# I know there's no rule against it, but...



## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Sounds like blatant double-handling to me. BUT, it would be difficult to prove. It would be an interesting question to ask an AKC Obedience Rep.


----------



## IndyDan (May 19, 2009)

I have seen this happen,too. Maybe the rules need to change ... in more than one way!

I will have someone watching my dog ... but for other reasons.
See this thread .... 
https://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/threads/75453/


----------



## hotel4dogs (Sep 29, 2008)

I have seen it happen too, it's against the rules BIG TIME, but so are a lot of things that happen in obedience and conformation.


----------



## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

That is just outrageous cheating, lol. Very unsportsmanlike. There is actually so much cheating in general, that you have to wonder if people have lost perspective on why they are competing. There's a woman who competes with a Dobie here who uses a crafty prong collar that looks exactly like a flat buckled one, and she never seems to get caught. People like that have missed the whole point anyway.


----------



## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

Kohanagold said:


> I saw something this past weekend that really made me wonder.
> 
> I know a lady that has spent years trying to get her CDX on her dog. The dog consistantly goes down 1/2 way through the long sit. I honestly think the dog believes that is part of the exercise. Its been about 4-41/2 yrs of chasing this title for this dog. She does everything else very nicely, but almost always fails on that long sit.
> 
> ...


That is absolutely against the rules - under double handling. If you put in a complaint they will investigate and/or watch for that in the future


----------



## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

She should not be right up against the ring gate, obviously staring her dog down. But if she were sitting back with the rest of the audience I don't see a problem with it. It would be no different from people who hire someone else to train and show their dogs and then go to watch, or when you have a husband or wife in the audience watching.

In my mind the problem was the proximity that you described to the ring, but nothing else.


----------



## Mighty Casey and Samson's Mom (Jul 16, 2008)

OMG--I 'don't allow my family to come to trials because I'm afraid that Casey would see them and break!! (Dad! PLAY!!)
If it is really that important to her, let her get the title that way!
It is a dog title!
I know that OUR titles were earned legitimately, and I wouldn't want them if they weren't. I really don't care how other people get their titles. I think it must be very sad if people go to these ends to get their titles...what do they have to be proud of, really??
There is a lady I train with who has a 10 year old boxer. She has been trying for at least 4 years and probably 20 trial weekends to get his CDX. He always misses one exercise, but she smiles and keeps on trying. I think the whole region will have a giant party if they finally get that last leg! THAT would be worth celebrating!


----------



## Bender (Dec 30, 2008)

I've seen it happen too, not with swapping the handler, but with having someone you train with sitting outside the ring watching the dog. It is 'cheating' but then again training and having someone else correct your dog for something would be too I guess. I think if it's not really obvious there's not a lot you can do.

That being said, I had a hard time with my dobe years ago, he would run till we got to the teeter, then take off. Consistantly. On leash he'd do the teeter, in training he'd do it, but compete and he'd just wander off. So my trainer warmed him up and was very firm with him, and then stood outside the ring where the teeter was. Sure enough, he started to go around it, she stepped forward and he saw her and hopped on. I'm not sure I'd have kept competing or anything had I not had a bit of help.

I've also known of people who can use slight hand movements and mouth movements to double cue their dogs in the ring (mainly doing things when the judge is on the far side). Cheating or experienced handling? 

Lana


----------



## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Bender said:


> I've also known of people who can use slight hand movements and mouth movements to double cue their dogs in the ring (mainly doing things when the judge is on the far side). Cheating or experienced handling?
> 
> Lana


I'd say if they are trying to hide it, it's cheating. If it's something they would do anyway even if they know they'll probably get hit for it, then I'd call it good handling.

Saying that, I will admit to giving a very quiet "sit" command during heeling when I've had a no sit in hopes that the judge wouldn't hear it. So I guess that's really cheating. I would give the command even if I knew the judge could hear it because I don't want my dog thinking a no sit is okay in the ring.

I've also given a very blatant second command before that I fully expected to be NQ'd on that the judge missed and we still got a Q. I was praying that we wouldn't be in the placements because everyone else knew what I did and I would have been totally embarrassed if the judge put us up with that. Luckily we were half a point from the placements (wow, that's the only time I've made that statement)


----------



## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

I am in a very competitive area and if your consistantly in the placements you have everyone watching your every move in the ring.Alot of those watching are judges and if you cheat, 1st off you can guarantee someone will have seen it and second they will be talking about it. Not a reputation I want. I follow the judges instructions and do the best I can. My best friend/ instructor tells me if I don't like something ,stop complaining and fix it otherwise stop showing because there is nothing worse than losing to a cheater. I do not want to win anything that way. I would rather earn it ! Okay off my soapbox..LOL!


----------



## BayBeams (Jan 3, 2010)

It is against the rules and I for one would not be satisfied with a "win" accomplished by cheating. I do, however, know all levels of cheating that goes on, including people who regularly jump their dogs at a lower jump height, people who spray soft cheese on the ring poles before anyone else arrives and double handling during open groups. 
It is really too bad that the sport has those that shun their hard work by cheating to get a qualifier.
The judges are partly to blame for allowing it to happen. There is one judge who checks the jump heights but the rest of them just allow those top dogs to jump at amazingly low heights. I would already be showing in utility if I thought it was fair to jump my 8.5 y/o dog at 20 inches when her jump height should be 24.


----------



## rappwizard (May 27, 2009)

Kohanagold said:


> I saw something this past weekend that really made me wonder.
> 
> I know a lady that has spent years trying to get her CDX on her dog. The dog consistantly goes down 1/2 way through the long sit. I honestly think the dog believes that is part of the exercise. Its been about 4-41/2 yrs of chasing this title for this dog. She does everything else very nicely, but almost always fails on that long sit.
> 
> ...


Double-handling. And at what price. . .when the dog's number is called to come back into the ring for its ribbon, who goes in with the dog? It would be the new handler, not the previous handler, the owner. Is the owner going to want a photo of that new title win? With the new handler? Is the owner going to kneel next to the dog and hug it, with the handler and judge flanking her and her dog? What a hollow memory of the new title. Is the owner going to brag that "she" got a CDX on her dog? Did she really? Not really. (IMHO)

Train, don't complain. I believe that statement is so true.


----------



## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Ljilly28 said:


> That is just outrageous cheating, lol. Very unsportsmanlike. There is actually so much cheating in general, that you have to wonder if people have lost perspective on why they are competing. There's a woman who competes with a Dobie here who uses a crafty prong collar that looks exactly like a flat buckled one, and she never seems to get caught. People like that have missed the whole point anyway.


OK. THAT needs to be reported! That's absurd! I couldn't stand not reporting that out of respect for the sport. 

I can see where it's a matter of perspective regarding double handling vs. spectating outside the ring, but a PRONG COLLAR IN THE RING?!?!? :no:  :no:


----------



## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

BayBeams said:


> The judges are partly to blame for allowing it to happen. There is one judge who checks the jump heights but the rest of them just allow those top dogs to jump at amazingly low heights. I would already be showing in utility if I thought it was fair to jump my 8.5 y/o dog at 20 inches when her jump height should be 24.


On this last subject... I have a small male and he jumps 20 inches. I have been measured and re-measured by many judges in our area. One judge made a huge production thinking he was catching me at something...LOL . he kept the jumps at the same height and had to tell the crowd that had gathered outside the ring with the big production he made that I was in fact jumping the correct height. :doh: BTW my boy is 20 5/8".


----------



## BayBeams (Jan 3, 2010)

The dogs I was referring to are not Goldens but another familiar breed where the jump height is very obviously not the correct height. Many people know about it and talk about it but nothing is done to change it.


----------



## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

Titan1 said:


> On this last subject... I have a small male and he jumps 20 inches. I have been measured and re-measured by many judges in our area. One judge made a huge production thinking he was catching me at something...LOL . he kept the jumps at the same height and had to tell the crowd that had gathered outside the ring with the big production he made that I was in fact jumping the correct height. :doh: BTW my boy is 20 5/8".


Haha... People question me all the time about jumping Quiz 22/44 -- they think it's too tall! He's 21.5". I'm always like, "No, really...he's SUPPOSED to jump 22/44."


----------

