# What am I reinforcing here?



## FeatherRiverSam (Aug 7, 2009)

No coments yet....hmmmm - how about if I throw in a cute picture of my yard, bridge girl and my nephews...:










Pete


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## Abbydabbydo (Jan 31, 2007)

I was waiting for a real dog trainer to chime in. I'll just tell you my experience. Off leash at the trail, I yell come and treat but just sometimes. They come anyway because the possibility is there. If you are yelling treat, that is probably reinforcing behavior he is performing to get the treat. 

But if you are just reinforciing the come command, I don't see it as bad. I'm sure you'll get replies both ways. Woody and kids are darling!


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## Darcy's mom (Jan 11, 2010)

I have no comment but have the same question.


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## AcesWild (Nov 29, 2008)

Because dogs think LINEARLY you are actually reinforcing the coming back to you. Be sure to only give the treat once he is quiet with four paws on the ground.

If you were treating him while he was barking his head off then you would be rewarding that.

I always tell people to think of dogs this way:

If they see a squirrell and run into the street and you are yelling for them to come back, and then when they do you scold them, in THEIR mind you have scolded them for returning. Because in their mind it went "squirrell, chase, fun, went back to mommy/daddy got yelled at"

So they didn't get yelled at for chasing the squirrell because that was the fun, and therefore reinforced, but they got yelled at when they came back, so that was the punishment (less likely to occur again, due to the presentation of something).

That is why it is not possible to potty train a dog by rubbing their nose in their own feces, you really need to catch them in the act and the punishment, unfortunately, does need to be memorable. However having the time and desire to make it so these acts never occur is also important (I am learning this is very strong and important with my Dixon puppy.)


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## jimla (Oct 9, 2008)

Hi Pete,

I think you are on the right track with Woody. Roxy chases cars along our invisible fence boundary. It is about 50 feet back from the road and she has never crossed the boundary.  If I call her before she sees a car, she will return to me. It seems to help if I wrap my arms around her and tell her to calm down.


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

It depends. It's possible that you could create a behavior chain. "Bark at dogs = mom calls me to come = lots of cookies." You'll know this is happening if the barking increases.

Otherwise, using the recall word will either help with the barking or make no difference, other than giving you an effective way to manage (end) the barking when it happens.

For my own dogs, calling them away from the screen door (and rewarding once they got to me) when they'd bark upon hearing a neighbor dog bark was effective in reducing the barking here at home.


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## FeatherRiverSam (Aug 7, 2009)

Abbydabbydo said:


> I was waiting for a real dog trainer to chime in. I'll just tell you my experience. Off leash at the trail, I yell come and treat but just sometimes. They come anyway because the possibility is there. If you are yelling treat, that is probably reinforcing behavior he is performing to get the treat.
> 
> But if you are just reinforciing the come command, I don't see it as bad. I'm sure you'll get replies both ways. Woody and kids are darling!


Thank you Abbydabbydo...That's my first Golden FeatherRiverSam, Sammie, in that picture...Woody is definitely getting the reward for his recall, at least in my minds eye.





Darcy's mom said:


> I have no comment but have the same question.


 
Let's see if we can't get some good recommendations here...




AcesWild said:


> Because dogs think LINEARLY you are actually reinforcing the coming back to you. Be sure to only give the treat once he is quiet with four paws on the ground.
> 
> If you were treating him while he was barking his head off then you would be rewarding that.
> 
> ...


 
AcesWild I was hoping this is the answer I'd get - thank you. The only problem is from my view point I'm really not discouraging Woody from running the fence / barking I'm just giving him a treat for his choice of recall. In his lineal mind there's no reason why he shouldn't stop the chasing or barking - how might I go about solving this challenge?

Pete


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

*The only problem is from my view point I'm really not discouraging Woody from running the fence / barking I'm just giving him a treat for his choice of recall.*

You're discouraging it by not letting him continue to rehearse the unwanted behavior. How long have you been working on it, and what have you noticed so far?


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## AcesWild (Nov 29, 2008)

Don't we reward children for making the right choice? 

The hardest part about barking alerting is that it is hard to stop before it happens. 

Moxie is a big "bark when the doorbell rings" kind of dog. If you watch it's me or the dog then you know that Victoria makes the barking stop before opening the door. 

Sometimes I will hear the door bell and be close enough to Moxie to say leave it before she reacts. Wait a second for her to do so then give her a cookie thereby preventing the barking....however sometimes she chooses to bark anyways and you can see her making the choice, and she gets scolded for that, crated and gets no reward. She also doesn't get to sniff whoever is at the door.

I unfortunately don't see how you could prevent the behavior, but maybe the dog will learn that "ooh I see something in coming, I should run inside and get a treat" or call and praise for coming, but only give a treat if he barks say 2 times, or 1 time...

Then he may learn okay I see something bark once, go get treat. Thereby alerting you (which my boss always yells at me for correcting Moxie because SHE FEELS SAFER when the dogs bark when something is up, and luckily they only bark at perceived intruders).

I hope this helps.

This is merely book knowledge from animal behavior classes and personal experience


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## FeatherRiverSam (Aug 7, 2009)

Thanks Stephanie. I've been working on it a couple of weeks now and this is what I've noticed...Woody will run to the fence full speed barking his head off and when he reaches the fence he'll almost immediately turn around and look at me and as soon as I call him 95% of the time he's back to me like a bullet unless...there's another dog off leash at the fence that he doesn't know....then it takes a bit longer...

(By the way I'm a Dad not a Mom  )

Pete


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## coppers-mom (Jan 9, 2009)

FeatherRiverSam said:


> Woody will run to the fence full speed barking his head off and when he reaches the fence he'll almost immediately turn around and look at me and as soon as I call him 95% of the time he's back to me like a bullet unless...there's another dog off leash at the fence that he doesn't know....then it takes a bit longer...
> 
> (By the way I'm a Dad not a Mom  )
> 
> Pete


I would have responded sooner, but my training abilities are quite limited. I work with horses more than dogs and the mind is very different.

BTW - great picture of your yard, your nephews and Sammy.

The part about Woody looking at you as soon as he reaches the fence does sound like he MIGHT be thinking along the line of "run barking to fence" and get a reward. It seems likely because he looks at you before you call him if I understood correctly.
No advice though, just wanted to point out something I think I perceive.


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## AcesWild (Nov 29, 2008)

Try changing the game....don't call him...see what he does. Just stand there and look. Or call him then when he gets there as him to do something else, or make him go back out there with you to "face" the intruder quietly. Like "okay show me what your barking at. Now okay knock it off."

I have to change the game with Moxie all the time because of how smart she is, and it sounds like you have the same problem with woody!


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## Tailer'sFolks (Feb 27, 2007)

I was thinking you should also prgive Woody a "call" when he's near the fence, but not barking also. Practice, practice, practice! Good Luck...what a great picture of your Angel and your nephews! Woody on the bow looks like a very happy boy!


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## FeatherRiverSam (Aug 7, 2009)

_"The part about Woody looking at you as soon as he reaches the fence does sound like he MIGHT be thinking along the line of "run barking to fence" and get a reward. It seems likely because he looks at you before you call him if I understood correctly.
No advice though, just wanted to point out something I think I perceive." _


Thanks Coppers-Mom...that's pretty much what I perceive as well but I think there's more to it...if he were just after the treat why wait for a distraction of any kind at the fence...why not just run to the fence barking at nothing just to get the treat when he's called back in?

This isn't something new, the barking / chasing, he's been doing it almost since day one. The tasty treats are somewhat new but I think he has managed to put the two together. 

I could walk to the fence, ignore what's going on, put him on lead and bring him into the house with no treats or praise - maybe even ignore him for a while. Maybe this would be clearer to him that if he makes this choice the results aren't much fun...

And thank you for the nice comment regarding the picture.

Pete


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## FlyingQuizini (Oct 24, 2006)

FeatherRiverSam said:


> Thanks Stephanie. I've been working on it a couple of weeks now and this is what I've noticed...Woody will run to the fence full speed barking his head off and when he reaches the fence he'll almost immediately turn around and look at me and as soon as I call him 95% of the time he's back to me like a bullet unless...there's another dog off leash at the fence that he doesn't know....then it takes a bit longer...
> 
> (By the way I'm a Dad not a Mom  )
> 
> Pete


Sounds like a behavior chain. I'd try this:

Manage the situation to you can catch/interrupt/redirect him the second he starts to head for the fence and bark. If you normally leave a back door open, I'd close it so he can't zoom out anytime he wants. 

If you see him *think* about barking, interrupt that, too. "Eh-eh... quiet...Good quiet.... <insert treat>"

It will be helpful to get the reward in there for the fact that he didn't make it all the way to the at-the-fence-barkfest. Make NOT running to the fence to bark more fun than running there.

If I'm inside with my dogs and they get all fired up about something, I'll often drop a handful of kibble on the floor the split second I see them getting ready to bark. The sequence is Noise > Head Cocks > Bark!Bark!Bar... LOOK... KIBBLE!!!" Quickly it becomes Noise> Head Cock> Anticipation of Kibble! Then I can praise the choice of not barking and reward with food intermittently.

If he's outside unsupervised, best to put an end to that for now b/c it will take you too long to get up, go out there and wrangle him back in. You want to catch the barking behavior at the earliest point possible.


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## FeatherRiverSam (Aug 7, 2009)

AcesWild said:


> Try changing the game....don't call him...see what he does. Just stand there and look. Or call him then when he gets there as him to do something else, or make him go back out there with you to "face" the intruder quietly. Like "okay show me what your barking at. Now okay knock it off."
> 
> I have to change the game with Moxie all the time because of how smart she is, and it sounds like you have the same problem with woody!


I think some sort of, for lack of better words, mild correction is required here so the act itself it no longer becomes fun for him...



Tailer'sFolks said:


> I was thinking you should also prgive Woody a "call" when he's near the fence, but not barking also. Practice, practice, practice! Good Luck...what a great picture of your Angel and your nephews! Woody on the bow looks like a very happy boy!


Thank you ...I'm not sure I understand what you're suggesting...

Pete


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

You could try making him do a down anytime he starts barking at the fence. As soon as he barks, make him do a down, and keep him in that position for enough time for him to think about it. If he is calmed down, go ahead and release him, but if he starts barking again immediately put him back in a down. He will learn that as long as he is barking at the stuff on the other side of the fence, he has to do a boring down. If he is quiet he can have fun watching it.

Of course for this to be successful the dog has to have been trained a very solid down.


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## FeatherRiverSam (Aug 7, 2009)

Once again thank you Stephanie...I like the idea of rewarding a different behavior and making it the better choice for the dog rather than trying to just correct an annoying behavior. I'll try and give what you suggested a try - hopefully it will help and we'll have a quite happy dog.

Pete


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## FeatherRiverSam (Aug 7, 2009)

Loisiana said:


> You could try making him do a down anytime he starts barking at the fence. As soon as he barks, make him do a down, and keep him in that position for enough time for him to think about it. If he is calmed down, go ahead and release him, but if he starts barking again immediately put him back in a down. He will learn that as long as he is barking at the stuff on the other side of the fence, he has to do a boring down. If he is quiet he can have fun watching it.
> 
> Of course for this to be successful the dog has to have been trained a very solid down.


He's got a pretty good down / stay, had to teach him that for my fly-fishing - now that was important!

Thank you Loisiana, I'll certainly take that into consideration.

Pete


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## Tailer'sFolks (Feb 27, 2007)

Does Woody walk the fence when he is not barking at things passing by? What I was thinking was that when he's by the fence...behaving, "call" him back to you, praise and release. Break the desire to be by the fence just a thought.

My Tailer gets fixed on something and I break his concentration with a "Pisshh" if one doesn't work he gets another one. If I don't catch him in the first seconds I really have to YELL! 

Good Luck!


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