# Beware of Promise Land Goldens in Maryland



## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

For any puppy buyers looking into this breeder please proceed with caution if health and ethics are important to you. 

This breeder is and advertises as a Bred with H.E.A.R.T. breeder which means she has agreed to folllow the breeding standards of the Golden Retriever Club of America which can be found here http://cdn.akc.org/Marketplace/Health-Statement/Golden-Retriever.pdf and in the first image below. Based on the puppies she has produced so far this year or plans to produce it is clear she does not honor the standards she is advertising. 

All dogs below are either the sire or dam of a previous, current or planed litter.

It is sad that this breeder has a stud dog with all health certifications in place and recorded so they clearly know what to test, when and how but choose not to on most of the their dogs. Also the sire they are currently using the most often has elbow dysplasia.


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## cwag (Apr 25, 2017)

Thanks. It is sad that anyone would risk producing puppies with painful elbow displasia.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Am I reading this correctly???? She is breeding dogs that are PRA carriers! I may be overly sensitive to the eye issues but honestly, why would you breed a dog that carries a PRA gene?! 
Maybe I just don't understand breeding... maybe this isn't a factor if the other dog is clear but being the recipient of a dog with genetic eye issues because of poor breeding practices really pushes my buttons. What's the point of getting this information if you aren't going to use it?

So all you breeders out there tell me if I'm overreacting.


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

I'm a little lost. How did you see this one has dysplastic elbows? I don't see elbows at all on this dog. Am I reading it wrong? 

https://www.ofa.org/advanced-search?f=sr&appnum=1935221 

@Puddleseverywhere - my understanding reRA and other DNA tested things is that a carrier can be bred to a clear and the worst you'll get is another carrier. But if a carrier is bred to a carrier or an affected, you'll get not just carriers but have a 25%+ chance of getting an affected


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Thanks Brave, I'll take a deep breath.
Generally if they have hips and no elbows it is because they failed but breeder didn't want to post the failed exam.


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## Brave (Oct 26, 2012)

puddles everywhere said:


> Thanks Brave, I'll take a deep breath.
> Generally if they have hips and no elbows it is because they failed but breeder didn't want to post the failed exam.


I thought that might be the assumption but on the other screenshots it just says "missing elbows" so I didn't know if there was something I wasn't seeing that showed dysplastic elbows.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Brave said:


> I'm a little lost. How did you see this one has dysplastic elbows? I don't see elbows at all on this dog. Am I reading it wrong?



It is disclosed on K9Data but not in a way most puppy buyers would understand. 
Pedigree: Solid As A Rock Freedom At Swanavly


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

puddles everywhere said:


> Am I reading this correctly???? She is breeding dogs that are PRA carriers! I may be overly sensitive to the eye issues but honestly, why would you breed a dog that carries a PRA gene?!
> Maybe I just don't understand breeding...


Yep, over reaction but I understand where you are coming from with the challenges you have been facing. 

These DNA rests are Mendelian genetics with simple recessive and dominant genes. The normal gene is dominant and the PRA affected gene is recesive. That means carrier and even affected dogs could be breed responsibly with a clear/normal dog with no fear of producing an affected puppy. The worst you would get is a carrier that does not have the disease themselves but should be bred cautiously. For companion homes normal or carrier are the safe statuses. 

This breeder really likes to bluster that they are like the only one testing this but I don’t know a single peer breeder of mine that breeds without these tests or if the bitch is untested they choose a stud who is and is clear on everything. Unfortunately a lot of less than reputable breeders have taken is great tool and twisted it. Because DNA status can be managed in breedings without the need to remove a carrier or affected dogs, many now skip the very important hip, elbow, heart and eye exam tests and focus on making DNA sound like it it the end all be all of testing instead of another tool in a good breeders tool belt that it is.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Thanks for doing all that work. 
This almost sounds like that 'when this test is available' guy- who was just doing DNA and not elbows. Buck Fam Farm.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

LJack said:


> It is disclosed on K9Data but not in a way most puppy buyers would understand.
> Pedigree: Solid As A Rock Freedom At Swanavly


And look at the change history- she originally put him at 0/0 more than one time. 
It is so easy to just follow the rules. Follow them and take the risk of having to throw a dog out of the breeding program- IF you love the breed, that is.


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## puddles everywhere (May 13, 2016)

Thanks LJack... breeder trust issues I guess. I've learned that a breeder that spends this much time defending bad decisions is usually hiding something. 

I had to giggle when this lady posted it takes 6 to 8 weeks to get the testing done so she couldn't possibly do it on everyone. I had the golden panel run on my girl and it only took 2 weeks from the time I ordered the test kit until I received results. 

So choices are get another testing place or she has too many dogs?

Thanks for all this work, hope people and maybe this breeder ... can learn from it.


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## Promiselandgoldens (12 mo ago)

cwag said:


> Thanks. It is sad that anyone would risk producing puppies with painful elbow displasia.


Someone sent this to me to clarify. 
Missing information for those that aren’t aware. Years ago OFA didn’t list foreign registers exams for hips or elbows on there database. They also didn’t except Pennhip exams which are more accurate than the OFA. With the progression in time the Ofa changed due to miss information. You can know register Foreign Register Clearances and Pennhip results to create a more open data base for all. I am a member of the Golden Retriever Club of America and they informed me of the change. After speaking with Ofa they have changed. Looking at older dogs on any person website doesn’t mean that tests weren’t done many breeders for a time began looking for more accurate testing away from Ofa hips. If a breeder submitted to FCI, BVA, Pennhip they would not show up on a OFA database. With many breeders searching out more accurate exams for a time got away from OFA. Then OFA made a compromise they began excepting there competitions hips and elbow exams. It is not free but OFA began creating a database for all companies. This is a fantastic change because it creates a place where if you had a second opinion it can also be listed. Like elbow for instance you can get a 0 from one company and a grade 1 from another. Different opinions two companies. If a breeder doesn’t show a certain clearances they may have used a different company it in no way means it wasn’t done. Now which company opinion to use is the question. In Dilan case he had 0 elbows by FCI. He then went over a 6 feet fence, landed on concrete and had a elbow injury. He likes the ladies and was determined. I talked it over with orthopedic even though not genetic we switched. I believe the injury did leave a grade 1 in elbow from coming down on it to get to the female in heat. Problem do use the film before trauma or after. Hence a breeder choice. Such as many used BVA, this showed each individual hip score so a breeder had a better idea of each hip. This was said to be more accurate at the time than Ofa you wouldn’t have been able to show that. Pennhip which is the most accurate now didn’t have a open database at all for public to see. If you turn in OFA with the Pennhip they will know list on there sight. This is for newer breeders so they can change there own breeding program. It would have nice to do back then to form a program while using different methods. As someone who has bred Golden’s now for 15 years. Also I have learned the difference between a trauma elbow and wether it is genetic to pass to puppies. A xray can’t tell if puppy developed from young genetic or a dog worked to hard developed it. That is the point of us xraying dogs hips and elbows under 1 year and at 2 years. I have seen lines produce Grade 3 elbows at one year of age to eliminate. If you wait until 2 years you can’t differentiate genetic and trauma. You can also have a CT done to see inside joint of elbow to see if Dysplasia is real or not. It has greater detail than a xray and you can do 3 dimensional which shows you damage. Just because someone says not done and doesn’t shows on one database that doesn’t mean not done.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

If the elbows are so weak that living a normal dog life would be trauma enough to injure them, that is concerning. OFA only certifies over the age of two for a reason. 

Considering that breeds that often do concussive sports like agility, protection work, obedience and such can and do clear OFA at or after 2, always calls into doubt the ole injury excuse. Also OFA will certify at 2 a dog that does have an issue due to an injury if it is properly documented. If that is lacking, there can be not definitive connection the the injury specifically caused the dysplasia. It could easily have been there was a hereditary or congenital weakness already at play or dysplasia was already developing when the accident happened.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Promiselandgoldens said:


> Someone sent this to me to clarify.
> Missing information for those that aren’t aware. Years ago OFA didn’t list foreign registers exams for hips or elbows on there database. They also didn’t except Pennhip exams which are more accurate than the OFA. With the progression in time the Ofa changed due to miss information. You can know register Foreign Register Clearances and Pennhip results to create a more open data base for all. I am a member of the Golden Retriever Club of America and they informed me of the change. After speaking with Ofa they have changed. Looking at older dogs on any person website doesn’t mean that tests weren’t done many breeders for a time began looking for more accurate testing away from Ofa hips. If a breeder submitted to FCI, BVA, Pennhip they would not show up on a OFA database. With many breeders searching out more accurate exams for a time got away from OFA. Then OFA made a compromise they began excepting there competitions hips and elbow exams. It is not free but OFA began creating a database for all companies. This is a fantastic change because it creates a place where if you had a second opinion it can also be listed. Like elbow for instance you can get a 0 from one company and a grade 1 from another. Different opinions two companies. If a breeder doesn’t show a certain clearances they may have used a different company it in no way means it wasn’t done. Now which company opinion to use is the question. In Dilan case he had 0 elbows by FCI. He then went over a 6 feet fence, landed on concrete and had a elbow injury. He likes the ladies and was determined. I talked it over with orthopedic even though not genetic we switched. I believe the injury did leave a grade 1 in elbow from coming down on it to get to the female in heat. Problem do use the film before trauma or after. Hence a breeder choice. Such as many used BVA, this showed each individual hip score so a breeder had a better idea of each hip. This was said to be more accurate at the time than Ofa you wouldn’t have been able to show that. Pennhip which is the most accurate now didn’t have a open database at all for public to see. If you turn in OFA with the Pennhip they will know list on there sight. This is for newer breeders so they can change there own breeding program. It would have nice to do back then to form a program while using different methods. As someone who has bred Golden’s now for 15 years. Also I have learned the difference between a trauma elbow and wether it is genetic to pass to puppies. A xray can’t tell if puppy developed from young genetic or a dog worked to hard developed it. That is the point of us xraying dogs hips and elbows under 1 year and at 2 years. I have seen lines produce Grade 3 elbows at one year of age to eliminate. If you wait until 2 years you can’t differentiate genetic and trauma. You can also have a CT done to see inside joint of elbow to see if Dysplasia is real or not. It has greater detail than a xray and you can do 3 dimensional which shows you damage. Just because someone says not done and doesn’t shows on one database that doesn’t mean not done.


OFA has accepted verifiable foreign and PH clearances for listing for well over the years you have been breeding. So dk on your info but as long as that A/A on Dilan for instance was submitted, and OFA could verify it, it would have been listed. But on that- A/A implies excellence.. .yet his PH is .46, .42.....just a year later from his A/A... you probably know that .46/.42 not excellent.. 
One can make a 12 mo old FCI out to be adequate but you are breeding in the US. And your dog has ED. Whether it is ED by trauma or not, and whether a sporting dog should be able to withstand minimal trauma could be argued. What is true is you do not know his ED was caused by trauma because he was not fully developed back when as a puppy he had FCI elbow done.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Prism Goldens said:


> OFA has accepted verifiable foreign and PH clearances for listing for well over the years you have been breeding. So dk on your info but as long as that A/A on Dilan for instance was submitted, and OFA could verify it, it would have been listed. But on that- A/A implies excellence.. .yet his PH is .46, .42.....just a year later from his A/A... you probably know that .46/.42 not excellent..
> One can make a 12 mo old FCI out to be adequate but you are breeding in the US. And your dog has ED. Whether it is ED by trauma or not, and whether a sporting dog should be able to withstand minimal trauma could be argued. What is true is you do not know his ED was caused by trauma because he was not fully developed back when as a puppy he had FCI elbow done.


To add to this, when you have a breeder who is fixed on elbow dysplasia (in a breeding dog) being caused by injury.... a pet owner needs to be warned that this is a breeder who will blame any resultant ED in puppies produced on the owners allowing injuries. There will not be any admission by the breeder that the ED was hereditary. Just fyi.

Other thing to somewhat keep in mind is if this dog was purchased as a 12 month old. I'm assume he was not imported as a puppy since the breeder touts a CH on the dog that clearly isn't AKC. I would be curious as to whether the pristine clearances that the dog had as a pup were legit. 

Whatever people say about OFA - Typically the people most unhappy with OFA are those whose dogs failed clearances. That's something to keep in mind whenever this subject comes up. Those people whose dogs have cleared hips and elbows and they are basically clearing more than failing generation after generation.... they are pretty happy with OFA and you do not see them participating in the quibble fests.


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## Promiselandgoldens (12 mo ago)

LJack said:


> If the elbows are so weak that living a normal dog life would be trauma enough to injure them, that is concerning. OFA only certifies over the age of two for a reason.
> 
> Considering that breeds that often do concussive sports like agility, protection work, obedience and such can and do clear OFA at or after 2, always calls into doubt the ole injury excuse. Also OFA will certify at 2 a dog that does have an issue due to an injury if it is properly documented. If that is lacking, there can be not definitive connection the the injury specifically caused the dysplasia. It could easily have been there was a hereditary or congenital weakness already at play or dysplasia was already developing when the accident happened.


Dogs and people aren't that different. Any trauma wether it be animal or human can develop arthritis. My Orthopedic would tell you if it is found on both side it is normally genetic. If it is seen on one side it is more likely to be an injury especially if there was a trauma. Since I work with human orthopedics and dog orthopedics they seem to have the same opinion. Both types of orthopedics have told me the same thing. Which differs from yours. I am going to stick with the medical experts who read the films. I am going with there medical opinion due to that is there speciality. I also believe that a human who falls 6 feet to the concrete can also develop problems and arthritis in that elbow joint. Since I have seen so many times on people. I go with the radiologist. Especially after seeing patients for 30 years at the hospital while working with the physicians.


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## LJack (Aug 10, 2012)

Promiselandgoldens said:


> I am going to stick with the medical experts who read the films.


I do too, they are called OFA. If a dog doesn’t pass OFA will not give a health certification, it is that easy.

Great stud dogs with actual passing health certifications and titles earned in the US as adults are a dime a dozen. There really isn’t a reason this boy needs to be bred if health and quality are the goal. If money and convenience is the goal then at least that choice makes sense. 🤷‍♀️


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## Promiselandgoldens (12 mo ago)

That boy you don't like. Has produce some of the finest therapy dogs. We have had seeing eye from his puppies, Seizure alert dogs from his puppies. Diabetic dogs from his puppies. He even produced for a 17 year old that her brain doesn't tell her legs to walk. He did a stabilization dog for her. His puppies are now starting a program for wounded veterans that are handicap. I am actually so proud of his puppies and how they have came out. So although you would have tossed him out. All the handicap people who have received his puppies really appreciate him and there service dog. He has a puppy being trained for and autistic person out of his recent litter. His sensitivity and instinct for a person is amazing. He to me is worth so much more than any money. His puppies have succeeded beyond my own expectations. You see one thing I see the greatest he has given back to the handicap for service dogs in the USA. I have trainers contacting me all over the USA to come here and purchase a puppy from his litters to train. For a dog that you see as a failure others would disagree with you. There service dogs are worth there wait in gold to them.


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## Promiselandgoldens (12 mo ago)

See you are incorrect it isn't all about money. It is also about helping those with disabilities. That I can say without a doubt is the best thing I have ever accomplished with breeding. Owner of Promise Land Goldens,


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Promiselandgoldens said:


> That boy you don't like. Has produce some of the finest therapy dogs. We have had seeing eye from his puppies, Seizure alert dogs from his puppies. Diabetic dogs from his puppies. He even produced for a 17 year old that her brain doesn't tell her legs to walk. He did a stabilization dog for her. His puppies are now starting a program for wounded veterans that are handicap. I am actually so proud of his puppies and how they have came out. So although you would have tossed him out. All the handicap people who have received his puppies really appreciate him and there service dog. He has a puppy being trained for and autistic person out of his recent litter. His sensitivity and instinct for a person is amazing. He to me is worth so much more than any money. His puppies have succeeded beyond my own expectations. You see one thing I see the greatest he has given back to the handicap for service dogs in the USA. I have trainers contacting me all over the USA to come here and purchase a puppy from his litters to train. For a dog that you see as a failure others would disagree with you. There service dogs are worth there wait in gold to them.


Where are their clearances though? When you look him up on OFA, it appears there are only 3 offspring listed. Of which, only 1 of the 3 has clearances.


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## Emmdenn (Jun 5, 2018)

Don’t you think it’s kind of a disservice to those special needs people who NEED and DEPEND on their dogs to be producing dogs from a sire with failing orthopedic clearances??!


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## Promiselandgoldens (12 mo ago)

I don't understand. Why you would think service dog need clearances. Not all dogs are breeding dogs. Chai is the only one I still own from him. I don't own any others. I believe Tiki is stilling used as a seizure alert dog. I believe the other is still being used with a diabetic person and signals when the person sugar gets off. 

Also as you know he was imported. His lines are from Europe and wouldn't be shown on OFA. His lineage and their clearances would be shown with FCI or BVA. Not on our OFA site. LOL. So you would be aware that you would have to look under the other companies to see all his lineage. He is not an America bred dog. That is why you can't see it. 

Chai is our breeding dog the one we kept. I still own her and she is one our site.

That is what she scored. Yes she is his daughter. 

Call Name: Chai

AKC: SS03997103 

DOB: Feb 2, 2018

Heart: Normal
OFA-GR-ACA4946/19F-VPI
Eye: Normal
OFA-GR-EYE14560/42F-VPI (09/21)
Hips: Pennhip - R .34/ L .34
Hips rates in the tightest 10% of the breed with PennHip
OFA-Good-GR-128321G24F-VPI
Elbows: Normal
OFA-GR-EL47872F24-VPI
Patellas: Normal
OFA-GR-PA1853/19F/P-VPI
Thyroid: Normal
OFA-GR-TH3840/19F-VPI
Dentation: Full
OFA-GR-DE924/19F-VPI
Prcd-PRA: Clear
OFA-GR-PRA1004/2F-PI
Pra1: Carrier
OFA-GR-GR1-973/2F-PI-CAR
Pra2: Clear
GR-GR2-801/2F-PI
Degenerative Myelopathy: Clear
OFA-GR-DM665/2F-PI
COI 10 Generation: 5.03%
COI 12 Generation: 9.68 %
Ichthyosis: Carrier 
OFA-GR-ICH1047/2F-PI-CAR
NCL: Clear
OFA-GR-CL5-2275/20F-PI

Weight: 54 lbs Height: 19 inches

Chic Qualified: 147449

We plan on doing others in the next few years to keep his lines going. He is getting older.


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## Promiselandgoldens (12 mo ago)

Emmdenn said:


> Don’t you think it’s kind of a disservice to those special needs people who NEED and DEPEND on their dogs to be producing dogs from a sire with failing orthopedic clearances??!


Not at all. Since I am still going with my orthopedic recommendation and to breed him. The trauma caused the damage. Why would you judge a dog based on one thing. You are saying ever dog is bad with grade 1. You are aware that some breeds like the Great Dane have grade 1. This is due to the larger the chest size. The more weight is put on the front of the dog creating the Grade 1 often on both elbows. You can breed incorrect and use two dogs that are totally normal elbows but both have huge chests. There offspring will develop Grade 1 elbows due to the weight distribution.

Did you follow the Morrison Foundation study on hips of dogs. If you are unaware the Morrison Animal Foundation is the largest research center in the USA for animal health. They re-did the study done in Europe on hips of large breeds. They found the same results as the Europeans did. The more angulation that was bred into the dogs the hips became worse. This was due to weight distribution and the way the dog carried it. This should not only for hips but elbows. The study was done on Great Danes, Labs, Goldens. Rottweilers extra.
So even though you take two dogs that are normal. There body builds can create a abnormal puppy. There is more to breeding than just normal test results. This was proven but them. 

So the skill comes from more than just having two normal dogs. If a breeder doesn't understand weight distribution they can actually create elbow and hip problems in any breeding. So you are assuming that all pairs normal will produce balanced passing offspring. This is not true. Lori


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Promiselandgoldens said:


> I don't understand. Why you would think service dog need clearances.


That's pretty convenient when you have bred a dog who failed his elbows.

What is Morrison Foundation?


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## Promiselandgoldens (12 mo ago)

Prism Goldens said:


> OFA has accepted verifiable foreign and PH clearances for listing for well over the years you have been breeding. So dk on your info but as long as that A/A on Dilan for instance was submitted, and OFA could verify it, it would have been listed. But on that- A/A implies excellence.. .yet his PH is .46, .42.....just a year later from his A/A... you probably know that .46/.42 not excellent..
> One can make a 12 mo old FCI out to be adequate but you are breeding in the US. And your dog has ED. Whether it is ED by trauma or not, and whether a sporting dog should be able to withstand minimal trauma could be argued. What is true is you do not know his ED was caused by trauma because he was not fully developed back when as a puppy he had FCI elbow done.


Yes I am aware of the sliding scale of Pennhip and that score is a Good.

I have no idea where you got the information that A/A through FCI means excellent in hips. It does not.

Each company is different . You have to understand how to read each company results. Wether it be Pennhip, OFA or FCI. The overseas reading of FCI are different from the OFA's. After 15 years of working with the different companies. 

This is the FCI's

A dog that receives a A/A will either score a Good or Excellent with the OFA when redone.
A dog that scores a B/B will come out with a Fair or Mild Hip Dysplasia with OFA when redone. 
A dog that comes out with a C/C will have a mild to moderate Hip Dysplasia.

I would never expect all A/A hip to read excellent. That is not how the FCI scores. His films would fit in the way the FCI scores. So they would match the OFA results and Pennhip I had received on him. There wasn't any discrepancy between the three companies at all. They all said the same exact thing to me. Not sure where A/A means excellent comes from????

As far as elbows a genetic abnormal dog because I have purchased some unfortunately. Will come out at 9 months to 12 months with grading. I have seen 1 year old dogs with Grade 3 elbows. That is why FCI does at one year old. You can also see hip dysplasia with OFA at 1 year. I have seen severe hip problems at age 1 that you can absolutely say genetic. That is the purpose of prelims. My Pennhips the we have done at 16 weeks have come almost exact when redone at 2 years old. I don't pay for everything to be posted with OFA but I let vets borrow my dogs for there own knowledge to redo and see how accurate the test were. It cost me nothing to let vets re exam my dogs and sedate and do xrays it also helps me grow as a breeder and understand. 

I redo ever dog I get from over seas.


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## Promiselandgoldens (12 mo ago)

Megora said:


> That's pretty convenient when you have bred a dog who failed his elbows.
> 
> What is Morrison Foundation?


The Morrison Animal Foundation is the largest research center in the USA on animals period. Veterinarian Near Me in 48135 | Morrison Animal Hospital
It studies all animals. It collect's data from vets all over the USA. It studies and they do tests to confirm real or not. It is a great place to learn on health of animals. If you are a part of the Golden Retriever Club of American. The Spaying and Neutering of Goldens as adults to reduce health problems was done at the Morrison Animal Foundation. The GRCA follows their recommendations if you aren't aware. That is where the parent clubs of the USA guidelines come from. Lori


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## Promiselandgoldens (12 mo ago)

Megora said:


> That's pretty convenient when you have bred a dog who failed his elbows.
> 
> What is Morrison Foundation?


I didn't bred him so you. I purchased him from over seas. I have bred him and create Chai. She is my breedings. Not him.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Promiselandgoldens said:


> I didn't bred him so you. I purchased him from over seas. I have bred him and create Chai. She is my breedings. Not him.


What?


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## Promiselandgoldens (12 mo ago)

Megora said:


> What?


I thought you said I bred Dilan I didn't. Maybe I read wrong.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

I suspect you mean Morris Animal Foundation, not Morrison Animal Hospital near you.
Regardless, neither create the GRCA guidelines.
I wasn't saying one cannot see HD or ED @ 1YO- I was questioning that _you _know whether a condition is NOT genetic- which you do not. Just because your puppy passed less stringent FCI @ 12 mo of age does not mean he didn't have a genetic ED.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Promiselandgoldens said:


> Not at all. Since I am still going with my orthopedic recommendation and to breed him. The trauma caused the damage. Why would you judge a dog based on one thing. You are saying ever dog is bad with grade 1. You are aware that some breeds like the Great Dane have grade 1. This is due to the larger the chest size. The more weight is put on the front of the dog creating the Grade 1 often on both elbows. You can breed incorrect and use two dogs that are totally normal elbows but both have huge chests. There offspring will develop Grade 1 elbows due to the weight distribution.
> 
> Did you follow the Morrison Foundation study on hips of dogs. If you are unaware the Morrison Animal Foundation is the largest research center in the USA for animal health. They re-did the study done in Europe on hips of large breeds. They found the same results as the Europeans did. The more angulation that was bred into the dogs the hips became worse. This was due to weight distribution and the way the dog carried it. This should not only for hips but elbows. The study was done on Great Danes, Labs, Goldens. Rottweilers extra.
> So even though you take two dogs that are normal. There body builds can create a abnormal puppy. There is more to breeding than just normal test results. This was proven but them.
> ...


So much here that is inaccurate, and makes no sense...
plus the 19" bitch is WAY out of standard.
The only sentence in this whole post that's correct is that normal pairs will not always produce normal. HD is likely a threshold condition and we can only hedge bets using any eval to guess at what will come of it, outside of environmental influences. I can see you really want to imagine you have it all figured out but using a dog w ED (and clearances ARE important especially for SDs, since people rely on them to be whole and healthy) increases your odds of making ED tremendously.


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## Promiselandgoldens (12 mo ago)

Prism Goldens said:


> So much here that is inaccurate, and makes no sense...
> plus the 19" bitch is WAY out of standard.
> The only sentence in this whole post that's correct is that normal pairs will always produce normal. HD is likely a threshold condition and we can only hedge bets using any eval to guess at what will come of it, outside of environmental influences. I can see you really want to imagine you have it all figured out but using a dog w ED (and clearances ARE important especially for SDs, since people rely on them to be whole and healthy) increases your odds of making ED tremendously.


The only sentence in this whole post that's correct is that normal pairs will always produce normal????

Normal pairs don't always produce normal. Have you not screened entire litters too see and chose from. There is always a range in a litter. I know many breeders that screen entire litters. Any litter due to genetics can have a flaw in the litter. A puppy could have a heart defect, elbow defect, hip defect, eye problem it was born with. 

If normal parents always produced normal babies. There would never be a child born with a birth defect.

I will give you that she is on the petite size at 19 inches instead of 21 and half inches. Which is one of the reasons I like her so much. She is smaller for her puppies to do EMS work and one of the reasons I picked her for therapy work. I didn't bred her for a show ring or an agility dog. She was bred with the thought for her puppies to do therapy. 

NO one has all genetics figured out. I wish. I have had to study each type of exam company to figure out Pennhip (I feel most accurate and best ( You have to microchip the dog and you can't cheat by switching dogs that are not micro chipped, they also give you each hip individual), BVA ( I like next due to they give you information on each hip), OFA 
( They are good but to easy to cheat and use a excellent hip with great elbows under different names, since you don't have to identify dog with a microchip- I feel they should get ride of NOPI- Causing all dogs to be done under microchip), FCI (I like the least due to they aren't as clear in the reading. Like A/A hips).

I have read and read to understand the exams. To pick the most accurate exam plus to do comparison with different companies. My dogs go through more than one company to be looked at. This gives you more than one doctors opinion. Elbows also get looked at by Cat Scan if the reading is off. I don't just use OFA by itself. The dogs also have xrays done more than once in there lifetime at 2 years old. 

So yes since I use more than one doctors opinion and also more than one company to check them. They get check at different ages as well. I feel clearances are important. I could just do a inexpensive OFA at 2 years of age, much much cheaper on the dogs. Then rechecking them and using more than one company. However I wouldn't get the entire picture of each breeding dog and there growth and developed at stages. 

All our dogs go thru the same protocol.


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Yes- I left out a word- but since I was referring to your assertion it was probably obvious to most readers I left the word 'not' out.

I appreciate all your study, I really do. What I can't get is why you'd breed a dysplastic dog. ED is so painful, so expensive and if you really are able to study and learn, why would you use him at stud? If you SAW IT HAPPEN you'd have stopped him from climbing the fence. And if you didn't see it happen, you're guessing and making an excuse for a dog being used. It's just not a believable tale, and it hurts this breed. ALL Goldens would make good therapy dogs and he has nothing on OFA in offspring to show he's not producing problems. Couple this choice with using a bitch who's 2.5 inches too small and it has a feel of 'study yes but study to find some reason not to toss an animal who either is health risk or out of standard which we all ought to be aiming for. Study can't make you know more than all the experts. It is so disappointing- since it's obvious as well that you have the ability to do a decent job if you want to in a field of subpar ECGR breeders. Just a huge disappointment.


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## formydawgs (Jun 19, 2020)

Any chance there's an explanation for breeding a Frenchie and a Golden? A French Retriever, really?


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## GoldenDude (Nov 5, 2016)

formydawgs said:


> Any chance there's an explanation for breeding a Frenchie and a Golden? A French Retriever, really?
> View attachment 891368
> View attachment 891369


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## Emmdenn (Jun 5, 2018)

Just when you think you've seen it all....


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## Emmdenn (Jun 5, 2018)

GRCA member too....


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Fancier---- well, that's a hoot. 

Here at least to have a fancier license one must prove one shows one's dogs. 
I think this county in MD just cares about their space: property size of 25,000 square feet to keep 5 or 6 dogs and a minimum of 40,000 square feet to keep 7 dogs and 5k more per add'l dog.


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## Carolyn A (Jan 22, 2021)

A French Retriever??? Someone has intentionally done this, and is selling for $1700? A cross between a French Bulldog and a Golden Retriever? I have no words this may be the craziest thing I've ever seen!


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## DblTrblGolden2 (Aug 22, 2018)

Oh Lord!


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## Emmdenn (Jun 5, 2018)

Promiselandgoldens said:


> Someone sent this to me to clarify.
> Missing information for those that aren’t aware. Years ago OFA didn’t list foreign registers exams for hips or elbows on there database. They also didn’t except Pennhip exams which are more accurate than the OFA. With the progression in time the Ofa changed due to miss information. You can know register Foreign Register Clearances and Pennhip results to create a more open data base for all. I am a member of the Golden Retriever Club of America and they informed me of the change. After speaking with Ofa they have changed. Looking at older dogs on any person website doesn’t mean that tests weren’t done many breeders for a time began looking for more accurate testing away from Ofa hips. If a breeder submitted to FCI, BVA, Pennhip they would not show up on a OFA database. With many breeders searching out more accurate exams for a time got away from OFA. Then OFA made a compromise they began excepting there competitions hips and elbow exams. It is not free but OFA began creating a database for all companies. This is a fantastic change because it creates a place where if you had a second opinion it can also be listed. Like elbow for instance you can get a 0 from one company and a grade 1 from another. Different opinions two companies. If a breeder doesn’t show a certain clearances they may have used a different company it in no way means it wasn’t done. Now which company opinion to use is the question. In Dilan case he had 0 elbows by FCI. He then went over a 6 feet fence, landed on concrete and had a elbow injury. He likes the ladies and was determined. I talked it over with orthopedic even though not genetic we switched. I believe the injury did leave a grade 1 in elbow from coming down on it to get to the female in heat. Problem do use the film before trauma or after. Hence a breeder choice. Such as many used BVA, this showed each individual hip score so a breeder had a better idea of each hip. This was said to be more accurate at the time than Ofa you wouldn’t have been able to show that. Pennhip which is the most accurate now didn’t have a open database at all for public to see. If you turn in OFA with the Pennhip they will know list on there sight. This is for newer breeders so they can change there own breeding program. It would have nice to do back then to form a program while using different methods. As someone who has bred Golden’s now for 15 years. Also I have learned the difference between a trauma elbow and wether it is genetic to pass to puppies. A xray can’t tell if puppy developed from young genetic or a dog worked to hard developed it. That is the point of us xraying dogs hips and elbows under 1 year and at 2 years. I have seen lines produce Grade 3 elbows at one year of age to eliminate. If you wait until 2 years you can’t differentiate genetic and trauma. You can also have a CT done to see inside joint of elbow to see if Dysplasia is real or not. It has greater detail than a xray and you can do 3 dimensional which shows you damage. Just because someone says not done and doesn’t shows on one database that doesn’t mean not done.


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## Emmdenn (Jun 5, 2018)

Promiselandgoldens said:


> Dogs and people aren't that different. Any trauma wether it be animal or human can develop arthritis. My Orthopedic would tell you if it is found on both side it is normally genetic. If it is seen on one side it is more likely to be an injury especially if there was a trauma. Since I work with human orthopedics and dog orthopedics they seem to have the same opinion. Both types of orthopedics have told me the same thing. Which differs from yours. I am going to stick with the medical experts who read the films. I am going with there medical opinion due to that is there speciality. I also believe that a human who falls 6 feet to the concrete can also develop problems and arthritis in that elbow joint. Since I have seen so many times on people. I go with the radiologist. Especially after seeing patients for 30 years at the hospital while working with the physicians.


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## Emmdenn (Jun 5, 2018)

Promiselandgoldens said:


> I don't understand. Why you would think service dog need clearances. Not all dogs are breeding dogs. Chai is the only one I still own from him. I don't own any others. I believe Tiki is stilling used as a seizure alert dog. I believe the other is still being used with a diabetic person and signals when the person sugar gets off.
> 
> Also as you know he was imported. His lines are from Europe and wouldn't be shown on OFA. His lineage and their clearances would be shown with FCI or BVA. Not on our OFA site. LOL. So you would be aware that you would have to look under the other companies to see all his lineage. He is not an America bred dog. That is why you can't see it.
> 
> ...


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## Emmdenn (Jun 5, 2018)

Promiselandgoldens said:


> Not at all. Since I am still going with my orthopedic recommendation and to breed him. The trauma caused the damage. Why would you judge a dog based on one thing. You are saying ever dog is bad with grade 1. You are aware that some breeds like the Great Dane have grade 1. This is due to the larger the chest size. The more weight is put on the front of the dog creating the Grade 1 often on both elbows. You can breed incorrect and use two dogs that are totally normal elbows but both have huge chests. There offspring will develop Grade 1 elbows due to the weight distribution.
> 
> Did you follow the Morrison Foundation study on hips of dogs. If you are unaware the Morrison Animal Foundation is the largest research center in the USA for animal health. They re-did the study done in Europe on hips of large breeds. They found the same results as the Europeans did. The more angulation that was bred into the dogs the hips became worse. This was due to weight distribution and the way the dog carried it. This should not only for hips but elbows. The study was done on Great Danes, Labs, Goldens. Rottweilers extra.
> So even though you take two dogs that are normal. There body builds can create a abnormal puppy. There is more to breeding than just normal test results. This was proven but them.
> ...


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## Emmdenn (Jun 5, 2018)

Promiselandgoldens said:


> The only sentence in this whole post that's correct is that normal pairs will always produce normal????
> 
> Normal pairs don't always produce normal. Have you not screened entire litters too see and chose from. There is always a range in a litter. I know many breeders that screen entire litters. Any litter due to genetics can have a flaw in the litter. A puppy could have a heart defect, elbow defect, hip defect, eye problem it was born with.
> 
> ...


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## Prism Goldens (May 27, 2011)

Thank you Emma


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## TruthHurts (8 mo ago)

I can verify that this breeder is not all about the puppies. She is about pumping puppies out as fast as she can and getting them sold as fast as she can. Everything on her website is BS and she posted what everybody wants to hear from a breeder. Like how puppies are “conditioned” to noise and oeoooe but I have personally seen puppies there that SCREAM bloody murder when they are picked up because she has too many puppies at once and can’t keep up with them all. Her prices keeps going up and now I believe she is at almost $4k for a puppy. The dogs on the property (I guess the ones she started breeding with) are all just locked in kennels all day, not played with, never groomed, never gets socialized or played with. I believe in the beginning she had the right intentions, but now it’s just about pumping out as many puppies as possible to make money. A female having 2 litters back to back in my opinion is too much on a female dog and is not fair. It’s disgusting how she allows the older dogs to lay on cold cement floors when they have horrible hip problems to where they can barely make it up stairs. These dogs dogs get the love and attention they deserve. They get locked in kennels once they are not useful to her anymore, they get no human interaction besides whoever feeds them 2x a day and that’s it. Dogs never get out of the kennel to exercise and run around the yard besides when they get out of the kennel. Everything that happens when a person goes from breeding dogs for the love of the breed to just being greedy and pumping out more puppies that she can handle at once. This information came from her VERY VERY VERY close source to her who has tan her kennels for years, which in my opinion, she is just as guilty because she never takes any of the dogs out to play with, go for walks or let them get exercise either. I feel so bad for those sweet dogs.


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