# Aversives



## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

In psychology, aversives are unpleasant stimuli that induce changes in behavior through punishment; by applying an aversive immediately following a behavior, the likelihood of the behavior occurring in the future is reduced. That is mostly true in dog training, but a significant exception is forcing, during which a behavior is made _more_ likely to reoccur through the application of an aversive stimulus. Aversives can vary from being slightly unpleasant or irritating (such as a disliked color) to physically damaging (like a 2x4!). It is not the level of unpleasantness, but rather the effectiveness the unpleasant event has on changing behavior that defines the aversive. Aversive tools apply ‘unpleasant stimuli’.

The above description includes the word ‘punishment’. But that isn't specifically accurate in all dog training applications. I’m not going to launch into an Operant Conditioning discussion (yet). But what we’re really talking about here are aversive tools. Ear pinch, heeling sticks, e-collars, et al. They may punish, correct, or merely compel. But they do so by being used as implements that apply unpleasant stimuli (pressure/force).

I thought this might be a worthy discussion, what with hunting season coming up and all! I don't know about you, but I'm sharpening my dog up for hunting! 

EvanG


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

Aversives are part of the total picture of training and learning. They work.

When I helped my hunting partner force fetch his Braque Francais, all I had to do was get his ear flap between my thumb and collar. Almost no pressure at all. That was enough to start him howling. Honestly no more pressure than holding a pencil. That was enough to get the job done. This pressure wouldn't even be felt by my dogs. But it is still an aversive.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

After the debacle of ignoring the sit whistle SEVERAL times at the spaniel test last weekend we are revisiting aversives....


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

gdgli said:


> Aversives are part of the total picture of training and learning. They work.
> 
> When I helped my hunting partner force fetch his Braque Francais, all I had to do was get his ear flap between my thumb and collar. Almost no pressure at all. That was enough to start him howling. Honestly no more pressure than holding a pencil. That was enough to get the job done. This pressure wouldn't even be felt by my dogs. But it is still an aversive.


Exactly, and that is because of its effectiveness. Although, during FF it is not necessary for a dog to vocalize. In fact most of mine _don't._

EvanG


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## goldlover68 (Jun 17, 2013)

Evan, As I understand your post, 'Aversives' are used in both direct pressure and indirect pressure situations....correct?


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

goldlover68 said:


> Evan, As I understand your post, 'Aversives' are used in both direct pressure and indirect pressure situations....correct?


Yes. Probably as many incorrect ideas exist about aversives as correct ones, but you're correct; aversives are used both ways.

EvanG


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

What's to discuss? 
Discussing the four quadrants of operant conditioning is an aversive to me.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Amen Anney.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

K9-Design said:


> What's to discuss?
> Discussing the four quadrants of operant conditioning is an aversive to me.


How so? By definition aversives deliver unpleasant stimuli. What is the equivocation between a heeling stick and the four OC quadrants? 

EvanG


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

K9-Design said:


> What's to discuss?
> Discussing the four quadrants of operant conditioning is an aversive to me.


Do you mean discussing learning theory is punishment? That's funny!

I think that you have a dry sense of humor, much like my own.


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Just in case any who are just reading along are getting lost, here are the names of some common aversives used in dog training.

Leash & choker or prong collar
Heeling stick (or riding crop, although one is not the same as the other)
Rope/check cord
E-collar

What makes these tools aversive? They each deliver an unpleasant stimulus, each in a different way, and that stimulus is directed toward a behavior change. Neither the amount, nor the kind of stimulus are what make them aversive. It is that the stimulus they deliver is perceived by the dog as unpleasant, and results in a behavior change. That's it. Don't drown yourself in OC terms. :lol: 

EvanG


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Sorry I'm not familiar with using a heeling stick or check cord. How are they used?


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Alaska7133 said:


> Sorry I'm not familiar with using a heeling stick or check cord. How are they used?


Thank you for asking. This is the kind of question many people have, but are reluctant to ask. It's a good discussion for all of us.










NOTE: This is a heeling stick. It is not the same thing as a riding crop. Heeling sticks are much more effective, versatile, and adapt better to far more dog/handler teams.










These are check cords. There are many sizes, colors, and materials. They offer low pressure, sure control of your dog while you build skills like "Here" and remote 'sit'.





 




EvanG


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

gdgli said:


> Do you mean discussing learning theory is punishment? That's funny!
> 
> I think that you have a dry sense of humor, much like my own.


Yes I prefer the PRACTICAL APPLICATION of training not the "THEORY".....
Because IN THEORY lots of stuff works great....
Quadrants make my eyes glaze over.....


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

And Anney can tell you more about the dangers of a check cord :uhoh:


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Not a fan of check cords! LOLOL understatement of the year


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Is a check cord and a long line the same thing? If it is, just curious why you aren't a fan of them?


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

Alaska7133 said:


> Is a check cord and a long line the same thing? If it is, just curious why you aren't a fan of them?


Generally they are the same, although many check cords are comparatively short. I use a training rope for several applications. I have one 25 feet long, and another that is 75 feet.

I'm a big fan of them, and have used them for several decades. Both of the Hall of Fame pros I spent significant time with used them, as have many other pros I've known over the years. I would love to hear concerns about them.

EvanG


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

I also like to use them. My only problem is the dog tangling up in them on the way back from a retrieve.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

My big concern is when that check cord wraps around your ankle and your dog takes off after a bumper at MACH 10. The resultant 3rd degree rope burn leaves a permanent, 1" x 6" scar around your left ankle that takes 4 months to heal. You also discover you are allergic to sulfa antibiotics during this episode. Every check cord should come with KNEE-HIGH BOOTS.


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

K9-Design said:


> ... Every check cord should come with KNEE-HIGH BOOTS.


OK, and now I can go to bed, I've learned something new. Right after I put "purchase those darn boots" on my to-do list.....


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## MillionsofPeaches (Oct 30, 2012)

and a pair of gloves


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

K9-Design said:


> Every check cord should come with KNEE-HIGH BOOTS.


And a quality video of a horse trainer using a rope. Horse trainers become masterful with ropes out of necessity. You can learn a lot from watching a good horse trainer, which is one of the ways I learned that with ropes "less is more".

Most people who are new to training with ropes or check cords cause most of their own problems by gathering them up in little coils and tangles, when a slight flip clears them out from around you and your dog to flow smoothly.

Kind of like the e-collar; it's not the tool that causes problems, so much as it is the user. Practice, practice, practice.

EvanG


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

I'm a believer in long lines. I keep several different lengths in my car. Lots of different uses. I prefer the cotton 3/4" wide strap type, they don't seem to burn your hand as much. I am always sad when I find I've been standing on the line when a pup goes flying after something and hits the end only to be yanked back. I don't know how else I would have taught Lucy to come back with the bird and not go off and eat it!


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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

MillionsofPeaches said:


> and a pair of gloves



...leather gloves...


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## EvanG (Apr 26, 2008)

gdgli said:


> ...leather gloves...


:thanks:

You bet! Makes a big difference!

EvanG


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