# New owner question



## Kris Metts (Nov 6, 2018)

My Wife and I put a deposit on a puppy to be picked up on December the 8th. We were able to meet the litter and the parents on site(family pets) both beautiful in their own right AKC registered. We picked out the largest of the litter who was a creamy little girl. I was given a copy of the AKC Litter Certificate along with the purchase contract. I didn't inspect the certificate on site since I really didn't think it mattered. As I look at it no however it appears as thought my puppies father was a result of Father/Daughter breeding(linebreeding from what I have read).This was not done by the current family I am purchasing from. The certificate has 3 generation on both side and everything else looks fine from what I can tell. The great grand parent on the father side even looks to have been a Champion of some sort via K9data. None of the other AKC numbers can be found on K9 so I'm just going by what I can find.


I have read linebreeding even this close is done sometimes for an assortment of reasons which I don't care about since we are getting a pet and she will be spayed. Just looking for some ideas on if this is ok?


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## cwag (Apr 25, 2017)

Your best bet for an answer might be to post the registered names of the sire and dam so some knowledge people (not me) could look at it.


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## Kris Metts (Nov 6, 2018)

I have attached the certificate. I may even be reading it wrong for all I know


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## swangful (Jun 12, 2018)

I'd be more concerned with the lack of health clearances. Neither the sire or dam have any when searching OFA.


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## ceegee (Mar 26, 2015)

Kris Metts said:


> My Wife and I put a deposit on a puppy to be picked up on December the 8th. We were able to meet the litter and the parents on site(family pets) both beautiful in their own right AKC registered. We picked out the largest of the litter who was a creamy little girl. I was given a copy of the AKC Litter Certificate along with the purchase contract. I didn't inspect the certificate on site since I really didn't think it mattered. As I look at it no however it appears as thought my puppies father was a result of Father/Daughter breeding(linebreeding from what I have read).This was not done by the current family I am purchasing from. The certificate has 3 generation on both side and everything else looks fine from what I can tell. The great grand parent on the father side even looks to have been a Champion of some sort via K9data. None of the other AKC numbers can be found on K9 so I'm just going by what I can find.



There are a few things here that you may want to think about.


First, the AKC, like other national kennel clubs, is only a registry. The fact that a dog or a litter is registered doesn't provide any kind of guarantee of quality. There are no inspections or tests or anything like that. Your certificate simply means that the person breeding the dogs has filled out the registration form, sent it in and paid the fee. 



Second, all you seem to have received was a copy of the registration certificate and the purchase contract; you don't mention the health certifications at all. Golden retrievers are prone to some pretty nasty (and very expensive) genetic problems, including hip and elbow dysplasia, heart defects and a variety of eye problems among other things. A responsible breeder will have had the parent dogs tested by specialist vets and certified as being clear of these four "core" problems, to reduce the risk of the puppies inheriting them. In addition, a responsible breeder would expect the preceding generations of dogs to have these health tests too. Based on the certificate you were given, this doesn't appear to have been done. So nobody knows if these puppies are at high risk for any of the genetic conditions that affect Goldens.



Third, you say both parents are owned by the person responsible for the breeding and are "family pets". That would usually mean not much thought has gone into the breeding: the dogs were bred together because it was convenient. Since none of the dogs on the certificate has ever been shown, or competed in a dog sport, or whatever (no titles), my guess is that the father-daughter breeding was done for the sake of convenience, and not based on any kind of thought process. Some breeders do this type of tight breeding occasionally, but not without an excellent reason, since it can sometimes create problems. There doesn't seem to be an excellent reason here.


Fourth, if the pups are ready to go home in early December, it means you've chosen your puppy when the litter was barely four weeks old. There is no possible way, at that age, to see the pups' personalities, energy levels, level of independence or anything else that would tell you which one would fit well into your household. If you read through the forum, you'll find stories from people who have clearly chosen pups that are a bad match for them: independent, bossy pups in families with small children, hyperactive pups in inexperienced families, and so on. The choosing or matching shouldn't be done until the pups are about 7 weeks old. And in any case, a good breeder will always either choose the puppy for you, based on how well its personality matches what you want from a dog, or will at least steer you towards one or two pups with the right characteristics. The fact that the person responsible for this breeding allowed you to make a choice when the pups are so young is a big red flag. And as an aside, colour should be the last criterion to use when choosing a puppy. 


I know you've paid your deposit and chosen your puppy, and probably want to go ahead. However, if I were in your shoes, I'd at least ask for copies of the four core health certificates (hips, elbows, eyes and heart). If the litter owner can't provide them, then I'd strongly suggest you take out health insurance on your puppy as soon as you bring her home. Treatment for any of the inherited genetic problems can run into many thousands of dollars.


There's also the question of how much the person is charging you for the pups. A well-bred pup from a reputable breeder would cost around $2,000 - a bit more, a bit less, depending on where you live. With no health certificates and no titles on the parents, you shouldn't be paying more than a quarter of that.



I'm sorry for bringing this stuff up, but it's important to know what you're getting into. With luck, your pup will live a long and healthy life. But if she should run into problems, insurance will allow you to deal with them without having to worry about the cost. 



For what it's worth, my dog comes from a long line of health-tested dogs that are all performance champions in their field. Even though his breeder has done everything she can to reduce the risks, the first thing I did when I brought him home was to take out insurance.


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## Kris Metts (Nov 6, 2018)

Thanks CeeGee a lot of good information here. I do know parents don't have the OFA testing as I did ask. From what I have found at least in the Florida area is that you cant wait the 7 weeks you suggested because there are no longer dogs available at that point. We had planned to do the insurance anyway, but it not about the money really its about a healthy animal.


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## Jmcarp83 (May 4, 2018)

Kris Metts said:


> Thanks CeeGee a lot of good information here. I do know parents don't have the OFA testing as I did ask. From what I have found at least in the Florida area is that you cant wait the 7 weeks you suggested because there are no longer dogs available at that point. We had planned to do the insurance anyway, but it not about the money really its about a healthy animal.


Most people aren’t waiting seven weeks to decide whether or not they’re getting the puppy. I knew at a week old I was getting a puppy from my breeder but did not know which puppy I was getting until the evening before I picked her up at 8 weeks. She picked the puppy based on family, what I hoped to do with the dog (therapy) etc. I don’t think they were suggesting you wait to decide if you want a puppy but saying at the age they are now there’s no way of knowing what or how the puppy will be.


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## David Pearson (Aug 30, 2018)

Heath insurance is always a good idea. I compared my Vet cost for Blondie to the insurance, the insurance was only $1000 more over her lifetime. Looking back I would pay the extra $1000, there are some good plans out there. 

By the way Blondie parents were never tested, she live for 13 1/2 years. She was very healthy. The testing just gives you better odds.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Another thing to look at- not only does the sire (haven't looked at dam) not have clearances, he is not old enough to have clearances since he has an SS reg number. My bitch who just turned 2 has an SR number and it's in the 890's 

This isn't a good bet imo. I'm inputting into k9data and then I will look into OFA behind them, but even that inbreeding (and daughter to father is inbreeding not linebreeding) behind the sire seems awfully risky to me.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Gotta go get some dinner cooked-right when this is getting interesting... so if you go to Ruger's k9data page (newly created) Pedigree: Ruger Jake Ringham you will see that there's quite a bit of inbreeding there- not only was Willy bred to a daughter, but he and that daughter's mother are half siblings. PLUS I went through all the dogs in your pedigree, and Brisa is the only one w an OFA record- it is of moderately dysplastic hips. Note his birthday- he isn't even a year old yet. That means they allowed him to breed their bitch when he was seriously a baby. A baby. 
I do not see any CH or any titles of any sort on k9data. 

Someone else could go to AKC and input reg numbers just changing the last two to get littermates and put them in k9data, and then check OFA on them.. or I will do it later tonight. 
Here is Rylee's k9data page- Pedigree: Rylee Joy Ringham (none w clearances)

I'd be willing to bet you know more than the breeder does about this pedigree now...


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## Kris Metts (Nov 6, 2018)

Prism,


That would be great about litter mates. Again I'm not sure how to navigate the AKC numbers in K9 Data and you have already found more than I did.


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## 153330 (Dec 29, 2016)

Oh dear. 

It looks to me like you have a difficult decision ahead**. Continue with the purchase knowing now that the puppy has less than stellar breeding practices behind her, and is therefore statistically more likely to have hereditary health issues which will probably cost you a lot of money, time and heartache down the line: Or to pull out of the purchase, lose your deposit, and expect the pup will be resold to someone else anyway, who may not realise what her health risks are, and therefore may also not be fully prepared to properly insure and treat her.

If you choose the first option you'll likely save yourselves some later heartbreak but lose the deposit, and the pup will go to a different home that might be less discerning, but maybe no less loving. 

If you choose the second option, you will be taking on a financial risk to ensure the welfare of a dog that hasn't been created with its own health as a priority. (Not very fair on you or your the puppy...)

Although you might be able to offer this puppy the best home, and buy her the best insurance, statistically she is more likely to suffer from her inbreeding, and you'll be (unwillingly) supporting the breeder to keep producing pups from parents who are too young and not heath screened.

Short term = this puppy now, financial and heath consequences you'll deal with if and when, v different puppy later = which means this individual puppy may lose out on you as responsible owners, but the health of the Golden Retriever population overall benefits long term when breeders get rejected for creating puppies purely for profit and without doing health clearances. And you can support ethical breeders.

Having met the little one (as you have done), I'd hate to be in your shoes right now. Nobody wants to reject a puppy. (Especially a beautiful Golden Retriever puppy they've already chosen!)
There is no right or wrong answer for what you choose to do next, but hopefully others who viewed this forum thread in the future will see your dilemma and use the knowledge from the wise breeders here, avoid this situation if at all possible?

Health questions re: parents first , visit and choose puppy after.

(**I'm going to bet you're going to go ahead anyway, so as Prism(?) said, insure her fully and comprehensively as soon as you can)


Good luck and post photos of whichever pup you bring home? Everyone here loves puppy photos.... :0)


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## 153330 (Dec 29, 2016)

Sorry - it was CeeGee that made the important point re: insurance ASAP!


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

one of these puppies is now on k9data (as is her brother) Pedigree: Charlee Spurling

interestingly this week someone posted on MFGRC FB page asking for help finding siblings, so I began doing some research- check out good ol' Sambra's influence in this pedigree! Pedigree: Bauer's Louie

These two dogs (OP's dog if they got her) and this dog are interestingly related- the Gonzalez dogs and Sambra and Willy, apparently they are all just allowed to randomly choose half sibs and there's a father/daughter in there too (one of these two - I don't remember now which) and my- I sure would love to know where this little breeding hub is located. The FB inquiry said he got his pup from Ocala (where I live) and it was their first litter- though I think that since the bitch has had 2 litters that probably isn't so. 
signing off, 
Columbo


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

I'm going to try to answer the original question about line breeding.

What you've got here is a kinda, sorta "Brackett Breeding." Lloyd Brackett is famous for a breeding formula. He says that there is a favorite breeding theory, or system, used by successful breeders of many varieties of animals. It usually eventuates in superior stock IF the male selected is himself an outstanding specimen, nearly faultless, and has such progenitors. It goes like this: "Let the sire of the sire be the grandsire of the dam, on the dam´s side."

This means that the father's father can be the mother's grandfather, on the mother's side.

What you've got here is a sire of the sire and grandsire both on the sire's side. So it's not quite a Brackett breeding, but it's the same thinking. If there is any actual thinking to this breeding, at all, which I suspect there is not. This looks just like the casual breeding of available animals, not any kind of breeding theory being put into practice.


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## DanaRuns (Sep 29, 2012)

Double post.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

You two are awesome.... Robin I'm glad you found some siblings but wish it provided more or better info. As far as line breeding I had to chuckle.... the only dog with clearances had hip dysplasia and he is worried about line breeding??


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## Val King (Jun 23, 2016)

Just for the record, I too didn't look to closely at clearances..I thought just being AKC registered took care of all that..now I know it's just a registry and Mothers Farm School from Santa Fe, NM AKC English Creme golden retrievers "championship bloodlines, health guarantees were BS! Core clearances were not done and I now have a one year old puppy genetically missing 7 adult molars on her lower jaw...thats 33%...Needless to say I am devastated...love her to death, but very concerned for additional problems,,She now has preexisting dental condition, and health insurance became a must! Breeder did not provide clearances when asked, hung up on me, and none are on record. I WOULD HAVE NEVER PURCHASED FROM THIS BREEDER HAD I KNOWN. In addition, my puppy is one, and her mom is prego for the 3rd time and is only 3!!! Puppy mill....I am furious, in addition to finding out additional teeth never fully differientiated into full roots!!! Do your research...I should have done a better job...posters on this site really know what they are talking about!! Good luck with your new baby...I'm sure he/she will be awesome!


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

It's a tough way to learn but the school of hard knocks teaches lessons very thoroughly. 

( I know, I'm a graduate of Hard Knock U, Class of 72. )


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I'm just so puzzled really, this one pup came from NM to FL, and then a few months later, a related pedigree in FL shows up in FL and 
I guess one could put that off to all the pups back when 18 mo ago leaving on full reg and now they're all reproducing.. but I find it strange.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

It's also disappointing to see dogs imported, some without registration and yet are given AKC numbers. Not much of a pedigree.

I keep thinking about the person from Ireland ... sounding like a puppy mill and complaining as the person he sent a litter of puppies to didn't pay him. Like we don't have enough puppy mills in this country. We are now importing them in bulk! And people are thinking how wonderful it is to have an "imported" dog. Really sad.

Just a personal opinion... not trying to offend anyone, just sharing my thoughts.


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## Val King (Jun 23, 2016)

where in NM? breeder?


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## Val King (Jun 23, 2016)

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## Val King (Jun 23, 2016)

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## Val King (Jun 23, 2016)

*clearances*

Frankly, I look at this picture of my little girl's missing teeth, lack of parental clearances, fraudulent registry, and would in hindsight, get a puppy with documentable parental clearances..We all fall in love with every puppy, but think long term and potential heartbreak...I do....Each day


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## Kris Metts (Nov 6, 2018)

OP Follow up.


We did end up taking the puppy we had selected originally. Lulu is almost 8 months old weighing in at 60lbs 100% healthy according to the vet. She is a very good dog, a little wild sometimes, but she's still a pup I tell my self lol. See love the pool and destroying her toys.


I too would like to be in contact with her siblings owners. Is there a way to track down that information other than from the seller?


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

> I too would like to be in contact with her siblings owners. Is there a way to track down that information other than from the seller?


Does your Breeder have a Facebook Group for puppy owners?

You may want to contact her to see if she does.


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## Kris Metts (Nov 6, 2018)

Also I have added Lulu to the K9 Registry. Hopefully I can find some of the siblings local. Also Robin I tried to PM you but I don't have enough posts. Please send me a Facebook message and we can connect


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## Kris Metts (Nov 6, 2018)

CAROLINA MOM said:


> Does your Breeder have a Facebook Group for puppy owners?
> 
> You may want to contact her to see if she does.




I don't believe they do


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## CAROLINA MOM (May 12, 2009)

Kris Metts said:


> Also I have added Lulu to the K9 Registry. Hopefully I can find some of the siblings local. Also Robin I tried to PM you but I don't have enough posts. Please send me a Facebook message and we can connect


You now have enough posts to send Private Messages on the forum. 
The required post count was changed to 7 so it would be easier for new members to contact others.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

You added her but she is not registered- so the last two digits do not show up on AKC. 
Perhaps the other however many in the litter also did not register their puppies. The only two who are actually AKC registered are on k9data.
I find it very odd that the NM puppy and this puppy are related through Sambra who obviously is a much bred should never have been bred bitch... and that two litters' people are looking for sibs...

You asked me in the PM how I found the two sibs to Lulu. 
Same way I know Lulu isn't AKC registered as of yet anyway. In the AKC store, you can input reg numbers and the info on that dog pops up. 
Dogs from the same litter have the same registration number save the last two digits. So when I know the litter number, which I got off your pedigree, I just added 01, 02, etc all the way through 10 to get the info (names basically) on the registered dogs in that litter.


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## Sweet Girl (Jun 10, 2010)

Love that photo of Lulu in the pool. :smile2:


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## Kris Metts (Nov 6, 2018)

Prism I doubt we will be registering her officially with the AKC unless there is a legitimate reason to do so as she is a pet and wont be bred. We were looking for Sibs in the area because when we picked her up they said most were purchase local, I know 1 went to Miami. It would be nice for a play date and to keep up on the health of them. As far as Sambra I cant be much help there Its pretty hard to follow the K9data once you get a few tabs open it all blends together. If there is a way to come across the owners of the two registered pups we would be grateful for the info.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

You might try searching for the registered names on FB, just in case owners 'introduced' the dogs by their reg names... that's all I can think of until and if either of them compete in some AKC venue- then it is super easy to find out name/address of owner.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I finished filling in her pedigree yesterday. I had to wait until AKC rolled around the BOM$$.


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