# Mercy's lack of tolerance with unnuetered dogs



## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Goldens play rough. I do step in after a while, but they will wrestle and take turns being top dog and bottom dog (top dog chewing on the other dog's head, bottom dog chewing on top dog's legs). No growling really, but a lot of snarly faces and snotting on each other. Both are intact.

Humping is not allowed. Period. 

And honestly - if you want Mercy to stay nice with other dogs, do not do dog parks.


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## CharlieBear80 (Oct 13, 2013)

There's a difference between problematic aggression though and a dog giving acceptable signals to another dog that it needs to back off. Which one is she doing?

And I agree, dog parks aren't a great place for teaching dogs appropriate manners around other dogs, because usually they are filled with, well, people who have no idea how to teach that to their dogs!


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

It's my understanding that playing is not silent. Growling is part of the play; the talking. Growling is just a sound dogs make. It's the situation, the body language, the other dog's body language that define what the growl means.

I think you're going to find that rough play DOES have it's sound effects.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

Megora said:


> Goldens play rough. I do step in after a while, but they will wrestle and take turns being top dog and bottom dog (top dog chewing on the other dog's head, bottom dog chewing on top dog's legs). No growling really, but a lot of snarly faces and snotting on each other. Both are intact.
> 
> Humping is not allowed. Period.
> 
> And honestly - if you want Mercy to stay nice with other dogs, do not do dog parks.


I've noticed that with Mercy and other Goldens too. I might have to just meet with my local Golden friend who attends our dog park in the baseball field in the future.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

CharlieBear80 said:


> There's a difference between problematic aggression though and a dog giving acceptable signals to another dog that it needs to back off. Which one is she doing?
> 
> And I agree, dog parks aren't a great place for teaching dogs appropriate manners around other dogs, because usually they are filled with, well, people who have no idea how to teach that to their dogs!


If I had not experienced another dog with aggression problems before, I would say it's definitely a back off warning. It is about 85% back off, but she is starting to pin dogs on the ground with a ferocious growl.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

Penny's Mom said:


> It's my understanding that playing is not silent. Growling is part of the play; the talking. Growling is just a sound dogs make. It's the situation, the body language, the other dog's body language that define what the growl means.
> 
> I think you're going to find that rough play DOES have it's sound effects.


I pray that your hunch is correct.

One place to see if it's just certain dogs or whether it's spreading to other dogs would be to take her to the Golden Retriever Meetup where there are only Goldens. They only meet every other month. It takes place at the Leesburg Country Club for a fee.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

Is Mercy intact?


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

Selli-Belle said:


> Is Mercy intact?


No, she's spayed.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

When was she spayed?


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## Gwen_Dandridge (Jul 14, 2012)

We had trouble with Maddie with this when she was very, very young. It was cured by putting her in doggy day care where they monitored her and she learned, as a tiny pup, that the big dogs would not tolerate her behavior. It was a safe-ish place as there were people watching who knew what the issue was. The little dear couldn't go in with the small pups her size as she traumatized them immediately, pinning them one after another.

I don't know if you're having a problem or not, but I do know how scary it can be when your little darling fluff-ball draws blood on another dog.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

I had this problem with Hunter. I kept him on a leash and a pinch collar. When Mercy reacts poorly to other dogs, you should do a pop correction with the pinch collar and tell her NO. It needs to happen immediately when it happens so the dog makes the association with the behavior and the pop. It needs to be a quick snap without nagging. Just a quick reminder that no you can't do that. I would set her up with people you know. Simulate a walk where another dog approaches. Then when she reacts, correct. Nip it in the bud now before it gets worse.


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## Davidrob2 (Dec 10, 2012)

Please don't be overly concerned on my and Harry's account. Harry had a wonderful time playing with Mercy today and looked all over the yard for her after you left.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

Selli-Belle said:


> When was she spayed?


She was spayed at 12 months old in February.


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## olliversmom (Mar 13, 2013)

Dog interactions can seem brash but may not necessarily be so.
In one week,t little intact Olliver has gotten 3 stiff warnings from 2 golden gals and a lab gal. He is 7 months old, feeling his oats and pushy. They are all older and had enuf of the rough boy play. All of them growled and went at him but did not bite. While it seemed aggressive to alan, to me it was just a warning that Ollie had better tone it down. Older dogs teaching teenager some manners. 
And he learned quickly. Backed way off and played ball with mom. Until his buddy Charlie showed up. Then bitey face wrestling ensued for a happy hour. 

If you are not sure if you may be interpreting Mercys aggression, maybe a trained eye could observe her interactions and see what's what.


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## Joanne & Asia (Jul 23, 2007)

I would get some advice from a trainer to help you identify if it is the beginning of a problem and limit or if possible avoid dog parks. This is how Asia's aggression issues started. She was always so submissive but got bullied at the dog park and inexperienced as I was I did not intervene as I should have resulting in her starting to pin dogs. She was about 18 months when it started. My anxiety after escalated it I am sure and our trainer felt she was protecting me and recommended I relax(easier said than done ha ha) and do NILF training with her. She still will become aggressive with the occasional dog we meet if they give her whatever signal triggers her but only when she is with me. She is perfect when she has been kenneled or with her hiking group so I know the problem is me. That is the main reason I started sending her on these hikes to socialize her more with other socialized dogs and in a supervised setting with an experienced dog handler. and it has helped her confidence. I don't mean to scare you, just wanted to share my experience in case it helps. It is great you are taking action at the beginning of what may or may not be an issue. Keep us posted.


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## Cooper'sMom2013 (Sep 14, 2013)

Penny's Mom said:


> It's my understanding that playing is not silent. Growling is part of the play; the talking. Growling is just a sound dogs make. It's the situation, the body language, the other dog's body language that define what the growl means.
> 
> I think you're going to find that rough play DOES have it's sound effects.


My 10 week old Golden and 2.5yo Dachshund are vocal when they're playing. Lots of growling and an occasional yip. I can tell the difference between play growling and "back off" growling with my Dachshund and will intervene since puppy usually ignores the signal and pesters. 

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## Leslie B (Mar 17, 2011)

There is a very subtle non verbal communication that an adult, unaltered male will often give to a female - spayed or not. Basically it is that "hey babe, want a date?" It is a check to see if they are getting close to coming into heat. If the girl is not receptive, she will turn and say "no" with what can look like aggression to the average person. If Mercy is getting aggressive only with unaltered male dogs, I would suspect that is what she is doing and I would not be concerned about it at all.


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## dgmama (Nov 29, 2012)

My girl Ginger growls if another dog is playing too intense or getting in her face. I don't correct her. I appreciate that she gives them warnings. And not all dogs like every dog they meet. Same with us humans. And yeah, humping is def a no no in public.


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

OP I notice that you're in Virginia. 

I took Max to classes to Peaceable Paws and I loved it there. You can have Mercy evaluated with a Pat Miller behaviourist. It's difficult to know whether Mercy is correcting a dog for being pushy or whether she is developing an issue. 

Here is the info for the class that may be of interest to you.

Peaceable Paws


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

Joanne & Asia said:


> I would get some advice from a trainer to help you identify if it is the beginning of a problem and limit or if possible avoid dog parks. This is how Asia's aggression issues started. She was always so submissive but got bullied at the dog park and inexperienced as I was I did not intervene as I should have resulting in her starting to pin dogs. She was about 18 months when it started. My anxiety after escalated it I am sure and our trainer felt she was protecting me and recommended I relax(easier said than done ha ha) and do NILF training with her. She still will become aggressive with the occasional dog we meet if they give her whatever signal triggers her but only when she is with me. She is perfect when she has been kenneled or with her hiking group so I know the problem is me. That is the main reason I started sending her on these hikes to socialize her more with other socialized dogs and in a supervised setting with an experienced dog handler. and it has helped her confidence. I don't mean to scare you, just wanted to share my experience in case it helps. It is great you are taking action at the beginning of what may or may not be an issue. Keep us posted.


Thanks. This really helps. I will try to find a trainer with a doggy playtime. I hope I can find it.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

Leslie B said:


> There is a very subtle non verbal communication that an adult, unaltered male will often give to a female - spayed or not. Basically it is that "hey babe, want a date?" It is a check to see if they are getting close to coming into heat. If the girl is not receptive, she will turn and say "no" with what can look like aggression to the average person. If Mercy is getting aggressive only with unaltered male dogs, I would suspect that is what she is doing and I would not be concerned about it at all.


This is what I am hoping it is.:crossfing


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

Lilliam said:


> OP I notice that you're in Virginia.
> 
> I took Max to classes to Peaceable Paws and I loved it there. You can have Mercy evaluated with a Pat Miller behaviourist. It's difficult to know whether Mercy is correcting a dog for being pushy or whether she is developing an issue.
> 
> ...


Thanks man!


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

Okay, I found this place that was related to the Peaceable Paws in Fredericksburg VA. There are none of these types of trainers near me either, which adds to the frustration of there not being decent trainers in Manassas.:cookoo: I sent her a message via form. I could possibly drive down there once or twice for a play session or something, but I cannot drive to Fredericksburg on a regular basis. Perhaps this might also get me a step closer to finding sub-novice training as well. The place is called Paws of Change. I love the person's philosophy. 

My next CGCA class is tomorrow by the way.


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## Lilliam (Apr 28, 2010)

MercyMom said:


> Okay, I found this place that was related to the Peaceable Paws in Fredericksburg VA. There are none of these types of trainers near me either, which adds to the frustration of there not being decent trainers in Manassas.:cookoo: I sent her a message via form. I could possibly drive down there once or twice for a play session or something, but I cannot drive to Fredericksburg on a regular basis. Perhaps this might also get me a step closer to finding sub-novice training as well. The place is called Paws of Change. I love the person's philosophy.
> 
> My next CGCA class is tomorrow by the way.


Ah that's too bad. I go to their Hagerstown MD campus for Max's classes.

I love it there.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

*Mercy's aggression towards young female*

I took Mercy on a hike with my Retriever Hiking and Swimming Group yesterday. For pictures of the event, click -> http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...illiam-forest-park-yesterday.html#post3753490

During meet and greet before the hike started, Mercy and I said hello to a couple with a 14 month old Golden named Emma. After sniffing Emma, Mercy growled at her and started to pin her. Of course I pulled her off and corrected her. I decided to reintroduce Mercy to Emma and Mercy behaved. I gave her a treat for it. I am not sure whether Emma was spayed or not. Emma is a bit timid. I was told she flunked out of Guide Dog school due to her timidity. Mercy must have sensed Emma's timidity, but she should not be a bully towards her like that because of it! Afterwards, there were no more problems. Mercy later had a good time playing with the other Goldens and Labs in the river at two spots during the hike. Mercy also played with Emma some in the river. 
Why do you think Mercy picked on poor Emma like that?

Mercy playing nice with Emma during the hike


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

I hae decided to consult with the trainer from our church again, the same woman I turned to six months ago when Mercy was barking in the middle of the night, to help me train Mercy to play nice with all dogs that are not unnuetered males.


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## Bosn'sMom (Feb 11, 2013)

i do know that neutered dogs can be aggressive to in tact dogs. kind of a jealousy thing. our doggy daycare suggested we neuter Bo earlier than we had originally planned (we still waited until 10 months) because he was getting growled at a lot and he did not even provoke the behavior.


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## Charliethree (Jul 18, 2010)

There may come a time when you will need to accept that dogs, just like people, are not going to like and get along with everyone they meet. They have their own minds and reasons we may not be able to make sense of, sometimes it is about trusting, sometimes it is past experiences, sometimes it is the signals they are receiving from the other dogs that they are not comfortable with. Insisting that they play and interact with dogs they are not feeling safe around increases the risk of escalation in behavior and the odds of things going very 'wrong'.
Focus on teaching her to focus her attention on you when on leash in situations that you need to avoid the possibility of something going awry. Take the time to figure out which dogs she enjoys playing with and let her have her fun - she deserves that much.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

Of course, I will not force Mercy to do anything she doesn't feel comfortable with. I have been doing my best to minimize Mercy being picked on throughout her life. I wish to gain her confidence and yes, I can do that by not putting her around dogs she doesn't like. It is hard to tell which dogs she will be uncomfortable with at first. I would like for Mercy to enjoy other dogs like any mentally healthy Golden Retriever can. Most of the dogs Mercy growls at are dogs she wants to say hello to at first. If it were a therapy dog group going on a visit, things would be different. I would want her full attention on me and keep her as far as other dogs as possible. It is only during playtime or an informal meet and greet where it is nice for Mercy to greet other dogs she would feel comfortable with.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

Here's the latest on figuring out how far Mercy's aggressive problems have gone. I have been trying to get in touch with a person, whom I hope will be like a good mentor to me, Patty. She's a woman from my church who owns a kennel. I had mentioned her before. She is so hard to get a hold of though, and I get concerned that she might be avoiding me. (I can't stand people acting to my face like they really want to be a support, friend or help etc. while secretly trying to avoid me.) I've had too much of people whom I thought I could rely on for help avoiding me or making excuses as to why they can't talk to me. With that aside, when I talked to Patty a week and a half ago, about Mercy having aggression towards a female, she said she would have a consult with me at her pet resort with Mercy playing with her Schitzhund trained German Shepherds to see whether she really has a problem or what it the real cause behind it. Patty is at the top of her game, and I believe if we could just finally hook up, we could really hit it off and that she would be a great help.


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