# Making Decision



## DNL2448 (Feb 13, 2009)

I totally understand your hesitation. Stays problems are the WORST and are a bear to work through. Your plan sounds good. Go ahead and enter, as late as you can, and play it by ear. Any issues, no show. If he is good, give it a try. (I know, I'm no help).


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I'm going to assume you are going to keep him in novice B for a few more trials before bumping him up to Open and the OOS stays there.... but yeah, I think you should go for it if he's doing perfect stays in fun matches and nonregular classes. 

I wish you were up here, because maybe Flip could teach Jacks a few things about keeping his butt in place. 

*This is off topic, but I sent my entries in to the trial as discussed on another thread. They had lower entries than normal, so I figured they could use that donation even if we stay out of the ring. If I'm not confident, we won't go out there as much as we'll enjoy watching everyone else.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

I've completely stopped training open stays and don't plan on returning to them until after we finish the CD. If I show in November then I'll probably start back on them during Christmas break. If I wait until January to show him then probably Marchish.


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## sammydog (Aug 23, 2008)

If he keeps his butt in place through everything before I see no reason not to enter/show him. It sounds like he has been doing great!


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## GoldenSail (Dec 30, 2008)

You should definitely do it if he is holding the stays.


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## JDandBigAm (Aug 25, 2008)

I think you should enter him. It sounds like he is doing a good job of holding his stays. You will be putting him through mock shows before the real deal in Nov. If he earns your trust thus your confidence in him then you two should be great.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Your decision to wait was such good sportsmanship. My dog Tally has solid stays for Open, but woman in our area is constantly entering an irish setter that wanders chronically. It does make me bummed, especially bc I can't see what is happening for myself. I do think if Flip is proofed and doing well, it is completely fair to others, to the dog, and to yourself enter him. I never mind if someone's dog randomly breaks the stay, bc I know my dog should be proofed for that ( he is). It is just the chronic offender who is so stressful. Also, in novice, you can see what is happening in the stays, so it is not as big a worry.


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## Casey and Samson's Mom (Sep 24, 2011)

Yes, try him in novice if he holds his stays at the matches. Do lots of practice stays in any and every household situation and enforce! I also like to do the opposition reflex stays, where you stand 6 ft away on leash and put a gentle traction toward you on the leash after telling him to stay. Casey really seemed to get the idea of stay after doing this. It is also an easy thing to cue before going in for the stays. Good luck...I agree that these are a pain when they are not working!


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Thanks everyone for your input. I'm so conflicted, but I guess I'll see how he does next weekend. I am so excited to be trialing again, even if we're not in regular obedience! We have six entries - three rally, wild card novice, wild card open, and graduate open - and four out of six of those runs we are showing to the same judge (Roger Ayres). I guess I should have a pretty good feel for his judging by the end of next weekend. (I know someone might be interested in that)


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Loisiana said:


> It does not matter that he wasn't being aggressive, it can still be upsetting to other dogs and I won't let my dog be the cause of their problems if I can help it.
> 
> So a week and a half later he was neutered.


Just a quick question to clarify. Was he neutered as a potential solution to the stay problem? Or was it just coincidental with the timing? I ask because I didn't realize that could help.

As far as the main question goes, I think if you've taken serious efforts to prevent wandering, you should absolutely get a chance to try him out again, particularly if it's in novice. It's classy of you to think about the other dogs and handlers, but at some point, you need to try him out again, even if there's a small risk that bad habits will resurface.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

tippykayak said:


> Just a quick question to clarify. Was he neutered as a potential solution to the stay problem? Or was it just coincidental with the timing? I ask because I didn't realize that could help.


When Flip hit two it was "WHAM BAM I've Gotta Use My Nose!" The only reason he was getting up from stays was to go sniff other dogs. He would stop in the middle of exercises to sniff the floor where other dogs had been. Just walking around a show site his teeth would start chattering and he would start foaming at the mouth. Speaking with several OTCH golden trainers/breeders, they said that observing Flip they would get him neutered if it were them, if I expected to get the performance from him that I had originally trained him to. And I was at the point that no matter how much training I did with him, I didn't think I'd ever get to the point again that I would fully trust leaving him on out of sight stays. So the decision was made, and I have to say that I am LOVING the results! Just a few weeks after neutering (giving time for the hormones to leave his system) we were back to training, and he was working better than he ever had in his life.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Good to know. I have a similar chattery, foamy issue with Comet (though he's generally good at holding out-of-sight stays right now at 4). He also shows hackles when he's excited, which can be confusing to people who think hackles=aggression. I didn't realize that neutering would change that behavior. Thanks for the perspective.


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

and that's not to say I'll do the same with the next dog. My preference would be to keep them intact. I don't want to use neutering as an attempt for an easy out for training issues. Truth be told, I was feeling pretty lousy about myself as a trainer for feeling like I wasn't capable of having him at the level I wanted without neutering. But it was what it was, and I think I made the right decision in this case.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Loisiana said:


> and that's not to say I'll do the same with the next dog. My preference would be to keep them intact. I don't want to use neutering as an attempt for an easy out for training issues. Truth be told, I was feeling pretty lousy about myself as a trainer for feeling like I wasn't capable of having him at the level I wanted without neutering. But it was what it was, and I think I made the right decision in this case.


No judgment here, just curiosity. It's certainly normal and appropriate to neuter a dog at two.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Loisiana said:


> When Flip hit two it was "WHAM BAM I've Gotta Use My Nose!" The only reason he was getting up from stays was to go sniff other dogs. He would stop in the middle of exercises to sniff the floor where other dogs had been. Just walking around a show site his teeth would start chattering and he would start foaming at the mouth. Speaking with several OTCH golden trainers/breeders, they said that observing Flip they would get him neutered if it were them, if I expected to get the performance from him that I had originally trained him to. And I was at the point that no matter how much training I did with him, I didn't think I'd ever get to the point again that I would fully trust leaving him on out of sight stays. So the decision was made, and I have to say that I am LOVING the results! Just a few weeks after neutering (giving time for the hormones to leave his system) we were back to training, and he was working better than he ever had in his life.


Thanks for explaining this, Jodie<:

I've never had a male dog have this reaction around other dogs. Even around females in heat which happens frequently at the two places we train at. My guy only chatters his teeth while checking out pee (cat pee, dog pee, etc - boys, girls, its). But that's different.

I don't know if it is something we are doing socialization-wise or if it's something in our well-water...? :uhoh::

If my guy had that kind of reaction at class or trials, he would have been neutered yesterday. :bowl:


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

FWIW; I think you need to go with what his reactions are at the matches and WC Novice. If it were me, that would probably be the best indicator on whether he is ready. It is hard I know, but if your gut still has reservations, taking a wait and see attitude before entering him in regular Novice might save you an ulcer


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## Titan1 (Jan 19, 2010)

Okay I think we are talking a couple different things here. Jodie you are a great trainer and competitor and I know you went through all kinds of turmoil before you made your decision and I completly support you in that decision. Flip is a trained dog who made very poor decisions based off his nose and hormones. Poor boy just lost his head . Flip knows better and it was clear he could not manage to concentrate through the fog at a big show..LOL! So Jodie's choices were to either get really tough and take all the fun out, stop showing until he was much older and still come down on him and then still have the possiblity of doing the same thing later or try to take the hormones out and see what she has now.
I waited forever to collect Titan because I was terrified that he would figure out that what girls were for. Rest assured I would have done the same thing. Showing is what we want to do, the rest is just the rest.
Titan will chatter when sniffing the ground at an all breed show outside but he has never tried anything like it in the ring. Make your decisions based off your individual dog and what you want to do with them. 
Jodie I look forward to hearing about Flip being awesome!


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