# Heeling Suggestions



## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

This is probably something that could become troublesome in other areas as well. Get that food off of you, or in your pocket until you are ready to reinforce. -Then- pull it out. Food is part of the cue/motivation for working right now and we need to convince her otherwise! 

Review exercises she does well with this format. "Name!", then reach and pull out food. Repeat a lot of times. "Sit!" then reach and get food. Repeat a lot of times. When you get back to Heel, only go a step or two, then pull out food. 

Also set up a few sessions where you have the food setting nearby. Go through name/sit/down/whatever, then run and get the food. Go back out and work...then go get the food. I don't do much of this as it's not as precise -especially- if you aren't using a clicker, but it's also more work than just building strong chains to begin with. 

Don't worry about fading out the food until she can still perform correctly for reinforcement.... and...depending on how you're using food... If I were to only reinforce some responses...my dog would think any -not reinforced- response is wrong. I am always reinforcing a correct response (food, toy, or another cue). Incorrect responses (due to a poor choice, wrong response, or just not meeting my criteria) are not reinforced. 

You can play with all of this at home without a leash. Feeding with your left hand is helpful for heeling, but I do have it in my left and am ----super----- SUPER super careful that when I feed with my right hand (usually from a treat pouch behind my back) I am feeding RIGHT where my dog's head should be, NOT in front of me. There is ONLY one spot where I release food in heel. [[[[[yes...there's exceptions..but for simplicity, let's pretend there aren't!]]].


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

I would first try reducing the food in low distraction areas. 

2 thoughts depending on where you like her to focus.

On your face - move the food to your mouth, bring it up so she can see it at first. Have several treats in your mouth. When you treat bring you hand to your mouth, pull out the treat (I like chicken or steak strips) reward and point back up to your mouth as the next treat becomes visible. You lengthen the time between rewards and slowly fade the food as she progresses.

On your shoulder or elbow. Basically the same as above but you would first use a chopstick (slowly shortening) attached to your number band. Eventually your treats come from the number band itself.

Good luck and I am looking forward to seeing other replies


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Oh, I forgot to add that I really dislike leashes while training - I have small hands and 6 footers just don't fold small enough so I generally train heeling on a 2 footer or even 18 incher. That way food and leash are comfortable in my left hand and my right hand is free to whip out a toy from behind me etc.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

If she breaks attention, do something physical to get her attention back on you (tap her with your foot, push her, collar pop, whatever) and praise when she looks back at you.

Work more on _you_ being her reward instead of the food all the time. Release her to a session of the two of you rolling around on the ground together, your arms stroking her strongly.

I want my on leash heeling to look as similar to my off leash heeling as possible. I heel with my left arm at my waist, so I hold my leash there too. I'm still at that transition stage too of holding the food (as I posted about with my chopstick in the mouth), so it's not being held there yet, but the finished product will be.

Remember it's about quality, not quantity. If you are in an area of high distraction, start by getting one or two really nice heeling steps.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Two quick thoughts. She is ready for a negative consequence for looking away. Have you TAUGHT her that leash pop = look at me and eat food? Puts a positive spin on leash pop and teaches them what to do when they get one. 
Do you use a pinch collar or regular buckle collar?
Does she see the food at all times? How does she know it's there or not if she can't see it? 
Last -- I hold the leash in my right hand too WHILE TRAINING. In the ring I hold it in left hand. Doesn't make a difference. Don't worry about it.


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## BayBeams (Jan 3, 2010)

Another technique that some people use is to have the food inside a little pouch of the armband and treat from there. Usually they start with a little stick that juts out from the armband as the focus area. Eventually the food is placed inside the armband so it is out of sight.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

K9-Design said:


> Two quick thoughts. She is ready for a negative consequence for looking away. Have you TAUGHT her that leash pop = look at me and eat food? Puts a positive spin on leash pop and teaches them what to do when they get one.
> Do you use a pinch collar or regular buckle collar?
> Does she see the food at all times? How does she know it's there or not if she can't see it?
> Last -- I hold the leash in my right hand too WHILE TRAINING. In the ring I hold it in left hand. Doesn't make a difference. Don't worry about it.


She is on a pinch and I could probably reinforce the idea of pop-look a little more. She is not seeing food at all times, right now I am hiding it in my left arm with it pressed against my side so it is not visible, but usually I let her see me pull it out of my pocket and put it in my hand. I figure when I really want to phase the food out, I can use this to pretend that I am grabbing a treat and then she can learn that the treat can come from somewhere other than that hand. In more distracting environments I let her see me holding the treat, or if she gets sidetracked.

She is doing sooo awesome in obedience class, and I would love to get away from the food. I am afraid though, that if I am not careful she will loose that up and spark that so many of the other older dogs lack. 

While I love the idea of treat in the armband, it aint gonna work for us because I am training her for conformation as well (and which some obedience is rubbing off--in a bad way with the attention on me).


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I really don't think tricking her into thinking you always have food is the way to go. If food is her only motivator to perform then I can tell that spark will eventually disappear once you start showing. Like I mentioned earlier, put more of yourself into the training. A short training session should leave you exhausted.

Do you get Front and Finish? If so, read all of Linda Koutsky's articles.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Loisiana said:


> I really don't think tricking her into thinking you always have food is the way to go. If food is her only motivator to perform then I can tell that spark will eventually disappear once you start showing. Like I mentioned earlier, put more of yourself into the training. A short training session should leave you exhausted.
> 
> Do you get Front and Finish? If so, read all of Linda Koutsky's articles.


Thank you. I will work on making myself more fun. Do you think toys is good or should it all just be myself? Sometimes when she is off-leash running around I have her heel for like 15 seconds in order to get a stick throw. Sometimes I reward her with tugging on her leash or a toy too.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Toys, food, they're all great to use, as long as they aren't the basis for your dog performing. Remember, all you get to bring in the ring is yourself. And you can use yourself and your relationship with your dog as a reward between exercises in the ring. As soon as the judge says "exercise finished," I am doing something to connect with my dog and make his tail wag every time.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Also, when you do use food and toys, don't let her know ahead of time that you have them. They should come as a surprise. If you want to use a stick as a reward for heeling, then put it behind your back in your waistband when she isn't looking, and then whip it out when you're ready to reward her. Same with the food - have it hidden on yourself before you start working, then pull it out when you're ready to give it to her. Leave her guessing as to what your going to do this time to reward her - it might be a tasty treat, it might be a fun game of tug, or it might be mom telling me how wonderful I am and giving me a butt scratch!

Just remember, the point is to reward her, not bribe her!


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## Rastadog (Oct 24, 2006)

*Really good suggestions Good thread*

Sunrise , food in mouth , using a short leash to train.

Lousiana, Handler becoming the prime motivator , release =having fun

Reddogs, Treating only in correct heel position

K-9 Design, Turning the collar pop into a motivational pop. Yes it does work

All these suggestions are very good points. I would add being patient, starting with good attention in stationary heel position . Start with just one or two steps. If your succsessful, praise and treat. After you have good attention with no distractions , add distractions and be happy if you get just one or two steps in the begining. Learn to be interesting to your dog. Do the unexpected, training your partner in the ring to want to look at you with anticipation because something fun will happen. Good luck


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Sunrise said:


> 6 footers just don't fold small enough so I generally train heeling on a 2 footer or even 18 incher.


I HATE six foot leashes for heeling. Wish you didn't have to use them for pre-novice and rally excellent. Too much pointless leash to bunch up in my small hands.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

I'll address the obed. vs. show training thing. Don't use this as a cop out for uncreative training.
In the conformation show ring, before gaiting, you tell your dog to "heel," "get in," "up here," etc, and have her sit smartly at your left side. You say "Watch" and get her attention while placing your left hand at your waste. You start your first step looking your dog right in the eye, with your left foot, at a moderate to quick walking pace -- right?
NO!!!!
You don't do any of those things that scream THIS IS OBEDIENCE when you are in the show ring! Just like you don't do any of your show things when you obedience train! If you are having trouble with the dog differentiating show vs. obedience it is because of inconsistencies on your part.
I know you sited this as a reason for no food in armband but I think that is a symptom not a cause. 
I think you are at a point in your heeling when the dog needs to make the leap of faith from being lured to doing it on her own. The source of treats then goes from right in front of her face to invisible. Invisible may be hidden in your hand (not making a show of you having it), in your pocket, in the armband, on a chair five feet away. She needs to learn the skill that treats can come from elsewhere other than in front of her face. She also needs to learn a correction for not paying attention and how to fix it. All of these things need to come in concert so she understands the game. Do not throw both factors (food & correction) changing on her at once. Personally I would start with the correction WITH food present under increasingly higher distractions, and when she has that, go back to low distraction area without food visible, now you have the correction behavior built in.
Another point is -- do you give her food WHILE heeling? Or do you only give food when you break in heeling, whether that's a complete halt or just a freebee stop (as in, heel heel heel OKAY free!)? Only giving food when she is done heeling is a nice bridge to not having to heel only if food is visible. She will understand it's not available at all times, but it's coming.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I agree with Anney, it's fairly easy to teach them to differentiate. Conner is required to always look at me when doing obedience heeling, but I easily taught him to heel without looking at me for field work. His obedience heel is called "heel" while his field heel is called "walk." I've never had him confuse the two.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Thanks, a lot of food for thought. I need it.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

IMO, you need to get it out of your hand. I personally love the attention armband technique. I'd transition to the armband w/ the food stick and then move to food in the armband that she can't see. The armband becomes the focal point for the dog.


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

What is the advantage to having a dog focusing on a "point where food appears" compared to focusing on-wherever-you-decide as a way to access the food/toys/whatevers? 

I didn't realize the food-focal-point was so popular and so extensively utilized.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

RedDogs said:


> What is the advantage to having a dog focusing on a "point where food appears" compared to focusing on-wherever-you-decide as a way to access the food/toys/whatevers?
> 
> I didn't realize the food-focal-point was so popular and so extensively utilized.


I use food to teach a focal point in the beginning. I find it easier to get across to the dog where exactly it is that I want them to look if there's something there they want to look at already. Once they understand that's where they are supposed to look at, it doesn't have to stay there for me. If I plan on treating an experienced dog while heeling, I'll carry the food in my left hand, which is at my waist. At this point they should be looking at their focus spot not because they expect food to come from there, but because that is just where they know they are supposed to look during heeling. As Connie Cleveland says, it has become their habit to look there.

I know there are others that don't go by that theory, they always keep food coming from the point they want the dog looking, but I don't find it necessary.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I keep my leash in the right hand during training so I can use the left for targeting and rewarding.

One other thought on food. I'm a little old fashioned in some ways, so I really, really try not to use the food itself for luring. You want your dog looking at your face or your hand or whatever you like that isn't the food itself, and you want to use the treat as a supplement for the dog's natural desire to work with you, rather than as the motivation itself.

It's a fine distinction for us, but a huge one for a dog. You want to teach your dog to work for you, not for food, and you do it by sporadically and generously reward her with praise, food, jumping around, toys, tugs, and whatever else might motivate her. 

So for your particular situation, I'd try one of two things. I'd try hiding a small treat in a closed fist and I work, and make her bump it with her nose several times before releasing it. Or, even better, teach her that if she touches her nose to your open left hand, a treat or other reward comes out of nowhere.

Distraction work is not about pitting a reward against a distraction. It's about building a habit and repeating it until it becomes stronger than a distraction. Again, a fine distinction, but it's huge in a dog's mind.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

RedDogs said:


> What is the advantage to having a dog focusing on a "point where food appears" compared to focusing on-wherever-you-decide as a way to access the food/toys/whatevers?
> 
> I didn't realize the food-focal-point was so popular and so extensively utilized.


I'm with you. I've always thought it made more sense to teach a dog that figuring out what you want is what leads to food, not figuring out where the food itself is. But since some pretty accomplished people are advocating that first approach, I'm curious as to what they have to say.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

FlyingQuizini said:


> IMO, you need to get it out of your hand. I personally love the attention armband technique. I'd transition to the armband w/ the food stick and then move to food in the armband that she can't see. The armband becomes the focal point for the dog.


What is the benefit of the focal point being the armband versus the hand? I loved this method when I first read about you using it, but I was afraid to do it because she is also a conformation dog and you wear an armband in the ring too. I guess now maybe I shouldn't be so worried and could try it.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Interesting comments from all around.
I'm totally opposed to using food as a lure for performance after a dog has learned the very basics of a skill. A reward, fine. A lure, no. If she *thinks* the food is there, it's still a lure. For exactly the reasons you are now giving, and it will carry over into more than just heeling.
There's no reason for a breed/obedience dog to get confused. Like Annie says, the whole picture is different. Really really. They're very smart, give them credit for how smart they really are. When I want Tito to gait in breed, I say "let's go". Sounds nothing like "heel". He gets the difference.
An AWESOME trainer here had us go two whole weeks with no food and no toys for training. Just you. You have to really, really work at it, it's amazing how hard it is when you've learned to rely on food and or toys. Give it a try, it will give you a whole new set of skills to use in obedience training, ones that you can take in the ring with you any time, any where!


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> Interesting comments from all around.
> I'm totally opposed to using food as a lure for performance after a dog has learned the very basics of a skill. A reward, fine. A lure, no. If she *thinks* the food is there, it's still a lure. For exactly the reasons you are now giving, and it will carry over into more than just heeling.
> There's no reason for a breed/obedience dog to get confused. Like Annie says, the whole picture is different. Really really. They're very smart, give them credit for how smart they really are. When I want Tito to gait in breed, I say "let's go". Sounds nothing like "heel". He gets the difference.
> An AWESOME trainer here had us go two whole weeks with no food and no toys for training. Just you. You have to really, really work at it, it's amazing how hard it is when you've learned to rely on food and or toys. Give it a try, it will give you a whole new set of skills to use in obedience training, ones that you can take in the ring with you any time, any where!


I'm such a HUGE fan of this approach. I'll use food to lure a dog through a motion as he's learning it for the very first time, but as soon as I possibly can, I move to luring with my hand and producing the treat out of nowhere. It's a pretty simple thing to teach a dog to target your palm.


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> Interesting comments from all around.
> I'm totally opposed to using food as a lure for performance after a dog has learned the very basics of a skill. A reward, fine. A lure, no. If she *thinks* the food is there, it's still a lure. For exactly the reasons you are now giving, and it will carry over into more than just heeling.
> There's no reason for a breed/obedience dog to get confused. Like Annie says, the whole picture is different. Really really. They're very smart, give them credit for how smart they really are. When I want Tito to gait in breed, I say "let's go". Sounds nothing like "heel". He gets the difference.
> An AWESOME trainer here had us go two whole weeks with no food and no toys for training. Just you. You have to really, really work at it, it's amazing how hard it is when you've learned to rely on food and or toys. Give it a try, it will give you a whole new set of skills to use in obedience training, ones that you can take in the ring with you any time, any where!


I am loving this thread  My current instructor (and I have been fighting this) insists on food for a very long time and I confess I have starting just plain training without the food at times.

This past weekend (Sunday) I had a silent training session with all 3; not totally silent but silent other than cues and major big deal rewards (mostly without food just me) between exercises. This followed a rather fun rally session on Saturday again using minimal treats but a lot of voice.

In agility the instructors fairly routinely make me run without a voice - just me and being interesting. You learn a LOT when toys and treats are limited and for agility when even you voice is .. it is fun and very informative. Our dogs will work for a smile, laugh or butt sritch


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Sunrise said:


> I am loving this thread  My current instructor (and I have been fighting this) insists on food for a very long time and I confess I have starting just plain training without the food at times.


Yup. Mine told me about a month ago that Scout was still a baby (at 10 months) and so I needed to be rewarding her 95% of the time. I didn't really agree with it, but I did start rewarding her more.

I do not use lure for anything else, and she does not need food for anything else. It is just this darn heeling. I would have to say teaching heeling is probably my least favorite, and it is unnatural for the dog.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

GoldenSail said:


> I would have to say teaching heeling is probably my least favorite, and it is unnatural for the dog.


Oh wow, I LOVE heeling. It is definitely my favorite thing (scent articles would probably be next). To be a really great heeling dog, the dog has to be in tune with every subtle movement the handler makes. To me there is no greater connection between dog and person than when they are doing spectacular heeling.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I'm surprised to hear an instructor say that about a dog that's 10 months old! 
Just differences in how things are done in different areas I guess.
But the real distinction is between "lure" and "reward", I think. 




GoldenSail said:


> Yup. Mine told me about a month ago that Scout was still a baby (at 10 months) and so I needed to be rewarding her 95% of the time. I didn't really agree with it, but I did start rewarding her more.
> 
> I do not use lure for anything else, and she does not need food for anything else. It is just this darn heeling. I would have to say teaching heeling is probably my least favorite, and it is unnatural for the dog.


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## RedDogs (Jan 30, 2010)

Hah..Heeling is one of my favorites. Duration (...heeling or stays or a dumbbell hold) are NOT. Duration is no fun!

There is a huge difference between reinforcement and heeling. Your girl sounds like she's not proficient at heeling yet... meaning the behavior is still in the training process...meaning frequent reinforcement (...and adjusting your criteria accordingly) is super important. But getting rid of any and all lures should happen .... months and months ago.

And I'll say it again...If there is no distinction between responses not reinforced due to "fading out the food" and responses not reinforced due to errors...you may be asking for trouble.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> But the real distinction is between "lure" and "reward", I think.


Also what your definition of reward is. I don't think a dog has to be given treats 95% of the time, but some kind of reward, sure. For some dogs just a smile from their handler can be a reward.Going back to the question of teaching an attention spot using food, Terri Arnold says in her first book in the attention part, that she believes that dogs taught attention without the piece of food to look at will learn to look in the direction that you want them to, but it is just a generalized look in that direction. Versus teaching them to focus on a piece of food teaches them to really focus on an exact point. Once the dog understands to focus on that point the visual food is gone.Celeste Meade does use food as a visual marker for the life of the dog. She's the only one I know of that promotes that, but it certainly does seem to work for her and her students.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Absolutely agree, I was thinking in terms of food. There's no reason to EVER phase out "good boy" or a big smile when they've done well!




Loisiana said:


> Also what your definition of reward is. I don't think a dog has to be given treats 95% of the time, but some kind of reward, sure. For some dogs just a smile from their handler can be a reward.QUOTE]


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Hi --
I trained Fisher to heel differently than I am doing with Slater. With Fisher I used food lure in left hand for a short period at the beginning, then quickly transitioned to holding hidden food in my left hand at my waist. From then on out, food was at my waist, (and right now I'm totally blanking if it is waist or waste -- yikes, braindead!), and even now when heeling with Fisher, I hold food in my left hand, hidden. It really worked for him, he's a nice heeling dog and maintains attention very well.
Before starting with Slater I went to a Celeste Meade seminar, followed up by Janice Gunn in January. Both teach heeling with VERY VISIBLE food lure. Both use the stick and graduate it up and away, I can't remember what Celeste ended up at but Janice ends up with food coming from the armband.
This whole food visible lure business blew my mind at first. I couldn't figure that out -- what happens when you take the food away?
Celeste explained that if you are going to PROOF with something you have to OFFER the SAME or BETTER as your MOTIVATOR. If you are going to proof with food (and she did - throwing food all over while heeling, food on the ground, etc) how can you ask the dog to ignore it if you can't offer better. By having the food lure very visible you are telling the dog I HAVE IT RIGHT HERE. If he can't keep focus on food right in his face, how is he going to ignore distractions when the food isn't there at all. This made a lot of sense for me.
Janice Gunn used the same method but she didn't offer up as much theory on why it worked. However she was a lot more practical about actual using it to train. Basically she said, it takes a LONG time to wean off the visible food, you have to ask for perfection in very distracting environments before moving on. She said it takes a lot of time -- YOU JUST HAVE TO WORK IT. 
My puppy is exactly 10 months old and he is still on visible food. I have no plans of pushing him forward until he's got it down forward and backwards. What's the hurry? He is heeling EXACTLY like I want but with visible food on my part. That is good. He IS just a baby.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

RedDogs said:


> This is probably something that could become troublesome in other areas as well. Get that food off of you, or in your pocket until you are ready to reinforce. -Then- pull it out. Food is part of the cue/motivation for working right now and we need to convince her otherwise!
> 
> Review exercises she does well with this format. "Name!", then reach and pull out food. Repeat a lot of times. "Sit!" then reach and get food. Repeat a lot of times. When you get back to Heel, only go a step or two, then pull out food.
> 
> ...



I think this is an exceptional response- very thoughtful and very right on target( not target puns intended). The capacity of the dog to backchain & gradually expect to perform for an extended period before being rewarded is immense. Once your dog can do something 9 time out of any 10 times you ask, you can get her to do more before receiving a click/ treat/ reward. 

For example, I used to reward Tally for downs,and now I expect downs but reward for down-on-recall or running down in Rally O. I used to reward him for e very few steps of attention heeling, but now reward him for an especially nice effort during a figure eight or rally pivot left. I did food-reward Tally as a pup for heeling( always right at the seam of my jeans) , now he has all of Open Obedience backchained to the treat- time. It's somewhat amusing bc he does truly expect a treat when he leaves the ring, but he is very alert and performs with intense focus treat-free throughout all the ring exercises.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

It comes down to there's no "one way" to teach heeling. You've got to find a method that works for you, that gives you results you like, and can hold up in the ring with repeated showing.I'm quite happy overall with the way my dogs' heeling has held up in the ring. Conner's normal heeling score is 1/2 off, although he does have many runs with none off. My Lhasa Apso's heeling scores always range from 0-1 point off, except when he's decided that he's not going to sit on that particular day (one day he did not lose anything for being out of position, but we lost twenty points for no sits - such stubborn little dogs!). Both dogs have happy, animated heeling. I do have a few things I am working on changing with Flip that aren't really scorable, just a style preference, like the way we do left turns.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

GoldenSail said:


> What is the benefit of the focal point being the armband versus the hand? I loved this method when I first read about you using it, but I was afraid to do it because she is also a conformation dog and you wear an armband in the ring too. I guess now maybe I shouldn't be so worried and could try it.


I honestly don't think you have to worry about the armband being a problem in conformation, and if it is, I'd say the real problem is the dog not fully understand her job (look ahead and move out vs. look up at your) in THAT particular ring/set up. Everyone I know locally who does both obed and conformation seem to do okay with it, so I really do think it can be done. The conformation move out should be a different cue than the obed attention heeling, and if the dog really understands the difference between the two, there's no problem.

I personally don't like the idea that I'm faking out the dog by sometimes having it in my hand and sometimes not. And I dunno... maybe it's the same with the armband b/c the dog always thinks there *could* be food in there even when there isn't... but I DO think it's easier for me to put on my armband and load it with hidden food w/o my dog seeing than to try and get one in my hand in a training set up w/o him seeing.

With Quiz in particular, if I have food in my left hand (which I carry against the front of my body while heeling) he tends to forge/wrap. I also have that problem if I reward from my mouth (spit food) during heeling. For him, keeping the reward source on my left arm has been the best way to prevent forging/wrapping, since the greedy little monkey has no reason (food) to wrap around to be closer to the hand that might have food or my face that might spit food.

Just my experience.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

K9-Design said:


> Before starting with Slater I went to a Celeste Meade seminar, followed up by Janice Gunn in January. Both teach heeling with VERY VISIBLE food lure. Both use the stick and graduate it up and away, I can't remember what Celeste ended up at but Janice ends up with food coming from the armband.
> This whole food visible lure business blew my mind at first. I couldn't figure that out -- what happens when you take the food away?
> 
> [edit]
> ...


Yup. That's been my experience. Having the visible food target out is creating a HABIT of keeping the head up. It does take a long time, but if you're patient and don't rush it, I think it works very well. 

I especially think the armband stick is a great transition from food in your hand.


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

FlyingQuizini said:


> Yup. That's been my experience. Having the visible food target out is creating a HABIT of keeping the head up. It does take a long time, but if you're patient and don't rush it, I think it works very well.


Yup. (again )
Someone asked Janice Gunn at her seminar, how long does it take to teach a dog to heel? She said 18 months. This is for perfect consistent heeling. I believe it.
You just have to do what works for you and for the dog. I started out teaching Slater just like I did with Fisher -- and I got a lot of bumping, crowding, and looking away. He is more distractable and smaller -- those put together meant food in my left hand at my waist wasn't working, whereas with Fisher it worked great from day one!


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Ok, I really like the armband idea so I think we will graduate to it. I want to create that habit of looking up. Do you think it is necessary to use the stick, or could I just start putting it on my arm? Is it better to have a special armband or can I just use a rubber band to hold the food there?


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

GoldenSail said:


> Ok, I really like the armband idea so I think we will graduate to it. I want to create that habit of looking up. Do you think it is necessary to use the stick, or could I just start putting it on my arm? Is it better to have a special armband or can I just use a rubber band to hold the food there?


IMO, you need the stick, first a long one (about 5 in) so that the food is really visible up there. Then you go to a short stick (1 in) and then the food is tucked into the armband itself and not visible. Going from food at waist level to all the way up on your armband is probably too much of a leap for most dogs.

You may need to go through a phase of food on a chopstick. When I do that, I hold the chopstick in my right hand, wayyyyy across my body so that it's positioned in a way the keeps the dog in proper position. You'll need to work on self control and leave-its b/c they all want to try and steal off the stick! It's a phase... she'll get through it.... but expect it to happen! I'd hold the stick at about your left elbow height-wise. At least when it's in your right hand, you can snatch it away if the tries to steal and/or use the leash in your left hand to help prevent the steal.

Once that's solid, move to the 5" stick on the armband.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-85w2-fsKgFor a baby dog, variations on Choose to Heel are valuable. For example, playing off leash with a target hand for a more advanced pup. . . I still warm up Tally before Obedience with some Choose To Heel, but only rewarding precision. We compete all the time against Celeste Meade's students, and it is interesting how they train articles with the Flexi Leash. I went to observe a class to see if it was a good fit. I am curious about how far Tally can go without positive punishment, so we are working with Leslie Nelson rather than Celeste. We'll see how UD goes. . .


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

Tito won't work on a flexi leash, I wouldn't have dared to use it on articles. He gets all freaked out by the fact that he has a flexi on, even though the only thing I use it for is to play fetch outside at hotels during dog shows. Weird. I guess since I didn't start him out that way, he doesn't like the different feeling of having it on.


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## gabbys mom (Apr 23, 2008)

hotel4dogs said:


> Tito won't work on a flexi leash, I wouldn't have dared to use it on articles. He gets all freaked out by the fact that he has a flexi on, even though the only thing I use it for is to play fetch outside at hotels during dog shows. Weird. I guess since I didn't start him out that way, he doesn't like the different feeling of having it on.


That's really interesting. Do you ever walk him on one? Ozzie and I will do "fun" walks (walks where he can sniff and wander, usually ones where for some reason I can't let him off leash, but still want him on more than a 6 foot) and he associates the flexi with really fun stuff now.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

hotel4dogs said:


> Tito won't work on a flexi leash, I wouldn't have dared to use it on articles. He gets all freaked out by the fact that he has a flexi on, even though the only thing I use it for is to play fetch outside at hotels during dog shows. Weird. I guess since I didn't start him out that way, he doesn't like the different feeling of having it on.


Conner has that same reaction, so I actually used that to my advantage for using a flexi for articles. I used the stress of having a flexi to replicate the stress of being in the ring. When he had the flexi on he would freeze up, saying "this is too much pressure, I can't move another step." So I could go in and show him that he still had to work, even if it was stressful. And what I find amazing is that after he was shown that he really could do the work with the flexi on, he would actually run out to the pile the next time, flexi still on, tail waving madly. He was proud of himself for being able to do it on his own.


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

Thanks for all the suggestions guys! I ordered my armband last night from Janice Gunn and finally caved and ordered both dvds as well (I guess I decided that I need to spend some money).

I intend on incorporating other things suggested, but I really, really like the idea of having a focal point on the armband with food. We've been teaching motivational pops, and I practiced a few times in the house just for fun with no food--instead we wrestled on the floor. I took her to the park yesterday day--still pretty distracted, but I would say marginally better as I could heel her a little longer than I have been.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

The other tip I'll offer up... be sure to mark/reward while heeling a lot and not just on halts. For a while, I was halting then rewarding, so I ended up with better attention in halts than on-the-move. Now, I frequently pop drop a piece of food out of the armband for him to catch while we're heeling -- or if I have food on the stick, as we're heeling I'll release him to jump up and get it. It made all the difference!


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

only when we're staying at a hotel, and I take him outside to play fetch, which he LOVES. He associates the flexi only with fun, which is why it surprises me that he won't work with it on. It's like he's telling me....WRONG LEASH LADY! Get it right!!!




gabbys mom said:


> That's really interesting. Do you ever walk him on one? Ozzie and I will do "fun" walks (walks where he can sniff and wander, usually ones where for some reason I can't let him off leash, but still want him on more than a 6 foot) and he associates the flexi with really fun stuff now.


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## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

that's interesting. I never forced the issue with him because he always runs out to the pile happily and works it diligently and happily. The reason for the flexi was that I was looking for more speed on the return to me with the article. 
That's been a frustration of mine, he comes back VERY slowly with the article. But ONLY in a show. Never in training. Never in a fun match. Never in a run through at our training building. 
Which makes it very hard to fix.




Loisiana said:


> Conner has that same reaction, so I actually used that to my advantage for using a flexi for articles. I used the stress of having a flexi to replicate the stress of being in the ring. When he had the flexi on he would freeze up, saying "this is too much pressure, I can't move another step." So I could go in and show him that he still had to work, even if it was stressful. And what I find amazing is that after he was shown that he really could do the work with the flexi on, he would actually run out to the pile the next time, flexi still on, tail waving madly. He was proud of himself for being able to do it on his own.


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