# Random question for breeders....



## Oceanside (Mar 29, 2021)

Bumping up


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Because I don't do co-owns, I also don't sell many show puppies... if I can't be a guide and trust the buyer, I would rather sell puppies to pet homes, instead of let my kennel name slip into a less than stellar place. Not saying it would always happen, but it might and might's too much for me having spent 40 years building it. 
That said, I do have a 'change of registration' in my contract and absolutely I will do that- I have done it ten-ish times, after a buyer gets whatever clearances they're eligible for when they have caught the bug, and will commit to finishing those at appropriate times, and actually titling the dog (RN, trick, dock , rat- those don't count for me). 
The people I do mentor, though- I help them w judges and show site quirks, handlers, trainers and grooming, etc just like your mentors did you.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Prism Goldens said:


> The people I do mentor, though- I help them w judges and show site quirks, handlers, trainers and grooming, etc just like your mentors did you.


I know you do, Robin.

I think a smidge where my brain is going and why I posted this at all is because I think if people buy a show puppy - they should expect some degree of help from their breeders and their breeders should be the ones they go to first for help or questions. People should know to ask questions?


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## GoldenDude (Nov 5, 2016)

Megora said:


> I know you do, Robin.
> 
> I think a smidge where my brain is going and why I posted this at all is because I think if people buy a show puppy - they should expect some degree of help from their breeders and their breeders should be the ones they go to first for help or questions. People should know to ask questions?


My breeder was very helpful and I went to her with questions. However, this wasn’t one of my Goldens. It was my Clumber. My Clumber had a sister who went to a breeder that also shows her Clumbers. I also consulted with that breeder. Lastly, my breeder had a co-breeder who passed before the litter whelped. Her daughter is a handler and a breeder of a different breed. I also went to her because of her personal connection to her mom’s last litter. I was truly blessed to have these 3 terrific ladies guide me.

I will be forever grateful to these ladies and fiercely protective of them.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

I don’t think this post is mean spirited at all. I don’t know the answer to all of your questions, but if these folks are buying from good breeders and showing up with no clue… I feel like a good chunk of that is on the breeders. Since I’m not too far removed from being brand spanking new to showing, I can honestly say that “you don’t know what you don’t know.”

You have no idea how much crap you need to buy to start showing.
You have no idea what type of collar and lead to buy, and if you have a bit of an idea, you don’t know where to get them.
You probably also don’t know that there’s a correct way to put a chain collar on a dog
You definitely know nothing about ring etiquette and actual procedure in a normal show. Watching Westminster does about zilch to help you.
you don’t know how to hand stack, free stack, or gait
Tips and tricks for grooming? Forget about it
I got lucky to make friends that have been showing for years and basically adopted me into their group. These wonderful people taught me how to groom, how to set up for a show, how to dress, and basically all the things. They got me started in classes where I learned ring procedure, how to set up my dog, how a slight difference in how you stand can change how your dog free stacks, how to gait, etc. These same friends also give outstanding feedback, both positive and negative, that has helped tremendously. 

But even after all of that, it takes some time to be able to execute what you’ve been taught. I still love to watch videos of Eevee’s first puppy show and first real show because they are funny to me now. I knew in my head the right things to do, but it hadn’t become old hat yet and I had almost zero confidence in my abilities.

My breeder lives like 700 miles from me, so it would have been hard for her to teach me all of this. However, if we had been closer, I have no doubt that she would have gone above and beyond.

Blame typically lays on both sides of most things in life, but when you don’t even know what questions to ask, someone needs to step in and help you. If you bought a show prospect and you’ve never shown a dog before, that person typically should be your breeder. Or your breeder should be able to put you in contact with someone that will help you.

As for the recommending a handler thing, I think most breeders recommend the handler(s) that they use.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

GoldenDude said:


> My breeder was very helpful and I went to her with questions. However, this wasn’t one of my Goldens. It was my Clumber.


BTW - I thought of you this weekend. My grooming set up was across the "aisle" (open grassy space between, I guess would be another definition) from a breeder with clumbers, including a very cute puppy.


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## Tagrenine (Aug 20, 2019)

I think I’ve been quite lucky. Felix’s breeders have always gone out of their way to help us. They might not have been able to answer all of my super detailed/specific questions, but always pointed me in the right direction.

Eveline’s breeder is much more involved with handling her own dogs and pretty much coaches me from the sidelines or while we’re in the ring. It’s a much easier breed and I find I’m getting a ton of ring experience (I even got to compete in my first group 😭).

But I also think sometimes approaching breeders for help can feel intimidating.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

ArkansasGold said:


> You have no idea how much crap you need to buy to start showing.


This actually has more meaning than one to me... 

I think some people are trying so hard to buy the right things when they are starting off - and they keep adding more this's and that's until the owner has like a big pantry full of dog supplies, much of wish they don't even know what to use it for or why they got it, other than somebody raved about it on FB.... 

But 3-5 years later, the things they use regularly when showing are really just a few things. I believe everyone has a list of 10 things which they primarily use. And they literally have all these bottles and creams and shears and brushes which they never use, but they bought in a frenzy early on. 

I actually jotted down a list of 10 things and I found that after listing 6 things, I was already getting into things that I use regularly, but probably not as passionately or neurotically as the top 6?

As example - my Con Air 6" shears that I bought way back in 2010? I still use these all the time. They are still sharp, never sharpened! When my sister is helping me trim whiskers, she and I fight over these shears because I'm usually cleaning up bottoms of feet and she's using to snip whiskers. I have other "grunt work" shears, but they don't have the same feel in your hand. 

Flip side of that is the show gear 4.5" curved shears. Discovered them last year and basically have bought like TEN of them just in case they vanish from Amazon and are no longer available. ! I love those shears so much. I don't know how to trim golden retriever feet without them anymore. 

These are really cheap shears, but I like them so much more than their $100+ equivalents which I also have......

Listening to other people talk about their wish lists and they are putting some seriously big items on those lists and I don't really understand why you'd need to spend that kind of money. Especially if you just have 1 dog you are showing. Things like buying a K9III dryer or the fancy grooming tables....! Literally the only time I vaguely wanted a K9 dryer is when I'm blow drying around my dogs heads and trying to get the ears dry. When I bathe and dry at shows, I avoid getting the heads wet because I struggle to get the ears completely dry with just the kool dry blowing cool air on them. >.<


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Megora said:


> I know you do, Robin.
> 
> I think a smidge where my brain is going and why I posted this at all is because I think if people buy a show puppy - they should expect some degree of help from their breeders and their breeders should be the ones they go to first for help or questions. People should know to ask questions?


Absolutely. If for no other reason then that it reflects on the breeder of the animal, right? But I would hope first question (even if one didn't know the question) would be to the breeder, who should be able to anticipate other questions or things and fill in info around it.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Megora said:


> This actually has more meaning than one to me...
> 
> I think some people are trying so hard to buy the right things when they are starting off - and they keep adding more this's and that's until the owner has like a big pantry full of dog supplies, much of wish they don't even know what to use it for or why they got it, other than somebody raved about it on FB....
> 
> ...


I’m one of those buy it when you need it people. I have three pairs of shears and a small tack box that only fits so much stuff. My main thing that I wasted money on in the beginning was shampoo. 

I agree with the last paragraph though. You don’t need a K9-III for one dog or really even two dogs. You don’t need a $500 grooming table or 7 pairs of $200 shears either. I’m still rolling with my $135 grooming table that I bought before I even start showing.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Back to your original post, the one dog that didn’t look to be show quality, do you mean that it doesn’t look like it came from show lines? Or that it probably wasn’t a show pick, but this person wanted to show anyway? Because if it’s the latter, that’s also on the breeder. I wouldn’t let someone show a puppy that really shouldn’t be shown, no matter how much they want to. 1) because it would make me look bad as the breeder and 2) because Goldens are flipping hard to win with anyway, and showing a dog with a glaring movement flaw is only going to make it harder.


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## Emmdenn (Jun 5, 2018)

ArkansasGold said:


> Back to your original post, the one dog that didn’t look to be show quality, do you mean that it doesn’t look like it came from show lines? Or that it probably wasn’t a show pick, but this person wanted to show anyway? Because if it’s the latter, that’s also on the breeder. I wouldn’t let someone show a puppy that really shouldn’t be shown, no matter how much they want to. 1) because it would make me look bad as the breeder and 2) because Goldens are flipping hard to win with anyway, and showing a dog with a glaring movement flaw is only going to make it harder.


I think some breeders _think_ they are placing show pick puppies but they really don't have the eye to determine that. Haven't been breeding long enough with the right guidance or quality dogs, or are one of these breeders (I can think of a few) that sell "show picks" to anyone who wants to pay. Could be the case here.


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## Emmdenn (Jun 5, 2018)

I'll weigh in here. My first dog was/is not a show pick, he was sold to me as a pet and I have 0 relationship with that breeder and had no help or guidance when I wanted to get involved. We're talking literally refusal to help when asked.... Through training him with a local golden breeder (not my breeder but a most ob/agility breeder in my area) learned SO much about the breed in general, training, showing ob/rally/agility and that's what sparked my interest in conformation showing which led to being offered a puppy and mentorship from a different breeder who happened to be about 4 hours away from me.

So while I got SO much support, a lot of my hands-on learning and training was from my trainers and me literally going out of my way at dog shows when I had questions and making friends with folks at handling classes and just generally being very proactive to learn and really get it down.

At the Eastern Regional @HaliaGoldens and I helped out a really nice family with a young male they were showing. Literally just showed up with the dog to go in the ring, totally untrimmed but a nicely kept boy. They actually found us and asked for help and within all of 60 seconds the dog was up on our table and we were teaching them how to tidy feet and ears and trim tail. They were THE nicest and most gracious people and I truly think we just need more of that in the breed in general. Folks not being afraid to ask for help but also being kind and friendly and open to help.

Some young eager people I think want to buy a show quality dog and just blaze forward without taking the time to learn, or just buy the first full reg dog they can and try to make it work. Either way, showing is hard, there is SO much to learn and probably breeders or show people should be a litttttttle more open to mentoring or even just teaching new people and new people need to understand the value of having good mentors and teachers.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Emmdenn said:


> I think some breeders _think_ they are placing show pick puppies but they really don't have the eye to determine that. Haven't been breeding long enough with the right guidance or quality dogs, or are one of these breeders (I can think of a few) that sell "show picks" to anyone who wants to pay. Could be the case here.


That’s a good point. But if you haven’t been breeding long, you _should _be having someone experienced evaluate your litter. Even most experienced people should have another set of eyes evaluating the litter or they risk losing objectivity.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Emmdenn said:


> At the Eastern Regional @HaliaGoldens and I helped out a really nice family with a young male they were showing. Literally just showed up with the dog to go in the ring, totally untrimmed but a nicely kept boy. They actually found us and asked for help and within all of 60 seconds the dog was up on our table and we were teaching them how to tidy feet and ears and trim tail. They were THE nicest and most gracious people and I truly think we just need more of that in the breed in general. Folks not being afraid to ask for help but also being kind and friendly and open to help.


This put a huge smile on my face to see - thank you for helping those people<B


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## Emmdenn (Jun 5, 2018)

I think who you're thinking the dog comes from would fall into the category of breeders who think they're placing show picks but really are not, and probably who just sell full reg but aren't involved.

I hope that girl finds someone to help guide her though or someone suggests she joins a local club or does drop in handling classes with local folks to get the swing of things. I also heard recently maybe the daughter is starting her own kennel separately from her mother but with the same dogs. Wonder if it could have been her.

The people we helped out were SO thankful and could not stop complimenting us on how nice we were and how great of a time they were having at the regional. I wish everyone's first experience was as positive as theirs!!


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Emmdenn said:


> I'll weigh in here. My first dog was/is not a show pick, he was sold to me as a pet and I have 0 relationship with that breeder and had no help or guidance when I wanted to get involved. We're talking literally refusal to help when asked.... Through training him with a local golden breeder (not my breeder but a most ob/agility breeder in my area) learned SO much about the breed in general, training, showing ob/rally/agility and that's what sparked my interest in conformation showing which led to being offered a puppy and mentorship from a different breeder who happened to be about 4 hours away from me.
> 
> So while I got SO much support, a lot of my hands-on learning and training was from my trainers and me literally going out of my way at dog shows when I had questions and making friends with folks at handling classes and just generally being very proactive to learn and really get it down.
> 
> ...


Those people, they were so nice and so clueless! I wish I could have helped too- but I did speak with them for a few minutes and sent them your way!


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

ArkansasGold said:


> That’s a good point. But if you haven’t been breeding long, you _should _be having someone experienced evaluate your litter. Even most experienced people should have another set of eyes evaluating the litter or they risk losing objectivity.


I always have a couple other breeders look @ my litters. It's just reasonable to do so. And not put FB pics up, but actually go over them.


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## ArkansasGold (Dec 7, 2017)

Prism Goldens said:


> I always have a couple other breeders look @ my litters. It's just reasonable to do so. And not put FB pics up, but actually go over them.


The Facebook photos and feedback of wiggly stacked puppies drives me bonkers!


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## Emmdenn (Jun 5, 2018)

I like seeing the puppy photos on Facebook -- but are they realllllly a true representation of structure? Probably not. I'm attending a puppy evaluation "party" this weekend, 3 breeders myself and another co-owner. I have been to 3 of them now and you learn so much more seeing them move, getting your hands on them and watching experienced people stack and go over them than you do on Facebook with people just tossing puppy colors out there for who their picks would be.


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## JerseyChris (10 mo ago)

Emmdenn said:


> I'm attending a puppy evaluation "party" this weekend, 3 breeders myself and another co-owner. I have been to 3 of them now and you learn so much more seeing them move, getting your hands on them and watching experienced people stack and go over them than you do on Facebook with people just tossing puppy colors out there for who their picks would be.


When we brought home our current boy our breeder was having a Puppy party as well. Being this was our first Golden and we had no idea what we were doing the breeder wanted to have some of the local breeders all get together to pick our dog for us. If I recall we had 4-5 males to choose from so we let them do their thing and they handed us their pick and off we went.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Back in 1992 my parents bought me my first golden. I was 13. He was $550 with full registration. His breeder is still active, I still live an hour or so from her and see her at local events. I don't know if it was common practice back then to use limited registration, or to be as hands-on as a breeder, but while she was very nice and sold us a good dog, it was a bit like, here ya go, have a nice life. We knew enough to take him to obedience class and the rest is history. 
I wouldn't have even thought to consult his breeder on how to show. I really didn't think about that at all. I read every book on the topic of dog shows (pre-internet) and had a VHS tape of the 1989 Westminster groups that I watched ad nauseum. I practiced with my own dog WAY too much, and taught him all the bad habits new people teach their first show dog...how to post, how to pace, etc. Very frustrating. Of course you don't know any better. 
My parents drove me to our shows and the wagon tailgate was my grooming table. I didn't realize that dogs got a bath & blow dry at the show, I thought that was crazy. I wore skorts. 

Bottom line...everyone has to start somewhere, you have to be self motivated to achieve anything in this sport, since no one else is going to do it for you, and everyone has their own learning curve. We all were that new person at one point in time.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

K9-Design said:


> I wore skorts.


I saw a post on FB recently had you had so many chicks posting they either wear khakis or skorts in summer for hot shows.

My private thought on that is they either show UKC or they show those other breeds that require no running.... unlike goldens. 

One question I have for you.... as you took him to obedience classes. I think you started about the same time I did - maybe 5 years earlier than me, so kinda assuming your experience was the same as mine for puppy classes? When you did those puppy classes, did they include grooming on a grooming table as part of the classes? And teaching you how to stack your dog, in addition to foundations for training attention, stays, recalls, etc.... and strongly encouraging you to show your dog in puppy classes before showing in obedience????? And it was assumed that if you did more than one round of obedience, you were planning to get a CD on your dog.

This was our experience! Completely different than puppy classes people do today!

I love the training clubs I train at - but the puppy classes are such a huge waste of time. And they cost so much!!!!

Re books - will never forget the competition basics class I did with Jacks when he was a pup. My instructor (big OTCH trainer at the time) gave all of us a huge list of books to read in addition to taking her classes... 

Oh and parents - I chuckled when I saw that. My parents drove my oldest sister to her first obedience trial. Back then obedience trials were as packed as conformation shows are sometimes and I remember how aggravated they got with not having any place to stand or sit and my sister was a completely nervous wreck. When it was all done and my sister asked if they could drive her to the next trial, my parents were literally.... "You mean you have to do it all again????' 🤣 I had it easier because my oldest sister drove me everywhere I needed for dog training and trials.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

I started Tucker at 12 weeks old at a basic obedience class. There was no puppy class. It was an 8 week course and at the end of the 8 weeks "graduation" was a pre-novice routine. Tucker did it except laid down on the sit. Super old school. You were taught exactly the exercises in pre-Novice, no more, no less (mind you, that is just Novice obedience without off-lead heeling, and recall & stays on a 6 foot leash...that's it). 
Tucker had 2 CD legs by 10 months old, never finished his CD because he became paranoid about group stays due to a long and stupid history of being mistreated on the group exercises. Of course, now he would never have to do it.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

My first trainer had been showing GSDs since literally the 50s, but I'm not sure she ever got a UD much less an OTCH....the stuff she had us do was just...wow


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## GrandmaToGoldens (Jul 2, 2019)

Megora said:


> This actually has more meaning than one to me...
> 
> I think some people are trying so hard to buy the right things when they are starting off - and they keep adding more this's and that's until the owner has like a big pantry full of dog supplies, much of wish they don't even know what to use it for or why they got it, other than somebody raved about it on FB....
> 
> ...


i‘d love to see the list (or photos!) of your 10 essential items.


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