# Extra charges above purchase price normal?



## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

It seems rather ballsy and a bit tacky to nickle and dime you to death after youve spent 2K on a puppy.
Maybe it is just me??


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## Sterling Archer (Feb 8, 2011)

LibertyME said:


> It seems rather ballsy and a bit tacky to nickle and dime you to death after youve spent 2K on a puppy.
> Maybe it is just me??


x2. I think that's pretty nervy. If the dog isn't ready or she has to change dates with you...do you get a refund? I know the deposit is supposedly non-refundable...but I'd ask for it back. tell her that if she doesn't, you'll consult your lawyer (fib) about the fees that she failed to disclose prior to taking your deposit (which you made in good faith...assuming a final purchase price of $2,000).


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

any chance this breeder is from Maine?


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## GoldenCamper (Dec 21, 2009)

LibertyME said:


> It seems rather ballsy and a bit tacky to nickle and dime you to death after youve spent 2K on a puppy.
> Maybe it is just me??


I find that awfully tacky too. I know I would be put off with a "oh by the way I want another 45 bucks on top of your 2 grand":no:


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I guess it depends... 

*1. The information now says that I have to pay $20 to register the puppy with AKC*

- This is not an issue. Everyone who buys a puppy from a breeder is required to pay to register their puppy. Most breeders don't really pressure new owners to fill out the registration papers, which is a pity. Because then the dogs don't ever get registered.

*2. I also have to pay for the required microchipping at $25.50*

- I can bet this is just to register the microchip in your name/address. If it's not and you still have to pay $20 to register the chip, then yeah that'd bother me.

*3. I have to pay $15/day if I don't pick up the puppy on the day she specifies and pay $20 vaccination fee & vet bill if not picked up by 9 weeks*

- This seems a bit different and does bother me a little bit. Not so much the vaccination, because I think you will be paying more than that at the vet while following the vaccination schedule. But I've never had a breeder talk about charging me for things like having to leave the puppy with them a little bit longer.



> Purchase Price was $2000. They complete the microchipping and AKC registration themselves. And the puppy normally comes home between 8-10 weeks. There were no disclaimers or statements that additional charges apply.


What I'm asking you is if the breeder is going to be filling out the registration form for you and mailing it in to the AKC + filling out the microchip form for your and mailing or faxing it in to the chip company for you. 

Something I'm thinking is that probably they should have spelled it out that those services were not included in the purchase price for the puppy, and they weren't taking money out of their own pocket to take care of it for you. 

Now if you are quibbling about spending $2000 on a puppy, then depending on who the breeder is, you can probably quibble about spending THAT MUCH when you might have purchased a puppy for a lot less.  

4 years ago I spent $900 for my guy. Decent enough breeder. I mailed in my own registration paper with the required $20. Microchip was $18 and I faxed that in.


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## golden_eclipse (Apr 1, 2011)

Is this a show puppy? (2k seems like a lot for a pet puppy). I guess it happens, but that price is almost a red flag, plus all the nickel and dime-ing, seems sketchy.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I honestly don’t see a problem with a boarding fee if the puppy isn’t picked up by a certain date. That seems reasonable to me. With the other stuff though, if it were me and it were my litter (I am not a breeder though) I would just include the AKC registration and microchip costs in the price of the puppy (i.e. the $2000 includes the registration and microchipping). It just seems much easier than ticking off your puppy buyers. 

I understand the desire to want all puppies chipped and registered, it probably just should have been disclosed up front that there was an additional cost involved with those items.

$2000 is on the high end in some parts of the country but normal in others (like California where I live) if the puppy is out of finished parents with all health clearances. That in and of itself is not a red flag at all to me. I don't think this breeder seems sketchy or not sketchy based on the information provided (which is minimal)... perhaps they just didn't realize the additional costs would leave a bad taste in people's mouths.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> With the other stuff though, if it were me and it were my litter (I am not a breeder though) I would just include the AKC registration and microchip costs in the price of the puppy (i.e. the $2000 includes the registration and microchipping). It just seems much easier than ticking off your puppy buyers.


But do breeders normally do that? 

I always thought you get a packet when you pick up your puppy and it contains all the paperwork you have to fill out and send in?


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I agree that if they want the owner to pay them for those things, just include it in your original asking price. And personally I'd be put off by someone charging me extra to pick up my puppy a few days later. It's like saying you can't wait to get these critters out of your hair and out of your life. But that's just me. Many of the breeders I know will board the dogs they have bred free of charge for life.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Megora said:


> But do breeders normally do that?
> 
> I always thought you get a packet when you pick up your puppy and it contains all the paperwork you have to fill out and send in?


I've heard of breeders doing it that way. When you pick up the puppy you fill out the paperwork and then the breeder sends it in to make sure that the litter is registered.


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

If it is important to the breeder...Wouldnt it be nice if, at the kitchen table during pickup, the breeder helped the puppy buyers fill out the AKC & chip paperwork? Then the breeder could write the checks for each, put the stamp on the envelope and mailed it in.
Breeder gets what they want...puppy people get the help and encouragement they often need without being told "oh by the way...surprise! You need to pay for this too!" ?


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Loisiana said:


> And personally I'd be put off by someone charging me extra to pick up my puppy a few days later. It's like saying you can't wait to get these critters out of your hair and out of your life. But that's just me. Many of the breeders I know will board the dogs they have bred free of charge for life.


 A few days, sure. Usually weird things are there for a reason. Like (as an example) there was a warning on a superman costume I saw that the costume wouldn’t make you fly. Obviously it was there because some idiot thought the cape would make him fly. Maybe this breeder had people who wanted to pick the puppy up at 12 weeks because it was more convenient timing for them and they ended up boarding and training the puppy for much longer than they anticipated...there's probably a reason it's there. I also understand the charge for the vaccination and vet visit if the puppy buyer elects to pick up the puppy later as well. 

I wouldn’t expect any breeder to board a dog for free ever. In an emergency situation, ok. But any of my friends would do that for us, not just our dogs’ breeders. If we were just going on vacation or something I would always pay someone, no matter who it was.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

LibertyME said:


> If it is important to the breeder...Wouldnt it be nice if, at the kitchen table during pickup, the breeder helped the puppy buyers fill out the AKC & chip paperwork? Then the breeder could write the checks for each, put the stamp on the envelope and mailed it in.
> Breeder gets what they want...puppy people get the help and encouragement they often need without being told "oh by the way...surprise! You need to pay for this too!" ?


I completely agree. I think the problem in this situation is the appearance of nickle and diming and the lack of communication with the puppy buyer.


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## goldenlover17 (Jan 25, 2012)

Thanks for all the replies. The breeder is Windy Ridges out of Flemington, NJ. The price is comparable to breeders in the area. I think overall, I'm just shocked that the additional charges aren't included in the purchase price of the dog and it leaves me feeling conned, like now they're adding on more money, trying to nickle & dime me to death. The fact that they didn't disclose any of this before I put my deposit down is what I'm upset about. I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks this is wrong of them to do. Now I have to decide my next steps. I think the biggest issue for me is the AKC registration, I don't care if my puppy is registered, but I believe she is required to be. So if it's a requirement for them to do it, they should be paying for it.

The last golden I got was 10 years ago, but all of this was included in the purchase price.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I don’t think it’s fraud. Not at all. That’s getting a little dramatic, IMO. I would be very careful about accusing a breeder of fraud on the internet...especially when you just named them. It just could have been communicated better, THAT is the issue. Breeders aren't perfect and they're still human, they don't do everything exactly right all the time. These are things you were going to pay for anyway so maybe just nicely communicate to the breeder that in the future they should consider notifying the puppy buyers up front so they aren’t surprised like you were.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

goldenlover17 said:


> The fact that they didn't disclose any of this before I put my deposit down is close to fraud. I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks this is wrong of them to do. Now I have to decide my next steps. I think the biggest issue for me is the AKC registration, I don't care if my puppy is registered, but I believe she is required to be. So if it's a requirement for them to do it, they should be paying for it.


I mean no offense here, but a lot of us on GRF have other issues with breeders cutting corners or schlepping when it comes to how they breed, why they breed, how responsible they are as far as clearances and care for their dogs, etc.

The fault here is a failure to communicate or spell out exactly what is included in the price and what isn't.

There is another thread on GRF where a member was upset because a breeder was pressuring her to send in the registration forms to the AKC. She was upset about spending $20 on something she didn't even care about. My reaction at the time is the same one I have now. 

Each one of our dogs came from different breeders. Each breeder handed us a packet or folder full of paperwork that needed filling out, sending in, and paying for. This included AKC registration - which costs $20. The longer you wait, the more expensive it gets to register your dog. So $20 is cheap. 

That $2000 is the price for the puppy. I'm going to give your breeder the benefit of the doubt and assume that is a small fraction of what it cost her to produce your puppy and care for it for the first 8 weeks of its life. And it's a small fraction of what went into the breeding itself.


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

I think your first warning flag was the $2,000 purchase price. That tells me this is someone doing it as a business taking a nice big profit margin on each puppy. No one can tell me that feeding a puppy for the first eight weeks of it's life costs anything like $2,000- no matter what food they're using.

Anyhow, I don't know what can be done now that you've already put a deposit down. Call them and raise hell over the extra fees, I guess. But in the end, if they won't back down, and they won't refund your $500, I don't know what you can do.

Live and learn, though, I guess. Next time, after your dog is grown and lived a nice long full life and dies in his sleep from old age, when you're looking for a puppy again, beware of people charging outrageous prices with lots of strings attached. My puppy only cost $300 total, no deposit, no strings, and he's a great pet. I even had to borrow that and it took me a year to pay off, but it was worth it.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

NO. NO, $2000 is NOT A RED FLAG. Can we move past that part of it? Good grief.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

I don't think its ballsy at all and its very much how I do things.. 

I charge for hte puppy ... 
then when you come to pick up the puppy I ask you to bring other checks. 

I ask you to bring a check for the AKC for registration... (some breeders send the registration papers home with you so you can fill them out and send them in... I prefer to make sure they are done correctly and send them in myself, it is the same money) 

I ask you to bring a check for the microchip (some breeders send the papers home and tell yo uto fill it out and send the check in yourself, again I prefer to do it myself to be sure it is done) 

and yes if you don't pick up your puppy at the scheduled time then sorry I have to pay for another set of shots and another vet visit and food etc etc... all things that again you would have to pay for anyway... 

for me the paperwork is something I do because I want to be sure the registered names are done correctly and that the puppies all end up being registered the way I want them registered ie. limited or full as well as the registered names written correctly... by my doing it and sending them in I make sure that they are done right and people send in the paperwork... it doesn't cost you any more because you would have to send in the paperwork and write the check anyway... its just by my doing it I make sure its done... the microchip is exaclty the same I do it so I can make sure that the chips are registered and sent in... if I sent the paperwork with you, you would still have to send it in and write the check.. its just I do it so I can make sure its done... we sit at the table and do it together. 

as far as the board.... I have never had to do that... and within a week or two is fine with me... I have held puppies for folks before but if I have to take pup to the vet or start housebreaking and training and pay for food (especially as I feed raw) then if you go much over a week or two then yeah it starts costing me money. 
just my two cents


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

The breeder does register the litter with the AKC, the puppies are each given a number. In addition to what the breeder has paid, an additional $20 needs to be paid by the new owner ( I thought I had paid more ??? ) when the puppy gets named and the registration is transferred to them. My breeder had me fill it out in front of her, then I went on-line and entered the info. This is completely normal.

I paid over $50 each to have my pets microchipped at an East Coast vet, and then there is an addition charge to have them registered - so $20 is a bargain. Any responsible owner is going to do this anyhow.

The bill for the 9 week vaccinations seems appropriate. It is part of the puppy series of shots, the owner would be paying a higher bill for that appt. The puppy needs those vaccinations at that time.

I have heard of the boarding fees, but I think that is more to protect the breeder from somebody using her as a puppy sitting, puppy training service. The weeks between 8 and 10 can be a critical socialization time, and if the puppies are ready, they should be in their forever homes. This prevents a family from saying, "Yes, I'll pick up the puppy after our month's vacation to Europe."

The bottom line is a well bred golden retriever is expensive, if you are on the East coast or West coast it will be higher. I bet that breeder is not making any money off the litter.

One thing you didn't mention, and you might want to ask - I had to pay a 5 percent Massachusetts sales tax on Brady.


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## goldenlover17 (Jan 25, 2012)

Shalva said:


> I ask you to bring a check for the AKC for registration... (some breeders send the registration papers home with you so you can fill them out and send them in... I prefer to make sure they are done correctly and send them in myself, it is the same money)


Looking on the AKC website, I saw that it only costs $25 to register the litter and then $2 a puppy. Is that not what it actually costs? I was thinking that $20 for the registration was very high if they're having 8 puppies, should only cost the breeder $5 a pup?


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## GoldenCamper (Dec 21, 2009)

Shalva said:


> I don't think its ballsy at all and its very much how I do things..
> 
> I charge for hte puppy ...
> then when you come to pick up the puppy I ask you to bring other checks.
> ...


But do you let people know from the start the extra costs? I think that is the issue here, the "oh by the way" extra costs the original poster of this thread was not made aware of. If one is made aware of additional costs from the get go, fine. If not it leaves a sour taste.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

goldenlover17 said:


> Looking on the AKC website, I saw that it only costs $25 to register the litter and then $2 a puppy. Is that not what it actually costs? I was thinking that $20 for the registration was very high if they're having 8 puppies, should only cost the breeder $5 a pup?


The breeder has to register the litter in order for the owner to be able to register the dog. I think if you register in the first 24 months, it will be $20. After that the registration price goes up.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

goldenlover17 said:


> Looking on the AKC website, I saw that it only costs $25 to register the litter and then $2 a puppy. Is that not what it actually costs? I was thinking that $20 for the registration was very high if they're having 8 puppies, should only cost the breeder $5 a pup?


I just registered Kira about a month ago and it was $20 to do it online. Perhaps you're talking about the litter registration?


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

Every single AKC dog I have had in my life starting from my pet store puppy, to the BYB's, to my now GR from a reputable show breeder, ( that is 5 ), I have had to pay the AKC regististration fee separate and none were mentioned before hand. I guess it is just assumed that if you are buying an AKC puppy, you know that.

I really think she has the boarding fees because somewhere along the line she got screwed by somebody. Sometimes those things are there in writing, for protection, but are not actually followed through except in extreme cases.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Here you can see the registration costs as they are broken down. 

Fee Schedule

Now I'm confuzzled. Did the AKC raise the price for registration?


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Yes, I believe as of 1/1/12 some costs went up - I forgot about that actually. The most annoying is the $10 charge for a co-owner. Lame. That's why i got Kira's in before then


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

*Off topic*



goldenlover17 said:


> Thanks for all the replies. The breeder is Windy Ridges out of Flemington, NJ. The price is comparable to breeders in the area. I think overall, I'm just shocked that the additional charges aren't included in the purchase price of the dog and it leaves me feeling conned, like now they're adding on more money, trying to nickle & dime me to death. The fact that they didn't disclose any of this before I put my deposit down is close to fraud. I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks this is wrong of them to do. Now I have to decide my next steps. I think the biggest issue for me is the AKC registration, I don't care if my puppy is registered, but I believe she is required to be. So if it's a requirement for them to do it, they should be paying for it.
> 
> The last golden I got was 10 years ago, but all of this was included in the purchase price.


Their Copper was my Lucky's 1/2 sister. Same father different mother. Just discovered this recently. I don't know them just admire their pups from a far.

The breeder registers the litter but the new owner finishes registering the puppy. She is required to register the litter but not each puppy. She wants to ensure her puppies are properly registered.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

I just went on her website and looked at her buyer's contract and her non-breeding contract. She has five very detailed pages, and one of the items says 

You also understand that today you will fill out the AKC Registration papers with the Breeder and write out a check made payable to the AKC for the exact amount of fees, so that the Breeder can send the papers in. The Breeder does this to make sure that all of their puppies are registered. 

It does not tell the price, but it is very clear. The microchipping statement was not as clear.


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

@ GC - Exactly.....


*If* the seller has made it a stipulation that the pup would not leave the property unless registered with AKC and the chip registered (neither of which is 'required') and did not tell the buyer that they would be responsible for those costs above and beyond the purchase price of the pup _before_ they sent in their deposit.....well then it is a ballsy move! Afterall, what is the buyer going to do....forgo the deposit? Not likely...they are going to pay the extra and be left with a sour taste...

FWIW: I think the OP should call the breeder and clear this up in person. This could be a big misunderstanding. The breeder may have been just suggesting that the buyer register the pup and the chip ...and that the prices they can expect are XYZ...




GoldenCamper said:


> But do you let people know from the start the extra costs? I think that is the issue here, the "oh by the way" extra costs the original poster of this thread was not made aware of. If one is made aware of additional costs from the get go, fine. If not it leaves a sour taste.


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

thanks cubby...I read your post after mine...


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## goldenlover17 (Jan 25, 2012)

LibertyME said:


> @ GC - Exactly.....
> *If* the seller has made it a stipulation that the pup would not leave the property unless registered with AKC and the chip registered (neither of which is 'required') and did not tell the buyer that they would be responsible for those costs above and beyond the purchase price of the pup _before_ they sent in their deposit.....well then it is a ballsy move! Afterall, what is the buyer going to do....forgo the deposit? Not likely...they are going to pay the extra and be left with a sour taste...
> 
> FWIW: I think the OP should call the breeder and clear this up in person. This could be a big misunderstanding. The breeder may have been just suggesting that the buyer register the pup and the chip ...and that the prices they can expect are XYZ...


Thanks...the info package they sent me this week is clear and I can't imagine it's a misunderstanding. She clearly states that it is required to complete and bring checks, but doesn't specifically state I won't be able to take the pup home if payment isn't received. This could have all been easily avoided had she specified that these costs were extra to begin with. I'm going to call her and confirm. I'm not _as_ upset anymore, especially since the AKC registration isn't being overcharged...I thought that she was trying to take advantage of the buyer. Still not happy about these extra charges, I'll definitely do the microchipping, not sure if they'll allow me to not AKC register the pup. I'll also suggest that she update her information she provides to prospective buyers to clearly state that "additional fees may apply"


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

This is a side topic, but looking at those fees... omg.

There are breeders out there who hold the registration papers altogether until the people spay/neuter the pets. And they have a spay/neuter thing written into the contract which can be anywhere between 12 months and 24 months. 

All I can say is that if that is what they plan on doing, they better start paying the registration for the owners.  

Pet registration within 12 months of litter registration = $30
Over 12 months = $65
Over 24 months = $95! 

Unless the breeder plans to hold off litter registration for a while and pay the $65 fee. 

!


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

goldenlover17 said:


> Thanks...the info package they sent me this week is clear and I can't imagine it's a misunderstanding. She clearly states that it is required to complete and bring checks, but doesn't specifically state I won't be able to take the pup home if payment isn't received. This could have all been easily avoided had she specified that these costs were extra to begin with. I'm going to call her and confirm. I'm not _as_ upset anymore, especially since the AKC registration isn't being overcharged...I thought that she was trying to take advantage of the buyer. Still not happy about these extra charges, I'll definitely do the microchipping, not sure if they'll allow me to not AKC register the pup. I'll also suggest that she update her information she provides to prospective buyers to clearly state that "additional fees may apply"


Don't forget to ask her if there is a sales tax... I imagine NJ has pretty high taxes.


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## Capt Jack (Dec 29, 2011)

Your last statement is the one that caught my eye."They are picking the puppy that goes home with each family" Your paying $2045.50 for your puppy & don't get to pick the one you want?


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## My Big Kahuna (Dec 14, 2011)

Capt Jack said:


> Your last statement is the one that caught my eye."They are picking the puppy that goes home with each family" Your paying $2045.50 for your puppy & don't get to pick the one you want?


This is what caught my eye as well... I've been following this thread but haven't weighed in because I believe there are more educated people on this forum on this topic... I am curious about this one, though...


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I really think people should stop critiquing every little thing about this breeder. It was a lack of communication with this particular puppy buyer and can be handled without criticizing the breeder's methods, price of the puppy, etc. And for what it's worth, many reputable breeders place puppies with the family they feel is the best fit. They are with the puppies every day, puppy buyers see a snapshot if they visit or on the day they pick up the puppy.


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## Rainheart (Nov 28, 2010)

Capt Jack said:


> Your last statement is the one that caught my eye."They are picking the puppy that goes home with each family" Your paying $2045.50 for your puppy & don't get to pick the one you want?


Actually, I'd prefer it if my breeder choose my pup for me. I paid $1500 for Beamer and my breeder picked the PERFECT dog for me and my lifestyle... I definitely had my eye on one particular puppy (and it turned out I got that one!) But still, the breeder is the one who is with the litter for 8 whole weeks. I never had a chance to visit them (as they were 6 hours away) so I would just be picking a puppy from a 30 minute visit... that doesn't make sense to me.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

Capt Jack said:


> Your last statement is the one that caught my eye."They are picking the puppy that goes home with each family" Your paying $2045.50 for your puppy & don't get to pick the one you want?


My breeder did not do this, but it is not uncommon to have a breeder match the puppy with the family. Many people on this forum had the breeder pick the puppy for them. The breeders have spent have watched these puppies evolve everyday, and know which ones will be the alpha, which ones more laid back or even which ones will be good for agility or therapy. By matching their personalities with the owners, there less of a chance that these dogs will end up homeless in the future.


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## cubbysan (Mar 13, 2007)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> I really think people should stop critiquing every little thing about this breeder. It was a lack of communication with this particular puppy buyer and can be handled without criticizing the breeder's methods, price of the puppy, etc. And for what it's worth, many reputable breeders place puppies with the family they feel is the best fit. They are with the puppies every day, puppy buyers see a snapshot if they visit or on the day they pick up the puppy.


 
I think this thread is educating people. People on this forum for a while already know these things, but people that are just learning are just getting surprised by things. Maybe we can block the name of the actual breeder.


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## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

goldenlover17 said:


> Thanks for all the replies. The breeder is Windy Ridges out of Flemington, NJ.


:wave: Hi All, I just want to make it clear that I/we are in no way affiliated with this Windy Ridges. We are Windy Ridge (singular) in Southern Oregon. I did however sell two puppies to New Jersey homes because the buyers of my puppies were put off by this kennels lack of response to their inquiry. (Plus the fact that my pups went for about half what they are asking and I didn't charge any of the "extra fees". In fact each puppy went home with about $50 in extras that I paid for....I was a puppy shopping fiend for my babies, they got dog food, bowls, leashes, Ian Dunbar book, toys, bitter apple, Golden calendar with all important dates (like when shots and worming were due, etc) and sooo much more!


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## NapaValleyGolden (Mar 24, 2008)

Both of my dogs were picked for us by the breeders after lengthy conversations with them, and both have been wonderful dogs. I like having the breeder, who has been with the litter for 6+ weeks, make the decision on what puppy fits best with a family.


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## Capt Jack (Dec 29, 2011)

Didn't mean to be critcal of the breeder I had just never heard of this before & it struck me as odd


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Capt Jack said:


> Your last statement is the one that caught my eye."They are picking the puppy that goes home with each family" Your paying $2045.50 for your puppy & don't get to pick the one you want?





My Big Kahuna said:


> This is what caught my eye as well... I've been following this thread but haven't weighed in because I believe there are more educated people on this forum on this topic... I am curious about this one, though...



One oof the reasons to go to a reputable breeder is that they CARE dearly that the right pup goes to the best possible home. A family coming to the see the pups for a hour or two before they pick it up has no way to make an informed decision. The breeder has lived 24/7 with these pups for the past 7-8 weeks. They know them better than anyone. It is actually part of the price a person pays. IMHO


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## My Big Kahuna (Dec 14, 2011)

AmbikaGR said:


> One oof the reasons to go to a reputable breeder is that they CARE dearly that the right pup goes to the best possible home. A family coming to the see the pups for a hour or two before they pick it up has no way to make an informed decision. The breeder has lived 24/7 with these pups for the past 7-8 weeks. They know them better than anyone. It is actually part of the price a person pays. IMHO


Thanks! I've never come across a breeder like that I guess haha... Wish there were more like them that care that much!


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## golden_eclipse (Apr 1, 2011)

Neither parent is a finished champion and the dam doesn't have any titles at all...The sire has a CCA which a relatively simple title to obtain. 
-The sire has a heart clearance by a practitioner. 
-The Dam is missing a heart clearance, and neither of her parents have any clearances except her dam has an elbow clearance (missing hips though and heart and eyes). 

Personally there is nothing in this breeding displaying that the breeder has investing any kind of money in producing. Just because they are NJ does not give them a right to charge more. 

In my neck of the woods a few hours north, you get a puppy from two finished parents, all clearances, all the way back in the pedigree, for $1200 and you aren't nickel and dimed to death. 

Btw, I willing hold puppies at no extra cost if that mean when the puppy goes home it is the best time for the owners to give him or her the best care. Obviously there is a line, but no one in many years has pushed that. 

Bottom line, I would not pay $2000 for this breeding, the clearances aren't in place, and neither parent has proven them self in "competition".


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Ya know... I pick every puppy for people nobody picks I tell them that right at the beginning and I should also add that every one of my pups that I have here that i got from another breeder was picked for me.. INCLUDING 9 mos old Natalie... the breeder knows more about their puppies than anyone and people tend to pick puppies for the wrong reason often misinterpreting their behavior

The other thing I want to say.... is people rail against the breeder who does this as a business.... those are the breeders that have everything down to a science... The rest of us are regular old people.... YES BREEDERS ARE PEOPLE who forget to mention every last thing... who try to remember everything to say to everyone but when you are dealing with 8 puppy families sometimes you remember to tell one thing to someone but not to someone else.... for petes sake we are people too and if you never ever forget to mention something good for you... 

ya know what else... I don't think it's unreasonable... would anyone think its unreasonable if the breeder stuck the forms in a folder and gave them to the family ... it would still cost the same... the only difference here is that the breeder wants to make sure its all done. Now I am not addressing the litter, the parents the clearances etc. and yes your location does make a difference as to how much you charge... 

ya know I'll tell ya... to the original poster... this is not a good way to start off your relationship with your breeder who sounds like they are trying to do it right (not addressing hte breeding itself) and make sure the paperwork is done. Honestly 45 bucks....and you are having a fit ... and calling it fraud... shoot if you were on my list and I found this out I would refund your deposit and bounce you off my waiting list faster than you could count to three...


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## golden_eclipse (Apr 1, 2011)

Why should location matter? If that was the case, I think in Maine we would charge the most (since shows are so far away, cost of living is higher (heating, traveling to stores, cost of everything is somewhat higher, taxes, real-estate at least in the south is very high). New Jersey is packed with shows almost every weekend, they have less cold weather....And their medium income is much higher (assuming the breeder works like everyone else, they probably make more than a breeder in Maine as their regular job). I can't imagine showing/raising dogs in New jersey is more expensive than Maine, but the market can probably sustain a higher price, is that a legitimate reason to charge more? 

We charged $900 for a litter where both parents had all clearances and were finished in Canada, we now charge $1200, after multiple people asked us why we were so cheap. I still get that on occasion, to me that is absurd with the chances of a problem occurring even with cleared parents being their, I think its unethical to charge a large amount for a pet quality puppy. Ie, $2000 is too much...I'll happily pay that for a show prospect, but a pet puppy...come on. Its one more reason people continue to support back yard breeders.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

kdowningxc said:


> Neither parent is a finished champion and the dam doesn't have any titles at all...The sire has a CCA which a relatively simple title to obtain.
> -The sire has a heart clearance by a practitioner.
> -The Dam is missing a heart clearance, and neither of her parents have any clearances except her dam has an elbow clearance (missing hips though and heart and eyes).
> 
> ...


I wouldn't pay $2000 for the breeding you described either. (I didn't/don't have time to look at the website or pedigree but will later) 

I would (and have), however, pay $2000 for a show prospect (both Jack and Kira, our Chloe was less) with finished parents with all health clearances.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

kdowningxc said:


> Why should location matter? If that was the case, I think in Maine we would charge the most (since shows are so far away, cost of living is higher (heating, traveling to stores, cost of everything is somewhat higher, taxes, real-estate at least in the south is very high). New Jersey is packed with shows almost every weekend, they have less cold weather....And their medium income is much higher (assuming the breeder works like everyone else, they probably make more than a breeder in Maine as their regular job). I can't imagine showing/raising dogs in New jersey is more expensive than Maine, but the market can probably sustain a higher price, is that a legitimate reason to charge more?
> 
> We charged $900 for a litter where both parents had all clearances and were finished in Canada, we now charge $1200, after multiple people asked us why we were so cheap. I still get that on occasion, to me that is absurd with the chances of a problem occurring even with cleared parents being their, I think its unethical to charge a large amount for a pet quality puppy. Ie, $2000 is too much...I'll happily pay that for a show prospect, but a pet puppy...come on. Its one more reason people continue to support back yard breeders.



because it does... region matters with everything that you buy... and things are more expensive in other regions so if the breeder (and I dont know this breeder) finds that her vet care costs more because of her region... and food costs are more because of her region (and yes it is more expensive down there than it is here in Northern New England) then that is reflected in the price of puppies. I know a breeder nearby who charges 1200 and some other responsible breeders were upset that she was "undercutting" them, whatever that means. I have friends down in Northern NJ ... Westchester County New York and honestly it is way more expensive down there for evertyhing... A friend of mine in California is paying 3X what I pay here for a heart clearance... it is the market... I know that the going price for a puppy here in NH is 1500-1800, NY and NJ 1800 is not unreasonable, MN and midwest 1200 and 1800-2000 in california.... 

now whether this is or isn't a good breeder I am not even addressing... the breeder doesn't sound like someone I would want a puppy from but that is neither here nor there and this is straying very far from the original discussion


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## golden_eclipse (Apr 1, 2011)

Shalva said:


> because it does... region matters with everything that you buy... and things are more expensive in other regions so if the breeder (and I dont know this breeder) finds that her vet care costs more because of her region... and food costs are more because of her region (and yes it is more expensive down there than it is here in Northern New England) then that is reflected in the price of puppies. I know a breeder nearby who charges 1200 and some other responsible breeders were upset that she was "undercutting" them, whatever that means. I have friends down in Northern NJ ... Westchester County New York and honestly it is way more expensive down there for evertyhing... A friend of mine in California is paying 3X what I pay here for a heart clearance... it is the market...
> 
> now whether this is or isn't a good breeder I am not even addressing... the breeder doesn't sound like someone I would want a puppy from but that is neither here nor there and this is straying very far from the original discussion


Yeah I guess, I just see eye and heart clinics more often down in NJ area and it seems about the same price as up here. I mean if I go for a normal appointment for cardiologist its 100 bucks, if an echo is needed its more like $250, so if it really costs them $750 for a heart exam I can see that, but I just don't think that is the case. Also there is the online market that I think evens things out a lot among regions, they really can't charge that much more for dog food or any pet supplies, because you can just order it online and get it cheaper. (and this particular breeder didn't pay the cardiologist fee anyways, so she saved money there). 

I mean I just get to the point that I have heard puppy mills and commercial breeding is pretty bad in the NJ, PA area (according the HVgoldens). Could you say that people are turned off to spending $2k on a puppy that has a chance at problems, when they can get a puppy a lot cheaper from a commercial breeders and gamble that something won't go wrong? My goal is to make well bred dogs more accessible to the average non-elite family. That is really the best way to get the education out there. It doesn't mean you won't get a great home for a puppy, if they just don't want to spend 2k dollars on the initial costs, if they plan on doing a bunch of classes and understand the cost of vet bills and the risk of a problem, even with cleared parents. Again, if the breeder really did finish both parents and had an incredible pedigree with impeccable health behind it, than I might change my mind on a $2k price for a pet puppy, but in this situation it most certainly is not the case. The price for this litter is purely based on the market in the area, and to me that is treating the puppies like a product, which I hope a reputable breeder doesn't view them that way.


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## golden_eclipse (Apr 1, 2011)

So in Canada where they pay a dollar to two dollars more for a gallon of gas, 15% sales tax, enormous income tax, 6-7 dollars for a gallon of milk, they should be charge twice what they charge in NJ.....so then why did I get my puppy from Alberta for $1500, a show prospect, both parents finished, both had all clearances.......I can't imagine what they pay in vet bills..(my family from Canada claims its quite high as well).


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

kdowningxc said:


> Yeah I guess, I just see eye and heart clinics more often down in NJ area and it seems about the same price as up here. I mean if I go for a normal appointment for cardiologist its 100 bucks, if an echo is needed its more like $250, so if it really costs them $750 for a heart exam I can see that, but I just don't think that is the case. Also there is the online market that I think evens things out a lot among regions, they really can't charge that much more for dog food or any pet supplies, because you can just order it online and get it cheaper. (and this particular breeder didn't pay the cardiologist fee anyways, so she saved money there).
> 
> I mean I just get to the point that I have heard puppy mills and commercial breeding is pretty bad in the NJ, PA area (according the HVgoldens). Could you say that people are turned off to spending $2k on a puppy that has a chance at problems, when they can get a puppy a lot cheaper from a commercial breeders and gamble that something won't go wrong? My goal is to make well bred dogs more accessible to the average non-elite family. That is really the best way to get the education out there. It doesn't mean you won't get a great home for a puppy, if they just don't want to spend 2k dollars on the initial costs, if they plan on doing a bunch of classes and understand the cost of vet bills and the risk of a problem, even with cleared parents. Again, if the breeder really did finish both parents and had an incredible pedigree with impeccable health behind it, than I might change my mind on a $2k price for a pet puppy, but in this situation it most certainly is not the case. The price for this litter is purely based on the market in the area, and to me that is treating the puppies like a product, which I hope a reputable breeder doesn't view them that way.


Jus from what you said I can tell you that a heart clearance for me near concord NH is 125 and the doppler brings it up to 400 so that is a big difference just in that short difference... 

I am not saying that I think this is the best place to get a puppy or that I personally think that hte prices of puppies isn't a bit nuts and I agree with you about people going to byb because of this... but the market is what the market is... I know that even just gas getting around down there is about 40 cents mroe a gallon than here ... so it is more expensive and depending on how they did hte breeding is vet costs...

Look... I agree with you... I think the prices are crazy but most of us are just charging what everyone else is charging and even at 1500 for my last litter of 8 we ended up in the red and thats not even including the whole issue with taking Bing back and providing his surgery which that in itself was mroe than we took in on the whole litter even without taking out expenses. I paid 2000 for my wolfhound puppy... and she was one of a litter of 7 or 8 as I recall.... but I also don't think it hurts for folks to save... and unfortunately if they can't afford the puppy how are they going to afford the increasingly high priced vet bills... I used to think that was just justifying high prices but honestly my Bing has been very sick this past week and we are in the $2500 range already and haven't even gotten to the CT scan yet and we still have lots more that needs to be done... an emergency vet bill at this point in time is likely to be in the thousands at this point... I don't know how to fix it... i understand your point and on some level agree that owning a dog should not be an elitist thing ... but I also have mixed emotions.


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## golden_eclipse (Apr 1, 2011)

Breeding will always be a loosing money situation (if done right) in my opinion. That is why its a hobby. Of course if you can no longer afford a hobby you can't do it anymore. So I think a case by case understanding is the best way to judge if the price is fair or not. But it is a struggle to get it into people's mind that just a bit more money up front can save a lot down the road (the problem is, sometimes stuff goes wrong even when everything was done by the book ).


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## golden_eclipse (Apr 1, 2011)

btw, I got to port-city in Portsmouth, but so far haven't needed an echo in many years. Although I can get it cheaper at Angell in Boston. I think they are $195 for an echo. Tufts is also reasonable. Eye exams at our normal opthamologist vet (donovan) out of Mass is I think $40, but in Portsmouth its $50 (with CERF form). At the clinics its $35..


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

Personally, I love it when these threads start to meander a little bit... This one reminded me that breeders are people too and just doing the best they can mostly, stuff happens, communication up front is always best, always remember when considering price of puppy that a lot of factors are involved, 
but if I'm paying more than I would for a rescue, then I want parents with titles and above all, health clearance done properly... and as I've always thought, I want my breeder picking the best puppy for me.


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## goldenlover17 (Jan 25, 2012)

Shalva said:


> YES BREEDERS ARE PEOPLE who forget to mention every last thing... who try to remember everything to say to everyone but when you are dealing with 8 puppy families sometimes you remember to tell one thing to someone but not to someone else.... for petes sake we are people too and if you never ever forget to mention something good for you...
> 
> ya know I'll tell ya... to the original poster... this is not a good way to start off your relationship with your breeder who sounds like they are trying to do it right (not addressing hte breeding itself) and make sure the paperwork is done. Honestly 45 bucks....and you are having a fit ... and calling it fraud... shoot if you were on my list and I found this out I would refund your deposit and bounce you off my waiting list faster than you could count to three...


This is a bit harsh...and BTW, the breeder provided a Word document carefully laid out and planned with all of the information prior to me putting in a deposit regarding the cost, the process and what they provide, including microchipping and AKC registration :uhoh:...this was completely omitting any mention of charging extra for these items. And I've since learned from my original post that the AKC registration does cost $20...I thought she was completely overcharging me. In the end, I will likely just bring it up as a concern to the breeder that the additional charges were never mentioned in any of the paperwork she provided, and it really leads the buyer to assume that the costs that she incurs are covered by the purchase price. She should really consider updating her document to reflect this so as to not put off future customers.

I am completely naive about the pedigrees though and quite sad to learn that the parents aren't as good as I had thought. She provided all clearances and everything. As for the price, it is the going price in the area, there are a few breeders that sell for $1700 or $1800, but not many.

Hopefully it will all work out in the end and I'll have a wonderful puppy. :crossfing


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

kdowningxc said:


> btw, I got to port-city in Portsmouth, but so far haven't needed an echo in many years. Although I can get it cheaper at Angell in Boston. I think they are $195 for an echo. Tufts is also reasonable. Eye exams at our normal opthamologist vet (donovan) out of Mass is I think $40, but in Portsmouth its $50 (with CERF form). At the clinics its $35..


its 395 for an echo at in town in woburn... and remember there is alot more to breeding than just clearances.. but I am not goign to get into that ... there are plenty of threads about the costs of breeding... 

all I am saying is that right or wrong... the price of puppies is what the market will bear...


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

goldenlover17 said:


> This is a bit harsh...and BTW, the breeder provided a Word document carefully laid out and planned with all of the information prior to me putting in a deposit regarding the cost, the process and what they provide, including microchipping and AKC registration :uhoh:...this was completely omitting any mention of charging extra for these items. And I've since learned from my original post that the AKC registration does cost $20...I thought she was completely overcharging me. In the end, I will likely just bring it up as a concern to the breeder that the additional charges were never mentioned in any of the paperwork she provided, and it really leads the buyer to assume that the costs that she incurs are covered by the purchase price. She should really consider updating her document to reflect this so as to not put off future customers.
> 
> I am completely naive about the pedigrees though and quite sad to learn that the parents aren't as good as I had thought. She provided all clearances and everything. As for the price, it is the going price in the area, there are a few breeders that sell for $1700 or $1800, but not many.
> 
> Hopefully it will all work out in the end and I'll have a wonderful puppy. :crossfing


it is harsh but honestly your language in discussing your breeder was harsh and if you are feeling so negative about her/him before you even start then that does not bode well... 

If I think back about the litters I have had ... I think I remembered to mention the extra checks to some folks and not to others... I did remember a couple weeks before pups went home once I knew what pup was going to what person to put it on the list of things to bring when picking up your puppy... but honestly when I am dealing wiht a pile of puppies and answering questions, and interviewing famillies... and running to the vet and caring for the babies I honestly will forget stuff like that.. and really if someone approached me angrily about it... as i perceived you were angry I would give them back their money... I have a lifelong relationship with my puppy people, most of them are my friends now.. even after their dogs are gone... and when it starts on that level thats not what I want. I have a puppy right now that hte owners got upset with me about something and I don't hear from them and i think about that puppy every single day ... and that I don't see her or hear from them as to how she is doing and it makes me very sad just thinking about it... and had I known what I know now I would have never given them the pup... so if you are negative and upset before you even get your pup then thats just not good

I hope that you can get it sorted out


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## Angelina (Aug 11, 2011)

Good luck to you.


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## golden_eclipse (Apr 1, 2011)

goldenlover17 said:


> This is a bit harsh...and BTW, the breeder provided a Word document carefully laid out and planned with all of the information prior to me putting in a deposit regarding the cost, the process and what they provide, including microchipping and AKC registration :uhoh:...this was completely omitting any mention of charging extra for these items. And I've since learned from my original post that the AKC registration does cost $20...I thought she was completely overcharging me. In the end, I will likely just bring it up as a concern to the breeder that the additional charges were never mentioned in any of the paperwork she provided, and it really leads the buyer to assume that the costs that she incurs are covered by the purchase price. She should really consider updating her document to reflect this so as to not put off future customers.
> 
> I am completely naive about the pedigrees though and quite sad to learn that the parents aren't as good as I had thought. She provided all clearances and everything. As for the price, it is the going price in the area, there are a few breeders that sell for $1700 or $1800, but not many.
> 
> Hopefully it will all work out in the end and I'll have a wonderful puppy. :crossfing



I would ask to see a Cardiologist report for both parents. This is very important, a regular vet can sometimes miss a murmur that is SAS (which can cause sudden death.) If she can only provide a practitioner clearance on the heart (the ofa website shows a practitioner clearance for the sire). And absolutely no clearance for the Dam. Then I highly recommend walking away and asking for a refund, because she doesn't follow the COE as set by the GRCA and you mislead to believe she had completely the necessary clearances. . 

If was me I would also ask information about the Dam's parents, if they have no clearances like it seems on the OFA website, that is almost as bad as not having clearances on the parents. The genes are passed down, health issues don't just disappear if one dog gets lucky and their phenotype doesn't happen to be the bad genes (they still carry the bad ones).


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> Remember, money does not guarantee health, neither do clearances and if you are looking for a family dog versus a show pup; well, why not?


You do get what you want in a dog when you research pedigrees and breeders though.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

I am getting fairly tired of justifying why goldens need to have health clearances and why someone should go to a reputable breeder .... ya know not everyone who doesn't wear a seatbelt dies so gee don't bother... and not everyone who wears a seatbelt lives so gosh go ahead don't bother wearing it... just ridiculous if you want my opinion...


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Angelina said:


> And if it doesn't work out there is always rescue!
> 
> My girl Angelina is from show lines with clearances...but hey, she still needed to be rehomed.
> 
> ...


I understand what you're saying, and I think rescue is always an very good option for someone looking for a companion. I just don't think it's necessary to undercut or minimize the value of obtaining health clearances and looking for health clearances in a pedigree in order to make your point. There are good reasons to consider rescue without devaluing the benefits of a pedigree with generations of clearances.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

kdowningxc said:


> Neither parent is a finished champion and the dam doesn't have any titles at all...The sire has a CCA which a relatively simple title to obtain.
> -The sire has a heart clearance by a practitioner.
> -The Dam is missing a heart clearance, and neither of her parents have any clearances except her dam has an elbow clearance (missing hips though and heart and eyes).
> 
> ...



In a ideal world all things you want would be there, but we do not live in an ideal world. 
Clearances - Heart clearance by a practitioner is far from ideal. 
Missing heart clearance on the dam? are you sure, have you asked the breeder? Does the breeder state on their website they are all filed with OFA? 
Missing clearances oon the parents. Again are you sure?
What if the hips were done via PennHip?
Heart clearances do not have to sent in to OFA.
Eye clearances should be sent into CERF but it is still a clearance even if the clear report is not sent in to CERF. 

No "nickel and dime to death" from where I am sitting, especially if these costs are listed in contract. 

I won't debate the cost other than to ask do you know what the average price for a home on 1/4 acre of land would cost in New Jersey compared to Maine? Same dirt, wood, mortar, etc. but far from the same price. 

Some breeders have experienced puppy people would take advantage oof their generosity and not pick up the pup in a timely as agreed to. This is one way to avoid that. I have seen similar clauses in stud contracts for the very same reason. Just helps to keep honest people honest. 

Again ideally the parents would be proven, but there are numerous well known established breeders who will breed before proving the dogs in a venue. Does not devalue the pups any in my opinion.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

goldenlover17 said:


> Hopefully it will all work out in the end and I'll have a wonderful puppy. :crossfing



We will keep our finger crossed also for you. Just as we do for EVERY family getting a new pup no matter the breeder or parents of the pups. :wavey:


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## Angelina (Aug 11, 2011)

Good luck to you.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

No, I just said there are many reasons to consider rescue without having to de-value or minimize the benefit of clearances in a pedigree. it has nothing to do with a your opinion versus my opinion. 

If the reason you think people should consider rescue is that there are many healthy dogs without homes then say that. The focus doesn't need to be on why you think health clearances could be worthless because your dog could get cancer/ACL issues anyway. Sometimes it's the way you say/type things that makes all the difference.


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## Angelina (Aug 11, 2011)

Good luck to you.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Who's trashing your opinion? I certainly wasn't. My first response said "I understand what you're saying..." Take a breath, no one is attacking you.


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## My Big Kahuna (Dec 14, 2011)

Let's all start talking about how awesome goldens are  That's essentially why we're all here anyways, isn't it? 

I'll start: I LOVE GOLDENS! 

haha


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## Angelina (Aug 11, 2011)

Good idea Kahuna, you are a smart pup!!
Sorry I ever voiced my opinion to begin with. K


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Capt Jack said:


> Your last statement is the one that caught my eye."They are picking the puppy that goes home with each family" Your paying $2045.50 for your puppy & don't get to pick the one you want?


That's really not unusual, breeders know the personality of the puppies the best and are able to match them to the right family.


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

AmbikaGR said:


> One oof the reasons to go to a reputable breeder is that they CARE dearly that the right pup goes to the best possible home. A family coming to the see the pups for a hour or two before they pick it up has no way to make an informed decision. The breeder has lived 24/7 with these pups for the past 7-8 weeks. They know them better than anyone. It is actually part of the price a person pays. IMHO


Hang on a sec. I'm not disputing that some people might prefer that system and have reasons for preferring it, but I think it's also fair to note that some people really wouldn't be comfortable with it and have reasons for not being comfortable with it.

For me, I find it important to get myself comfortable with an individual puppy and do a little bit of bonding with it. I don't want someone to pre-select a dog for me any more than I'd want to participate in an arranged marriage. If I'm going to go through all the difficulties of raising a puppy, and have a canine housemate for the next decade or more, I want to meet the puppy and select him or her myself. I wouldn't trust friends or family to pick out a puppy for me, let alone a breeder I don't know.

When I was a child, we picked the puppy from the litter who came up to me and licked me, and hung around to be petted and played with me. And he grew up to be a very friendly affectionate dog.

As an adult, I picked a puppy who came up to me and bit me, and stuck around for 10-15 minute biting me. And he grew up to be playful and assertive and bold, sort of an alpha golden.

I feel like even though I just went to a house and picked out puppies and brought them home, I was able to establish a little bit of a bond and learn something about the ones I took home each time. I wouldn't have been comfortable with someone who thought they knew what's best for me telling me what puppy I needed to get.

Now, of course, I realize in either case it could have been (though it didn't turn out that way) that a particular puppy was in a weird mood on that particular day and it wouldn't have necessarily reflected their long-term personality. But I was prepared to love and care for my puppy whatever his personality turned out to be (within reason), just the way I would if I had a child.

I would have been really uncomfortable with someone handing me a puppy and saying "This one is your's." and not getting a chance to establish any kind of feeling for what the puppy was like beforehand.

I also feel like someone could look at my poor health and the fact that I live alone and say "We'll give you the shy inactive one" because that would seem, on the surface of things, suitable for my situation. Yet, I really prefer my dogs to be very outgoing and active. The outgoing part helps because I like to be able to play and interact with the dog as much as possible, and I like to be able to bring my dog to meet new people and take car trips and experience new things- I want a dog with a sense of adventure. And I like a dog with a decent activity level, because it helps give me incentive to push through the pain and walk as far as I can with him. A lazy dog and I would just look at each other at walk time and say "Nah, maybe later.". An active dog wants a walk and I'll fight through physical pain to make sure he gets what he needs, which in turn keeps my health from worsening further.

Like I said, I know me better than any breeder knows me. So I feel best suited to select the dog best suited for me.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Golden999 said:


> Hang on a sec. I'm not disputing that some people might prefer that system and have reasons for preferring it, but I think it's also fair to note that some people really wouldn't be comfortable with it and have reasons for not being comfortable with it.
> 
> For me, I find it important to get myself comfortable with an individual puppy and do a little bit of bonding with it. I don't want someone to pre-select a dog for me any more than I'd want to participate in an arranged marriage. If I'm going to go through all the difficulties of raising a puppy, and have a canine housemate for the next decade or more, I want to meet the puppy and select him or her myself. I wouldn't trust friends or family to pick out a puppy for me, let alone a breeder I don't know.
> 
> ...


To be honest, I felt the same way when I was pruchasing my puppy. But, I the breeder knew what I was looking for and I trusted her that she would not steer me wrong and she sure did not. I got everything I asked for. 

You might know yourself best, but you do not know that puppy best by spending 30 minutes to an hour picking a puppy out.

Reputable breeders only want the best for their puppies and they want each family to be happy with what puppy they get. If you are upfront with the breeder in what you are looking for in a puppy, they are the ones that are around them all the time.

Everyone has different opinions and that is fine, I am just stating I have been where you were.


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## goldenlover17 (Jan 25, 2012)

kdowningxc said:


> I would ask to see a Cardiologist report for both parents. This is very important, a regular vet can sometimes miss a murmur that is SAS (which can cause sudden death.) If she can only provide a practitioner clearance on the heart (the ofa website shows a practitioner clearance for the sire). And absolutely no clearance for the Dam. Then I highly recommend walking away and asking for a refund, because she doesn't follow the COE as set by the GRCA and you mislead to believe she had completely the necessary clearances. .
> 
> If was me I would also ask information about the Dam's parents, if they have no clearances like it seems on the OFA website, that is almost as bad as not having clearances on the parents. The genes are passed down, health issues don't just disappear if one dog gets lucky and their phenotype doesn't happen to be the bad genes (they still carry the bad ones).


The breeder did provide a lot of documents for me...the Dam has a cardiologist certification, saying she has a soft functional flow murmur on auscultation, but no sign of subaortic stenosis and that she is cleared for breeding. The sire only has the OFA certificate from a general practitioner.


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

kfayard said:


> To be honest, I felt the same way when I was pruchasing my puppy. But, I the breeder knew what I was looking for and I trusted her that she would not steer me wrong and she sure did not. I got everything I asked for.
> 
> You might know yourself best, but you do not know that puppy best by spending 30 minutes to an hour picking a puppy out.
> 
> ...


I don't really have any issue with someone saying "I prefer that the breeder select my puppy for me". If that's what they want and what they're comfortable with, great. That's what they should do in those circumstances. But for me individual choice is a more important factor personally.

If a breeder told me "I select the puppy for you, period.", it might not be a total deal breaker, but the price would have to be right, and I'd insist on meeting the puppy and spending time with him (or her) on the pickup day, and reserve the right to not take the puppy home if I wasn't comfortable with him (or her). I also would not agree to a deposit in that type of situation. I just can't see making a decision that'll effect me for roughly the next 10-12 years (average lifespan of a golden) completely based on someone else's evaluation instead of my own. 

I could be flexible enough to consider a puppy that is handpicked for me, but the breeder would have to in turn be flexible enough not to ask for a deposit or any form of commitment until I had some personal time with the puppy to evaluate whether he and I are a good fit.

Even when I picked up my current dog as a puppy, and got to select from all the puppies in the litter that hadn't already been claimed, and made a deal on the price over the phone, I still made clear that I would need to play with the puppies and that if I couldn't find one I felt a connection with, I wouldn't buy one. And they were fine with that. As an owner, I wanted a dog I felt a bond with, and I'm sure as breeders they wanted an owner who liked his dog and would feel a bond long-term and be a lifelong friend to the dog.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Golden999 said:


> I don't really have any issue with someone saying "I prefer that the breeder select my puppy for me". If that's what they want and what they're comfortable with, great. That's what they should do in those circumstances. But for me individual choice is a more important factor personally.
> 
> If a breeder told me "I select the puppy for you, period.", it might not be a total deal breaker, but the price would have to be right, and I'd insist on meeting the puppy and spending time with him (or her) on the pickup day, and reserve the right to not take the puppy home if I wasn't comfortable with him (or her). I also would not agree to a deposit in that type of situation. I just can't see making a decision that'll effect me for roughly the next 10-12 years (average lifespan of a golden) completely based on someone else's evaluation instead of my own.
> 
> ...


I have to say that this tells me that you haven't dealt with alot of really reputable breeders... I find this really interesting... 

I pick all puppies for people... but 
I don't even discuss price over the phone... and don't tell anyone they are getting a puppy until they come to my home and we spend time together and I screen them... there is no agreeing to a price over the phone. 

If someone does not come up to visit the puppies at least a few times when they are within driving range... they don't get a puppy. I bounced someone off my list for not coming up and visiting when she lived just an hour away.... 

I don't generally take a deposit... if I don't trust you (generic you, not you personally) to follow through and get a puppy without a deposit, I don't trust you period and I won't sell a puppy to a person I don't trust. 

it seems like you are assuming that the responsible breeder who hand picks puppy does things the same way as the person who just sells puppies and I assure there is nothing similar about the process... I make sure that I get to know every person who walks through the door...I tell everyone to get attached to all the puppies because they don't know who they will get. I do consider gender... 99% of the time when I tell them which puppy they are getting they are very excited because that is the puppy that they secretly wanted anyway.... the only exception to that rule was when I told a family what puppy they were getting and they really wanted the puppy I was keeping... this is the family that I no longer have contact with so I should have known to just bounce them off the list at that moment but hindsight is great isn't it. 

you have never had a puppy picked for you so have no experience with how this is done by a RESPONSIBLE breeder. I as someone who has had puppies picked for me would never have it any other way... even as an experienced person I recognize that my 2 hours a week with the pups can't match the knowledge hed by the responsible breeder 

the reality is that despite what you think... people love whatever puppy they get... we all love them... dogs have a way of weaseling their way into our hearts...


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Well, I have purchased two terrific Goldens sight unseen. So essentially, they were picked for me... The first one got a UD, RA, and CGC, the second one got her CDX and RE and CGC. I don't think you need that Disney moment where, oh sigh, the puppy picks you. I sleep with my pups... Who knows them better than me? And if you come at the wrong time, some will be busy and some will be sleeping....

And as a "Breeder of Merit", all pups I breed should be AKC registered...it seems to me that in order to ensure it, I should either do it myself or incorporate it into the contract...

And as far as the breeder of the litter in question, if one of the parents has only a practitioner cardiac clearance and the other has probably had an echo to make sure her murmur is physiologic, I would have a problem with that. I do not embrace practitioner heart clearances. My husband and I could do our own dogs as practitioners, but mine go to a cardiologist. 

And frankly, if registering a microchip were important to me, I would probably pay for it myself. 

I have kept pups past 8 weeks,pre arranged . I have not charged board. When it goes on two weeks, I probably should. Vaccines no problem as I get them at cost...


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

goldenlover17 said:


> The breeder did provide a lot of documents for me...the Dam has a cardiologist certification, saying she has a soft functional flow murmur on auscultation, but no sign of subaortic stenosis and that she is cleared for breeding. The sire only has the OFA certificate from a general practitioner.


I would not breed with a murmur.


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## Maddie'sMom2011 (Apr 26, 2011)

A good breeder wants to match the puppy to his/her forever family. Provides clearances & communicates to future/current owners. Everything is upfront.

This is one of the things I've learned here.

Thank you!


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Actually heart murmurs can be physiologic ...and have nothing to do with breeding soundness. OFA cardiac clearances with ECHO in it has been found to be that way. My husband has a physiologic murmur that you can only hear when he is lying down or after exercise.


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

When people came to look at my yorkie pups would tell them about each puppy in detail as well as which one would be best for them and their lifestyle. Prior to them coming to see the puppies I had extensive conversations with them over the phone or in person. Every person was happy with the puppy I directed them towards.

The more a breeder knows about you the better they can direct you which puppy is best for you. My yorkie puppies did not go to forever home until they were 12 weeks old. I did make an exception for a family friend because the puppy would be with someone 24/7 while he was at work. His sister is disabled and his older brother was retired. They also had experience with the breed and had 2 yorkies at the time they bought Toby and later they bought again from me Chelsea. I chose both puppies completely for him because I knew him and what personality would fit with his pack. He also called at least once every day with updates on the puppy.


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## golden_eclipse (Apr 1, 2011)

goldenlover17 said:


> The breeder did provide a lot of documents for me...the Dam has a cardiologist certification, saying she has a soft functional flow murmur on auscultation, but no sign of subaortic stenosis and that she is cleared for breeding. The sire only has the OFA certificate from a general practitioner.



To be honest the practitioner heart is as good as not having the clearance. If it were me I most certainly would not risk it. As sallysmom said murmurs are ok as long as a cardiologist checks it with an echo-cardiogram to ensure it isn't SAS. You really have no idea if the sire of this litter doesn't have SAS as the proper test was never completed. why did she go through with the exam for the dam and not the sire? when she probably has bred that male more than once (she has according to K9data). That is what we call in the business cutting corners...


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## golden_eclipse (Apr 1, 2011)

For $2000 it better be ideal!!!! 
Also I was bring those points up so the breeder could explain the clearances on the dam's parents (as we all know that is very important), because there is absolutely nothing listed on OFA, except the Dam's mother's elbow (usually that means they failed the hips, because rarely do people just omit ofa hip clearance as that is the standard). 

The dam did not show a clearance on OFA, which at this point is part of the COE, it must be verifiable on an online database. 
Also the sire not having a heart clearance is a deal breaker....especially for $2k dollars, that is just the nail in the coffin. 

There is just no justification for this breeder other than, houses are expensive in NJ, well guess what salaries are higher in NJ than any other state in the country...



AmbikaGR said:


> In a ideal world all things you want would be there, but we do not live in an ideal world.
> Clearances - Heart clearance by a practitioner is far from ideal.
> Missing heart clearance on the dam? are you sure, have you asked the breeder? Does the breeder state on their website they are all filed with OFA?
> Missing clearances oon the parents. Again are you sure?
> ...


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

The litter on said website has a dam with OFA hips/elbows and a current CERF. Her parents: dam has only an OFA elbow clearance, nothing else and her sire has NO clearances on OFA. The sire of the litter has OFa hips/elbows and a practitioner heart clearance.m IMO, a lot of money with not a lot,behind it.....


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

Sally's Mom said:


> Actually heart murmurs can be physiologic ...and have nothing to do with breeding soundness. OFA cardiac clearances with ECHO in it has been found to be that way. My husband has a physiologic murmur that you can only hear when he is lying down or after exercise.


My feelings are I would not breed a female that has a heart murmur. In humans the murmur can be physiologic and not cause trouble with pregnant. A woman only care 1-2 babies in utero while dogs normally carry more. The average Golden retriever size is 6 to 10 puppies much more taxing on the heart than exercise. I worry about mom. Echos are done on women with murmur during pregnancy to make sure she is okay. I highly doubt this would be done the dogs.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Heart murmurs when physiologic can be present due to fear among other things. That does not preclude breeding a dog.....


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## golden_eclipse (Apr 1, 2011)

We've had dogs that had murmurs and never knew till we went to the cardiologist, when they find it, they check with the echocardiogram, and usually if the regular vets had never heard a murmur its nothing serious, and not SAS. The flow of blood and everything is completely normal, which means their heart functions efficiently. I don't think there is a scientific reason to rule out animals with innocent murmurs, if an echocardiogram shows it is a healthy heart.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

And that leads to digression ....the issue is not about heart murmurs...


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## goldenlover17 (Jan 25, 2012)

But now everyone has me concerned...the cardiologist letter states:
"No evidence for congenital heart disease was detected, in particular subaortic stenosis. There is a soft functional flow murmur on auscultation, but an echocardiogram shows a normal heart with a aortic flow velocity of 1.9 m/s. This is the source of the murmur, but not abnormal or a sign of subaortic stenosis."

Another question, what is COE?


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

The cardiologist report says the bitch is fine. How about the daddy??? COE is the Code Of ETHICS.


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## golden_eclipse (Apr 1, 2011)

Code of ethics, it refers to the guidelines set out by the Golden retriever club of american and agreed upon by the breeders who are members of the GRCA, although the GRCA generally doesn't enforce their code of ethics, it is a very good measuring stick of whether or not a breeder is doing the right thing for the breed. 

The point is, you should be more concerned about the sire having a practitioner clearance than the dam's soft mumer that the cardiologist cleared. Another thing of more concern is the lack of clearances behind the dam. Its important to know clearance should be done on the parents, but also far back in the pedigree.


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## hvgoldens4 (Nov 25, 2009)

goldenlover17 said:


> Thanks for all the replies. The breeder is Windy Ridges out of Flemington, NJ. The price is comparable to breeders in the area. I think overall, I'm just shocked that the additional charges aren't included in the purchase price of the dog and it leaves me feeling conned, like now they're adding on more money, trying to nickle & dime me to death. The fact that they didn't disclose any of this before I put my deposit down is close to fraud. I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks this is wrong of them to do. Now I have to decide my next steps. I think the biggest issue for me is the AKC registration, I don't care if my puppy is registered, but I believe she is required to be. So if it's a requirement for them to do it, they should be paying for it.
> 
> The last golden I got was 10 years ago, but all of this was included in the purchase price.


 
I think there is a bit of confusion here. The breeder has to register the litter with the AKC for the puppies to be eligible for individual registration which was what you were talking about in a previous post where there is a set fee of $25 and $2 per puppy. When the litter is then registered with the AKC, the breeders recieves a packet of information and in that packet of information is an individual registration application for each puppy. That is what costs $20, although, I think the AKC raised the fees in January for the individual dog registrations.

I have had a lot of goldens in the 20 plus years as an owner and breeder that I have had goldens-I have never bought a puppy from any breeder that they paid for the individual dog registration(the actual AKC papers) and I have never paid that fee for any of our puppy owners.

I do go over the benefits of registering and help the new owers to fill out the papers when they pick the puppy up and have the owners pick a registered name according to the theme being used, whether the papers are sent in is up to the owner.

If the breeder is paying to have the microchip implanted in your puppy(about a $40 cost) I don't see why you would have a problem with registering the chip in your name so that if the dog gets lost, you will be the one notified.

I don't chip our puppies before they leave because that is the only time we have ever had them migrate-when they were done under 4 mos of age, so that is also something that is left up to the owner. I do recommend chipping and also recommend they wait until the puppy is at least 4mos old before doing so. Each breeder will have their own way of doing things and there is no right or wrong way.

I don't think what you are talking about is fraud. The $2000 is the purchase price of the puppy. If a breeder choses to include other things into the purchase price, that is their perrogative but there is nothing that says that they must include these things.


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## MGMF (May 13, 2009)

I also require my puppies to be registered with the AKC. They are to bring a $20.00 check written to the AKC and the form is completed the day of puppy pick up. If you agree to a puppy from a breeder that requires their dog to be registered where would be the problem if it is a cost you are responsible for anyway? If you don't care to register them then when the AKC registration certificate comes in the mail just discard it. I find it funny that most people who call for a puppy ask if the parents are AKC registered but then they are the first ones who disagree with registering the puppy.

I don't microchip as I find sometimes to young the chip has moved when implanted to young. This is something I have gone back and forth considering. I always recommend having the puppy microchiped when the puppy matures. 

I do not charge for the puppy to stay longer then 8 weeks. I do charge for the vet fees as needed. For example I just had a litter and the owner had a job obligation and was unable to take the puppy home until 9 1/2 weeks. I was fine with keeping her as I feel staying safe with me and going home at a time when the new owner was settled and ready. We did agree she would want to continue the puppies shots when due. I took her puppy to the vet for her 2nd round and she paid for it. 

I work with my families to help pick their puppy. I spend day and night for 8 weeks with my puppies and I get to know them. For a puppy owner to think they could walk in a couple of times and visit and think they know the personality is funny to me. They pick the sleepy one because he is calm (not), they pick the one who comes to them (silly), they pick the lightest because it is calmer (no), darkest because it is better at field work (seriously). I even just had someone ask for the first born because it is the most layed back.....aaaahhhhh. I use my heart and sole to raise my puppies so I am most definatly helping the puppy find a match as that is the way I can help them be more successful in their new homes. 

To say it is fraud that is rediculous.


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

Shalva said:


> I have to say that this tells me that you haven't dealt with alot of really reputable breeders... I find this really interesting...


I suppose I mostly haven't dealt extensive with breeders the forum would consider reputable. Why? Well, the major issue was price. I couldn't afford what they were charging. I e-mailed all the ones I could find with websites and ones with health clearances and such would not budge on price.

I might have other issues like not wanting to sign a contract, wanting to pick my own puppy, not being comfortable with home interviews, them not liking that I live in an apartment, etc. when it comes to those type of breeders, but those are all things I would have been willing to sit down and discuss and perhaps compromise on. But I couldn't get to that stage because the prices quoted were much higher than even what I could reasonably be able to borrow from people I know, let alone pay outright.

So I found a breeder that the forum would consider less reputable but who was easy to deal with and allowed me to negotiate a price I could afford. It's nothing against other breeders, health clearances and such are of course desirable for obvious reasons, but none of the ones I contacted would let me get my foot in the door (Figuratively speaking). If prices were high and non-negotiable, I can't afford it on an income near the poverty line and there's really nothing more to discuss with those sort of breeders (But I did do some e-mailing to feel them out).


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## Visitador (Aug 12, 2011)

Those sort of breeders? 

Since this thread has gone way off topic, then let me chime in. Life is all about choices. As long as you have an income, you can save for those sort of breeders. If you are near poverty, then, you should ask yourself how are you going to afford taking good care of a dog (if the $1000 annual cost thrown around here is true - I think it is more).

As it has been discussed more than once here in this forum, there are costs that "those sort of breeders" have to incur. Forget about show quality and AKC conformation etc. If you want some sort of quality control, you just have to pay more.

That is why an Iphone may cost more than some other smartphones. Besides the illusion of a desirable phone, it works. I know, given that I previously was an Android phone user. [Now, I am going to get an earful from the Google fans.]


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## MGMF (May 13, 2009)

I am a breeder that will take my dogs back anytime but as for many good breeders that this is not our intention. I work hard to get to know my pups, care and socialize them to be good dogs. We are very selective and have certain criteria to place our dogs because we want nothing but success for them to be in a loving home their whole life. Some people may offer wonderful homes but every breeder starts with "who are you?" If a puppy owner is not willing to show me they are willing to jump through hoops to love and care for my dogs then it is a "NO".


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Golden999 said:


> I suppose I mostly haven't dealt extensive with breeders the forum would consider reputable. Why? Well, the major issue was price. I couldn't afford what they were charging. I e-mailed all the ones I could find with websites and ones with health clearances and such would not budge on price.
> 
> I might have other issues like not wanting to sign a contract, wanting to pick my own puppy, not being comfortable with home interviews, them not liking that I live in an apartment, etc. when it comes to those type of breeders, but those are all things I would have been willing to sit down and discuss and perhaps compromise on. But I couldn't get to that stage because the prices quoted were much higher than even what I could reasonably be able to borrow from people I know, let alone pay outright.
> 
> So I found a breeder that the forum would consider less reputable but who was easy to deal with and allowed me to negotiate a price I could afford. It's nothing against other breeders, health clearances and such are of course desirable for obvious reasons, but none of the ones I contacted would let me get my foot in the door (Figuratively speaking). If prices were high and non-negotiable, I can't afford it on an income near the poverty line and there's really nothing more to discuss with those sort of breeders (But I did do some e-mailing to feel them out).


I actually wasn't referring to you in my comments.... 

but those types of breeders are the ones who care about their puppies... I find this thread really discouraging... and I question how you are going to afford a puppy in the case of an emergency based on this last thread. My bing got sick last week... we are already $2,000 at the emergency clinic and we aren't even done yet... I still have more blood work and a ct scan to do. Your last post concerns me because I gotta tell you the cost of your puppy is the least of your expenses and if you got a disreputable breeder you increase your odds that you are going to have trouble somewhere along the line. 

I am bowing out of this conversation at this point. I find this incredibly frustrating


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

^^^ One thing that probably people need to consider is that responsible breeding prevents a lot of the behavioral and health issues which _aren't_ common in our breed. 

With our first golden... the breeder bred a dog who very likely had kidney disease to his daughter to produce our dog. Their male dog died the year after the breeding. Our dog started failing when he was 3, he died when he was 6. That's really my worst nightmare when it comes to buying a puppy from an unknown history, or from a place where the dogs haven't been to the vet in years. 

In that case, it was a real eye-opener, because prior to that we assumed that if you buy a puppy with papers - that you are buying a puppy who will be breed standard in every single way. Even if there are 5-10 generations between that dog and the last ancestor who saw the inside of a show ring.  Our golden had his faults, but the worst blow was losing him so early and seeing clearly afterwards how long he had been sick without us knowing. 

FWIW - that's why I prefer to buy puppies from breeders who are pretty picky about what's behind the dogs they are breeding. 

@puppy prices or paying a high price... back when we bought our first golden, he was a byb originally priced at $400. Which was about what pet bred puppies were going for. My dad haggled the price down to half. I think all he had to ask was "What is so special about these puppies that they'd cost that much?" In that case, I think haggling was a pretty good idea because these dogs were kept under the front porch or in the barn. The breeder put no money into them. And my dad was haggling vs walking away, because 12 week old Charmy had curled up in my mom's arms and was holding onto her. She was not going to put him down and walk away.

Haggling a price from a breeder who has put money into their dogs... that's pretty insulting.

And fwiw... my two older sisters paid top price (at the time) for our next two goldens. Pet prices back then were $500-700. They were both part time college students with "just out of high school" jobs. They saved up and paid cash.


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

Visitador said:


> If you are near poverty, then, you should ask yourself how are you going to afford taking good care of a dog (if the $1000 annual cost thrown around here is true - I think it is more).





Shalva said:


> Your last post concerns me because I gotta tell you the cost of your puppy is the least of your expenses and if you got a disreputable breeder you increase your odds that you are going to have trouble somewhere along the line.
> 
> I am bowing out of this conversation at this point. I find this incredibly frustrating


I can agree with you on one thing- I find these sorts of discussions incredibly frustrating. I find them frustrating for what I suspect are opposite reasons, though. 

The vibe one gets on dog forums like this is that many people think having a dog requires that he be run to a vet every time he gets a minor cut or eats a sliver of something strange on a walk and vomits. They'll say you can't feed an ordinary dog food like Purina or Pedigree, that it has to be something significantly more expensive. They'll say if the dog gets cancer, you'd better have thousands of dollars to shell out for that chemo therapy that only offers a marginally better survival rate than treating it symptomatically with steroids, and, in the case of an old dog, might only extend it's lifespan a year or two at the expense of quality of life even if successful.

The last time I walked into a veternarian's office with my dog, they charged me $297 for a healthy dog. Part of that was vaccinations and heart worm medicine. But it also included, because of some allergies and a mild bacterial infection (Which they categorized as minor), a $50 antibotic (You can get an antibotic for $4 at Wal-Mart), a $30 shampoo (A shampoo!), and a $20 steroid. I was kind of floored, distracted, didn't look at the itemized bill, and having a bad health day myself and wasn't really up to fighting it, so I just paid. But I called the next day to discuss it, they refused to even discuss it with me, and as a result next year I'll be having my dog get his vaccines elsewhere.

Guess what the kicker was? Their expensive course of treatment didn't work. The steroids helped a little, but the inflammation came right back when it was done. I sacrificed to pay that bill, fell behind on other bills, and could barely feed myself for months while I struggled to catch up-- and their treatment didn't even work!

So, I then drove over to Wal-Mart, picked up a $3 or $4 thing of 100 pills of generic Benadryl, and that essentially cured the dog's allergies. He's almost completely asymptomatic and has been for a long time now.

The truth is, a lot of the stuff that people tell you have to do is something that rhymes with "full mitt" that I won't spell out on a family forum.

I know lots of people with dogs who eat Purina their whole lives, they do just fine. My parents have a dog who doesn't take heart worm pills or flea and tick medicine, only visits a vet every few years, and eats Purina, and he does fine. I have a sister who doesn't have a vet at all, but does buy the heart worm and flea and tick stuff, and uses low cost annual vaccination clinics at a local pet store, and her dog is happy and healthy. 

Now I think my parents are taking too big of a risk in not having the heart worm medicine, I wouldn't recommend anyone go without that. I wouldn't necessarily recommend anyone do exactly what my sisters does in every respect either.

But my simple point is this- you don't necessarily have to be rich to own a dog. You can feed a basic food and find a cheap veterinarian or vaccine clinic and look for deals on heart worm and flea and tick medicine, and usually things will turn out alright. The Internet is also a great resource-- for example I discovered I could treat my dog's allergies effectively with a generic cheap over the counter medicine instead of all the expensive stuff my vet sold me (that didn't even really work). What a dog really needs is time, love, attention, and exercise.

I get really frustrated with this classist nonsense that says dogs have to have the best of everything to have worthwhile lives or for their owners to be considered decent pet owners. I'm a human being, and I don't get to dine on caviar either. I eat the Wal-Mart human food most of the time, and my dog eats dog food I buy at Wal-Mart (not the Wal-Mart brand, though). I take generic medicines and go to an inexpensive family doctor and my dog takes generic medicines, and I'm looking for either an inexpensive old-timey type veterinarian or a vaccine clinic that I could supplement with vet visits when he really needs them.

You know what? My dog leads a fine life. I take him on car rides with me, I take him for walks, I play with him, I take him to hang out with other people and dogs and do interesting things. He has toys and a ball and a blanket and a kennel. We're poor, but he's got the basics that he needs. There are a lot of people in third world countries and such that don't have it nearly as nice as he does- heck, sometimes I pass homeless people in the streets right here in America that he has it better those.

So, honestly, anyone who has a problem with me or people like, well, I can't adequately express my feelings about that on a family forum. I think people should take a good hard look in the mirror, though, and think about whether they need to reevaluate how they think about these issues a little bit.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

Golden999 said:


> But my simple point is this- you don't necessarily have to be rich to own a dog. You can feed a basic food and find a cheap veterinarian or vaccine clinic and look for deals on heart worm and flea and tick medicine, and usually things will turn out alright. The Internet is also a great resource-- for example I discovered I could treat my dog's allergies effectively with a generic cheap over the counter medicine instead of all the expensive stuff my vet sold me (that didn't even really work). What a dog really needs is time, love, attention, and exercise.
> 
> I get really frustrated with this classist nonsense that says dogs have to have the best of everything to have worthwhile lives or for their owners to be considered decent pet owners. I'm a human being, and I don't get to dine on caviar either. I eat the Wal-Mart human food most of the time, and my dog eats dog food I buy at Wal-Mart (not the Wal-Mart brand, though). I take generic medicines and go to an inexpensive family doctor and my dog takes generic medicines, and I'm looking for either an inexpensive old-timey type veterinarian or a vaccine clinic that I could supplement with vet visits when he really needs them.
> 
> ...



Nobody is talking about being rich... thats ridiculous and this is not classist nonsense... give me a break.... wow the things you learn as these threads go on... 

I have a 3 year old puppy who has needed 10,000 dollars in surgery to allow him to live past age one.... that puppy now has a belly full of fluid that we have no idea where it comes from. His blood work is a mess... and he is anemic.... I am not talking about runnign to the vet for every little thing. I am talking about basic care and emergency care... last week I brought him to the vet because his belly was hard and distended... not just a little scrape... his blood work was out of whack $400 bucks for blood work and xrays.... sent us to the ER clinic with fears of liver failure.... by the time we were done with the ultrasound and work up we were not at 1800 for that visit... since then we have done two more sets of blood work (it is improving thank goodness but not alot and not fast...) we will do more blood work next week... if his belly does not go down it means he has a blood clot and we will have to do a ct scan to find the clot and then they will have to go in and break up the clot.... thats going to be another couple thousand dollars at minimum.... we have insurance but we have to do the initial outlay... and hopefully get reimbursed... we are not sure that they will because of exclusions on his policy. this is not running for a scratch this is life threatening illness... 

I have a dog now age ten with epilepsy.... an ongoing expense and the associated illnesses that go along with the epilepsy because he falls and hurts himself.... 

I have had a girl with a pyometra that almost killed her 6000 dollars later she is still alive 

why not ask how many here have had dogs that have gotten blockages... or tore a cruciate.... or for petes sake just needed an xray because they had an injury.... what about your spay or neuter.... 

if you ask anyone here they will tell you that I am never the one to run to the vet for every little thing... but you also have to be realistic about the cost of having a dog... I had dogs who lived their entire lives on blue seal feed food... honestly that I don't care what you feed.... feed what you can afford and what works... 

but when you tell me you live close to the poverty line and I know what that poverty line is... and and you are going to a breeder who has not done all their clearances... don't give me this about how dogs only need love and exercise thats just not true... dogs need care... its not about being classist... its about being realistic and responsible.


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## Visitador (Aug 12, 2011)

You are the one who brought up the view that any breeder who charges $2,000 per puppy must surely be making a huge profit. Surely, there are greedy breeders (just check those White Golden Retriever ads all over the Internet)
....but you fail to understand the main reason that there is a certain price point from most "reputable" breeders. This is about Golden Retrievers. A pure breed that, unfortunately, is known to have certain health issues. I am not an advocate of paying expensive food and vet bills, just for the sake of them. But, if I can get some assurance that, from the puppy's lineage and health clearances, the puppy I am getting has a good chance of avoiding a $5000 hip operation in a few years, then, I would rather spend the money upfront.
I wish you the best with your dog. May he or she never have any of the genetic issues that affect this breed.


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Golden999 said:


> I can agree with you on one thing- I find these sorts of discussions incredibly frustrating. I find them frustrating for what I suspect are opposite reasons, though.
> 
> The vibe one gets on dog forums like this is that many people think having a dog requires that he be run to a vet every time he gets a minor cut or eats a sliver of something strange on a walk and vomits. They'll say you can't feed an ordinary dog food like Purina or Pedigree, that it has to be something significantly more expensive. They'll say if the dog gets cancer, you'd better have thousands of dollars to shell out for that chemo therapy that only offers a marginally better survival rate than treating it symptomatically with steroids, and, in the case of an old dog, might only extend it's lifespan a year or two at the expense of quality of life even if successful.
> 
> ...



WOW!!! :uhoh:
REALLY??? 
You are kidding right?? :crossfing
You almost had me there for a second. :doh:

Seriously. As long as you are doing what you believe is in the best interest of your dog, don't worry what ANYONE else thinks.
I will continue to do the same. :wave:


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

Shalva said:


> I have a 3 year old puppy who has needed 10,000 dollars in surgery to allow him to live past age one....


What type of surgery?



> that puppy now has a belly full of fluid that we have no idea where it comes from. His blood work is a mess... and he is anemic.... I am not talking about runnign to the vet for every little thing. I am talking about basic care and emergency care... last week I brought him to the vet because his belly was hard and distended... not just a little scrape... his blood work was out of whack $400 bucks for blood work and xrays.... sent us to the ER clinic with fears of liver failure.... by the time we were done with the ultrasound and work up we were not at 1800 for that visit... since then we have done two more sets of blood work (it is improving thank goodness but not alot and not fast...) we will do more blood work next week... if his belly does not go down it means he has a blood clot and we will have to do a ct scan to find the clot and then they will have to go in and break up the clot.... thats going to be another couple thousand dollars at minimum.... we have insurance but we have to do the initial outlay... and hopefully get reimbursed... we are not sure that they will because of exclusions on his policy. this is not running for a scratch this is life threatening illness...


I'm not trying to minimize the experience, which must have been awful, but it sounds like it in some ways as it could summed up by "The vets forced us to pay a lot of money for tests and procedures that have yet to actually determine what the problem is.". Technically speaking, it sounds like at this second your dog would be in exactly the same shape he is now even if he had never seem a vet, or had seen one and you'd been unable to pay for what they recommended. It's possible at this point that the dog may live regardless of what procedures are done or not done, or may die regardless.

I'm not saying don't run the tests or don't do the procedures, I'm just saying that a dog owner who couldn't afford to do all that might end up with the same or similar outcome as one who can. It's not necessarily always, or even most cases, the determinative factor. There are also times in which alternative treatments can be tried if patients can't afford something that might also have a chance at success.

The lesson I draw most from your story is one I already learned-- veterinarians charge too much money. I'd really love to see a low-cost chain of veterinary clinics spring up as an alternative that might not include all the frills and high-tech stuff, but would be able to do basic things in a reasonable effective way at a reasonably affordable price. Vets used to be fairly inexpensive a generation ago- and that was with far fewer patients paying them regularly, since people used to take their pets into vets more rarely.



> what about your spay or neuter....


I chose not to neuter my dog. I am responsible enough to be able to prevent any unwanted breeding, and I am philosophically personally opposed to having unnecessary surgery of any kind done. If it had become necessary due to behavioral issues or other factors, though, I would have saved up and taken him to the nearest SPCA, which I believe neuters for under $100. People who choose to neuter their dogs can usually have it done at a reasonable price if they are willing to do it through the SPCA or another similar organization rather than a regular veterinarian.



> but when you tell me you live close to the poverty line and I know what that poverty line is... and and you are going to a breeder who has not done all their clearances...


If breeders who did all their clearances were willing to sell at a price I could manage, I would have looked at their puppies first.



> don't give me this about how dogs only need love and exercise thats just not true... dogs need care... its not about being classist... its about being realistic and responsible.


It is classist. The same line of reasoning you're using could be used to justify telling poor people they can't have children, or even forced sterilizations. Philosophically, it's borders closely on eugenics and even fascism, only not taken to quite the same extreme.



Visitador said:


> I wish you the best with your dog. May he or she never have any of the genetic issues that affect this breed.


Thanks.



AmbikaGR said:


> Seriously. As long as you are doing what you believe is in the best interest of your dog, don't worry what ANYONE else thinks.
> I will continue to do the same. :wave:


I think I may spend too much time on Internet message forums. The basic circle of people I know in real life have pretty much the same philosophy on dogs I have. I've often considered giving up on this forum and Internet forums in general to spare myself the headache.  I'm almost always the one with the "oddball" views who gets piled on and insulted no matter what the topic of the forum is. But I have health issues, which means I'm sitting around a lot, and forums are something to do. Maybe I need to look into alternate hobbies again.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Shalva, I have followed your experiences with your dogs with "issues". You truly stand by your dogs and support them to good health. As for Golden 999, forever it is a veterinary issue for you....and breeders who screen well would probably never sell you a dog.


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## golden_eclipse (Apr 1, 2011)

To the OP, please let us know what you hear from the breeder about the clearances behind the dam, and the litter's sire's heart clearance. For $2000 it is a reasonable expectation that corners were not cut. If the sire truly does not have a cardiologist heart clearance, please strongly consider looking elsewhere. I'm not sure if Harbor View will be having a litter, but she is in PA and is very reputable. (champions, all clearances, and super supportive). Something to think about.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Golden999 said:


> It is classist. The same line of reasoning you're using could be used to justify telling poor people they can't have children, or even forced sterilizations. Philosophically, it's borders closely on eugenics and even fascism, only not taken to quite the same extreme.


Whoa, really? You're lobbing a lot of accusations at people that are completely unnecessary. There is no legal right to owning a dog, it is a privilege, not a right. If someone cannot afford to provide basic veterinary care for a dog, they shouldn't own one. That's being responsible and realistic. Comparing it to forced sterilization....good grief.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Shalva, I'm really sorry to hear about Bing.... and he's so sweet too. Or he looks sweet in all his pictures. 



> but when you tell me you live close to the poverty line and I know what that poverty line is... and and you are going to a breeder who has not done all their clearances... don't give me this about how dogs only need love and exercise thats just not true... dogs need care... its not about being classist... its about being realistic and responsible.


Very true. 

My vet is the most expensive one in town. They are also there for us when there have been any emergencies. I remember when our Sammy's spleen ruptured at home and my sisters called the vet in a panic because they didn't know if they were going to be able to carry him out to the car. He had collapsed and was passing in and out of consciousness. The vet was on their way out the door to come to our house to either take care of him at our house or carry him out and rush him to the vet. Fortunately my brother in law arrived at the house and carried Sammy out to the car himself, so it wasn't necessary for the vet to come. But the fact that they were prepared to do so... it just reinforced our belief that you have to have a good vet that you can rely on. 

The people there at the vet were really good with my Danny. He was a shy and unsure dog, but to the last my last images of him were lying on his back with his head and shoulders in the tech's lap and sneaking licks in while the vet showed us his tumor on the ultrasound. And he walked away with them wagging his tail. And to the very last those techs stayed with him and tried to save his life. Every single vet and tech at that hospital came out to speak to my family or hug us the next day when we went in to pay the bill and get his things. That is the type of vet you want for your dog. 

Even going back to what we went through with our Charmy or when Danny was a puppy and we almost lost him. It all happened at this vet because they were the only place open all the time.

I imagine there are cheaper vets I can go to, but as long as I can afford the care or find ways to take care of bills, I would rather go with a vet I trust. I'm just saying.


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## fudgedog (Feb 13, 2011)

This thread shows you why we have dog problems in the world. If people think they are right they will never try to understand. Owning a dog is not a birth right.


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## OnMyWay2MyDreams (Feb 13, 2011)

I normally don't respond to a heated argument like this, but I have to put my opinion in.. I see both sides of the fence daily while I at work. We don't live in the richest area, but we see people from all incomes. The most frustrating are those who can't afford the pets they already have and continue to get more..not even doing the basic vet care and if their animal gets sick waiting too long. We have had numerous dogs released to us because the owner could not afford care and it was for something fixable they just couldn't afford it and we couldn't just euthanize the animal knowing it was a "easy" fix. I understand that people love dogs and want to own them.. But it is a WANT not a need. Yes the responsibility of dog ownership has become a bit more costly and refined with treatments, surgeries and such, but lots of things do..like our own care. 
At my practice it is one of the cheaper ones around, and we still give good care, but it just simply gets frustrating to hear owners come up to the desk after the appointment is done and say I have no money, can you bill me? I am far from rich and frankly I would like to get paid for my weeklong work week, and that starts to hurt us as a business. vets have bills to pay, we are not like a human hospital who gets money from insurances or state help, or donations or grants..nada. 

I say having a good vet you trust is important and you can rely on in an emergency. But you have to have money to have an animal..they rely on you..they can't help themselves.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> I say having a good vet you trust is important and you can rely on in an emergency. But you have to have money to have an animal..they rely on you..they can't help themselves.


^ X2

When I say ways of paying, I mainly meant care credit or room on my credit card or inventive budgeting in order to pay bills for my dog. You don't have to be rich in order to take care of your pets. But you should have the ability to take care of things or have a disaster plan in place that will ensure you can keep your home, keep food on the table, _and_ keep your pet.


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

This thread has taken a different direction than I was expecting. I appreciate that everyone is being civil in their discussion. 

I think it comes down to this-- we all love our dogs. No one disputes that. Everyone does what they think is in the best interest of the ones that they love. To me, I don't want my dog to just live, I want him to THRIVE.


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> There is no legal right to owning a dog, it is a privilege, not a right.


Actually, there is a legal right to own a dog. If you can figure out a way to get someone to give you one or get enough money to buy one, you can have one. I mean, if we're going to talk about legalities, then it's obviously true that no one is barred from getting a dog so long as they can figure out how to do so in a legal way (i.e. not stealing one).

In a broader ethical sense, I also think people have the right to a little companionship. To start a family if they can find a spouse, to have children, to have a dog or a cat. Obviously, with the dog, that means you do then have a responsibility to find a way to make sure the dog is fed and walked and gets outside to relieve himself, and so on. But it doesn't mean you have the responsibility to pay for a $5,000 surgery. It just doesn't.

If people are concerned that some pet owners can't afford certain expensive surgeries, the answer isn't to bar them from owning pets, the answer is to start a charity to help subsidize the costs of that type of thing for people with low incomes, or a non-profit that pays for vet care like that upfront and offers affordable payment plans so people can pay it back over time (and you'd want these payment plans not to be based on a credit check, because poor people often have bad credit).

Another way to work on the problem would be to look at how vets can reduce costs and offer lower cost solutions to some problems- I mean, like with my vet who handed me $100 worth of medications when telling me to buy a $3 or $4 bottle of generic Benadryl would have done the job. Similarly, maybe with some surgeries they do, there would be a cheaper easier to perform procedure with slightly lower odds of a positive outcome that could still potentially fix the problem that they could offer as an alternative to patients in a money crunch.

I'm not saying there aren't some valid concerns raised here, but what I am saying is that telling the poor to go blank themselves and never under any circumstances get an animal companion is going in the wrong direction. Instead, make veterinary costs cheaper, offer payments plans, start a charity to help them pay; work on it from that angle. Don't try to take away people's best friends or keep them from having one of the only things in the world that means anything to them.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I should have been more clear. There is no constitutional right to own a dog. If owning a dog is denied to someone based on their financial status there is no violation of any law. If you're reading that as "telling the poor to go blank themselves" you really need to re-assess how you're interpreting things.


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## OnMyWay2MyDreams (Feb 13, 2011)

Here in Delaware we have a statewide spay/neuter program that everyone pays into, no matter what income, because they made a surcharge fee on the rabies (3.50) to go into said program. The program is for low income/state assisted people..i cant use it but yet I put my money into it when I pay for my dogs rabies vx. I use to get mad about it, now it's just the way it is. We also participate in the program to do the surgeries and we do take a slight paycut on the procedures doing it, but to not do it would mean more animals needing homes. Again, vets are a PRIVATE buisness, we participate in this program at a loss..we also do one other program occasion and that's a even bigger hit on us. Do you go to other places for services (like auto shops, grocery stores, pharmacy) and tell them sorry I can't pay you now..no, and that's what happens to us and it starts to get to the point that we are struggling. We will offer care credit which I would do if I had an really expensive surgery or treatment on my dogs because I couldn't afford it right off the bat but needed to done.) and yes in extreme cases payment plans dr approving, it is their practice.

You saying that everyone is entitled to companionship, I'm sorry I would not have animals if I could not afford one, I would volunteer with a dog rescue or something instead to get my fill. I had my first own personal dog when I was 14, I have been working since then and have always had a emergency fund for my animals, it never got to a huge amount because it was dipped into time and again, but to me it's like having a baby all the time, they are dependent on you to make sure they are healthy and if their is a problem I will get it fixed if it is treatable. Their are certain cases where yes you may be looking at lot of money and there is no guarantee, but to have people simply say they don't have the money to treat their pup for a broken leg that is truly fixable..that is what aggravates me. They are your responsibility, you are the owner. We see it time and time again. We have many 3 legged dogs amongst my coworkers because of people not being to afford the surgery. Purchasing your pup is just the beginning and if you can't have money for the future then why get one? 

I am glad that we have come as far as we have in the things we can do for our animals, I want mine to be around as long as possible and with good medicine you have a greater chance of that, rather than just skirting through life, and then one day something happens and you have to make a choice like that because of money..I would not be able to live with the guilt..that is my opinion..


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

The self-righteousness and abuse piled on people of lesser financial means who own pets is just astounding. Some of the posts in this thread are great examples of that.

Family forum keeps me from saying what I'm really thinking, but I think people can guess.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

How dare you? Calling people self righteous and abusive, likening their views to forced sterilization and eugenics. Saying our opinions border on fascism? Being of (self described) lesser financial means doesn't give you the right to say the rude and insulting things you're saying. Officially putting you on IGNORE.


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## golden_eclipse (Apr 1, 2011)

Our vet lets us have an account with them, that we pay down completely each month. (I think its because annually we spend about $5k-10k a year, sometimes more or less). But they also give us a discount because we are loyal to them, and always have our puppy owners go there (when they live close). I think it works out in the positive for them. It also makes it easier on us, so if one of the family members is bringing in the dog, they don't have to worry about borrowing the "dog fund" check book. We just get a bill in the mail. 
But I totally agree with the sentiment about if you can't afford the costs, you really should think about priorities. I feel that way about children. To have a child should not be considered a given right, it should be a right if you are in a position to be able to completely independently care for and provide for said child. Otherwise isn't it child abuse to not completely feed and give medical care? Obviously dogs are a lot cheaper and should be more accessible. Some rescues up here give financial assistance if you choose to adopt an older dog who might need more vet care.


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## Golden999 (Jun 29, 2010)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> How dare you? Calling people self righteous and abusive, likening their views to forced sterilization and eugenics. Saying our opinions border on fascism? Being of (self described) lesser financial means doesn't give you the right to say the rude and insulting things you're saying. Officially putting you on IGNORE.


If people stop talking like jackbooted brown shirts, I'll stop comparing them to them.

Being poor doesn't mean people shouldn't be able to do basic things like have families, have pets, experience some simple luxuries. And being well off doesn't make you a good person.


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## OnMyWay2MyDreams (Feb 13, 2011)

Self righteousness? Abuse? Hardly..but I will say the arrogance on the part of some people to assume they should get help in paying for THEIR animals is just plain wrong. Pets are not a Need they are a want.. You don't need a pet to live..it may feel like that sometimes, I know I couldn't imagine it but I wouldn't also put myself into that position or my animals.. Sometimes you just have to find a way to wait until its more feasible to do it. If you have a back up plan, a family member..someone..then great but if not then you should really take a hard look. My drs at my practice are very upfront on costs..will try cheaper alternatives, and do jthings one step at a time.. But to me not being even to treat a dogs ear infection..that just is mind boggling to me! Oh and that's great Benadryl worked for your pup, but it doesn't work for all animals. Our vets will say try it but you may need something stronger.


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## golden_eclipse (Apr 1, 2011)

Golden999 said:


> If people stop talking like jackbooted brown shirts, I'll stop comparing them to them.
> 
> Being poor doesn't mean people shouldn't be able to do basic things like have families, have pets, experience some simple luxuries. And being well off doesn't make you a good person.


So you think society should provide for those who choose to live beyond their means? A communist society? I don't think people should be able to have 10 children if they want, and just have the government pay for everything they can't afford. Thats just not fair to those who work and live within their means. We live in a capitalist society, where you have basic rights (freedom of speech, right to bare arms ect.) But not the right to procreate and depend on the government so the children don't starve. I think to say you have no control over your financial position and the amount of expenses you have is ignoring the greatest part of our country. The fact that anyone who uses their mind and takes advantage of our freedoms can fulfill their desires. But that will not happen if one does not work for it. You can just wake up one day and say I want to have a kid, get pregnant without saving or anything and expect it to turn out well. If one were to want a kid, but took a few years to live cheaply and save every penny, and get themselves in a good position to have a child, then that will turn out a lot better. At that point you have taken advantage of your adult right to choose and control the outcomes of your life, personally, financially and otherwise. To say you have no control, is to give up.


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## My Big Kahuna (Dec 14, 2011)

I have been watching this entire thread and I think I will finally chime in... I am not rich. I do not know what the "poverty line" is but I can't imagine I am much higher **shrug** BUT I saved up for a long time to get Kahuna... I wanted to get a well bred golden because the first golden I ever had, Trigger (childhood golden), was the best dog I ever had but was rittled with health issues... He was from our next door neighbors litter, and we had no idea of the risks at the time... I have waited 6 years to get another golden because I did not want to get a dog while I was struggling through young adulthood (trying to be responsible and accountable for the dog) and now, at 25, I am finally in a stable situation where I believe I can responsibly care for another life... Not only did I save up for his purchase price, I saved up $2000 and put it in a savings account for emergency vet funds and will continue to feed into it as long as I have dogs... 

Of course you don't have to be rich to have a dog, but no matter what the income level you must be responsible for a LIFE... Dogs are a blessing and everyone deserves to be loved by one... BUT the dogs, in turn, deserve to be cared for their entire life... I guarantee you that you are not the only one on this forum with your views, Golden999, but I think the way both sides expressed their opinions possibly created this tension.... I don't think that you necessarily have opposing views but you have, indeed, said some very offensive things and have not been attacked in return... 

The point is: everyone on this forum LOVES goldens, and dogs in general, so really we are not different... I think maybe you have done yourself a disservice by getting offensive and antagonistic instead of explaining that regardless of your income level, your dog gets the care it needs (I'm assuming, anyways)... I think you feel "judged" because you cannot afford a $10,000 surgery should it arise, but most people can't! It is unfair for those who can to be judged for having the means to provide for their animal in that way... It does not make them elitist... It simply means they CAN and it does not mean they judge you for not being able to do so... That being said, there are ways to pay for a surgery like that (and I'm assuming you would pursue all options to afford it, as would I) but you never gave yourself a chance to be on the same side as everyone else... That side being the side that is interested in the love and care of why we're all here: GOLDENS! 

All in all, the income level should not dictate whether someone should own a dog AS LONG AS THEY CARE FOR THE DOG... I worked very hard to be responsible and put myself in a position to be held accountable by my dog... I really hope this mellows the argument out, because it was intended to bring together... Not start the argument again... I hope I spoke clearly enough to demonstrate my views......


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> Being poor doesn't mean people shouldn't be able to do basic things like have families, have pets, experience some simple luxuries. And being well off doesn't make you a good person.


Being poor does not give anyone an excuse to shirk their duties though. That's simply what people are saying. You are turning this into social-political entitlement hype. 

I came from a poor family. We are quite a bit well off now - and that's simply because we were very prudent and careful while we were poor. And being poor did not mean that we didn't take care of things that needed taking care of. And being poor did not mean we had to have everything that everyone else had. I remember a time when we did not have any TV's, because new TV's were expensive. And then after we were able to afford a new TV, we still didn't use it very much because my parents would not get cable. And of course, we only got a handful of channels clearly. Our "new" clothes came from charity bags from church. Our "new" toys and books came from garage sales or consignment stores.  

Yes, we still had 2 dogs and a cat... but because we cut out a lot of the stuff that we didn't need and didn't buy a lot of other stuff that we didn't need, we could afford to take care of those pets. No "we're too poor" excuses made. 

Oh, and there were six kids in my family. Seven at one point, actually. My parents did not have more kids than they could take care of. And I think they did a pretty awesome job, because while we were kids, never once did it occur to me how poor we were. It wasn't until I was an adult and looking back that I actually went "OMG, how did we SURVIVE the depravity".  The hilarious thing looking back is when I was thinking about getting a job, I was so excited about being able to buy at least one NEW $5 book every week with my paychecks. I had it all calculated out. Things were just so much simpler back then.


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## golden_eclipse (Apr 1, 2011)

Bottom line Prudence with money is the key. If priorities are in order and time taken to ensure you have financially set aside the money for an animal, than there is no problem. 

Its when people make selfish impulse purchases that animals are dropped at a shelter as soon as the first vet bill comes in. Thus the cost and interview process reputable breeders require.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

I agree that not able to afford 5,000 surgery should not mean you cannot own a dog to companion you through life. That brings us full circle to the idea that a golden with all health clearances who eats a quality food is much less likely to require such an expenditure in order to live with quality. 

The line between the ear infection that must be treated to be responsible and the 10,000 cancer treatment with little statistical chance of cure rests in the idea of reasonable care. Heartworm pills fall under that reasonable care expectation- it is reckless not to give them. Elbow and Hip surgery for a dog crippled by dysplasia? I am not sure. Porcupine quills? I have pulled them out by hand and I have run for the vet. 

However, there is a high probability that, at one time or another, a golden will have a 1,000 vet bill for something acute but not fatal that does require medical attention from a vet. I have never owned one who did not, at least once. Even if your golden is free, there is going to be a day when a savings for the dog's care is needed to avoid being reckless with the dog's health.


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## Angelina (Aug 11, 2011)

How did we ever survive when I was a kid? We were poor, had to get shots from the low cost clinics, got our dogs from the pounds (purebreds and mutts), yet somehow never had issues. Wow, we were really living on the edge...dog after dog after dog... (and cats and hamsters and snakes and ducks....)

This thread probably should be divided into 3 or 4 different threads and subjects or at least should die by now! Anyone remember the original question?

Anyone have their minds or opinions changed?

Didn't think so!  Yeah for moving on...


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## golden_eclipse (Apr 1, 2011)

I'm still interested in what the OP heard from the breeder. It really seemed like this particular litter had corners cut, and the OP could find something in her area a lot better (health and structurally).


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

This thread has now totally digressed...we have this discussion at work all the time.  That owning a pet requires certain responsibilities.... And on this I agree with goldenjackpuppy. I, personally, am sick of hearing how vets are a source of Golden999's aggravations. I have a client who when she got her first dog, she made an account to take care of catastrophic health care. The dog lived to be 15 or 16 years and never needed the fund. Well, her second dog who was very healthy, required major surgery that would enhance her life. Lo and behold, she already had the fund and it was a no brainer.... I have another client that we have come to believe is an animal hoarder.... Rescues keep letting her adopt pets. We see none of them for routine care.. Yesterday, she mentioned that one of our competitors gives free exams and only charges for vaccines. Same vet, however, then makes up for it with the rest of their services.... I have no patience for people with many pets that can't afford basic veterinary care. I also don't turn down my nose on people who can't afford the expensive surgeries. I am grateful for my puppy owners who have gone above and beyond for dogs that I have sold them, but I don't necessarily expect it. We have payment plans and definitely are more sympathetic to the dog that was just hit by a car and now the owner faces sudden big expenses vs wanting to charge a routine dental. What is a jackbooted brown shirt???


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

My only "free golden" is the golden I have spent the most money on. She was six months in 1990 and given to me with a luxating patella. With a veterinary discount, her surgery at Angell Memorial was $600. My husband and I were not rich by any means, but we found a way to make it work. Then when she was 7, she needed a semilunar hemi mandibulectomy(part of her mandible removed). That was done at Tufts, again, we got a discount and it was close to $1000. Then when she got her final illness(she died 4/9/02), I easily spent $1500 with CT scans and ultrasound (again witha vet discount). She has been gone just about ten years. I would do it all again...


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## OnMyWay2MyDreams (Feb 13, 2011)

Sally's Mom said:


> What is a jackbooted brown shirt???


lol was wondering the same thing!


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## Visitador (Aug 12, 2011)

Angelina said:


> Didn't think so!  Yeah for moving on...


Nope. It is just a matter of choice: Reputable breeder and the chance of getting a healthy Golden Retriever through life, or puppy mill breeder who cut costs and breed their dams till they die. You take your chances. Costs are costs and you cannot expect a reputable breeder to sell you a puppy at Costco prices.

Moving on too.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> What is a jackbooted brown shirt???


My best guess is he was calling us nazis for saying that people need to be responsible.


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## Angelina (Aug 11, 2011)

Do we really want to know???

People definately need to realize owning any animal is a financial responsibility above the number one responsibility: do you have the time, energy and inclination to give that animal love and care and a good quality of life?

If you can't afford to feed and care for yourself; how can you expect to be able to feed and care for an animal even if there are no major health issues? 

But lets not be extreme here. I could spend 10 grand keeping my dog alive for 3 or 4 more months. I would not do it. That is a personal choice. I won't judge anyone who does or doesn't do it either, that is their personal choice. 

On the same note I will rescue again and not know where that dog came from or if she has clearances. Again, that is a personal choice and I'll take the risk although from this forum I see many, many dogs with clearances have health issues. Again, this is a personal choice and I don't appreciate being judged by strangers for it.

The bottom line is we do love our dogs, no matter where they came from, and we do take the best care of them we can. I still use pet clinics for my shots and hey; I also donate money to rescues. I use a vet for anything else and understand I am paying for their expertise and education. I give my horse his own shots. I have a vet advise on his lameness.

Somethings you can save money on, some things you can't.

But the bottom line is who are any of us to judge what other's do or assume we even know what they are (or are not) doing? I think it is the 'judgements' in this thread people are having the hard time with. K


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## Angelina (Aug 11, 2011)

> Nope. It is just a matter of choice: Reputable breeder and the chance of getting a healthy Golden Retriever through life, or puppy mill breeder who cut costs and breed their dams till they die. You take your chances. Costs are costs and you cannot expect a reputable breeder to sell you a puppy at Costco prices.


This is a great example of what I was just referring to. Hey, the world really is not this black and white...
My rescues have all come from breeders...both the good and the bad...guess thats 'grey'...


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Megora said:


> My best guess is he was calling us nazis for saying that people need to be responsible.


Yep. And, honestly, people have been banned for saying less than that in threads. Golden999 was incredibly rude and insulting. For someone so concerned about judgment Golden999 is happily flinging judgment in all directions today. 



Angelina said:


> *If you can't afford to feed and care for yourself; how can you expect to be able to feed and care for an animal even if there are no major health issues? *


 Exactly.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

from the Urban Dictionary.... 
brown shirt	232 up, 86 down
The new uniform of the Republican party. Wearers of this uniform tend to also be jack boot wearing thugs.
Brown shirt Republicans are a collection of goons who cannot stand things like civil rights. These people tend to think that they are better and holier than everyone else.

2. brown shirt	87 up, 8 down
Soldiers in Hitler's storm trooper army, SA during the Nazi regime. They were called this because of the colored shirts they wore. 
To call someone a brown shirt is to call them a Nazi soldier, usually hinting that they oppose human rights or freedom. This is a very serious insult, and in forums is used to Flame someone.
Hitler used many different forces to accomplish his goals when he rose to power. One of these forces were the SA, or Storm Troopers. The SA soldiers were called Brown Shirts. 

"I don't like how that guy disagrees with my philosophy on <idea>. I'm going to call him a Brown Shirt so people associate him with Nazis, and his ideas are disregarded."
buy brown shirt mugs & shirts
nazi storm trooper flame troll hitler 

3. brown shirt	87 up, 63 down
A shirt that is brown in colour
Bob is wearing a brown shirt today.
buy brown shirt mugs & shirts

In either case considering her need to reduce the conversation to flames and insults if I could block her I would. I am highly offended by the rudeness and insinuations and name calling 
If i could block her I would....its amazing what you learn about people in a forum

Its time to close this thread which is to bad that one person had to resort to name calling because it truly was an interesting discussion... and remained a civil one until the name calling began.... 

I don't think I have ever been as offended by a member as I am at this moment


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

You can ignore, I did.


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## Shalva (Jul 16, 2008)

thanks... I didnt know how to do that... just figured it out appreciate it


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## AmbikaGR (Dec 31, 2007)

Golden999 said:


> If people stop talking like jackbooted brown shirts, I'll stop comparing them to them.



WOW!!!
Others get banned for a "ticker" and something this offensive is not dealt with ????? 
WOW!!!!


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## Visitador (Aug 12, 2011)

Angelina said:


> This is a great example of what I was just referring to. Hey, the world really is not this black and white...
> My rescues have all come from breeders...both the good and the bad...guess thats 'grey'...


I don't know from where my prior rescue Sophie came from. All I know is that her life was full of health issues that were of genetical origen. That made me suspect she originated came from a puppy mill. Unfortunately, she died early of Lymphoma Cancer. 
SO EXCUSE ME for trying to do better with my next lifetime companion. As an aside, I hope you took good care of your "bad" ones.


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## Visitador (Aug 12, 2011)

AmbikaGR said:


> WOW!!!
> Others get banned for a "ticker" and something this offensive is not dealt with ?????
> WOW!!!!


That is how things are right? Some people are more equal than others because they are the loudest.


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## Angelina (Aug 11, 2011)

Visitador, I take care of ALL of my animals no matter where they came from. I am not judging you, in fact I don't care where you get your dogs from; only that they are loved. I for one wouldn't assume anything about where your pup came from; not after reading all the stories here on GRF. Oh, but EXCUSE ME for stating my opinion...

Geez, EXCUSE ME for .... seems a bit sarcastic, doesn't it?..guess I won't copy your verbage in the future.


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## Laurie (Sep 20, 2009)

It appears the discussion on the original post has gone by the wayside with some rather rude comments being made. I hope, however, the OP was able to receive some good advice.

This thread is being closed.


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