# Sammy, Am. CH. Misty Morn's Sunset CD TD WC OS SDHF



## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

Looking at the COI and genetic information for various Goldens (including my Gracie) on k9data I often see "Sammy" _Pedigree: Am. CH. Misty Morn's Sunset CD TD WC OS SDHF _as one of the top 5 ancestors contributing to COI. Looking at his entry on k9data, I see his picture and some other information including under Honorifcs: "OS:133, #2 producer in breed hist.,#1 Golden 1970". Does the OS:133 indicate that he had 133 offspring whose titles would qualify him for the OS? What does #2 producer in breed history mean . . . . 2nd highest producer of champion offspring? Does anyone have more information about Sammy?


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## BlazenGR (Jan 12, 2012)

Sammy had over 130 offspring that qualified him for GRCA Outstanding Sire status, based on the qualification requirements in place at that time. When people throw out things like "#2 highest producer of CH offspring" it is a little harder to quantify, because the person who entered it didn't quantify it. AKC only? AKC + CKC? CH level? (so UD, OTCH, MACH, etc). Obviously Sammy was a very influential dog in the breed, and his impact is being felt even today, as well as that of his 1/2 brother Charlie (Cummings' Gold-Rush Charlie). When it comes right down to it, the impact of their father, AmCH Sunset's Happy Duke, is more important even though these dogs are starting to "fall off" the COI 12 generation charts.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Blazen,
Which show dogs in the future do you see showing up on COI's? Kirby - Rush Hill's Haagen-Dazs? Anybody else that jumps out at you?


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## BlazenGR (Jan 12, 2012)

It depends Stacey. I am always looking at stud dog pedigrees, and what strikes me is that COIs are such a small part of the picture. I looked at a dog last night that has Kirby 6 times in a 5 gen pedigree, and Casey (Goodtime's Best Case Scenario) an additional 2 times in the 5th generation (and Kirby is his sire), and his COI is only 16.64 for 12 generations (I expected higher). When you look at a 5 gen of the grandparents for this dog, you see the same dogs over and over again, with little quirks thrown in here and there. I wish I had software to make it easy to see how many times the same dog appears in a 10 or 12 gen pedigree, because I think people would be very surprised. The picture is so much bigger than just the COI, but at the same time, I think we all need to be aware that the COI is probably not telling us as much as we think.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

I look at my own former show bitch and see her pedigree is full of all the usuals. That's the problem. The usuals. There is nothing really new out there is there? Unless we import from Europe or somewhere else. But then we have to look at other issues from those imports - temperament, birdiness, bidability, etc. and make sure we aren't losing all those important things. So yes I agree, COI is only one part of the picture. My girl is: Pedigree: Wiseman Wildfire Grayling Fish On CD RN JH WC


Field dogs have the same problem. Almost all US field trial dogs have resulted from one breeding: Pedigree: AFC Yankee's Smoke'n Red Devil OS x Pedigree: FC Windbreakers Razzmatazz OD


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## ArchersMom (May 22, 2013)

Alaska7133 said:


> I look at my own former show bitch and see her pedigree is full of all the usuals. That's the problem. The usuals. There is nothing really new out there is there? Unless we import from Europe or somewhere else. But then we have to look at other issues from those imports - temperament, birdiness, bidability, etc. and make sure we aren't losing all those important things. So yes I agree, COI is only one part of the picture. My girl is: Pedigree: Wiseman Wildfire Grayling Fish On CD RN JH WC
> 
> 
> Field dogs have the same problem. Almost all US field trial dogs have resulted from one breeding: Pedigree: AFC Yankee's Smoke'n Red Devil OS x Pedigree: FC Windbreakers Razzmatazz OD


It almost astounds me how influential and wide spread a popular stud can be. I pulled up the pedigree of a Canadian field dog I'm interested in breeding Teal to and those two dogs are number 2 and 4 of the top contributors to his COI.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

This is from Undeniable Goldens. Lots of interesting stats there.

http://undeniablegoldens.com/files/TopProducers/TopCHSires.txt


1 CH RUSH HILL'S HAAGEN-DAZS CDX JH AX OAJ WCX VCX OS SDHF 5 /17/1989 Male 156 CH Offspring

2 CH MISTY MORN'S SUNSET CD TD WC OS SDHF 9 /26/1966 Male 119 CH Offspring

3 CH FAERA'S FUTURE CLASSIC OS 1 /31/1990 Male 118 CH Offspring

4 CH ASTERLING'S WILD BLUE YONDER OS SDHF 6 /6 /1988 Male 116 CH Offspring

5 CH SUMMITS MR. BOJANGLES OS SDHF 7 /10/1998 Male 108 CH Offspring

6 CH ASTERLING GO GETM GANGBUSTER OS SDHF 1 /6 /1985 Male 102 CH Offspring

7 CH GOODTIME'S BEST CASE SCENARIO CD JH WC VCX OS SDHF 4 /16/1993 Male 94 CH Offspring

8 CH ASTERLING'S BUSTER KEATON OS 1 /6 /1985 Male 86 CH Offspring

9 CH WOCHICA'S OKEECHOBEE JAKE OS SDHF 4 /3 /1969 Male 70 CH Offspring

10 CH GOLDWING TRUE BEAR OS SDHF 11/9 /1977 Male 64 CH Offspring

Linda Bell of Sorrento Goldens does genetic influence tables, which calculate how many times and in what generations, a dog appears. I use those ore than I do straight COI.

An example is listed here

http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com...ng-breeding-practices-using-k9data-com-2.html


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Does anybody know of an available conformation sire in the U.S., that does not have any Charlie or Sammy? (None at all.)


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Good question!


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Alaska7133 said:


> Field dogs have the same problem. Almost all US field trial dogs have resulted from one breeding: Pedigree: AFC Yankee's Smoke'n Red Devil OS x Pedigree: FC Windbreakers Razzmatazz OD



There are a number of dogs that don't include that particular pairing. They may have Devil or Razz in their pedigree but not necessarily that specific pairing. The bottleneck dogs for us are Kiowa II and Barty.


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## BlazenGR (Jan 12, 2012)

Of course they are out there, just not easy to find. And even if you did breed to them, you might not get anything to show in conformation for the first generation because they are almost all going to be imports, such as this Australian import:

Pedigree: AmGCH/CanGCH Goldtreve Sydney Traveler

And if they aren't imports, they may be a generation or two from an import. While I am not against doing such a breeding, I will not breed to a dog that I have not had my hands on and could watch move, in person. Pretty much not negotiable.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

I met the owner of that boy last year at GRCA. She said people were pretty shocked when she brought him up to the US. My friend Florence bred her bitch to him and has been very happy with the results. 

At least we aren't in a small world like FCRs or Tollers where there are so few dogs to breed to.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

BlazenGR said:


> Of course they are out there, just not easy to find. And even if you did breed to them, you might not get anything to show in conformation for the first generation because they are almost all going to be imports, such as this Australian import:


No, perhaps I wasn't as clear as I could have been. I was looking for a U.S. bred conformation Sire, from U.S. or Can ancestry, that contains no Sammy or Charlie whatsoever in the pedigree. 

I have imports available, so I'm not interested in chasing imports.


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## TheZ's (Jun 13, 2011)

Swampcollie said:


> Does anybody know of an available conformation sire in the U.S., that does not have any Charlie or Sammy? (None at all.)


That's something to think about.

Does anybody remember seeing either of these dogs competing? What was there about them that made them such popular sires?

Here's Sammy's picture from k9data. How would he do in the breed ring today?


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## BlazenGR (Jan 12, 2012)

Okay, then this dog: Pedigree: Beau Geste If Then Else
Beau Geste If Then Else

He is Manny's father. Manny has UK/Australian import stuff right behind his dam, but breeding to his sire brings you right back to a lot of the older stuff without Sammy or Charlie. Wondering if there is any frozen?

But again, I have not even seen Manny, so would not consider breeding to his father. I think that is where we all get into trouble---we breed to dogs we haven't seen based on someone else's opinion or the results of their offspring in the breed ring. Probably the worst 2 reasons in the world to breed to a dog.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Here's Manny's pedigree: Pedigree: HRCH BISS Am.CH Beau Geste Being Ramiroz UD MH WCX** DDHF VCX

But without that Euro influence in his pedigree we would be back to the usual bloodlines.


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## BlazenGR (Jan 12, 2012)

Alaska7133 said:


> Here's Manny's pedigree: Pedigree: HRCH BISS Am.CH Beau Geste Being Ramiroz UD MH WCX** DDHF VCX
> 
> But without that Euro influence in his pedigree we would be back to the usual bloodlines.


Not really. There is no Sammy or Charlie there: 
Am./Can. CH. Trowsnest Whirlwind UD WC Can CDX WC Am./Can. OS	0.83%
Beckwith's Chickasaw Jingle OD	0.37%
Deremar Ameche Liberator OS	0.22%
Am./Can./Mex. CH. Cal-Vo's Happy Ambassador Am./Can. CD OS SDHF	0.18%
Eng. Ch. Sansue Camrose Phoenix	0.18%

Granted, we do pick up some UK import dogs pretty quickly, but with these numbers:
10-generation COI	2.63% (✓ less than breed average of 8.80%)
12-generation COI	3.22%
...I am okay with that.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

This dog, Beau Geste Rough Magic, has Sammy behind her

Genetic information for Beau Geste This Rough Magic

And Manny's sire goes back to her. Almost impossible not to find a US pedigree without Sammy in it.


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## BlazenGR (Jan 12, 2012)

You're right Linda. I can't believe I overlooked the obvious through Adam (Asterling's Last Hurrah). Should have seen that. 

But you're right about the other too. Almost impossible to avoid Sunset's Happy Duke unless you go to an import.


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