, but he had never had to hunt in swimming water before, and had never had his bird moved by current before, so he never made it far enough away from the original area to find it.


This particular situation has three factors: 1) Driving over the island and then hunting, the dog probably couldn't see the landing zone, many dogs won't leave the land and 2) dealing with the moving water.

You did say the water was moving. I haven't seen a test like this yet and I don't know anybody who trains in moving water (stream or tidal creek) except for the hunter. 

One other thing, you say he never had to hunt in swimming water. Something to train on. One of the things I particularly like to see is Goldens swimming. It helps dispel a myth...


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Wonder why the judges did not plant the bird on the island or on the land across the water! 

Is there a myth about Goldens Swimming? I did not know that.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Claudia M said:


> Wonder why the judges did not plant the bird on the island or on the land across the water!
> 
> Is there a myth about Goldens Swimming? I did not know that.


Ask a Lab owner.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

He had plenty of experience swimming, he just never had an experience where he didn't really pin a mark that landed in water.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Loisiana said:


> He had plenty of experience swimming, he just never had an experience where he didn't really pin a mark that landed in water.


I am curious, was this in a pond with a current, a stream, or a pond in which the wind was blowing? One WC/WCX test that I attended had a strong wind that moved the bird several yards. Several WC dogs couldn't find the bird.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

What I hate are sinkers, old ducks that float at the water line and don't show up very well. I had a NAHRA test this summer where my dog and I just could not see the duck. It was so bad, the judge couldn't either. So the guy at the gunner station sent his pick up dog to it and had to handle to the bird. Luckily they re-did it for me since it wasn't possible to get that bird without handling.

We have a lot of moving water here with fast moving streams. My dogs are fearless and are great at letting themselves get swept downstream to cross to the other side. But no experience with pheasants since we don't have them in Alaska. I was thinking about doing a JH at golden national, George you've made me think twice now since Lucy has never seen a pheasant. She has had chukar and quail do you think that's close enough?


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Alaska7133 said:


> What I hate are sinkers, old ducks that float at the water line and don't show up very well. I had a NAHRA test this summer where my dog and I just could not see the duck. It was so bad, the judge couldn't either. So the guy at the gunner station sent his pick up dog to it and had to handle to the bird. Luckily they re-did it for me since it wasn't possible to get that bird without handling.
> 
> We have a lot of moving water here with fast moving streams. My dogs are fearless and are great at letting themselves get swept downstream to cross to the other side. But no experience with pheasants since we don't have them in Alaska. I was thinking about doing a JH at golden national, George you've made me think twice now since Lucy has never seen a pheasant. She has had chukar and quail do you think that's close enough?


Not close enough. Many dogs do not like pheasants, The feathers bother them. My experience is that the dogs love chukars. However I have heard that if dogs have not had experience with chukars they may present a problem.

Are pheasants being used at the Nationals? Any way to make contacts to get pheasants? Have a dead one shipped to you?


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Loisiana

We also have very limited opportunities with water. It is a real problem. In fact probably 95% of our training time is land. 

The technical ponds that we have were dug by our clubs on land that was part of Grumman. The DEC acquired the land and now limits its use. Ponds are inaccessable at times due to the presence of the Tiger Salamander which were never there before.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

If introduced to multiple species of birds, most dogs will prefer pheasants. (I don't blame them they taste the best.) If dog's have only seen one species of training bird, changing to something else will definately rock the boat. Ducks and geese have a lot of oil on there feathers, pheasants and chukar do not. If you have trained only with upland birds, you're in deep doo doo if the first duck your dog see's is in a test. They're pick it up and spit it out very quickly due to the oisl on the bird.

Designing the test to put the bird on the island would be a bad idea. First you lose a good test element (re-entry into water) second would be the time lost recovering the bird in the event a dog didn't pick it up. Someone would have to get a boat or a pick up dog.


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

Stacey, my girl had a real aversion to birds initially and it took some time to get her to fetch them up. My trainer was so hesitant to introduce her to pheasants and said we'd do it on a day when we had time to work with her. 
Well, one day he had some pheasants on his truck laying around and Kat just ran right up and snatched one herself. She LOVED it and totally surprised our trainer. 
Your girl already prefers birds so I bet she won't have a bit of issue with the pheasant.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Alaska7133 said:


> Does anyone know if a dog will fail at any level of NAHRA, AKC hunt tests or AKC field trials if they don't sit on the return? I don't want to continue to allow her not to sit on return if she won't be allowed to at a higher level. Lucy hates to sit after she is sent for the first bird, she prefers to stand. If I don't need to correct her for that, then I won't.



No - your dog is not required to sit or stand, but it is required to be steady. IMO train to YOUR standards -- not the tests'. Hopefully your standards will be higher than the tests'. I personally would require the dog to sit. It is a control battle in more ways than one!


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Swampcollie said:


> Designing the test to put the bird on the island would be a bad idea. First you lose a good test element (re-entry into water) second would be the time lost recovering the bird in the event a dog didn't pick it up. Someone would have to get a boat or a pick up dog.



I am confused about this. If the bird is planted on the island due to "running water" or on the shore past the water wouldn't you still have a re-entry into water. Dog has to go thru water, get on the island, pick up bird from the island/opposite shore and get back into the water to deliver? 

Either way the bird taken by current or not picked up for whatever other reason would still involve a boat. If the working station (thrower) was also on the island you will need a boat to replenish the working station. At least that is what it was done at the most recent test we went to.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

It's not really a re-entry, it's an "in and out" mark. They seem to be in favor right now. The dog has to enter the water, get out, cross a bit of land, re-enter the water, find the mark, then return in-and-out like that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9eDJmblleQ









Claudia M said:


> I am confused about this. If the bird is planted on the island due to "running water" or on the shore past the water wouldn't you still have a re-entry into water. Dog has to go thru water, get on the island, pick up bird from the island/opposite shore and get back into the water to deliver?
> 
> Either way the bird taken by current or not picked up for whatever other reason would still involve a boat. If the working station (thrower) was also on the island you will need a boat to replenish the working station. At least that is what it was done at the most recent test we went to.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

How to deal with a sinker:
(at the end you hear me say, "how's that for a Junior Hunter". We were working on our JH then).
EDIT TO ADD...Correction....it has been pointed out to me that we already had our Junior Hunter then. Apologies for the error.









Alaska7133 said:


> What I hate are sinkers, old ducks that float at the water line and don't show up very well. I had a NAHRA test this summer where my dog and I just could not see the duck. It was so bad, the judge couldn't either. So the guy at the gunner station sent his pick up dog to it and had to handle to the bird. Luckily they re-did it for me since it wasn't possible to get that bird without handling.
> 
> We have a lot of moving water here with fast moving streams. My dogs are fearless and are great at letting themselves get swept downstream to cross to the other side. But no experience with pheasants since we don't have them in Alaska. I was thinking about doing a JH at golden national, George you've made me think twice now since Lucy has never seen a pheasant. She has had chukar and quail do you think that's close enough?


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I've been told that the rule of thumb for JH tests is figure it's SH marks, just run as singles instead of a double.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Alaska7133 said:


> But no experience with pheasants since we don't have them in Alaska. I was thinking about doing a JH at golden national, George you've made me think twice now since Lucy has never seen a pheasant. She has had chukar and quail do you think that's close enough?


Flips first time to have a pheasant (or anything other than a duck) was behind the cars at a WC test about an hour before he ran.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

hotel4dogs said:


> How to deal with a sinker:
> (at the end you hear me say, "how's that for a Junior Hunter". We were working on our JH then).
> 
> Tito Duck Diving.MOV - YouTube


We were warned that if we are towards the end of the run on the test weekend, we could get sinkers. Will a beginner dog just dive like that? (Will her owner freak out when she goes under??) Shala _has_ put her head under to get a bumper (and once to try to catch a fish) - she was just about back at shore, dropped it, and stepped on it, so it went under. But she was standing up when this happened - she wasn't treading water. She has never retrieved birds in water - only on land. Hopefully we will practice that before the HRC weekend.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I wouldn't be surprised if Shala dives for birds. I think, with no scientific evidence, that there's a genetic component. I know a couple of Tito pups dive, too. I think that Shala's Mom does, too, if I remember right. 
It's just something they do. I know some people try to teach their dogs to dive, but Tito (and a lot of other dogs) just naturally do it.
And yes, you will FREAK the first time she goes under. I did!
We ran a SH test where his memory bird sank. I turned to the judge and said, "seriously??". She said, "relax, he knows where it is". Sure enough, he did. It apparently was suspended just a little bit under that water.




Sweet Girl said:


> We were warned that if we are towards the end of the run on the test weekend, we could get sinkers. Will a beginner dog just dive like that? (Will her owner freak out when she goes under??) Shala _has_ put her head under to get a bumper (and once to try to catch a fish) - she was just about back at shore, dropped it, and stepped on it, so it went under. But she was standing up when this happened - she wasn't treading water. She has never retrieved birds in water - only on land. Hopefully we will practice that before the HRC weekend.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

hotel4dogs said:


> It's not really a re-entry, it's an "in and out" mark. They seem to be in favor right now. The dog has to enter the water, get out, cross a bit of land, re-enter the water, find the mark, then return in-and-out like that.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9eDJmblleQ
> 
> Tito in out in mark - YouTube


OK, but in your instance there was no running water and the island was relatively low and Tito was able to see the AOF. The handler could also see the AOF and when the dog picked up the bird. Unless the video was taken from a ladder. 

From what I understand from Jodie's comments it was running water and also she could not even see the AOF. In that situation for a JH test either place the bird on the island or across the shore depending on how big the water is.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Good lord.
I was only responding to your comment that you were confused about what is considered a re-entry.

"...I am confused about this. If the bird is planted on the island due to "running water" or on the shore past the water wouldn't you still have a re-entry into water. Dog has to go thru water, get on the island, pick up bird from the island/opposite shore and get back into the water to deliver?..."





Claudia M said:


> OK, but in your instance there was no running water and the island was relatively low and Tito was able to see the AOF. The handler could also see the AOF and when the dog picked up the bird. Unless the video was taken from a ladder.
> 
> From what I understand from Jodie's comments it was running water and also she could not even see the AOF. In that situation for a JH test either place the bird on the island or across the shore depending on how big the water is.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

hotel4dogs said:


> How to deal with a sinker:
> (at the end you hear me say, "how's that for a Junior Hunter". We were working on our JH then).
> 
> Tito Duck Diving.MOV - YouTube


Correct me if I am wrong but according to EE Tito already had the JH in July 2011.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

No, you're right. That's probably actually why I said "how's that for a junior hunter", he already was one. He got it September 26, 2010, I see. Thank you for checking on that and clarifying it for us. Since we started field training the last week of May of 2010 (May 26, 2010) it makes sense it would not have taken him all the way until summer of 2011 to get it. It was pretty dumb of me to imply it took him over 14 months to train for and get his JH, rather than the 4 months it actually took. Obviously I didn't give it any serious thought.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

No problem Barb, I was trying to clarify for any newcomers to this game that Tito was already a JH and working towards his SH in both videos. 
I would hate for someone to see a dog that works towards SH and therefore should train at MH levels and get completely discouraged and out of the game. I was going by your statement "We were working on our JH then".


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Barb , I love that video of diving for the duck. 
I don't think that instinct is taught. 
That there is just a good old fashion hunt'in dawg!


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

hotel4dogs said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if Shala dives for birds. I think, with no scientific evidence, that there's a genetic component. I know a couple of Tito pups dive, too. I think that Shala's Mom does, too, if I remember right.
> It's just something they do. I know some people try to teach their dogs to dive, but Tito (and a lot of other dogs) just naturally do it.
> And yes, you will FREAK the first time she goes under. I did!
> We ran a SH test where his memory bird sank. I turned to the judge and said, "seriously??". She said, "relax, he knows where it is". Sure enough, he did. It apparently was suspended just a little bit under that water.


It will definitely freak me out if Shala goes under. Someone may need to hold me back from diving in after her! Hopefully they will only sink to just under the surface if they sink at all. I'm impressed Tito remembered a sunken memory bird!! Wow! We haven't started doubles yet; it really amazes me that dogs remember where multiple birds are at all. I can't wait til we start learning to do that, too. But first things first!


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Sweet Girl said:


> It will definitely freak me out if Shala goes under. Someone may need to hold me back from diving in after her! Hopefully they will only sink to just under the surface if they sink at all. I'm impressed Tito remembered a sunken memory bird!! Wow! We haven't started doubles yet; it really amazes me that dogs remember where multiple birds are at all. I can't wait til we start learning to do that, too. But first things first!


Sounds like you have been seriously bitten by the field bug. 
Just wait, the amazement is just starting.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

hollyk said:


> Sounds like you have been seriously bitten by the field bug.
> Just wait, the amazement is just starting.


Definitely bitten! And never in a million years thought I would be. I wish we could do more. I'm on vacation right now, and we've been training 2-3 a week with our trainer, which has been so great. When I go back to work, we'll be back to doing just once a week. I live right downtown, so even finding space to train ourselves is near impossible. I think I need to quit my job and move!


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

I live in the city too. I spend most of my days off driving so I can go "dog'in it" as my non retriever friends say.
At one point I realized that only new clothes I had brought in well over a year was stuff to train in. Muck boots, a good pair of hiking boots, really rain proof coat, camo for HRC. 
I'm now thinking about taking the back seat out of my SUV and having a box build to hold all the field stuff. :--appalled:


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

hollyk said:


> I live in the city too. I spend most of my days off driving so I can go "dog'in it" as my non retriever friends say.
> At one point I realized that only new clothes I had brought in well over a year was stuff to train in. Muck boots, a good pair of hiking boots, really rain proof coat, camo for HRC.
> *I'm now thinking about taking the back seat out of my SUV and having a box build to hold all the field stuff.* :--appalled:


Um, I am getting ready to shell out for a brand new SUV. Only because of field training. :uhoh: Am I crazy? I feel like I am a bit nuts, and I am worried about such a huge expense so early on (when I don't know if I'm going to love it in a year). But I have a Honda Civic right now, which is SO not conducive to this. I need a place for Shala to rest and stay while she's not being run. I ordered the crate last night and have been researching SUVs. I also bought my first camo shirt yesterday! 

My friends are like, who are you - and what did you do with the city girl we've known forever??


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

I drove a Prius when I first started. The second time out, I drove straight into the mud and had to be pulled out. I had only ever driven on concrete; how was I supposed to know to avoid that big wet brown spot? Lol. Driving on grass and dirt was foreign to me. I got a vehicle with AWD just for field training. The reasoning I gave my family was that the Prius was slipping a lot in the Seattle rain instead of the truth that I wanted to go dog training in the winter. They wouldn't have understood lol.

I almost feel like I have two lives. My old pre-dog life that all my friends know, and my post-dog life that I don't really share with my non-dog friends because they wouldn't understand.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

love this!



Vhuynh2 said:


> I almost feel like I have two lives. My old pre-dog life that all my friends know, and my post-dog life that I don't really share with my non-dog friends.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Guys, my first car was a 1967 Chevy Nova station wagon with a V8. I loved that freakin thing. Then got a cute new little Honda Civic that I absolutely love. Now I drive the short bus :










And I LIKE it  No wait -- LOVE it 
Stylin......


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

That's one great thing about this forum; there are not many people that I can tell that I turned our 98 4Runner into the Dog's car. That car does not go anywhere without the dogs. Their cage is built for the car, all the equipment is there and extra clothes in case I have to take a swim with them. Food and water cooler as well as cooler for the birds.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Hey I love my leather seats in my Honda Pilot, it's easier to get the duck blood and mud off than upholstery. My DH cringes what I do with the Pilot, but it's mine, so I can do what I want. I can put 2 @ 400 crates in the back with the 3rd seat down. With the rear seat down, I can put in my sled with all my ducks, blind, chairs, gun, towels, water container, etc. It's wonderful. The old dog sits in the front seat with me. But there's no room for DH, so I'm not sure what to do about that yet. And my pilot pulls my trailer with my raft for real adventures.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

I had to explain to my mom that she needed to rent a car when she visits me because I had the back seats removed to maximize cargo space. I think it is funny that I got a bigger car (a Honda CRV so not quite an SUV but way bigger than the Prius) but can seat less people, but more dog things lol.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Ever since Jodie posted about her experience I have been looking for places around here where we could train in moving/running water. I would have never thought of that. 

I hope more people would post their experiences good or bad. 

One thing that I learned by reading other people's experiences is that if your dog is called and that dog picks a duck that was not the thrown duck but one from either a previous test that day or from a couple days before the test, you can ask the judge to let your dog run again and the most important thing it to run again 3 to 4 dogs later. Give a break to the dogs and do not re-run immediately.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

At our first hunt test the judges decided to reset the test after 8 or so dogs had run. Most of the dogs were failing. While deciding to reset, there was some concern about handlers/dogs possibly having already left for home. So, stick around and don't leave right away.


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Sweet Girl said:


> Um, I am getting ready to shell out for a brand new SUV. Only because of field training. :uhoh: Am I crazy? I feel like I am a bit nuts, and I am worried about such a huge expense so early on (when I don't know if I'm going to love it in a year). But I have a Honda Civic right now, which is SO not conducive to this. I need a place for Shala to rest and stay while she's not being run. I ordered the crate last night and have been researching SUVs. I also bought my first camo shirt yesterday!
> 
> My friends are like, who are you - and what did you do with the city girl we've known forever??


Welcome to retriever training, more addictive than crack.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

I've had two Honda CR-Vs, both of which I removed the back seats to better accommodate crates. You're right -- SUV that seats ONE guest!

I remember my first Junior test ever with Fisher -- we thought it was a real bloodbath and that only "pros with dogs ready for Senior" passed. Well OK, not really, but it was challenging and my dog wasn't ready. Since then I have run many a junior and senior test that the newer competitors thought it was terrible, too hard, unfair, etc, but I didn't think anything of it since by then I had the experience to understand the test.
The last junior dog I ran was my mother's dog, who with 3 months of training earned his JH in 4 straight tests two weekends in a row (he went from never having seen a bumper to force fetch to JH in 3 months). His 3rd test he was the 7th dog to run. ALL SIX of the dogs running prior to him FAILED THE LAND SERIES. It didn't look like anything out of the ordinary to me. Harvin stepped up and pinned both marks, including his flyer that had it's whole belly shot out. No problem. The next TWO DOGS failed. The judges knew their test was fair and reasonable, and sure enough, from then on out every dog passed without trouble. So only one out of the first nine dogs passed the land, and all of the junior people were begging to have the test scrapped. The judges knew it was not their setup that was causing the trouble, it was untrained, too inexperienced dogs. Which is typically the biggest problem in junior


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Vhuynh2 said:


> At our first hunt test the judges decided to reset the test after 8 or so dogs had run. Most of the dogs were failing. While deciding to reset, there was some concern about handlers/dogs possibly having already left for home. So, stick around and don't leave right away.


You are so right! I was in a derby in June. We failed on the first series. Lucy couldn't find her second bird, she over ran it and couldn't find it. Anyway I was loading up to go home, when someone ran up and told me that all 5 of the first dogs had the same problem. So the judges were re-running the first series. Had I left, I wouldn't have gotten to re-run the first series. So yes stick around. 

I think everyone should stick around anyway to watch other dog/handler teams. You can learn so much from watching other people. Grab a chair, sit in the gallery and learn. Also if you can, have someone film you and your dog. You can watch it later to see what you did wrong/right.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

I do think get out and run a test whether you and the dog are ready or not. Nothing can prepare you like a real test can. If you don't know what to expect and you are new at it, you will not be able to train your dog unless you actually try a test out. What the heck, all you've lost are your time for the day and $40 or so. That's my theory. Yes we passed our first 2 AKC JH tests we entered. But we've failed several NAHRA tests prior. Running the NAHRA hunter tests have help me prepare for the JH runs because the JH runs are easier. I'm a big fan of running NAHRA hunter tests. It's the inbetween of JH and SH. Doubles on land, doubles on water, and a trailing test and no touching the dog and a bare neck on the dog.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

In our experience, the junior judges have ALL been very helpful, kind, patient, and truly wanted every dog to pass.
Someone said, and I loved this, "The judges didn't fail the dogs that failed. The dogs failed themselves."
If you have a question (at any level, but especially junior), SPEAK UP. Don't be afraid to tell the judges you're new to the game. Don't feel silly asking a question. 
Hunt test judges do not get paid. They volunteer their time. So these are people who are there because they love the game, they love watching the dogs work, and they want you to succeed.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

Vhuynh2 said:


> I drove a Prius when I first started. The second time out, I drove straight into the mud and had to be pulled out. I had only ever driven on concrete; how was I supposed to know to avoid that big wet brown spot? Lol. Driving on grass and dirt was foreign to me. I got a vehicle with AWD just for field training. The reasoning I gave my family was that the Prius was slipping a lot in the Seattle rain instead of the truth that I wanted to go dog training in the winter. They wouldn't have understood lol.
> 
> *I almost feel like I have two lives. My old pre-dog life that all my friends know, and my post-dog life that I don't really share with my non-dog friends because they wouldn't understand*.


This is totally me now!! Except, truth be told, I am telling EVERYONE about field training. Most people have no clue what I am talking about. It's hard to explain to people who don't know what Golden Retrievers were bred to do. 

I'm so glad I'm not the only one who had a totally useless car for training when they started! My crate arrived today - so I now I definitely need to buy the SUV!




hotel4dogs said:


> In our experience, the junior judges have ALL been very helpful, kind, patient, and truly wanted every dog to pass.
> Someone said, and I loved this, "The judges didn't fail the dogs that failed. The dogs failed themselves."
> If you have a question (at any level, but especially junior), SPEAK UP. Don't be afraid to tell the judges you're new to the game. Don't feel silly asking a question.
> Hunt test judges do not get paid. They volunteer their time. So these are people who are there because they love the game, they love watching the dogs work, and they want you to succeed.


This is what I am being told, too. And especially of the people/judges at the HRC. It sounds like a good venue to run a dog for the first time. I'm also very glad to be going with members of my training group and my trainer. I don't want to pass if we don't deserve to pass, but it does sound like they will be happy to help newbies to get the most out of it. 

I will be more than happy to post our first experience - it's not a JH - but it will be our first test experience. I am really looking forward to it.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

It's not a JH, but it IS HRC Started, which often is quite comparable!


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Can anybody give a quick run down of the various HRC titles and requirements? I don't have HRC in my area. Thanks


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

Here's a link.

http://www.huntingretrieverclub.org/PDF/2013HRRulebook.pdf


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## hollyk (Feb 21, 2009)

This explains the differences between AKC, HRC, CKC and NAHRA.

GRCA-Hunt Test Comparison Charts


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

NAHRA information misses the Hunter level. Double on water, double on land, trailing test 50 yards with one 90 degree turn. No collar. 75 yards. Can walk to line with leash, then remove. No blind. It's a very nice in between level.


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

I'm laughing at this whole comments page! I just bought a SUV this week so I can finally fit my dogs and my kids in it!! LOL! I'm glad I'm not the only one 

As far as the HRC, I think the test difficulty is based on the club hosting it. The very first tests I ran were HRC and the water was the HARDEST I've seen yet. People were griping about how far the marks were (they landed with the maximum distance and then the current took them out further) and didn't believe that they were fair. Both of the marks were at an angle entry (at the time I had no idea what that meant) and the first one was so far out and in the shade of the trees that we couldn't see the bird. Thank God Kat liked water because once she got there it had floated off even further and she hunted forever. I was thinking I'd have to call her in soon so she didn't get exhaustion. The land was comparable to the my AKC club's tests and those are fair, cover and hills. This HRC club down the street from me has fairly simple tests for started and I like them, they are straight forward and seem to really be for the young dog. BUT they went the cheap route of killing their birds and the birds were magically coming to life once they were launched but they had no live fire to shoot them so the birds were literally flying away, lol. It was a madhouse. So I suppose every test has some kind of difficulty. LOL. I think the HRC tests are hard because of the gun handling. I have never held a gun before I did all this so for me, though I'd passed started, when my daughter was running a test, I went ahead and did another started (cause I knew I had no pressure) just so I could handle the gun and sit on the bucket. I wanted to make sure I wouldn't freeze and do all the safety right. 

So I think both tests are easier and harder than each other in their own ways. But I do think HRC is way funner, I love the buckets of water on the head for titling or if you title on water you have to swim after your dog. (luckily I titled on land ) and everyone has to wear cammo and so forth. Its just more laid back. I always meet hunters that don't play the test game but just figured they trained their dogs to hunt and want to see if they can pass them. Around here, the AKC stuff has a lot of the same HRC people but HRC reigns supreme, they have tons more of those tests close to me. This is duck hunting country around here after all.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

HRC Started is easier and less technical than the AKC Junior Test. 

The comparison chart on the GRCA site is inaccurate. The chart says that AKC distances for marks is 100 yards Maxium. That is incorrect. The AKC regs state that distances shouldn't normally exceed 100 yards. In many instances the marks DO exceed 100 yards and often by a great deal in Master Tests.

If the Flyer station is set at 100 yards, the actual length of a mark could be as far as 140 or 150 yards if the bird sails on them after it is hit. (And yes the dog would be expected in most cases to complete the retrieve if that happened.) That type of scenario often happens in an AKC test, but would never happen in an HRC Started Test. HRC sets maximum limits by rule in black and white, the AKC does not. The AKC Test wil use live flyers for Junior, HRC never uses a live flyer for Started dogs.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

NAHRA started is shorter too. NAHRA hunter is my favorite level with doubles. They set up the started and hunter in the same field using the same gunner stations. They just don't use the middle one with Hunter since it's a double. Started is 3 singles on land. Same with water, one set up for both levels, one does doubles one does singles. Makes it easy for someone to get a little more experience.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Here's a Junior Test from 2007.


Our first mark was a short 36 yarder. The running line was located on the left side of a small mound that was tall enough to conceal the popper gunner seated on the right side of the mound. The test started with the popper gun blowing a duck call. The hidden bird thrower would answer with another duck call, then hand throw the bird and the popper gunner would fire when the bird was at the high point of the throw. If the dog took a direct path to the fall, it would have to angle up and over the corner of the mound, scoot through the decoys and pick out the bird from a lot of loose brush trimmings laying on the ground in the area of fall.















Our second mark was a flier that originated in a blind 65 yards from the line. The throw was angled back so the mark was about 75 yards for most dogs. The dogs had to navigate through the decoys, through a 6" deep puddle, past a large brush pile, into some undulating cover that ranged from 12 to 20 inches deep. 












Our third mark was about 55 yards long with several transitions and factors to deal with along the way. The dogs started in a boat on shore, they had to get out of the boat and into the water (very deep with steep banks) and swim through the decoys, past an island, exit the water, cross a point, re-enter the water and swim to the next point, exit the water and find the bird in 18"deep cover. (The fall was about 4 yards from the waters' edge.)














The last mark was a flier that originated in the same flier station used in the first series. The mark was about 55 yards long and was a bit variable as most fliers are. In most cases the bird fell near the end of the point and drifted around a bit as the wind pushed it. The dogs again ran from the boat. They had to exit the boat and get into the water, navigate through the decoys and chase down the bird as it floated past the point and around the corner.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

How often are boats used? I will definitely need to get Molly used to getting in and out of one.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Running marks from a boat with a dog with any sort of speed is a great way to have dog and handler wipe out and take out the dog's knees on the side of the boat as well. No thank you. I have had to honor with the dog in the boat, in Senior no less. It made a ridiculous amount of noise getting the honor dog out of the boat, which was very distracting to the working dog. I'd rather see a mat on the line or a platform.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Vhuynh2 said:


> How often are boats used? I will definitely need to get Molly used to getting in and out of one.


It will depend upon what part of the country you're in. Up here in the north boats are common. In the south where flooded timber hunts are common, you'll often see the dog asked to run from a platform.


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Swampcollie

The land series is like something we would set up.

The water series, no. We don't like to give an angle entry for a JH dog because it may very likely not be up to that in its training. I would hate to set up a test where a JH dog learns to run the bank because the handler can't correct it. We try to give as much of a square entry as possible.Test is OK IMO if there is some sort of barrier, natural or man made, that helps prevent running the bank. However I understand that the angle entry is not uncommon in other parts of the country.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

We have worked around a boat but never from a boat. I assume the dog would also have to climb back in and deliver in the boat!?


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

The boat can mess up anyone who has never run their dog out of a boat.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Molly is not the most courageous dog. I have tried getting her into a boat. When she finally got in, the rocking scared her and she got out 10 times faster than she got in. She hasn't wanted to go back in since then.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Vhuynh2 said:


> Molly is not the most courageous dog. I have tried getting her into a boat. When she finally got in, the rocking scared her and she got out 10 times faster than she got in. She hasn't wanted to go back in since then.


Have you tried small steps? On land first and then on water? More than likely I would introduce the girls to it that way. So far we have just used the upside-down boat as the starting line and to put the ducks on. So far so good, they have climbed on it and sat on the upside down boat. 
More than likely I will have to have a swimsuit on for the first time in the boat.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

Claudia M said:


> Have you tried small steps? On land first and then on water? More than likely I would introduce the girls to it that way. So far we have just used the upside-down boat as the starting line and to put the ducks on. So far so good, they have climbed on it and sat on the upside down boat.
> 
> More than likely I will have to have a swimsuit on for the first time in the boat.



It was on land, but it rocked when she got in. I will probably try using treats next time.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

If she is jealous of you working with another dog use it! Have someone hold her while you throw the duck in the boat for another dog. She will want to be that dog so bad she will forget about the rocking boat.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Any time I have run my dogs from a boat they have no problem getting in or out but the bottom of the boat is very slippery and they bust their knees against the boat or slip trying to leave for a mark. That can't be good. I've tried putting a bathmat or something but that didn't work either. I'm not sure why a HT judge would choose to put people through this and waste the time and risk an injury.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

I think one can look at any part of the field training and say it can cause a hazard to the dog. cold tail, sticks, jumping on logs, catching in brushes and tearing paws, hot posts, ticks, snakes, forgetting the ducks and chasing after unknown vermin in the woods etc.......
I doubt we will ever take any of the girls hunting from a boat, as a matter of fact I doubt my husband will ever hunt near water, period. It is still an experience that increases confidence, agility and aptitude.


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## Vhuynh2 (Feb 13, 2012)

I just checked the results for the hunt test here last weekend. 74% of Junior A passed and Junior B only had 37% pass. What a huge difference.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

In this past JH test we had a 68% passing rate. 6 failed, one scratch and 15 passes. 

In a way I am glad we played in cold water. Had to deal with Rose's upper respiratory issue for a couple weeks and almost thought about scratching her from the test. 

The land was nice, used the same area one of the Masters were held the day before. We did not have much problems there.

Importance of getting there ahead of time and air your dog is probably not emphasized enough. This one lab ran to his first mark, started smelling the yard and went poo poo. By the time he was done completely forgot the mark. 

There was at least one refusal from the dog to enter the water. After both girls passed I was on Cloud 9 and missed the rest of the water entries. It was in flooded timber with mud, logs sticking out and the dogs had to run and also swim thru it to get to the bird. At 9am it was probably around 21/23 degrees outside. 

The one lab in front of us refuse to give up the bird, started munching on it. There were couple who were DQed for touching the dog as taking the bird. 

We trained before in grass, dry grass, mud etc but never did I think to train with fresh hay spread at your feet in the holding blind and at the line. I was worried that Rose's nose will get the best of her again and sniff and sniff the hay but once at the line and the word Mark was spoken she was all eyes and ears on the mark. Darcy sniffed it as well but in her case it actually helped keep her preoccupied in the blind. 

The water was interesting, first mark was mostly running thru the mud and tree trunks sticking out. Rose ran past a couple of them, stopped at one to check it and then went and got the bird. Second water was again mud running, then swim but she got on a little island, checked it out and then got back in the water and got the duck. There was smell of dogs and ducks on the island from previous dogs and one Master and Senior ran the day before. I decided to take the risk and ask for delivery at a heel as opposed to as soon as they get back. 

Darcy same way on the first water mark. Same darn trunk she had to check. But then the second mark she goes, gets the bird but makes a stop on the little island, puts the duck down, shakes, picks it up and comes back, three feet in front of me she drops the bird in the water and checks this other tree trunk sticking out to her left. I could feel the judges eyes on me quite heavily at that time. Luckily she quickly determined it was not a bird and got her bird and brought it back. I did not wait for her to come to a heel this time. I wanted that duck in the judge's hand and me OUT of there. As I put the leash back on Darcy and the lady judge said "very nice" I knew both girls passed. As soon as I passed the holding blinds and wished good luck to the people in the holding blind I could finally breathe. Seeing two dogs fail right in front of me made me hold my breath quite often.


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