# Talini Goldens



## Enzos_Mom (Apr 8, 2010)

Just going off of what I can see online, I'd stay away. I can only find cardiac and cerf clearances for one of the dogs and no clearances for the other.


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## rhondas (Sep 10, 2010)

Bella doesn't turn 2 until the end of December so they are breeding her without final clearances. She is not even listed in OFA. Finn just turned two in August and when I checked OFA there are no HIP or ELBOW clearance.

I would look elsewhere.


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## bruinball (Sep 26, 2011)

Thanks to everyone for their insight -- any other thoughts from other members of the board? i did some searches and previously people had said that they thought they were reputable breeders. Any insight would be appreciated. thanks!


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## Talini (Sep 26, 2008)

I don't get on here very much, but thank you to a breeder friend who shared with me that I was being discussed. First of all I love my dogs with all my heart & they are my children. I would never breed any of my dogs without their health clearances. I have a huge love & passion for the Golden Retriever breed & my overall goal is to better the breed with health & temperament being of the utmost importance. 

One suggestion when verifying a breeder would be to ask for references such as from past puppy buyers who have actually been to the breeders home, met with the breeder, and have met their dogs. I have a long list of referrals to give to anyone inquiring. Just send me an email & I would gladly send them over. 
My email is: [email protected]

Our stud dog Finn has his final hips & elbows certificate through the BVA (British Veterinary Association), as well as he has OFA prelims with a GOOD rating on hips & elbows. Here is a link to these clearances- New Page 1

All of Bella's clearances have been submitted & we have verbal confirmation that she will pass her hips & elbows with a GOOD or better rating, cardiac is clear, and eye exam is Normal. Official #'s and certificates will be posted on my website, OFA, and CERF in the coming weeks. Here is a link to Bella's x-rays & CERF eye exam certificate- New Page 1
Bella came into season 2 months early, so we consulted with my canine reproduction specialist & my vet who does all my dogs x-rays for OFA. Both agreed that Bella was mature enough & with her confirmed clearances that they would go ahead & breed.


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## Penny & Maggie's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Since she won't be 2 until December, how can she have final clearances???? I was under the belief that they can't be done until they are 2 years old. http://www.grca.org/pdf/all_about/codeofethics.pdf Hope some of our other breeders chime in.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Why not wait until her next heat cycle to bred?? What is the hurry to bred her?


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## MGMF (May 13, 2009)

You may love and care for your dogs that is not what is in question. It is breeding dogs before two and proper clearances. Hips and Elbows under two years old are not a final clearance. Hips and elbows after two are not a final OFA clearance until you receive the certificate or it is posted on OFA. Breeding dogs before two or on prelims is not the right thing to do.


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## luvagolden (Jan 20, 2009)

I have bought 2 girls from Talini (Stacy) and they are wonderful healthy bitches. She is very reputable, and I would not hesitate to go and buy a pup from her. Health clearances on my bitches are all wonderful, one has a borderline good/ excellent on hips which OFA put as good, the other is OFA excellent. Both cleared on elbows, heart and eyes. I think alot of you on this forum like to knock down reputable breeders who put all of their time, $ and energy into making sure they produce great dogs at breed standards. Why not go off on all the terribe ones out there that are backyard and puppy mill breeders instead? To anyone looking for a Golden in the Bay area, do NOT let these other people steer you away from TALINI- they are awesome!!!!! This kind of nonsense is why I stopped going on this forum. Everyone wants to cut everyone else down.  BTW, 2 months early is not too early! As long as you know what the hip/elbow prelims are, if they come into heat any reproductive specialist will tell you it's fine to do so.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

Golden Retriever Club of America - All About Goldens

I think going by the code of ethics, the GRCA recommends waiting to breed a dog until 24 months or older. 

Maybe 2 months prior doesn't make too big a difference, but... especially if you are planning to breed your own goldens, I think it's pretty important to understand the rules set by GRCA. Maybe they aren't mandatory, but they are there for a reason.

I guess I have to wonder what the rush is- especially if the breeder owns both dogs (I'm assuming she does). It's not like the opportunity to breed to the stud or female is going to go away if not bred this year. 



> Why not go off on all the terribe ones out there that are backyard and puppy mill breeders instead?


Uh... I think they do. In a big way. 

I don't believe they are going off on this breeder. Just pointing out the obvious about the clearances.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

luvagolden said:


> I have bought 2 girls from Talini (Stacy) and they are wonderful healthy bitches. She is very reputable, and I would not hesitate to go and buy a pup from her. Health clearances on my bitches are all wonderful, one has a borderline good/ excellent on hips which OFA put as good, the other is OFA excellent. Both cleared on elbows, heart and eyes. I think alot of you on this forum like to knock down reputable breeders who put all of their time, $ and energy into making sure they produce great dogs at breed standards. Why not go off on all the terribe ones out there that are backyard and puppy mill breeders instead? To anyone looking for a Golden in the Bay area, do NOT let these other people steer you away from TALINI- they are awesome!!!!! This kind of nonsense is why I stopped going on this forum. Everyone wants to cut everyone else down.  BTW, 2 months early is not too early! As long as you know what the hip/elbow prelims are, if they come into heat any reproductive specialist will tell you it's fine to do so.


I do not think anybody was putting this breeder down. Just pointing out some obvious things. When were Prelims done? A dog can pass Prelims and fail finals. We are not saying she is a bad person, but just want to know why she could not wait 6 more months. Obviously this is not the first time she has bred with only Prelims from going back to her first post.


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## Enzos_Mom (Apr 8, 2010)

It's really a shame that this person felt the need to chime in with a negative post. Maybe the breeder isn't doing everything correctly, but I at least felt like a reasonable discussion could be had after reading her post, which was actually pleasant in tone and forthcoming. Usually, you see breeders come on here and flip out if they're being discussed at all. I thought maybe this time would be different and everyone could have a civil discussion and maybe learn something new.


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## Talini (Sep 26, 2008)

I am well aware of the GRCA board members and GRCA's reputable breeders over the years who have bred on prelims. Orthopedic Foundation for Animals: Hip Dysplasia As someone pointed out, the GRCA recommends waiting to breed at 24 months. It is not set in stone it is a recommendation. I know of many reputable breeders that have bred with prelims just a month or two shy of 24 months. 

Most European countries abide by their Golden Retriever clubs which a bitch needs to be a minimum of 18 to 20 months of age at the time of the mating. The English Background Goldens in North America state on their website under listing guidelines http://www.englishgoldens.net/pdf/WebsiteListingGuidelines.pdf -

C. Age: The sire and dam of the litters listed* must be at least 18 months of age at the time of the breeding *(preferably two years of age, per GRCA
recommendations).

Every reputable breeder plans out a litter very carefully for when is a good time to raising a litter in their home. Mother nature came a couple months early for Bella & it wasn't my plan to breed her till the end of December. Since we have 5 puppies spoken for with families waiting & the timing to raise a litter at our home during the winter/spring time couldn't be more perfect we went ahead with the mating. I make myself available 24/7 for our puppies & the mom's when they are here. Too many personal things going on with my family & a daughter who will be graduating from high school this June to even think about having a litter at that time frame of Bella's next season.



I carefully consulted with 2 highly respected reproductive vets regarding this & both gave me the OK. I think I will go with my gut instinct & trust the professionals. They have never steered me wrong.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I would be pretty interested to hear what other English breeders, who apparently only follow GRCA guidelines have to say about breeding 18 month old dogs. Or even prior to 18 months as it sounded like in your first comment on this site?

Can you be in "good standing" with the GRCA if you are breeding your dogs well prior to having final clearances on them? Cutting corners so to speak because you have people to sell to?

Does this mean it's OK for everyone to breed their dogs much sooner than recommended? OR does this only apply to English type goldens?


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

I don't think it's my place to be the breeder police since, as you mentioned, the COE are recommendations and not requirements. But I also think that if a breeder that generally operates under the COE is doing something that is contrary to the COE, then they need to own it and not try to make it sound like it's not happening. I am concerned that the website in question states that the bitch has passed all her health clearances "with flying colors" when she truly only has an eye clearance and heart clearance. Stretching the truth on your website doesn't make a lot of sense if you are owning what you're doing. I think that misrepresents the breeding to any average puppy buyer. The language on the website should be changed to be more clear and not represent that the bitch has "passed all her health clearances," when she hasn't.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

My issue is when breeders state the clearances are all there, but when talking about hips and elbows, it is just prelims... State it clearly that the clearances are prelims. After all if you breed on prelims and you believe that there is nothing wrong with it, you should be proud to state it on your website. And we are in the USA, so if you have BVA clearances which IMO are open to some interpretation, you should get OFA clearances. I have never bred one of my bitches on prelim clearances, so far have never bred one to a stud dog with prelim clearances... so I'm not just blowing smoke...


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

IMO, it also matters how old the dog/bitch was when the prelims were done. I know of "reputable" breeders who breed on prelims done on dogs less than one year of age. Not ok in my book at all...


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## golden_eclipse (Apr 1, 2011)

There is no question that prelims done at 23 months (how pointless they would be) is worth a lot more than prelims done at 5 months. 

But I do think its important to clearly state and explain what you mean by the health clearances are all done, via explaining they are not final, and will still need to be done again. I think putting a couple sentences to explain what you have for health clearances that might clarify to potential puppy buyers what you have and how it is different than what is recommended by the National breed club.

Also, I'm not sure how many litters you plan to have with her, but I do think 3 is the usual number for most bitches. Why not wait a year, if the next heat won't work? You can show her and get some titles in the mean time. 

I understand your concern with puppy buyers, but isn't keeping a good reputation more important than fulfilling puppy owners? when I'm sure you can refer them to other fantastic breeders. Also if you explain them that what you are doing is the most ethical thing, I'm sure the puppy owners would not be disappointed, but actually impressed.


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

The vet that took your girls hip rads should be refunding your money. 
I'm not a vet and don't play one on TV and certainly am not talented enough to 'read' the xrays, but geesh even i can see the awful positioning.


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## ragtym (Feb 3, 2008)

LibertyME said:


> The vet that took your girls hip rads should be refunding your money.
> I'm not a vet and don't play one on TV and certainly am not talented enough to 'read' the xrays, but geesh even i can see the awful positioning.


Holy cow - no kidding - that is pretty bad positioning on the hip x-ray. Her right leg is not straight and her knee is pointing to the side instead of up. Her left leg is straight though.


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## White Sand (Oct 18, 2011)

*In regards to the debate of breeding a dog before the age of 2*

I would just like to add that Stacy in my opinion is a wonderful breeder. Like Stacy I breed and show the lighter colored goldens. We however love all goldens we just prefer the lighter color and this is simply a color preference. The United Kingdom color standard is light cream to golden. The lighter color has been a standard color since 1936 in the UK. In America this color is not accepted in the AKC show ring and is even considered a fault. I keep hearing that we should adhere to the GRCA but they state that the extremely pale coats are undesirable and you may read this by clicking here Golden Retriever Club of America - History My question is why should we adhere to the GRCA when they don't list the lighter colors as a standard color nor does the AKC accept these dogs in the show ring. Why are we expected to adhere to your guidelines? Here is the UK standard Index We get bashed over and over by American breeders because we have lighter colored dogs that have been a standard color since 1936 where the golden retriever originated from...... Have you forgotten your roots? Who made the Americans the authority on when and how and what color to breed. As for the age issue since I could go on and on about why I don't adhere to the GRCA is another question that I have for Americans. Here are golden retriever club by-laws for several other countries and they all state that final clearances can be done before the age of 2 and the dog can be bred before the age of 2.
Code of Ethics | The Golden Retriever Club of Canada
http://www.grcwa.com/BreedersDirectoryApplicationForm.pdf
Index
BVA - Canine Health Schemes
I can certainly find more countries that allow breeding a dog before the age of 2. I certainly find nothing wrong with breeding a 20 or 22 month old female and a male as long as he is 18 months. I am sure that the American breeders reading this will completely disagree. Let me just ask this question, why is that the US is the only country that I have found that will not give a final health clearance before the age of 2 nor do they believe in breeding before the age of 2? Are Americans the only authority on this subject? If we are breeding and showing the "lighter" goldens and we choose to adhere to the UK standards and by-laws because "American" won't accept us then why is this such a problem for everyone? I tell you what, stop putting down the lighter colors, let them in the shows in the US (AKC Shows) and put the color as a standard on the GRCA website and then you can talk to "us" lighter colored breeders. I am not trying to be rude or ugly just trying to make a point. I could open another can of worms pertaining to OFA but what is the point. I do all of my testing through the BVA and I will be glad to show anyone my paperwork at any time. Stacy like myself is doing everything that she can to better this breed. We take pride in our dogs and the health of our dogs. I believe that "some" are afraid of change and sometimes change can be good. I love ALL goldens not matter what color they are. I just happen to prefer the lighter tones. I breed my dogs before the age of two. Are we in a hurry as someone asked.....no....some of us just choose to adhere to the UK standard and by-laws rather than the GRCA. Why, I already answered this but just in case someone missed it because GRCA does not accept our preferred color in the standard nor does the AKC accept the lighter color in their shows. 

Kelly Spivey
www.whitesandgoldens.com
I assure you someone some where will have something negative to say about me after this. Do us all favor and just call me rather than put our lives on this forum 334-794-9766 I will gladly talk to anyone any time. I was not put on this earth to please you...I am here for God, my family and my dogs. Frankly I don't care who likes me. I do however get tired of Americans thinking they are the authority and the Golden Retriever. Maybe we could all learn something from the breeders in Europe where the Golden Retriever originated.... You never see an English breeder on here stirring something up. It is always an American breeder or an American breeder now getting into the English lineage. 
I apologize for errors but I actually do have a life and kids and I don't have time to proof read. I have already taken up my family time to write what I did. I am not trying to stir anything up just giving another point of view. Can't we just be left alone... Educate yourselves and realize America is the only country w/ these crazy by-laws. Wait, let me guess goldens mature slower in the US than any other country....I get it now.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Well, the answer is that some growth plates are not closed until 2 years of age. Soooo that has something to do with final clearances. And breeding a bitch at 20 months and a male at 18, what's so special, why the difference? Educate me and the others who feel the same way. And I believe, but maybe I am wrong that the British are much more selective about breeding their dogs, and they frequently export their rejects, correct me if I AM WRONG.....


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Of all my bitches, I can't imagine breeding one before 2 years... I have had early maturing bitches and late ones.... they are still TOO young before 2 years...


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

White Sand, we are in the USA, so the Golden Retriever Club of Canada is incidental...


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I don't think there is any way of responding to that above post... crazy.

*If anything it just adds to the distrust or even dislike of breeders of English type goldens*. And it's unfair because there are responsible and reputable breeders who are not cutting corners, who are following the GRCA recommendations. Those recs are for the health and well-being of the dogs. 

If people are looking for English type goldens, I sure hope they are singling out breeders who are not afraid to wait a little bit longer and get final OFA clearances on their dogs hips, elbows, eyes, heart before making plans to breed. There _are_ good breeders out there.


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## White Sand (Oct 18, 2011)

It depends on who you buy an English Golden Retriever from in Europe. I personally traveled to Holland and attended a dog show while I was there. My main reason for the trip was to pick out my new male puppy which flew with me on the plane home. You say they send their rejects.... Well, I picked my puppy out of 10 other puppies. So stop throwing this around that we have rejects. Not all of us just grab the first dog we find we actually wait for quality. There are only 4 other dogs from this kennel here in the US and she is known for breeding dogs with wonderful health and temperament. She actually attended the National GRCA show in Colorodo. Why is then that the American breeders are not getting into the English lines? If you only get rejects then why do this?? Why not stick to the American lines??? Again, follow your guidelines and we will follow ours. I don't think OFA is the authority on health results that is for sure. I guess american goldens mature and grow differently than every else in the WORLD. Like I said, I knew someone would have something negative to say and I expected that. Why don't we let the dogs speak for themselves and we will have this converstation again in a few years. Let's see which lines have less cancer and less health problems.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

Who's putting down light colored dogs? Did I totally miss something? That's fine if you like English style goldens and think it's ok to breed before age 2. Hey, it's a free country and I can respectfully disagree with you on the appropriate age to breed a dog/bitch. 

But this isn't about whether I prefer English style dogs (seriously, what does that have to do with this at all?) and it really isn't even about whether a dog should be bred on prelims. As I said before, I don't feel the need to be the breeder police. 

To me, *this is about representing that a bitch has "passed all of her clearances with flying colors" when she hasn't. *If the person breeding on prelims was so confident about their decision, then why would they misrepresent that fact on the website? I just checked the page again and it hasn't been changed. I don't have a problem with people doing what they're going to do, but at least own the decision, don't try to make it sound better than it is or make a statement so vague that only a person well versed in breeder speak would understand. That's not fair to your puppy buyers.


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## White Sand (Oct 18, 2011)

I think it is best to agree to disagree. I have said what I need to say and I will let my dogs and offspring speak for themselves. I don't need your approval and I believe that "our" puppy buyers will do their homework and read the by-laws from ALL of the other countries and come to the same conclustion that I have.... America is the ONLY country w/ these crazy by-laws. I also believe that new puppy owners are becoming more educated about the health difference between the American lines and the English lines. Stacy has traveled to Europe more than once and has met several wonderful reputable breeders and I know that she does not have "rejects". We have quality dogs and we have built relationships with top breeders in Europe. You were right about one thing, Europeans are VERY selective when it comes to breeding and we now have these offspring. GREAT offspring to be exact. We will see how this all plays out in a few years. I am looking forward to it


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## kdel (Jul 26, 2011)

Wow, $2000.00 for a puppy without final clearances? Maybe I'm reading the info wrong on the website?

I don't know since I'm just recently trying to learn all I can about how to go about getting a healthy pup. Before joining this forum I had no idea about any of this. I am so glad I joined and continue to learn as much as I can.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

White Sand said:


> I think it is best to agree to disagree. I have said what I need to say and I will let my dogs and offspring speak for themselves. I don't need your approval and I believe that "our" puppy buyers will do their homework and read the by-laws from ALL of the other countries and come to the same conclustion that I have.... America is the ONLY country w/ these crazy by-laws. I also believe that new puppy owners are becoming more educated about the health difference between the American lines and the English lines. Stacy has traveled to Europe more than once and has met several wonderful reputable breeders and I know that she does not have "rejects". We have quality dogs and we have built relationships with top breeders in Europe. You were right about one thing, Europeans are VERY selective when it comes to breeding and we now have these offspring. GREAT offspring to be exact. We will see how this all plays out in a few years. I am looking forward to it


I'm confused. No one is talking about English lines and the pros and cons of the style of golden. ETA: nevermind, I just saw that a comment was made above. My apologies. I'm not sure it's necessary to insult all of our "American" dogs though....a bit rude for your second post on the forum. IMO. I happen to like my American bred dogs....I just don't insult people why have a differing opinion. And my question below still stands...

Do you not agree that it's ethically questionable to represent that a dog has "passed her clearances with flying colors" when she hasn't? Please tell me you don't think that's ok.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> Why is then that the American breeders are not getting into the English lines? If you only get rejects then why do this?? Why not stick to the American lines???


This is something I'm a little confuzzled about since I wasn't born yesterday... I could be wrong, but I think that American breeders have been dabbling in English lines for a while. 20+ years. At least I knew somebody who deliberately purchased English type goldens for her breeding lines. From somebody who imported her goldens from England. I know going back 8 or 9 generations in my own (American bred) dog's pedigree and I can find common lines with those dogs. I assume it's the same for a lot of goldens who have similar breeding to my guy.

The only thing new or what you seem to be getting at is importing and breeding only european type goldens vs crossing them with American lines.


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## fudgedog (Feb 13, 2011)

I just dont like the excuse that people do it differently in other parts of the world. People also breed dogs with no clearances in other parts of the world but that is not acceptable here.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

fudgedog said:


> I just dont like the excuse that people do it differently in other parts of the world. People also breed dogs with no clearances in other parts of the world but that is not acceptable here.


Exactly...

And why would you argue against extra cautions which are in the best interest of your dogs?


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## White Sand (Oct 18, 2011)

I wrote in regards to breeding before the age of two if you refer back to my original title..... I gave reasons as to why some English breeders do not adhere to the GRCA but rather we adhere to the UK standard. It is all about the COLOR...The lighter tones are not accepted in the AKC show ring and GRCA states in their golden retriever standard that the pale coloring is undesirable. Why would we adhere to your by-laws when you don't accept us?? Why don't you accept us ....I will say again....GRCA states that paler colors are undesirable...AKC does not accept our dogs...Hello, this sounds like color to me. Breeding before the age of 2 is accepted EVERYWHERE but the US......Why?????? Don't tell me because Dr. Keller at OFA is smarter than everyone else... I have talked to him trust me he is not. He is the reason I switched to BVA BVA - Canine Health Schemes
I can't for one moment believe that the Doctors everywhere else in the world are not as smart as the US Doctors and research teams. BVA wants 2 elbow x-rays not one...why because it is a better health scheme than OFA. 
I am done, say what you want about me I have given the reason for breeding before the age of two. Like it or don't. I know what I am doing and I know where I am going. I will have quality dogs and there are many wonderful lines coming to the US. Not rejects great dogs.


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## SheetsSM (Jan 17, 2008)

Just trying to learn, but how come these imports if they're English don't have UKC registrations? Why FCI?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> GRCA states that paler colors are undesirable...


But if I understand this... the stance on color in the GRCA is not that different than the KC? If you read the breed standards? Or that is something that Shalva and other English type breeders have been stating forever on this forum while trying to gain respect for the dogs they choose to breed. 

The difference is that the lighter colors (that are within the standard) don't really win in the show rings. Although that might be changing?

At the trials I've gone to I have seen THIS dog, who is a CH: 




I have no idea if his breeder started breeding him prior to 24 months, but she apparently believes in getting the OFA clearances on her dogs. You can look him up on K9data and offa.org.

And American type breeders are using him for their lines... 

Halltree Golden Retrievers Puppies


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## White Sand (Oct 18, 2011)

I thought we were talking about breeding before the age of two. I don't know anything about passing w/ flying colors? Sorry, I am confused... I came in on the tail end of this forum (my first time on this forum). I only read a couple of the post prior to mine. Sorry, I am confused now. Please elaborate....


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Wow!!! Obviously you have a problem with American lines!! You even think that english are healther...not one of those!!
You try to compare every aspect of english to american....do you ever see that on an american breeder's website?? I have not! Why are you trying to sell your dogs so much? If people want a lighter color one, they will come. Why the need to compare? It is almost like you are holding a grudge against GRCA, so you will not listen to any suggestions from them. Oh and by the way "english goldens typically do not have as many HD or ED dogs" from her website! Seriously??
How long have you been breeding to know what you are doing?
English Cream Golden Retrievers, Pure English Cream Golden Retrievers, White Golden Retrievers


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## White Sand (Oct 18, 2011)

Retriever (Golden) Breed Standard - The Kennel Club UK Standard Any shade of gold or cream, neither red nor mahogany. A few white hairs on chest only, permissible. 

Cream being the color of our dogs 
I could be wrong but pale and cream are about the same. If you take one of our dogs into the show ring they either get excused or they just don't place at all. 

Golden Retriever Club of America - History GRCA Standard 
_*Color*_ -- rich, lustrous golden of various shades. Feathering may be lighter than rest of coat. With the exception of graying or whitening of face or body due to age, any white marking, other than a few white hairs on the chest, should be penalized according to its extent. Allowable light shadings are not to be confused with white markings. Predominant body color which is either extremely pale or extremely dark is undesirable. Some latitude should be given to the light puppy whose coloring shows promise of deepening with maturity. Any noticeable area of black or other off-color hair is a serious fault.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

White Sand said:


> I thought we were talking about breeding before the age of two. I don't know anything about passing w/ flying colors? Sorry, I am confused... I came in on the tail end of this forum (my first time on this forum). I only read a couple of the post prior to mine. Sorry, I am confused now. Please elaborate....


Look at your friend's website. It says her bitch "passed all her clearances with flying colors." But the bitch is not yet 2 and she is using the OFA, so she hasn't "passed" her hips or elbows. She prelimed good on her hips and normal on her elbows. That's great, so did my boy Jack, but I would never say he "passed his clearances with flying colors." I would say "he prelimed good on his hips and normal on his elbows, but we're taking him in for his final clearances next week." (Which is true since he turned 2 today.) I don't think it's fair to puppy buyers to misrepresent that fact. And I also don't understand why someone wouldn't just own what they were doing. I've said it 3 times now, I'm not trying to be the breeder police. I just think people need to be up front with puppy buyers so they can make an educated decision. Here is the page: New Page 1


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## jagmanbrg (Jan 4, 2011)

Per English Cream Golden Retrievers, Pure English Cream Golden Retrievers, White Golden Retrievers....

*"The health differences* between the English Golden and the American Golden are staggering. It is the greatest reason why a serious dog seeker will consider purchasing an English Golden over an American Golden. The money saved in purchasing an American Golden pales in comparison to the vet bills accumulated over the dog's lifespan. "

*lol...ok*

"Please keep in mind that even though our dogs look white I do not have "Rare White Goldens". We do however have the English/British/European type golden retrievers. Any breeder that advertises Rare White Goldens should be avoided."

*Look at the page name....English Cream Golden Retrievers..... and 2500.00 for limited reg? I could care less what people charge for their puppies, but in my book 2500.00 would have to constitute something being rare?* *So by your logic people interested in a "English" golden should stay away from you?*


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## White Sand (Oct 18, 2011)

I love this dog...He has wonderful lineage Five generation pedigree: Am./Can. CH. Goldtreve Sydney Traveler as well as a background for good hips. I don't know this breeder but I sure do like her stud dog. Where has she shown him?


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

White Sand said:


> I love this dog...He has wonderful lineage Five generation pedigree: Am./Can. CH. Goldtreve Sydney Traveler as well as a background for good hips. I don't know this breeder but I sure do like her stud dog. Where has she shown him?


I've seen him here in Michigan... AKC shows. 

His coloring is one thing, but he's really nice to look at over all.  

And those American breeders like Halltree are using him in their lines.


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## White Sand (Oct 18, 2011)

I actually copied and pasted my FAQ page from another breeder about 5 years ago with their permission and I have not gone in to edit into my own words. You have just inspired me to do so this week . I actually don't agree with those parts that you mentioned. I do agree with the cancer sections because the study comes from GRCA and UK. My links and info page is closer to my beliefs White Sand Goldens:English Cream Golden Retrievers, English Creme Golden Retrievers If you notice none of the info from the FAQ page is on this page because I actually wrote the link and info page. I did not write the health section on the FAQ page. It does not even sound like me. The FAQ page will be changed this week.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

White Sand said:


> Five generation pedigree: Am./Can. CH. Goldtreve Sydney Traveler


I think this boy is lovely...I don't care what style he is


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## ragtym (Feb 3, 2008)

Kelly, you honestly cannot say that your English-type dogs are healthier than their American counterparts. I'm sure you remember this bitch: Pedigree: White Sands Starlight Ice Diva - she has a littermate who is Moderately dysplastic in one hip and you dropped her from your breeding program because she didn't meet your requirements. Was she dysplastic as well? The males' owner also claims to have "pure healthy English lines" while their main (imported) sire has sired 2 different moderately dysplastic pups out of two different bitches. These bitches are unrelated to the dysplastic stud dog but are also out of English-type lines.

So I'm sorry but I disagree with your assertion that English-type Goldens are healthier. Go to the OFA database and pull up a list of the dogs that received Moderate ratings on hips. Currently, there are 25 total records. Of those, 7 are easily identifiable as either imports or being bred from imports. 

When someone uses a rating system from outside THIS country (speaking of the USA here), it raises alarms with some people. FCI states that dogs that are imported from other countries should get their clearances from the country that they are imported to. The GRCC CoE includes a line that states that they will accept an "Appropriate clearance from the dog's country of residency". There are several breeds under the BVA/KC breeding scheme that have "Bitches not to produce a litter under two years of age" as a recommendation, including Flat Coats and Nova Scotia Duck Tollers. If it is universally believed (outside the US) that it's okay to breed a bitch under 2 years of age, why would that be recommendation in some breeds in the UK?


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## ragtym (Feb 3, 2008)

> If you take one of our dogs into the show ring they either get excused or they just don't place at all.


Just a quick note here, dogs can be excused for behavior, lameness, lack of merit, or changing of appearance. They are not supposed be excused only because of their color. It's considered a fault just like a narrow front or an open coat - neither of those things are a reason to excuse a dog.

If a judge does excuse you, they have to write the reason in their book. If you are concerned that you have been excused for color, check the book after the judge turns it in and see what reason was given. If it's for color, then you have a legitimate complaint for the AKC.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

Have you read GRCA link that you supplied??? I just skimmed over the WHOLE thing and nowhere in there does it survey English Vs. American lines. It was a survey done years ago on golden retrievers....not type or color. Correct me if I am wrong here, where does it state that English are healthier?


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## Enzos_Mom (Apr 8, 2010)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> Look at your friend's website. It says her bitch "passed all her clearances with flying colors." But the bitch is not yet 2 and she is using the OFA, so she hasn't "passed" her hips or elbows. She prelimed good on her hips and normal on her elbows. That's great, so did my boy Jack, but I would never say he "passed his clearances with flying colors." I would say "he prelimed good on his hips and normal on his elbows, but we're taking him in for his final clearances next week." (Which is true since he turned 2 today.) I don't think it's fair to puppy buyers to misrepresent that fact. And I also don't understand why someone wouldn't just own what they were doing. I've said it 3 times now, I'm not trying to be the breeder police. I just think people need to be up front with puppy buyers so they can make an educated decision. Here is the page: New Page 1



Happy birthday to Jack!!


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## White Sand (Oct 18, 2011)

Read the two sites on cancer that I posted earlier. I never said GRCA made a comparision. If this is all going back to my FAQ page I have already explained that....I don't feel the need to explain it again. I hope you all have a wonderful evening and a great day tomorrow. I would love to stay and chat but I have a full day tomorrow. As much fun as this has been I will surlely miss out on the bashing that is to come. Enjoy!


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

No one is bashing anyone! Just trying to find the logic behind the idea of English are healthier than American. U stated that u need to change your FAQ page, but u believe the cancer part of it. That is why I went back to read what it said....still do not understand where u are getting this knowledge from. Please enlighten me.


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## bruinball (Sep 26, 2011)

I am the OP and didn't realize my question would stir such a debate. That said, I am a little confused after not checking my post for a few days. A lot of topics being thrown around!

What I can take away is that there appear to be differing views on what is the best age to breed bitches and there is some debate about whether Talini does the right thing.

I will need to re-read all the posts again to get all the facts/arguments straight!


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## glitterbelle (Oct 19, 2011)

kdel said:


> Wow, $2000.00 for a puppy without final clearances? Maybe I'm reading the info wrong on the website?
> 
> I don't know since I'm just recently trying to learn all I can about how to go about getting a healthy pup. Before joining this forum I had no idea about any of this. I am so glad I joined and continue to learn as much as I can.


 
I was told $2,500.00...


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## annef (Feb 23, 2008)

As a UK breeder I would like to add to this debate. Firstly it is true that BVA clearances (hip and elbow) are done at one year of age and eye certs can be done earlier but need to be done in the previous 12 months before the bitch is bred from. Different countries have varying standard for hip scoring and I bred a bitch that was 23 under BVA but much lower in her own country.She bred on very soundly.
I would also like to say that I would never export a reject and neither would any of my breeder friends Our reputation is far too important and the dogs can have great homes over here so why export? Annef


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## annef (Feb 23, 2008)

As to the health of the dogs all goldens descend from 4 matings so it would be very hard to prove that dogs from one country were healthier than others. I know of one kennel in Norway where the dogs are very long lived and the breeder will not let her dogs go very far from where she lives so perhaps it is to do with climate/environment as well?
Many breeders are very concened about exporting dogs to the US because of the high volume breeders that produce pale goldens and it breaks my heart to see some of my breeding behind some of the dogs through an export from another country and is one reason I am very reluctant to export except to very close friends. I have one pet dog exported to the US - fabulous home shown in the FCI shows once a year for fun, goes training, hiking and has a great life . Do I want to export a puppy to be bred from- don't think so! Annef


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## White Sand (Oct 18, 2011)

I would just like to say that I will change my website this week in regards to the health differences. I did not write my FAQ page and therefore I will go in a re-word it into my own words. As for the cancer debate I do know that there is less cancer in golden retrievers in Europe. Why, I don’t know. Annef may be right that it could be environmental. I do know that a top American breeder here in the states contacted a friend in Europe in regards to bringing in other lines because he wanted to cut down on the cancer cases here in the US. The bottom line is this, we all need to do something to cut down on cancer cases in golden retrievers but how to go about it is surely over my head. I apologize if I offended anyone and I will correct my website.

Now, as for the debate on BVA versus OFA: I can only speak from my personal experience and why I choose to use BVA over OFA. My stud dog Hemingway received a mild dysplasia on his prelims reviewed by Dr. Keller @ OFA. I sent the x-ray to the breeder and he told me these were good hips but bad position. We then sent the x-ray by email to several vets in Europe and 3 vets here in the states. Everyone agreed that the position was not good. I decided to work with Dr McBride from Sumpter Animal Hospital in Wildwood, FL. She reviewed the x-ray and confirmed with all of the other vets that the position was off and Hemingway had good hips. I then called Dr. Keller and I asked him if I should re-do the x-rays and did he think that the position was bad. Dr. Keller’s response was that the position was perfect. Well, if he can’t tell a good position from a bad position then I want to do business somewhere else. After making my 5 hour trip to Wildwood, FL for a second set of x-rays and getting the results back from BVA we learned that Hemingway has 0 elbows and 2:4 hips. BVA has a panel of specialist that reviews 9 different sections of the hip and grades each hip individually. BVA requires 2 elbow x-rays one at 110 degree angle and one at a 45 degree angle (I believe this is correct). OFA only requires 1 elbow x-ray. When you receive the final report from OFA it comes from a panel of 3 vets and each look at the hips and then grade them. If the panel comes back with 2 fairs and 1 good then the grade will be fair. If it comes back with 2 fairs and 1 borderline then you will get a score of fair. From my personal experience I choose not to use OFA because if Dr. Keller can’t determine a bad position then how am I suppose to trust that the other 3 Doctors are evaluating correctly? Again, my preference to use BVA and why. 

As for the debate on breeding before the age of 2 this is just my opinion and I do adhere to the guidelines of the Europeans. I am using the BVA health scheme and I adhere to UK standards and by-laws. You can judge me and say that I am wrong but it will not change the way I am doing things. I may wait until they are 21/2 who knows. As of now, I have only had 2 litters in the past 6 years. The first few dogs that I had I did not breed because they were not up to my standard. Do I have room for improvement? Of course, don’t we all strive to improve on a daily basis? Have I made mistakes? Yes, didn’t everyone when they first started out. I have not been breeding for 30 years so I have a lot to learn. What I do have on my side are wonderful mentors in Europe that I love to learn from. 

I just returned from the GRCA Nationals in Conyers, GA. A friend of mine entered her cream golden and did not place. She did not expect to but did it to get exposure. We have to start somewhere. I noticed 5 other dogs in the shows and 1 was excused due to being cream. He was not excused for behavior or any of the other reasons mentioned earlier. 

I will continue in next response


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## White Sand (Oct 18, 2011)

I currently show in the FCI and I plan to take Hemingway to Canada when he turns 3 or 4. My husband and I are planning to attend Crufts 2012 so that we can watch these dogs move in person. When I attended the show in Leiden, Holland I felt as though I were meeting movie stars lol. I had seen these dogs on websites and to finally meet them in person felt as though I were meeting a star. Funny, I don’t get excited if I see a movie star somewhere but you put me in a room full of Champion dogs from Europe and I melt like butter. I noticed how nice and friendly the breeders were and willing to answer my questions. I found them to be very kind and they even cheered for each other in the show ring whether they won or not. Another reason I love the English lines is because not only do my dogs come from conformation champions but they also have hunt test champions in their pedigree which the golden was originally intended to do. They are working dogs after all. Not only do I get beauty but my dogs love to work and my son enjoys teaching them to retriever birds. Wow, best of both worlds for me. I love all goldens but I just happen to fall in love with certain dogs in Europe. This is a preference for me that is all. I love all dogs. In fact, I love animals period. 

Now for my price…I went back and forth and these dogs in the US usually sell from about 2000.00 to 2500.00. In Europe some of these dogs cost from 1300.00 -1800.00 euro and that converts to 2488.00 us dollars on 1800.00 euro. Shipping is anywhere from 880.00 to 1500.00 depending on where the dog is coming from. I know for a fact that members of the GRCA that breed these type dogs sell their dogs from 2000.00 to 2500.00 depending on who you talk to. ½ American ½ English do not seem to sell for this but the 100% European lines do go from about 2000.00 -2500.00. I am sure someone will bash me for this but like the saying goes “You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time”.
To Annef: Thank you for all that you do and I truly love these amazing dogs! 
I hope you all have a wonderful day and I apologize to anyone whom I offended!


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

White Sand, your explanation seems valid... but if it were me, I would then do as the GRCA recommends and do the orthopedic testing at 24 months in keeping with their COE. I did see that BVA requires many more radiographs...


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

It is my belief that if you reside in the US...you should belong to the breed club of the Country in which you live and adhere to that breed club's Code Of Ethics - or higher.

I co-own a Canadian bred dog...co-owner lives in Canada, I live in the US.
In theory, I could have bred him at 18 months after he passed his clearnaces.
However I live in the US!! So following the COE of the Golden Retriever Club of AMERICA...is the most logical, and, in my opinion, ethical choice.

Not to mention that I also personally beleive that dogs should have to 'prove themselves' in a publicly verifiable way to justify being bred.


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## White Sand (Oct 18, 2011)

Sally, I do not and will not use OFA and I gave a valid reason as to why.
http://www.bva.co.uk/public/documents/ED_PN_2011.pdf

Please refer to number 3 in the procedure notes from about link
I am not you I am me....therefore I believe that BVA is a better scoring system and I believe it is a better scheme therefore I believe it can produce healthier dogs than the OFA health scheme. This is my opinion why do you feel the need to change my mind? I do not trust OFA whether it is a prelim or final score. Again, my opinion and I will stick to BVA and UK Standards and by-laws. This is my preference that is all.


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## White Sand (Oct 18, 2011)

Not only are my dogs entered into conformation but they will also be involved with hunt test. As for proving themselves both dogs from both of my litters were FCI International Champions. This is the best we can do in the US at this time. Look, hate me, disagree with me, don't repect me or anything else that you feel the need to do. I have my views and maybe if I am lucky enough my husband will get a job transfer to England. Until then, I have given my reasons. Maybe I feel this stronly because I had family in England (until they passed away) and my grandfather is from England. I now have family here in VA that moved here from England. I prefer their ways when it comes to breeding and showing and these are my beliefs.


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## LibertyME (Jan 6, 2007)

I can appreciate that.
Have you considered doing both?
So you can 
A. prove your point...
B. have your data in a publicly verifiable database?



White Sand said:


> Sally, I do not and will not use OFA and I gave a valid reason as to why.
> http://www.bva.co.uk/public/documents/ED_PN_2011.pdf
> 
> Please refer to number 3 in the procedure notes from about link
> I am not you I am me....therefore I believe that BVA is a better scoring system and I believe it is a better scheme therefore I believe it can produce healthier dogs than the OFA health scheme. This is my opinion why do you feel the need to change my mind? I do not trust OFA whether it is a prelim or final score. Again, my opinion and I will stick to BVA and UK Standards and by-laws. This is my preference that is all.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

White Sand, I wrote nothing about switching to OFA... I wrote that I thought you had a valid explanation... it was not an attack...


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## White Sand (Oct 18, 2011)

Hmmmm, I have not considered that. I have on the other hand contacted Sandra w/ BVA and they are working on a database for our scores. Until then I guess I should scan in the docs that I have from BVA which came from my vets office. You can not get applications from BVA on line like you can from OFA. The docs have to be mailed to the vets office and then when BVA is done scoring they mail the docs back to the vet not the owner. Also, BVA will not give the owner the scores you have to wait until the vet receives them. After my converstation w/ Dr. Keller I just did not trust OFA. I will email Sandra and see if there has been any progress on a database for those that reside in the US. This would be a great tool in my opinion. Especially with more and more breeders using the BVA scheme. I will let you know what I learn. Now that I have a serious headache from not only writing on this forum but we have had roofers pounding away since 6:30 this morning and the dogs and I are not having a good time I can tell you that. We are off to the park for some needed fun and to get away from all of this pounding....Geez, why do they start so early??? I know, because of the heat and I can't blame them there. uggggg, it is really loud here right now.


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## HiTideGoldens (Dec 29, 2009)

White Sand, 

I'm still curious as to your opinion on the representations of the breeder that you came on here to defend. (I posted the link in a previous post but here it is again: New Page 1.) Do you think it's acceptable to represent that a dog has "passed her clearances with flying colors" when she is being bred on OFA prelims and does not actually have a hip or elbow clearance?


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## White Sand (Oct 18, 2011)

Sally, you are right you did not say anything about the OFA. I read the part about orthopedic and thought OFA for some reason. I apogize.... I can't think straight with these darn roofers. Please tell me this won't take too many days. I am going nuts down here. The dogs are not sure what is going on and they don't like it one bit...


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Goldens do not like loud noises, for sure. When we built our house, our original goldens wouldn't get out of the car when the nail guns were going.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

As everyone else said, the positioning on Talini's Fire And Ice rads is not good at all....


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## hvgoldens4 (Nov 25, 2009)

White Sand said:


> I just returned from the GRCA Nationals in Conyers, GA. A friend of mine entered her cream golden and did not place. She did not expect to but did it to get exposure. We have to start somewhere. I noticed 5 other dogs in the shows and 1 was excused due to being cream. He was not excused for behavior or any of the other reasons mentioned earlier.
> 
> I will continue in next response


I do agree with what you are saying about the OFA. They will accept less than wonderful positioning for xrays and do not send them back to the vets to be re-done. I know many people who have re-done hips with better positioning and gotten higher readings.

I was also at the National and did not see any dogs who were excused. I was showing in the Am-bred class myself and there was a very light colored dog in front of me. The dog did not place or make the cuts, but he was not excused. In the Am-bred class there were 40 some dogs who were shown, so many of them did not recieve placements. 

This dog, Piper(actually he is lighter in person than the photo on K9data shows)Pedigree: GCH CH Stonecrest's Super Cruiser RN, JH was actually select dog at the National and he is very light in color so I don't think dogs were being penalized for their color. Also, if you look at :kinghorn Dave and Joyce have been involved in the sport for many years. They just finished their very young boy, Patton who is very light in color. He was also shown at the National and was not excused for anything and as I stated previously, does have his AKC championship pretty much from the puppy classes. Photos of the dog that Judy Kadahl finished last year have already been posted and again, he is very light in color but Judy finished him rather quickly. If the dogs are of good quality, you will find that the color is secondary.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

hvgoldens4 said:


> I do agree with what you are saying about the OFA. They will accept less than wonderful positioning for xrays and do not send them back to the vets to be re-done. I know many people who have re-done hips with better positioning and gotten higher readings.


Jennifer - (this might be a dumb question), but after getting a mild-dysplasia rating from the OFA, can you have them redone and re-sent and get a Good reading? Or is that mild-dysplasia rating permanent? 

I just wanted to say I appreciate White Sands being willing to discuss all this. Unlike another thread I was gaping at last night, I think she has shown herself to be somebody I'd be willing to work with if I didn't still have a slight concern about breeding on hip xrays done prior to 20 months and/or breeding prior to 24 months. 

I do completely understand the issue with crooked xrays and I know my own guy's breeder flipped out in a huge way when she saw hip xrays I had forwarded to her. 

She - as well as other breeders I've spoken to - are very selective of the vets they use for the ofa xrays. In fact, one breeder I spoke to last week recommended I only go through an ortho specialist here in Michigan to have my guy's xrays redone or have future xrays on other dogs done. 

One breeder I know of in particular who has a dog with excellent hips is adamant about never going to a general practice vet for these xrays - this because they tried telling her that her dog had severe dysplasia based on bad positioning. The dog was 12-15 months old at the time.


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## White Sand (Oct 18, 2011)

Pedigree: Cruft's Winner 2011, BOB Linirgor Mactavish

Pedigree: Sh Ch Ramchaine Green Glow By Fenwood 8 CC's, 5 BOB's, 7 RCC's Group 2 JW

Shardanell Golden Retrievers

Here are a few dogs that I just love. Don't get me wrong there are many I love and that is one of my problems. So many beautiful dogs. Anyway, when I look at these cruft winners they just don't look like Patton to me. Do they to you? The Ramchaine dog would probably not place in the US show due to color but she is a beautiful dog. I just think they look different. Am I wrong? We were at the show on.......Weds at 1:00 (had to think). One of the guys w/ a very light dog was excused or at least that is what he said. Maybe he did not make the cut and thought he was excused who knows. Anyway, none of the really light dogs placed or made the final cut. The daughter to this dog was at the show and she moves beautifully and here is a video of her 



 dogs this light will not place or make the cut right now. Who knows maybe one day it will change. I love the light colors and I believe she has beautiful movement. Here is the video that I took at the GRCA Nationals. She may kill me for posting it lol


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

I could be wrong, but those dogs look like they are golden enough where depending on where you show or which judge you show under... they would do fine?


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## White Sand (Oct 18, 2011)

Megora yes you can re-do x-rays and resubmit to OFA. However, I did not do this because I was truly disturbed that Dr. Keller stated the position was perfect when several other people clearly stated that he was not positioned correctly. That is when I drove to Home Page Dr. McBride's office in FL to have the x-rays retaken. I only attached this link because this lady knows how to take x-rays and I love her....She does it so quickly and puts the x-rays on the light and says these hips are going to be -----. By george she ususally nails it.. Love love love her. She is wonderful w/ reproduction as well. One day, I am going to ship in frozen semen from Europe and I will use her for my frozen AI. If anyone lives near FL I highly recommend her for your x-rays.


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## White Sand (Oct 18, 2011)

Let me ask this question, do any of you know which judges might be more apt to look at these lighter colored goldens? I would be very interested in finding a handler that might help me in the AKC shows. I do not do well handling myself because I get nervous and then make my dogs nervous. My first show the judge called me back and held my hand. She said, "calm down and start over. I am not going to bite you". I was fine after that but the ring just scares me for some reason. I am the type that needs a handler lol. Who knows maybe as I mature in this venture I will get better w/ handling.


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## Tanyac (Jun 18, 2008)

Hi Whitesand
Don't want to really get into the debate on this thread, I just wanted to say that my newest family member Flo, is a daughter of Sh Ch Shardanell Talk O' The Town at Ipcress, and is a lovely cream colour BUT I didn't breed the litter to keep a cream coated puppy. The litter had various shades, as my bitch is a lovely mid gold colour. I just love Teddy & am thrilled that we had the chance to use him as stud .

Also, I saw Sh Ch Ramchaine Green Glow by Fenwood a little while back and must say I was absolutley captivated by her! She is a stunning bitch, one which I couldn't take my eyes off! Loved everything about her 

I would say though re colour here in the UK, I haven't ever spoken to a breeder here who breeds specifically to get light coloured dogs. I do take objection to breeders elsewhere who will only breed a very light cream Golden and market them as UK or European. Don't they know that Goldens here come in almost every shade too? And with our Flo's father Teddy, you know his father is (cough cough!) a lovely dark shade of Gold!!


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

You can resubmit rads and get a better rating even if it was read out as dysplastic. Or you can do what I did with Laney... OFA Fair, resubmit, get a unilaterally mildly dysplastic rating which erased the previous clear.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

White Sand said:


> Let me ask this question, do any of you know which judges might be more apt to look at these lighter colored goldens? I would be very interested in finding a handler that might help me in the AKC shows. I do not do well handling myself because I get nervous and then make my dogs nervous. My first show the judge called me back and held my hand. She said, "calm down and start over. I am not going to bite you". I was fine after that but the ring just scares me for some reason. I am the type that needs a handler lol. Who knows maybe as I mature in this venture I will get better w/ handling.


 I am in the next state over. Are u going to the Montgomery or Huntsville show next month?


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## Ljilly28 (Jan 22, 2008)

goldenjackpuppy said:


> Look at your friend's website. It says her bitch "passed all her clearances with flying colors." But the bitch is not yet 2 and she is using the OFA, so she hasn't "passed" her hips or elbows. She prelimed good on her hips and normal on her elbows. That's great, so did my boy Jack, but I would never say he "passed his clearances with flying colors." I would say "he prelimed good on his hips and normal on his elbows, but we're taking him in for his final clearances next week." (Which is true since he turned 2 today.) I don't think it's fair to puppy buyers to misrepresent that fact. And I also don't understand why someone wouldn't just own what they were doing. I've said it 3 times now, I'm not trying to be the breeder police. I just think people need to be up front with puppy buyers so they can make an educated decision.


I have to agree with this in a huge way. Just because my 22 month old had good/normal prelims in no way justifies me saying he passed his clearances with flying colors. It would be a flatout lie- probably close to fraud. It is best to say Prelims Good if that is what the facts are.


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## MGMF (May 13, 2009)

My girl had her x-rays done and they came back in a terrrible position. Was upset that it would take her to be put under again to have them redone. I sent them in to OFA hoping for a good score before I would consider do them again. Asking OFA about them they were in agreement of the bad position but was given a score of GOOD. She was given an Excellent in the ratings but the bad side was all good. Could I send them in again in hopes the other side that was layed out wrong would come back Excellent, sure but did not feel to put them under again was worth it. Hips could go anyway and yes they are subject to the rating vets discretion but breeding without a final passing rating is important. I think if you want to sell puppies in the US you should follow US guildlines.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

I think she is trying to say she has final clearances according to BVA. That is what she is going by...not sure though??


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## White Sand (Oct 18, 2011)

Hi Tanyac, 
Maybe I should correct myself when I say lighter coloring. I just prefer the colors of the UK standard. Please read my home page of my website www.whitesandgoldens.com and I give examples of the different shades in Europe. Xanthos Black Thorn is one handsome boy in my opinion and he has darker shades of gold. I am more concerned with health than I am color. Like I have said, I love all golden retrievers but I really like the English type better. I can't wait to have the opportunity to come to Crufts and actually watch these dogs move. 

To Kayfard: I was not planning to but I will go to Mongomery if someone will be there that might talk to me about showing my dogs. Are there going to be judges there that might accept these dogs openly? There was an AKC judge that was at the last FCI show I attended and she just loved Hemingway. I need to look and get her name and find out where she will be judging in the future.


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## GoldenMum (Mar 15, 2010)

I feel for the OP, who's thread has been highjacked!


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

GoldenMum said:


> I feel for the OP, who's thread has been highjacked!


But it could be educating for somebody looking for a English type golden retriever.


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## annef (Feb 23, 2008)

I find amazing really that these dogs are described as 'english' type and yet not one dog in the kennels I have looked at has been imported from the UK Annef


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

annef said:


> I find amazing really that these dogs are described as 'english' type and yet not one dog in the kennels I have looked at has been imported from the UK Annef


:curtain: 

It's why I've been trying to use the term "type" vs saying English goldens or English bred. Which I used to say prior to joining GRF and learning a few things.


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## ragtym (Feb 3, 2008)

With regard to the "excused" part...what may have happened is that the judge picked a group of dogs that he/she wanted to see more of and "excused" the rest meaning that they could leave the ring because they were no longer in contention.


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

ragtym said:


> With regard to the "excused" part...what may have happened is that the judge picked a group of dogs that he/she wanted to see more of and "excused" the rest meaning that they could leave the ring because they were no longer in contention.


Very good point!


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## Selli-Belle (Jan 28, 2009)

White Sand said:


> The United Kingdom color standard is light cream to golden. The lighter color has been a standard color since 1936 in the UK. In America this color is not accepted in the AKC show ring and is even considered a fault. I keep hearing that we should adhere to the GRCA but they state that the extremely pale coats are undesirable and you may read this by clicking here Golden Retriever Club of America - History My question is why should we adhere to the GRCA when they don't list the lighter colors as a standard color nor does the AKC accept these dogs in the show ring. Why are we expected to adhere to your guidelines? Here is the UK standard Index We get bashed over and over by American breeders because we have lighter colored dogs that have been a standard color since 1936 where the golden retriever originated from...... Have you forgotten your roots? Who made the Americans the authority on when and how and what color to breed.


I guess I will belabor this point even though it came from the beginning of the post. It doesn't make any sense to chastise the GRCA or American breeders for "forgetting their roots" Before 1936 cream was not an acceptable color for Goldens in the breed standard of the US or the UK, so the roots of the breed does not include cream dogs, at least as far as the standards goes. Then the UK standard changed to allow cream dogs because the breeders were producing them, however, the American standard did not change so American breeders continued to breed a darker dog. 

Given the quarantine that the UK had until a short time ago, American dogs did not have a big influence on the UK dog show circuit, but there has always been a notable inclusion of British dogs into the breeding programs of significant American breeders, but often it is the progeny of the imported dog that find success in the American show ring. For example my own Selli is descended from Camrose Betimmy a British import from one of if not the most famous British kennels. However, I have a feeling the only reason Cherie Berger got a dog from Camrose was because she was a very well established Golden breeder.

It does seem to me that the rise in popularity of "English Cream" Goldens is closely tied to the disintegration of the Eastern Block Communism and the spread of Goldens to that part of Europe, which I think is also tied to the European economic boom that occurred prior to the economic collapse of 2008. So many of the Goldens imported to the US come from countries where there were few if any Goldens before 1985.


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## White Sand (Oct 18, 2011)

Offspring of Can. CH. OTCH. Camrose Betimmy Am. UD, Am./Can. OS

Nice dog and I do love the Camrose lines afterall Joan is one of the beginning breeders in the UK. There was actually a Camrose dog imported to the US not too long ago. He is one handsome dog I can tell you that. We will hear more of him when he begins his show career in Canada. He has already passed his clearances and he has already begun showing here in the states. 

Now, how do I start another blog? I feel that we should remove from this one since we did not start it. I want to talk more about the lines here in the US and I want someone to help educate me. I am very familiar with the lines that are in Europe but not so familiar with the lines here in the US. I agree with Aneff and I also wonder why we call these dogs english, european, british etc. Aren't they just golden retrievers? I would love to learn as much as I can about both sides of the pond and educate myself further. Will someone start another thread so we can remove from this persons original post.....Or send me a message and tell me how....


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## hvgoldens4 (Nov 25, 2009)

Megora said:


> Jennifer - (this might be a dumb question), but after getting a mild-dysplasia rating from the OFA, can you have them redone and re-sent and get a Good reading? Or is that mild-dysplasia rating permanent?
> 
> I just wanted to say I appreciate White Sands being willing to discuss all this. Unlike another thread I was gaping at last night, I think she has shown herself to be somebody I'd be willing to work with if I didn't still have a slight concern about breeding on hip xrays done prior to 20 months and/or breeding prior to 24 months.
> 
> ...


You absolutely can have your boy's hips re-done and re-submit the new xray to the OFA. It is unfortunate, but I have seen some dreadfully AWFUL positioning on xrays and the OFA takes them and reads them and they usually do not pass. It would be much easier if they were sent back to the vet and asked for a better quality xray but they do not.

I would never suggest that you or anyone use a general vet to do an OFA xray. First, most of them completely anesthietize the dog which is not at all necessary. At most, only a mild sedative is needed. Second, they tend to not rotate the hip enough and make the sockets look flat. With proper positioning, these flat area's are not there. Many of them also don't have the dogs laying flat and the knees are not straight. All these things are not something you want to submit to the OFA as they can only read what they are given. 

If your breeder was not happy with the positioning and others have also looked at the xrays and thought they were not good, I would certainly re-do them. Our Sandy-CH Harborview Perfect Game was taken by her owner to her regular vet for xrays. Thankfully, she emailed me a copy of the before they were sent to the OFA. The positioning was dreadful. She was coming out here for the National when it was in Ohio and so we set up an appt with her with the vet who does all my xrays and has done them all for the last 15 years. She wound up being OFA good and I am sure that xray her regular vet took would not have cleared. I also had a very good friend get a re-submit on her girl when her regular vet did the xrays. She waited 6 months and went to someone who had experience with positioning dogs for the OFA and got an OFA good. 

I cannot stress enough that when it comes to OFA xrays, positioning is everything!!!


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## hvgoldens4 (Nov 25, 2009)

White Sand said:


> Pedigree: Cruft's Winner 2011, BOB Linirgor Mactavish
> 
> Pedigree: Sh Ch Ramchaine Green Glow By Fenwood 8 CC's, 5 BOB's, 7 RCC's Group 2 JW
> 
> ...


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

I agree, I had mine done at a specialist and they did not even have to use any type of sedative. They do them all the time. I also emailed a copy to my breeder before sending them to OFA. There is no way I would let my reg. vet do them.


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## Kmullen (Feb 17, 2010)

**Not my hips*** hehe


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

My goldens done under general anesthesia are OFA good's(and done by me, my husband , or a colleague). The one that is fair was with a sedative. I as a general practitioner can take fine OFA rads... In fact, I believe that OFA takes the sedation/anesthesia into consideration. I think that anesthesia/sedation puts hips at their worst and OFA takes that into consideration.


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## White Sand (Oct 18, 2011)

To HVgoldens4

Henric did judge at the GRCA Nationals in CO. Which dog won best of breed when he was judging? I would love to see photos. Mieke from the VD Beerse Hoeve Kennel was also in CO. My newest boy came from her kennel "Black Tie VD Beerse Hoeve". 

I did learn recently that the grooming was different here versus over seas. Well, there is only one thing left for me to do...educate myself on ALL of the golden retriever lines. So, I will start with the pedigree on the dog that Henric honored as BOB if you don't mind sharing his pedigree . Here we go again....I will bury myself in pedigrees again. My husband is not going to like this...When I start researching I become obsessed so to speak. However, I have decided that I want to know as much as I can about all goldens. I may need help guys!


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## hvgoldens4 (Nov 25, 2009)

White Sand said:


> To HVgoldens4
> 
> Henric did judge at the GRCA Nationals in CO. Which dog won best of breed when he was judging? I would love to see photos. Mieke from the VD Beerse Hoeve Kennel was also in CO. My newest boy came from her kennel "Black Tie VD Beerse Hoeve".
> 
> ...


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## annef (Feb 23, 2008)

I know that some dogs are shaved like setters but they should not be trimmed like that! They are trimmed yes but this craze Of trimming the neck very short and leaving all the hair over the breastbone came from Europe and is very ugly in my view.I often find when I am judging it is done to hide the lack of upper arm in the dog!! If you are a member fo the UK GRC look in the yearbook and you will see some extreme trimming and some dogs well presented.Annef


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## White Sand (Oct 18, 2011)

Hi HVgoldens4 and Annef,

I started a new thread just to get off of this one out of courtesy. I still have many questions re: upper arm and grooming and pedigrees if you will please help me.

Kind regards,
Kelly


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

I realize that White Sand has moved to another thread, but I read through this one and did not feel that some claims were appropriately challenged, as they are baseless at best.



White Sand said:


> I also believe that new puppy owners are becoming more educated about the health difference between the American lines and the English lines.





White Sand said:


> I actually copied and pasted my FAQ page from another breeder about 5 years ago with their permission and I have not gone in to edit into my own words. You have just inspired me to do so this week . I actually don't agree with those parts that you mentioned. I do agree with the cancer sections because the study comes from GRCA and UK. My links and info page is closer to my beliefs





White Sand said:


> As for the cancer debate I do know that there is less cancer in golden retrievers in Europe. Why, I don’t know.


It seems to me that you're basing your "European Goldens have less cancer" claims on the FAQ page you copied from another breeder and then removed from your site when folks pointed out how inaccurate it was. I've read that utterly misleading page on several "white Golden" breeder websites. It looks at two surveys, one done in the US and one done in the UK, years apart. The American survey reports higher rates of cancer as a COD, so to somebody who doesn't understand how survey research works, the claim "American dogs have higher cancer rates" might seem to hold water.

However, to infer that from those two surveys would be inaccurate. The surveys were taken with different criteria with absolutely no control for selection and sampling bias between the UK and the US groups. Indeed, neither was intended to be compared with the other. So when you hear that 60% of American dogs were eventually diagnosed with cancer vs. 40% of UK dogs (I forget the actual numbers offhand), you have no way of knowing if that's simply a result of the sharp rise in the use of veterinary cancer diagnostics in the US vs. the UK or if it actually represents a higher rate.

You also don't know what grouping of dogs were selected. After all, European imports living in the US would have shown up on the US survey and US imports to the UK would have shown up on that survey. The US also has an untold number of puppy mill, BYB, and HVB dogs that are bred without a thought for longevity; since those dogs are lumped together with carefully bred dogs in the American survey, there's no way to separate out the actual difference in cancer risk with a carefully bred American dog vs. a carefully bred European dog. The likelihood is actually that the hereditary risks are roughly the same, since the dogs all share a relatively small gene pool.

You may _feel_ that UK dogs are healthier in terms of cancer, but like the claim that UK dogs have lower rates of HD, which Rags picked apart so elegantly earlier in the thread, it's not based on any valid scientific or statistical evidence. It's just a convenient scientific _sounding_ claim an unethical breeder can make. So don't make it if you want to be seen as ethical.

After all, we're all desperate to lower the risk of cancer for our dogs, so we naturally grasp at straws. Just be aware that the "Euro dogs are at lower risk" claim is just as full of hot air as the hooey about magical snake oil supplements that cure cancer.


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## Megora (Jun 7, 2010)

> and then removed from your site when folks pointed out how inaccurate it was.


She said she didn't absolutely or completely agree with it herself, and she removed it. 

And she was willing to discuss these issues and seems very interested in showing dogs and improving her lines. That's matters, doesn't it? There are so many "breeders" who come on this forum to refute stuff said about their breeding programs, and they may be a lot more defensive, deceitful, or offensive in their responses.

The statement that all European lines do not have hip dysplasia or cancer _is_ incorrect (talking hip/elbow dysplasia with a breeder last week, she told me about a litter from a good breeder in Sweden that was put to sleep because the hips and elbows were that terrible). I don't remember exactly if this was a litter this breeder had purchased a pup from or if she knew somebody who had. 

But I do think that some breeders are adding European goldens to their breeding because they either like the look of the dogs (the big heads) and/or they believe there is a chance it would make their lines healthier.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

To the OP: I think the breeder seems to have been careless about implying that prelims are full clearances. I wouldn't necessarily run the other way over that, though I'd like to see the breeder correct the error on their website.

The "underage" dog debate has come up many times before on GRF. Many notable breeders in good standing with the GRCA (indeed, some of them even participated in creating or updating the CoE) have bred _male_ dogs on prelims between 18 and 24 months. Most do not do it regularly, but many have done it at last once. I once spent a couple of hours poking through pedigrees of notable winning breeders and was able to find many instances of males being bred in that window. However, it's important to note that I was not able to find a single male in these situations who passed prelims, was bred, and then failed final clearances. That doesn't mean it has never happened, just that I wasn't able to find a k9data/OFA record of it.

So it does seem that many influential breeders, right or wrong, do not observe that part of the CoE to the letter with their males.

As far as _female_ dogs, however, I haven't seen the same flexibility. That makes a lot of sense to me. By 18 months a male may have proven himself in the ring, passed prelims, and shown amazing potential. Breeding him offers no risk to his health and little to no interruption of his career. Not all bitches (and I'm basing this comment on input from experienced and breeders and vets I know) are ready for a litter at 18 months, even if they've passed clearances and proven themselves. In fact many knowledgable folks will tell you they've never seen a bitch who they felt comfortable breeding that young.

So it does give me pause to see a young bitch bred to a relatively young male. I wouldn't consider it a dealbreaker, and assuming Talini's being perfectly honest, those explanations would probably satisfy me. At 21 or 22 months, it seems perfectly possible that a particular bitch might be as physically mature as a typical bitch at 24. The litter might not conform perfectly to the CoE, but obviously serious steps are being taken both to prove the quality of the dogs and to protect the health of their offspring.

It's tough to be a breeder, particularly when you advertise litters online. It opens you up to lots of public scrutiny, some of which can become pretty harsh. We've had lots of breeders come on here and act with tons of class when criticized (as Talini is doing), and I think they end up looking a lot better in the long run than the breeders who go off the deep end with personal attacks, threats, and long, angry vendettas with the members who raise questions about their claims.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Megora said:


> She said she didn't absolutely or completely agree with it herself, and she removed it.


But she still repeats the claims about cancer throughout the thread. She obviously still agrees with that part, and I do not like to let that claim go unchallenged, since it's highly misleading and based on inaccurate information.



Megora said:


> And she was willing to discuss these issues and seems very interested in showing dogs and improving her lines. That's matters, doesn't it?


Hugely. I was interested in taking apart the claim about cancer, not passing judgment on White Sand.



Megora said:


> But I do think that some breeders are adding European goldens to their breeding because they either like the look of the dogs (the big heads) and/or they believe there is a chance it would make their lines healthier.


Absolutely, but I think any breeder who outcrosses is going to look for health, structure, and temperament characteristics they admire so they can bring those in. And maybe some breeders have bought the "less cancer" fallacy and are looking for that. But the existence of breeders who outcross with imported lines proves nothing about the claim that UK Goldens are at a lower hereditary risk for cancer.


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## White Sand (Oct 18, 2011)

I was very honest when I mentioned that I copied my FAQ page from another breeder. As for my beliefs on cancer may I just say I truly don't know. I have based my own thought pattern on what I have heard from other breeders. Now I believe that I must find my own beliefs. The points that tippykayak pointed out make perfect sense to me when it comes to the GRC and UK findings. Also, Annef pointed out that it could be enviromental. Who knows, it may come to the point that I put on my website that I don't believe the claims. I guess where I am going with this is that I am not in a position to make claims either way. In the future I believe it will be best for me to find my own way and not rely on what I hear. When you hear something over and over you begin to believe it so to speak. I think it is best to not believe everything that we hear. I told someone not too long ago when she approached me about a possible problem in a line that I don't go by heresay I go by facts. Also, there are many factors and problems can come from the sire or dam. I think sometimes people like to blame the stud when this is not always the case. Anyway, I going in another direction now but my point is I have learned from this thread that we need to do more research before forming an opinion and not to base your beliefs on what you hear.


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## White Sand (Oct 18, 2011)

tippykayak said:


> To the OP: I think the breeder seems to have been careless about implying that prelims are full clearances. I wouldn't necessarily run the other way over that, though I'd like to see the breeder correct the error on their website.
> 
> The "underage" dog debate has come up many times before on GRF. Many notable breeders in good standing with the GRCA (indeed, some of them even participated in creating or updating the CoE) have bred _male_ dogs on prelims between 18 and 24 months. Most do not do it regularly, but many have done it at last once. I once spent a couple of hours poking through pedigrees of notable winning breeders and was able to find many instances of males being bred in that window. However, it's important to note that I was not able to find a single male in these situations who passed prelims, was bred, and then failed final clearances.
> 
> ...


I just wanted to say thank you for this post. I only came on this site to let people know that Stacy is a wonderful person and she does have class. I tried to help but I think that I just made it worse. Stacy has always been there for me when I have had questions and I appreciate her very much. I have never met her but I hope that one day I get the chance. I myself bred my Hemingway at 19 months and he had a BVA score of 2:4. I felf confident that he would produce offspring with good hips. I base this on the Beerse Hoeve lines and her dogs usually do have good hips. My female was 22 months the first time that I bred her. I would never breed a girl at 18 months and if I do breed before 24 months it will be very close to the 24 months mark. I am considering changing to 24 months on my girls but I have not made that decision yet. I feel confident with BVA but like I said, I may change my whole mindset in the months to come.


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## JenniferJohnsonLovesGOLD (Sep 8, 2011)

Offspring of Intl' Show CH Break Of Dawn Ruby Tuesday

It doesn't look like Talini has goldens in K9data born before 1996 or according to her website, yet she has bred before without final clearances. She says her vet "approved" the breeding? What vet is going to tell their client "No, bad idea." They don't want to lose the future business.

And her friend Kelly Spivey (White Sands) who from k9data has only had dogs as listed on her website since 1998. I understand you don't have to show dogs or field trial them to breed. I just find it a little odd White Sands/Kelly Spivey giving advice and opinions when she admits she has very little personal experience or knowledge about standards and structure.

Reputable, longtime breeders take time to learn and get firsthand knowledge about health and why dogs are bred with final clearances, which clearances, reputable breeding practices, ethics, structure, showing, bloodlines, etc. 

As far as experience and when breeders in the US should breed, there is a huge population difference, both human and canine, and health information collected alone. I'm no statistics expert but just by looking up volume OFA has over 127,000 dogs on hip rads alone, vs over 32,000 of BVA. 

If you're going to breed in the US, don't expect to be called a reputable breeder when you don't follow the guidelines of the country you reside and do business in. Especially when you haven't been breeding a lot of goldens for 30 or 40 years. My 18 year old can legally drink in other countries, but that doesn't fly in the US.

These new "breeders" need to take a step back; respect the breed, their dogs, and future buyers who will be stuck with the progeny of these dogs they are without their final clearances. Hopefully for many years. There are dogs in rescue with drastic health problems, solely because their owners simply could not afford the hip surgeries, the allergy meds, etc. that are not the basic expenses a normal dog should have.

Jen


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

One more thought on the age question: I've come around more and more to the concept of using boys much later in life when feasible. A male dog can produce late in his life and actually after his death if the breeder does a little planning, and it gives you the advantage of knowing that the father had good longevity; no early cancer; joints that held up to a long, active life; eyes that never developed PU, and and even temperament throughout. My Comet was actually born around 6 months after his sire's death. Knowing that his father lived over 13 1/2 active years is very comforting to me.

Obviously, waiting so late isn't possible with bitches, though waiting until 24 months does tell you a lot. But with males, there's a unique opportunity to wait longer. Obviously, this wouldn't be possible in every situation, but I would like to see breeders take even more advantage of the opportunity to shepherd a boy through his whole life, evaluate the entire history of his behavior and health, and breed with that knowledge.

The disadvantage is that it takes over a decade to accrue that info, as opposed to 2-3 years, so you can't recombine DNA as quickly as with 24-month breedings. It also obviously involves a lot of expense and extra logistics, so I don't expect all good breeders to suddenly switch over. There also may be other disadvantages I haven't thought of. But I thought I'd throw it out there.


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## White Sand (Oct 18, 2011)

To Jenniferjohnsonlovesgold

Are you the same Jennifer Johnson that is a judge? How long have you been breeding and or showing if you are not the same Jennifer Johnson? If you are a breeder what is your website name? You seem to know a lot about golden retrievers and researching lineage to prevent health problems. I would be very interested in hearing your thoughts on what it takes to produce healthy lines. How does a breeder go about researching the lines? I guess I have been doing it wrong so please explain it to me. I also guess my reasoning for using BVA is wrong as well. What are your thoughts on BVA versus OFA?


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Not to belabor European Golden health vs American Golden health, but the BVA elbow scheme allows elbows with a rating of 1 (mild elbow dysplasia) to be included in a breeding program. And if you get on the GRCA website, there is a discussion on elbow dysplasia and how the percentage of dogs with elbow dysplasia is much higher in some European countries than here. I also thought that one of the forms of PRA was much more common in the European Goldens than their American counterparts.


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## Tahnee GR (Aug 26, 2006)

Sally's Mom said:


> Not to belabor European Golden health vs American Golden health, but the BVA elbow scheme allows elbows with a rating of 1 (mild elbow dysplasia) to be included in a breeding program. And if you get on the GRCA website, there is a discussion on elbow dysplasia and how the percentage of dogs with elbow dysplasia is much higher in some European countries than here. I also thought that one of the forms of PRA was much more common in the European Goldens than their American counterparts.


Yes, the PRA in European Goldens is PRA 1. And don't forget Sensory Ataxic Neuropathy in Swedish Goldens-although there is a DNA test for it now, and it has been traced back to one bitch from, I think, the 70's. I remember looking at Swedish pedigrees on a Swedish site, and it was fascinating to see the DNA test results for that disease.

PLoS Genetics: Sensory Ataxic Neuropathy in Golden Retriever Dogs Is Caused by a Deletion in the Mitochondrial tRNATyr Gene

And icthyosis which seems to affect more European pedigrees than North American. One breeder of English style Goldens is very open about her experiences with ichthyosis.

This is a great site:

goldendna.com

So, I don't think anyone can claim that their "line" of Goldens is free of genetic issues. Breeders need to understand the lineage and history of their Goldens, and take appropriate precautions before undertaking any breeding. There is no perfect Golden, line of Goldens or style of Goldens.


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## tippykayak (Oct 27, 2008)

Note that the real documented issues are by particular lines or are breed-wide, not divided by continent.


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## White Sand (Oct 18, 2011)

PRA-1 is a mutation discovered in Sweden. OptiGen - homepage headlines - genetic diseases in dogs - canine genetic testing - Ithaca, New York Optigen is a company here in the US that will test for PRA-1 and Icthyosis. As for PRA-1 you can have 1 parent normal/clear and none of the offspring will be affected in a mating. However, it is still possible that you will have offspring that will be a carrier. Of course this would not matter if all puppies were going to "pet homes" but should be taken into consideration if a puppy will be going to a show home. 

I had a thought in regards to breeding an American type to an English type. Say both parents are clear for PRA-1 and PRA. Pardon me, what is the correct term for the American type?) I believe it is PRA but please forgive me if I have this wrong. Anyway, if both the are normal/clear would you still need to test all of the spring for both types (PRA-1 & PRA?) I have been educated on PRA-1 but not the type for the American goldens. Just a thought and it may be a stupid question but I did wonder lol. 

Here are the links for PRA-1 and Ich. As I have stated my stud dog is normal/clear for PRA-1. Since I did not understand the whole concept of PRA-1 when I first tested now I have to test the rest of my dogs or at least test the offspring that I keep to make sure they are not carriers of PRA-1 if I don't test the females. My dogs are usually sold as pets only so really I need to concern myself with the offspring that I keep. 

OptiGen Ichthyosis (ICT-A) in GR performed by Antagene

GR PRA1 for Golden Retrievers

Anyway, if anyone knows the answer to my question re: the mating of the American type to the English type please let me know. Also, keep in mind I was taught no question is a stupid question when it comes to learning lol


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## White Sand (Oct 18, 2011)

I wanted to clarify why I asked the above question. I only have knowledge of PRA-1 and if you have two parents normal/clear then you will not produce offspring that will be affected or carriers. But, what if the mutation is different in the parents that you use? Meaning American to European.... my understanding is that the mutation is different. Please correct me if I am wrong with my thoughts.


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

Being a carrier of PRA 1 or PRAcd is only an issue IF you don't test and you breed carriers to carriers. I only mentioned what I did in regards to promoting the European type as being more healthy than what we have here in the good old USA. Before genetic testing, that made me stay away from dogs with European breeding...


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## Sally's Mom (Sep 20, 2010)

The answer, I believe is that you can optigen test for 2 different forms of PRA, but there are other manifestations of the disease....


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## White Sand (Oct 18, 2011)

ok thanks...


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