# Working mom & dad!!



## natali861 (Dec 22, 2011)

Both my husband and I work a full day and are gone from the house from 7am-5pm. We have had our 3-4 month old golden, Aspen, for about 4 weeks now. I have been coming home every day at lunch (30min drive each way!) to let Aspen out to potty and a quick walk around the block. I'm realizing this just can't go on forever, but I have too much of a guilty conscience to leave my puppy in a crate ALL day!! We have a nice big backyard, but I'm worried it is too big for him right now and also worried about him digging to escape. I'm thinking about building a fence within our yard to make a smaller area for Aspen so we can leave him outside during the day. I want him to have grass, shade, and shelter (a dog house I guess). Do y'all think it would be ok to leave him outside all day with this setup or is he better off inside in his crate at this age? And also, any suggestions on an easy cheap fence type I could build? Eventually when he is bigger and we have our permanent fence dig-proofed, he can have the whole backyard so I don't want to make this inside fence too permanent. 

Thanks for your advice!! :wave:


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I would never leave any dog outside unsupervised during the day. I know mine would find ways to get into trouble.. dig holes, chew siding, eat rocks and get an obstruction. Have you considered a dog walker? My sister uses one with great success.


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## baumgartml16 (Jun 19, 2011)

I would be uncomfortable with unsupervised time outside for the above mentioned reasons as well.

My husband and I are both working all day as well and we had our family helping us out those first few months when Koda was much smaller and couldn't hold it as long. Now we have either my mom, my mother in law, or our dog sitter come around the lunch hour for an hour - hour and a half each day and let her out, feed her, walk her. She seems okay with this. We are going to start working on letting her out of the crate little by little (she is 8 months) and eventually hope to have her out in the house so she isn't locked up all day and has the freedom to roam a bit and look outside.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I'm 1/2 hour from home as well and go home on my longer lunch hours.


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## SeaMonster (Jul 4, 2011)

Is your puppy potty train? As soon as our dog was potty trained, we secured the fence(laying bricks/rocks all around the bottom), and installed a doggy door. Problem solved


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

We started letting both our dogs outside in our fenced backyard at around 8 months while we both worked. They were just fine. Cody did dig a little while Wyatt never touched a thing. Both my dogs enjoy being outside and have never had a problem.

I think some people froget they are dogs lol!


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## FinnTastic (Apr 20, 2009)

I would get a dog sitter or neighbor to let her out and play during the lunch hour. I would not leave your dog unsupervised outside all day. Someone might try and dognap that precious little thing.


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## natali861 (Dec 22, 2011)

Aspen is not quite potty trained yet, but we are working on it. He tells us he needs to potty by going to the back door when we are home and watching him, but if we take too long to open it then he will find another place to pee! We definitely can not let him have free roam of the house when we are away, even for 10 minutes. 

Aspen also LOVES being outside, with or without us. When the weather is nice on the weekends, we will leave him outside on his own for most of the day - but only when we are home and have all the windows open to see and hear him. He entertains himself by playing with the soccer ball, chewing on grass (I think he learned that from the cats), and digging.... But he has only dug in the middle of the yard or next to the patio, not at the fence line... YET!


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

I think he's better off inside. If you could give him a space of his own, an x-pen or a baby-gated room of his own he'd be safer and much more comfortable when Houston heats up again.

Penny is never outside unsupervised. Other animals can come along: dogs, skunks. Meter readers, delivery people etc can leave a gate open. Kids could get in to play. It's more than just what the dog might do.

Inside is safer and better.


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## Ryley's Dad (Oct 12, 2010)

Have you considered Doggy Daycare?

Price is comparable to having a dog walker come to your home to walk the dog... plus its great socialization for the dog.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

natali861 said:


> Aspen is not quite potty trained yet, but we are working on it. He tells us he needs to potty by going to the back door when we are home and watching him, but if we take too long to open it then he will find another place to pee! We definitely can not let him have free roam of the house when we are away, even for 10 minutes.
> 
> Aspen also LOVES being outside, with or without us. When the weather is nice on the weekends, we will leave him outside on his own for most of the day - but only when we are home and have all the windows open to see and hear him. He entertains himself by playing with the soccer ball, chewing on grass (I think he learned that from the cats), and digging.... But he has only dug in the middle of the yard or next to the patio, not at the fence line... YET!


 
He sounds like my Wyatt. Give him a few more months and I think he will be just fine. You will be happier too because he will not have to rely on someone letting him out to potty


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## Calistar (Dec 13, 2011)

Removed by poster


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

not helpful :no:



Calistar said:


> Sadly your puppy is at a stage where he is a veritable sponge and can readily be trained. If your only choices are to crate or be put outside, I would vote for a crate. A Midwestern Life Stages wire crate from Walmart allows you to make his sleeping area just big enough. If he is in a crate that is too big, he will poop and pea in one end and sleep in the other and undo your potty training. Since your lives are apparently too busy right now to train him, you might consider some type of day care that has training classes for your puppy Unfortunately we humans fail to realize that behavioral problems seen as a dog gets older are the result of their humans not doing their job when they are younger. It can work out but it has to do more with luck and genetics than anything else. I would ask your self if you think a child of 2-3 years of age could fend for themselves on the schedule you are currently using and still turn out to be a good child. I am not trying to be ugly rather trying to provide an analogy that most humans can better understand.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Calistar said:


> Sadly your puppy is at a stage where he is a veritable sponge and can readily be trained. If your only choices are to crate or be put outside, I would vote for a crate. A Midwestern Life Stages wire crate from Walmart allows you to make his sleeping area just big enough. If he is in a crate that is too big, he will poop and pea in one end and sleep in the other and undo your potty training. Since your lives are apparently too busy right now to train him, you might consider some type of day care that has training classes for your puppy Unfortunately we humans fail to realize that behavioral problems seen as a dog gets older are the result of their humans not doing their job when they are younger. It can work out but it has to do more with luck and genetics than anything else. I would ask your self if you think a child of 2-3 years of age could fend for themselves on the schedule you are currently using and still turn out to be a good child. I am not trying to be ugly rather trying to provide an analogy that most humans can better understand.


What in the world does their working full time have to do with not being able to train a dog? And not trying to be ugly either but what does your analogy about a 3 year old child have to do with anything? Just curious do you work with a rescue organization?

down off soapbox........


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## Calistar (Dec 13, 2011)

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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

My dogs are in a secure dog yard while I am at work. The fencing is 6 feet high and partially buried so they cannot dig under it (also have cement running under the fence line) with several dog houses and a heated dog shed. Their yard is well away from neighbors & the road; and is surrounded by woods on 3 sides and a large garage (which attaches to the shed) on the remaining side.

I cannot justify leaving my dogs inside for a full day - I know many folks do this but I just cannot.

ETA: PS: My dogs are certainly not 'neglected' or maladjusted in any way shape or form LOL. I also live in a climate that is way less hot that the southern climes in the summer.


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## Calistar (Dec 13, 2011)

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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

deceitful? So every other dog on the forum with working parents is neglected and has turned out badly? I hate hijacking someone's thread for an arguement but you are just plain wrong with your attitude and condescention.

Many, many working families have quite well-trained dogs and lovely, well-behaved children. To suggest other wise is just mean.


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## Calistar (Dec 13, 2011)

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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Calistar said:


> Training requires repeated exercises throughout the day. It cannot be crammed into a narrow band of 1/4 of the day if success is required.


Dang I must have a miracle dog: As do many of my co workers:


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## baumgartml16 (Jun 19, 2011)

I dont see any behavioural issues with my dog and we have been working so far since we have had her. We train every chance we get. She gets trained in the mornings (home for 2 hours), trained at lunch (1-1.5 hours) and trained in the evenings (good 4-5 hours we are home). 

Even when we are home during the day she doesn't get more training than that as she would prefer to take her naps. 

I don't think there is anything wrong with this situation.


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## Calistar (Dec 13, 2011)

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## Calistar (Dec 13, 2011)

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## natali861 (Dec 22, 2011)

My husband and I definitely don't neglect our puppy, despite our working schedule. We get up extra early to have time with him before work, I have come home every day at lunch to play and walk with him, and we spend our entire evenings 100% focused on him. Not to mention all weekend every weekend! He gets plenty of training time and is happy to sleep in his crate when we are gone and at night. I did also say we are starting puppy school with him in January which is a 6 week course. 

The driving back at lunch is exhausting but I will obviously do it as long as I need to until he is at a point he can be on his own all day. I would not consider doggy daycare (as much fun as that sounds) because the hours of the places near us open after I'm supposed to be at work and before I'm supposed to get off work. I will look into a dog walker for once a day, but I know all of our immediate neighbors work all day too  

Puppies are not the same as children. They are much more self sufficient and can tolerate more on their own. I don't plan to work when I have kiddos in maybe 2 years. Even with our working schedule, I'm pretty sure we have given Aspen an awesome home to grow up in, and he is better off than most!


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## Calistar (Dec 13, 2011)

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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Calistar said:


> If you routinely left your puppy alone for extended periods while in the 3-4 month range, he may not be a miracle dog but you and those co-workers to whom you refer should be thankful for your blessing.


If you have read my posts I said I started leaving them outside when they were around 8 months. No he is not a miracle dog. Lots of hard work and love. Although I treat my dog like my child......I know the difference


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

_ETA: This post was in response to a dirct question from Calistar inquiring whether I had puppies or older dogs. And in response to an assertion that dogs need to be trained multiple times throughout the day if 'success is to be achieved' . These posts have since been deleted by the poster, so my response was seemingly coming from left field somewhere_ 

Calistar,

My dogs start as puppies and grow to be adults. I actively train and compete with my dogs in obedience, rally, agility and field work. 

Dog training I know. It can be very successful split between morning and evening sessions - you might wish to explore the Agility, Obedience and Hunt training threads to see just how successful working folks can be training their dogs. 

There are many lifestyles of dog owners, and I personally have had very bad experiences with doggie day care. And, my dogs are well behaved house dogs while I am home, in case you were wondering. My vet, family & friends all adore my dogs.


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## FinnTastic (Apr 20, 2009)

Here is another concern I would have . . . animals that could hurt your puppy like poisonous snakes, spiders, or another kind of animal that may be able to get in to your yard . . . just a thought.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

While I don't leave mine outside when I am not home I honestly feel like people who do it don't deserve the bad rap because of it. I get it--it is bad when people kennel their dogs outside and never do anything with them. However, it can be done responsibly and I think it is a personal choice. 

Hey, a dog that receives good food, good vet care, training and attention but spends time outside in a kennel during the day is a dog that has a much better life than the vast majority of dogs out there. Also there are many dog that enjoy being outside and would much rather be out rather than stuck inside all day.


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

Well, let's just stay on the OP's question: about leaving a pup/dog outside when they are at work.

She didn't ask about training or lack of, didn't ask about neglect. Any reference to those things is irrelevant.

I too worry about other nasty things getting into the yard. I tend to be a helicopter mom with Penny.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

I am not against the idea of making a safe and nice set-up for a dog to be outside during the day while the humans are at work. Some things you should be thinking about:

Barking--do you trust the dog? Not ok with the neighbors.

Age. I am not sure that 3-4 months old is an appropriate age for this. It might depend. I would ask someone who actually does let their dogs out when at work. Might depend on the individual dog too. I also wonder if it would be better to wait until he is fully housebroken.

Safety. Make sure the puppy is secured and absolutely nothing harmful that the puppy could get to or vice versa.


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

I would whole-heartedly discourage EVERYONE from training a 3-4 month old puppy for 3-3.5 hours a day. A couple of 10-15 minute periods is about all they can handle. If, by training you mean command>obedience>correction>compliance type work. Any time we are with our pups, we are teaching them.

What is your background in dog training, Calistar?



Calistar said:


> You are training a total of 3-3.5 hours in the morning and at lunch


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## kwhit (Apr 7, 2008)

My dogs aren't outside unless I'm home. I've done this with every dog I've had and it's always worked for me. 

My cousin has always left her dogs out all day while she and her husband are at work. Has done this for years. But just a week ago, when she came home, her female Catahoula was extremely sick. She rushed her to the ER, but it was too late. She passed the next day. She had been killed. Someone had thrown some meat over the fence that had been poisoned. :no: It's a good area, she knows all her neighbors, had been living there for years...still, it happened. And it happens every day, everywhere. I will _not_ take that chance. 

That is the reason my dogs are _never_ outside without me being home.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I stand by my earlier comment. Fortunately, my dogs CAN come to work when puppies. And my vet husband's easier schedule means there is only one day in the afternoon, humans are not around. But I keep coming back to the fact that as a child with parents working full time, we still had dogs... although none of them started out as 8 week old pups, they still had some age to them...


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

OMG, how sad. They must be broken-hearted.

This is another reason why I supervise Penny whenever she's out. Who knows what someone might throw out a car window at her. I just don't feel safe about it.



kwhit said:


> My dogs aren't outside unless I'm home. I've done this with every dog I've had and it's always worked for me.
> 
> My cousin has always left her dogs out all day while she and her husband are at work. Has done this for years. But just a week ago, when she came home, her female Catahoula was extremely sick. She rushed her to the ER, but it was too late. She passed the next day. She had been killed. Someone had thrown some meat over the fence that had been poisoned. :no: It's a good area, she knows all her neighbors, had been living there for years...still, it happened. And it happens every day, everywhere. I will _not_ take that chance.
> 
> That is the reason my dogs are _never_ outside without me being home.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

kwhit said:


> My dogs aren't outside unless I'm home. I've done this with every dog I've had and it's always worked for me.
> 
> My cousin has always left her dogs out all day while she and her husband are at work. Has done this for years. But just a week ago, when she came home, her female Catahoula was extremely sick. She rushed her to the ER, but it was too late. She passed the next day. She had been killed. Someone had thrown some meat over the fence that had been poisoned. :no: It's a good area, she knows all her neighbors, had been living there for years...still, it happened. And it happens every day, everywhere. I will _not_ take that chance.
> 
> That is the reason my dogs are _never_ outside without me being home.


That is just heartless.......and sounds like no accident to me.


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## Orchid (Feb 28, 2011)

I would say that Aspen would be safer inside the side. If possible you can have a dog walker or a friend to come around once or twice to take him out to potty, and play with him a bit. But having him outside is just so much risky as for all aforementioned reasons. You can try to keep him in a playpen or puppy proof a room and let him have the run of it. 

Also, as Ryley's Dad suggested, the doggy daycare is another excellent option. Buddy is never anywhere outside without me or my family keeping a hawk eye on him. I worry too much . 

Good luck with your little boy.


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## Orchid (Feb 28, 2011)

kwhit said:


> My dogs aren't outside unless I'm home. I've done this with every dog I've had and it's always worked for me.
> 
> My cousin has always left her dogs out all day while she and her husband are at work. Has done this for years. But just a week ago, when she came home, her female Catahoula was extremely sick. She rushed her to the ER, but it was too late. She passed the next day. She had been killed. Someone had thrown some meat over the fence that had been poisoned. :no: It's a good area, she knows all her neighbors, had been living there for years...still, it happened. And it happens every day, everywhere. I will _not_ take that chance.
> 
> That is the reason my dogs are _never_ outside without me being home.


This is so heartless! What cruel person could do such a thing to an innocent soul! Your cousin must be so heartbroken.


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## Calistar (Dec 13, 2011)

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## Calistar (Dec 13, 2011)

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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Calistar said:


> Then if you are talking about leaving them outside at eight months of age, I believe it is fair to say your situation and actions are not analagous to what the original poster was inquiring about since her puppy is half that age nor is your situation the one I was commenting on. I am glad your dog is fully trained and a well behaved dog. But since your situation is entirely different my remarks were not meant to apply to you since by eight months puppies should be well on the road to be fully trained and knowing what it takes to behave. *It really helps to consider if ones actions and the results they achieved took place under similar circumstances before critiquing an opinion based on an entirely differing set of facts than yours.*


Actually I was just correcting your assumption.....opinions are one thing.....assumptions and insinuations are another.
I still feel that the op and her dog will be fine if they made a safe outdoor kennel for the day time as mentioned in her original post, weather permitting of course. JMHO.


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## Calistar (Dec 13, 2011)

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## baumgartml16 (Jun 19, 2011)

I don't agree they should be trained 3-3.5 hours either. I said that is the time spent with her btwn noting and lunch not all training by any means, plus my pup is 8 months old, not 4. 

Focusing on the OP question, try to find a dog sitter that can come let your pup out at lunch and take for a walk, get up a little earlier in the morning to give the pup more time with you and plan to give that pup exercise/training time when you get home. The pup will be fine! This is what we have done with Koda and she is a very well behaved, good natured dog!!


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## Calistar (Dec 13, 2011)

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## BajaOklahoma (Sep 27, 2009)

I live in the city that was declared the safest city in the US, for the second year in a row. No way would I leave my dogs out unsupervised.

For Banker, we hired a college student to come over twice a day to let him out until he was 6 months old, then once a day until school was out. She was 5 minutes away and even played with him when she came over. A bargain for us, extra money for her.


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## natali861 (Dec 22, 2011)

Calistar said:


> And just what was it that I was assuming. The poster made it clear that from 7-5 other than a quick trip home they cannot interact with the dog. They may interact before and after those hours but not for those hours. That seems to be pretty factual. Other than that I made no insinuations. I just said I don't think that is the right way to raise or train a puppy. So we just disagree. I just wish that you and others would allow opinions that differ to be posted without trying to twist what was said or calling people names.



So Calistar, what exactly do you suggest I do? Should I quit my $70k/yr job? Or return Aspen to the kill shelter I rescued him from? Or maybe let him have free reign of the house all day, letting him potty all over the place and chew anything within reach, essentially going negative on any training we have done with him? Or I can invite a complete stranger over to my house so they can not only steal my dog but also all of my valuables? 

Please, constructive criticism only. My question was only: Is it better to crate him inside, or give him a comfortable enclosed area outside? I understand he is still young and that was one of my concerns.. which is WHY I even asked the question! This is my first round with a puppy this young (not with a dog in general) so I'm trying to get a feel of what age they are ready to do certain things. I really would love a reliable dog sitter that I can trust but that will take time for me to find, as we've only lived in our neighborhood for 6 months. All of our neighbors/friends in the area have full time jobs, dogs, AND kids. I'm sure during the summer I can get one of their kids to help out, but I am trying to find the best solution for January.

Your opinion is fine, but please oh please try to stick to the topic and only provide helpful non-degrading information!


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## luverofpeanuts (Jun 9, 2011)

We have an "Aspen" too.. only she's female! She and her sibling, Spirit are 37 weeks today! 

That you have an "Aspen" caught my eye, as well as the original post. I'll admit to not reading through all 5 pages of posts...not sure I regret that or not ;-) if you know what I mean. 

Count me in the camp that very leery of leaving a dog unsupervised outside in a kennel. I caught some neighbor kids throwing rocks at a neighbor dog that had wonderful indoor/outdoor kennel setup as part of the detached garage. This dog had the ability to go inside during the assault, but the boys were teasing him enough to get him riled up...but not really "hurt" him. Even though we have installed a fenced in yard since then, we don't leave our dogs out unless we are home and able to keep an eye on them.

I will say that at 37 weeks now, our pups are probably able to stand a fairly long crate time. I do, however, think that your lunch time walk... though very hard on you and your schedule probably has a dramatic affect on your pups relationship in a very positive way. 

If I were in your shoes, I'd probably attempt to find a trustworthy person to do the mid day break, or pet walker service, or something like that. As you say, it takes time to find the person/service that meets your needs and trust. Aside from that, expanding the crate area, to an X-pen or something like that may be the next best thing. We have two crates for our pups, and I setup an internet cam on the crates so I could monitor them while away from home. When they were in the thick of potty training mode, I could tell when they were restless....and that spurred me on to get my a$$ home; luckily I'm 10ish or so minutes from office parking lot, to driveway. Three times, I discovered Aspen made her way OUT of the crate due to absent minded closure by my DW. 

Everyone's situation is different, so other than relaying my own experiences and factors for my decision, I can't offer much more other to say I think you'll figure out what works best for you. 

Best of luck!


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## jagmanbrg (Jan 4, 2011)

If I were in your situation, which we ourselves will be in a few months, I would keep him inside. We both work, our schedules will allow us to make sure he will be let out every two hours or so while he is a puppy. As he gets older we intend to stretch it out like you do, with a potty break on our lunch break. Eventually I would love to be able to just leave our dog roam the house without tearing up anything or having accidents, but not sure how that might work, I plan on putting his crate in the kitchen and blocking off the kitchen as he'll have more room and wont feel so cramped. 

Is that a option for you? Maybe sticking the crate in a room that is somewhat "dog" proof.

ps, Calistar, just wanted to clarify, you think it is "wrong" to leave a puppy in a crate or at home not being "trained" while the owners are both working?


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

IMO it's a long day to be out unsupervised. An outdoor dog-proof run is probably fine, but having never done that myself, I'm not initially sold on the idea. I've raised both my current dogs in an apartment. When I got the first as a pup, I worked an office job. She stayed in a crate (home for potty breaks), but often, once I knew she could hold it for the day, I had to skip the lunchtime potty break b/c I often worked through lunch. As she got a little older, she transitioned to a crate with the door open and an x-pen attached to the outside to give her more room, then on to baby-gated in the kitchen. She wasn't loose in my house until about 2-years-old.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

FlyingQuizini said:


> IMO it's a long day to be out unsupervised. An outdoor dog-proof run is probably fine, but having never done that myself, I'm not initially sold on the idea. I've raised both my current dogs in an apartment. When I got the first as a pup, I worked an office job. She stayed in a crate (home for potty breaks), but often, once I knew she could hold it for the day, I had to skip the lunchtime potty break b/c I often worked through lunch. As she got a little older, she transitioned to a crate with the door open and an x-pen attached to the outside to give her more room, then on to baby-gated in the kitchen. She wasn't loose in my house until about 2-years-old.


OH - here's an idea ... I have a friend who transitioned to baby-gating the dog in the kitchen, which had dog-door access to a side-run (but not the entire yard). That gave the dog limited indoor/outdoor access and I think works quite well. I think limiting access wherever the dog is (indoors, outdoors) is important to reduce the amount of trouble a self-employed dog can get into.


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## Calistar (Dec 13, 2011)

*Inquiring About Windy Ridge Goldens*

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## jagmanbrg (Jan 4, 2011)

Le sigh....I was gonna hold my tongue, so much made over a pretty simple topic. You sure do have a low post count to have so much back and forth banter. So I'm gonna attempt to digest your reply...



Calistar said:


> If you would have read my entire posts instead of focusing just on my disagreement with your thoughts on crating or penning Aspen outside, you would have noticed that i agreed with the recommendation of several others here that you should consider doggie daycare.


I wouldn't say "several" others suggested doggie daycare, *One* person did. The OP asked whether is was better to leave the dog inside or outside.....not what should I do with my dog while I'm at work.



Calistar said:


> I would never recommend that anyone give a puppy complete control over their home and for you to imply I did is simply snarky. As far as inviting a complete stranger to your house to steal your valuables, I in no way suggested that nor has anyone else here done that. *Interesting that your comment was more concerned about turning access to your material things over to a stranger and never mentioned Aspen*.





natali861 said:


> Or I can invite a complete stranger over to my house *so they can not only steal my dog but also all of my valuables*?


Who's really being snarky here?



Calistar said:


> None of my comments was degrading, all were *on topic*, and they were all intended to be constructive criticism.


Not really, the topic was inside or outside...not get a dog walker, take dog to daycare, you should spend more time training your dog etc...

And why does the OP need constructive criticism on this topic? Were not debating spay/neuter ages....



Calistar said:


> My only "crime" here was to tell you that I did not think either of your solutions represented a good solution and offered *one *which I felt was better, You and others here were free to accept or ignore my suggestion. However, I am amazed at how many wanted to make this WWIII. I hope whatever you do with Aspen works. But I am frankly through defending what I felt was a good alternative suggestion to people who take offense if you fail to agree with them.


You posted 12 times, don't act like you posted your thoughts and your suggestions one time and everyone jumped on you.

I'm sorry for the long post, but it's just annoying when a "newer" member comes to the forum to ask a simple question and the thread gets derailed for no reason, and by another new member no less. Of course people have different opinions, but in this case I just had to say something. 

To the OP please don't let this thread reflect the forum as a whole. Also did you make a intro thread? Would love to see pics of Aspen.


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## Calistar (Dec 13, 2011)

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## aerolor (May 27, 2011)

natali861 said:


> So Calistar, what exactly do you suggest I do? Should I quit my $70k/yr job? Or return Aspen to the kill shelter I rescued him from? Or maybe let him have free reign of the house all day, letting him potty all over the place and chew anything within reach, essentially going negative on any training we have done with him? Or I can invite a complete stranger over to my house so they can not only steal my dog but also all of my valuables?
> 
> *Please, constructive criticism only. My question was only: Is it better to crate him inside, or give him a comfortable enclosed area outside?* I understand he is still young and that was one of my concerns.. which is WHY I even asked the question! This is my first round with a puppy this young (not with a dog in general) so I'm trying to get a feel of what age they are ready to do certain things. I really would love a reliable dog sitter that I can trust but that will take time for me to find, as we've only lived in our neighborhood for 6 months. All of our neighbors/friends in the area have full time jobs, dogs, AND kids. I'm sure during the summer I can get one of their kids to help out, but I am trying to find the best solution for January.
> 
> Your opinion is fine, but please oh please try to stick to the topic and only provide helpful non-degrading information!


It is good that there are so many posts in response to this thread and that you ask for constrtuctive criticism. Unfortunately I am going to say that neither crating all day or leaving in yard all day are options which you should be considering. 
What I am going to say may sound "mean" as some people are fond of saying, but I do not think you should have got a puppy in the first place, because your circumstances/lifestyle are not suitable, but it is done now. I also think you are being a bit dramatic. There are alternatives to giving up your jobb or putting him in a kill centre. It doesn't have to be one or the other. I personally would not leave my dog alone in a yard all day - and I also would not leave a dog or puppy stuck in a crate all day and this is why I am saying that probably you should not have got the pup in the first place. A dog is a social creature and should not be on its own for the best part of its waking hours. How will it be able to learn the things it needs to know about which will make it into a good companion if you are not there to help it learn. A puppy needs considerable input and you cannot do that if you are not there. 
Now you have the puppy I think the best thing you can do is find someone to provide the things you cannot provide whilst you are at work, i.e. company, walking stimulation, training, etc. This will obviously entail a cost, but for the sake of the dog longer term if you are not there then somebody else needs to be involved with its care. 
I am sorry, but thinking longer term - the next 10+ years, I do not think it is much of a life for a dog to have to spend the major part of its life on its own. Animals in a zoo have a better life than that. 
I realise that this post will attract hositiity from some, but this is my opinion and what I believe makes sense and the OP did ask for constructive criticisim (which is not always going to be positive).


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## Deber (Aug 23, 2011)

Calistar, Aerolar, I have read this through more than once. It is not that your opinions are not welcome to me, but the words you use. I work with the public and know there are many ways to convey your thoughts without crawling on your soapbox and possibly offending others. Kindness comes from the heart and we have millions of words to use that can convey our thoughts and feelings and stay possitive and offer constructive alternatives. 

It is never condusive to a discussion to bring up what we SHOULD have done, but rather what IMHO would be better. The past is the past, life's roads lead us forwards and it is what we do with our steps that dictate our outcome. In my honest opionion I find both your use of words hurtful and the ending offering suggestions that seem empty, they don't make up for the hurt you said before. I find little help in your long posts and don't see anything in your words that tell me you know full of what you speak..ie dog life experiences. 

Thank you for your imput, but I also work, and have fosters on occassion. They are doing very well thank you and are loved very much. For my bunch, this is a home where love abounds...we are doing fantastically! The OP came in for advice, which you have both given. Thank you.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Please know that you do not need to be a stay at home owner to raise a beautifully well mannered and happy, yes happy, dog. 

I should have pointed out in my other posts that my dogs have the companionship of each other - I have always had a multiple dog household so I do not need to worry about doggy socialization or day care or those dog parks. 

A well constructed area for your dog is perfectly acceptable, whether it is inside or outside as long as the pup can relieve himself and is relatively safe - that is, he cannot dig under, there are no wires and a minimum of other items that are not perfectly dog safe. If I needed to keep my dogs inside before they were old enough for free range, I would have the crate or more likely an ex-pen near a window with one of those tot finder stickers in case of a fire. 

Dogs sleep most of the day. They are most active in the mornings and in the evenings -which perfectly aligns to a regular shift schedule.



aerolor said:


> It is good that there are so many posts in response to this thread and that you ask for constrtuctive criticism. Unfortunately I am going to say that neither crating all day or leaving in yard all day are options which you should be considering.
> What I am going to say may sound "mean" as some people are fond of saying, but I do not think you should have got a puppy in the first place, because your circumstances/lifestyle are not suitable, but it is done now. I also think you are being a bit dramatic. There are alternatives to giving up your jobb or putting him in a kill centre. It doesn't have to be one or the other. I personally would not leave my dog alone in a yard all day - and I also would not leave a dog or puppy stuck in a crate all day and this is why I am saying that probably you should not have got the pup in the first place. A dog is a social creature and should not be on its own for the best part of its waking hours. How will it be able to learn the things it needs to know about which will make it into a good companion if you are not there to help it learn. A puppy needs considerable input and you cannot do that if you are not there.
> Now you have the puppy I think the best thing you can do is find someone to provide the things you cannot provide whilst you are at work, i.e. company, walking stimulation, training, etc. This will obviously entail a cost, but for the sake of the dog longer term if you are not there then somebody else needs to be involved with its care.
> I am sorry, but thinking longer term - the next 10+ years, I do not think it is much of a life for a dog to have to spend the major part of its life on its own. Animals in a zoo have a better life than that.
> I realise that this post will attract hositiity from some, but this is my opinion and what I believe makes sense and the OP did ask for constructive criticisim (which is not always going to be positive).


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

Calistar said:


> *But I have read books* by several puppy behaviorists .


Ahhhhhh, HERE'S the problem! Is this the total of your training background?

For crying out loud, I was home all day with Penny. I didn't spend a lot of time training her, didn't even work at it every day. She sure wouldn't win an obedience class; in fact we would be the comedy show, but she's a very well-behaved girl despite her lack of training. Just because I was home all day, doesn't mean I fit your criteria for what a good dog mom is. And just because someone is gone all day doesn't mean their dog is neglected or untrained.

To Aspens's mom: 

I like Quiz's idea of part in and part out. Maybe not now but in a few months when the house breaking is a little more establised. Especially by the time hot weather comes back. I don't think you have to be running home at lunch for ever.


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## aerolor (May 27, 2011)

Deber said:


> Calistar, Aerolar, I have read this through more than once. It is not that your opinions are not welcome to me, but the words you use. I work with the public and know there are many ways to convey your thoughts without crawling on your soapbox and possibly offending others. Kindness comes from the heart and we have millions of words to use that can convey our thoughts and feelings and stay possitive and offer constructive alternatives.
> 
> It is never condusive to a discussion to bring up what we SHOULD have done, but rather what IMHO would be better. The past is the past, life's roads lead us forwards and it is what we do with our steps that dictate our outcome. In my honest opionion I find both your use of words hurtful and the ending offering suggestions that seem empty, they don't make up for the hurt you said before. I find little help in your long posts and don't see anything in your words that tell me you know full of what you speak..ie dog life experiences.
> 
> Thank you for your imput, but I also work, and have fosters on occassion. They are doing very well thank you and are loved very much. For my bunch, this is a home where love abounds...we are doing fantastically! The OP came in for advice, which you have both given. Thank you.


Fair enough Deber in the name of being conducive - substitute SHOULD for IMHO if it sounds better. The past is also the past and I did mean that when I said "it is done now" they have the puppy. The future years life for the dog/puppy are what is important now - and it is not an empty solution to say that if the OP can make allowances and adaptations to give her pup/dog what it needs then that is the way forward. I do maintain that IMHO for a dog/pup to have to spend a large part of its life on its own, either in a crate or outside in a yard is not a good life for a dog - our dogs are worth so much more, although I am aware that thousands of dogs do lead much of their lives in back yards or in crates. Sorry if it offends, but it is what I believe IMHO and that is what it is my honest opinion - something which we are all entitled to whether people want to hear it or not.


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

I think there are as wide a range of living situations for dogs as there are families. And it's fine to say one is 'better' than another, we grade things all the time. better/worse; this/that. 

The problem comes when a safe, loving home with kindness, attention AND training is deemed unsuitable because it is not at the top of someone's personal scale of aproval.

I don't criticize people who center their entire lives around their dogs nor do I criticize people who have to spend a large part of each day away from home earning biscuits and toys. 

I personally don't think it's wrong for working people to have a dog; sheesh if that were the case the unwanted population would triple or quadruple! 

I know Penny wants to live here even if, at age 10, we had to start leaving her all day; something she's never had to deal with. She'd still want to be with us.



aerolor said:


> Fair enough Deber in the name of being conducive - substitute SHOULD for IMHO if it sounds better. The past is also the past and I did mean that when I said "it is done now" they have the puppy. The future years life for the dog/puppy are what is important now - and it is not an empty solution to say that if the OP can make allowances and adaptations to give her pup/dog what it needs then that is the way forward. I do maintain that IMHO for a dog/pup to have to spend a large part of its life on its own, either in a crate or outside in a yard is not a good life for a dog - dogs asre worth so much more, although I am aware that thousands of dogs do lead lives like that. Sorry if it offends, but it is what I believe IMHO and that it what it is my honest opinion - something which we are all entitled to.


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## aerolor (May 27, 2011)

Sunrise said:


> Please know that you do not need to be a stay at home owner to raise a beautifully well mannered and happy, yes happy, dog.
> 
> I should have pointed out in my other posts that my dogs have the companionship of each other - I have always had a multiple dog household so I do not need to worry about doggy socialization or day care or those dog parks.
> 
> ...


I agree Sunrise - you don't have to stay at home all day to have a happy, well-adjusted dog. We all need to be able to leave our dogs safely for *some* of the time during the day whether you go to work or not. However puppies and young dogs do need to have quite considerable imput and if you are out all day and every day, IMHO, it is very difficult to provide the environment a young dog needs unless someone else can help. None of my dogs have slept most of the day, except when elderly - they nap on and off, but they are awake active when given the opportunity and choice.


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## Florabora22 (Nov 30, 2008)

I was at the emergency vet one day, and pulled into the parking lot just as another car screeched in. A woman jumped out holding a small bundle, and she was crying. They rushed inside and I watched them hand off the bundle to a vet technician. The woman kept saying "I only left him outside for a minute, just a minute!" When I was finally able to see a vet I inquired into the bundle. It had been a small dog. A hawk had apparently considered it prey and had latched onto its back. The vet tech told me that most of the dog's spinal cord was exposed when they received it, and that the dog didn't make it.

I would never leave a puppy, or a small dog, outside alone for extended periods of time. I will never leave my grown dog outside for extended periods of time, but I think if you have a proper enclosure that would effectively eliminate the chance of a wild animal getting at your dog, and that you provide proper shelter and water, then it's perfectly acceptable to leave your dog outside.

But you never know what can happen.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Sadly, even if the woman had been outside with her dog, she would not have been able to save the dog. Have you ever seen how fast a hawk can swoop? I have, and if you have small dogs you should consider some form of cover even for an inside dog who goes outside for bathroom breaks.


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## Calistar (Dec 13, 2011)

Removed by poster


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## natali861 (Dec 22, 2011)

Please stop responding to this thread Calistar. I think you have made your point and have offered all the advice you have, so no need to continue arguing and fighting only to go in circles. Thanks for your input and I'll certainly consider what you and everyone else had to say. I'll come up with the safest and most comfortable alternative for my puppy 

For pictures of Aspen - I have two threads with pictures! "Hello from Texas!" in intro and "Rescued 4 month old puppy - Mix or Full Golden?" in general. I'll also attach here what pictures I do have on my work computer... but he is growing every day!


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

He' so cute! From these pictures he looks either full or mostly Golden. Probably it will be clearer when he's an adult. But no matter...you've got a sweet, adorable puppy.


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## natali861 (Dec 22, 2011)

Oh I guess those ARE the same pictures I posted in my previous threads haha... I need to send myself some new pictures of him I guess. Almost all of them are on my phone since I can rarely get to my camera in time to catch his quick poses 

Here is one my brother sent me, from when we visited my parents over Christmas. That is Aspen sleeping next to our 11yr old golden Chevas.. BEST BUDS!


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I was also going to suggest rigging something up so he has a small area indoors and a small area outdoors with a doggy door to get between the two.

For my own younger dog, who I cannot trust loose in the house or even with access to a full room, I got an expen and instead of putting it in a circle I opened it up and stretched it out from wall to wall, so he has half of a room to use. I have an open crate and a dog bed in there for him. That works for us, but my work day is not as long as yours and I don't think I would ask a dog that young to hold his bladder that long. So I would suggest either doing the inside/outside thing, or keeping him in an area like I did, but adding in an indoor potty area for him (which I myself would only use as a last resort).

Just making him an area outside is an option too, but not one that I would be comfortable enough with for my own dogs unless I could really fix up something super nice, like what Sunrise has.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

aerolor said:


> It is good that there are so many posts in response to this thread and that you ask for constrtuctive criticism. Unfortunately I am going to say that neither crating all day or leaving in yard all day are options which you should be considering.
> What I am going to say may sound "mean" as some people are fond of saying, *but I do not think you should have got a puppy in the first place, because your circumstances/lifestyle are not suitable,* but it is done now. I also think you are being a bit dramatic. There are alternatives to giving up your jobb or putting him in a kill centre. It doesn't have to be one or the other. I personally would not leave my dog alone in a yard all day - and I also would not leave a dog or puppy stuck in a crate all day and this is why I am saying that probably you should not have got the pup in the first place. A dog is a social creature and should not be on its own for the best part of its waking hours. How will it be able to learn the things it needs to know about which will make it into a good companion if you are not there to help it learn. A puppy needs considerable input and you cannot do that if you are not there.
> Now you have the puppy I think the best thing you can do is find someone to provide the things you cannot provide whilst you are at work, i.e. company, walking stimulation, training, etc. This will obviously entail a cost, but for the sake of the dog longer term if you are not there then somebody else needs to be involved with its care.
> *I am sorry, but thinking longer term - the next 10+ years, I do not think it is much of a life for a dog to have to spend the major part of its life* *on its own.* *Animals in a zoo have a better life than that. *
> I realise that this post will attract hositiity from some, but this is my opinion and what I believe makes sense and the OP did ask for constructive criticisim (which is not always going to be positive).


This is sadly the mentality of some rescue organizations unfortunately
We have worked full time with both our precious pups. And I can *guarantee* if you met me and my dogs you wouldn't know whether I was a career woman or stay at home mom 

I won't get hostile with your second highlighted comment. However it is rather insulting to say the least. Not even sure how you can even justify saying animals in a zoo have a better life

Everyone's situation is different. Everyone needs to decide what will work for their own situation. The important thing is the op wants to keep her pup safe whether inside or out. Otherwise she wouldn't be here. Sometimes people can get carried away with overprotectiveness that can harm even the best dog and child.....this I have see personally......not JMHO


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

A little birdy told me that today is Natalie's birthday. Wishing you a great birthday and day fun-filled day with Aspen! and Many More!


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## Deber (Aug 23, 2011)

Nat if it is you Birthday as WISE Penny's Mom said, then Happy, Happy Birthday!


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## baumgartml16 (Jun 19, 2011)

Happy Birthday! Aspen is so adorable. I just want to cuddle his fluffiness. Enjoy that, it goes away fast!


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## Luv4puppiessk (Sep 30, 2011)

I left both of my dogs outside when they were around 3-4 months old. But, I do have a gate that closes off the side yard but still leaves a good amount of backyard for them to play and poop but literally everything is gated off so they can't even get into much but the grass. They also have a dog house out there and a doggie door into the garage that is also gated off with a bed, carpeted floor and water. Also my gate to my backyard is locked so that if someone were to try to get in it (like the meter guy or someone like that) it would stop them. but of course someone could simply jump the fence but I live in a nice city and nice neighborhood so there has never been a problem


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## monarchs_joy (Aug 13, 2011)

I thought I would chime in on a sitter/walker in the event that you consider this. There are some really good ones out there that do it for a living. Our Boxer has some health issues that necessitated we find a sitter, but now that we've had one for years I don't really want to live without one. Our last three have been insured and bonded (military-we move a lot). We found our current one through a vet, interviewed her, checked her references, and gave her a trial run. She's completely awesome and when we move again at some point I wish we could take her with us. Truthfully, it's always a bit nerve wracking at first having someone I don't know in my house, but the experience has been great with every sitter we've had. Our sitter checks in on our girls, feeds lunch, takes them to potty and plays with them, and then sends me a text. I don't worry anymore whether everyone is ok, if anyone has eaten a shoe, if the cat has eaten a dog, if the house has burnt down, etc. Our sitter charges us $10 a day to come by, which is about the same that our sitter in Richmond, VA charged. Everyone has to find the situation that works the best for their family. For us, a sitter has been great.


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## aerolor (May 27, 2011)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> This is sadly the mentality of some rescue organizations unfortunately
> We have worked full time with both our precious pups. And I can *guarantee* if you met me and my dogs you wouldn't know whether I was a career woman or stay at home mom
> 
> I won't get hostile with your second highlighted comment. However it is rather insulting to say the least. Not even sure how you can even justify saying animals in a zoo have a better life
> ...


Sorry Wyatt's mommy, but as I understand the OP this pup is soon to be left on its own for 10 hours per day and I would hope that the majority of people would think that this is far too long and provision does need to be made by someone for the puppy while out at work, whether it is decided to be kept inside in a crate or outside. 
It might seem insulting to say zoo animals would have a better life, but at least they are not left on their own, to their own devices, all day long. However, I was thinking of animals being in cages and in confined environments and it would take too long to explain the connection on this thread and it may seem a bit of an irrelevance, so I apologise for posting it. 

I am not sure who you are speaking about when you say "sometimes people get carried away with overprotectiveness that can harm even the best dog and child." All I can say is that if you are referring to me and thinking I am being too overprotective (even though you don't know me) you could not be more mistaken. 

To finish - any decent rescue organisation would not want to see the young puppy rescues they have been responsible for left on their own for 10 hours each day in a new home and so if people tell them they are out at work all day and the pup will be alone, I think it is perfectly legitimate to say no.


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## Calistar (Dec 13, 2011)

Removed by poster


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

aerolor said:


> Sorry Wyatt's mommy, but as I understand the OP this pup is soon to be left on its own for 10 hours per day and I would hope that the majority of people would think that this is far too long and provision does need to be made by someone for the puppy while out at work, whether it is decided to be kept inside in a crate or outside.
> It might seem insulting to say zoo animals would have a better life, but at least they are not left on their own, to their own devices, all day long. However, I was thinking of animals being in cages and in confined environments and it would take too long to explain the connection on this thread and it may seem a bit of an irrelevance, so I apologise for posting it.
> 
> I am not sure who you are speaking about when you say "sometimes people get carried away with overprotectiveness that can harm even the best dog and child." All I can say is that if you are referring to me and thinking I am being too overprotective (even though you don't know me) you could not be more mistaken.
> ...


 
No need for any explanation in regards to the zoo remark.....it was insulting and totally unjustified IMHO. Other than being in a safe comfortable environment with fresh water and a means to eliminate......what devices are you referring too? Love, play, exercise and affection? Which I'm sure they get tons of when mom and dad are home....if their anything like most of us who have careers. Dogs live on schedules and learn these schedules in no time and adapt. The op sounds pretty thoughtful to me....afterall she is asking what others do and how it works for them.
I am not referring to anyone on these boards in the overprotective comment.....I was referring to my experience with such people

Rescues lose alot of good homes for their dogs of all ages due to this rule...shame. They lost out on our home. What was ironic is the person that came and interviewed us worked longer hours than us and lived in a condo with 3 rescue dogs......go figure!

No 2 people are alike, no 2 dogs are alike, the op knows best how her dog will adapt once she puts a plan in place. Regardless of how any of us "feel"


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Calistar said:


> Sadly aerolor you and I seem to be in the overwhelming minority on this issue and even sadder is that most who do not agree with our position don't even want it expressed even though constructive criticism was asked for.


Sad How so Express away


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

I didn't read anywhere that *CRITICISM*, constructive or otherwise, was asked for. OP asked for ideas, suggestions; not criticism. She has received enought to work with, including yours.



Calistar said:


> Sadly aerolor you and I seem to be in the overwhelming minority on this issue and even sadder is that most who do not agree with our position don't even want it expressed even though constructive criticism was asked for.


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

My thoughts exactly! 



Wyatt's mommy said:


> Sad How so Express away


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

Perhaps aerolor and calistar should start another thread on the detrimental effects of working parents and puppies. Seems more appropriate to take their discussion to their own thread rather than hijack on someone else's. imho 

And please, feel free to express all you want. I won't say what I was about to add to that.


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## Calistar (Dec 13, 2011)

I must apologize. I failed to understand that the complete breadth of dog wisdom in the universe was already present here. How shameful of me to try to introduce a differing concept that was not already within that universe. 

I am humbly remorseful and as such have removed every post I made here. In order not to offend the OP those of you that felt it necessary to chide me for offering those opinions and in the process copied what I said should really edit your posts to remove what I said so no one else gets the idea that they might actually have an idea that does not already exist here here or that new ideas from the outside are really needed or appreciated.

You can be sure that I will tread more cautiously when considering treading on your sacred grounds.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

As far as a dog walker... when a friend of mine went into the business, I told her to get bonded, etc. She has saved many clients their pipes in the Winter by noticing if the furnace isn't working, etc. My sister did have an issue with a dog walker taking precription meds... she was fired. Her current dog walker is bonded and their are no problems.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

hmmmmmmmmmmm... 



Calistar said:


> I must apologize. I failed to understand that the complete breadth of dog wisdom in the universe was already present here. How shameful of me to try to introduce a differing concept that was not already within that universe.
> 
> I am humbly remorseful and as such have removed every post I made here. In order not to offend the OP those of you that felt it necessary to chide me for offering those opinions and in the process copied what I said should really edit your posts to remove what I said so no one else gets the idea that they might actually have an idea that does not already exist here here or that new ideas from the outside are really needed or appreciated.
> 
> You can be sure that I will tread more cautiously when considering treading on your sacred grounds.


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

Sorry, Calistar. You have made no apology. Your sarcasm is offensive.



Calistar said:


> I must apologize. I failed to understand that the complete breadth of dog wisdom in the universe was already present here. How shameful of me to try to introduce a differing concept that was not already within that universe.
> 
> I am humbly remorseful and as such have removed every post I made here. In order not to offend the OP those of you that felt it necessary to chide me for offering those opinions and in the process copied what I said should really edit your posts to remove what I said so no one else gets the idea that they might actually have an idea that does not already exist here here or that new ideas from the outside are really needed or appreciated.
> 
> You can be sure that I will tread more cautiously when considering treading on your sacred grounds.


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## Calistar (Dec 13, 2011)

That is your opinion and your are gladly welcome to it as I am mine. But once again you seem not to like opinions differing from your own. How do you presume to know what is my heart?


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

I strongly suggest you start your own thread. You might title: "why working parents shouldn't leave young dogs all day".

There's nothing against the forum rules about starting your thread and expressing your opinions and theories all you want. I think we would all love it if you did. You are definitely swimming against the current in this thread, but then you seem to like the workout.:bowl::uhoh::doh:


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

It is not what you say, but how you say it.


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## Calistar (Dec 13, 2011)

I apologized. I removed my posts. So who is it that is highjacking this thread now with such sanctimonious all knowing wisdom? 

Let me say goodbye to all of you. Hopefully if we cross paths on another thread you will be in a more congenial less self righteous mood.

I am returning control of this thread to the OP. If you feel it necessary to still have an attitude rather than returning to the original subject, then that is your problem.


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## aerolor (May 27, 2011)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> No 2 people are alike, no 2 dogs are alike, the op knows best how her dog will adapt once she puts a plan in place. Regardless of how any of us "feel"


You are correct - no two people and no two dogs are alike. The OP will need to find a satisfactory long term plan and I hope she finds a solution to her problem. To return to the original question about crate indoors or place in the yard outside I stand by what I originally said and that was that IMHO neither solution is what I would want for a puppy of mine. 

I will end my contribution to this post now - it is never my intention to be deliberately antagonistic towards anyone and I am very well aware how out of hand this thread is getting. Each to his own will have to do for this one. "Beam me up Scottie."


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Calistar said:


> I apologized. I removed my posts. So who is it that is highjacking this thread now with such sanctimonious all knowing wisdom?
> 
> Let me say goodbye to all of you. Hopefully if we cross paths on another thread you will be in a more congenial less self righteous mood.
> 
> I am returning control of this thread to the OP. If you feel it necessary to still have an attitude rather than returning to the original subject, then that is your problem.


Removing your posts - that does not resolve anything. But as mentioned this forum does encourage polite and non-attacking discussions of varying viewpoints. You shared your viewpoints and perhaps might consider starting a new thread concerning your views and expertise in puppy rearing.


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## Calistar (Dec 13, 2011)

Sunrise said:


> Removing your posts - that does not resolve anything. But as mentioned this forum does encourage polite and non-attacking discussions of varying viewpoints. You shared your viewpoints and perhaps might consider starting a new thread concerning your views and expertise in puppy rearing.


Things only got non-polite when people who disagreed with my point of view decided to get hostile. So if removing the posts still leaves peoples feelings bruised they may want to think about how they initially reacted. I have done all I intend to do to make amends on this matter. A few others here should get off their holier than thou soap boxes and do so as well. They also need to learn to discuss issues with those they do not agree with in a little more civil tone.


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## jagmanbrg (Jan 4, 2011)

Calistar said:


> Things only got non-polite when people who disagreed with my point of view decided to get hostile. So if removing the posts still leaves peoples feelings bruised they may want to think about how they initially reacted. I have done all I intend to do to make amends on this matter. A few others here should get off their holier than thou soap boxes and do so as well. They also need to learn to discuss issues with those they do not agree with in a little more civil tone.



You still don't get it, do you?:no:


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## Calistar (Dec 13, 2011)

Then why don't you 'splain it to me?


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## Capt Jack (Dec 29, 2011)

Some folks may not agree & I don't know your area but we have a wireless electric fence for Jack & we love it.He stays outside all day with the garage door opened a bit so he can get in out of the weather.The best thing about the cordless fence is it's adjustable & portable.We take it camping with us & let him come out of the camper with us without even a leash


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Calistar said:


> Then why don't you 'splain it to me?


I'll 'splain it to you. Your words and phrasing conveyed a derogatory and judgemental attitude, with no consideration for the OP's feelings. It's called being rude. That's what you don't get. 

You can have a different view point, even be totally in disagreement, but do so without being rude and inconsiderate.


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

Yes! This!



mylissyk said:


> I'll 'splain it to you. Your words and phrasing conveyed a derogatory and judgemental attitude, with no consideration for the OP's feelings. It's called being rude. That's what you don't get.
> 
> You can have a different view point, even be totally in disagreement, but do so without being rude and inconsiderate.


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## Calistar (Dec 13, 2011)

Well I have re-read my original post several times . Until some self proclaimed experts jumped me for even daring to offer another alternative I was anything but rude. However once jumped, I will admit I was no nicer than those that started their attack. You get what you give. For instance, jagmanbrg offered little on this thread other than to attack what I had said mid way through the conversation. The OP asked for advice which some interpreted as vote for my option A or B. I saw it as an invitation to provide general comments. While the OP has subsequently made it clear she did not want other options it was not clear in her initial post. But by then the attackers had begun their assault and it became a different conversation. It seems some took offense to my comparison to a puppy and a 2-3 year old child. As I said at that time developmentally, they are similar and both are in the prime time for learning. When 10 hours passes with no training, opportunities are lost and the puppy is left to unlearn what he learned or to develop bad habits. That is why and another suggested a doggier day care or a doggie walker to fill in these gaps. Some tried to say that they did this with their puppies only to find their puppies were 8 months of age. Frankly what I said was more than valid and was offered to the OP as another perspective. The subsequent attacks by others who disagreed with me simply offering that they had or had not done something were laughable since we know that animals and humans will turn out differently even exposed to the same environment. However, that does not relieve adults from trying to provide the best environment possible. It was aerola who clearly pointed out that the OP should have likely considered these things BEFORE buying a puppy but they now needed to deal with the situation they had. That is why she agreed that some type of intermediate daytime care was the best solution. But she saw what was happening to those who were not following the group think and quickly backed away. I have said several times I was not trying to be ugly in my initial post . But the attacks still came and at some point I will admit I decided to put no more effort into being nice than those who attacked. Now if you see it differently we will just have to agree to disagree because I have lived this for several days and re-read my posts and know my intent. I will say this, if you attack me rudely on any thread as has been done here, you can expect to be responded to with "the same derogatory and judgemental attitude" you offer. But let me assure you that if you are nice, I will also be nice. But if you choose to play ugly as some have here, you will get what you give tenfold over.

I say this because one of those who took the lead on the attacks here, felt the need to do so on another thread. I remained pleasant there for she displayed better than I ever could have how she has no respect for the opinions of others. That was what started this mess combined with people deciding that when faced with the option of assuming a poster was being nice or ugly they immediately assumed the worst.


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## jagmanbrg (Jan 4, 2011)

Calistar said:


> For instance, jagmanbrg offered little on this thread other than to attack what I had said mid way through the conversation.


I apologize if I "attacked" you, but I do agree that I have offered little to this thread, definitely not as much as you. It is over ten pages now


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## Elisabeth Kazup (Aug 23, 2008)

Wow! And I suppose YOU get to determine just what ugly is and then give free rein to the 10-fold. Sounds like a threat from a bully, to me...just sayin'....

" But if you choose to play ugly as some have here, you will get what you give tenfold over."


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