# Obedience Changing...



## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I was actually looking up something completely unrelated from a show and was startled to find Conner's name in the results. I just copied the first 15 dogs' results. This is back between after Conner had earned the CDX and before we started for the UD. But it reminded me of how competitive this area used to be with such large classes. Every single dog on this list except Conner went on to get their OTCH if they didn't already have it and all were NOI invitees. There were nearly 40 dogs in the class that year, I remember the next year was similar (and Conner was in a run off for 4th place whoo-hoo but lost), but that same trial this past year had to cut a day off and hire two fewer judges because entries are so low now. I am scared for the future of obedience. I will be very sad if it dies before I do! I want trials to look like this again around here. Sure it was cut throat competitive, but the challenge is what makes it fun! 


*Open B*
1 OTCH Breakwater Ice Skater UDX36 JH, Golden Retriever, 200.0 
2 CH Highland's It's My Time UDX2 TDX, Border Collie, 199.5 
3 OTCH Sunfire's Gift Of Freedom UDX4 RN, Golden Retriever, 199.0 
4 OTCH Tanbark's Who's The Boss UDX6 RA JH MX MXJ, Golden Retriever, 199.0 
5 OTCH Hideaway's Heeere's Johnnie UDX4, Golden Retriever, 198.5 
6 CH Glenangus Dallas Tripper UD, Border Collie, 198.0 
7 Teal Oak Spins A Web UDX JH, Golden Retriever, 198.0 
8 MACH Rock 'N Annie UD, Doberman Pinscher, 197.5 
9 OTCH My-Key Sparks A Fly-N UDX2, Border Collie, 197.5 
10 MACH Sandyridge Eladsgar Tally Ho UDX2 RE, Labrador Retriever, 197.5 
11 OTCH Benden's Talk Of Texas UDX23 MH, Golden Retriever, 197.0 
12 Mud E Paws CDX RE, Golden Retriever, 197.0 
13 Mallard Brake Help Me Rhonda UD RN, Labrador Retriever, 197.0 
14 Tudorose Primo Bravissimo UDX2, Standard Poodle, 196.5 
15 OTCH Hideaway Riptide Rush UDX3 RE OA NAJ, Golden Retriever, 196.0


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## IndyBindy (Nov 4, 2011)

I've only been around dog sports for a little bit now, but have been admiring dog activities since I was very young. I think the problem with obedience is that it does not _seem_ newbie friendly, as it is all about precision, control, etc. I started with agility as I figured it would be much "easier" to train than obedience. That thinking is of course very wrong, but I just didn't know at the time!

I wanted to get into obedience over a year ago, but figured that my wacko rescue dog couldn't ever be as well trained as "those obedience dogs". I was completely wrong though, which I found out after doing a bit of research and seeing some more current trainers work thier dogs. Anyway, I think the best way to grow the sport is to encourage those that are new...they are the future. Take someone under your wing and reassure them that they CAN train their dog successfully. 

I've love reading about all of the training stories on this board, as it reminds me that no one's dog is perfect and that everyone has their training struggles!


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

It's funny, I am very intimidated by the thought of competitive obedience and not being able to talk my dog through an exercise. I plan to start with pre agility for Mack not because I think it will be any easier training-wise necessarily, but because I did find it much less initimidating.


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## Stretchdrive (Mar 12, 2011)

nolefan said:


> It's funny, I am very intimidated by the thought of competitive obedience and not being able to talk my dog through an exercise. I plan to start with pre agility for Mack not because I think it will be any easier training-wise necessarily, but because I did find it much less initimidating.


You can talk to your dog in Rally Obedience! After getting my CD with my Novice a dog, I did Rally for a year. I went from being shakey nervous in the ring, to completely comfortable. It can be a great confidence builder


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## IndyBindy (Nov 4, 2011)

Stretchdrive said:


> You can talk to your dog in Rally Obedience! After getting my CD with my Novice a dog, I did Rally for a year. I went from being shakey nervous in the ring, to completely comfortable. It can be a great confidence builder


 
YES! I am getting ready to do some rally advanced runs in about a month. I am TOO nervous do go for our CD, even though he could be ready very soon. I see rally as no big deal and am way more relaxed. I want my dogs (and my) first times in the ring to be just that, fun and relaxed!


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I just didn't know any better at the time - I had been doing Petsmart classes and really enjoyed training my dog, but there wasn't anything else in the area for me to do, no agility, obedience, or anything else here but conformation. Finally I found a few other people who were also getting started and had found a trainer two hours away who was willing to work with us occasionally. Rally wasn't a regular class then so I didn't know anything about that.

Actually what gave me the idea to do obedience trials was seeing my first trial that year when I went to see the goldens at our local kennel club's conformation trial. I ended up watching obedience instead, watched the Novice A dogs floundering around, and said, hey my dog can do that! LOL


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

IndyBindy said:


> YES! I am getting ready to do some rally advanced runs in about a month. I am TOO nervous do go for our CD, even though he could be ready very soon. I see rally as no big deal and am way more relaxed. I want my dogs (and my) first times in the ring to be just that, fun and relaxed!


I'm the opposite - rally makes me a nervous wreck, trying to follow a course!


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## Stretchdrive (Mar 12, 2011)

Loisiana said:


> I'm the opposite - rally makes me a nervous wreck, trying to follow a course!


That is when you are in the ring, and say in a happy voice "Well that was stupid, why did I do that!".


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Stretchdrive said:


> That is when you are in the ring, and say in a happy voice "Well that was stupid, why did I do that!".


no, that's when I get to the trial and say "this is stupid, why did I sign up for this?" LOL


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> I ended up watching obedience instead, watched the Novice A dogs floundering around, and said, hey my dog can do that! LOL


Heh... one of my instructors with Jacks, way back when we completed the first year and were going on winter break before classes started up again... she recommended that we try to get over to trials to watch. But she didn't want us watching novice A at all..... 

One thing I was going to say is that the reason why I really enjoyed training with big clubs this time around with Jacks (as opposed to the smaller training group we had with Danny), is that I really had a chance to watch a lot of the higher level obedience people training their green dogs. 

It helped to see what they were doing to teach very basic skills to their green dogs... and seeing that those trainers and their dogs (regardless of breed) were not just "born that way". There really is a lot of groundwork and training they do with their dogs long before they get to the ring.  

The problem I've always heard about obedience is it takes too long to prep an obedience trial dog. From what I've heard (maybe this isn't correct) about Agility is people expect to get into trials within a year. And the same thing was a selling point for Rally (before the AKC sent every stay at home trainer into a panic this fall). With obedience, it takes a long time. 

The funny thing is I told my mom that I was just going to do puppy classes with Jacks, but that we would prep for novice at home vs doing all the classes. Because I did spend a lot of money with my Danny just on classes and our mood-swinging instructor drove me nuts every time she shut down and left us stranded. <- So yep, I can somewhat see why people do not want to go through the expense of doing all the classes and dealing with flaky obedience people. 

Having a fun dog to train got me addicted to obedience training again, and likewise being around a lot of great trainers and their dogs. But if you don't have that advantage, or it's not as "fun"... it's probably why people are flocking to the agility and rally classes.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Obedience numbers in our area is really low and it's sad. Those that do participate, though are very gracious and willing to help newbies. I remember when I started with Brandy, I took her to the classes at the facility I train at now and they really made it a point to let me know "You can WIN with that dog". Well that was all it took they had me hooked. And I did win with her, not anything major, but we did very nicely. I think that is where we are missing the boat with newbies, as was said earlier, we need to take them under our wings and encourage them. I have heard horror stories of mean, cut throat competitors, and I am sure they are out there, and that is the LAST thing we need ring side for those not as confident. I'm rambling, and hope I made some sense.


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## sammydog (Aug 23, 2008)

DNL2448 said:


> I think that is where we are missing the boat with newbies, as was said earlier, we need to take them under our wings and encourage them. I have heard horror stories of mean, cut throat competitors, and I am sure they are out there, and that is the LAST thing we need ring side for those not as confident. I'm rambling, and hope I made some sense.


I could not agree with this part more! As someone who is a newbie my overall first impression of obedience was most people are not very nice. I am lucky enough to know people from agility so I had friends there, but I thought very few people from the table that had the catalogs to the people at the ring check in tables were friendly. I felt pretty stupid most of the time. I can easily see how someone who was entering their first trial would not want to come back.


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## Stretchdrive (Mar 12, 2011)

I think one thing that may help is if training centers and clubs, had mini seminars to help people understand what is going on, and the do's and don'ts of obedience shows. I have seen many new people doing things that are not always welcome at obedience shows, and I think if they knew NOT to do certain things, they wouldn't have people dislike them immediately. New competitors also need to be receptive of the help, and advice that the more seasoned people give them. They are not trying to be mean, they are trying to help them succeed. You know how many times I have wanted to tell people not to run like a fairy on the fast, or don't slow down, and turn and look at your dog on the figure 8?! People don't always help the newbies, because they can be pretty nasty when people do try to help. I know I for one am VERY selective of the people I try to help.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> You know how many times I have wanted to tell people not to run like a fairy on the fast,


Thanks for a much needed laugh this morning<:


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Obedience is not very beginner friendly and consists of an older crowd in general...at least this has been my experience.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Oddly, when I first started it was also primarily an older crowd too - now I am one of the older ones LOL

I think some of the unfriendliness is lessening, since the training ideas are more openly discussed and not held onto as some type of trade secrets. 

But part of what you are experiencing is also that younger folks are frequently raising families and starting careers. This does not always leave the time or money that excelling at obedience may require. Add in the expenses of doggy day care and dog walkers etc that are frequently employed today, the lengthening of our work days etc, and it does not truly surprise me that the sport is smaller than it was even 10-15 years ago.

And then there is agility - which is just plain fun. Win or lose, Q or not. I love obedience, don't get me wrong, but even some of my trainers now say that they would not work so tirelessly towards perfection when there are other sports they want to to participate in as well. And rally is really a dance of obedience with the added benefit of being able to talk with your dog 


It takes a lot of time and effort to play in these dog games, and the patience to plan things for years in advance, while allowing for flexibility and variation. This takes a special dedication when also raising children and taking care of a household. 



GoldenSail said:


> Obedience is not very beginner friendly and consists of an older crowd in general...at least this has been my experience.


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## Door (Apr 2, 2010)

I ejoyed obedience training right away. I got hooked at my first show. I just showed up and watched. It looked difficult, but with enough work, doable and within reach.

I wish I started earlier, when I had better health. I am limited and probably will never reach upper levels. But I always look forward to training and events. Its often aggrevating and disappointing, but so are all sports.

Its seems to me like healthy competition in my geographical area. I have not been involved long enough to observe ups and downs in the level of competition.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

One question I have for this thread... and this is based on a lot of the "what's wrong with obedience" threads that keeping popping up in my email....

How could obedience change to make it better for you? 

I do not want the sport itself to be dumbed down. Within reason. 

We were practicing stands at class recently and my instructor mentioned that they actually once did a timed stand stay. I mean REALLY?! Where was I when they were still doing that?! <- I think my dog could probably handle a timed stand stay, but I can't say I wanted to experience anything like that. 

Talking to your dogs - I think the downside of that is what we already see in rally. People go out there and are babbling away at their dogs and luring left and right.

I saw a discussion loading up my email about the role or need of spectators at obedience trials to help draw attention to our sport. 

I have no idea how that would work...  I mean I'm going to a trial in a couple weeks where I'm sure the noise level is going to keep us out of the ring, unless I get there early enough for my guy to become completely acclimated and zoned out. <- Last year I went to this same trial and it took 2 hours before Jacks suddenly relaxed enough for me to practice heeling with him. 

Maybe the bonus or what would be fairer would be for a Best in Show or something like that - basically create a class for rapid run offs at the end of the trial for the top 10 scorers. 

Or maybe something that confident trainers and confident dogs could sign up for that would put them in a big ring where they will have everything thrown at them + directly compete with each other for a title. 

Even throwing in multiple jumps and multiple go outs or more difficult (and showy) exercises to show spectators what the moon looks like if they shoot for it. 

^^^ And the problem I see as far as this is I know obedience people who steer clear of some shows because of the noise or spectator traffic level. And that's mainly because while the trainers are confident about being in that situation, they aren't willing to put their dogs through that.

*** I should probably add that I was a teenager when I started training Danny.  I'm still younger than a lot of people I train with, but that doesn't really bother me too much. This is probably bad, but coming from the horse world where there is a lot of backbiting competition from the younger people there, I really LIKE the maturity level of people I'm training with. The only downside is that sometimes those fun matches and Friday rally trials don't really make sense if you have a day job.


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

Well I guess I am one of those older people in obedience and try to very helpful to new people. My dog is trained with distractions and has not problem being around noises. He was raised in a house with children coming and going.. so he is used to it all.
The only time I might or may have been short is when I am walking into the ring and even in those cases I try to explain if they will give me a few minutes until I am done I would be happy to talk.. Anyway.. I think so??...LOL!
At the NOI it was a good thing I practice that because I could have made a total fool of myself ..thank goodness I was good!


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## sammydog (Aug 23, 2008)

Michelle, I think you are an exceptionally nice! I bet you are wonderful to new people!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Titan1 said:


> My dog is trained with distractions and has not problem being around noises. He was raised in a house with children coming and going.. so he is used to it all.


^^^ My guy was too. I just didn't raise him around enough thunderstorms early enough. Darn mother nature holding out that first important year! 

I've always talked with people who come up as well + they are welcome to pet my guy and fuss over him. 

And when it comes to new people stressing out outside the ring, if they ask questions I do make myself available to answer. Like with the rally ring there were a lot of people who either did not know the rally signs or forgot them when they got out there for the walkthrough. Other times, I just talk to them about their dogs and get them to stop worrying. 

I'd love to offer other advice - especially when I see people nagging at their dogs who've they've been warming up for the past 20 minutes or those other people who are physically shaking. But I think offering advice might make matters worse for some of these people... who really should have training buddies and instructors coming to those first trial and helping make things easier for them.


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## MarieP (Aug 21, 2011)

Titan1 said:


> Well I guess I am one of those older people in obedience and try to very helpful to new people.
> The only time I might or may have been short is when I am walking into the ring and even in those cases I try to explain if they will give me a few minutes until I am done I would be happy to talk...


I think this is part of the issue. New people may not know the "etiquette" of obedience shows. If I have a dog with me, I may not want to chat. And I really wouldn't want someone coming up and making a fuss over him right as I am getting him and me into the zone and ready to go into the ring. New people may think that we are over protective of our dogs, not allowing them to play around with them. But I don't think they realize the work, money, time, energy, blood, sweat, and tears we put into getting ready for a show.


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

mlopez said:


> I think this is part of the issue. New people may not know the "etiquette" of obedience shows. If I have a dog with me, I may not want to chat. And I really wouldn't want someone coming up and making a fuss over him right as I am getting him and me into the zone and ready to go into the ring. New people may think that we are over protective of our dogs, not allowing them to play around with them. But I don't think they realize the work, money, time, energy, blood, sweat, and tears we put into getting ready for a show.


I usually find if I say ... Can you give me a minute until I finish my run here and I would be happy to have him visit and answer questions...Most understand and will usually then watch..LOL! I really don't think I have had anyone walk away mad...


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## JDandBigAm (Aug 25, 2008)

Stretchdrive said:


> You can talk to your dog in Rally Obedience! After getting my CD with my Novice a dog, I did Rally for a year. I went from being shakey nervous in the ring, to completely comfortable. It can be a great confidence builder


After Jonah gets his 3rd leg in BN we are starting Rally for more ring experience. I have found that the blood is pounding hard in my ears and I have a hard time hearing the judge calling out each exercise in the Novice matches we have been in.....
In the PacNW it seems that there may be a surge of newcomers in the obedience ring. Jan 14 show has over 33 in Beg Nov. and over 50 in Nov.
Oh, and for those competitive Goldens in conformation there is 98 entered on Sat and 100 for Sunday!


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## Stretchdrive (Mar 12, 2011)

Happy said:


> After Jonah gets his 3rd leg in BN we are starting Rally for more ring experience. I have found that the blood is pounding hard in my ears and I have a hard time hearing the judge calling out each exercise in the Novice matches we have been in.....
> In the PacNW it seems that there may be a surge of newcomers in the obedience ring. Jan 14 show has over 33 in Beg Nov. and over 50 in Nov.
> Oh, and for those competitive Goldens in conformation there is 98 entered on Sat and 100 for Sunday!


 
Those are really nice class sizes!! I love large classes, but man it makes for a long day!

I have had it where I couldn't hear the judge before, but knew the pattern, so I stopped when I thought the judge said halt, but he hadn't said it yet...OOPS Luckily it was a judge that picks on ya, so it was a nice little laugh.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

My pipe dream for obedience which I think would really rock the boat and bring some new blood into the sport is to put a subjective element of STYLE into judging. 
Yes, the rules are for exercises to be done "briskly" but there is no accounting for the dog's attitude, showiness, enjoyment, basically, it's STYLE. Style is not speed. Style also is not accounted for in obedience at all and never has been. What turns people off from obedience is the drill-team precision required and let's face it, MOST teams in the B classes have sacrificed attitude for precision, and that's sad for everyone involved. The challenge is obviously to get both. If style were judged then I think we would see training change for the better, better dogs, and more people.
When you watch an obedience class you don't remember the dogs who did it perfect you remember the dogs who did it happily. We need more of that in obedience.


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## sammydog (Aug 23, 2008)

OOOooooo I love that idea! I really enjoyed watching those happy dogs when I was at a trial.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

I was just going to say, I would love to watch a dog like Mira vs one that plods along with no wagging tail and droopy expression!


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Honestly I think the saddest thing is a B class dog who trots slowly back from everything -- gloves, articles, moving stand -- lines itself up for a perfect front, just going through the motions. You know they've been TAUGHT to trot back (lest they get pts off for walking), hammered on that front, ugggggg------kill me now. Even if they had essentially identical performances the dog who sparkles in the ring (like Titan  ) should be rewarded. Don't know how they could do it but it would be awesome


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Or Flip....We have so many talented beautiful, stylish dogs in our group. The problem is that some breeds just don't have a lot of sparkle in their breed character. Maybe we should give perserverance points to owners who keep trying! There is one lady that shows Dals. They are so painful to watch, but she keeps trying and she really tries, so do her dogs. But dang, when it takes 30 seconds to sit, makes for a long run.

Note: I would love to see Titan heel, I can just imagine how cute he is!


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## sammydog (Aug 23, 2008)

I actually remember when I was first learning about obedience I asked a friend if the dogs got points for style. She said no and mentioned how unfair it would be since not all breeds are animated and bouncy by nature.

Titan is really fun to watch heel! Pretty cute go-outs too!!! I think he should get extra style points for those go-outs!!


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

DNL2448 said:


> Or Flip....We have so many talented beautiful, stylish dogs in our group. The problem is that some breeds just don't have a lot of sparkle in their breed character. Maybe we should give perserverance points to owners who keep trying! There is one lady that shows Dals. They are so painful to watch, but she keeps trying and she really tries, so do her dogs. But dang, when it takes 30 seconds to sit, makes for a long run.
> 
> Note: I would love to see Titan heel, I can just imagine how cute he is!


Sorry, I have seen a "sparkly" Basset hound who obviously loved what he was doing in the ring and was having a good time. And dalmatians? They are an active, athletic, endearing breed, if there is a slow one out there in obedience I don't think it's breed has anything to do with it. Much like in hunt tests dogs are judged on an element of style (OMG -- just had a flash of brilliance ... name a dog "Kennel's Element Of Style" call name "Strunk" -- haha, does anyone else get that? LOL) anyways you can have a big, heavy, slower moving dog like Fisher run a master test and get high scores for style because he shows in his work that he likes what he's doing, is enthusiastic, is a team player, enjoys his work. You can have a 50 pound lean machine FT bred lab score low on style because it slinks to the line, runs tentative blinds, etc. Style is not body type/breed and it isn't speed.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

sammydog said:


> Titan is really fun to watch heel! Pretty cute go-outs too!!! I think he should get extra style points for those go-outs!!


I just found a couple videos on Michelle's Facebook page. He is AWESOME! Love his tail doesn't stop.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

The problem I see with style... is it might push more "non obedience" breeds out of obedience. 

I mean I have never seen a happy mastiff in the obedience ring. 

And you take other breeds like newfs, and it's the same thing. <- though I did see one this past fall who was AWESOME. My sister kept repeating she'd never seen a newf move that fast. 

I think we all know what we like to see with goldens - whether that's people who like to see natural movement or people who want to see racking. I know I'm not exactly happy when I see a golden go out in the ring with the tail down and with the dog looking everywhere else except the owner. Even my Danny with his two bad elbows went out there and moved out as best as he could, even if he was physically incapable of prancing.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Oh, I agree you can have sparkle in any breed. I have seen a sparkly Bulldog, but then again, the majority I've seen in obedience have not been, shall we say, balls of fire. (Maybe that would have helped :curtain.

I don't disagree with you, Anney, but I'm just saying, while it is an excellent idea, I think that those who don't have stylish dogs might frown upon the idea. I had a dog that was too stylish. She had her own interpretation of each Utility Exercise. She put a different spin on one exercise each time we entered the ring. :doh: And that is why we ALWAYS drew a crowd when Brandy entered the ring. (To this day, people talk about her, not something I relish).


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## sammydog (Aug 23, 2008)

Maybe they can reserve 5 points for style... Something small, but you could not earn a 200 without them... Or something like that...


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

We could have style points come into play in run-offs! Dog with most style points wins run offs, no heeling patterns!


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## sammydog (Aug 23, 2008)

DNL2448 said:


> We could have style points come into play in run-offs! Dog with most style points wins run offs, no heeling patterns!


That sounds like a great idea!


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Isn't the phrase "... utmost willingness and enjoyment" in the description of obedience somewhere? (That's a legit question, btw ... I seem to think it is, but I'm too lazy to go look! Hey, at least I'm honest!)

The slow trotting, but super accurate dog is not, IMO, displaying the "utmost of willingness and enjoyment."


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## sammydog (Aug 23, 2008)

That was not hard! It is on the first page under Purpose: "The performance of dog and handler in the ring must be accurate and correct according to these regulations. It is also *essential that the dog demonstrate willingness and enjoyment* while it is working and that a smooth and natural handler be given precedence over a handler moving with military precision and using harsh commands."

http://www.akc.org/pdfs/rulebooks/RO2999.pdf

I think that opens it up for some style points!!! 

Also

"Lack of willingness and enjoyment on the part of the dog must be penalized, as must lack of precision in the dog’s performance" - Section 2. Standard of Perfection


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## MarieP (Aug 21, 2011)

Megora said:


> The problem I see with style... is it might push more "non obedience" breeds out of obedience.
> 
> I mean I have never seen a happy mastiff in the obedience ring.


Believe it or not, I HAVE seen a happy mastiff in the ring. He was actually "bouncy." 

I think an issue would be with dogs who may get ring stress. My old girl was wonderfully happy, usually too much so, when we were training. She had great style. However, she was (and still is) a ball of stress. Everything out of her normal routine makes her anxious. I cheerleaded her as much as I could in the ring, but some days it just was too much for her. But one of those "non-style" days, she won her one and only HIT because she was still that good. 

I like the idea of including style, but there are problems with that. I think you could maybe do that if you allow more talking to the dog during the exercises.

You know what would really make people want to do Novice more? More "fun" exercises and less heeling! Heeling is hard, and it takes a long time to teach. Especially off-leash. Just a thought...


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

I saw TWO darling mastiffs at the NOI. And you know what, they walked back from articles. But they looked happy to be there, enthusiastic, and happy to work with their owners. 
The newf you saw was probably the one that trains with Bridget. 
Yes there are dogs just not cut out for obedience. But dogs who look cruddy or bored with precision are made that way by their owners. If the dog gets down during heeling b/c the owner isn't chattering to him the whole time, that's the owner's fault for training him that silence means bad things. It's training, all of it. If you start to quantify and reward style (remember -- style is NOT speed) you reward the trainers who work hard to keep their dogs motivated and happy. Now isn't that what obedience should be about? I also like the style points be the determining factor in a run off 
I know this will never happen but, you know, a girl can dream.....


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

While I like to watch a happy dog in the ring, I don't know how crazy I am about "style points" (for those of you not on it, this same discussion has been on the ring tested list since NOI). I think it would make a slippery slope of judges putting up dogs whose personal "style" they like better than another when you have something so subjective. One judge may decide he likes the style of performance where a dog leaps into his finishes, even though this isn't required by the regs and you can have plenty of style without it. This isn't conformation, people shouldn't have to shop around for judges who prefer their particular dog's style over another. (and even though that wouldn't be the intent I know that is what would start to happen).

Judges need to just judge by the rules. The rules call for "brisk" work. A slow trot is not brisk. A slow finish is not brisk. I have been hit before for Conner doing a slow trot out of the article pile. As it should be. Judges who do not score by the rules are doing the sport a disservice.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Loisiana said:


> While I like to watch a happy dog in the ring, I don't know how crazy I am about "style points" (for those of you not on it, this same discussion has been on the ring tested list since NOI). I think it would make a slippery slope of judges putting up dogs whose personal "style" they like better than another when you have something so subjective. One judge may decide he likes the style of performance where a dog leaps into his finishes, even though this isn't required by the regs and you can have plenty of style without it. This isn't conformation, people shouldn't have to shop around for judges who prefer their particular dog's style over another. (and even though that wouldn't be the intent I know that is what would start to happen).
> 
> Judges need to just judge by the rules. The rules call for "brisk" work. A slow trot is not brisk. A slow finish is not brisk. I have been hit before for Conner doing a slow trot out of the article pile. As it should be. Judges who do not score by the rules are doing the sport a disservice.


Completely agree with all of it! It would be fraught with problems. I guess the flip side is, as it is now we are all at liberty to train for the personal style we like.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I will say though, if there was one dog that would have RACKED UP on style points, it would have been Colby! That dog was a pain in the butt because he didn't care if he did what he was supposed to or not, but he packed some major attitude, enthusiasm, speed, and cuteness into those 12 pounds! Too bad it was rarely qualifying LOL. Now that I don't have him I'm starting to miss the little critter.


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## MarieP (Aug 21, 2011)

Loisiana said:


> While I like to watch a happy dog in the ring, I don't know how crazy I am about "style points" (for those of you not on it, this same discussion has been on the ring tested list since NOI). I think it would make a slippery slope of judges putting up dogs whose personal "style" they like better than another when you have something so subjective. One judge may decide he likes the style of performance where a dog leaps into his finishes, even though this isn't required by the regs and you can have plenty of style without it. This isn't conformation, people shouldn't have to shop around for judges who prefer their particular dog's style over another. (and even though that wouldn't be the intent I know that is what would start to happen).
> 
> Judges need to just judge by the rules. The rules call for "brisk" work. A slow trot is not brisk. A slow finish is not brisk. I have been hit before for Conner doing a slow trot out of the article pile. As it should be. Judges who do not score by the rules are doing the sport a disservice.


Yes, yes yes! Completely agree. Please don't make me start having to get my dog to have "Tennessee Walking Horse (Dog)" heeling like B. Carlson's dogs. I mean, if that's what she wants, that's great, and the dogs are certainly stylish. But that's not MY style.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> More "fun" exercises and less heeling! Heeling is hard, and it takes a long time to teach. Especially off-leash. Just a thought...


No - get rid of the stays!!!!! They are HARD.  

I love heeling. On leash or off leash. Actually, if they made it all off leash I would absolutely love it.


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## sammydog (Aug 23, 2008)

Megora said:


> I love heeling. On leash or off leash. Actually, if they made it all off leash I would absolutely love it.


I am with you!!! Jodie reminded me I need to really work on my ON-LEASH heeling!!!


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Yes, we have to look at what happened to the Quarter Horses (for those who know horses). One horse gets put up constantly when it moves with its nose basically on the ground (for those who don't know, it looked STUPID) then all of a sudden, all the horses were moving around with their nose on the ground. I'm glad to see they are coming up a bit. But if one style of work is winning, then it seems that is the fad. Just stick with what you like. As long as it is within the rules and it works for you, do it! I'll never have the prancing dog, they aren't built that way, but they will ALWAYS be happy, or I/we won't do it.


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## sammydog (Aug 23, 2008)

Can I earn style points!?! hehehe!

Or would those be marked down for looking like a dork :curtain:


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## MarieP (Aug 21, 2011)

sammydog said:


> Can I earn style points!?! hehehe!
> 
> Or would those be marked down for looking like a dork :curtain:


It is definitely a fine line between dork and stylish 

I would pay money to see you walk that way all through the heeling patterns.


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## sammydog (Aug 23, 2008)

How much!?  I can always use more money to spend on my agility addiction! :bowl:


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

I LOVE heeling with my dog...and would not trade him for any stylish dog out there. I worked hard to get my dog enthusiastic about showing and in my world he heels great.. Not flashy like some but he has a good time!:wave:


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## sammydog (Aug 23, 2008)

I think Titan is pretty stylish!


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Too funny  Michelle - I posted just this morning (in Training plans) that after spending last night watching videos, I have reconfirmed that it is you & Titan who are my role models :wavey::wavey: Titan is great no matter whose world I think!



Titan1 said:


> I LOVE heeling with my dog...and would not trade him for any stylish dog out there. I worked hard to get my dog enthusiastic about showing and in my world he heels great.. Not flashy like some but he has a good time!:wave:


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

Titan1 said:


> I LOVE heeling with my dog...and would not trade him for any stylish dog out there. I worked hard to get my dog enthusiastic about showing and in my world he heels great.. Not flashy like some but he has a good time!:wave:


What makes you think Titan is not stylish??? I watched his videos and he is AWESOME! What I like most is that he is not all contorted and looks fluid and natural and *HAPPY*! To me that is the most important in any sport we do with our dogs.


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## boomers_dawn (Sep 20, 2009)

Sunrise said:


> Oddly, when I first started it was also primarily an older crowd too - now I am one of the older ones LOL


YOU ARE NOT!! LOL
But I agree with everything else you said. :


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

I watch some handlers that people outside would consider flashy and stylish and do not put myself in that category. Titan is a hard worker and is consitant..not bouncy.. I worked hard to get rid of that fast time bounce.. got scored more often than not.. 
Titan is a smooth heeler and I can see him out of the corner of my eye and I know he is there but I never "feel" him other than sensing he is there..make any sense?? The last time I felt him... Was a rotten about turn at the NOI..My fault completly..LOL!


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

I know exactly what you mean  With Towhee & Casey, their tendency is to be bouncy so I try to balance it out to a smoother style; Faelan, King & Rowdy all have/had smooth styles  

Smooth is good in my opinion & just to clarify; Titan = style  Flashy, perhaps not but stylish - for sure! 



Titan1 said:


> I watch some handlers that people outside would consider flashy and stylish and do not put myself in that category. Titan is a hard worker and is consitant..not bouncy.. I worked hard to get rid of that fast time bounce.. got scored more often than not..
> Titan is a smooth heeler and I can see him out of the corner of my eye and I know he is there but I never "feel" him other than sensing he is there..make any sense?? The last time I felt him... Was a rotten about turn at the NOI..My fault completly..LOL!


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## sammydog (Aug 23, 2008)

Hmmm... Maybe we need a better definition for stylish! Titan is certainly what I consider stylish!

I liked what Anney said earlier about Fisher at hunt tests "high scores for style because he shows in his work that he likes what he's doing, is enthusiastic, is a team player, enjoys his work"

I think that is a great way of putting it. So I thought I would go check out the hunt test manual, since they judge style there. Of course the hunting elements would not apply.

_Style is apparent in every movement of a dog by the
gaiety of its manner, by its alertness, by its eagerness
and speed on retrieves, by its water-entry, by its pick-up
of birds, and by its return with them. Style makes for a
pleasing performance._

I really like that last line! *Style makes for a pleasing performance.*


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## Stretchdrive (Mar 12, 2011)

So am I the only person that thinks the cost of competitive obedience could also be a factor in the entries going down?


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

The cost of everything is a definite factor (gas, food, lodging, etc.). I won't be doing a lot this year as we really want to pay off some stuff, so the only events I go to will be fairly local.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Stretchdrive said:


> So am I the only person that thinks the cost of competitive obedience could also be a factor in the entries going down?



Anyone who uses that for an excuse to not do obedience -- clearly does not do field or conformation!!!! LOL


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## Stretchdrive (Mar 12, 2011)

K9-Design said:


> Anyone who uses that for an excuse to not do obedience -- clearly does not do field or conformation!!!! LOL


Oh no doubt, those are very expensive compared to obedience.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

I gotta say if you want to pinch pennies, do tracking. All you need is some $3 gloves and $1 construction flags from Home Depot, and $2 hotdogs. Wa-laa!


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

I would agree - the cost of entries is rising but still not that bad, but when the cost of gas is added, I need to think about all my entries. I am also starting to look for clubs which have double shows in 1 day to help defray that expense. 

I would bring food rather than pay $5 - $7 for a poorly cooked and slapped together cheeseburger (served with attitude) at one of the largest venues in my area except then you get to eat in your truck - that is on top of the entry fees plus the parking fees. 

So for this venue, then entry would be $30, parking $5, gas $40, lunch + coffees $10 for a total around $85; or close to 3x the entry cost.

At most agility shows though, the food is worth the money  Wonder why the obedience shows can't have the same vendors? Well when allowed to by contract anyway.


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## Stretchdrive (Mar 12, 2011)

I guess if I were brand new to the sport, and looking at $25 on up for an entry fee, I would be thinking twice about ever starting in AKC obedience.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Stretchdrive said:


> I guess if I were brand new to the sport, and looking at $25 on up for an entry fee, I would be thinking twice about ever starting in AKC obedience.


Especially when entry fees for agility are almost half that...


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## Stretchdrive (Mar 12, 2011)

It would be nice if AKC could atleast drop the price of second entries a few dollars. I know it will never happen, but a few dollars a day adds up when you are showing a few weekends a month.


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

Try spending for double entries all the time..lol! I still would train it even if I never show again! I also think around our area Susan there are enough local shows that could keep you pretty busy!


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

You know entry fees are up to the club holding the event INCLUDING the cost for an additional class. Most additional class entries are less.
I really doubt entry fees are what holds people back.
Look at hunt test fees, it's now $70 per day for Senior and $75 for Master. Plus $4.50 per entry on Entry Express! My HT weekends are getting more expensive!!!


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## sammydog (Aug 23, 2008)

Megora said:


> Especially when entry fees for agility are almost half that...


Not around here!! :bawling: We pay $22/$15!!


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Around here the agility entries are edging up 27/17, 25/20 etc





sammydog said:


> Not around here!! :bawling: We pay $22/$15!!


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## Stretchdrive (Mar 12, 2011)

Being a former VP of a club, I know there are many costs associated with putting on shows, and I know how hard it is for clubs when they have to raise fees, ecspecially when it is a small club and it ends up affecting their entries. The club I used to belong to even had considered dropping obedience from it's yearly show, because it was actually a financial loss for the club.

I am financially ok with showing, but I know many people who do show, that are not. Entry fees are affecting the numbers of entries for these people, and I know some may not consider it a big deal since they are only entering one class, and will probably not continue past a CDX, but these entries do count.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Entry fees are the least of my concern when figuring in costs. I don't even look at what the fee is until I go to write the check. Honestly five dollar a class one way or the other isn't going to affect my decision if I enter or not...I'm figuring in if I'll be able to afford the gas, hotel, food, etc that also has to go into the weekend. I have one show that is under an hour from me, one show that is a little over an hour, and one that is at about two hours. Everything else is over two hours, most in the 3-5 hour range.

There have been several times that I have entered the show and then decided not to go because I couldn't afford it at the time. Throwing a few entry fees away was nothing compared to the rest of the money I would still have to put in to make the weekend happen.

I don't know about other parts of the country, but I know high entries for hunt tests don't seem to be keeping anyone away. Those entries are huge!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> I have one show that is under an hour from me, one show that is a little over an hour, and one that is at about two hours. Everything else is over two hours, most in the 3-5 hour range


Reading this makes me feel bad for quibbling about having to drive a smidgen over an hour to some trials....  

@fees - I mentioned the agility trials because I was astounded that they are so cheap. Just $16?! 

As far as obedience fees - I don't think they are keeping people out of trials. There are some people who make it a day at trials, multiple entries, multiple dogs, and they do every single one of the popular obedience club trials in my area. <- I don't want to think about how much they spend all in all. 

Speaking for myself, I'm aiming for one trial a month, whether we show or just go to train... that's about $50-60 if I do a couple entries. The trial I'm doing this month was only $29.

I DO think numbers are down... but I think it's possibly related to people waiting longer to get their dogs into the ring. Or being pickier about which trials they enter?


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Loisiana said:


> I don't know about other parts of the country, but I know high entries for hunt tests don't seem to be keeping anyone away. Those entries are huge!


Agree with you about the entry fees vs. the rest of the weekend costs! YIKES!

Master entries are staying strong but Junior & Senior have dropped for the most part. When I did Fisher's JH 7 or 8 yrs ago we had 40-50 dogs running. Now you see some junior entries in the teens in those same clubs. 
I think you also see more prepared dogs, though!!!


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

We have one four day show all year in our town. The rest are at least three hours away. Not a big deal, but too much for a up and back trip but if you plan to stay overnight, then the costs skyrocket. Hopefully, this year I will have a friend showing as well and we can carpool. Still it won't be as much as I used to.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

DNL2448 said:


> We have one four day show all year in our town. The rest are at least three hours away. Not a big deal, but too much for a up and back trip but if you plan to stay overnight, then the costs skyrocket. Hopefully, this year I will have a friend showing as well and we can carpool. Still it won't be as much as I used to.


Same problem here and it sucks. A 'close' home show is five hours away. There are only four big shows (breed, agility, obedience) in the whole state and they are scattered. And here even going to one of the in-state shows is often a 3-5 hour drive. Part of why I am considering a move in a few years...


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

K9-Design said:


> Master entries are staying strong but Junior & Senior have dropped for the most part.


Are they losing numbers or are people just holding out after their first dog for Master? My friend has told me she doesn't personally feel a great desire to go out of her way to show her nice show lab puppy in Junior because she's done it before and has higher goals anyway. Now if she's ready (largely obedience and line manners, the dog is a retrieving machine) and there is a close show that is a different matter.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Loisiana said:


> Entry fees are the least of my concern when figuring in costs.


I have to agree with that! If you have to travel therein lies a huge cost. Also considering how much money you spent taking lessons, buying training equipment, etc just to get to that point. In retrospect the entry fees seem minimal...at least to me.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

GoldenSail said:


> Same problem here and it sucks. A 'close' home show is five hours away. There are only four big shows (breed, agility, obedience) in the whole state and they are scattered. And here even going to one of the in-state shows is often a 3-5 hour drive. Part of why I am considering a move in a few years...


Hey, you can move here and we can start our own Golden club!!! At least we have a great training facility in our area.


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