# Buying Puppy from the Ukraine??



## Janik23 (Nov 20, 2012)

Hi there,

I really fell in love with this puppy. Please see the link below:

English Golden Retrievers Puppies for Sale: Loving Girl


She is 9 months old, and comes with full registration and pedigree. He x-rayed her and checked for hips/elbows and it came back "good". Should i ask for a copy?? Based on what I have read the dog has to be 2 years of age to get OFA in order to be acceptable for breeding? 

She is now 9 months old so is there a way to make sure that she will pass OFA when she turns 2 years??


Now other then making sure the dog is in good health, is there a way to tell if this is a scam. How can I make sure that he actually owns this dog? I asked for addittional pictures which he send me already. Is there any tricks to tell if this is scam? Should I ask for a copy of the x-rays or pedigree?

Please tell me all other concern you might have? Are there any other very important questions I should ask?


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## Millie'sMom (Sep 7, 2012)

Sorry, No I would not purchase a dog from overseas, especially from someone you do not know. You are correct to have questions about the seller, and his claims. I am not even sure if you can verify that the puppy you would get is the same one in the pictures.

I would worry about her temperament, how much socialization she has had, and why is he getting rid of a 9mth puppy.

You are correct, OFA final clearances cannot be done until 2 years. You can get preliminary clearances prior to 2, but they are not considered final clearances. I have also heard of breeders who have had preliminary xrays done prior to 2 years with a good rating, only to have the same dog fail final clearances at 2. 

The best way to predict if a dog will pass OFA hips at 2, is to purchase a puppy from a pedigree with at least 3 generations of passing hip/elbow clearances. Can this seller produce copies of those clearances, for this pups parents, grandparents and great-grandparents.

If you are looking for a English style golden there are a large number of breeders in Ontario that favour that style, and are doing all health clearances etc, for about half the price.


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## lhowemt (Jun 28, 2013)

Unfortunately it is likely a puppy mill or icky greeder breeder. I would stay away from that website and search for a puppy using methods outlined on the "finding a breeder" sticky (and other threads) on this forum


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## Willow52 (Aug 14, 2009)

I would worry that after I send the funds, either the puppy would never arrive or it wouldn't be the one pictured or what I was expecting.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Janik23 said:


> Hi there,
> 
> She is 9 months old, and comes with full registration and pedigree. He x-rayed her and checked for hips/elbows and it came back "good". Should i ask for a copy?? Based on what I have read the dog has to be 2 years of age to get OFA in order to be acceptable for breeding?
> 
> ...


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## Janik23 (Nov 20, 2012)

Yes I would like to breed her but only if she turns out be a great dog with great temperament and all health clearances. 

I am really interested in breeding and already played with the idea to look for a mentor to learn about the breed. There is only one "English Cream" Golden Retriever Breeder in my province.. There are a couple of "American Golden Breeder but since I am looking for breeding the english cream type should'nt I choose the english cream breeder. I am only worried that they will turn me down as they might think of me as a potential competitor???

Any recommendations would be great, learning with a mentor is proably the best way to go, but maybe any books, or websites would be good for the start?

Anyway, I donk think he trying to rip me off. I did ask him if I could come and pick up the dog in person and he agreed. This tells me that he actually owns the dog and is not a scam. He even listed a phone number to contact which is another proof that he is legit, because usually scammers never list conact information or send adittional pictures. Yet again he still might not send me the dog after I made the payment, OR he will not send me the same dog as in the pictues. 

I will think about it and talk with him on the phone again. 

Any more thoughts will be appreciated.

If i decide to purchase her I will let you know and post pictures of my new puppy! 







Prism Goldens said:


> Janik23 said:
> 
> 
> > Hi there,
> ...


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

There is no such thing as an "English Cream" golden retriever. It is a marketing ploy that takes advantage of the dogs color. I'm sure there are more english type breeders than you think, but the good ones don't list them as creams or cremes. And it's all the same breed so it really doesn't matter if you find an American or an English lines breeder to mentor you, just as long as they're knowledgeable and reputable.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Short answer is nope.  

If a dog is that valuable or well-bred, a good breeder will keep the dog in their own program or sell to people they know and trust. If they are advertising like this worldwide to whoever....it means that they know people further away from home - who are unable to see where this dog is coming from - will be more impressed and buy whatever. 

I would not buy this dog for any amount, nor would I be very interested in puppies from her. 

Why not start out with a golden retriever purchased locally and get involved with the golden retriever clubs around you? Put 5-10 years into the breed and then decide after that if you still want to become a breeder? At the very least, by that time you will know enough people and have enough of a background for a good breeder to trust you enough to sell you a puppy you could breed down the road. 

I think a lot of breeders are not willing to sell pups with breeding registration to new people because in the past you've had puppies from good breeders winding up in backyard breeding homes and puppy mills and bred indiscriminately, etc...


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Personally, if you want to get into competition and breed, I would look for a foundation bitch closer to home. There are a lot of English style breeders in Canada and the US. Do your homework, learn more about the breed, find a mentor and then look for a dog.

Rarely do US or foreign breeders ship their best dogs overseas, and especially not to novices. Most good breeders will want to see that you have proven yourself in some area before agreeing to sell you a bitch, and they will want to know you, or your references.

I am pretty sure he did not send hip and elbow X-rays to OFA, so who did score them? And what were the scores? Not sure they do hearts there. What about her eyes? And you need this information on 3-5 generations of her pedigree.

My advice is to slow down, and as I said above, learn all you can, find a mentor and then look for a dog.

This website might prove useful

http://englishgoldens.net


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Our breed could certainly use more reputable breeders. It is not easy nor cheap to be one. As a money making venture, it is not a great idea. Most new breeders will only make it a few years before quitting because it is demanding, expensive, and at times heartbreaking, frustrating or irritating. 

That being said, you need a good mentor. A good mentor will not see you as competition but as a partner in their love of this breed and an ally for doing things the reputable way. Yes, sure you are at sometime probably going to be competition in the ring showing but that is no big deal. Reputable breeders almost always have more homes waiting that they can ever produce puppies. Only greeders, those who breed for pure profit without much thought to the impact on the breed or dogs, care about competition placing puppies. 

With your concern on health clearances it sounds like you might be headed the right way. You are a little cart before horse here. One of the other terms for a reputable breeder is a hobby breeder. In that term, the hobby is not breeding, but is competing in some venue and then possibly breeding to get that next competition dog.

So, my suggestion is to find a mentor in your own country, maybe more that one if you are geographically distant from breeders of your chosen style. So you know, TYPE is those features that make a Golden a Golden and not an Irish Setter or a Cocker or a Pug. STYLE is the range of different looks that are within a breed and dogs of different styles will look different for each other but should still have breed type and be easily recognizable as a Golden. Color is like paint on a car very superficial, good breeders may have a preference for color but not at the expense of things like temperament, angulation, structure or type. It sounds like you are looking for a British or European style golden and you prefer a light gold or cream color. There is as has been pointed out before no such thing as English Cream Golden Retrievers. If you think about it, what do they call these dogs in the UK? Of course they are Golden Retrievers.

Even if a breeder does not own your style, they could be a great mentor still, especially in showing, grooming, and resources. Find a breeder with dogs doing something like conformation that you admire and then persue a relationship with them.

I don't know if you have other dogs, but getting a show potential puppy of either gender from a reputable breeder is not easy. If you have a dog currently, I suggest getting out and doing something with that dog. It shows that you are active and want to compete. Your first puppy from a reputable breeder will likely be on a co-ownership so be prepared for that to come up in conversations. 

As far as the site goes, run screaming from it! That is a terrible place to buy from. If you do want to import, you need to do the same thing, reach out and establish a relationship with a foreign breeder. There are some very nice kennels overseas that will export. Not many are left in the UK that will at all because they have seen too many get used in the whole North American "White" Golden breeding scams. Although I am sure there are quality breeders are over there, it seems that there are quite a few high volume breeders in the former Soviet States like Ukraine, Slovakia, Croatia, etc. these folks are breeding to sell these dogs to North America at high price. 

I would like to give you a scenario to ponder. 
You are a successful breeder in a foreign country. Your dream litter has just arrived after completing you bitch's Championship, passing her clearances and picking the perfect stud. He has matching accomplishments of better, you have spend months researching the pedigree, ancestors health clearances, and best of all this litter should produce and even nicer puppy than the mom if every thing you planed works out. 

As they are born, you see you have three puppy bitches, upon final evaluation you find the following. 
*Puppy bitch A* is everything you dreamed, if she maintains her potential she should not only finish a Championship but it is likely she will be a competitor in group or Best in Show level competition. 
*Puppy B* is a nice bitch and is the same quality as the mom so, she is likely to be able to finish a Championship. She has some lovely attributes but also a few of the mom's same faults you were hoping to improve.
*Puppy C* is a very nice pet she is not as high in quality as either of her parents. She not only carries her mom's faults but has also inherited some weaknesses from the father. If the right person handled her perhaps she could obtain a Championship but it would take luck, picking certain judges to show to, and perhaps hiring a pro to show her. All in all not what you were looking for from this pairing.

Okay, accomplished breeder. Now that you know the puppies where do you place them? 
Home 1 is you. What do you keep for yourself?
Home 2 is your fellow breeder and friend of 15 years who has admired your bitch for a while and loves the boy you selected. This home is in the same or bordering country and you will be able to see this puppy as she grows.
Home 3 is an inquiry from North America requesting a show bitch. This person has never owned a Golden before and has never shown a dog. You know that your style is not the most common over there in the show ring and many dogs like yours are being used to pump out "white" puppies for a profit. You reach out to your breeder friends/acquaintances in North America and they don't know this person either.

How would you pair the homes and puppies?

If I was that breeder, I would keep A for myself, place B with my friend, and C might go to North America or maybe to just a pet home in my own country. 

So, you see the pitfall of importing is that anyone who will export a puppy to anyone with cash in hand is probably not someone you want to buy from at all. Those amazing foreign kennels you would want to buy from won't sell to someone without a relationship and that can take years to build.

That is why I would suggest staying local for your first few. If you want to import in the future, start identifying foreign kennels now and workflow are building a relationship over time. Do things with your dogs so they can see that you are not like the greeders that have tainted the export option for many great breeders.


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## Millie'sMom (Sep 7, 2012)

Here is the Golden Retriever Club of Canada's statement on "English Creams".

English Cream Golden Retrievers | The Golden Retriever Club of Canada

I agree with the other posters, and suggest you find a dog closer to home. I don't know any breeders in Manitoba but there are a number in Ontario, that have that style of dog, and are doing the clearances etc.

However, if you are intent on buying that puppy, I would pick it up in person. Prior to buying it, I would have the puppy, its hip/elbow xrays and the generations of clearances checked out by a reputable vet of your choosing. If there is a vet school in the area, I would contact them for a reference. The cost would be significantly less than bringing home a questionable pup.

Ultimately, the decision is yours, but a lot of very experienced people are telling you this is not a good idea.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Vets are really not very helpful in reviewing clearances, unless they are specialists in the area (orthopedics or cardiology, for example) or are breeder vets. Your best bet for reviewing clearances is a breeder familiar with clearances from that particular country and how they are done, and even better if they are familiar with the pedigrees and lines in that particular pedigree.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Megora said:


> Short answer is nope.
> 
> If a dog is that valuable or well-bred, a good breeder will keep the dog in their own program or sell to people they know and trust. If they are advertising like this worldwide to whoever....it means that they know people further away from home - who are unable to see where this dog is coming from - will be more impressed and buy whatever.
> 
> ...


DITTO all the way around for me. I fear that if OP begins breeding without involvement, she'll be posted about downline here...no one should start breeding without a long period of study and breed involvement.


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## Anon-2130948gsoni (Apr 12, 2014)

Why aren't you looking closer to home for your puppy? $3500 should buy you a spectacular dog from a breeder that does everything right--that's at least a thousand more than most really good breeders charge here in the northeast. Are you saying that a good breeder here won't sell you a bitch for potential breeding, and that's why you're pursuing this? I'm confused.

Most people who are running scams are very, very good talkers and they're charming as anything, so I'm not surprised he's reassuring you with non-answers. 

I might, under extraordinary circumstances, take in a rescue from overseas. I would never _buy_ one that way sight unseen, especially with all of these red flags.

Yes, those photos are adorable...but if I'm running an international puppy mill, I re-use the really cute photos over and over again, because what recourse would you have if you're standing in an airport looking at a completely different dog?

Please look elsewhere. This has heartache written all over it.


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