# Training Methods



## ktkins7 (Jul 20, 2013)

While waiting for warmer weather for continuing our field journey and since we are working on obedience any way, I enrolled Ella in another obedience class to practice and get her out of the house with this snow. We had our first class this morning. We did a basic obedience class at this training facility last year. It's a well known training facility in the area. They don't do any field stuff, but they do agility, obedience, rally, CGC, therapy classes, etc. I'm happy with the training that Ella has already received there to this point and will continue to dabble some with agility classes there for fun and to give her more confidence. I'll make it clear from the beginning so that I don't mislead anyone, I do like these trainers and am going to continue using them for the areas they concentrate on. I'm not bashing anyone so I don't want it to unintentionally come out that way.

Ella did one class here last year and then a sample lesson in September. Because Ella is such a lover and because of her personality, the trainers instantly remembered Ella. They asked what we had been up to and I told them we were doing the very beginning stages of field work. They asked what trainer I was using and I told them. Right away, I got the "Oh, he uses negative training." I then heard how "negative" training is bad for dogs because they are doing something out of fear. It hurts the owner/dog relationship. One of the trainers believed that it would be even worse for Ella because she's so sensitive (not to mention she's afraid of the invisible fence because the person jacked the correction all the way up). I'm sure everyone has heard the arguments before. They offered to help set me up with a field trainer that uses all positive reinforcement.

Before I started field training I had these same exact thoughts. I had my doubts when the field trainer used a choke collar. I'm actually more open to the ecollar, if used correctly, than the choke collar (the trainer today was adamant not to use one with Ella). I do worry slightly with the ecollar because of her issues with the invisible fence. But this field trainer seems to have a good reputation and has been doing it for years. Being a complete novice I'm putting trust in him hoping that he knows what he's doing and able to adjust to Ella's personality. So far, only two yard work lessons in, Ella responds much more quickly to a tug on the choke collar than she has for positive reinforcement. I haven't seen a change in our relationship. But one concern I have is that after the trainer has shown me how to do something with her and uses the choke collar, she doesn't seem so keen on him. Will kind of stay on top of me when normally she loves everyone. She will go back to him later, but it takes a few minutes for her to stop being right on top of me.

I already have my opinions on this, but I want to hear from other people who are more experienced with field training. Can you train for field effectively with only positive reinforcement and no ecollar?

My other question, which I've kind of been putting off, is should I remain with a trainer that Ella has this sort of reaction to? As I've said, other than today I've only heard good things about him. I was planning on giving him a chance but I don't want Ella to listen only out of fear. I haven't seen him do anything to her to the point that makes me want to say something to him, but I don't want Ella afraid of him. She does seem to forget the fear quickly.

Sorry if this is rambling, I had to start and stop a couple of times with distractions.

By the way, she did great in class today. Much improved since working on her obedience for field training.


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## Anon-2130948gsoni (Apr 12, 2014)

My thought is...why not try positive methods and see if they work first? You can always switch gears if you're not getting the results you're working for.

She sounds like a lovely, smart, biddable girl. To borrow from the medical field...first do no harm.


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## ktkins7 (Jul 20, 2013)

That sounds like an idea. She does want to please but can act a bit stubborn at times. I do know where there have been some areas where she's had an issue with positive reinforcement. The big one was loose leash walking and heel. The second she would be rewarded she would run forward again. Giving her a correction for this made all the difference in the world. Now I can just give a verbal command, maybe a slight little tug with a flat collar, and she goes right back to where she is supposed to.

What are other people's thoughts?


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## K9-Design (Jan 18, 2009)

Welcome to the dog world. Everyone is an expert -- especially people who have never done whatever it is they are criticizing you for! LOL You said it in your first sentence -- this training center DOESN'T do field work. So while you have only a little bit of experience -- they have zero experience. Your field trainer has mundo experience. You do the math.....

I 100% recommend you stay with your current field trainer. He hasn't done anything to make you question him, and so far his methods are working. What more proof do you need, that at this time, he is the answer?

To be very blunt, NO there is NO established training program or method relying only on positive reinforcement to achieve high levels of success in retriever field training. Can you participate and have fun at the low levels with no corrections? Yes, with the right dog and the right trainer. But even for this skill level there is no established method or literature -- it's training by feel. Which is really hard for new people to grasp.

(And on a personal level -- I hear stories like this ALL THE TIME -- person is having a completely lovely time field training until they bump into the neighborhood Positive Only Expert who ridicules them and tries to convince them of all the nasty things they are inadvertently doing to their dog -- even though -- they themselves have NO EXPERIENCE with field training. The nerve of these people! Mind your own business!!!)

About the potential referral to the "positive" field trainer. I have never met one of these elusive positive only field trainers that have ever ran a dog that impressed me with it's drive or skill level, or have achieved anything past the basic level. And please note that "positive only" doesn't just mean they don't use an ecollar. The people I know who do not use an ecollar, are NOT "no corrections." Entertaining this "expertise" is not something I'm wild about. 

I wouldn't be worried about Ella's bashful reactions to your instructor. That's pretty normal. Ella has only a handful of experiences with him and most are him firmly getting her to do something she probably initially didn't want to do. So far she only knows him as somewhat erratic, confusing and very dominant. She has no relationship with him. So that's pretty intimidating. She also probably leads a pretty cushy life so anyone who is firm and quick-moving and decisive is not what she's used to. The more you guys train with him and build a relationship and trust, she will absolutely learn to love him


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## tpd5 (Nov 7, 2013)

I know the field trainer you are working with. He is a very good guy and I have never seen him do anything to a dog that I would question as abusive or even close. If both you and Ella are liking it, I would continue with him. 

I'm not sure who the positive only trainer there would refer you to, but I do know one in the area. I am actually friends with this person. Would I train with this person using their methods? No way. I have seen their dogs run and have not been impressed. They were able to get a JH and SHR but after that it has not gone well. They just don't run with the style I like to see. 

I say if you are serious about wanting to continue with field work, stick with where you are.


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## ktkins7 (Jul 20, 2013)

K9-Design said:


> I wouldn't be worried about Ella's bashful reactions to your instructor. That's pretty normal. Ella has only a handful of experiences with him and most are him firmly getting her to do something she probably initially didn't want to do. So far she only knows him as somewhat erratic, confusing and very dominant. She has no relationship with him. So that's pretty intimidating. She also probably leads a pretty cushy life so anyone who is firm and quick-moving and decisive is not what she's used to. The more you guys train with him and build a relationship and trust, she will absolutely learn to love him


Both previous posts were pretty much what I was thinking, but it's good to hear other people have the same thoughts. I want to do what's best for Ella. My main concern was her reaction to the trainer. But as I said, it's not like she wouldn't go near him at all after working with him, it would be a short amount of time and then she was back to herself.

I laughed when reading the "cushy life" part. Cushy life might be an understatement. I've have definitely spoiled her. The rest of the household spoils her too.


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## ktkins7 (Jul 20, 2013)

tpd5 said:


> I know the field trainer you are working with. He is a very good guy and I have never seen him do anything to a dog that I would question as abusive or even close. If both you and Ella are liking it, I would continue with him.
> 
> I'm not sure who the positive only trainer there would refer you to, but I do know one in the area. I am actually friends with this person. Would I train with this person using their methods? No way. I have seen their dogs run and have not been impressed. They were able to get a JH and SHR but after that it has not gone well. They just don't run with the style I like to see.
> 
> I say if you are serious about wanting to continue with field work, stick with where you are.


From my interactions with him so far and with my limited knowledge he does seem like a good trainer. As I mentioned if I thought anything seemed too much I would have stepped in, but I didn't feel it was close to being needed. It was more of Ella's reaction that had me thinking a bit. I also considered it a good sign of how other dogs acted around him when I observed a group lesson.

And I have no idea which trainer they were thinking of, or even if they had someone specific in mind or if they were going to ask around and look into it.


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## Test-ok (Jan 15, 2015)

I know this is coming from the other side of the fence.
Owners need training more that their dogs do.
All dogs want to please and really don't want the job of pack leader.
All they want is to be part of the pack (family)


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

Some of it is a question of fit - when you, your dog, your goal, and your method are all a good fit, then learning takes place, trust is maintained as is pleasure in the learning process, and goals get met. If your goal is to get an AFC and your method is clicker training that is going to be a rough road and violate the cultural norms. If your goal is to teach pet people therapy dog skills, and certify them, then using an e collar is going to be an equally rough road and violate the culture. 

Many trainers who originate from zoos or train other species like wolves, parrots, dolphins etc with marker/ clicker training are just never going to agree that punishment is a valid way of teaching a dog. Dogs are so much more intuitive than many species, and learn rapidly and with joy when taught by someone with excellent marker skills that no punishment is needed. 

On the other hand, many dog sport niches have their own cultures, and can include or even emphasize well-timed punishment the dog understands how to stop and the dogs do learn that way too and achieve great goals. 

For some trainers the method IS the goal; for some trainers a method is a means to a goal. 

I fall into the first category bc I teach 300 dogs a week things like manners, CGC, Rally etc. The method that has no efficacy for upper level field training has great efficacy for STAR Puppies. 

On a more personal note, for me, looking into Tally's attentive face and knowing I earned his trust in me because I have never lost my temper with him, given a collar correction, hit, shocked, kicked or cuffed him is important to me but earning field title is not important to me. So we fit together: the dog, the method, the goals, and me are all a good fit so we are happy. 

If I wanted to earn a field title- the fit would be off kilter bc I believe the posters when they say it cant be done well. 

In order to achieve an upper level field title, I would have to be a whole different person with different views of a dog and trainer's relationship ( and probably buy a new dog), so I see from where your training center is coming. I also see where the posters above are originating their thoughts. If your goal is fieldwork, it is not going to happen with the training center's ethos. 

It is between each dog- human team to decide how the dog is taught things- and the dog has little input so the human bears heavy responsibility.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Here are my two cents. You and only you can decide what it is best for Ella and where you and Ella want to go with the training. What do you and Ella enjoy doing the most. Where does Ella lit up the most? 

IMHO because of the fiasco with the invisible fence you are trying to talk yourself out of the e-collar for training. Natural reaction. Darcy was abused with the bark collar for 4 years. I was doubtful she would ever wear an e-collar. She has worn the un-activated collar for 6 months before I used it. My relationship with Darcy has not been damaged one itty tiny bit because of it.

Why did I use it? Because by not using it you create bad behaviors that will be much harder to correct. And then those "positive" methods become so negative if your desire for you and Ella is to train towards hunt tests. 
Darcy loves water. She used to get in and get the duck but then about 5 feet from the shore she would just play in the water, blow bubbles under the water while blowing me completely off. 
I feel that the people who use words like positive training and negative training do it to make themselves feel better.
Things like my dog trusts me more because I did not do this and this and this is like saying that all dogs in the field do not trust their owners/handlers. Rubbish.


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

To me it's a matter of personal ethics. 

I'm not someone who has trained dogs before for anything so my opinion may not affect you (but you're gonna get it anyway!!). At this stage of my learning, I personally think aversives have their place in obedience training of its a matter of teaching a dog to be an acceptable part of society and keeping a dog from being surrendered and/or destroyed. 

For my mind field/hunting/agility are human created sports therefore I wouldn't feel comfortable using a choke chain to coerce or correct a desired behaviour. 

Even "all positive" trainers still subject their dogs to discomfort. Dogs get spayed and neutered. Having anal glands expressed isn't a pleasant experience. Ear drops.

My puppy hates having a bath or shower. After I've dried her she will run away from me and avoid me altogether for around half an hour. Will I stop washing her because of her discomfort, no. Is she scared of me 24/7 because of it, no, she is intelligent enough to realise that there are a number of factors that need to combine before she knows that a bath is imminent. 

We all set the bar at different levels. You have to be comfortable with your own choices. 

Read some of Gary Wilkes' blog. It can very interesting (although he does seem to have an axe to grind). 

http://clickandtreat.com/wordpress/?p=884


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## AmberSunrise (Apr 1, 2009)

You do need to choose what you feel is best for your dog given your current choices.

That said, you mentioned 2 things that stand out to me in your original post

- Your dog has issues going outside your home because of an eCollar
- Your dog is such a lover that she was instantly remembered at your school and yet she hangs back from your field instructor

My feelings are that when you have doubts about a person or the well being of your dog, you need to honor those doubts. It may take you longer to reach your goals (yes you can do field work without an eCollar since I know people who have MHs without a collar), but you have listened to what your instinct and your dog are telling you.

And you can reassess your goals and/or methods at any point in time. I do speak from experience here since I had a dog shut down from a professional working force fetch on a 2 year old GR - it took 4 years to get that dog back into a ring and he was never able to earn his CDX because of the dumbbell. It is beyond a very sad thing to see your dog's spirit broken like that based on what everyone tells you 'must be done'. I have also hired a professional who used the eCollar to permanently break another dogs' joy of running down my front yard to visit the horses across the street - it only took 1 session for a lifetime of stopping cold at the plane of the house and it was most assuredly a safety issue since I live on a state road where cars move upwards to 50mph.

ETA: Full disclosure. My Faelan was collar conditioned and an eCollar was used by his pro for field work. My pro knows his stuff and is a kind and thorough trainer. Faelan actually needed a high level of stimulation to make an impression since he has high drive and is physically tough; I simply do not have the available time to train my own dogs for field so I thought long & hard about my options since at least one hunt test title was in my agreement with his breeder. After Faelan earned his JH and was well on his way to higher titles, I needed to re-assess whether field/hunt work was important enough to me to justify eCollar usage. It was not personally important enough to me to go beyond a JH, although my Faelan had no issues and really loved working with his pro. This to me was key though, he loved his pro!! He loved working with and staying with his pro. The eCollar did not negatively impact him. His trainer is a fair and thorough man, never using an eCollar for things not taught. I never had misgivings about the safety or well being of my Faelan while he was with his pro. And he never had an issue with obedience since that was well established before he ever started field work - so choke training collars were never an issue.

It sounds like you do have doubts.


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)




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## gdgli (Aug 24, 2011)

ktkins

Did you condition your dog to the electric fence and collar?


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

gdgli said:


> ktkins
> 
> Did you condition your dog to the electric fence and collar?



From what I recall she didn't get a chance to. The remote was maxed out by the installer when Ella had it on. Ella then wouldn't go out in the yard at all for a while


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Chritty said:


> ......For my mind field/hunting/agility are human created sports therefore I wouldn't feel comfortable using a choke chain to coerce or correct a desired behaviour.
> 
> Even "all positive" trainers still subject their dogs to discomfort. Dogs get spayed and neutered. Having anal glands expressed isn't a pleasant experience. Ear drops.
> 
> ...


 It is not a matter of levels it is a matter of training your dog that you are not asking it to do something you are telling it to do something and the compliance is not an option. And that stands for any level of training. Even at home, taking a bath, clipping nails, cleaning ears is not an option. The more you allow the dog to think this would be discomfort the more the dog will act on it. Just like with a toddler, the more you scream because your toddler fell on it's diaper padded behind the more the toddler will scream and cry and look for pity. 
A dog that knows it's rules and boundaries from get go will be a much happier dog. A dog that continually feels frustration between it's humans will either learn how to profit from it or will just shut down.


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

Sunrise said:


> You do need to choose what you feel is best for your dog given your current choices.
> 
> That said, you mentioned 2 things that stand out to me in your original post
> 
> ...


Thank you for your post and especially your addition to your post. Which demonstrates that there are good pros and bad pros out there. It further demonstrates that it is not the method applied but the way the method IS applied that makes the difference in training. 

I do not know the pro the OP is using. The fact that Ella is hesitant in some instances only tells me that she does not feel she will be coddled by this person. From the description I would be inclined to assume that if a person at agility training would take the leash and go and train with Ella while the owner was there, Ella would react in the same way towards that person. 
That of course is an assumption. Nothing that the OP posted before about this pro would indicate to me that this pro is abusive or harsh in training. The owner is the one that has to go by instinct and assess the situation with this pro.


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## Chritty (Aug 17, 2014)

Claudia M said:


> It is not a matter of levels it is a matter of training your dog that you are not asking it to do something you are telling it to do something and the compliance is not an option. And that stands for any level of training.



The bar level I was talking about is in reference to a person's ethics. 

A person could punish a behaviour or action numerous ways to deliver compliance ranging from passive social isolation to down right abuse.


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## ktkins7 (Jul 20, 2013)

Thanks everyone. So here is a combination of trying to answer any questions, a bit about Ella, my current opinion and plans. Let me know if I miss anything regarding questions. I was going to answer while I was at work last night but it would have been too much of a pain typing that much with my phone.

Ella has not been conditioned on the collar yet. With the invisible fence, when the guy that installed it did the training he put the fence all the way up to the maximum, which didn't work out too well. It was installed in June. I tried being persistent, but she just shut down and either parked herself where she was without moving, no matter how high value treats or objects I tried, or she bolted straight back to the house. When the fence trainer came back for the other training sessions she just stayed where she was and wouldn't go in the yard. The fence trainer said to just keep putting her outside and she would eventually venture out into the yard on her own. Which didn't work whether she was by herself or if I was with her. In the fall I gave up on it for now and removed the flags. It took until late fall/early winter for Ella to return to playing in the yard and this is not using the fence collar. During this time I did discovered that she associates the flags with the full blast zap. Even though she'll go in the yard with me now if she sees the pile of flags where I put them on the side of the house you can tell she is nervous of them and keeps her distance.

She hasn't been conditioned on the ecollar yet. That is supposed to take place our next lesson, after I've got recall and sitting at a distance down and if some of this snow ever melts. What the trainer has me doing in the mean time is trying to get Ella to associate good things with the ecollar. So he has me putting the collar on her whenever its time to eat, play time, walk time, going someplace she loves, etc. So she's been wearing it it but it hasn't been turned on yet (other than when it was off of her so I can make sure it worked and see how strong it was).

She does also have a bark collar which I use as needed. I have it set so it starts on the lowest setting and escalates if she continues to bark. Normally, if she barks at all, she will only let out one bark with it on. Ella is not afraid of the bark collar.

As for Ella's interests, so far we have done mostly obedience classes. She doesn't seem to be thrilled with obedience. Part of this may be because I don't find it very fun, but I don't see a spark or a really happy dog when we are doing obedience training. I feel like she's more of just going through the motions.

The reason I'm trying field training is because she absolutely loves retrieving. It began just in the house but now she is just as obsessed when we are outside. She will go either until the human stops or until she's exhausted (which I haven't seen often).

Her other absolute love, besides people, is water. Which I don't know how to use for training other than with retrieving.

I was also thinking of trying nose work with her and dabble with that if she is interested. Finally, I wanted to do a bit of agility with her. The main reason for wanting to do agility is to help build her confidence. The only way I would think about competition with the agility is if she has blast and falls in love with it. I was planning on concentrating more on what both of us enjoy and have fun with. My goals for everything, besides the confidence building with the agility, are to have fun.

Now for my thoughts. They haven't changed much from my original post. I understand where people who are proponents of positive reinforcement are coming from. For everything but field work I'm going to stick with positive reinforcement unless it isn't working (which I've only had with loose leash walking and heeling so far).

For the field work, I'm getting the impression that the ecollar will make learning much easier for training for both me and Ella. At this point I'm going to trust the trainer. If I see something I completely disagree with I'm going to speak up. When we are going to start the collar conditioning I'm going to express my concern about her experience with the invisible fence and my worry about her shutting down. Shutting down is one of the last things that I want her to do. I'm doing field training with her to enjoy it, not to upset her or make her not like something. Hopefully it will work with the collar. Per the trainer I got the Garmin Delta Sport, which has quite a few strength settings on it, as well as just a vibration or just a tone. 

As for her relationship with the trainer, as someone else mentioned, Ella is pretty spoiled and has never really been yelled at or made to do something she doesn't want to. When she is kind of weary of him it has been short lived. Within a minute or two she is back to her usual self and goes to him with her wiggle butt looking for loving if she has the opportunity. And he does give her some loving too, it's not all work and no play. Don't remember if I mentioned this, but when we observed the group lesson I didn't see a single dog that appeared to be fearful of the trainer, or their owners/handlers, in any way at all. If I don't like what I'm seeing, how Ella's reacting, or the relationship with the trainer deteriorating, then I'l reassess and move on from there. And I will definitely put my foot down with the collar and make sure that it does not get jacked up to the max and make her shut down. I do remember when I was talking to the trainer during our first lesson and the ecollar topic came up, he had said that it really depends on the dog. Some dogs only need a very low setting where others need it higher, and he gave me an example with two of the dogs he has trained. So I pray that he will be able to handle Ella's personality correctly and not unintentionally harm her, but I'm going to keep a close eye on it and make sure of the collar setting before anything happens.

I think this covers it, now that I feel like I've written a book on this. Thanks again everyone. Feel free for other comments, opinions, suggestions.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Here's an example of positive only training with children that is common today. Let's take little league for example. Little league games in my area can take 7 hours to play a game. Here's why. Nobody wants to see their kid not get to play. So now little league (in my area) requires that all kids get to bat each inning. So the teams have to go through the entire roster each inning. Outs don't matter anymore. So winning or losing doesn't matter anymore, it's all about how the kids FEEL. Do the kids learn how to play? Yes. Do the kids learn how to win or lose? NO. Are feelings important? Yes. Does real life enter at some point and let the kids down? Yes. My opinion is that the way little league is now played is it's just training, it's not playing a game. Now enter real life, do you get to win everything you do at work? No. At least I don't where I work.

Same with field training. If in training we only allow dogs to feel good, they don't really learn the rules of life and what we expect in a test or trial. Without proper corrections, dogs don't learn as deeply as they would with all positive. Yes all positive is nice and touchy feely, but some corrections are necessary. Because when we go to a test or trial, corrections are not allowed. It is assumed that your dog should be able to complete the test or trial without corrections. Which it should if you trained well.

Take something simple like walking to the line from the blind. At the junior level, your dog can walk to the line on leash. Great, really easy right? For some dogs yes it's easy. For some they go crazy! They smell the birds, they hear the excitement. Hopefully you've trained for all that. If you have a crazy dog, you are going to have to use some corrections. You will need a pinch collar or a choke collar to control your dog in training. It's that simple. With repetition your dog will realize that you are serious and you require X actions when you are going to the line. Yes we all think a clicker and a treat will fix everything. Not with my dogs. They smell those birds, and I don't care what kind of treat you have, a dead bird means way more than anything in the world to my dogs. Clicker or not. Now what positive training method can I use to keep my dogs from eating birds? Think about that. There is no positive method out there that will help me deal with a dog that has a bird in it's mouth and decided to stop part way back to me, to eat the bird. Period. There is NOTHING. There is no treat in the world. There is no clicker training in the world, that is going to stop my dogs from eating birds. The only thing that works is a light nic with an e-collar and force fetch ear pinch training.

So you can believe all positive, but in reality not even kids can be raised all positive.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Alaska7133 said:


> There is no positive method out there that will help me deal with a dog that has a bird in it's mouth and decided to stop part way back to me, to eat the bird. Period. There is NOTHING. There is no treat in the world. There is no clicker training in the world, that is going to stop my dogs from eating birds. The only thing that works is a light nic with an e-collar and force fetch ear pinch training.


If a dog is really intense and really intent on eating a bird, why does a light nic make him stop? Why doesn't he just ignore it? Most of the intense dogs I've known would just shrug off pretty serious discomfort in pursuit of prey or food, so what is it about a light nic that makes it cut through that drive without being excessively painful?

I had assumed, not being a field trainer, that the dog was conditioned to take the nic as an interruption to his attention, that he learned a habit that you could activate with a very low-level reminder. But that's not what you seem to say in your post.

ETA: for full disclosure, I can call my Goldens off eating dead birds (or goose poop, or deer carcass, or live birds, which are much more attractive to them, frankly, than dead), and neither has ever worn an e-collar, choke, or prong, nor have they had their ears pinched. What we do is reward the habit of turning their head away (leave it) or back to me (come) while preventing self-rewarding until the habit is strong enough to break through the instinct. So I obviously disagree with your premise that you can't use an aversive-free method to teach a dog to interrupt his focus on something he enjoys on an instinctual level. But my questions are sincere ones. I honestly don't understand how a light nic on its own has any hope of breaking through to a dog, just as you don't understand how positively reinforced cues can do it (e.g., one would not, as you suggested, change the behavior of a dog who is eating a bird by showing him a treat or clicking).


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## Claudia M (Aug 8, 2012)

tippykayak said:


> If a dog is really intense and really intent on eating a bird, why does a light nic make him stop? Why doesn't he just ignore it? Most of the intense dogs I've known would just shrug off pretty serious discomfort in pursuit of prey or food, so what is it about a light nic that makes it cut through that drive without being excessively painful?
> 
> I had assumed, not being a field trainer, that the dog was conditioned to take the nic as an interruption to his attention, that he learned a habit that you could activate with a very low-level reminder. But that's not what you seem to say in your post.
> 
> ETA: for full disclosure, I can call my Goldens off eating dead birds (or goose poop, or deer carcass, or live birds, which are much more attractive to them, frankly, than dead), and neither has ever worn an e-collar, choke, or prong, nor have they had their ears pinched. What we do is reward the habit of turning their head away (leave it) or back to me (come) while preventing self-rewarding until the habit is strong enough to break through the instinct. So I obviously disagree with your premise that you can't use an aversive-free method to teach a dog to interrupt his focus on something he enjoys on an instinctual level. But my questions are sincere ones. I honestly don't understand how a light nic on its own has any hope of breaking through to a dog, just as you don't understand how positively reinforced cues can do it (e.g., one would not, as you suggested, change the behavior of a dog who is eating a bird by showing him a treat or clicking).


If I remember correctly, you stated it took you over a year for a reliable recall. 

It is true that some dogs will take a "heavier hand" so to speak to break off eating a bird. But it only takes one taste of one bird for that habit to be much harder to break. And it will take another year to break it off if not longer or you could never undo that. 


Not all dogs and not all methods apply for a certain behavior. Darcy showed severe coprophagy when we adopted her. Solved it in less than three months without the e-collar. She still tries to sneak by some poop every now and then. And I intentionally leave the poop in the yard just because of her coprophagia. 

Unfortunately we keep on feeling good about ourselves at the detriment of the dogs. IMHO a properly e-collar conditioned dog is much happier than a dog continuously whistled at or using cues and clickers and attrition.


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

Tippy there is a difference between walking a trail and finding a dead bird or finding one in the yard. Your dog picks it up and you tell them to drop it. 

My dogs are directed to pick up a dead bird in training or at a hunt test. They have it in their mouth. I've told them to put it in their mouths. I've told them to bring it to me. It screams against everything in their body to not do. A well timed nic can have a very big effect on Reilly coming back with a bird rather than eating it. Not every time, but usually.

Tippy, you are not sending your dogs to pick up a dead bird and bring it to you. 

These are 2 completely different situations.

I have found that when a dog starts field training at an older age, they have heard many times in their lives "leave it" or "drop it". Now they are field training and being told to pick up something they could never pick up before. They are sometimes very hesitant. You are going against sometimes many years of training. So sometimes dogs have a big problem with picking up birds. I haven't had that problem personally, but lots of people do have that problem with older dogs starting fieldwork.

Tippy, since your dogs have a strong "leave it" I'm betting that if you wanted to do field training, you might have a hard time getting them to pick up birds on a retrieve.

Dogs are also situational. We all know that learning a sit-stay needs to be performed at various locations to have a lasting training affect. Same with picking up dead birds.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Claudia M said:


> If I remember correctly, you stated it took you over a year for a reliable recall.


You remember incorrectly. And just to save you the next question: with the dogs I have raised myself from puppies, there was never any period of significant unreliability. My experience is that young puppies are easy to train to solid recall, and then there's some regression in most skills during adolescence, and then you get full reliability during adulthood. With dogs who are older, it can take time, but that's highly dependent on the dog's temperament and preexisting habits.



Claudia M said:


> Unfortunately we keep on feeling good about ourselves at the detriment of the dogs. IMHO a properly e-collar conditioned dog is much happier than a dog continuously whistled at or using cues and clickers and attrition.


I agree that dogs who are nagged at can get stressed (as can their owners), regardless of the method used to train. Fortunately, continuous whistling or other continuous cuing is not part of best practice in training a dog to recall or leave it (or anything really), with or without aversives like an e-collar.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Alaska7133 said:


> Tippy, since your dogs have a strong "leave it" I'm betting that if you wanted to do field training, you might have a hard time getting them to pick up birds on a retrieve.


Really? Jax gets told to leave sticks all the time (he carries them on hikes on hot days and I would prefer sometimes that he pant naturally) and it doesn't seem to impact his ability to retrieve them.

I would love an answer to my question about the light nic.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I feel this thread maybe turning into a conversation between me and Alaska and Claudia, which doesn't help ktkins with her questions, so I'm actually going to bow out here. Sorry for asking questions and leaving, but it seems like better manners to get out of the way of the OP. Happy training, everybody.


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## ktkins7 (Jul 20, 2013)

I'm getting the impression that this is one of those debates that could go on forever where people are going to stand firmly by their opinions, and I respect that. I'm going to try to see what works best for me and Ella and go with what I said in my previous post. We'll see how it goes and go from there and I'll make an adjustment as I feel necessary. As mentioned I'm going to try to keep mostly positive. From my limited research and knowing Ella's personality I feel that aspects of the field training would be extremely difficult without using any corrections at all. She's got a stubborn streak that could prove to be difficult if doing only positive. I feel at this point, in my situation, there will be a time and a place for both positive and using corrections.

As for the little league thing mentioned by Alaska, that's really dumb. Kids need to learn that they are going to lose and aren't always going to get their way. You can still learn sportsmanship with having outs and losers. It worked fine for years. If it ain't broke don't fix it. I felt it was reasonable when I played softball and basketball that every kid did get a chance to play but it was still competitive. There was an inning minimum (I think it was two or three) and a minimum number of at bats.

Edit: I also consider it an encouraging sign that every dog I saw when we observed the group lesson looked like it was having a blast. The dogs appeared happy, regardless of whether or not they received corrections. And it didn't appear that there was a massive amount of corrections used by anyone either. Most at this lesson, who were experienced and their dogs were at higher levels, appeared to only have the ecollars either for the sake of having them on or as a backup because I didn't see the senior ones with the remotes at all. Only the more junior dogs that were just learning.


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## KeaColorado (Jan 2, 2013)

Ktkins, this is worth a read. Yes, it's written by a motivational trainer. Personally, I am not a fan of the phrase "positive trainer" because I don't think purely positive training exists, but that's another debate for another time. 

Philosophy, Goals and Techniques | Denise Fenzi

What's your philosophy? What are your goals? What tools and techniques will help you achieve those goals within your philosophy? 

Are you sure Ella is stubborn or is she shutting down from pressure or unclear on the expectations you have? Are you being consistent in your training approach?


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## Alaska7133 (May 26, 2011)

For a Balanced approach to training visit:
www.nadoi.org 
National Association of Dog Obedience Trainers


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## goldlover68 (Jun 17, 2013)

I have all field trained dogs. But, our initial training is with a guy who trains primarily obedience and agility. He has always used the pinch collar, which looks mean, but unlike a choke chain, does not constrict the neck. I have used him for initial obedience with my last 4 Goldens. Then on to more advanced training with a field trainer. Our last Golden, I decided to try 'clicker' training because our normal trainer classes were booked. We went to 3-4 classes and did here the same critical comments about using negative training. But, to me the dogs were not progressing in this class as well as our other classes and our dog for sure was not moving along as fast as she should have. When we spoke to the trainers after class, they suggested a number of ideas, that really did not fit with what we were trying to accomplish.

We ended up going back to our original trainer doing one on one training, even though we prefer a class environment. Of course this worked well for us.

I am not saying these positive methods do not work, I know from others that they do, but we all have our preferences....mine is use what works best for me and my dogs...


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## tpd5 (Nov 7, 2013)

Ktkins I just sent you a message about a training program I think you would really like based on what you are saying.


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## ktkins7 (Jul 20, 2013)

I got the message this time. Thanks!


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