# Does anyone know this breeder?



## Hombrespop (Sep 3, 2012)

Don't know the breeder but be sure all clearance for the two parent dogs are there and current.


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## Ninde'Gold (Oct 21, 2006)

Looks like there's a lot of Ambertru dogs in their lines, and I know Ambertru's dogs are good.

Just make sure all their clearances are done but I think you're okay!


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## mickeychick (Jul 19, 2012)

Hmm that is one I've never heard of. If I was going to get another one, I'd likely go with Arcane, however she is not having any litters for at least 2 years now. I noticed on her website she says she will gladly recommend breeders whom she would trust. I'd ask her. Available puppies or planned litters


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## Millie'sMom (Sep 7, 2012)

I don't know this breeder, who are the prospective parents? I looked briefly at the website and noticed she did not post the clearances of her dogs, and doesn't always say which clearances they have. I looked up one dog on OFA database, the clearances for hips and elbows were there. Agree with the poster above, make sure all clearances, elbows, hips, eyes and heart are there and current. My puppy came with a DVD with all the clearances for both her parents.

There are lots of more experienced members on the forum that can give you a better opinion of this breeder.


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## Laurie (Sep 20, 2009)

I would just make sure all of the clearances are done and up to date. 

I'm fairly new to all of this but it looks like a fairly nice pedigree. DJ is super handsome! Hollykins Rio Grande (Rio) is my puppy's maternal grandpa.


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## Jamm (Mar 28, 2010)

I would ask her for sure for clearances  I know some breeders aren't 100% active on their website so I wouldn't write them off just yet. Ask them to see clearances and then you'll be good to go!


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

BTW, the clearances needed are:
Cardiac/Heart (once, after the dog is 24 months)
Hips (once, after the dog is 24 months - should be a score of excellent, good or fair)
Elbows (once, after the dog is 24 months)
Eyes/CERF (every year after the dog is 24 months)

Thyroid and Ichthyosis is optional.

You can search for clearances at offa.org and CERF - CERF Information (Brochure).


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## murphy1 (Jun 21, 2012)

go to k9data.com and put in the parents of the puppy. It will show clearances etc.


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## Millie'sMom (Sep 7, 2012)

murphy1 said:


> go to k9data.com and put in the parents of the puppy. It will show clearances etc.


Unfortunately, dad's clearances are up on k9data but not mom's


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## CarolinaCasey (Jun 1, 2007)

Here is DJ, the sire's clearances. 
He has hips & elbows.
http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1378157#animal
You need to ask for heart and a current eye CERF clearances as they weren't submitted to the database. DJ's sire isn't linked up to his page for some reason. It is here: 
http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1091655#animal

Dam clearances:
http://www.offa.org/display.html?appnum=1482227#animal
Again, you need to ask for eye and heart clearances. Eyes need to be done within 12 months of the breeding. 
With Shya's parents, they had clearances done by OVC which is a Canadian registry like OFA but it is no longer in business. You will need to ask about the history there as there is no database. 




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## Gold.T.O (Oct 10, 2012)

Thank you so much. 
I emailed the breeder about the clearance and this is the reply I got: 
"When you get your puppy you get a copy of all the clearances, and a packet of info.
I currently don't have a working scanner so I can't email you copies.
I could send you them snail mail.
I have never had anyone doubt that I would provide the proper proof of clearances....
Not quite sure why you need them ahead of time."

Should I consider this as a red flag or should I ask more firmly about the clearances? 


Again, thank you so much guys. I just want to have all my corners covered before I bring the puppy.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Couldn't she take a pic with her cell phone and email the pic to you?


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## golden_eclipse (Apr 1, 2011)

To be honest, I really don't like her tone....good breeders love when prospective buyers ask to see proof of clearances BEFORE buying the puppy. Its like if you wait till the day you pick your puppy up for the clearances, what are the chances of you turning the puppy down if something is out of place? Not very high since you are coming that day to pick the puppy up. She does have the opportunity to just submit the clearances to OFA, which would mean mailing it once, and it would visible to everyone online, let alone she would be following the code of ethics. In all, if it were me, not really my style of breeder...but you might be able to work with it. But I would request them to be mailed* before you agree,* because you need to see them, otherwise there is *no proof they exist at all. *


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## MGMF (May 13, 2009)

Sire: (DJ) Has hips and elbows on OFA. The owners have listed in K9data he has CERF eyes and heart. There is no known registry for this dog in CERF.
OFA and CERF are valid legit registries. K9date is only self entered so it is not your reliable source for clearances. 
Dam: Syha - She has hips and elbows in OFA but missing eyes and hearts. Again not listing in the CERF registry.

As far as the breeders response for clearances that is wrong. You have a right to see or question the verify clearances before you decide on purchasing from a litter. To me that would mean they have something to hide and I would walk away. This is a hugh red flag and poor breeding practice as far as I am concerned. I would question they even have them if they can't present them. They are probably counting of the don't-know-any-better puppy owners to not notice. I would definitely ask them to mail you a copy of all the clearance and then you could re-consider at the time if you so wish. Good Luck


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## MGMF (May 13, 2009)

If they have never had anyone question clearances then they never had anyone who is concerned with health get a puppy from them.


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## Gold.T.O (Oct 10, 2012)

That's exactly what I said to myself! SheetsSM. 
It does look a little fishy and now that you guys have confirmed that, I am definitely not comfortable continuing our correspondence. 
I have been talking to Amberview breeders as well. (index). They have a litter coming up by BG's The Grapes Of Wrath ~ Joady.
Has anyone dealt with them before? 

Also, there's another breeder that I have kept in mind: Sunkozi breeders (Sunkozi Golden Retrievers and Rottweilers - Welcome to Sunkozi). They have a litter between Salem and Jaxx. 

Is there anything I should know about any of these guys? I would love any suggestions you guys can give me. 

Thank you so much!


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## Jamm (Mar 28, 2010)

I've heard great things from Amberview and Sunkozi. You seem to be looking more in the east end of ONT? Have you checked out Ambertru? Thats where I got my baby boy Joey  I love Connie.. she's an awesome breeder!


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## Gold.T.O (Oct 10, 2012)

Jamm said:


> I've heard great things from Amberview and Sunkozi. You seem to be looking more in the east end of ONT? Have you checked out Ambertru? Thats where I got my baby boy Joey  I love Connie.. she's an awesome breeder!


I did look at Ambertru but they don't have any litters available. The only thing is , Jengar was actually suggested by them and I've heard only great things about Ambertru. 
I'm looking all over Ontario. I live in Toronto and I am willing to travel up to 5 hours to see and get the puppy. If you have any suggestions about any other breeders, please let me know. 

Ah! I so hope one of them works out! :crossfing


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## Jamm (Mar 28, 2010)

Finger's crossed for you! Like I said, Sunkozi and Amberview have been very well received by other members here


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## jackie_hubert (Jun 2, 2010)

There is also In the Pink. I like the more moderate dogs so I'm personally not a fan of the Ambertru dogs but they are very popular.

Good luck!


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## Jamm (Mar 28, 2010)

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## Gold.T.O (Oct 10, 2012)

I was curious too but ah! well, you edited your post! 


Jamm said:


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## Jamm (Mar 28, 2010)

It's not worth it  Go with a breeder who does the right stuff. Clearances and all.


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## Millie'sMom (Sep 7, 2012)

My girl's father is an Amberview golden, now owned by someone else. She is a great sport dog and agility, hunting and herding. She is slight only 21.5 inches and 45 pounds at 2.5 years.


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## Gold.T.O (Oct 10, 2012)

Millie'sMom said:


> My girl's father is an Amberview golden, now owned by someone else. She is a great sport dog and agility, hunting and herding. She is slight only 21.5 inches and 45 pounds at 2.5 years.


Thank you so much! This helped!


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## Millie'sMom (Sep 7, 2012)

Dgauba said:


> Thank you so much! This helped!


Would you object if i PM'd you with more information and a pic of the stud dog? I do not want to post a pic of someone else's dog on a public forum.


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## Gold.T.O (Oct 10, 2012)

Millie'sMom said:


> Would you object if i PM'd you with more information and a pic of the stud dog? I do not want to post a pic of someone else's dog on a public forum.


I would LOVE that! Please go ahead! And thank you so much. 


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## MGMF (May 13, 2009)

Dgauba said:


> I have been talking to Amberview breeders as well. (index). They have a litter coming up by BG's The Grapes Of Wrath ~ Joady.
> Has anyone dealt with them before?
> 
> Also, there's another breeder that I have kept in mind: Sunkozi breeders (Sunkozi Golden Retrievers and Rottweilers - Welcome to Sunkozi). They have a litter between Salem and Jaxx.
> ...


Jaxx needs updated eyes since May.
Salem does not show eyes. On k9data they list she has CERF eyes but there is no listing for this dog in the CERF database.

Joady is missing her hearts and eyes. Quick looking into history her father is missing hips and elbows. Due to his age he should at least have hips registered. Elbows started around that time giving them the benefit of the doubt. 
Noah according to the k9data had x-rays done with OVC. This is not an OFA clearance and maybe some of our canadian friends can help with that as I am not familiar. Registration numbers listed still don't help anyway as they do not show the grade of the hips or elbows. The hearts and eyes again I would need to see the copies and know they were cleared and in and up-to-date. Bit of research on this litters you would need to do.


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## Gold.T.O (Oct 10, 2012)

MGMF said:


> Jaxx needs updated eyes since May.
> Salem does not show eyes. On k9data they list she has CERF eyes but there is no listing for this dog in the CERF database.
> 
> Joady is missing her hearts and eyes. Quick looking into history her father is missing hips and elbows. Due to his age he should at least have hips registered. Elbows started around that time giving them the benefit of the doubt.
> Noah according to the k9data had x-rays done with OVC. This is not an OFA clearance and maybe some of our canadian friends can help with that as I am not familiar. Registration numbers listed still don't help anyway as they do not show the grade of the hips or elbows. The hearts and eyes again I would need to see the copies and know they were cleared and in and up-to-date. Bit of research on this litters you would need to do.


I emailed them the concerns. I looked up their pedigree but I am still not familiar with all types of clearances (need to catch up on my readings, haha)!
I can't tell you how helpful this has been so far and I can only imagine what an asset you guys are to this forum! 

Again, thank you so much!


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## Hombrespop (Sep 3, 2012)

Find a breeder that has their act together there are many and it would take a lot of concern and worry out of your mind. You are far better off spending your money for a quality puppy even if its more than you wanted to pay than a lot of vet bills which aren't cheap to say nothing of the stress on you a possibly sick puppy can cause you.


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## Millie'sMom (Sep 7, 2012)

MGMF said:


> Noah according to the k9data had x-rays done with OVC. This is not an OFA clearance and maybe some of our canadian friends can help with that as I am not familiar. Registration numbers listed still don't help anyway as they do not show the grade of the hips or elbows.
> 
> OVC clearances were done by the Ontario Veterinary College in Guelph On. They stopped doing clearances for hips at the end of Oct 2011. The results from OVC were simply pass or fail, no grade was given, so you did not know if the hips were great or just barely a pass. I am not sure if they have an accessible database.


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## Gold.T.O (Oct 10, 2012)

nuggets dad said:


> Find a breeder that has their act together there are many and it would take a lot of concern and worry out of your mind. You are far better off spending your money for a quality puppy even if its more than you wanted to pay than a lot of vet bills which aren't cheap to say nothing of the stress on you a possibly sick puppy can cause you.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using PetGuide


I couldn't agree more. I don't mind paying whatever amount for the puppy as long as its healthy. The only recommendations I got were ambertru(not breeding for a while), amberview and sunkozi. 
I guess perseverance and attention to detail is most important right now. I will not be deterred by ignorant breeders! Lol!


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## Gold.T.O (Oct 10, 2012)

Millie'sMom said:


> MGMF said:
> 
> 
> > Noah according to the k9data had x-rays done with OVC. This is not an OFA clearance and maybe some of our canadian friends can help with that as I am not familiar. Registration numbers listed still don't help anyway as they do not show the grade of the hips or elbows.
> ...


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## Gold.T.O (Oct 10, 2012)

Guys, have you heard anything about goldenassett kennels(http://www.goldenassetkennels.ca/)? 
They are breeding a litter and the breeder is nt disclosing the name of the sire or the Dam.
When I asked about the clearances, she said that she doesn't put them online because people might photoshop and use them for their own dogs. 
Should I consider this a red flag?


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Dgauba said:


> Guys, have you heard anything about goldenassett kennels(http://www.goldenassetkennels.ca/)?
> They are breeding a litter and the breeder is nt disclosing the name of the sire or the Dam.
> When I asked about the clearances, she said that she doesn't put them online because people might photoshop and use them for their own dogs.
> Should I consider this a red flag?


 
Run Far Far away!! Yes huge red flag!

The only way hips and elbow are clearances are if they go through OFFA.org. That is BS.

Then ask her to see a copy of it. How is someone supposed to know they are done then??

Run away!


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## MGMF (May 13, 2009)

Dgauba said:


> Guys, have you heard anything about goldenassett kennels(http://www.goldenassetkennels.ca/)?
> They are breeding a litter and the breeder is nt disclosing the name of the sire or the Dam.
> When I asked about the clearances, she said that she doesn't put them online because people might photoshop and use them for their own dogs.
> Should I consider this a red flag?


BS is right. Even if someone would ever copy clearances they can't get OFA to post the match online. This excuse is a hugh red flag so I would run.


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## marquar (Oct 14, 2012)

Hello everyone,
I am Jennifer Marquardt, the golden retriever breeder at Jengar Golden Retrievers that you have all be discussing. I just wanted to compliment all of you for being so diligent in giving advice for what to look for in a breeder.

I wanted to reassure all of you that I do all the required clearances on all my dogs prior to breeding. I have been in goldens since 1987 and been breeding since 1998. I compete in conformation, agility, obedience and rally obedience (and have earned title in all areas!!). My biggest brag however is the inclusion of my goldens in the classroom as part of a therapy dog program entitled Paws to Read with the Therapeutic Paws of Canada. My dogs come right into the class where the children read to them raising self esteem and overall reading confidence. WHat a testament to this wonderful breed.
Please remember that just because you haven't personally heard of a breeder, it doesn't mean they aren't reputable. And just because you have, doesn't mean that they are... Do your homework, talk to breeders and go meet them and their dogs. I agree that health and temperament are of utmost importances. I welcome any questions about my breeding program..... 
Sincerely Jennifer Marquardt
Jengar Golden Retrievers


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## Gold.T.O (Oct 10, 2012)

kfayard said:


> Run Far Far away!! Yes huge red flag!
> 
> The only way hips and elbow are clearances are if they go through OFFA.org. That is BS.
> 
> ...


Haha! Yeah, I am not even contacting them anymore.  
Thank you for confirming!


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

I was just thinking how long it was going to take before the breeder was going to chime in. Jennifer, much discussion has made on the clearances of your goldens--it's been stated that you're reluctant to share clearance info until puppy pickup day. If so, why? The top goldens out there readily have their info available for viewing via online databases--what makes your goldens so special that their's should not be made available as well? It would sure help someone doing their research prior to pickup day to ensure that they're pursuing a reputable breeder--the golden world has way too many people talking the talk but not walking the walk, so I think you can appreciate from a potential puppy buyer's perspective the need to full do one's homework prior to committing to a puppy.


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## marquar (Oct 14, 2012)

Once again all great questions.
Usually I have people come to my home for the first visit where they see clearances first hand. Then a hard copy is given with the contract for their records.... 
I am more than happy to provide a copy of clearances... I was fully prepared to snail mail them.... 
I stand behind my dogs and my clearances... nuff said!


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## Jamm (Mar 28, 2010)

Welcome and thanks for posting! Glad to see and hear your side of the story  Your dogs are quite gorgeous! Hopefully this gives the OP some more info


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## Gold.T.O (Oct 10, 2012)

marquar said:


> Once again all great questions.
> Usually I have people come to my home for the first visit where they see clearances first hand. Then a hard copy is given with the contract for their records....
> I am more than happy to provide a copy of clearances... I was fully prepared to snail mail them....
> I stand behind my dogs and my clearances... nuff said!



I am ecstatic! Thank you so much Jen!:wavey:


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## Amberview (Apr 11, 2009)

*Comments made without asking first.*



MGMF said:


> Jaxx needs updated eyes since May.
> Salem does not show eyes. On k9data they list she has CERF eyes but there is no listing for this dog in the CERF database.
> 
> Joady is missing her hearts and eyes. Quick looking into history her father is missing hips and elbows. Due to his age he should at least have hips registered. Elbows started around that time giving them the benefit of the doubt.
> Noah according to the k9data had x-rays done with OVC. This is not an OFA clearance and maybe some of our canadian friends can help with that as I am not familiar. Registration numbers listed still don't help anyway as they do not show the grade of the hips or elbows. The hearts and eyes again I would need to see the copies and know they were cleared and in and up-to-date. Bit of research on this litters you would need to do.


I feel to need to address this comment made above. As the owner of both Noah and Joady, neither are missing hip/elbow, heart or eye clearances. Secondly, if anyone has a question about a dog would it not make sense to contact the owner prior to making assumptions. OVC (the Ontario Veterinary College) is the governing body in Canada who certify hips and elbows. It is the Canadian version to OFA. Information listed on k9data is there as a tool for breeders to help make informed breeding decisions. Registration numbers are not going to change the outcome of a dogs health. If someone is interested in one of our dogs, I/we are only too happy to provide such. We have been actively involved in Golden Retrievers since 1985 in all areas of participation ~ obedience, field, conformation, flyball and pet therapy. Our travels with our dogs have taken us all over Canada, USA and Bermuda. We welcome your enquiries and hope everyone continues to research thoroughly when looking for a puppy and/or breeder 
Best Wishes,
Colleen Skelton


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## goldenas (Apr 8, 2009)

Hey Everyone.. Mary from GoldenAsset kennels here... Since I have been mentioned in the above posts.. I thought I would join in.
I haven't updated my site to add the information about the breeding pair that I have bred. I guess if that makes me a bad breeder so be it. 
ALL my breeding dogs have their clearances on hips/elbow/heart and eyes. In fact every spring I have a Cerf. Clinic here at my kennel and is open to anyone who would like to get there dogs eyes done. 
And I would like to cordially invite Kfayard to come and visit myself and my dogs and see my kennel and then could make a informed decision about my kennel and policies.
You know it really does erk me that some people can be so free willing with their advice when they really don't know what they are talking about as they have never been to the place that they are giving advice about. But these kinds of people are always the first to have a negative opinion. 
If anyone would like to take the time and come and meet me and the dogs I would be more then happy to sit down and discuss every aspect of my dogs, my guarantee and also my expectations of what I expect of you also. Buyers have to put in time also... not just hit their send button. Take the time and visit any breeder you are interested in... I am sure any good reputable breeder will answer all your questions. If then you don't get the answers you like... then move on to the next!


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## golden_eclipse (Apr 1, 2011)

Hi Mary, 

Would you mind sharing the registered names of the parents of the litter in question? People come to this forum to have more experienced people give them advice, most of that means simply confirming nor denying that clearances are listed and available on an online database as the COE suggest should happen. 

The OP said you don't share health clearance information with the public, this is not generally practiced by any reputable breeder. Since health clearances as you know should be available on the OFA website to allow other breeders helpful information in making breeding decisions, and allow for potential puppy owners to do their due diligence. 

Thanks, 

Kim


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I welcome my future puppy owners to visit the OFA website to see that my bitches have four or five clearances...that way there is no discussion.


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## goldenas (Apr 8, 2009)

Amberview said:


> I feel to need to address this comment made above. As the owner of both Noah and Joady, neither are missing hip/elbow, heart or eye clearances. Secondly, if anyone has a question about a dog would it not make sense to contact the owner prior to making assumptions. OVC (the Ontario Veterinary College) is the governing body in Canada who certify hips and elbows. It is the Canadian version to OFA. Information listed on k9data is there as a tool for breeders to help make informed breeding decisions. Registration numbers are not going to change the outcome of a dogs health. If someone is interested in one of our dogs, I/we are only too happy to provide such. We have been actively involved in Golden Retrievers since 1985 in all areas of participation ~ obedience, field, conformation, flyball and pet therapy. Our travels with our dogs have taken us all over Canada, USA and Bermuda. We welcome your enquiries and hope everyone continues to research thoroughly when looking for a puppy and/or breeder
> Best Wishes,
> Colleen Skelton


When I have the time I will update my site. Registered names of my dogs are on that. As most of my breeding stock are registered OVC they are not listed on the OFA site. And like I said before if you have a question about any of my dogs feel free to make time to set up a time to come and visit. 
As you can tell I am not a big fan of any type of forums. It doesn't matter if it is about dogs, cats, or even house building...etc. It is to easy for people that think they know what they are talking about to make an opinion about someone or something they really don't know. Again! I welcome anyone that would like to have one of my pups to put the time into purchasing a pup and spend time with the breeder. Not just by sending emails to make the final decision. If I remember right there is also a sticky posted about ... don't judge a breeder by the website... but yet it is done here over and over again! 
Again to anyone... If you would like to come by and meet me and my dogs I would love to hear from you... and I would be glad to show you clearance.


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## golden_eclipse (Apr 1, 2011)

OVC clearances can be submitted to the OFA to be listed on the website. Providing the registered names to potential puppy buyers would be a minimum, the OP gave the impression that you didn't do this for fear that people will somehow "steal" this information. You can see how people would get the impression of less than an ideal situation. I personally made my comment without looking at your website, I personally don't care what the website says, if the clearances aren't listed on an online database, they are not much use to me. If the breeder is not willing to share the information with potential puppy buyers, the buyers can find a breeder that will.

These forums have their down sides, but in situations like this, I think they can be a great tool for education for breeders like you and potential puppy buyers. There is always more information to be had and do things better, no use in working in a glass box, breeding was not meant to be practiced like that. (ie. Conformation, agility, obedience, ect. )


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

OVCis the Canadian version to OFA with some exceptions. OVC clearances can be done at 18 months vs OFA at 24 months. OVC hips are pass/fail.. No ratings of fair, good, excellent... And can you look up OVC clearances on a website, now?


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## Gold.T.O (Oct 10, 2012)

goldenas said:


> When I have the time I will update my site. Registered names of my dogs are on that. As most of my breeding stock are registered OVC they are not listed on the OFA site. And like I said before if you have a question about any of my dogs feel free to make time to set up a time to come and visit.
> As you can tell I am not a big fan of any type of forums. It doesn't matter if it is about dogs, cats, or even house building...etc. It is to easy for people that think they know what they are talking about to make an opinion about someone or something they really don't know. Again! I welcome anyone that would like to have one of my pups to put the time into purchasing a pup and spend time with the breeder. Not just by sending emails to make the final decision. If I remember right there is also a sticky posted about ... don't judge a breeder by the website... but yet it is done here over and over again!
> Again to anyone... If you would like to come by and meet me and my dogs I would love to hear from you... and I would be glad to show you clearance.


I feel the need to address this since I've talking about you and Jengar and Amberview. 
I would like to start off by saying that both Jengar and Amberview had the names of the Sire and Dam available on the website. 
In our email correspondence, that's the first thing I asked you. You can't expect me to commit to you without even knowing the names of the dogs. 
As a potential buyer, I will let you in on a secret. We contact about 20 breeders to begin with. It is practically impossible for me to go and visit those 20 breeders. 
In this day and age, online support forums are the greatest thing! If you want an example, I urge you to go ahead and just browse this one and it will show you that so many people take time out from their busy lives to come forward and help newbies like myself and a lot others. This is one of the most efficient one I've seen. 
Now, I am not a breeder but as it has been previously mentioned in this thread, it would seem like if I've bred a dog which is good, excellent or exceptional, I would like everybody to know about that.

I have nothing against anyone. I am just a buyer who is looking for straight answers before I commit to such a huge life altering experience. 
I hope you understand.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

First Off, I will be the First one to admit if I am wrong!! According to your website, under FAQ, all parents (breeding pairs of yours) have OFA clearances?? But, how can they have OFA clearances if it is not listed on the website?

You mention hip, eye diseases, and cardiac, but no mention of elbows? Is elbows not a concern for you? 

If you are doing everything right, then I do not see a problem correcting me and pointing where these clearances are located. Unless, you have all of your dog's registration names wrong.

Sorry, but I will not even give a breeder the time of day if they do not do clearances. 

What are you as a breeder doing to improve the health of the breed?

This person is doing their research and good for them. People should research on their own and then contact the breeder. Check clearances first and if that is in order then contact them.

If no clearance, do not even waster your time emailing.


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## MGMF (May 13, 2009)

Amberview said:


> I feel to need to address this comment made above. As the owner of both Noah and Joady, neither are missing hip/elbow, heart or eye clearances. Secondly, if anyone has a question about a dog would it not make sense to contact the owner prior to making assumptions. OVC (the Ontario Veterinary College) is the governing body in Canada who certify hips and elbows. It is the Canadian version to OFA. Information listed on k9data is there as a tool for breeders to help make informed breeding decisions. Registration numbers are not going to change the outcome of a dogs health. If someone is interested in one of our dogs, I/we are only too happy to provide such. We have been actively involved in Golden Retrievers since 1985 in all areas of participation ~ obedience, field, conformation, flyball and pet therapy. Our travels with our dogs have taken us all over Canada, USA and Bermuda. We welcome your enquiries and hope everyone continues to research thoroughly when looking for a puppy and/or breeder
> Best Wishes,
> Colleen Skelton


I did not make any assumptions and only responded to the OP asking for help. I simply stated what clearances I found through OFA and CERF. I did not say Joady did not have hips and elbows. I did say I did not see eyes and heart and they would have to do more research. I did say you noted Noah had his hips and elbows done with OVC and ask for those more familiar with OVC to respond. I did say I could not find Noah's eyes and heart clearances and again they would need to do more research. I did not ask for OVC registration number but did say the numbers you listed on k9data do not help us distinguish the grade of passing. All these things are facts and in no way a negative opinion of your breeding practice or saying you did not have what is needed. No one questioned your involvement or travels with the breed. K9data is a wonderful tool but it is in no means a valid source for clearances. I do believe the owners have the right to ask for help and I give them credit for doing their homework looking for a healthy puppy. I do believe, especially with the world wide web, clearances should be visible and easy to find.


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## gold_n_lovr (Feb 4, 2008)

To Whom it May Concern:



I can assure you that Jengar Goldens are ethical breeders, who keep longevity, health, temperament, and structure at the top of her list prior to breeding.

I have Shya's clearances, DJ's clearances, and I even own a beautiful Jengar myself !



Carole 
Bowbell Goldens
Champion Bowbell's Hustle'n Flow (DJ)

PS. Thanks Laurie for saying DJ is handsome, Shya is equally as beautiful, after spending 8 days here at Bowbell whilst breeding, I didn't want to give her back  !


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

Just an FYI folks, since all of the breeders under discussion are Canadian--the GRCC's Code of Ethics is slightly different than the GRCA's. While many Canadian breeders also belong to the GRCA, and do follow those standards as well as a result, please remember that the GRCA COE is not the GRCC's COE!!

The big difference here is that our COE does not require submission of eye and heart forms to OFA and CERF, (that is not to say many of us do not submit, I for one do), but it is not a REQUIREMENT of the Canadian club, and frankly, expecting breeders to adhere to the COE of a club of which they are not a member, and is not their national breed club is not realistic. If they can show hard copies of the examination reports that is acceptable by the current GRCC COE.

Here is the clearance excerpt:
" In consideration of the aim of the overall improvement of the breed, the breeder must decline any breeding when the presence of any undesirable or potentially debilitating genetic or behavioural trait is known or suspected in either the sire or the dam. As a minimum requirement, all breeding stock should hold:
i) A certificate of examination from the Ontario Veterinary College (OVC) or the Western College of Veterinary Medicine (WCVM) indicating no evidence of hip dysplasia at a minimum age of 18 months; or A report of examination from the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals (OFA) indicating no evidence of hip dysplasia at the minimum age of 18 months; or Appropriate clearance from the dog's country of residency.ii) A certificate of examination from the Ontario Veterinary College (OVC) or the Western College of Veterinary Medicine (WCVM) indicating no evidence of elbow dysplasia at a minimum age of 18 months; or A report of examination from the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals (OFA) indicating no evidence of elbow dysplasia at the minimum age of 18 months; or Appropriate clearance from the dog's country of residency.iii) A current annual certificate of examination indicating no evidence of inherited eye disease or functional abnormalities of the eye from a Diplomate of the American College of Veterinary Ophthalmology (ACVO) or a member of the Canadian Association of Veterinary Ophthalmologists (CAVO) or Appropriate clearance from the dog's country of residency. iv) A certificate of examination from a Diplomate of the American College of Veterinary Internal Medicine- Cardiology (DACVIM-C) indicating no physical signs of cardiovascular disease; or Where a DACVIM-C is unavailable, a certificate of examination indicating no physical signs of cardiovascular disease from a Doctor of Veterinary Medicine (DVM) with qualifications acceptable for OFA cardiology certification." 

And as to the criticism of OVC clearances as being only pass-fail, this has been bandied about too often--frankly, I know of dogs who could not get an OVC clear, who went to OFA and got a Fair. It is an accepted clearance--if not, it would not be listed in the GRCA COE as acceptable for Canadian dogs and breeders. The major issue with it was the lack of a comprehensive database for independent confirmation. Since they have discontinued the service however, it will not be an issue going forward, and will just require the due diligence of puppy buyers to ask to see the certificates for dogs cleared under it in the past.


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## golden_eclipse (Apr 1, 2011)

I don't think anyone said "don't go to this breeder since the eye and heart clearances aren't submitted" they did say that the buyer needs to ASK for the paper work and confirm the clearances have been done correctly and are up to date. It obviously is preferred that clearances are submitted since it makes* health research easier for everyone*, buyer and breeders alike, and it truly will help improve the breed in the long run. Calling an eye exam a CERF clearance is really inaccurate, its only CERF if it has been submitted, otherwise its just an eye exam. Considering PU is such a big deal these days, its strange that just across the boarder nothing seems to be changing to help the situation. Most dogs being bred in Canada are very similar to pedigrees in the states, why should standards be any different when you are facing very similar health problems? I think the advice given was appropiate and that the buyer simply should be asking to see clearances, if that isn't possible for the breeder, than elsewhere the buyer should look, its the same advice everytime.


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## Amberview (Apr 11, 2009)

MGMF said:


> I did not make any assumptions and only responded to the OP asking for help. I simply stated what clearances I found through OFA and CERF. I did not say Joady did not have hips and elbows. I did say I did not see eyes and heart and they would have to do more research. I did say you noted Noah had his hips and elbows done with OVC and ask for those more familiar with OVC to respond. I did say I could not find Noah's eyes and heart clearances and again they would need to do more research. I did not ask for OVC registration number but did say the numbers you listed on k9data do not help us distinguish the grade of passing. All these things are facts and in no way a negative opinion of your breeding practice or saying you did not have what is needed. No one questioned your involvement or travels with the breed. K9data is a wonderful tool but it is in no means a valid source for clearances. I do believe the owners have the right to ask for help and I give them credit for doing their homework looking for a healthy puppy. I do believe, especially with the world wide web, clearances should be visible and easy to find.


In my reply, I indicated both Noah and Joady jointly together as having full clearances. Please if you have any questions or doubt about the health of a breeders dog. Rather than cast doubt or assume a dog is lacking simply because you don't see it on OFA...doesn't mean they DO NOT exist!! OVC is a registering body recognized by GRCC and the fields on k9data beside eyes and heart indicate the dates of each examination. Should anyone wish confirmation of certification, copies can be provided. As you so carefully pointed out, with today's technology information can easily be shared via the computer. However we also must be careful what we say about one anothers dog(s) without having the facts!


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## Amberview (Apr 11, 2009)

sterregold said:


> Just an FYI folks, since all of the breeders under discussion are Canadian--the GRCC's Code of Ethics is slightly different than the GRCA's. While many Canadian breeders also belong to the GRCA, and do follow those standards as well as a result, please remember that the GRCA COE is not the GRCC's COE!!
> 
> The big difference here is that our COE does not require submission of eye and heart forms to OFA and CERF, (that is not to say many of us do not submit, I for one do), but it is not a REQUIREMENT of the Canadian club, and frankly, expecting breeders to adhere to the COE of a club of which they are not a member, and is not their national breed club is not realistic. If they can show hard copies of the examination reports that is acceptable by the current GRCC COE.
> 
> ...


 :wavey::wavey::wavey::wavey::wavey:
Thanks ever so much for posting!!


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## sterregold (Dec 9, 2009)

kdowningxc said:


> Most dogs being bred in Canada are very similar to pedigrees in the states, why should standards be any different when you are facing very similar health problems?


 
Mainly, because we are an independent country with our own independent national breed club who is the arbiter of the standard of breeding practices for *our* members. Our COE says the testing of the big four is to be done, outlines the acceptable registries and/or qualifications of the testers, and requires that reports to be made available to buyers. Even the GRCA COE states that dogs GRCA members breed to in other countries are to have clearances consistent with *that* country's COE. Our COE is currently under discussion for revision in light of emerging health information, including not just PU issues, but also the now 3 forms of PRA testable by DNA. But until a new one is published and voted on by our membership (that is the process required by our constitution), it is the standard in OUR country. 

(Beware, Canadians get very testy when it comes to issues of sovereignty. Especially in the centenary of 1812!)


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## arcane (Sep 18, 2007)

MGMF said:


> Jaxx needs updated eyes since May.
> Salem does not show eyes. On k9data they list she has CERF eyes but there is no listing for this dog in the CERF database.
> 
> Joady is missing her hearts and eyes. Quick looking into history her father is missing hips and elbows. Due to his age he should at least have hips registered. Elbows started around that time giving them the benefit of the doubt.
> Noah according to the k9data had x-rays done with OVC. This is not an OFA clearance and maybe some of our canadian friends can help with that as I am not familiar. Registration numbers listed still don't help anyway as they do not show the grade of the hips or elbows. The hearts and eyes again I would need to see the copies and know they were cleared and in and up-to-date. Bit of research on this litters you would need to do.


Jaxx from Sunkozi, does have current eyes, as well as all other required clearances, he just sired a litter for me in June ...Bev (Sunkozi) is very reputable, and goes above what is required in terms of clearances. Jenn, @ Jengar is also another reputable breeder. Just because the clearances are not on the OFA,Cerf sites, does not mean they haven't been done..I show prospective puppy families, and include copies in my going home puppy packets.

*LOL, now that I have read the total thread, I see most of the questions have been answered by the breeders themselves!!! :wave:*


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## MGMF (May 13, 2009)

Canada and US golden retriever clubs have only slight differences in the COE. They both ask for the min. of the four main required: hips, elbows, heart and eyes with differences such as age of certified. (Ex: hips, OVC is 18mo., OFA is 24mo.) Just like Canada, US breeders are not required to submit eye and heart evaluation but need to have hard copies of the exam. Personally I don't know why they wouldn't but it is up to them. As far as the OVC they no longer do clearances for hips and elbows which were at the time only a pass or fail grade. When they did offer this service X-rays were not taken with the OVC. They were x-rayed by their local vet or clinic who would submit them to OVC for the owner. OVC would then mail a letter or certificate to the vet or clinic for the owner where they could obtain a copy. Unless the breeder can present copies showing "pass" they are not considered a clearance as there is no database to access for OVC. If a Canadian breeder wants to re-submit their x-rays to OFA they can but if done before 24mo. they will only be listed as prelims not a final clearance. K9data is not a research database for certified clearances for any test. Visual copies for each certificate would have to be seen. It has been from about October 2011 OVC is no longer a valid source for hip and elbow clearances. The puppy buyer should have the right to see the actual copy of the certificate of clearance and they should not accept k9data listing of their dog as a substitute for the copy. When I help someone do research I follow the same rules for each breeders. I am not picking out anyone in particular and I am not stating if they can or can not present the documents. I will state what I see and and then I will give them advice of what else they need to see from the breeder.


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## goldenas (Apr 8, 2009)

Hey Everyone... Look I have had a litter of puppies stolen from my property. It was one of the worse things that I had to go through and I never want to go through it again. 
Clearances have been photo shopped... It is not common practice but it has been done!
I do my clearances!! And I take a lot of pride in the puppies that I produce!
Like I said to the OP... I would be more than happy to show you our clearances when you come by for a visit...I am not hiding anything. But because of some posts on the forum she automatically thought I was trying to hide something. Her decision was made and people confirmed it because of something that in the grand scheme of things doesn’t matter… clearances are done and will be shown to you. 
If doing things this way makes me a terrible breeder then so be it!... I know what I do and previous puppy buyers also know what I do!!!
If you feel comfortable putting your information out there on the www then that is your decision to make. Myself after someone coming in to my property and taking that litter... My personal information will not go out over the internet to someone I know nothing about. This is my opinion, my personal information and my decision… and yes to me my clearances are very personal… anything to do with my dogs is very personal to me. 
There are a lot of really nice dogs out there that are owned by breeders that agree with my thinking, and if people don't contact them than that is the buyer loss...and again I feel like it is that breeders decision to make… 
As for the comment above that a forum educates puppy buyers. That one does make me think!
There is a lot of comments on forums (again doesn’t matter which type of forum) that should never be put out there because the people making them have not seen things first hand and are very quick to judge others. With any comment made online I always wonder if the people making them would say it directly to the people face that they are talking about. 
One the other hand this forum can be a great educational tool for breeders and puppy buyers. If it is done with integrity and professionalism! It is not always done this way now is it!
And again these are just my thoughts, my opinion and I am sure there is someone out there that will slam me to the ground for having them. This is fine they too are entitled to their opinion and their thoughts also. 
I wish everyone the best in their adventures in finding a breeder and yes do make sure they have their clearances, do make sure the puppies a healthy, do make sure that the puppies are kept in a clean area and are giving the attention that they need to make them the best dog they can be. Just don’t limit yourself to the www. There is a lot more to life that was it on the internet.


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## goldenas (Apr 8, 2009)

sterregold said:


> Mainly, because we are an independent country with our own independent national breed club who is the arbiter of the standard of breeding practices for *our* members. Our COE says the testing of the big four is to be done, outlines the acceptable registries and/or qualifications of the testers, and requires that reports to be made available to buyers. Even the GRCA COE states that dogs GRCA members breed to in other countries are to have clearances consistent with *that* country's COE. Our COE is currently under discussion for revision in light of emerging health information, including not just PU issues, but also the now 3 forms of PRA testable by DNA. But until a new one is published and voted on by our membership (that is the process required by our constitution), it is the standard in OUR country.
> 
> (Beware, Canadians get very testy when it comes to issues of sovereignty. Especially in the centenary of 1812!)


 
hahah ok that was good!!


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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

kdowningxc said:


> Calling an eye exam a CERF clearance is really inaccurate, its only CERF if it has been submitted, otherwise its just an eye exam.


Actually, I'm not quite sure that's accurate. It is definitely the case with OFA If you don't submit your hips elbows, you only have an x ray that your vet said "looks good," not an OFA clearance. If you don't submit the heart, you have a cardiologist report, not an OFA clearance. But with CERF, once the exam is documented on the specific Canine Eye Registry Foundation form, I believe it is a CERF. I learned from one of the the knowledgable breeders on this forum not too long ago that the opthamologist submits the form to CERF even if the owner does not. It won't be part of the public database in that case, but it is still used for statistical analysis within the breeds. 

By contrast, each year when I bring Jersey for his CERF, Ozzie gets an "eye exam" too. It is done on a far more simple form than Jersey's and the information is not sent into the registry in any way, shape or form. In a basic eye exam, I don't believe the doctor spends the time to discuss with the client what constitutes a "breeder's option" and what would be a "disqualifying fault." I suppose they might... but I more strongly suspect that the doctor would convince the person that they needed to get a full CERF exam if it is their intention to breed the dog (but that part is purely speculation).

So I don't believe it is disingenuous or dishonest for a breeder to state they have a CERF on their dog even if they have not sent it in. At least that's my basic understanding of the process anyway... I welcome anyone who knows more about it to correct me if I'm wrong.

Julie, Jersey and Oz


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## golden_eclipse (Apr 1, 2011)

Jersey's Mom said:


> Actually, I'm not quite sure that's accurate. It is definitely the case with OFA If you don't submit your hips elbows, you only have an x ray that your vet said "looks good," not an OFA clearance. If you don't submit the heart, you have a cardiologist report, not an OFA clearance. But with CERF, once the exam is documented on the specific Canine Eye Registry Foundation form, I believe it is a CERF. I learned from one of the the knowledgable breeders on this forum not too long ago that the opthamologist submits the form to CERF even if the owner does not. It won't be part of the public database in that case, but it is still used for statistical analysis within the breeds.
> 
> By contrast, each year when I bring Jersey for his CERF, Ozzie gets an "eye exam" too. It is done on a far more simple form than Jersey's and the information is not sent into the registry in any way, shape or form. In a basic eye exam, I don't believe the doctor spends the time to discuss with the client what constitutes a "breeder's option" and what would be a "disqualifying fault." I suppose they might... but I more strongly suspect that the doctor would convince the person that they needed to get a full CERF exam if it is their intention to breed the dog (but that part is purely speculation).
> 
> ...



CERF is a registry, the eye exam is done by an ACVO diplomat, they are not one and the same, and calling one the other is inaccurate...Sending in an eye exam done by a ACVO diplomat on a CERF registry form and paying the registry cost AND the dog passes, the exam becomes a CERF number, and is registered, before that they are simply eye exams, and nothing has been determined whether the dog is a breeding candidate or not, other than what the ACVO diplomat says (which for the record half of them have no problem with JC's and wouldn't deny a breeder from considering breeding a dog with JC's, but CERF fails them...there is a difference). Breeders options are not crystal clear, some cataracts pass and some don't, the potential buyer would likely not know the difference. 


For the record, I am a Canadian citizen (duel US citizen), and I personally think requiring people to submit eye clearances is a good thing, wondering why Canada has yet to require it, does not make me a bad person, only a person who sees how a problem can be helped and that breeders often do and should take it upon themselves to strive to higher standards to help the breed and their breeding program. 

Though again, I never said someone shouldn't go to a breeder who hasn't submitted, them, but did say the BUYER should ask BEFORE buying. Why a person doesn't submit them is really their business, but a buyer should be aware that excuses like I'm afraid of them being Photoshopped are not valid reasons for not getting copies of the clearances. And having them on an online database alleviates any confusion and allows for health research to be done by breeders internationally. Since Canadian pedigrees are closely tied to American Pedigrees wouldn't it make sense that we openly communicate about health issues in our pedigrees. 

Having a personal preference to standards a breeder should be held to are perfectly acceptable, I shouldn't be attacked for voicing my opinion, and I think many people on this board have shared similar sentiments about eye and heart clearances being sent in.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

I tend to agree with Kim on this. Just because the eye clearance was on a CERF form, it is not CERF until you, the owner send it in. Just like if a cardiologist fills out the OFA cardiac form and you do not send it to OFA. Or my biggest pet peeve...OFA thyroid, it is not OFA unless you do the specific submittal where the serum has to be sent on ice....etc.


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## Gold.T.O (Oct 10, 2012)

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## Jersey's Mom (Nov 25, 2007)

As usual, I stand corrected, LOL. Good explanations!

Julie, Jersey and Oz

PS~ kdowningxc: I don't know if the last line of your post was directed toward me, but I in no way attacked you. I gave an opinion and was given better information by you and Sally's Mom about the situation. Give and take, that's all. For the record, I agree with you that clearances should be sent in to their appropriate registries. All of them.


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## Millie'sMom (Sep 7, 2012)

goldenas said:


> Hey Everyone... Look I have had a litter of puppies stolen from my property. It was one of the worse things that I had to go through and I never want to go through it again.
> 
> Just wondering if any of the other breeders on this forum have had a litter stolen? Also wondering how you protect that from happening to your puppies


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## Gold.T.O (Oct 10, 2012)

I would like to thank you guys for putting so much effort and time into this thread. It was an amazing learning tool. I hope I find my future puppy soon! 

Also, I would like to thank all the breeders who came forward to address the questions and concerns. I strongly feel that you should not be offended by someone doing research before coming to meet you. In my opinion, it shows responsibility. You should feel more comfortable about those future homes who've done their homework and know where to go in case of an emergency. 
I would also like to say that no one in this thread had the intention to insult or offend anyone. 
As I've probably said about a 100 times, I wanted to do full research before I went and met the breeder. That is all this thread was all about. Some of the breeders have taken it personally and IMO, I can't understand what I did wrong. 
Should I not have posted anything in the first place? Ah!

Anyway, thank you so much for all your help guys!


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