# Health Clearances are final! Yay.



## SterlingValleyGoldens (Jun 13, 2011)

Just wanted to come back and update. Since breeding our first litter and taking in all the advice around here I wanted to come back and share the news that ALL clearances (including thyroid) have been completed with CERF and the OFA and she passed! Now to upload it to K9Data.com


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Congratulations! What a great feeling.


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## goldhaven (Sep 3, 2009)

The is great. I am so happy for you. How are all the pups doing? You kept one, right. Would love to see some photos.


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## GoldenMum (Mar 15, 2010)

That is wonderful.......


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## SterlingValleyGoldens (Jun 13, 2011)

Goldhaven, yes we kept one. Her AKC name is Unsinkable Molly (since the litter was born on the day titanic was re-released). She is gorgeous, but I could be biased. She is also very smart and eager to please. We have stayed in touch with all the owners, and the entire litter is doing great. Their families just love them!


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Phew! Glad she passed everything.


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## Max's Dad (Apr 23, 2012)

Congratulations on the good news. I am sure it was a lot of work to get that all done.


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## Golden4Life (May 6, 2009)

Super!! Congratulations!


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

Thyroid tests? How is that test done? Normally thyroid problems don't show up for years.


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## mylissyk (Feb 25, 2007)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Thyroid tests? How is that test done? Normally thyroid problems don't show up for years.


Thyroid levels can be tested at any time with a blood test. Robbie was tested before he was two and needed medication.

Congrats on the clearances. And pictures of your pup are required! (jk)


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

mylissyk said:


> Thyroid levels can be tested at any time with a blood test. Robbie was tested before he was two and needed medication.
> 
> Congrats on the clearances. And pictures of your pup are required! (jk)


I know how they are tested LOL. My point is how can this reliable down the road? As my boy was diagnosed when he was 5 years old.


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## SterlingValleyGoldens (Jun 13, 2011)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Thyroid tests? How is that test done? Normally thyroid problems don't show up for years.


Thyroid test is a blood test. We decided that we wanted to do absolutely everything we could to make sure she was healthy and before breeding any more litters. while most Thyroid issues don't come up until later, they can sometime be picked up on earlier through blood tests (just like in humans, sometimes there can be an underlying issue, but you're not symptomatic). Anyways, with that said, we chose to have her thyroid tested as well for good measure so to speak, and will continue to check it as she matures more.


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## SterlingValleyGoldens (Jun 13, 2011)

Here are some pictures of Molly. These were taken around 4-5 months old. She will be 6 months old on Oct. 4.


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## Max's Dad (Apr 23, 2012)

Molly is a pretty girl. Thanks for sharing.


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## goldhaven (Sep 3, 2009)

So cute. How is her training going?


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> I know how they are tested LOL. My point is how can this reliable down the road? As my boy was diagnosed when he was 5 years old.


They're not part of the core clearances, but it's always nice to see a breeder making the effort. Certainly, the younger it's done in life, the less it tells you, but it's a smart thing to see that thyroid values are normal before breeding the dog. Like a CERF, you probably want to repeat it later in life, even after the dog is done with her breeding career, to see if any problems show up late.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

I noticed the heart clearance was from a practitioner as opposed to a cardiologist--are you going to "redo" that clearance? Also, was Molly & Sophie's sire's clearances ever completed? Just want to point out that its important to have generations of clearances behind the dogs being bred especially when Abby has Fair hips. 

Now with three girls in your breeding program, are you going to pursue a venue to "prove" them (ex. agility, obedience, field, conformation). As your website points out that your breeding "quality" goldens, just wondering what the plans are (if any) to substantiate that statement. It's great that you're moving in the right direction with the clearances, I just hope you don't stop with the bare minimum.


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## golden_eclipse (Apr 1, 2011)

FYI A lot of thyroid problems are associated with early spay and neuter. A golden is 3 times as likely to be hypothyroid if they have been spayed or neutered before sexual maturity. Thus why breeders like to insist their puppies are not spayed or neutered before sexual maturity. A thyroid problem is not straight forward genetic, a LOT of it is associated with lifestyle, ie. being over weight, not having enough exercise, and being spayed and neutered too early. With that said it is a good step to test breeding stock before they are bred and should be repeated if there are any questionable symptoms.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

kdowningxc said:


> FYI A lot of thyroid problems are associated with early spay and neuter. A golden is 3 times as likely to be hypothyroid if they have been spayed or neutered before sexual maturity. Thus why breeders like to insist their puppies are not spayed or neutered before sexual maturity. A thyroid problem is not straight forward genetic, a LOT of it is associated with lifestyle, ie. being over weight, not having enough exercise, and being spayed and neutered too early. With that said it is a good step to test breeding stock before they are bred and should be repeated if there are any questionable symptoms.


Actually weight gain is a SYMPTOM of hypo thyroidism not a cause. Exercise has nothing to do with it. My boy Cody who was neutered at the age of 2 was diagnosed with hypothyroidism.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

SterlingValleyGoldens said:


> Here are some pictures of Molly. These were taken around 4-5 months old. She will be 6 months old on Oct. 4.


Molly is a doll! You are doing a great job!


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## golden_eclipse (Apr 1, 2011)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Actually weight gain is a SYMPTOM of hypo thyroidism not a cause. Exercise has nothing to do with it. My boy Cody who was neutered at the age of 2 was diagnosed with hypothyroidism.


Really, science has proven even in humans, if you are over weight you are more susceptible to hypothyroidism...(hypothyroidism makes it worse absolutely), but circumstances can allow a trait to present it self, or not present it self. 

Exercise can prevent hypothyroidism, or lessen the severity. 

And again research shows a risk increased 3 fold if a dog is neutered early. The genetic component is there, but a big factor is environment.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

It's fairly well documented that obesity can increase the likelihood and severity of thyroid problems in people. Hypothyroidism can _also_ lead to a 5-10% increase in body weight due to fluid retention, but it does not _cause_ severe obesity.

It's also well documented that exercise and weight loss can reduce the severity of hypothyroidism.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

kdowningxc said:


> Really, science has proven even in humans, if you are over weight you are more susceptible to hypothyroidism...(hypothyroidism makes it worse absolutely), but circumstances can allow a trait to present it self, or not present it self.
> 
> Exercise can prevent hypothyroidism, or lessen the severity.
> 
> And again research shows a risk increased 3 fold if a dog is neutered early. The genetic component is there, but a big factor is environment.



LOL overweight people have a lot of underlying problem. Exercise does not prevent hypothyroidism. But hypothyroidism will prevent exercise as your energy level is lowered. 

Cody's first symptom was weight gain , second was lack of energy. He would stop mid walk and lay down to rest. Vet said he had classic symptoms of hypothyroidism. Tested positive. 

Still not seeing the connection with neuter timing LOL!



tippykayak said:


> It's fairly well documented that obesity can increase the likelihood and severity of thyroid problems in people. Hypothyroidism can _also_ lead to a 5-10% increase in body weight due to fluid retention, but it does not _cause_ severe obesity.
> 
> It's also well documented that exercise and weight loss can reduce the severity of hypothyroidism.


Obesity is a whole other ball game.

And I would not like this thread hijacked because of such nonsense . Sorry OP.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

and hopefully with all of the thyroid discussion, the OP will see that her pursuit of clearances still isn't complete.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> LOL overweight people have a lot of underlying problem. Exercise does not prevent hypothyroidism. But hypothyroidism will prevent exercise as your energy level is lowered.


Hypothyroidism is associated with exercise intolerance in people, yes. But healthy weight _does_ lower the risk and severity of thyroid disregulation, as the links I previously provided demonstrate.



Wyatt's mommy said:


> Still not seeing the connection with neuter timing LOL!


I believe Kdowning is referring to studies like this one in which neutering was associated with increased risks of thyroid dysfunction later in life. She may also be referring to Rhonda Hovan's influential paper on neutering age which claims a relationship between neutering age and thyroid risk. I've never been able to figure out exactly what paper she's getting the thyroid risk numbers from, but it's generally accepted that there may be at least some risk and that the risk increases the earlier the neutering is done.




Wyatt's mommy said:


> Obesity is a whole other ball game.


Not really. You specifically told us that hypothyroidism caused weight gain and was not caused _by_ weight gain. That is incorrect. Hypothyroidism causes _minor_ weight gain, and being overweight does increase the risk factors.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> Not really. You specifically told us that hypothyroidism caused weight gain and was not caused _by_ weight gain. That is incorrect. Hypothyroidism causes _minor_ weight gain, and being overweight does increase the risk factors.


The reality is that hypothyroidism is being found more in dogs that were neutered and spayed period. If someone is using this argument as a reason to not neuter early that is just ridiculous. Now that would be the definition of over the top LOL!

I specifically said that weight gain was a SYMPTOM not a cause. And that being overweight was not the cause of hypothyroidism. Quit twisting my words. I also said overweight people have many underlying problems. I never said anything about obesity. Common sense tells me an obese person would not notice the classic symptoms of hypothyroidism.


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

Congrats! I am so happy to see this!arty::appl:


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

SterlingValleyGoldens said:


> Here are some pictures of Molly. These were taken around 4-5 months old. She will be 6 months old on Oct. 4.


 Awww, what a cutie!


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

MercyMom said:


> Congrats! I am so happy to see this!arty::appl:


Wouldn't be clapping yet, Abby only has a practitioner heart clearance (not cardiologist) and the sire of the litter now has a practitioner heart clearance, CERF still missing. Looks like the sire's breeder is now accomplishing clearances but still practices breeding goldens under the age of one. Not quite a solid foundation to build a breeding program upon.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> The reality is that hypothyroidism is being found more in dogs that were neutered and spayed period. If someone is using this argument as a reason to not neuter early that is just ridiculous. Now that would be the definition of over the top LOL!
> 
> I specifically said that weight gain was a SYMPTOM not a cause. And that being overweight was not the cause of hypothyroidism. Quit twisting my words. I also said overweight people have many underlying problems. I never said anything about obesity. Common sense tells me an obese person would not notice the classic symptoms of hypothyroidism.


Sorry - are you differentiating between being overweight and being obese? Is that the point of confusion or contention here? 

I'm not sure what your point is. Kdowning said that being overweight increased risks. It does. You seemed to disagree, but I'm no longer sure why or on what point.

_Minor_ weight gain is a symptom. Being overweight brings increased risk. As long as that's not in contention here, I'm not sure what there is to argue about.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

SheetsSM said:


> Wouldn't be clapping yet, Abby only has a practitioner heart clearance (not cardiologist) and the sire of the litter now has a practitioner heart clearance, CERF still missing. Looks like the sire's breeder is now accomplishing clearances but still practices breeding goldens under the age of one. Not quite a solid foundation to build a breeding program upon.


I think most of us are just trying to be supportive of a step in the right direction here, not necessarily endorsing the rest of the program as meeting ideal standards for a reputable breeder.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

tippykayak said:


> I think most of us are just trying to be supportive of a step in the right direction here, not necessarily endorsing the rest of the program as meeting ideal standards for a reputable breeder.


And my fear is that this is someone that's learning to talk the talk but not walk the walk. In the time that she had the first litter in April 12--she's acquired 2 more females for her breeding program (one she produced & the other that came from the same kennel as the sire of her litter). Certainly not slowing down any and trying to do things right even with her goal of producing "quality" golden retrievers.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> Sorry - are you differentiating between being overweight and being obese? Is that the point of confusion or contention here?
> 
> I'm not sure what your point is. Kdowning said that being overweight increased risks. It does. You seemed to disagree, but I'm no longer sure why or on what point.
> 
> _Minor_ weight gain is a symptom. Being overweight brings increased risk. As long as that's not in contention here, I'm not sure what there is to argue about.


There is no confusion. You threw in obesity to the mix. Everyone knows there is clearly a difference between obesity and being overweight. 

I already made my point And if you look back your point about risks associated with being overweight was already acknowledged by me. Did you miss the part where I said overweight people have many underlying problems. Perhaps I should have said risks instead of problems.

I believe her post was misleading especially where she said exercise can_ prevent_ hypothryrodism. And that neutering early is associated when it would have been more accurate to say that studies now are showing that most dogs _diagnosed_ with hypothyroidism have been neutered period regardless of age. And even that is only the dogs that have been diagnosed. How many go undiagnosed? The average dog owner won't even notice the classic symptoms of hypothyroidism. I believe it was just a sad attempt to get people to wait to neuter JMHO.

Back to my original thought which was trying to find out how a breeder can control or reduce such a disease. Not sure they can.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> I believe her post was misleading especially where she said exercise can_ prevent_ hypothryrodism.


It probably can. Some dogs and people will clearly experience thyroid dysfunction regardless of weight or exercise, but it appears as if exercise and healthy weight can reduce the risks. That means for some dogs and people, exercise will be the difference between getting it and not getting it.



Wyatt's mommy said:


> And that neutering early is associated when it would have been more accurate to say that studies now are showing that most dogs _diagnosed_ with hypothyroidism have been neutered period regardless of age. And even that is only the dogs that have been diagnosed. How many go undiagnosed? The average dog owner won't even notice the classic symptoms of hypothyroidism. I believe it was just a sad attempt to get people to wait to neuter JMHO.


While I don't agree with everything said by the "wait to neuter" camp, I don't think their attempts are sad. I think they're mostly just motivated by what they think is in the best interest of dogs.

As far as neutering age, some of the research _does_ appear to tie it to age, with the risks going down when the dog is neutered later. The study I linked does not examine age, but Hovan's paper does.



Wyatt's mommy said:


> Back to my original thought which was trying to find out how a breeder can control or reduce such a disease. Not sure they can.


Nothing's for sure, I guess, but the whole concept behind breeding dogs is that you avoid breeding phenotypical elements you don't want in the hopes that it will reduce the genotypical elements you don't want, thus reducing future appearance of the unwanted phenotypical problems. It's quite likely that propensity to thyroid disfunction (particularly the hypothyroid problems that show up in Goldens) is largely genetic, so I would support any cost-effective attempt to identify it in breeding stock in order to lower its incidence in the breed.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> It probably can.


My point exactly!


I thought it was a reach and sad JMHO. I commend their motivation, however, misleading people will not help their cause.



I understand the concept I just don't see how they can reduce the risk of this disease. Especially when the majority are not diagnosed until they are 5 years and older. Just thinking out loud now. And I need to learn how to multi quote LOL!


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## SterlingValleyGoldens (Jun 13, 2011)

SheetsSM said:


> I noticed the heart clearance was from a practitioner as opposed to a cardiologist--are you going to "redo" that clearance? Also, was Molly & Sophie's sire's clearances ever completed? Just want to point out that its important to have generations of clearances behind the dogs being bred especially when Abby has Fair hips.
> 
> Now with three girls in your breeding program, are you going to pursue a venue to "prove" them (ex. agility, obedience, field, conformation). As your website points out that your breeding "quality" goldens, just wondering what the plans are (if any) to substantiate that statement. It's great that you're moving in the right direction with the clearances, I just hope you don't stop with the bare minimum.


Yes, her clearance was from a practioner, however the practioner, is skilled in cardiology and was examined by doppler as well. With that said, I plan on re-doing that particular clearance. I may also re-do her hips since i think her hips could possibly have scored better with better xray positioning. We have plans on "proving" the girls we use in our program. The sire has since had his clearances done. I don't plan on stopping with the bare minimum.


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## SterlingValleyGoldens (Jun 13, 2011)

SheetsSM said:


> And my fear is that this is someone that's learning to talk the talk but not walk the walk. In the time that she had the first litter in April 12--she's acquired 2 more females for her breeding program (one she produced & the other that came from the same kennel as the sire of her litter). Certainly not slowing down any and trying to do things right even with her goal of producing "quality" golden retrievers.


You do not know how Sophie was aquired, or why. I think it's time to step back, take a breath, ask questions and make judgments later. Rather than judge first, accuse second, and then ask questions. All breeders have had to start somewhere, and I'm going to guess that most have made some mistakes along the way. The only way we can better our breeding programs (and really, everything in life), is to learn along the way, make better choices, etc. I think I've proven that I am doing just that. If I didn't care, than I would not have even done the "bare minimum", nor would I be taking the steps to better our program, prove our dogs, etc.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

SterlingValleyGoldens said:


> You do not know how Sophie was aquired, or why. I think it's time to step back, take a breath, ask questions and make judgments later. Rather than judge first, accuse second, and then ask questions. All breeders have had to start somewhere, and I'm going to guess that most have made some mistakes along the way. The only way we can better our breeding programs (and really, everything in life), is to learn along the way, make better choices, etc. I think I've proven that I am doing just that. If I didn't care, than I would not have even done the "bare minimum", nor would I be taking the steps to better our program, prove our dogs, etc.


Yet you already have another litter planned for this Nov/Dec depending on whether I'm looking at your website or doggies.com. So is Abby being bred back to back--not really anytime to "prove" her huh? Or are you going to breed Sophie who won't be 2 until December?

As was already recommended on other threads, those looking to be reputable breeders typically start with a mentor, put titles on their own dogs, study pedigrees and then just maybe enter into the world of breeding. They don't take one dog from a high volume breeder with no clearances behind her and pair her up with another male who doesn't have generations of clearances behind him either. 

I don't get the rush to breed especially when you readily admit that you have so much to learn.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> I understand the concept I just don't see how they can reduce the risk of this disease. Especially when the majority are not diagnosed until they are 5 years and older. Just thinking out loud now. And I need to learn how to multi quote LOL!


The later the onset, the more difficult it is to reduce diseases like this. That's the particular challenge with things like PU and the reason that yearly CERFing a dog even after a breeding career is over is now the gold standard. There's no harm in an early thyroid clearance, but the later it's done, the more diagnostic it would be in demonstrating stability in that line.

Some cases—probably some of the most severe—would be caught by a thyroid panel done at 24 months, so it's not worthless. And you can't wait until the animal is 5 or 6 (with bitches at least) to start breeding her. If you were really dedicated to finding the disease, you'd do it before breeding the animals and then again later in life, at least once.

CERFs are done yearly through a dog's whole life in order to catch a couple of nasty, late onset diseases. Thyroid disease is typically less serious and doesn't always wait until older age, so I doubt a yearly thyroid would be efficient, but I certainly like to see late thyroid clearances in the ancestry of a pedigree.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

SheetsSM said:


> And my fear is that this is someone that's learning to talk the talk but not walk the walk. In the time that she had the first litter in April 12--she's acquired 2 more females for her breeding program (one she produced & the other that came from the same kennel as the sire of her litter). Certainly not slowing down any and trying to do things right even with her goal of producing "quality" golden retrievers.


I absolutely respect the concerns here, but I'm going to delay judgment a bit. You're right that probably 80% of the breeders that come on here under these circumstances go back to doing things the wrong way but learning how to talk the talk a bit better. It's incredibly frustrating.

I struggle to give the benefit of the doubt in these situations, but I think I will for a bit. It'll become clear what direction they're headed in soon enough.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> *And you can't wait until the animal is 5 or 6 (with bitches at least) to start breeding her.* If you were really dedicated to finding the disease, you'd do it before breeding the animals and then again later in life, at least once.


That was my whole point as the majority of diagnosis is at that age. So the damage is already done if it is indeed genetics.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> That was my whole point as the majority of diagnosis is at that age. So the damage is already done if it is indeed genetics.


It's still useful to breeders when a grandparent is diagnosed after her breeding career is over. Maybe you can't find out about something in time to decide not to breed, but if a dog is diagnosed at, say, 7, you can at least start to track the issue in descendants as part of a plan to lower its incidence.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> It's still useful to breeders when a grandparent is diagnosed after her breeding career is over. Maybe you can't find out about something in time to decide not to breed, but if a dog is diagnosed at, say, 7, you can at least start to track the issue in descendants as part of a plan to lower its incidence.


Oh sure they can certainly track. That brings me back to my original thought as how they can reduce the risk of a disease that does't rear it's ugly head until all breeding is said and done.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> Oh sure they can certainly track. That brings me back to my original thought as how they can reduce the risk of a disease that does't rear it's ugly head until all breeding is said and done.


This article is on pigmentary uveitis, but it gives you a good idea of how you can use screening to reduce the incidence of late-onset hereditary diseases.


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## Wyatt's mommy (Feb 25, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> This article is on pigmentary uveitis, but it gives you a good idea of how you can use screening to reduce the incidence of late-onset hereditary diseases.


I believe we are all for early detection of any disease, however that doesn't reduce the incidence itself. That article just confirmed my thoughts. Thanks for posting the article though. It's a good reminder to stay on top of our pups health.


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## Pointgold (Jun 6, 2007)

Wyatt's mommy said:


> LOL overweight people have a lot of underlying problem. Exercise does not prevent hypothyroidism. But hypothyroidism will prevent exercise as your energy level is lowered.
> 
> Cody's first symptom was weight gain , second was lack of energy. He would stop mid walk and lay down to rest. Vet said he had classic symptoms of hypothyroidism. Tested positive.
> 
> ...


 
It isn't nonsense at all.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

If health clearances are available for 12 generations for a potential litter, it is so helpful for making wise decisions. Yes, this information does prevent disease.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

SterlingValleyGoldens said:


> She is gorgeous, but I could be biased.


This is the best reason to get out and compete with dogs who will be bred. It lessens the possibility of kennel blindness or bias. We should all fall in love with our own dogs, but they should not, imo, be bred by a new breeder without finished titles.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

SheetsSM said:


> Yet you already have another litter planned for this Nov/Dec depending on whether I'm looking at your website or doggies.com. So is Abby being bred back to back--not really anytime to "prove" her huh? Or are you going to breed Sophie who won't be 2 until December?
> 
> As was already recommended on other threads, those looking to be reputable breeders typically start with a mentor, put titles on their own dogs, study pedigrees and then just maybe enter into the world of breeding. They don't take one dog from a high volume breeder with no clearances behind her and pair her up with another male who doesn't have generations of clearances behind him either.
> 
> I don't get the rush to breed especially when you readily admit that you have so much to learn.


Back to back litters, repeat breeding, only one generation of clearances, practitioner heart clearance & peddling pups on puppyfind.com as xmas presents for a mere $1250 x's 9 puppies--sounds like she stumbled upon a lucrative money making business.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Once you know better, you should do better. I can somewhat excuse early ignorance if someone, once informed of what should be done prior to breeding, makes every effort to do things right the next time around. Although in the age of the internet I think it would be disingenuous for a "breeder" to say they had no idea that there are known hereditary health issues in the breed. 

I find it exceedingly disappointing that these dogs only have practitioner heart clearances. There is no excuse to not have a cardiologist heart clearance, in my opinion. The interesting thing is that there are a number of board certified cardiologists I know of within about an hour drive from where the OP lives. (There may be others even closer.) If one can find the time to breed a dog they can take an afternoon and drive to get a cardiologist heart clearance. I find any excuse regarding lack of clearances unconvincing, particularly when you live in southern California with so many qualified radiologists, ACVO diplomates and board certified cardiologists such a short drive from almost anywhere in the area.

And lest I be accused of judging before knowing all the information, this is not passing judgment. This is telling it like it is.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

A practitioner heart clearance is not enough... I could do my own dogs, I don't...so here is the bugaboo, you can get a practitioner heart clearance on OFA, but you can have a more worthy heart clearance by a cardiologist that maybe you did not send in to OFA...


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Well the saga continues...Sophie ("Sophie of Shadow Mountain Goldens") is now being sold on Craigs List of all places--just turned 2 and is now looking for her third home & this being a "pick of the litter" from Shadow Mountain Golden Retrievers and then re-homed to Sterling Valley Golden Retrievers who uses Shadow Mountain's stud. Hopefully she'll at least be spayed prior to being sold.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Oh how sad... The photo is straight off the website. The description of her temperament is very telling. There isn't a dog in my house that is wary of strangers. In fact correct golden temperament is outgoing....


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

SheetsSM said:


> Well the saga continues...Sophie ("Sophie of Shadow Mountain Goldens") is now being sold on Craigs List of all places--just turned 2 and is now looking for her third home & this being a "pick of the litter" from Shadow Mountain Golden Retrievers and then re-homed to Sterling Valley Golden Retrievers who uses Shadow Mountain's stud. Hopefully she'll at least be spayed prior to being sold.



Oh Boy :no:


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## Millie'sMom (Sep 7, 2012)

This is a breeder selling a dog on CL? How sad for that poor dog. I wonder how much the re-homing fee is.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Wait, it this one of our member's dogs?


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## inge (Sep 20, 2009)

Ljilly28 said:


> Wait, it this one of our member's dogs?


Yes, the same picture of Sophie is on their website....


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Sorry for not having all my facts straight, but was Sophie bred first? Do we know how many times?


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## Max's Dad (Apr 23, 2012)

It appears the ad has been deleted. I do not believe that Sophie was bred. The most recent litter on the Sterling Valley web site was with Abby.


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## OnMyWay2MyDreams (Feb 13, 2011)

So sad! On their website they did say that Abby had pups in nov.. So she was bred twice in a year..obviously never getting her into some sort of venue. And the heart clearance... Ugh. 

Lilly already had her heart clearance from a cardiologist..i couldnt fathom being done by my vet. You do it through a clinic and its really not that much! Even eyes are done for not too much.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Who in the name of God breeds a dog twice in a year???? That poor dog could not have barely gotten back on her feet and had puppies again. And she is only 3 years old!!!!!  :no:


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## goldhaven (Sep 3, 2009)

The breeder that I got my pup from, breeds her girls back to back, then one cycle off, then back to back again, then she has them spayed and places them in a forever home. I think that it is a common practice among breeders. 
BTW, my breeder is on the list of preeminent breeders on this forum.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

There are many reasons to breed back to back. It is not necessarily a bad thing!!


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## OnMyWay2MyDreams (Feb 13, 2011)

Its bad when you dont take the advice from experienced and knowledgable breeders. She could have taken the time to DO something with the dog, but instead just bred her and made more money. The experienced breeders can do it because they know what they are doing.. She even made a big deal about heath clearances on her website, yet didnt go to a cardiologist. Also, she didnt test before the first breeding..so thats a lie! I personally traveled 2 1/2 hrs one way to get my dog her clearance done by a cardiologist. I dont usually come on these threads but myself being a newbie in show/obedience world and trying to do things the right way (getting clearances done and actually doing stuff with my dogs) I get upset when others are cutting corners..for what? To make money. Sorry if the only things she has done with her dog are those few clearances she made money. 

This is from her website:
"We take pride in our breeding program and our puppies. For this reason we breed on a very limited basis. Our number one priority is the health of our puppies. All our dogs of breeding age are health clearance. We certify their eyes, hips, and elbows through CERF (Canine Eye Registry Foundation) and the OFA (Orthopedic Foundation for Animals) prior to breeding."

" As a small hobby breeder of quality golden retrievers our focus is on producing healthy, well-adjusted, sociable, quality puppies."

Just saw her info on K9 data..sorry these dogs have NOTHING behind them ..on the 5 generation behind Abby there are 6 dogs wi hips..way way back.. they look like BYB bred ... She needs to start over, completely, to do things right.


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## OnMyWay2MyDreams (Feb 13, 2011)

Also..she had pups on 11/7..that would mean that she was bred beginning of september around probably the 3-7 potentially counting backwards.. now she had the xray films done on Aug 4 as reported on offa, the report wasnt done until Sept 17 th..she probably didnt get results until a week or so after that..so yet again bred before clearances were known. 

Things are not adding up!


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Sorry - I just cannot fathom reasons to breed this close. She was probably done feeding her pups towards the end of May. She had only a couple months to get back on her feet and then she was pregnant again in Sept. I am still upset about this.


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## Millie'sMom (Sep 7, 2012)

OnMyWay2MyDreams said:


> Also..she had pups on 11/7..that would mean that she was bred beginning of september around probably the 3-7 potentially counting backwards.. now she had the xray films done on Aug 4 as reported on offa, the report wasnt done until Sept 17 th..she probably didnt get results until a week or so after that..so yet again bred before clearances were known.
> 
> Things are not adding up!


Apparently, she does not wish to change her ways. Which is unfortunate, especially for future puppies and their families.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Not that I advocate it, but some of the repro gurus recommend back to back breedings to maximize fertility... I have only to show you all a photo of my Basil, who had pups five months ago, has not regrown her coat, and is in standing heat to convince you that waiting is not a bad idea. I am going to a meeting given by Dr Hutchinson on repro toward the end of the month... Will ask for clarification....


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## Loisiana (Jul 29, 2009)

Claudia M said:


> Who in the name of God breeds a dog twice in a year????


Um, lots of very reputable breeders


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## MercyMom (Dec 19, 2011)

That's great! Congratulations!


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## OnMyWay2MyDreams (Feb 13, 2011)

MercyMom said:


> That's great! Congratulations!


Who are you saying that too?? The OP? Because she according to my research and posts above doesnt deserve the congrats! She has a ways to go to make things right.


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## MikaTallulah (Jul 19, 2006)

OnMyWay2MyDreams said:


> Who are you saying that too?? The OP? Because she according to my research and posts above doesnt deserve the congrats! She has a ways to go to make things right.


Maybe they did not read the whole thread. Just the beginning. It happens to me all the time.


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## MaddieMagoo (Aug 14, 2007)

I know it's not my business to step in, but you all might want the person or OP to let them have a chance to talk. We can't go around assuming what they are doing with their dogs. 

Yes, the person made a mistake, and I realize that they need to do a lot more than just a practioner heart clearance, but it's all a part of the learning process. I can say that sometimes people think breeding is a walk in the park. That is an understatement. Not everyone is cut out to be a breeder or even afford the clearances.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

A heart clearance from a cardiologist is anywhere from $40-65 in Southern California. If you are breeding and selling puppies you can afford $40-65. Hip and elbow xrays (including the submission fees to the OFA) are about $400 from one of the best radiologists on the west coast. That radiologist is conveniently located about 45 minutes from the OP, in Newport Beach. Again, if one is breeding and selling puppies they can afford $400. And eye exam is about the same price as a cardiologists examination, less at a clinic hosted by a breed club. There is no excuse to say one cannot afford clearances if someone is producing puppies. If that amount of money is going to break the bank what will the breeder do if they need an emergency c-section, vet treatment for puppies or dam, supplemental food for the pups, etc etc???

I have NO sympathy for someone who knows better not doing better. This breeder knows better and should be doing better.


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## MaddieMagoo (Aug 14, 2007)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> A heart clearance from a cardiologist is anywhere from $40-65 in Southern California. If you are breeding and selling puppies you can afford $40-65. Hip and elbow xrays (including the submission fees to the OFA) are about $400 from one of the best radiologists on the west coast. That radiologist is conveniently located about 45 minutes from the OP, in Newport Beach. Again, if one is breeding and selling puppies they can afford $400. And eye exam is about the same price as a cardiologists examination, less at a clinic hosted by a breed club. There is no excuse to say one cannot afford clearances if someone is producing puppies. If that amount of money is going to break the bank what will the breeder do if they need an emergency c-section, vet treatment for puppies or dam, supplemental food for the pups, etc etc???
> 
> I have NO sympathy for someone who knows better not doing better. This breeder knows better and should be doing better.


I totally agree and this is where I was trying to shift this thread. If this person knew they should be doing better, then I blame them. People shouldn't be breeding if they can't go to a cardiologist for a heart clearance. That's just called being lazy and not caring.


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## OnMyWay2MyDreams (Feb 13, 2011)

She did know better after she was explained what she needed to do the next time after having bred and having a litter of pups on NO clearances. Then she did them, but didnt get theproper heart clearance, her hip results werent done before the next breeding and IMO her dog really is not of breeding quality, just look at her pedigree! Plus, she never took the advice on actually doing a venue with her dog.. Obedience, agility, fieldwork..something, instead she just had more pups! 

Again, frustrating for someone like me who is trying to do it right, not cut corners and still having that feeling like I should be doing even more! Yet she is ..well you get my point.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

Claudia M said:


> Sorry - I just cannot fathom reasons to breed this close.


Most of the Repro Vets I know now recommend back to back breedings, then rest for a cycle.


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## Swampcollie (Sep 6, 2007)

OnMyWay2MyDreams said:


> She did know better after she was explained what she needed to do the next time after having bred and having a litter of pups on NO clearances. Then she did them, but didnt get theproper heart clearance, her hip results werent done before the next breeding and IMO her dog really is not of breeding quality, just look at her pedigree! Plus, she never took the advice on actually doing a venue with her dog.. Obedience, agility, fieldwork..something, instead she just had more pups!
> 
> Again, frustrating for someone like me who is trying to do it right, not cut corners and still having that feeling like I should be doing even more! Yet she is ..well you get my point.


 
How many decades of breeding experience do you have? I've only been at it for, well, a long time, and I'm not THAT critical. (And I'm usually pretty grumpy.)

I will give her a little credit for the effort put forth in getting the clearances done. That's a big step in the right direction for a novice. She could use some help in choosing a better sire for her female but rookies sometimes make mistakes while they learn in the school of hard knocks. 

I spent a couple of hours looking through her girls pedigree and saw quite a few worthy dogs a number of which I had met over the years. Yeah, they're back there a ways but they were not crappy dogs. There were Dual Champions, Bench Champions, Field Champions, Hall of Fame dogs and the ONLY National Field Champion Golden Retriever that ever was, NFC Ready Always of Marion Hill. 

The breeding gene pool for the Golden Retriever isn't all that big, and genetic diversity is a serious concern for this breed as well as many purebred dog breeds. We do need healthy dogs of differing pedigree to outcross with on occasion to keep this breed healthy and viable. The direct offspring from such outcrosses probably won't win any championships, but they are needed none the less for the long term viability of the breed. If you're looking at championship pedigrees today, try to find one without a ton of Cummings Gold Rush Charlie or Holway Barty in it. This is one that has very little Barty, no Charlie, and having a number of historically significant kennels represented. 

It's better to check the dishwater for any gems lost before tossing it out completely. Once in a while you find something that could have value.


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## OnMyWay2MyDreams (Feb 13, 2011)

I am not the one with decades of breeding, however the others here on the forum who have done decades of breeding have spoken up. They tried to help but alas, she went part way. Its frustrating to me because I don't see how with what she has done, not done and yes Her dog itself how one can give good job just yet. When all I do hear from all the experienced breeders that at minimum all the four clearances be done (by specialists too) ideally even some of the DNA tests, the dog should be of Awesome quality with an really good pedigree, to use that dog in some sort of venue to "prove" itself..and then maybe..consider breeding. Am I correct in thinking of this?? And frankly The OP failed in some of those areas..esp when she bred with no clearances the first go around.. And if for some reason I cant count..possibly bred again without knowing her final clearances of hips and elbows for the second time. 

I am trying to do it right and am not using any excuses to why I shouldn't do as much as I can to better the breed. I have researched, listened and am now working my way to all this and at the end of the day I hope and pray I am doing it right. Not for the sake of pleasing other people, but because I don't want to hurt this breed in the long run. I just feel like if we allow others to cut corners and be OK with that because they are "trying" we will have issues popping up.


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## MaddieMagoo (Aug 14, 2007)

Unfortunately, there are A LOT of breeders, that are non-reputable and do clearances, but breed dogs that look like dogs are backyard-bred. This is where our breed is and then we have those who just stick two dogs together, because it's the neighbor dog and it would be "fun" to raise a litter. The other thing that gets me is that since these Field Champions are SO far back, the dogs in the 4-5 year generations have NOT been proven. 

Yes, this person did clearances, but breeding means a bit more than that. 

To me, a well-balanced Golden has titles on both ends; which I fear in our breed is a long-lost art.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I give her as much credit for getting clearances on her dogs as I give anyone. She does not deserve more credit because she previously bred without clearances. I am also a relative novice in the breed but I learned very early on (before we decided on the litter that produced our Jack) that clearances were necessary. I did not have a mentor at that time, there was no one guiding me. I was not even on this forum at that time. It does not take much to learn how to do things right. 

I don't think anyone is saying the bitch shouldn't be bred, this is more about the breeder knowing what they need to do and still failing to do it. If I were called out for cutting corners I would sure as heck make sure all my Is were dotted and Ts were crossed before breeding agin.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Just an update. Abby has now had her 3rd litter, practitioner heart clearance remains on offa.org The sire of the latest litter was under 2, yet the breeder's website listed him as OFA Excellent for hips and OFA normal for elbows when in fact these are prelims and not clearances. 

As for Sophie, it appears she was PTS this past January, the same time the breeder was looking to sell her on Craigs List and puppyfind.com for $1200.


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## Max's Dad (Apr 23, 2012)

SheetsSM said:


> Just an update. Abby has now had her 3rd litter, practitioner heart clearance remains on offa.org The sire of the latest litter was under 2, yet the breeder's website listed him as OFA Excellent for hips and OFA normal for elbows when in fact these are prelims and not clearances.
> 
> As for Sophie, it appears she was PTS this past January, the same time the breeder was looking to sell her on Craigs List and puppyfind.com for $1200.


What makes you think that Sophie was put down?


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## Emz (Feb 25, 2013)

Oh my this thread is so upsetting. I started reading and thought, great this byb has changed her ways.....apparently not. Why take these short cuts! So frustrating. I hope she reads these comments and takes them in consideration, and redo this mess....


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Max's Dad said:


> What makes you think that Sophie was put down?


Based on the date of death & cause that was posted on K9data.com by Sophie's owner.


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## Emz (Feb 25, 2013)

SheetsSM said:


> Based on the date of death & cause that was posted on K9data.com by Sophie's owner.


Oh my, i really hope this is not true.  surely a vet would not put a dog to sleep without probable cause? Or an exsisting health issue?


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Pedigree: Sophie Of Shadow Mountain Goldens

It does not say why she was PTS, just lists it as cause of death.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Yikes, Sophie was born when mom was 11 months old?


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## nolefan (Nov 6, 2009)

UGH.... I thought this was going to be the miracle example finally one "breeder" shows up here and learns proper practices and puts them into practice.... I don't think it's happened ever since I've been on this forum. And some people wonder why members here get cynical about the intentions of these people when they show up here.....


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## lhowemt (Jun 28, 2013)

I am so glad we have gotten our last 3 goldens from good breeders. I thought byb just meant someone having a litter, maybe two in their digs life. That's not ideal, nor recommended and I don't want one of those dogs with no health consideration. I had NO idea that byb often means mini-puppy mill. Yuk! If she did put that dog down for no cause, she'll get what is coming to her. Dogs are angels, if you don't treat them accordingly, your next/afterlife isn't going to be pretty. 


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