# Cause of Hemangio in Goldens??



## LibertyME

Im not a cancer specialist by any means, but I believe it is far more complicated then the sperm from one dog or the egg from another. As human beings it makes us 'feel better' if we can point a finger at one specific, verifiable, 'cause'....It makes us feel like if we can just avoid the "X" factor that our dogs will be safe and our hearts will be saved from heartbreak...


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## Claire's Friend

But haven't they linked PRA back to a single source?


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## iansgran

I will be interested in this thread. While some cancers in humans are environmental, some do have genetic roots, and some they just don't know yet. Also, I just looked at Jaro's pedigree and 8 generations back there is Teddy Bear.


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## LibertyME

Someone will correct me ....but the way I understand it...prcd-PRA is a specific kind of PRA. 
It now has an identifiable genetic marker on a specific gene...which is slightly different then a test that says 'yes you have *the* gene'. The prcd-PRA test indicates if a dog is clear, affected or a carrier. An affected dog can be bred to a clear and have puppies that are not affected but would all be carriers. (Not saying they should be bred...but it could be done without the puppies suffering...).

I certainly dont read all the literature, but don't think they have traced the prcd-PRA mutation back to 'one specific golden'


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## Claire's Friend

I could be wrong too, I am only repeating what I have heard and read. My brain turned to mush doing all the research on breeders and clearances. My first 4 Goldens all died of old age at 15 -17. When I got JOY (98) I had never heard of Hemangiosarcoma, SAS, PRA, etc. I only knew Goldens had problems with their hips and thyroids.


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## Sally's Mom

My dad has done cancer research all of my life... still at it at 86 years! If cancer "inheritance" were that predictable, he would've been out of a job a long time ago. To simplify hemangio and blame it all one dog is IMO ludicrous. If indeed, it is Gold Rush Teddy Bear or Charlie even, these dogs figure into many American golden pedigrees. Then do we also attribute SAS to them? Hereditary cataracts? Hip dysplasia? I think that there is more to cancer than that.

The prcd-PRA is just one type of PRA that happens to have a genetic marker. Studying pedigrees of dogs that have it, it definitely seems to be confined to several specific lines.


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## AmbikaGR

I agree with Sally's Mom and will add how irresponsible I think the WDJ is for publishing such an article without actual facts and have written them stating my displeasure over it.


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## LibertyME

My guess is that they (the diseases and health issues) have always been around. 
The internet has connected pet owners/vets/researchers with similar experiences in a way that was not possible before. Because communication is easier and databases commonly used...the information is floating out there with relative easy access. Interpretation and study of the data is another subject entirely.


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## AmbikaGR

Claire's Friend said:


> If this is true or even a possibility, why do breeders continue to use frozen sperm form sires who have died of cancer?



At what age do we realize that a dog will eventually die of something. My Keeper lived to 13 1/2 years old and died of a liver cancer, does that mean I should never consider breeding anything that goes back to her?


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## PrincessDi

*I'm sorry to weigh in here but...*

having just lost my baby girl to hemangiosarcoma not 3 weeks ago, I definitely think that being proactive in learning more is being a GOOD PARENT!! One month ago, our girl was vibrant, alive and healthy. This evil disease took her overnight. Not only did we loose our Di, but Nath lost General 3 days later and had also lost Belle 4 weeks prior, Maddie's Mommy lost Maddie 5/21, Sophie died 5/19. All of these cruel losses were due to hemangiosarcoma. Not to mention all of the losses that Claire's Friend lost to this vile disease. So no, I think we have every right to try to find some answers to this senseless disease!!!!!!!



AmbikaGR said:


> At what age do we realize that a dog will eventually die of something. My Keeper lived to 13 1/2 years old and died of a liver cancer, does that mean I should never consider breeding anything that goes back to her?


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## Claire's Friend

AmbikaGR said:


> At what age do we realize that a dog will eventually die of something. My Keeper lived to 13 1/2 years old and died of a liver cancer, does that mean I should never consider breeding anything that goes back to her?


I like and respect you too much to give you my honest answer.


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## my4goldens

PrincessDi said:


> having just lost my baby girl to hemangiosarcoma not 3 weeks ago, I definitely think that being proactive in learning more is being a GOOD PARENT!! One month ago, our girl was vibrant, alive and healthy. This evil disease took her overnight. Not only did we loose our Di, but Nath lost General 3 days later and had also lost Belle 4 weeks prior, Maddie's Mommy lost Maddie 5/21, Sophie died 5/19. All of these cruel losses were due to hemangiosarcoma. Not to mention all of the losses that Claire's Friend lost to this vile disease. So no, I think we have every right to try to find some answers to this senseless disease!!!!!!!


I lost my Tess 7 weeks ago today to hemangio too. I hate this disease. Tess was healthy the first of April, she died April 20. I don't know if there is any truth that this disease can be traced back to one dog. I just wish we knew how we can reduce the number of our dogs dying from it.


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## iansgran

When I was looking for a breeder, one of them talked to me about how the age at which our Goldens die is decreasing. She said 30 years ago they usually lived to 12-15 but now so many were dieing at 7 and 8. Has something changed? Is it environmental or genetic? Is there research on the issue? Even with all the new environmental cancers humans are living longer, so something is amiss here.


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## Ljilly28

I've also lost two beloved goldens to hemangiosarcoma, and I have even read speculations that the original selection of coat color far before Charlie etc might have unwittingly played a part in selecting a predisposition to cancer as a side effect. Right now, loving a golden carries with it a serious risk of hemangiosarcoma no matter the line or pedigree IMO. It is magic and loss. I do not believe anyone knows how to breed away from this cancer.


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## AmbikaGR

PrincessDi said:


> having just lost my baby girl to hemangiosarcoma not 3 weeks ago, I definitely think that being proactive in learning more is being a GOOD PARENT!! One month ago, our girl was vibrant, alive and healthy. This evil disease took her overnight. Not only did we loose our Di, but Nath lost General 3 days later and had also lost Belle 4 weeks prior, Maddie's Mommy lost Maddie 5/21, Sophie died 5/19. All of these cruel losses were due to hemangiosarcoma. Not to mention all of the losses that Claire's Friend lost to this vile disease. So no, I think we have every right to try to find some answers to this senseless disease!!!!!!!



And no where did I say that we do not need to find answers to cancer. I agree that we need to support all the research financially and with tissue/DNA samples. The three girls in my signature waiting at the bridge all died from cancer. Brandi at 10 1/2 years, Keeper at 13 1/2 years and Kizmet at 15 months.


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## PrincessDi

Ljilly28 said:


> I've also lost two beloved golden to hemangiosarcoma, and I have even read speculations that the original selection of coat color far before Charlie etc might have unwittingly played a part in selecting a predisposition to cancer as a side effect. Right now, loving a golden carries with it a serious risk of hemangiosarcoma no matter the line or pedigree IMO. It is magic and loss. I do not believe anyone knows how to breed away from this cancer.


Di was very blonde as a puppy and her Mother and Dad were very blonde adults. I've never read that before. But seems like so much is so unknown about this disease.

I'm sorry that I'm so angry about this disease. It's just real hard right now.


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## PrincessDi

Ljilly28 said:


> I've also lost two beloved golden to hemangiosarcoma, and I have even read speculations that the original selection of coat color far before Charlie etc might have unwittingly played a part in selecting a predisposition to cancer as a side effect. Right now, loving a golden carries with it a serious risk of hemangiosarcoma no matter the line or pedigree IMO. It is magic and loss. I do not believe anyone knows how to breed away from this cancer.


Di was very blonde as a puppy. Her parents were both very blonde adults. 

I am sorry, but I'm just really angry that we lost our girl, Di.
not sure why it said it didn't go the first time.


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## LibertyME

PrincessDi said:


> So no, I think we have every right to try to find some answers to this senseless disease!!!!!!!


No one has said that you (or anyone else) should smile through your pain...


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## AmbikaGR

PrincessDi said:


> I'm sorry that I'm so angry about this disease. It's just real hard right now.



I hope this comes across the way I mean it and is not misunderstood.
But PLEASE stay angry, never forget about it and be as proactive as you can. That is how things get done generally. It is when folks "get over it" and become apathetic that things do not get accomplished. A great example of this is PU. Been around for decades apparently but not "hated" enough to be brought to the forefront till recently. Now a huge movement to do something about it.


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## Sally's Mom

My Sally died at 12 1/2 years form cardiac hemangio... while we are on a witch hunt, I don't see Gold Rush, but she had mutliple backcrosses to Sunset's Misty Morn. Laney died of splenic hemangio at almost 12 years, she does have Gold Rush in maybe the sixth generation. Sally had siblings who died from breain cancer much earlier than she did. Her mom died from cancer at 7 years, maternal grandam died at 13 years from mast cell cancer. Laney had both parents live well into their teens.. she had siblings who died at 8 and one who died at 14 years from fibrosarcoma. Cancer is just not that simple. If it were, then my 86 year old dad shouldn't have outlived his dad who died from colon cancer at 60. And my mom died form pancreatic cancer last year at 83... both of her parents lived until almost 90 and died from cardiac disease. The only way we can all work on this is to donate samples of our dogs' tumors and blood to labs like the Modiano and Breen labs who are doing research for genetic markers.


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## LibertyME

Amen Hank!
It is upon all of us to think of ways we can contribute...
I have study information stapled into my dogs veterinary folders...so that heaven forbid when the day comes I will 'remember' the greater good and do something about it by donating tissue/blood that can be added to the research.


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## DaisyGolden

I don't know if there is anything to this but my Daisy died of hemangio at 6 years old and she is related to Teddy Bear. I wonder if the other dogs on here that have died of hemangio were related to him too.


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## LibertyME

Sally's Mom (and other vets)....Do you ask grieving clients to consider donating tissue for research? If so, how has it been received...do clients agree?


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## AmbikaGR

Back to the WDJ article. My beef is that the author is not using facts but anecdotal evidence to substantiate her claim. There are a handful of dogs that are present in probably 90% of pedigrees that go back in anyway to conformation dogs. And although this dreaded disease is found also in field, byb and imported dogs the conformation dog lines are the prevalent lines in the US and I believe thus easy scapegoat for the "problem" in Goldens. There has been ongoing longtime research going on and the expert scientists have not been able to make the link to "lines". When and "IF" they are able to make that kind of correlation will we have some idea as to how to intelligently move forward.


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## AmbikaGR

DaisyGolden said:


> I don't know if there is anything to this but my Daisy died of hemangio at 6 years old and she is related to Teddy Bear. I wonder if the other dogs on here that have died of hemangio were related to him too.



6 years old is barely half a life a Golden should live, I am so sorry. Teddy is one of those dogs I spoke of in my earlier post. I am sure that there are many dogs from this forum, and outside the forum, that have died from hemangio, but at this time we (the experts that is) do not know why.


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## Sally's Mom

I have certain clients, the PWD people who are very proactive. Several years ago, I believe it was the Breen lab was looking for aged healthy dogs of certain breeds. so I gathered up some of my dogs, tech's dogs, and tech's friend's dogs, took blood and sent blood. Since it has to be overnighted, it's fairly expensive to ship and it was on my dollar. When I sent samples of lymphoma and blood from those dogs with cancer, the Modiano lab paid for it. It's tricky because you need their culture media ahead of time to send a fresh sample and you have to know that the sample you are sending is cancer...then some tissue goes in formalin and they also want blood.


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## cubbysan

Sally's Mom said:


> My Sally died at 12 1/2 years form cardiac hemangio... while we are on a witch hunt, I don't see Gold Rush, but she had mutliple backcrosses to Sunset's Misty Morn. Laney died of splenic hemangio at almost 12 years, she does have Gold Rush in maybe the sixth generation. Sally had siblings who died from breain cancer much earlier than she did. Her mom died from cancer at 7 years, maternal grandam died at 13 years from mast cell cancer. Laney had both parents live well into their teens.. she had siblings who died at 8 and one who died at 14 years from fibrosarcoma. Cancer is just not that simple. If it were, then my 86 year old dad shouldn't have outlived his dad who died from colon cancer at 60. And my mom died form pancreatic cancer last year at 83... both of her parents lived until almost 90 and died from cardiac disease. The only way we can all work on this is to donate samples of our dogs' tumors and blood to labs like the Modiano and Breen labs who are doing research for genetic markers.


In addition, are they also collecting any type of samples in the long lived goldens that die from old age. I think it is just as important to see what life styles and genetics these dogs had.

Edited: Just saw your answer above.


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## my4goldens

When I found out I was going to lose Tess to this disease, I had intended on donating tissue. I thought I had a couple of months to make these plans. When she crashed five days after her diagnosis, I was so distraught that I truly forgot to ask the ER vet about this. Instead I made a donation to the Zeke foundation in her memory. She was a Zeke granddaughter, and I thought this was fitting. In retrospect, I feel bad I didn't donate tissue. It just happened so fast I was overwhelmed by it all.


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## DNL2448

I wrote in another thread that my Turbo (dog laying in front of me in my signature) died, at age 12 of abdominal hemangiosarcoma. I never realized, but suspected, it as when we were at the vet I was to distraut to understand what she was saying, only that he needed to be let go. I didn't know anything about hemangio until after joining the GRF. After hearing about all the losses and reading their stories and symptoms it was then I made the connection. Today I called and verified that, that is indeed what he had. Turbo did not have the dog Gold Rush Great Teddy Bear in his pedigree, though he did have a LOT of Barty.

I think it is a good idea to put the study information in my vet file, just so I and my vet can be reminded should the time ever come...Heaven forbid.


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## AmbikaGR

my4goldens said:


> When I found out I was going to lose Tess to this disease, I had intended on donating tissue. I thought I had a couple of months to make these plans. When she crashed five days after her diagnosis, I was so distraught that I truly forgot to ask the ER vet about this. Instead I made a donation to the Zeke foundation in her memory. She was a Zeke granddaughter, and I thought this was fitting. In retrospect, I feel bad I didn't donate tissue. It just happened so fast I was overwhelmed by it all.



You are not alone in having this transpire, do not beat yourself up over it. But for those of you with a Golden (does not matter if they are 1 year old or 15 year old, does not matter if they are healthy or not, does not matter what "lines") you MUST print out the info from the GRCA today and ask your vet to put it in each of your Goldens folders on your next visit. Below is a link to the info. 
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE do it TODAY!! 

GRCA Cancer study info


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## Dallas Gold

Sally's Mom said:


> My Sally died at 12 1/2 years form cardiac hemangio... while we are on a witch hunt, I don't see Gold Rush, but she had mutliple backcrosses to Sunset's Misty Morn. Laney died of splenic hemangio at almost 12 years, she does have Gold Rush in maybe the sixth generation. Sally had siblings who died from breain cancer much earlier than she did. Her mom died from cancer at 7 years, maternal grandam died at 13 years from mast cell cancer. Laney had both parents live well into their teens.. she had siblings who died at 8 and one who died at 14 years from fibrosarcoma. Cancer is just not that simple. If it were, then my 86 year old dad shouldn't have outlived his dad who died from colon cancer at 60. And my mom died form pancreatic cancer last year at 83... both of her parents lived until almost 90 and died from cardiac disease. The only way we can all work on this is to donate samples of our dogs' tumors and blood to labs like the Modiano and Breen labs who are doing research for genetic markers.


 
I was going to post about the importance of any Golden Retriever owner donating their dog's DNA to the CHIC DNA Databank for research and the importance of any dog suffering from cancer to donate either blood or a part of the tumor to these labs you mentioned. It's important on so many levels. The CHIC databank has all sorts of possibilities in research on cancer or other diseases. *The CHIC DNA samples can be sent by any dog owner--your dog does not need to be diagnosed with cancer*! You can do a simple cheek swab for $5 plus postage, or a blood sample. 

I've gone through hemangiosarcoma twice with my goldens and it is an evil, unrelenting and cruel disease. One of Barkley's greatest legacies after we learned of his diagnosis was to donate a sample of his blood to one of these research studies. It was the one thing I knew that would possibly help future generations and that small donation, which cost me nothing to submit, gave me a little bit of comfort during a traumatic time. One small thing, if done by thousands, might just result in a huge step in protecting our furry loved ones from a cruel fate. Please, remember this thread if your golden is suspected of having hemangio or another cancer and be proactive to help the cause. It's a stressful time and emotions are everywhere, but taking the time to do this will give you a warm fuzzy in a bleak time, knowing you are possibly helping future generations of dogs and their loving owners.


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## Dallas Gold

AmbikaGR said:


> You are not alone in having this transpire, do not beat yourself up over it. But for those of you with a Golden (does not matter if they are 1 year old or 15 year old, does not matter if they are healthy or not, does not matter what "lines") you MUST print out the info from the GRCA today and ask your vet to put it in each of your Goldens folders on your next visit. Below is a link to the info.
> PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE do it TODAY!!
> 
> GRCA Cancer study info


 
MODS--can we make this post and/or link a STICKY in both the CANCER and the main HEALTH sections? Many of us are passionate about this and it would be very helpful to keep this information prominent in these sections so anyone dealing with canine cancer can locate it and participate. Thank you!


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## DNL2448

AmbikaGR said:


> You are not alone in having this transpire, do not beat yourself up over it. But for those of you with a Golden (does not matter if they are 1 year old or 15 year old, does not matter if they are healthy or not, does not matter what "lines") you MUST print out the info from the GRCA today and ask your vet to put it in each of your Goldens folders on your next visit. Below is a link to the info.
> PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE do it TODAY!!
> 
> GRCA Cancer study info


Thanks for the link, Hank and everyone. I've printed it off and taking it to my vet after work!


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## Nath

Trying to blame one dog for the disease in Goldens is not a logical theory for this disease. German Shepards, Boxers, and a few others breeds are also known to have similar numbers in death rates due to this type of cancer. I think the best way to fight it is to support the labs who are trying to understand the disease and find a cure. Sending donations or providing tissues are a really good start. I wish that I would have known more about this disease prior to Belle's diagnosis. We were blindsided this year with having it not only in one of our Goldens but both. They were not related or from the same litter. For my new Golden babies, I have taken proactive approach by making sure they are on a grain free diet, started an exercise routine daily and replaced all my household cleaners to ones with natural ingredients. Including the dog shampoo. But again this is not a guarantee that one of them might also get Hermagio. We need to get the word out there and educate people.


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## Claire's Friend

I don't think anyone is on a witch hunt here. I don't even know if it's Teddy Bear they are referring to. I know of several other "great sires" of probably over 1000 pups that have died of cancer. I didn't even know if it was Hemangio that he died from. Did he?
And for that matter, Baby J has GRGTB in her lines, I have always known it. It scares me, but it's certainly not her fault. But you can believe I will love this little girl each day as if her were her last, just in case.
I so wish UC Davis had asked me for a sample of JOY's blood for research. I was a basket case while I was up there and didn't think about it. They did ask for her body, but when I asked if it would help other dogs, they said no, it would just be interesting to look at. So I said "No"


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## Karen519

*Nath*

Nath

You are so correct. We lost our Samoyed, Snobear, at the age of 10 years old to hemangiosarcoma on March 27, 2010-it literally came on overnight!
Snobear had just survived bloat surgery on Nov. 27, 2009, and all of his blood tests and xrays were normal at that time!

The vet said our Smooch, 11 1/2 year old Golden Ret., had either hemangiosarcoma, or lymphoma. We lost Smooch after 2 wks. on Dec. 7, 2010.


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## cubbysan

Interesting article in easy to understand language...

http://www.grca.org/pdf/health/cancer.pdf


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## tippykayak

Sally's Mom said:


> My dad has done cancer research all of my life... still at it at 86 years! If cancer "inheritance" were that predictable, he would've been out of a job a long time ago. To simplify hemangio and blame it all one dog is IMO ludicrous. If indeed, it is Gold Rush Teddy Bear or Charlie even, these dogs figure into many American golden pedigrees. Then do we also attribute SAS to them? Hereditary cataracts? Hip dysplasia? I think that there is more to cancer than that.


Thank you for this thoroughly sane post coming from your strong science and medicine background. It's ludicrous to think that because a popular sire had a disease that he's the source of it in the breed.

If you went back far enough in most dogs' pedigrees, you'll find one of the popular sires. That makes them easy to blame for things, but that doesn't mean it's fair or accurate to do so.


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## tippykayak

I'm glad folks have chimed in to point out that there is no Golden Retriever-specific cancer. The breed appears to have higher-than-average rates of hemangiosarcoma and rates of osteosarcoma comparable to similarly sized dogs (roughly speaking, osteosarcoma is more common the larger the breed is).

So does this article just assume that there's some mystery gene that makes hemangio more likely and that it was carried by a popular GR sire? That's a totally irresponsible thing to do, since there's simply no evidence that this is the case or that it's even how hemangiosarcoma works.

It's also really hard to pin down how common the disease really is relative to other breeds and how much is influenced by breed popularity and the fact that GR's are frequently owned by people who will pay for heroic measures to diagnose and treat cancer.


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## Sally's Mom

And part of the puzzle, is the honest people who post cause of death on k9data. They are SO few and far between, but Gayle Watkins of Gaylan's Goldens comes to mind...


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## cubbysan

In the article that I attached earlier from the GRCA, one thought is that GR's have a higher percentage of dogs with autoimmune diseases ( allergies, thyroid issues ) possibly making it easier for them to come down with cancer.

It would be interesting what percentage of dogs on this forum died of cancer before the age of ten also had allergies or thyroid issues, or any other autoimmune diseases.

In humans, my aunt in law died of cancer a few years after a kidney transplant. When she went for the transplant, she was told the with the antirejection drugs, she would be more susceptible to cancer.

A friend of mine takes an arthritis drug that suppresses her immune system. She was told the same thing.


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## Debles

I have lost goldens to hemangio(Sophie), megaesophagus(result of low thyroid disease)(Max)osteosarcoma (Selka) and (Shammy) what we thought was a stroke in 1985.

All cancer is horrendous, as well as other diseases that cut our dogs' lives short. If you weren't able to donate blood or tissue , you can donate money to Zeke's Fund through the GRCA.
I have listed all my goldens' cause of death and hereditery illnesses on K9Data.


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## Nath

Claire's Friend said:


> I don't think anyone is on a witch hunt here. I don't even know if it's Teddy Bear they are referring to. I know of several other "great sires" of probably over 1000 pups that have died of cancer. I didn't even know if it was Hemangio that he died from. Did he?
> And for that matter, Baby J has GRGTB in her lines, I have always known it. It scares me, but it's certainly not her fault. But you can believe I will love this little girl each day as if her were her last, just in case.
> I so wish UC Davis had asked me for a sample of JOY's blood for research. I was a basket case while I was up there and didn't think about it. They did ask for her body, but when I asked if it would help other dogs, they said no, it would just be interesting to look at. So I said "No"


I didn't refer this as a witch hunt just that it isn't a logical theory. I've been dealing with this type of cancer since Thanksgiving and just lost my General having been just two weeks tomorrow. I research almost every night until General passed away. So all the information is still very fresh in my mind.


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## Nath

AmbikaGR said:


> I agree with Sally's Mom and will add how irresponsible I think the WDJ is for publishing such an article without actual facts and have written them stating my displeasure over it.


These cancers are genetic. Again, while I don't think all preventative measures are a guarantee. We as owners should know history of our adopted babies if available. I hope you at least let them know about the cancer in the family line. I too have a stronger opinion that I will not post.
You already understand the feeling of losing one of your Golden babies.


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## Nath

Debles said:


> I have lost goldens to hemangio(Sophie), megaesophagus(result of low thyroid disease)(Max)osteosarcoma (Selka) and (Shammy) what we thought was a stroke in 1985.
> 
> All cancer is horrendous, as well as other diseases that cut our dogs' lives short. If you weren't able to donate blood or tissue , you can donate money to Zeke's Fund through the GRCA.
> I have listed all my goldens' cause of death and hereditery illnesses on K9Data.


How does the K9data work? I still have Belle and General's AKC papers.


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## Claire's Friend

Mondiano.lab, is I believe, the leading Hemangiosarcoma research center. They state "it is important to understand that “_cancer is a genetic disease, although it is not always heritable_.” . Reading through their information, it seems they are very close to identifying a Hemangiosarcoma gene or cell. Not that this would help cure Hemangio, but at least carriers of the gene could be eliminated from the breeding pool. 
I HATE this disease, it has taken not only my own dogs, but over 50% of the dogs I have placed through my rescue. We have to do something or we are going to lose this beautiful breed forever. Please donate to cancer research.
http://www.modianolab.org/cancer/cancer_hemangiosarcoma.shtml


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## Nath

Claire's Friend said:


> Mondiano.lab, is I believe, the leading Hemangiosarcoma research center. They state "it is important to understand that “_cancer is a genetic disease, although it is not always heritable_.” . Reading through their information, it seems they are very close to identifying a Hemangiosarcoma gene or cell. Not that this would help cure Hemangio, but at least carriers of the gene could be eliminated from the breeding pool.
> I HATE this disease, it has taken not only my own dogs, but over 50% of the dogs I have placed through my rescue. We have to do something or we are going to lose this beautiful breed forever. Please donate to cancer research.
> Modiano Lab - Cancer Info - Hemangiosarcoma


Best post of the night! Please donate, even just a little bit helps.


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## hvgoldens4

Mondiano.lab, is I believe, the leading Hemangiosarcoma research center. They state "it is important to understand that “_cancer is a genetic disease, although it is not always heritable_.” . Reading through their information, it seems they are very close to identifying a Hemangiosarcoma gene or cell. Not that this would help cure Hemangio, but at least carriers of the gene could be eliminated from the breeding pool. 
I HATE this disease, it has taken not only my own dogs, but over 50% of the dogs I have placed through my rescue. We have to do something or we are going to lose this beautiful breed forever. Please donate to cancer research.
http://www.modianolab.org/cancer/can...osarcoma.shtml 

There are many labs that are doing research into cancer. The important thing is to donate your dogs blood!! The Broad Institute is doing a lot of research into cancer. They were looking for blood from older dogs who have been cancer free and people did NOT donate!! Please stay abreast of the studies going on and you can also donate to the repository. We did donate our "family" of goldens blood to the Broad Institute. What they are doing in a nut shell is comparing healthy dogs over the age of 12 who have never had cancer to younger dogs who have cancer to see what is different.

Lymphoma and Hemangiosarcoma are certainly seen more in goldens. I do agree with the other posters though that the WDJ was VERY remiss in publishing the information stating that hemangio could be traced back to a single sire. If cancer were that simple, people wouldn't be dying from that dreaded disease every day. Cancer is genetic because it happens when they cells replicate and the chances that a cell will be malformed and not caught and disposed of by the immune system increase with age. However, they do not know that cancer is heritable meaning that it is passed from the parent to the offspring. There are many long lived dogs that have these dogs in their pedigrees, including my own. 

When checking pedigrees for cancer all you can do is try to stack the deck in your favor until there are more answers. Ask a breeder about a cause of death or an age of death. Try to have dogs over the age of 10 when they passed in the pedigrees. This is no guarantee because there are environmental factors involved as well.


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## Dallas Gold

cubbysan said:


> In the article that I attached earlier from the GRCA, one thought is that GR's have a higher percentage of dogs with autoimmune diseases ( allergies, thyroid issues ) possibly making it easier for them to come down with cancer.
> 
> *It would be interesting what percentage of dogs on this forum died of cancer before the age of ten also had allergies or thyroid issues, or any other autoimmune diseases.*
> 
> In humans, my aunt in law died of cancer a few years after a kidney transplant. When she went for the transplant, she was told the with the antirejection drugs, she would be more susceptible to cancer.
> 
> A friend of mine takes an arthritis drug that suppresses her immune system. She was told the same thing.


Gosh, I hope a diagnosis of allergies or thyroid disease doesn't predispose our Goldens to an eventual cancer diagnosis, especially if owners are proactive and manage these diseases well during the dog's life. I see allergies and thyroid disease as less risky, from a possible cancer diagnosis, than a dog or human taking anti-suppression drugs. There are many treatments for allergies and thyroid disease that do not suppress the immune system as much as something like a steroid for example.


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## AmberSunrise

hvgoldens4 said:


> There are many labs that are doing research into cancer. The important thing is to donate your dogs blood!! The Broad Institute is doing a lot of research into cancer. They were looking for blood from older dogs who have been cancer free and people did NOT donate!! Please stay abreast of the studies going on and you can also donate to the repository. We did donate our "family" of goldens blood to the Broad Institute. What they are doing in a nut shell is comparing healthy dogs over the age of 12 who have never had cancer to younger dogs who have cancer to see what is different.


Totally agree here. While I hold very strong opinions about cancer and how to feed, house and exercise our goldens (which I too will not share), I have donated DNA from Casey as an older dog, who is healthy at this point in his life. If I had had the opportunity to donate from my King & Rowdy, I would have also donated their DNA for studies. 

To my mind, these studies are of critical importance and I hope that the questionnaires that are filled out with the DNA samples will venture into politically incorrect territory (food, exercise, housing etc) as we try to find out what can help prevent these cancers. And I hope that the word will get out that the DNA data banks are looking for our help in donating DNA sampling that might well help protect our dogs future,


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## AmberSunrise

Dallas Gold said:


> Gosh, I hope a diagnosis of allergies or thyroid disease doesn't predispose our Goldens to an eventual cancer diagnosis, especially if owners are proactive and manage these diseases well during the dog's life. I see allergies and thyroid disease as less risky, from a possible cancer diagnosis, than a dog or human taking anti-suppression drugs. There are many treatments for allergies and thyroid disease that do not suppress the immune system as much as something like a steroid for example.


In my admittedly limited experience, thyroid disease does not lead to early cancer - I have had 3 dogs with thyroid disease

King: Died at 14.5 of liver cancer but this is not an early death, too soon but not what I would consider an early death (edit: King also had a splenectomy at 7-benign tumor)

Rowdy: Died at 12.5 of aspiration pneumonia following LP tie-back surgery - he had no signs of cancer 

Casey: Currently 10 and still running and playing daily


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## Dallas Gold

Sunrise said:


> In my admittedly limited experience, thyroid disease does not lead to early cancer - I have had 3 dogs with thyroid disease
> 
> King: Died at 14.5 of liver cancer but this is not an early death, too soon but not what I would consider an early death
> 
> Rowdy: Died at 12.5 of aspiration pneumonia following LP tie-back surgery - he had no signs of cancer
> 
> Casey: Currently 10 and still running and playing daily


That's been my experience as well--2 hypothyroid and allergy dogs, both diagnosed with hemangiosarcoma. One was diagnosed at 13 1/2 years of age and the other at 12 years 9 months. 

The beauty of the DNA databank is when you submit a sample you also submit a health history so researchers can track these things and make better assessments of risks that might predispose a dog to a cancer. That's why it's important for dog owners to participate both with healthy dogs and with dogs getting the cancer diagnosis.

I think Barb posted a thread a few months ago about a genetic link between a certain line of goldens diagnosed with early lymphoma.


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## PrincessDi

It would be interesting what percentage of dogs on this forum died of cancer before the age of ten also had allergies or thyroid issues, or any other *autoimmune diseases.*

[/QUOTE]

This is very interesting. Di had never had any health issues. Never even had a hotspot. In January she started getting what we thought were hotspots. I had her to our vet on this issue 3 times. I went out of town to visit my Mom and when I came back it was all over her. I told our vet that I needed to be referred to a Dermatologist. They took cultures and biopsies and the Dermatologist felt that it was an auto immune disease. He said that it looked like her immune system had started kicking in because the areas were starting to heal. He said that with some dogs, they would never have the problem again. This was around mid March. She was diagnosed with hemangiosarcoma just after 5/10. Probably around 5/18, I noticed the leasions were starting to reappear. 

I had called the dermatologist on my way up to see the Oncologist and asked him to send her records to the Oncologist. He felt that the skin issue was unrelated to the hemangiosarcoma. I feel that given that Di had never had any kind of health issues during her 11 1/2 years, it was odd that the 2 things occured during such a short period of time.


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## solinvictus

My Sunny had his first hot spot at 8 years old. At 8 1/2 he was diagnosed with fibrosarcoma. He had surgery (clean margins) vet very hopeful. During that next year he had hot spots on and off. At the year mark we got a all clear at the vet visit with blood test all good. He was dead in 3 weeks from hemangio. Died at 9 1/2 years.

The golden I have now is 2 1/2 years has had some minor (enviromental) allergy problems since 5 months old and every so often has had a hot spot.

I do think that hot spots can be an indicator that something is off with our dogs. But I don't see it as an indicator that the dog will have cancer.


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## Sally's Mom

My 2 goldens who died from hemangio never had skin issues. The one who dies at 12 1/2 years had an extrameduallary plasmacytoma removed (with part of her jaw) at 7 years. The other one was perfectly healthy until she died from hemangio at almost 12.


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## my4goldens

My Tess never had a hot spot, never had allergies, never went to the vet in her 11 years for anything other than regular checkups. Perfectly healthy until she lost her appetite the first week of April, died from hemangio April 20.


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## iansgran

While all cancers are terrible, when this one usually takes older dogs I guess it is not as bad as some of the others. No long suffering, at least.


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## hvgoldens4

Dallas Gold said:


> Gosh, I hope a diagnosis of allergies or thyroid disease doesn't predispose our Goldens to an eventual cancer diagnosis, especially if owners are proactive and manage these diseases well during the dog's life. I see allergies and thyroid disease as less risky, from a possible cancer diagnosis, than a dog or human taking anti-suppression drugs. There are many treatments for allergies and thyroid disease that do not suppress the immune system as much as something like a steroid for example.


 
Whoa.....again, we need to back up the bus-it just isn't that simple. Someone taking antirejection drugs from a transplant is not in the same boat as a hypothyroid dog. Yes, hypothyroidism is considered an autoimmune problem but so it arthritis and a whole host of other issues that are part of the aging process. Someone taking anti-rejection drugs is taking meds that are SUPPOSED to shut off the bodies immune system so they do not reject the "foreign body", ie the organ that was transplanted. Autoimmune problems are the number one problem diagnosed in dogs-ALL DOGS-period. So, this is not a golden retriever issue. There are a whole host of problems that are auto-immune problems. Years ago, we had a golden(who was never part of our breeding program) who was diagnosed with degenerative myelopathy at 6 years old. Certainly an auto-immune problem and a major one. He was also mildly dysplastic, got hot spots and had a whole host of other issues. He lived just shy of his 12th birthday. I don't consider that an early death because of an auto-immune problem.

As another poster pointed out, there is a point in time that dogs WILL DIE of something and most often that is cancer because as the body ages, the risk of the body replicating cells improperly increases. It is not the same when a dog dies at 13 from cancer as it is when the dog is 6.

It is great to discuss these things as I think it has pointed out the importance of donating blood, etc. However, we are not going to come up with an answer as to why goldens get cancer on this message board. The experts have been working on this for years in dogs and people and unfortunately, there are no easy answers.


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## IowaGold

Ian'sgran said:


> While all cancers are terrible, when this one usually takes older dogs I guess it is not as bad as some of the others. No long suffering, at least.


I'm coming in late to this discussion and I'm sure my next statements are going to upset some people. I have a 13 1/2 year old dog. He is "healthy" but at 13 1/2, he has some fairly signicant orthropedic problems. He can get around (walk, climb the stairs, etc.), but for the most part he spends most of his day laying around. I really can't imagine him being comfortable for much longer and can not wish upon him living until he can't move. When his time comes, I *hope* for hemangio. It's fast, it's pretty painless, and, for me, especially in an old dog, it's a "no-brainer". While no one wants their dog to die, the fact is, they have to die of something. Maybe my experiences as a vet have colored my perspective, but there are much, much worse things to die of. 

I agree that dogs dying young of cancer are a tragedy. What's the definition of "early" cancer?? How old is "old enough"? Ten, twelve, older??? If we eliminate cancer (and I can't envision a time when this will happen), what's left for our dogs? Kidney or liver disease-where the dog stops eliminating wastes/toxins from the blood so they feel horrible? Larengeal paralysis where they can't breathe and the only treatment is tying back the larengeal fold(s), so the dog is prone to pneumonia? No matter how we feel, our dogs can not/will not live forever. Is it harder to lose a dog at ten or twelve than it is to lose a dog a fourteen?

Don't get me wrong. Send in samples from your dogs. I think it's the responible thing to do. It would be fantastic to find a genetic link to early cancer. I would love to see young dogs (and people) not get cancer. I just don't think it's reasonable to think that ALL cancer can be/will be eliminated.

OK, back to my hole now.


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## DaisyGolden

My Daisy never had a hotspot or an allergy. The only thing that she ever went to the vet for before her hemangio was when she had a seizure due to low blood sugar but feeding her small meals more often fixed that and she never had another seizure. She only saw the vet for check ups. She was really healthy right till the end.


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## Dallas Gold

hvgoldens4 said:


> Whoa.....again, we need to back up the bus-it just isn't that simple. Someone taking antirejection drugs from a transplant is not in the same boat as a hypothyroid dog. Yes, hypothyroidism is considered an autoimmune problem but so it arthritis and a whole host of other issues that are part of the aging process. Someone taking anti-rejection drugs is taking meds that are SUPPOSED to shut off the bodies immune system so they do not reject the "foreign body", ie the organ that was transplanted. Autoimmune problems are the number one problem diagnosed in dogs-ALL DOGS-period. So, this is not a golden retriever issue. There are a whole host of problems that are auto-immune problems. Years ago, we had a golden(who was never part of our breeding program) who was diagnosed with degenerative myelopathy at 6 years old. Certainly an auto-immune problem and a major one. He was also mildly dysplastic, got hot spots and had a whole host of other issues. He lived just shy of his 12th birthday. I don't consider that an early death because of an auto-immune problem.
> 
> As another poster pointed out, there is a point in time that dogs WILL DIE of something and most often that is cancer because as the body ages, the risk of the body replicating cells improperly increases. It is not the same when a dog dies at 13 from cancer as it is when the dog is 6.
> 
> It is great to discuss these things as I think it has pointed out the importance of donating blood, etc. However, we are not going to come up with an answer as to why goldens get cancer on this message board. The experts have been working on this for years in dogs and people and unfortunately, there are no easy answers.


Hey, I agree with you. Another poster equated dogs with hypothyroid and allergies as a possible precursor to cancer and I totally disagree with that point! I was simply stating my disagreement without coming out and saying I disagree with you!


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## AmberSunrise

IowaGold said:


> I'm coming in late to this discussion and I'm sure my next statements are going to upset some people. I have a 13 1/2 year old dog. He is "healthy" but at 13 1/2, he has some fairly signicant orthropedic problems. He can get around (walk, climb the stairs, etc.), but for the most part he spends most of his day laying around. I really can't imagine him being comfortable for much longer and can not wish upon him living until he can't move. When his time comes, I *hope* for hemangio. It's fast, it's pretty painless, and, for me, especially in an old dog, it's a "no-brainer". While no one wants their dog to die, the fact is, they have to die of something. Maybe my experiences as a vet have colored my perspective, but there are much, much worse things to die of.
> 
> I agree that dogs dying young of cancer are a tragedy. What's the definition of "early" cancer?? How old is "old enough"? Ten, twelve, older??? If we eliminate cancer (and I can't envision a time when this will happen), what's left for our dogs? Kidney or liver disease-where the dog stops eliminating wastes/toxins from the blood so they feel horrible? Larengeal paralysis where they can't breathe and the only treatment is tying back the larengeal fold(s), so the dog is prone to pneumonia? No matter how we feel, our dogs can not/will not live forever. Is it harder to lose a dog at ten or twelve than it is to lose a dog a fourteen?
> 
> Don't get me wrong. Send in samples from your dogs. I think it's the responible thing to do. It would be fantastic to find a genetic link to early cancer. I would love to see young dogs (and people) not get cancer. I just don't think it's reasonable to think that ALL cancer can be/will be eliminated.
> 
> OK, back to my hole now.


I actually agree with you  My King died of liver cancer (type unknown) but was hiking the day before he collapsed. He went into surgery the following day and was not allowed to wake up.

My Rowdy died of aspiration pneumonia following tie back surgery - this was a horrible way to die; he had 3 oxygen tubes and all kinds of stuff attached trying to buy him enough time to see if the antibiotics could help - I finally gave a DNR order and was there when it was honored. The sudden silence of his heart monitor is forever engraved on my heart as I waved away the staff. I prefer the way my King died.

I have 2 dogs currently with their DNA on record. I do hope we can find the contributing factors. But our older dogs will die of something. We can try to prevent the youngsters from getting these horrid cancers though and we should try.


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## Dallas Gold

Ian'sgran said:


> While all cancers are terrible, when this one usually takes older dogs I guess it is not as bad as some of the others. No long suffering, at least.


That's true. When Barkley was diagnosed our vet was careful to point out that hemangio dogs usually don't suffer any pain until the very end. I think it's a cruel diagnosis for the owner to handle emotionally. While any cancer diagnosis sends an owner in a tailspin, it's the sudden collapse and bleed out when the owner never knew there was a problem that I fear the most. That scenerio would be so cruel and unforgiving. I've been "fortunate" in the sense we got extra time to prepare for saying good-bye. In the other case we had a suspected diagnosis and lost him on the surgical table when the surgeon told us it was too far advanced to try to save him. Both were horrible to process in their own way. It's the sudden and unexpected loss of hemangio that frightens so many of us.


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## DaisyGolden

IowaGold said:


> I'm coming in late to this discussion and I'm sure my next statements are going to upset some people. I have a 13 1/2 year old dog. He is "healthy" but at 13 1/2, he has some fairly signicant orthropedic problems. He can get around (walk, climb the stairs, etc.), but for the most part he spends most of his day laying around. I really can't imagine him being comfortable for much longer and can not wish upon him living until he can't move. When his time comes, I *hope* for hemangio. It's fast, it's pretty painless, and, for me, especially in an old dog, it's a "no-brainer". While no one wants their dog to die, the fact is, they have to die of something. Maybe my experiences as a vet have colored my perspective, but there are much, much worse things to die of.
> 
> I agree that dogs dying young of cancer are a tragedy. What's the definition of "early" cancer?? How old is "old enough"? Ten, twelve, older??? If we eliminate cancer (and I can't envision a time when this will happen), what's left for our dogs? Kidney or liver disease-where the dog stops eliminating wastes/toxins from the blood so they feel horrible? Larengeal paralysis where they can't breathe and the only treatment is tying back the larengeal fold(s), so the dog is prone to pneumonia? No matter how we feel, our dogs can not/will not live forever. Is it harder to lose a dog at ten or twelve than it is to lose a dog a fourteen?
> 
> Don't get me wrong. Send in samples from your dogs. I think it's the responible thing to do. It would be fantastic to find a genetic link to early cancer. I would love to see young dogs (and people) not get cancer. I just don't think it's reasonable to think that ALL cancer can be/will be eliminated.
> 
> OK, back to my hole now.


You hope for hemangio? I'm sure that you mean well but maybe you don't understand what can happen with hemangio. My Daisy died from hemangio but she didn't just have a tumor inside her that burst it spread to make a large lump on her hip that at the time we thought was the only tumor she had and we were going to have it removed. The night before her surgery to remove it it started bleeding like crazy and I mean more blood than you can imagine all over her and the floor it was everywhere. We called the emergency vet and they said to bring her in and as we were getting ready she started throwing up large amounts of blood. I watched my poor baby bleeding to death in the back of our suv for the 25 minutes it took us to get to the vet. When we got there they took a new xray and said they couldn't do the surgery because the tumor had spread all down her leg and it would be impossible to remove. The vet also thought that a tumour inside her must have burst because she was throwing up blood. We put her to sleep. I wouldn't wish going through this on anyone. If I have an older dog that has health problems that are making its life hard I would have it put to sleep and that would be a painless and calm way to go which hemangio is not.


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## IowaGold

Dallas Gold said:


> It's the sudden and unexpected loss of hemangio that frightens so many of us.


You know, for me, it's the sudden and unexpected that I hope for. I am terrified to know weeks in advance. For me, it would be harder to watch and wait. Every little thing the dog does would send me thinking-is "this" it or maybe "that". Yes, you get a chance to "say goodbye". I'd rather spend each day loving the dog and not living in fear.

My biggest fear is having to make the decision to put one of my dogs down for an orthopedic problem. Those dogs are almost always "there" mentally, eating/drinking, and often are even somewhat comfortable as long as they don't try to move. I was within 2 days of doing that with Sage this winter (we had the day all planned out), then he got better. That only fuels my fear. He got better last time, what if he were going to get better the next time if I gave it a couple more days??


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## IowaGold

DaisyGolden said:


> You hope for hemangio? I'm sure that you mean well but maybe you don't understand what can happen with hemangio.


I'm a vet. I know what happens with hemangio. Your experience is not typical of hemangio. I've put to sleep numerous dogs with hemangio. I just put a cute little mix to sleep yesterday with hemangio. In my experience, yes, I hope for hemangio. There are much, much worse ways to go.


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## Dallas Gold

IowaGold said:


> You know, for me, it's the sudden and unexpected that I hope for. I am terrified to know weeks in advance. For me, it would be harder to watch and wait. Every little thing the dog does would send me thinking-is "this" it or maybe "that". Yes, you get a chance to "say goodbye". I'd rather spend each day loving the dog and not living in fear.
> 
> My biggest fear is having to make the decision to put one of my dogs down for an orthopedic problem. Those dogs are almost always "there" mentally, eating/drinking, and often are even somewhat comfortable as long as they don't try to move. I was within 2 days of doing that with Sage this winter (we had the day all planned out), then he got better. That only fuels my fear. He got better last time, what if he were going to get better the next time if I gave it a couple more days??


Thanks for a different perspective. 

I found our extra time with Barkley was just what we needed. Instead of dreading each day, we made sure to make every day special in some way for him and I am just so grateful we were blessed with each one.

I also think considering putting a dog down for orthopedic issues is an emotional rollercoaster.


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## Rob's GRs

My first Golden Lyndi also had hemangio at 8 years old. She had such difficulty in breathing that came on fairly quickly that when I took her in and found she had fluids in the chest and a large tumor on the heart there was nothing that could be done. I too hope I never have to have a dog with a long drawn out disease that I have to watch each day for them to slowly slip away. However the rapid onset of hemangio was still not an easy thing to deal with either. I can only hope someday they do find the cause of this.


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## iansgran

My Subiaco died of osteosarcoma a little over a year ago. He was diagnosed in early January and we put him down May 3, 2010. For most of those months he was himself, with a big lump on his hock and a big limp and lots of pain meds. I was a mess. What if he can't stand or walk, how will I get him to the vet (he was a 100 guy)? How much pain is he in? He mostly just slept and ate but he was 11. Was this because he was sick or old? When will I know it is time? As I said, I was a mess.


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## cubbysan

Dallas Gold said:


> Hey, I agree with you. Another poster equated dogs with hypothyroid and allergies as a possible precursor to cancer and I totally disagree with that point! I was simply stating my disagreement without coming out and saying I disagree with you!


That was me, and it was based on the article that I posted the link to from grca written by Rhonda Hoven called "Understanding Cancer in Golden Retrievers". Please read it, it is very long but has some very good points. 

http://www.grca.org/pdf/health/cancer.pdf
 
The next piece of the cancer genetics puzzle in Goldens is that
our breed is also at increased risk for several immune-mediated diseases
such as allergies and hypothyroidism. In fact, the number one
reason for Goldens to be taken to the vet is various manifestations of
allergy and atopy, which includes frequent hot spots, food allergies,
goopy ears (that’s a medical term), orange toes, etc. And it turns out
that these diseases are also found at higher than average rates in
Goldens around the world. This is relevant to our discussion of cancer
because the immune system plays an important role in destroying
abnormal cells before they have a chance to cause a clinical
cancer, and a compromised immune system often leads to cancer.
Therefore, some have expanded the Founder Dog Theory to include
that founder dogs also carried genes that have led to widespread
immune system dysfunction in the breed, which contributes to our​dogs’ risk for cancer.
 
Another thought that I have read before:

Is it possible that we could ever face similar choices in Goldens?
Could some part of “what it means to be a Golden” be linked
with the risk of cancer? Unfortunately, this is a very real possibility.
Remember the theories presented above that deleterious genes
from early founder dogs have concentrated over time, to the point
now where it has resulted in an elevated risk of cancer and a compromised
immune system? So what makes genes concentrate like
that? Well, with every generation that goes by, breeders are constantly
selecting desirable genes to keep in the gene pool, and less
desirable genes to reduce or eliminate. So in essence, the gene
pool is always under selection pressure to shrink, and as a closed
gene pool, it can never get larger. And one of the reasons that we
may have inadvertently kept and concentrated genes associated
with cancer risk and immune dysfunction is that those genes may
very well be linked to genes that we have selected as part of what
it means to be a Golden.​Here’s a possible hypothetical example. While there is no


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## DaisyGolden

IowaGold said:


> I'm a vet. I know what happens with hemangio. Your experience is not typical of hemangio. I've put to sleep numerous dogs with hemangio. I just put a cute little mix to sleep yesterday with hemangio. In my experience, yes, I hope for hemangio. There are much, much worse ways to go.


I know that Daisy didn't have a typical case of hemangio and I know that alot of dogs either just pass out and die because of bleeding inside or their owners put them to sleep. I also know there are worse ways to go but I would hope that my dog would get to old age and not have to go through having any kind of cancer. If I had to make the decision when to let them go I will handle that. I have lost dogs to liver failure, cancer, sudden heart attack and a stroke. I had a german shepard mix named Muffy who was almost 15 and she got to a point that she couldn't get around well and do what she wanted so we made the decision to let her go. She had never been sick a day in her life and I didn't want her to get to a point of being in pain. That is what i hope for for all my dogs. I hope someone someday comes up with a way to keep anyone dog or human from getting cancer and if my dogs have to die of something else so be it. I probably shouldn't have said anything because I hate cancer so much that i might be biased but I took care of my mom as she died of cancer for almost five years so that is where my anger comes from. You of course are allowed to have any opinion and I didn't mean to make it seem that I think you don't know what you're talking about because of course you do. It's just that watching your beloved dog throw up blood even if it doesn't happen in most cases is the last thing anyone should ever have to see.


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## FinnTastic

My husband is a cancer researcher. I asked him about this and he said he isn't a canine cancer researcher or an expert in any stretch of the imagination, but he did say there could be a genetic predisposition for cancer like there is for breast cancer. Of course, he also said that there are many factors that can cause cancer and every type is different from the other. I guess the best thing we can do is assist those who are trying to find an end to this disease any way we can.


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## FinnTastic

Is it possible that we could ever face similar choices in Goldens?
Could some part of “what it means to be a Golden” be linked
with the risk of cancer? Unfortunately, this is a very real possibility.
Remember the theories presented above that deleterious genes
from early founder dogs have concentrated over time, to the point
now where it has resulted in an elevated risk of cancer and a compromised
immune system? So what makes genes concentrate like
that? Well, with every generation that goes by, breeders are constantly
selecting desirable genes to keep in the gene pool, and less
desirable genes to reduce or eliminate. So in essence, the gene
pool is always under selection pressure to shrink, and as a closed
gene pool, it can never get larger. And one of the reasons that we
may have inadvertently kept and concentrated genes associated
with cancer risk and immune dysfunction is that those genes may
very well be linked to genes that we have selected as part of what
it means to be a Golden.[/LEFT]
My husband also said something to this to me as well. Again, he said there are a lot of other factors that can play a role as well and he isn't a canine researcher.


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## Megora

We lost our first golden to kidney disease / renal failure. This was probably hereditary since his father and a couple littermates died of the same thing and around the same young age. To me, that was the most horrible experience that any dog owner should ever have to go through. It was extremely painful for him... and for us.

I don't think anyone is belittling cancer. It's painful no matter how old your dog is and even knowing your dog did not suffer for longer than possibly a couple hours, if that. We lost two old dogs to cancer, and only one of those dogs suffered a rupture. We thankfully recognized the symptoms early enough so Danny did not have to suffer the same as his brother did in the end. And that's one thing I have to say to people going through this with their old dogs - please know your dogs and do everything you can so that they suffer as little as possible at the end.


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## Katie and Paddy's Mum

This is a fascinating thread, thank you! I too got my WDJ yesterday and saw the article Susan Marie referenced. My first thought was that it was pretty irresponsible to attribute the prevalence of cancer in golden retrievers back to one sire.

I am absolutely terrified of cancer. I lost my first golden, Bear to a brain tumour a little more than 5 years ago. It was the most heart breaking time of my entire life. Everything I do today for both my dog Katie and my parents' dog, Paddy is all aimed at minimizing their risk of cancer. 

I thank people that are contributing to this thread, as I am learning of more ways in which I can help and not sit idly by on the sidelines! I think some of the intiatives you have all spoken of, like donating tissue, blood, DNA, money - whatever, help us to feel empowered in the face of something so terrifying!

This is an interesting/informative discussion for me!

Kim


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## Dallas Gold

Ian'sgran said:


> My Subiaco died of osteosarcoma a little over a year ago. He was diagnosed in early January and we put him down May 3, 2010. For most of those months he was himself, with a big lump on his hock and a big limp and lots of pain meds. I was a mess. What if he can't stand or walk, how will I get him to the vet (he was a 100 guy)? How much pain is he in? He mostly just slept and ate but he was 11. Was this because he was sick or old? When will I know it is time? As I said, I was a mess.


We were dealing with cancer in our dogs at the exact same time in 2010. In our case Barkley was his old self almost immediately after the splenectomy and he constantly challenged us to do more activity wise before we felt he was ready. He was back to walking and his normal every day activities within 10 days. Once the spleen was out and biopsy was hemangiosarcoma I actually paid for a one on one consult with his vet and spent over an hour going over every detail about doing chemotherapy vs pallative care. Euthanasia was not recommended for him those first few days. His vet told me exactly what to look for along the way. He knew Quality of Life was our biggest concern and he promised to help us recognize any decreases in it as soon as possible. Barkley was monitored closely throughout that time. The help and support from all the veterinarians we consulted gave us comfort and strength to just take each day at a time and make the most of them for however long we got. There were many days when we forgot he had a terminal diagnosis. Serendipity.

From reading everyone else's experiences in these posts our experience with Barkley definitely isn't the norm. We were truly blessed that he had so many good days and we were able to enjoy those days with him.


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## Sally's Mom

I had a beagle that I rescued in vet school that lived to be 17. Along with that came incontinence and quite honestly inconvenience. I "joke" that my 2 goldens who died due to hemangio had the grace to never become inconvenient... I was never in that place of still loving them, but finding their management difficult like I found the beagle. My second one had the splenic rupture... I had to make a decision too soon for me, but I had to do what was in her best interest.


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## goldensrbest

Cancer sucks, human, and animal, but if it wasn't cancer, it would be something else.


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## tippykayak

This is probably a good time to mention that despite their reputation for cancer, Goldens have a life expectancy that's roughly comparable to other dogs their size. So it seems that they don't get _early_ cancers at significantly higher rates than other breeds. Many Goldens get cancer because they don't die from something else earlier.


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## goldensrbest

I do beleive that, we just don't want to lose them, no matter what, i wanted spencer to live, to be 14, or older, i lost him, at 12 yrs., 5 months, no matter how long he lived, i would had lost him too soon.


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## PrincessDi

*Have been following this thread closely.....*

and want to thank Claire's friend for starting it. I know she started it with good intentions to share information. I'm going to have to stop reading it now.

I can't believe that I am on a forum that is based on a love of a breed with a golden heart, we now we have folks that are actually posting that it would be great to loose one to hemangiosarcoma!! Several of us lost a golden very recently to the disease. What is wrong with this picture?


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## Megora

> I can't believe that I am on a forum that is based on a love of a breed with a golden heart, we now we have folks that are actually posting that it would be great to loose one to hemangiosarcoma!! Several of us lost a golden very recently to the disease. What is wrong with this picture?


I don't think anyone is saying it would be "great" to lose a dog to hemangiosarcoma...


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## IowaGold

I simply choose to be realistic. I know that I am going to lose my dogs someday. I have seen a lot of dogs sicken and die. I am simply stating that, from what I have seen, there are worse ways to die and hope that when my dogs' times come they are lucky enough to go quickly and with little pain. I also deal daily with people who can't or won't face the fact that their dog is dying or will die soon. I feel sorry for those people.


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## goldensrbest

Please, nothing great about cancer, i hope you don't think ,i think that, it would be wrong, we just don't want to lose them to anything, same goes for humans, of course, , it really hurts to lose those we love, from anything.


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## paula bedard

I have followed this thread with worry and hope. I lost Sam to a mega-esophagus at 12.5. Xrays revealed a huge tumor near his heart and the ER Vet suspected it was hemangio. He had been perfect 2 days prior. Did the tumor press on the esophagus and cause the ME? They couldn't be sure as he also had a partially paralyzed throat and a neuro condition that weakened his back end. Maybe both contributed. I am thankful though, that Sam did not suffer a prolonged illness. I did not have time to ready myself for his passing, but he did not suffer. 

When I took Sam as a pup to the Vet's office for his first visit, a tech there who was also a Golden Breeder said to me, 'Every day past 8 years is a gift.' This was in 1994. I never forgot that and I dreaded the day he turned 8. I feel fortunate that I had him for 12.5 years....and I pray that Ike will be the world's longest lived Golden. Not too much to pray for.


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## tippykayak

PrincessDi said:


> I can't believe that I am on a forum that is based on a love of a breed with a golden heart, we now we have folks that are actually posting that it would be great to loose one to hemangiosarcoma!! Several of us lost a golden very recently to the disease. What is wrong with this picture?


I can't speak for other posters, but I think the idea is that it is better to lose a dog quickly to hemangiosarcoma than to lose him slowly to some of the other geriatric diseases that are more painful and traumatic for the dog.

Of course, nobody is saying hemangio is good. Just that it's better when it's his time, a dog goes quickly and quietly with a minimum of suffering.


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## paula bedard

On the human side of cancer, my father's family could be a case study in heredity. Both of my grandparents died of old age yet their children, those who survived accidents, each has had cancer. Two Aunts died of breast cancer, my father and his younger brother both had prostate cancer, my uncle just passed away from his cancer. A third brother was just diagnosed with cancer in his spine. 

The half siblings from my Grandfather's first marriage (wife passed in childbirth) all lived into old age and died from old age, heart attack, and stroke. 

So far, none of the children/cousins on my father's side of the family have been stricken with cancer, but we all worry.


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## Nath

IowaGold said:


> You know, for me, it's the sudden and unexpected that I hope for. I am terrified to know weeks in advance. For me, it would be harder to watch and wait. Every little thing the dog does would send me thinking-is "this" it or maybe "that". Yes, you get a chance to "say goodbye". I'd rather spend each day loving the dog and not living in fear.
> 
> My biggest fear is having to make the decision to put one of my dogs down for an orthopedic problem. Those dogs are almost always "there" mentally, eating/drinking, and often are even somewhat comfortable as long as they don't try to move. I was within 2 days of doing that with Sage this winter (we had the day all planned out), then he got better. That only fuels my fear. He got better last time, what if he were going to get better the next time if I gave it a couple more days??


I understand needed a bigger situation for you to make a hard decision, but this isn't the disease you would want to have upon them. They go through small bleeds teasing you of good quality time, a large bleed down for a day or two and then the death bleed (you are given no time to go to the vet). And it's not slow some can live over a month, but you have to dedicate your full life to them. Because a time bomb is inside their body. I was lucky that both my goldens died very quickly when the tumor hemorrhaged and the were in our bed with love. BUT it is not always the case and can be very ugly. Enjoy your time with them as they will let you know when it's time. It might not be as hard as you think then.


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## Nath

tippykayak said:


> This is probably a good time to mention that despite their reputation for cancer, Goldens have a life expectancy that's roughly comparable to other dogs their size. So it seems that they don't get _early_ cancers at significantly higher rates than other breeds. Many Goldens get cancer because they don't die from something else earlier.


We just had two Goldens die very young from Cancer Sophie just 3 and General just turned 7. I am starting to see it more and more in these forums. Sad because my first Golden lived to 14.


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## Nath

IowaGold said:


> I simply choose to be realistic. I know that I am going to lose my dogs someday. I have seen a lot of dogs sicken and die. I am simply stating that, from what I have seen, there are worse ways to die and hope that when my dogs' times come they are lucky enough to go quickly and with little pain. I also deal daily with people who can't or won't face the fact that their dog is dying or will die soon. I feel sorry for those people.


There are people on this thread who have just lost their Goldens a couple of weeks back to this cancer plus those who have lost the Goldens due to Hemangio that has been supporting the current mourning group. So we are a bit sensitive on your comment and not being sensitive to us. The thread was about a new article and possible solutions for the future for Hemangio. HOPE! 

Since you are a professional, I assume you understand why we're getting pretty upset. Perhaps, it might be better to start a new thread in the senior section about coping on letting go of your senior Golden and when it is time. 

Your post is a bit inappropriate for the many people on this thread. Please understand.


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## StorminNorman

I found this forum very interesting and sad. I am so sorry to hear of the many dogs so dear to your hearts dying of cancer. Discovering what truly causes cancer is certainly still a work in progress. I lost my 2 1/2 year old (Yes, you read that right...only 2 1/2) golden, Charlie, to cancer last July. He developed a lump on the side of his head between his ear and his jaw, about the size of a pea when we first noticed early in May. At first I thought it might be from a tick or a wound from a playful scraping with our cat, but it didn't go away. It grew quickly. After a biopsy at my local vet. we had a consultation with an oncologist at UW Madison (and I can't say enough good things about the doctors and their high level of professionalism, knowledge, and compassion.) He was diagnosed with a high grade spindle cell sarcoma. Prognosis was grim. Due to the location of the tumor, surgery wasn't an option. We opted for pain medication as needed and to let him enjoy the time he had left. By July we could see it had metastasized to his lungs (as predicted) and his breathing became labored. We knew then it was time to put him down. How did he get this cancer? We don't know. My vet said if I could answer that I would win the Nobel Prize. My dog's breeder, however, prefers to link it to environmental factors, blaming *me* for using lawn chemicals and algecides in my pool. They even questioned "and you let your kids swim in that?!" They pointed out that they do not use chemicals in their "pool," which is actually a pond. They also pointed out that at least 25 of the dogs they have sold over the years have died of cancers, but not once has one of their own on their property died. Is it solely environmental? I don't know, but I doubt it. I believe that it is a combination of factors, genetics included, that will take researchers years to figure out, if ever. One genetic link I found interesting from the author of this thread was the comment about Gold Rush's Teddy Bear. After reading that I checked my Charlie's pedigree online, and interestingly there was Teddy Bear several generations back. Now my intention is not to point any fingers and place any blame,or say "yep, it must be Teddy Bear's fault," I just found it interesting, and it confirms my belief that both environment and genetics play a role. My 10 month old, Norman, so far is healthy. I hope to get many happy years with him. And, yes, he will be swimming in my pool with my kids.


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## tippykayak

Nath said:


> We just had two Goldens die very young from Cancer Sophie just 3 and General just turned 7. I am starting to see it more and more in these forums. Sad because my first Golden lived to 14.


I lost a dog at 7 to cancer when I was a kid (probably hemangio, but heroic measures to diagnose and treat cancer were less common then) and a dog at 6 to lymphoma. Even so, I honestly don't believe we have any real evidence that GR life expectancy has shortened. We talk a lot more about cancer now because we have better tools for diagnosis and treatment, and we're frequently able to diagnose specific cancers because we have better tools and an increased willingness to pay to use them. So I think it often _feels_ like cancer has become a bigger part of their lives, but I'm not sure actual rates have changed much in the last twenty years.


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## paula bedard

In addition to what Tippy said, Is cancer is more prevelent today or just more noticed with today's communication technologies that allow Forums such as this where this discussion is taking place? 

As I stated in a prior post, I was told in 1994, by a Vet tech/Golden breeder, that each day past 8 years was a gift. I felt fortunate to have had Sam for 12.5 years after living with that comment in my ear for all those years.


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## Dallas Gold

paula bedard said:


> In addition to what Tippy said, Is cancer is more prevelent today or just more noticed with today's communication technologies that allow Forums such as this where this discussion is taking place?
> 
> As I stated in a prior post, I was told in 1994, by a Vet tech/Golden breeder, that each day past 8 years was a gift. I felt fortunate to have had Sam for 12.5 years after living with that comment in my ear for all those years.


My guess is it's always been in the breed, just not out in the open like it is today with the social media outlets. I'm more aware of it, after experiencing it twice, and coming onto this forum and reading about so many of us affected by it and also reading more about it through various websites. I had an internist tell me with my Beau that she could pretty much guarantee he had either hemangio or lymphoma when I took him in at age 12 for an evaluation. She went on to say I might as well put him down once she got the sonogram and labs back on him. Guess what? He didn't have either at the time and she ended up apologizing on her own, but her words stayed with me. I spoke with several other vets about it during the next year and all pretty much told me Goldens are known in the trade as Tumor Factories, but I didn't realize the extent until coming here and also volunteering for a rescue group and learning of more dogs being diagnosed with these cancers. 

In the future, every puppy we bring home will be held in our arms knowing one day we will face an emotional time saying goodbye to him/her from any number of causes, cancer being one of them. Whatever the cause the bottom line is it's hard to say goodbye to a big part of your heart. Knowing that day is coming makes me want to make each day special with my furry loved ones and appreciate our bond each and every moment.


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## tippykayak

I really want to reiterate that when a 12 year old Golden gets cancer, part of what has happened is that he has made it to 12 when cancer is going to be much more likely to show up. 

Other breeds may experience geriatric congestive heart failure, pneumonia, joint problems, incontinence problems, blood infections from dental problems, and a host of other issues that lead them to die or to be put down slightly younger on average. Their cancer potential may be just as high as a Golden's, but you don't see it in their numbers because they don't make it long enough on average.

What we don't have is good numbers on the non-geriatric cancer, but since Golden life expectancy is roughly similar to other dogs of the same size, those numbers can't be dramatically higher.


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## PrincessDi

StorminNorman said:


> I found this forum very interesting and sad. I am so sorry to hear of the many dogs so dear to your hearts dying of cancer. Discovering what truly causes cancer is certainly still a work in progress. I lost my 2 1/2 year old (Yes, you read that right...only 2 1/2) golden, Charlie, to cancer last July. He developed a lump on the side of his head between his ear and his jaw, about the size of a pea when we first noticed early in May. At first I thought it might be from a tick or a wound from a playful scraping with our cat, but it didn't go away. It grew quickly. After a biopsy at my local vet. we had a consultation with an oncologist at UW Madison (and I can't say enough good things about the doctors and their high level of professionalism, knowledge, and compassion.) He was diagnosed with a high grade spindle cell sarcoma. Prognosis was grim. Due to the location of the tumor, surgery wasn't an option. We opted for pain medication as needed and to let him enjoy the time he had left. By July we could see it had metastasized to his lungs (as predicted) and his breathing became labored. We knew then it was time to put him down. How did he get this cancer? We don't know. My vet said if I could answer that I would win the Nobel Prize. My dog's breeder, however, prefers to link it to environmental factors, blaming *me* for using lawn chemicals and algecides in my pool. They even questioned "and you let your kids swim in that?!" They pointed out that they do not use chemicals in their "pool," which is actually a pond. They also pointed out that at least 25 of the dogs they have sold over the years have died of cancers, but not once has one of their own on their property died. Is it solely environmental? I don't know, but I doubt it. I believe that it is a combination of factors, genetics included, that will take researchers years to figure out, if ever. One genetic link I found interesting from the author of this thread was the comment about Gold Rush's Teddy Bear. After reading that I checked my Charlie's pedigree online, and interestingly there was Teddy Bear several generations back. Now my intention is not to point any fingers and place any blame,or say "yep, it must be Teddy Bear's fault," I just found it interesting, and it confirms my belief that both environment and genetics play a role. My 10 month old, Norman, so far is healthy. I hope to get many happy years with him. And, yes, he will be swimming in my pool with my kids.


I'm so sorry that you lost your Charlie at such a VERY YOUNG age. Your breeders response was HEARTLESS, not to mention irresponsible, cruel and stupid that you would take his word!! Seems like for many breeders it's just about all of the money to be made. So sorry you had to go through this heartbreak!


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## PrincessDi

PrincessDi said:


> I'm so sorry that you lost your Charlie at such a VERY YOUNG age. Your breeders response was HEARTLESS, not to mention irresponsible, cruel and stupid that you would take his word!! Seems like for many breeders it's just about all of the money to be made. So sorry you had to go through this heartbreak!


You know in thinking about this a bit more. The breeder's response actually sounds alot like the cigaratte manufacturers reactions to why people get lung cancer in the 50's, 60's, 70's and even today. Unless under court order and even then, they refuse to believe they have any part in cancer.


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## Debles

StorminNorman said:


> I found this forum very interesting and sad. I am so sorry to hear of the many dogs so dear to your hearts dying of cancer. Discovering what truly causes cancer is certainly still a work in progress. I lost my 2 1/2 year old (Yes, you read that right...only 2 1/2) golden, Charlie, to cancer last July. He developed a lump on the side of his head between his ear and his jaw, about the size of a pea when we first noticed early in May. At first I thought it might be from a tick or a wound from a playful scraping with our cat, but it didn't go away. It grew quickly. After a biopsy at my local vet. we had a consultation with an oncologist at UW Madison (and I can't say enough good things about the doctors and their high level of professionalism, knowledge, and compassion.) He was diagnosed with a high grade spindle cell sarcoma. Prognosis was grim. Due to the location of the tumor, surgery wasn't an option. We opted for pain medication as needed and to let him enjoy the time he had left. By July we could see it had metastasized to his lungs (as predicted) and his breathing became labored. We knew then it was time to put him down. How did he get this cancer? We don't know. My vet said if I could answer that I would win the Nobel Prize. My dog's breeder, however, prefers to link it to environmental factors, blaming *me* for using lawn chemicals and algecides in my pool. They even questioned "and you let your kids swim in that?!" They pointed out that they do not use chemicals in their "pool," which is actually a pond. They also pointed out that at least 25 of the dogs they have sold over the years have died of cancers, but not once has one of their own on their property died. Is it solely environmental? I don't know, but I doubt it. I believe that it is a combination of factors, genetics included, that will take researchers years to figure out, if ever. One genetic link I found interesting from the author of this thread was the comment about Gold Rush's Teddy Bear. After reading that I checked my Charlie's pedigree online, and interestingly there was Teddy Bear several generations back. Now my intention is not to point any fingers and place any blame,or say "yep, it must be Teddy Bear's fault," I just found it interesting, and it confirms my belief that both environment and genetics play a role. My 10 month old, Norman, so far is healthy. I hope to get many happy years with him. And, yes, he will be swimming in my pool with my kids.


25 pups with cancer from their breeding and they are blaming it on environment only? They are in denial!
I know 60% of goldens get cancer but that cannot be environment only.
I am so sorry for your loss.


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## AmberSunrise

StorminNorman said:


> I found this forum very interesting and sad. I am so sorry to hear of the many dogs so dear to your hearts dying of cancer. Discovering what truly causes cancer is certainly still a work in progress. I lost my 2 1/2 year old (Yes, you read that right...only 2 1/2) golden, Charlie, to cancer last July. He developed a lump on the side of his head between his ear and his jaw, about the size of a pea when we first noticed early in May. At first I thought it might be from a tick or a wound from a playful scraping with our cat, but it didn't go away. It grew quickly. After a biopsy at my local vet. we had a consultation with an oncologist at UW Madison (and I can't say enough good things about the doctors and their high level of professionalism, knowledge, and compassion.) He was diagnosed with a high grade spindle cell sarcoma. Prognosis was grim. Due to the location of the tumor, surgery wasn't an option. We opted for pain medication as needed and to let him enjoy the time he had left. By July we could see it had metastasized to his lungs (as predicted) and his breathing became labored. We knew then it was time to put him down. How did he get this cancer? We don't know. My vet said if I could answer that I would win the Nobel Prize. My dog's breeder, however, prefers to link it to environmental factors, blaming *me* for using lawn chemicals and algecides in my pool. They even questioned "and you let your kids swim in that?!" They pointed out that they do not use chemicals in their "pool," which is actually a pond. They also pointed out that at least 25 of the dogs they have sold over the years have died of cancers, but not once has one of their own on their property died. Is it solely environmental? I don't know, but I doubt it. I believe that it is a combination of factors, genetics included, that will take researchers years to figure out, if ever. One genetic link I found interesting from the author of this thread was the comment about Gold Rush's Teddy Bear. After reading that I checked my Charlie's pedigree online, and interestingly there was Teddy Bear several generations back. Now my intention is not to point any fingers and place any blame,or say "yep, it must be Teddy Bear's fault," I just found it interesting, and it confirms my belief that both environment and genetics play a role. My 10 month old, Norman, so far is healthy. I hope to get many happy years with him. And, yes, he will be swimming in my pool with my kids.


I am so sorry for your loss.


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## Nath

tippykayak said:


> I lost a dog at 7 to cancer when I was a kid (probably hemangio, but heroic measures to diagnose and treat cancer were less common then) and a dog at 6 to lymphoma. Even so, I honestly don't believe we have any real evidence that GR life expectancy has shortened. We talk a lot more about cancer now because we have better tools for diagnosis and treatment, and we're frequently able to diagnose specific cancers because we have better tools and an increased willingness to pay to use them. So I think it often _feels_ like cancer has become a bigger part of their lives, but I'm not sure actual rates have changed much in the last twenty years.


I also lost my female who was almost 10 to the same disease 4 weeks before General had passed away. Found out my neighbors Golden who was 8 died of the same disease 3 months ago. So no matter what age these guys get this particular cancer is extremely common which is why this research is important. We decided to get two new babies which I would love for them to have a fighting chance with any cancer should this happen again. However, I would prefer not to go through it again. We are taking precautions on our end knowing this is not a guarantee.


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## tippykayak

Nath said:


> I also lost my female who was almost 10 to the same disease 4 weeks before General had passed away. Found out my neighbors Golden who was 8 died of the same disease 3 months ago. So no matter what age these guys get this particular cancer is extremely common which is why this research is important. We decided to get two new babies which I would love for them to have a fighting chance with any cancer should this happen again. However, I would prefer not to go through it again. We are taking precautions on our end knowing this is not a guarantee.


I'm not saying research isn't important. I'm saying that I'm not sure whether or not rates have increased in the last couple of decades.


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## Nath

tippykayak said:


> I'm not saying research isn't important. I'm saying that I'm not sure whether or not rates have increased in the last couple of decades.


Our dogs oncologist and the doctors who first treated Belle stated that it has been on the rise over the last few years, but not certain why except for genetics. This is due not only from statistics in the media, but the amount of Goldens who they treat. 

Again whatever the case technology or the media making it seem like a rise in rates or not. I lost two of my dogs in a matter of weeks of this cancer. They were not from the same litter or family. No just one but two. That's too much for me. I am not trying to upset anyone on this board, but this is a subject that has hurt my heart and one I take very seriously.


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## tippykayak

Nath said:


> Our dogs oncologist and the doctors who first treated Belle stated that it has been on the rise over the last few years, but not certain why except for genetics. This is due not only from statistics in the media, but the amount of Goldens who they treat.
> 
> Again whatever the case technology or the media making it seem like a rise in rates or not. I lost two of my dogs in a matter of weeks of this cancer. They were not from the same litter or family. No just one but two. That's too much for me. I am not trying to upset anyone on this board, but this is a subject that has hurt my heart and one I take very seriously.


Ten years ago, I couldn't have told you a single person who took a dog to an oncologist at all. Now I could name twenty and fifty if I included people I only know through GRF. So I have no doubt that oncologists are seeing more and more of it, but again, that doesn't mean the actual rates are up.

Nobody, to my knowledge, has any kind of statistics that even track the increase in GR cancer rates, much less show anything conclusive about them. If anybody's seen any meaningful statistics on this that somehow control for the rise in reporting, I'd love to see them.

And we all take it incredibly seriously. I've lost two to cancer as well. One is too much, but all the more reason to keep a clear head and differentiate between anecdote and science.


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## goldensrbest

I have lost three to cancer, two goldens, i hope someday, cancer is gone, from the human race, and our animals, but i have my doubts.


----------



## Megora

Nath said:


> Again whatever the case technology or the media making it seem like a rise in rates or not. I lost two of my dogs in a matter of weeks of this cancer. They were not from the same litter or family. No just one but two. That's too much for me. I am not trying to upset anyone on this board, but this is a subject that has hurt my heart and one I take very seriously.


Again, I don't think any was saying it's not horrible or brushing off the problem.

The way I look at it is there are two different kinds of cancers that we are talking about... 

1. When young dogs develop cancer.
2. When very old dogs develop cancer. 

I believe that we should reasonably expect our dogs to live at least 10 years. After 10 years, they start developing various issues that help us come to terms with their approaching death and give us plenty of time to shower them with love and walk gently with them until their time comes. 

We lost two old dogs within a year apart. It was painful. <- I know when Debles lost her Selka and somebody posted a memorial video, I could not watch it because of the grief I felt over my Danny. And that was a year after.

It is all a selfish grief over my not having him anymore. My missing him. I know he lived a full life and did not suffer in the end. He was our Danny, wagging his tail for everyone and smiling. It was the happiest ending possible for him. As it was, we gave him a fighting chance to stay with us a little bit longer if it was meant to be, even if it wasn't.

But losing a young dog *to any disease (including cancer)*, is the most horrible thing for an owner to go through. I do not blame anyone for feeling outraged and upset. I think whether it is environmental or hereditary - I want people to find out what causes these problems.


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## AmberSunrise

Nath said:


> I lost two of my dogs in a matter of weeks of this cancer. They were not from the same litter or family. No just one but two. That's too much for me. I am not trying to upset anyone on this board, but this is a subject that has hurt my heart and one I take very seriously.


You know, I do not believe that anyone thinks your losing your dogs is anything less than terrible. Honestly I don't. It is terrible and it is heart wrenching. And I am sorry that you lost them. 

Those of us with older goldens who have been able to watch them age are grateful, but I personally do reserve the right to prefer my dogs be given a rapid death over a slow, painful, lingering death. We also take this seriously. 

Many of us with these older goldens have been able to contribute to the ongoing studies about canine cancer. Cancer is here and it sucks. For any of you who live near or belong to breed clubs, please consider supporting research by providing the DNA samples being requested.


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## Sally's Mom

I started another thread which I don't think anyone commented on about an "abstract" I saw in one of my freebie vet magazines about a COD study(a retrospective) done at the U of Ga. Of the 75,000 dogs they looked at, they found that 50% of golden deaths were due to cancer. Of course, boxers were up there and the not so common Bouvier. It was not a study done to see if things were on the rise or decline. Of course, chihuahuas and the like were well represented by cardiac disease.


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## Sally's Mom

And as I, and others have said before, donate samples to labs like the Modiano and Breen labs... and become part of the solution.


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## Nath

Ok. I will leave this thread to you guys. It's more important for me to get involve by donating money and samples then go round and round on a thread. Hope everyone has a nice Friday.


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## Dallas Gold

Sunrise said:


> You know, I do not believe that anyone thinks your losing your dogs is anything less than terrible. Honestly I don't. It is terrible and it is heart wrenching. And I am sorry that you lost them.
> 
> Those of us with older goldens who have been able to watch them age are grateful, but I personally do reserve the right to prefer my dogs be given a rapid death over a slow, painful, lingering death. We also take this seriously.
> 
> Many of us with these older goldens have been able to contribute to the ongoing studies about canine cancer. Cancer is here and it sucks. *For any of you who live near or belong to breed clubs, please consider supporting research by providing the DNA samples being requested*.


I just wanted to point out even if you aren't in a breed club or live nearby, you can donate DNA samples to CHIC DNA databank very easily from home using the cheek swab option ($5) or get your vet to draw a blood sample ($20) and your dog doesn't need to be a senior to participate. You must provide a 3 to 5 generation pedigree. I submitted Toby's at age 7, but as I understand it, I could do it earlier had i known. I got his pedigree from k9 data and printed it out, and filled out a health history and submitted it as instructed on their website. Here is the link to a thread about this, giving the website:
http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/golden-retrievers-main-discussion/87248-chic-dna-repository.html
You receive a registration number and a certificate that states that to keep the health history of the dog current they request you log on and update the record with any significant health changes. Perhaps in 25 years research using this information and the samples will improve the breed somehow.


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## AmbikaGR

Dallas Gold said:


> You receive a registration number and a certificate that states that to keep the health history of the dog current they request you log on and update the record with any significant health changes



At this time to my knowledge the online updates are still not available. In order to update info you need to send them an email with the information at [email protected]


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## Dallas Gold

AmbikaGR said:


> At this time to my knowledge the online updates are still not available. In order to update info you need to send them an email with the information at [email protected]


Thanks, I need to update Toby's profile and this is good to know.


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## AmberSunrise

Dallas Gold said:


> .... your dog doesn't need to be a senior to participate. You must provide a 3 to 5 generation pedigree. I submitted Toby's at age 7, but as I understand it, I could do it earlier had i known. I got his pedigree from k9 data and printed it out, and filled out a health history and submitted it as instructed on their website.


Thank you - you are absolutely right. My Towhee was added to the Database before she was 3 and Faelan will be added when a clinic in my area is offering the collection and submission again. Casey was added specifically since he is a senior.


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## StorminNorman

tippykayak said:


> Ten years ago, I couldn't have told you a single person who took a dog to an oncologist at all. Now I could name twenty and fifty if I included people I only know through GRF. So I have no doubt that oncologists are seeing more and more of it, but again, that doesn't mean the actual rates are up.
> 
> Nobody, to my knowledge, has any kind of statistics that even track the increase in GR cancer rates, much less show anything conclusive about them. If anybody's seen any meaningful statistics on this that somehow control for the rise in reporting, I'd love to see them.
> 
> And we all take it incredibly seriously. I've lost two to cancer as well. One is too much, but all the more reason to keep a clear head and differentiate between anecdote and science.


Another interesting comment/observation my breeder made to back his point about environmental causes was that cancer is very prevelant in Goldens which, as a breed, tend to be owned by the type of people who take pride in their lawns and are more likely to use lawn chemicals. Where as, Pit Bulls and other "tough guy gaurd dogs" which are more likely to be chained to a fence, and not exposed to lawn chemicals have a lower incidence of cancer. Whether or not there is any truth to this, I do not know.


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## cubbysan

StorminNorman said:


> Another interesting comment/observation my breeder made to back his point about environmental causes was that cancer is very prevelant in Goldens which, as a breed, tend to be owned by the type of people who take pride in their lawns and are more likely to use lawn chemicals. Where as, Pit Bulls and other "tough guy gaurd dogs" which are more likely to be chained to a fence, and not exposed to lawn chemicals have a lower incidence of cancer. Whether or not there is any truth to this, I do not know.


 
I have always thought the same thing.


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## Dallas Gold

StorminNorman said:


> Another interesting comment/observation my breeder made to back his point about environmental causes was that cancer is very prevelant in Goldens which, as a breed, tend to be owned by the type of people who take pride in their lawns and are more likely to use lawn chemicals. Where as, Pit Bulls and other "tough guy gaurd dogs" which are more likely to be chained to a fence, and not exposed to lawn chemicals have a lower incidence of cancer. Whether or not there is any truth to this, I do not know.


I think chemicals in the environment in general play some role in cancer, both in humans and in canines. One of my vet's other clients is a research scientist and is convinced the fire retardants in household furniture and rugs contributes to hypothyroidism and seizures. The secondary smoke from cigarettes emits toxins that cause cancer in non-smoking family members. 

Was the breeder just trying to blame you for fertilizing your yard and causing your dog's cancer? Anyone who walks a dog in an urban neighborhood along grass exposes their dog to whatever the neighbors are using on their lawns. I guess we should all be wearing bubble suits!


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## Tahnee GR

While I do not, in any way, agree with the breeder for what he said, I do agree with the theory somewhat. I do not use any chemicals on my lawn, and I ask that my puppy people do the same and refrain from exercising their dog on golf courses as well. Goldens do have a tendency towards cancer as a breed and I think it only makes sense to do as much as we can to minimize their exposure to any environmental factors that might exacerbate that tendency. Walking your dog in an urban environment is one thing, but chemically treating your yard, where your dog rolls and lays, and munches on grass, and sniffs, is another. Just as minimizing vaccinations and looking for healthy food to feed them.


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## tippykayak

StorminNorman said:


> Another interesting comment/observation my breeder made to back his point about environmental causes was that cancer is very prevelant in Goldens which, as a breed, tend to be owned by the type of people who take pride in their lawns and are more likely to use lawn chemicals. Where as, Pit Bulls and other "tough guy gaurd dogs" which are more likely to be chained to a fence, and not exposed to lawn chemicals have a lower incidence of cancer. Whether or not there is any truth to this, I do not know.


Whether or not this particular trend is true, it's a great example of the kind of thing that can skew our observations and make one thing look like a cause when another thing is.

The logical principle is that correlation does not prove causation, i.e., that just because B happens after A, B isn't necessarily the cause of A. If you want to be fancy, it's _post hoc ergo propter hoc_ in Latin.

That's why it's so important not to overestimate a single study or handful of studies that show correlation.


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## Irina

We did not use any chemicals on our grass and inside the house. Nobody smokes in our household. Our girl survived fibrosarcoma and died from hemangio when she was 8.5 years young.


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## Tahnee GR

Irina said:


> We did not use any chemicals on our grass and inside the house. Nobody smokes in our household. Our girl survived fibrosarcoma and died from hemangio when she was 8.5 years young.


You controlled her environment as much as you could, and that is all you can do. Would things have been different if you had not-who knows? You do the best you can, and sometimes it is not enough. I have a friend who truly thought that feeding raw was going to be the answer, but she lost both her dogs to hemangio at young ages.

I do the best I can to control my dogs environment, and if, God forbid, I should ever have to deal with hemangio in a young dog, I'll at least know I did the best I could. It's so very hard when we don't know the cause or early symptoms (if there even are any).

I do think that blaming the owner of a Golden who has just died from hemangio is very counter-productive.


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## Sally's Mom

Scotties are overrepresented by bladder cancer... so a few years back, I read in one of the vet journals about a correlation between using pesticides on the lawn and Scotties developing bladder cancer. And there was a positive correlation, but mind you they are "prone" to this type of cancer. Ironically, my husband's mentor(veterinarian) died from bladder cancer. My husband worked for him in high school. 10 years ago, around 40 years old, my husband got very sick. Because of all of the symptoms he was having, they recommended scoping his kidneys thru his ureters and scoping his bladder. I dropped him off at the hospital, not expecting the call I got from the urologist. The call was, "I just removed a tumor from your husband's bladder... it looks like a transitional cell carcinoma." It was like he was reporting the weather to me. Since that is what his mentor died from, I freaked out. But knock on wood, he was lucky, because scoping his bladder was "just to be complete." So it was caught early and multiple scopes later, ten years later, he is fine. My dad, the pathologist, cancer researcher, said that cancers like that were more common in people who work with chemicals. His example was that people who worked in leather tanning factories were at high risk for bladder cancer. But in the back of my head, I say,were my husband and his mentor exposed to the same bad chemical that my have contributed to it?


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## tippykayak

Pesticides are one of those things where the risk often outweighs the benefits. Are they the _cause_ of increased cancer rates? Hard to say with any certainty.

Even without conclusive evidence, would I say a green lawn worth the risk? Surely not. Is a topspot pesticide worth the risk to keep your dog from being exposed to a TBD? I'd say certainly yes.

And even if you do "everything right" and feed your dog completely organic food, never use pesticides anywhere in your house, and only take them to remote, wild areas for walks, you may not have reduced the risks by any significant amount, and your dog may still get cancer.


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